Please Stop Making Kickstarter MMORPG Projects

[@slackerdc]

You can't do a small scale MMORPG, the first M is massively. If you want to develop a game just do an RPG. A good RPG can lead to a MMORPG with a company that has the infrastructure to pull it off down the road.

[@MagicalMedic]

Independent developers should call what they're making mMORPGs. (micro) Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game.

[@TheSpeep]

The thing is, even just a simple single player RPG is already a monumental task to put together. Making things multiplayer, especially on the scale of an mmo, just multiplies the amount of work required for everything. Yet for some reason, it seems like everyone wants to do exactly that as their first project... Tbh, its kind of a red flag to me, because it shows a poor understanding of the sheer amount of work and resources it takes to get even a simple game out there.

[@goosegas2087]

@@TheSpeep Yeah, Deltarune is taking a long time to be made, and it isn't because Toby's lazy.

[@grantbooher7]

literally, mfs download Unreal Engine and suddenly think they can make the next star citizen

[@shadowlordalpha]

Sure you can. It's a coop rpg though

[@YaBoiJonesy]

Now I want a video where Kira only talks in his native accent.

[@oxymoron02]

He talks in his native accent; he just uses less British-English words.

[@lifewater]

Id like this too.

[@flynia]

Same here!

[@davidlevy706]

@@oxymoron02 He also mentioned toning down his accent.

[@eustacethemonk2176]

I gotta see this too lol

[@zh84]

It reminds me of when I got my nephew the Lego "Prehistoric Power" set for his Christmas. It made six different prehistoric animals, and of course he wanted to start with the biggest and most complicated ones. That would have been a recipe for tears, but I had great difficulty persuading him to start with the easy plans. He did eventually work his way up to the mammoth and the triceratops.

[@dondashall]

As someone who pretty much only buys indie games (with a few exceptions) I 100% agree. It's not a good idea for an indie dev not because of a lack of talent but a lack of money. This is one genre that you kind of need AAA money to be able to make and even then there's no guarantee it will be good.

[@ekki1993]

And even if it ends up being good, it can still fail because the maintainance cost of a proper MMORPG is so high. Which is why they all end up being bought by companies that turn the game into a p2w trap for whales.

[@dondashall]

​@@ekki1993 And there's only room for a handful of games at the top. See the recent news about all the failed live service games getting cancelled by AAA companies because they didn't make it. Some of these were apparently good but people don't have time to pour into multiple of them and will have to pick. This is just as true for MMOs.

[@ekki1993]

​@@dondashall Agreed. Really like the parallel with the failed live service games.

[@hungryhedgehog4201]

it doesnt even have to be an mmo, there are so many great multiplayer games out there from small dev studios with 0 players. It's sad to see games that just came out where you sit there and look and the gameplay and go "oh wow this is cool" and then you look on steamdb and it has 12 players in the last 24 hours meanwhile a game with a mostly negative rating has 140k players on steam alone cause it has CoD in the name.

[@dondashall]

@@hungryhedgehog4201 Have you read Laura Kate Dale's recent book? It's called "who hunts the whale" and is a hilariously funny satirical novel about the game industry focusing on the development of "Call of Shooty" highly recommend. But yeah.

[@grantbooher7]

as an game dev, i love your mindset. the industry has been suffocated with over-hyped promises that have clouded the work necessary to create games in the first place. we're in the soundcloud age of game development right now.

[@jonathanhughes8679]

It’s not about individual development but he’s telling them that it takes a group with lots of cash to make a AAA mmorpg.

[@silvervayne8749]

lol soundcloud age of game development, it's really the perfect analogy

[@severalwolves]

haha yeah, as a musician who lived through the soundcloud age of actual soundcloud, this analogy totally clicked for me. it’s cool that the tools and ability to publish your work have been democratized, but the process itself and necessity for growth get diminished, and it just becomes an instant gratification endeavor like everything else

[@Hauntaku]

Devs need to focus on creating games that have a clear vision and focus while also delivering something new or exciting enough for players to keep playing their games. I'm working on a rouglike where you and a partner venture into dungeons but if you get hit then you get kicked out of the dungeon. Only your partner can take down monsters/enemies. It's looking pretty sweet right now.

[@TheR6R6R]

I'm keeping that analogy. Thanks Grant Booher.

[@tomd1209]

If anyone ever says, "I think I can make the next big MMO", they need to be directed to Josh Strife Hayes channel immediately for a reality check. As someone who's played MMOs like WoW but is not an MMO guy, that channel was eye opening to me. Not only are there way too many MMOs, there are a shocking number of halfway decent ones out there with almost no one populating the servers. Seeing dead on arrival games like this one makes me feel profoundly sad, because I've no doubt that this dev spent a lot of time and effort making this game. There's nothing here to entice people to join it over any other MMO out there. Hopefully this will serve as a learning experience, and this person can pivot into smaller, more manageable games, rather than doubling down on this project.

[@Hauntaku]

IDK I think this dev's project could be successful if it had a clear vision. That's all it really needs. Wizard101 may not be a popular MMO but everyone knows about it.

[@tomd1209]

​@@Hauntaku I partially agree, the 'clear vision' bit is part of my point. As I said, there's nothing here to draw in an audience, even if he had funding for his game. If there were interesting graphics or mechanics he might be able to draw some funding from kickstarter or maybe find an investor. It's not impossible, but I would argue he needs a lot of help, and without interest and funding I doubt he's going to get it. My main point is that I totally understand wanting to build a groundbreaking MMO, but the field is absolutely flooded, and they're very hard to build and costly to maintain in comparison to an indie game that you can throw together in a month and earn a few bucks from.

