Point Buy Vs. Rolling: Ability Scores in 5e Dungeons & Dragons - Web DM

[@WebDM]

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[@historyaddicted3471]

Web DM your stats could be worse i play 3rd edition orc rolled all ones and ended up with 2 intelligence but a 24 strength

[@anonanonymous1988]

What about standard array? Every game I have played was standard array.

[@quonomonna8126]

i run a table at the local game store so we do point buy/standard array to keep everything fair

[@SergioLeRoux]

Anyone remember playing those old D&D computer games, where you just hit (R)eroll 256 times until you got the 6 stats you wanted?

[@robmongar7933]

You could actually just change them to max :)

[@SergioLeRoux]

Rob Mongar​ only in some games, like the "Gold Box" ones. Others let you shuffle points around, but not change the total, and some only let you roll. I think Eye of Beholder didn't.

[@FlourEater]

Baldur´s Gate saga... oh memories.

[@laoxep]

Eye of the beholder lets you max

[@Dragonphoenix25]

Trying to get that high percentage on your 18 Strength in 2nd edition, good times

[@chastermief839]

im surprised you guys didnt mention the third way of determining ability scores beyond point buy and rolling-- the "standard set" in the player's handbook. 15 14 13 12 10 8. to be fair its a lot less interesting to take the standard set... and there's not a lot to talk about. it's just a safe, quick way for determining stats that gives you a couple nice stats and one slightly sub-par stat as a flaw. i figured it would be worth at least a mention in passing.

[@onijester56]

The Standard Array is literally a middle-of-the-road Point-Buy option. A couple good skills, a few average/above-average skills, and one low skill. I personally prefer point-buy for selective customization, such as ensuring that my two Bards have no literal "dump stat" or allowing my Goliath Sorcerer to be effective at casting spells and bashing things over the head with "boom-stick". But even then I build my characters with the Standard Array as a starting-point. "What stats do I want to focus on, and what stats do I not care about for this character?" Then (with a little bit of math and knowledge of the racial bonuses of the race/class combination I want) I drop some stats to increase other stats to create the character that fits the concept I have.

[@timothye.2902]

standard array is point-buy legal, meaning that it is essentially a specific sub-type of point buy, rather than a true option 3.

[@stijndevries6175]

I used this stat array for my first ever character, played a ghostwise halfling druid of the moon. Had heaps of fun but was definitely getting outdone in certain areas due to some party members rolling for stats. All in all, I feel like any way of getting stats is fine as long as the whole party uses the same guidelines

[@Mr_Jumbles]

@@stijndevries6175 well ya no shit if you have some guys doing this roll and drop or keep rerolling bullshit it's not fair and your DM probably shouldn't have allowed both to be mixed in cuz this exact thing is what happens.

[@giraffedragon6110]

I like to roll my stats but if they’re all AWFUL then I take the standard

[@mysticgise]

Want to talk about Big Damn Heroes? My first DM had us roll 3d6, reroll 1s, then drop the lowest and add 6. Granted he didn't pull any punches ever, and we had to survive in D&D2A Greyhawk. But still, a 14 dump stat feels really good when looking at your character sheet between sessions.

[@dylanmaguire3595]

I personally like having one awful stat for role-playing. Like grog from critical role

[@Epulor1]

Dylan Maguire I definitely agree. A low ability score can be amazingly fun to role play.

[@saxyjesus501]

I recently rolled 3 wisdom for my divination wizard

[@joeleek9976]

@@saxyjesus501 3 wisdom can be difficult to rp well. It is easier at 2am. Sleep dep ftw.

[@KappaKiller108]

I like to give my players a choice, I'll sometimes give them a single 18 stat to put wherever they want. But then I get to assign a 7 to another stat

[@joeleek9976]

@@KappaKiller108 I used to use Caramon Majere's stats as a guideline...that was in 2nd ed though. Now stats play a far greater role and the 18,17,15,12,10,8 would be a bit much

[@ancientseraph6111]

We just started with a group of almost completely new players and me as DM. One guy has some xp with 3.5 and suggested we just start off with 15/14/13/12/10/8 and distribute those by choice. The main reason I wouldn't start with rolling is that this may lead to an imbalance within the group, some being much stronger than others, making them feel useless/inferior. I rather have that come from their class picks, where everyone has areas where they shine or fail. This way I can create a game everyone enjoys. We're very much playing for fun, and none of them are number enthusiasts, so this seemed to be the ideal option. I'll leave randomness to the places where it won't have an effect for the rest of the character's lives, and none of us are looking into creating multiple PC's just because we might roll bad.