[@felicityc]

@@Hauntaku Wizard101 is not popular? It's literally one of the most popular kids mmos there is. You are a very silly person I don't say kids in a bad way btw. It's even good on its own. It's just obviously intended for younger audiences

[@kagemushashien8394]

So, make an MMO but don't copy and paste from other MMOs, do your own thing, make your own story, try to create something "new" to the pool.

[@JennFaeAge]

Is there just some bizarre theory about Kickstarter MMOs that the next one will *definitely* be the one that works?

[@TheGhostFart]

It's basically the Gambler's fallacy in action

[@iamjustkiwi]

Small minded people who get high one night and think they have the BEST IDEA EVER, except they are just egotists who haven't been told "no" enough in life to live in reality, when plenty have had the same idea but stopped when they thought for 2 seconds of the insane impracticality of making a freaking online game, much less an actual MMO, MUCH less one that will actually be remotely competitive with the ones that already exist and are successful.

[@Hauntaku]

@@iamjustkiwi Meanwhile, Bendy and the Ink Machine did really well when people told the dev it'd be a commercial failure. Not me though! I told the dev, "I'm sure your game will be a massive hit! Just remember to keep a clear vision in mind for your game and turn the dial up to 11." is basically the gist of what I said.

[@seans8479]

While I agree that some slack should be given, it's 100% justified to point out that MMOs are NOT where beginner devs/indies should be doing. Especially with other people's money, and especially when the amount of money you're asking for will NOT be anywhere close to what you need. Kira's feedback, while it can be hurtful if directed at you, isn't coming outta no where. There's graveyards of MMOs developed by bigger companies. It's not easy making games. It's even harder making MMOs. Source: I moonlight as an Indie dev at my own small studio and work full time in the industry on an old MMO.

[@Hauntaku]

MMOs are dangerously challenging to build for even expert game devs but passion and originality can help push the game out into success. It's just very rare that a MMO succeeds without outside help.

[@FF-tp7qs]

Especially when the point of an mmo is to have multilayer, and if it fails, even if you are the one person who actually likes the product, if nobody else is playing it, or the devs give up on it and stop working on it, you are out of luck. At least with a single player game, no matter how poorly it performs commercially, once you've bought it, you can still play it if you like it, and not have to worry about it being discontinued.

[@CompletelyNormal]

How to make an MMO as an indie dev: Step 1: Make an action RPG Step 2: Repeat step 1 until you've mastered it. Step 3: Make an action RPG with multiplayer. Step 4: Repeat step 3 until you've mastered it. Step 5: Hopefully you have a lot of money at this point. If you don't, repeat step 3 until you do. Step 6: Now you're finally ready to start making your MMO.

[@Hauntaku]

Meanwhile Artix Entertainment not only did amazingly well at the start, they also have had many famous musicians cameo in their MMOs.

[@chubbeelee7356]

​@@Hauntaku having a very identifiable style definitely helps though. Also they did start with a ton of smaller scale projects most of which were left unfinished. Heck I'd say even their MMOs aren't finished. The character and writing of those games is charming. There is appeal in that, but let's not pretend that the gameplay is what kept people coming back to their works.

[@dico3557]

great advice from someone who has made nothing

[@RasakBlood]

Step 7: louse all your money because MMO games are expensive and the audience is way smaller then everyone assumes and they already pay for another mmo with years of content you can never compeat with.

[@hungryhedgehog4201]

If any new gamedevs read this, go do a gamejam, or 20. Not only will it teach you to improvise and learn the tools of your trade it also will teach you to adhere to expectations, timelines and deal with criticisms. Most of them are over a weekend or something so even if you got a fulltime job you can work a few hours on it. It's not even about making that one hit game that everyone wants but it's to get some experience and a portfolio you can show. And if after all that you still want to make a MMORPG, just don't.

[@Hauntaku]

My first game was a space-shooter which was alright but I decided to update it a bunch to fix all the flaws. Then, I tried making a flash style skateboarding game and it was so terrible that I later delisted it. I also had a mediocre tower defence type game with an interesting style and an indie horror game which I later cancelled. I have been working on a RPG for a decade now and it's become more of a roguelike which is good because I can feel it nearing completion. Two games I made purely as a joke which wasn't well-recieved and were very lame. It was like pac-man but you can't eat that many pellets. Trying a bunch of things and seeing what works is definitely a smart idea that this dev should try but it'd be cooler if they just release the MMO first and pray it does well. If it fails then it's just a thing they can learn from.

[@landru27]

@@Hauntaku I think it's great to experiment with different things like it sounds like you have. It's also key to not be deterred by failure. It all contributes to learning by doing. Indie devs and small, new teams need to do this. Larger, established teams can benefit from having experienced folks "on hand" -- but they got experienced the same way, or from mentoring under someone who did. And, there is at _least_ as much joy in building the game as there is in having built the game! Keep going; keep striving!

[@kikurie]

I've been getting guidance from a game dev friend and he told me how to outline everything and scoping it to keep my limits. I decided to watch some vids about advice from some other game dev as well. I wanted to make a indie combat turn based game (Using rpgmaker). What struck me was two things from vids: 1) Don't make your first game your dream game and 2) Make your first game at most 15 minutes to get your feet wet and know what your strengths are along with seeing where you need to improve. That stuck with me and I decided to do that instead. I keep sticking to a limit, and it's really giving me more creative ideas to work with that said limit. I've already got most of the core story down (ending included), now it's working on the script, and then the concepts. That enough already showed me it's a long road ahead just for a simple game (I want to make some of the assets myself ontop of it!) Being over your head on something massive as an MMO is honestly ignorant. It makes me wonder if they've delved deeper into the development of these games or just the surface level. Hoyoverses had to hire more people once Genshin Impact became a hit just to keep up with the constant updates. Square Enix doesn't have their numbers for FFXIV, but it's more than one person to churn out updates. Overall they both do similar to the same thing: Different teams for map formation/puzzles, side-quests, crafting, etc. Then the main team focuses on the MSQ.

[@dondashall]

Have you watched Mark Brown's series "developing"? He's making a game of his own, a puzzle game. It's in unity but there's surely a lot of insight for you. He made a lot of mistakes as it was his first time. And that's someone with the connections to get advice from big names in the industry.

[@kiarastaggs180]

@@dondashall Oh look there’s a reference to one of the KZbinrs I love and that I’m subscribed to 😄

[@pr0ntab]

You've been getting really good advice and I wish you good luck in your efforts. Another thing I would tell someone starting out is try to make something with a tight gameplay loop or a quirky gameplay concept and build around that. This helps you find the intended and unexpected fun in your own creations and is important to be able to grasp when your ambitions grow. Tight gameplay loops and simple concepts with depth are the things that separate pretty looking games from engaging games especially for solo or indie efforts, but it's a rule that still applies (but can often be forgotten) in AAA efforts

[@kikurie]

@@dondashall I will definitely take a look, thank you so much for the comment! I appreciate finding another source :D

[@Hauntaku]

My first game was a space-shooter and I've since rebuilt the game a few times since 2013. My final major update for the game will be ready by September and I finally got around to making the gameplay loop shorter, more enjoyable, and more challenging.

[@tethryss5001]

Wildstar is a perfect example of what even those who have resources to make an MMO do with the genre. Linear, hollow, early hype that dies before the game is even released and a withering community who see potential but fail to realize that most people don't want a unfinished product. To produce an MMO now, you need to come out with a game with just as much content as WoW or more for it to have people feel engaged. Nobody can do this though.

[@FirstLast-cg2nk]

Reminds me of Kingdom Of Amalur: Reckoning, honestly. The studio spent tons of time and cash trying to make an MMORPG before turning around and making an Action RPG instead. However, because 38 Studios wasted tons of money on the MMORPG idea before switching gears, the game they made, despite being commercially successful and well rated, needed to be making peak World Of Warcraft/modern Call Of Duty levels of money in order for the company to turn a profit... and it just couldn't. Even if the MMORPG had panned out and been published, they wouldn't have gotten the money needed to make back a profit for a simple reason. What do World of Warcraft, Final Fantasy 14, and Elder Scrolls Online have in common? They're built by well-known studios on top of existing IPs. Thus, an existing fanbase, a studio known for quality, and plenty of other projects in the works to provide capital if the MMORPG wasn't immediately successful. 38 Studios and Amalur had none of that, so even if the MMORPG was made, it would have, based on visual aesthetic, been considered a WoW clone, and WoW already had control of the market of people who wanted that kind of MMORPG. All of that was before the MMORPG market was so oversaturated. Now? An MMORPG like this one won't make it. Period. There's tons of Free To Play MMOs that are of far better quality than this. You can't make the next World Of Warcraft unless you've already got World Of Warcraft levels of money, a World of Warcraft level of production values, and a World of Warcraft level of hype to back you. To any and all hopeful game devs out there, heed this advice: Start smaller. Build an IP, build a following, make a reputation for excellence. Make a single player experieince that's fun and enjoyable. Before you try and make something big like an MMO, make something smaller, saner, and easier to accomplish. Just like how oak trees start out as acorns, even Blizzard started out with much smaller projects before they created WoW.

[@keachweder6217]

Amalur was such a dope game

[@SquareGlade]

As an indie game developer myself, I completely agree with you. You can be creative in your idea but you need to keep the scope somewhat realistic for you to ship it in a reasonable amount of time. I think that your projects can become bigger and bigger with each one, but before starting a bigger project you should have shipped the smaller one first.

[@Hauntaku]

Around 10+ years ago I started working on a RPG and I still haven't finished it lol

[@lunaliciousgeek]

It's like people have never heard of feature-creep. You can't include every feature and expect the labor needs/timeline to not inflate massively as well

[@TheElitedeath]

The key phrase being reasonable amount of time, I'm sure someone sufficiently autistic enough could do some crazy things if they dedicate 30 years of their lives to it, Dwarf Fortress style (but hopefully by someone who can make better visuals than ASCII art). Well either way as a fellow indie game dev myself I'd have more respect for the person spending 30 years to develop a dream project vs those KZbin videos you see sometimes titled "Making my DREAM game" and then the game they're making is really low-scope and clearly just being made because they thought that was a realistically achievable final product and not actually because it was their dream lol.

[@fyisic]

A little bit of delusion is good as a developer since it can motivate you to "go for it". But there is a limit and game development will always take longer than you expect. Starting with a small game and increase scope of games you make gradually is the way to go.

[@velsia123]

but logically what makes you think making a new mmo is harder than making a new ''normal game''? mmos are just literally normal games + an online server, it is not the ''hardest genra of game out there'' it is as hard as you make it. You can start with a small mmo and update it as you go you don't need to release 100 hours of gameplay all at once.

[@GlitchboyDJ]

@@velsia123 Why would a massive amount of people pay for an unfinished MMO? It is absolutely the hardest genre out there. The amount of content you need to pack into an MMO is massive. The idea is you have to keep people's attention long enough for it to matter that there are other players. Nobody wants to login to a single player experience, collect some boar asses and logoff without interacting with any other players.

[@velsia123]

@@GlitchboyDJ pretty much million of people want to do that, ever heard of runescape? literally in the top 3 most played mmos

[@Heathy87]

the tools have probably reached the point where even unskilled ppl can crank out basic games many single devs have pushed out decent games, but they do tend to lack in one area or another, a single person can get good at programming or modelling or animation or sound design but not all of them at the same time. I think today you could create an mmo with a small team but it would still take you 5+ years to crank something out that could compare to say, everquest or classic wow but you're already behind the curve at this point. the time it would take and whether or not it actually ends up being as fun as those games is another question. would it pay for itself or just fizzle out, the true test of an mmo is whether or not you can keep your playerbase engaged because if they reach end game and there is nothing to do they'll quit in droves. if you want ppl to pay a sub for your game, its going to have to be worth it, vs all the other games that want you to pay a sub, hell it needs to be better than all the f2p games.

[@Paull2]

Reminds me of La La Land. "A bit of madness is key."

[@stevent9612]

I shudder to think how difficult making an MMORPG would be. Thinking about testing and documenting netcode gives me a headache let alone writing it.

[@Bulborb1]

It's like trying to build a skyscraper instead of a house, possibly with a house budget, or less...

[@elhazthorn918]

With the experience of building scale model buildings.

[@hammerofscience534]

I love how Billion dollar companies can't crack the MMO formula, but Joe Nobody is going to do it for 1400 dollars. 😂😂 Make a Valhiem or Vampire Survivors then will talk.

[@Ithirahad]

Billion dollar companies are barely even trying. They just chased trends for the most part, maybe adding their own extra dose of greed, then acted surprised when people lost interest within a month or year of their product's launch.

[@Caydiem]

@@clumpofclumps Archeage had a legitimate shot at cracking the MMO-code and then the devs went along and literally goatfucked themselves into obscurity with their MTX-dumbassery.

[@mitrovarr]

@@clumpofclumps I mean, I could see that still happening. Big companies make stupid decisions that are just throwing away money all the time.

[@needoriginalname]

I remember for our game development capstone project for college, we discussed about making our game Online Multiplayer (not an mmo) instead of single player. And We realized its too complex to finish it in the time allowed. When it comes to MMO, you have to really be away of the game state and how to sync it between players and how to handle networking issues. What should or shouldn't be synced? How do I deal with conflicts between clients? How do I handle network lag? And when it comes to MMO, how do I handle 1000s of clients when they could be no where near each other? And there are perhaps alot more questions that even I haven't considered that need to be answered before you can even make a concept design. And I that isn't even touching on security and support stuff.

[@Hauntaku]

This is why devs typically start with a skeleton project

[@UberGrunk]

As an aspiring(/wannabe) indie dev myself I can kind of understand his point of view. You get very proud of whatever it is you've created because of how far you've come and how much work you've put into it. The difficult part is to realize that other people will rate your creation in comparison to what else is out there, not how much effort you've put into it

[@riptors9777]

*wanna be dev* : "Im gonna do a mmo! Pls gib kickstarter moneyz!" Kira: "Stop it.... get some help..."

[@Billy.Bacsko]

Too many indie devs can't even make a compelling 2min combat loop, much less an entire world. Create a fun play mechanic then expand from there. If you can't create 2 min of fun, then you need to go back and start from there.

[@TheBronzeDog]

By all means, be creative, but keep your ambitions reasonable. If you don't have experience, start small and focus on something simple you can deliver. Try to stay close to a minimum viable product to avoid increasing scope while you're learning. Build up a portfolio to raise confidence in people you want to work with as well as investors.

[@williambeckert7396]

As an american I really appreciate your hard work in translating for us, Kira.

[@TheSpeep]

3:50 Honestly, its not even about not being good enough to make something like this. An mmo, any mmo, is just a project of such a massive scale that it is not realistically possible to make by yourself. You might be a very skilled programmer, artist, writer or animator, but you cant be all of those at once, nor can you do all of those jobs at once. You are just one person, you cannot by yourself do the amount of work it takes entire teams to do, which is what a project like this takes. Edit: I'd like to add to this, if everything shown in this video was indeed made by just one person, that is actually very impressive. Its clear a lot of work has gone into this project, no doubt, but really, it just doesnt look that good...

[@Hauntaku]

My guess is they started like how Artix Entertainment did with AQWorlds - they bought a skeleton and added to it over time.

[@B0ombastix]

That dude totally wrote his kickstarter descriptions with ChatGPT. The way it summarizes with ‘Overall’ and describes the ‘developers’ (plural when there is only one) in third person is a dead give away.

[@aeroosprey]

Some people are under the impression that anything is possible through determination and sheer force of will. While that is true in some cases, other times you risk burning yourself out to a crisp by forcing yourself to achieve the impossible and failing to meet your expectations. It doesn't matter how much you dream about being a pilot and how long you study for it, if you don't have 20/20 vision, it's not gonna happen.

[@Hauntaku]

Fly as close to the sun as you possibly can and though your wings may burn off, the sight from above will have been worth it.

[@theonegunslinger21]

so looking at their created projects this is their 4th time trying to make this game, the 1st one being in November 202, march 2022 as a crypto mmo, November 2022 again this time without crypto, and now again in march 2023, the best part of this is that the crypto one got one backer for $1

[@felicityc]

yikes

[@jameslake7775]

I work in a different field, something where you provide a customer a physical item rather than software, but I feel like I've seen the same thing happen a number of times with new entrants seeing dollar signs and wanting to leap right into the deep end. The product in this field is conceptually fairly simple. The idea isn't new. You can even DIY it. Some people start companies focused on what they've identified as an undeserved niche, tap into the supply chain of existing players for help with logistics, and hire experienced people from the field who can navigate the regulations. A few of these have grown into decent sized players in their own right, some have stayed niche, many have folded. Sometimes major players in the field launch a company to focus on a specific subset of the field or try something more experimental without the big name attached. A number of these have failed too, because despite the financial and logistic backing of their parent they just don't take off in the market. Producing a new entry that's targeting a high-volume part of the market and is competitive on price and quality, regulation compliant, and sustainably profitable with a novice and/or undersized team is statistically near-certain to fail, based on history. Passion alone is not enough to jump into the deep end, and MASSIVE established players are already fighting over that space.

[@Hauntaku]

Meanwhile MapleStory 2 failed even though MapleStory classic is still successful.

[@sinjin8576]

"New MMO" in 2023 rings now like a used car salesman trying to sell you a used shitbox

[@yyeezyy630]

I always love when non Americans talk about Americans like they lived here. Our countries so big and diverse that we have multiple accents in our country lol

[@westernbrumby]

There’s a kindness in speaking the realities to those that need to hear it.

[@MykoMethod]

I find it bizarre that the dev for this game implemented a purchasable currency via paypal (so they can buy coin from themselves) before implementing basic NPC animations or anything for them to actually enjoy or progress towards when they play the game. As you said, if they're happy with it then more power to them, but the priorities of what the game actually needs, and the things the dev is actually putting their time into seems to be all over the place. Which as a hobby or a learning experience is absolutely fine, but not as an actual marketable project you want others to invest in.

[@Valenvenge]

dancing animation is more important than a sword swing animation or any other more important stuff

[@Hauntaku]

Well, the game is probably gonna launch for free so they wanna make money somehow. Guilds being premium makes sense imo. The payment stuff can be tricky to implement or they're using a skeleton project like Artix Entertainment did for AQWorlds. Starting with a base and adding onto it is a smart idea.

[@Hauntaku]

@@Valenvenge They could be using a skeleton project or maybe they understand that dancing is harder to animate than a simple slash with a particle effect.

[@girlville]

i feel like he should just continue with this, but like, remove the funding aspect and just treat this specific project as a hobby. even if it flops, he could probably learn a lot about making games and specifically MMOs - he probably has learned a little already, even if he has just edited an asset pack or whatever - and he won't have a potential future audience of people mad at him for not delivering something over a long period of time and eventually cancelling the project. he won't, though

[@StickmanStrozzi]

why do some indie devs just jump straight into mmos? doesnt make any sense

[@dondashall]

Arrogance. And the fact that they're not using their own money for dev cost so no incentive to keep things in perspective.

[@ekki1993]

Because it's a genre where it's extremely easy to imagine something better than all existing offers. It's also a massive noob trap for game developers because most people can't conceptualize the unspoken risks and costs of creating and maintaining a proper MMO.

[@RingshadowCat]

As an American I'm interested in hearing your true accent! And honestly, I think Americans do get accents but we're used to a different range of accents. European accents aren't super common through the States, besides maybe French Canada if you're in the Great Lakes region. But a Hispanic accent? Yeah, we're used to that. And also some accents out of Asia and the Pacific Islands depending where you are. And that is kind of the ultimate bottom line. If you're in New York you're going to have a lot greater diversity than, you know. Kansas. We're not close neighbors with a dozen other nations with different languages. Canada speaks English and French, Mexico speaks Spanish, and there's whatever native tongues are around. that's... kinda it.

[@jankostrhun8725]

Well that's why you are in general bad at accents native speakers with regional differences are one thing. Them bloody foreigners who often use totally different approach to the basic diction and vowel structure is just harder without prior experience. To a degree American and European experience is a bit like tossing light weight into heavy weight league with minimal warning.

[@davidlevy706]

Also, some British terms are merely less common (not unfamiliar or different in meaning) in American English. _Trousers_ is a good example. We're much more likely to say _pants,_ but _trousers_ receives a fair amount of use. Given that _pants_ refers to underwear in British English, I prefer the unambiguous _trousers_ when conversing online.

[@OnionManSteve]

I think what a lot of Americans don't understand is that, while there are definitely different accents across the USA, the range in them is nothing compared to what's found in Europe. It's just residual from how long people have been 'settled' in Europe compared to the USA, and not really a criticism, just a fact of life.

[@jacobsteele925]

Maybe its the state I'm in America but I have heard and understood alot of different accents like cuban, mexican, Brazilian, Canadian, french, Russian, Serbian, indian, Australian, Italian, Bosnian, Korean, Laos, Philippine, vietnamese, creol, southern, Japanese and probably a few others. I've strangely never ran into anyone with an English accent but its not been to hard to understand the only thing I've ever had a hard time with was the lingo different cultures use, but when put into context you get it.

[@Nurr0]

100% chance that clan thread URL feature turns into a security vulnerability.

[@cauldronofstardust]

It’s not the dev being delusional that we should be taking umbrage with. If she/he/they wants to try & ultimately fail, that’s fine by me. What IS a problem is failing on another person’s dollar. Don’t be asking for money from other people in return for providing them something that you’re incapable of giving to them. THAT’S the problem here.

[@spaceturnip6917]

At first glance, this game immediately made me think that I had seen it before, and I had! Look at Josh Strife Hayes' video about Dreamscape Dimensions. This MMO is visually the same as that one.

[@Beeegdix]

Hey man, American accents cast a giant web. Hawaiian Pidgin, Cajun, Appalachian and California are all super different dialects based all around American English and it’s nearly impossible to understand all of them at once

[@ZeoHidra]

Not only is he an indie dev, he's a solo dev. A solo dev can do a lot, just look at Cave Story, but a good MMO is a lot more than a lot.

[@Hauntaku]

Yeah, they need 2 computers to test latency and other things

[@benjaminmatheny6683]

The problem isn't them trying to make a game far out of their reach, the problem is them wanting other people to finance them doing so. You want to make an MMO with no experience on your own dime? Go have fun! I am sure you will learn a lot and probably get much better at game dev. But don't sell it to people as a viable product. It's a personal learning experience, nothing more.

[@rafindeed]

Im not completely aware of all tech stuff that he did, but as a art director in a small studio, this dude clearly have skills that could be improved working on a studio to acquire experience necessary to one day build his dream game.

[@Kmwildride]

Hi Kira, I'm from deepest darkest Manchester and deal with Americans on the phone all the time and found that they love speaking to me with my Manc accent.

[@terrykirk6098]

This is using a kit called uMMORPG, the same kit that Naica used. It's a good kit, but it needs a lot of work to make anything good.

[@Mac_Omegaly]

8:25 I spent 6 years in London England as a lad. I picked up a mid Atlantic accent. On my way home leaving England and moving back to PA I had people in the airport in Heathrow call me out as American. Yet everyone I spoke to in PA said I had a British accent. Lol

[@sindraalthewolf9256]

I have never had any problems understanding the European vocabulary, I feel like it's just using what we consider the "older" english words but I feel like someone would know most of these if they bothered with expanding their vocabulary... As it stands now, everyone knows less words, spells worse, and grammar no longer exists >.

[@fudalefu1]

As an American, I appreciate the translation of trousers to pants.

[@rasmie8858]

To be fair this is more than what Chronicles of Elyria has so far

[@hexlart8481]

I'm an aspiring indie dev and over the course of working on my projects I've learned a ton about maintaining a realistic expectation of what I can actually accomplish. Its incredibly important to understand especially going into a new project that you are not going to be able to make your dream game, and to set realistic goals and expectations. Making an MMO is certainly beyond the ability of most indie devs. Especially without experience and money to back them up.

[@Hauntaku]

I made my dream game a long time ago which was a space-shooter. It was good enough to pass my school assignment and then I constantly updated it over the years. The last update is scheduled for this September and will completely revamp the gameplay loop, graphics, music, and difficulty. It's FINALLY my dream game complete. Now for my next one! The RPG turned roguelike!

[@MrHappyStoner]

Now we need to hear the real Kira

[@Lonit-be]

I'm French and have always understood you perfectly, Kira. I'm about you doing a video in your native accent where you don't hold back, lol.

[@Hauntaku]

IDK it looks fine to me but does need about 3-5 more years of development or at least an overhaul to the code and graphics. I'd love to try it out as long as it's not cr-pto related. If I could play as a cute warrior and ride my dragon into battle then that'd be pretty sweet. Maybe there could be areas where you need a squad of players working together to beat the boss? This game certainly has potential, but it lacks a clear vision. It's lacks identity. It looks like a standard mobile MMO and that's not too bad, but it's gonna struggle unless more time is put into it. The dev is probably not well-known either but that didn't stop Artix Entertainment from creating AQWorlds (which is still popular in some regions even though it's older than a decade and AQ3D is their newest MMO which is actually not doing as well as AQWorlds surprisingly enough)

[@felicityc]

AQ3D was not very good. It is cute and I found it cute to be reminded of some of the old stuff I played, but AQ (battleon itself) was very unique and had a lot going for it, and wasn't nearly on the scale of this. It also came out in a time when this was a lot more justifiable- which is why 3D did not work. It tried to re-up the same gimmicks but all it really had going for it at this point was nostalgia quality. AQ itself came out and I played it some 20 years ago, and browser MMOs were much more justifiable then. It had quirky humor and fun, stylistic hand-drawn graphics. Literally nothing about AQw or AQ3D or anything that made AQ good (Mainly that AQ had updates literally every week with new content- that was one of the biggest things it had going for it, and the creators held onto that for a LONG time). Artix is extremely well known in that regard. They are no comparable games or situations. This game has potential like an empty sandbox does. There is just no need to be endlessly supportive of things like this, because they are all the same. The dragon is just a mount like any other game. Groups and bosses, literally every other mmo. It's not doing anything new, which is what people have to deliver on. A cute project does not make a game. So they have to do something interesting: too many developers end up aiming too high. Either they have to stick to basics and lower their expectations or drop the mmo part entirely and make a more unique, but focused game. Doing both is what people make the mistake of running into.

[@chemputer]

Back in 2021 I messaged him, and basically asked him a bunch of questions about why he put "the game will be challenging in various ways such as quests and mobs" in the "Challenges" section he respondec with "I'm putting in plenty of effort" then eventually responded saying that he didn't know anyone took it (Kickstarter) seriously, said that since he wouldn't raise 500k everyone would get their money back (ignore the fact he doesn't give a fuck that he had no plan if he actually got the money) and said he had no plans to build an MMO. His name isn't even Joshua Johnson, he lives in Saudi Arabia, not doxxing the kid but just do a reverse image search on his image and it's got his Facebook for a Saudi kid. It's just deceitful in so many ways it's sad.

[@b3games146]

Americans deal with a more range of accents then anywhere in England. We have a wide range of accents in a single town. I deal with asians middle easterners hispanic from a plethora of different places and indians all with deep accents. Go to England and maybe two large citys are that diverse

[@DemonicAkumi]

My question on the url part. Do all guilds need to have one or was that optional? Because I can see that being a put off for many people if this ever became a thing.

[@HahaGuitarGoBrrr]

as if anyone's ever going to play it lol

[@DemonicAkumi]

@@HahaGuitarGoBrrr I mean I'm still talking as an "if" in general. Pretty sure it'll never be made, but whatever ideas he's thinking of still needs a bit of questioning. Like Cryptoland. We knew it would've died, but still had questions that wanted to be answered.

[@LlibertarianGalt]

Same as: I have no experience as a rocket scientist. I'm going to crowd fund an entire space exploration project before building a working rocket.

[@FF-tp7qs]

This game reminds me of a game I bought for pc years ago called dungeon lords, where half the options on the character creator didn't function, some of the class abilities like dual wield were useless. There was no minimal so if you went off the road you could never find your way back, and even on the road if you changed the camera during a fight, you would go all the way back to where you started, and the game was just unfinished.

[@IamDrSpock]

Game Developers who watch Kira saying "Reality? On MY internet? Oh no no Kira, on MY internet reality doesn't apply!"

[@attckDog]

As a dev, I stand by your point of view totally. Build a small single player game first on your own dime. Build up a team. then try a simple multiplayer game Not an MMO.

[@apu_apustaja]

Yeah but... content. **wink**

[@AZodiacCancer]

As an American I can confirm we are bad at accents. If he really wants to make it online make it a single player game with coop options. Start small and then go big. Get your name out there, get a reputation and get a fan base.

[@FranNyan]

If you've made a working game with multiplayer that has a good enough playerbase that it's sustaining itself, maybe THEN you can start on an MiniMO. But only if you have a large team and good established cashflow...

[@DawryMike]

Why can't these people just make regular indie RPGs? They always pick MMOs, the hardest type of game to develop. It's like an architect trying to build an entire city with a few buddies.

[@Atlas_FGC]

As someone working into being an indie dev I trust everyone else trying to be one about as far as I can throw them.

[@Temperans]

I always see it like this with anything regarding creating: If you can't even make the most basic thing, why the heck are you charging for something 10x more complicated? It's not just video games that fall for the same trap of "I am going to make this super complicated thing in a market I have never done before". Almost every time unless they spend millions it just doesn't pan out.

[@Hauntaku]

There's a plushie company(?) that's working on their first video game and it looks awesome. Puffpals Island Skies! Such a great title and the gameplay looks beautiful. I'm gonna play it at some point! To my knowledge, that company has never made a video game before.

[@Enclave.]

Not only is something like Pantheon best in class for the old MMO's for that community that wants that? It's also a game that has a whole heck of a lot of funding coming from outside of crowd funding. I suspect Pantheon will eventually release, won't be for me but probably will release, but holy cow it's not because of crowd funding. They used crowd funding as a way to show the people with the actual money that there's enough of a market to be worth risking a real investment on.

[@briochie]

It's so much fun to have big ideas, and much harder to put them down. It sucks. I've been there, and met a number of people getting into game design that have been there, too.

[@SoundBubble]

If you want to make an MMO as a sort of exercise there's nothing wrong with it, but once you expect people to pay for it, you should be prepared for them to not just cradle you in your own delusions because they'll expect a product that's worth to buy.

[@Hauntaku]

For now it seems like guilds are the only premium feature. I can see some people buying that just to hang out with their friends. It'd be like Active Worlds though and that MMO is well... empty.

[@SoundBubble]

@@Hauntaku I think you misunderstood. I'm not talking about monetisation past release, that's a whole different matter. What I mean is that he wants $35k to make this game in the first place.

[@SCVM45]

The asset pack is UMMORPG btw.

[@alcoyot]

Maybe a better idea would be to make a 2d Zelda like game, with a very big well designed world. And then, if it seems successful, expand that to a multiplayer game.

[@Hauntaku]

The should make a game like Oceanhorn which did exceptionally well and then improve upon that later on

[@richardg8376]

Implementing a functional melee system for your ARPG will likely take around a week to implement. Fixing the bug that causes your character to get stuck and unable to attack if you block too quickly after starting an attack will take you 3 weeks to debug, fix, and test to confirm it definitely doesn't happen any more, and nothing else was broken in the process. Inexperienced devs always focus on the first paragraph, and never even consider the second. That is why they always end up canning the project once they realise that the project will take 4x longer than planned and 75% of it is soul-crushing bug fixing, refactoring code and laboriously testing. Now imagine that for an MMO, where you also expect hundreds of players to play together without things lagging or fucking up.

[@Hauntaku]

This is why there has to be a room limit

[@Feinei]

The most underestimated aspect of MMOs and why I'll never make one is simply security. If you don't have a relatively large team of very experienced programmers, and you decide to make an MMO of any scope, even a small 2D one, you're opening yourself up for massive headaches, sleepless nights, ton of financial liability with potential lawsuits from customers who got screwed over. If you, the one reading this, are an aspiring dev and want to do multiplayer games - just go the co-op route. Things where people can host their own dedicated servers. It's a massively winning model

[@Xeit]

Starting to create MMORPG without prior experience is just like trying to create nuclear power plant without creating any smaller energy generator first. It can work but there is higher chance for huge disaster.

[@neoteraflare]

Dwarf fortress, which is a really complex game started as a 1 z level game where mutants were just digging on that one level to find mithril. Kinda like Dome keeper's digging part looking for the relic. Then they enhanced the game slowly adding by more and more feature.

[@DemoNova]

I believe in you Kira! If anyone can beat Michael Jordan's records, it's you. 🏀

[@LKLM138]

Ok now I need a video of Kira going full video wiht his normal accent. No need to be long video lol

[@prettyshortshorts]

8:00 is it the "in'it"?

[@dekoldrick]

In all honesty, I don't mind people giving something a try if it's above their capabilities. It's a learning experience that will humble you eventually and you might gain something out of it for a less ambitious project. The issue is people looking to strike it rich but lack the technical skills and know how to pull it off. Setting themselves up for a massive failure and a destroyed career before it even starts playing with other people's money.

[@TheGrimGary]

Having been in their shoes before, though I didn't want to make an MMO...rather just a hosted multiplayer rpg on the same level as say Minecraft I understand that they have big ideas and big dreams, perhaps even the skills. But the time, resolve and resources just aren't there for a first time, single dev or small team to follow through with completion of a large project. It's fine to pursue these dreams, but it isn't reasonable to ask for money for them at their stage. And no one should trust them to be able to do it. Luckily. I was able to pay most of the people back that funded my project. It only got 3k. I think my biggest contributor was Notch of minecraft fame who put $500 in at the time (before the sale of MC itself). What I would suggest to these devs is to try to do it without Kickstarter for a while. They will soon see how complicated the project gets outside of prototypes. Rebuilds of entire code bases are enough to kill most teams off because of the drudgery of redoing work already done. It's not impossible to do this, given todays tool. It is highly improbable and likely to fail a few months in.

[@Mightydoggo]

I feel the Americans when it comes to accents. Despite myself speaking a very local dialect, I still sometimes have problems understanding others. I have Dutch friends I can understand better than most of my older relatives from Bavaria. lmao

[@DirtCheapFU]

The whole accent thing, is such a hilarious and sometimes absurd point of contention. I used to travel and people would dumb down their slang and terms for me to understand. I always tell them that are plays with accents so intense, you would think they were speaking another language. Or a slang that when you understand it, you feel like deciphered a coded or dead language. Like, WIsconsin, the more Northern Central you go. You will start hearing this blend of french and polish. Or in Texas, theres a time locked community of German immigrants who still speak with heavy German accents social through olde German language. Not a typo... "olde" to emphasize. Theres a interesting docu-vid on youtube about it.

[@cosmic_zoan]

Really enjoy the chilled second channel vids Kira. Keep em coming

[@jasonjones7461]

I'm good friends with an indie dev that makes games for Nintendo. He actually released the very last "3ds" game on the north American eShop. I 100% agree with you. It's very difficult just to make a commercial retail size single player game of quality on your own with no real resources. Making an MMO RPG is just foolish without resources and experience. My friend is an incredible game developer imo And he has done amazing things with very few resources and flawed game engines. Talent and creativity can only take you so far.

[@watsonwrote]

People should be thinking about "Minimally Multiplayer" online games instead of Massively Multiplayer ones. Maybe once they have some experience making games a few people can play together they can consider other things.

[@ignisspiritus6392]

I’m from the US and I know what Trousers are. My grandparents used to say it. Over here Trousers is an old term from back in the day. Actually I’ve heard quite a few British terms that are actually used here in the US also. Idk it’s weird people in the UK seem to think there words are only used there. A lot are but a lot are also used in the US also. 😁

[@jayvan4353]

There is that guy from the Netherlands I believe Syrsa(something like that) he made a pretty decent game. And the mmo SWG was originally created with 3 dudes in a beach bungalow in a week.

[@UnityMMODevelopers]

Without seeing the code base It's hard to know if he did anything custom or not but that's the uMMORPG Game Kit for Unity with a reskinned GUI. The game systems look fairly standard with maybe some free or Paid addons from the uMMORPG Community.

[@thelightwielder]

the hardest thing about accepting criticism is not taking it personally. Even with how much easier it is to make game is things like UE5, trying to make a single player game is hard enough, let alone a multiplayer, and he want's to go straight to an MMO?

[@asherv3914]

I personally think that it depends on the goal of the game developer. MMOs are one of the biggest game genres in the industry when it comes to required knowledge to make. I do think that you have a bit of a harsh outlook but overall it just a realistic view as you said. If someone wants to try and make an MMO to see what they are capable of and where they need to grow that’s fine. Having the view that I’m going to make the next best MMO is too dream focused and doesn’t have many roots in reality. Having a mix of dreams and realistic views is required when going into this field.

[@jackawaka]

For the entire time I watched this trailer, I was wondering "What's interesting about this game and why aren't they showing me it", there wasn't any hook or design focus that other games havent done

[@GloryOfBarbelo]

what a massive Johnson

[@Schtiffles]

Well, at the very least he's learning a lot of programming skills.

[@dougray30]

"The world needs ditchdiggers too" - Judge Smales

[@dougray30]

Seriously though, it's a fine line. I think you do a good job of saying "look, if you want to do this as an exercise or because you enjoy it, do it...but if you think this is going to become a game that grows in popularity, forget it."

[@gabler7992]

let me tell you, as a guy whos doing manual labour I see less and less people who can properly use simple tools like a shovel 😂

[@ekki1993]

@@dougray30 But that's the issue with publishing the game on kickstarter. It's definetly going past the line.

[@dougray30]

@@ekki1993 I disagree, in these times there's no shot it gets funded at the level he is asking for. Maybe it will be a small dose of reality.

[@dougray30]

@@gabler7992 My plumbing skills come way more in handy in my life than any of my other skills.

[@kanym8111]

the moment where you speak about accents. I'm really happy that you speak with less accent because you can target people like me who aren't native english speakers. Like I dont have to concentrate while listening to you so yeah, im greatful

[@muajin]

I believe Kira is working on an mmorpg kickstarter too.

[@justanother8862]

my dream game running around in my underwear

[@Lagbeard]

The biggest fault of most crowd funded games is terrible project management and unrealistic expectations from the devs. Some people want to try to do a AAA quality game for under 100K USD... They don't understand how long it takes to make a game or how much it costs, so they end up asking for way too little money and then as they keep hiring a ton of people to do work on it, the money ends up running out well before they have an actual product to even put out.

[@micksmith1812]

It's funny you brought up the accent thing, a judge on Strictly Come Dancing said she has great difficulty with Northern accents in the UK and she speaks 5 languages 😅🤣😂