[@kurojima]

15/14/13/12/10/8 is actually the suggested standard array by the players handbook and a perfectly good way of having good, but balanced individuals with some strength in their field and actual weaknesses in some others - which improves party play of course - they just fool themselves in their "roll system", because they do cheat and make themselves so much stronger than the game intends them to be

[@Derploop]

AncientSeraph stat imbalances should be RP'd around. If you've legitimately rolled 18s in everything, you as a player shouldn't do everything and take all the glory because you can. You choose to let the other players shine, because otherwise you don't get to play again because no one likes playing with you. Also, you should always roll with the DM present, no one likes a bullshitter and if they lie about stats they're probably going to suck to play with because they have the mind of a child. Option 3: if you or the players don't have time to roll with the DM (you) present or over skype with them watching, and someone turns up with suspiciously ridiculous stats, just give everyone those stats or close. You're the DM. You are more powerful than god in this universe.

[@DamienGranz]

If you're going to let people reroll until they get a godly character you might as well just do point buy with more points. You're just going to save time. There's a reason why 'take 10' and 'take 20' rules were invented. Because the worse thing that can happen at the table if you're playing a long term (like, years long playing the same campaign long term) game is having somebody who's character they feel bad and worse and worse about having because they rolled crap on HP or stats day 1, so that another player can have all 18's and just do everything including their own role better than them.

[@garyco766]

Agreed. I will only ever do point buy because I feel it's the only way to be fair to the characters. Even someone who just got the average, what you might expect, rolled character will pale in comparison to the one guy at your table that rolled 18, 16, 16, 15, 14, 12 and starts with a 20 in their primary stat at level 1. Think about it, it's like the GM telling one character "okay, have 3 free ASI at level 1. No, not all of you, just Jim".

[@davea6314]

I was thinking a similar thing. Require all the players to use point but add 4 extra point to point buy and allow for the highest stat to be a 16 instead of a 15. So for example, half elf could start off with an 18 charisma because with point buy he could reach 16 plus his racial modifier of +2. Even without that adjustment, point buy is OK if you know how to prioritize the stats.

[@onetruetroy]

This episode conjures memories of rolling 3d6 in order and building a character. Point buy is great for bringing a concept character to life. My friends and I came up with a method to have chosen and random values for abilities. Everyone starts with 18 & 8 or 17 & 9 or 16 & 10. Assign those two as desired. Fill in the remaining scores (in order) with 4d6 drop the lowest. This provides some certainty and some randomness. This way, each player can create a concept hero easily and quickly.

[@Parker8752]

I always rather liked the Forte and Foible method from a third party Pathfinder adventure path: Pick one stat to be an 18, the other to be an 8, and then roll 1d10+7 in order for the rest.

[@johnharrison2086]

I will take the 17 and 9 because as a human they become 18 and 10. Guarrentees a high level stat and no penalty from the first two stats!

[@dynamicworlds1]

If your goal is to produce an array of mostly middling stats, you're better off using d4s instead of d6s as it produces a steeper and more narrow bell curve. 3d6 is an avg of 10.5 and a range of 3-18 4d4 is an average of 10 and a range of 4-16, but clusters a lot more around 10. (Note: you could also do 5d4 drop lowest if you wanted a higher average) With either dice though, you could also do ability=roll-mod. Roll a 4? It's now a 7 Roll a 7? Now an 9 Roll a 12? Now a 11 Roll a 16? Now a 13 This gives you a range of 7-14 or 7-13 for d6 and d4 respectively. Little probability tricks can change the odds pretty easily if you're willing to think outside the box.

[@ROYBGP]

Troy Cook that's pretty good.

[@handlesarestupid154]

Why WOULDN'T you take a -1 in a dump stat for a guaranteed +4 on your best one?

[@Jamiethekatz]

This is the first edition where stats and feats are the same resource in character levelling; this lends itself to point buy because a character with a large pool of high starting stats will now have many more options for feats later in the character's development.

[@garmr2512]

Rolling can deliver higher stats point buy just averages it....

[@zackarychristian9489]

​@@garmr2512 that's exactly what they just said.

[@CthulhusDream]

My DM has recently started a standard array of 15 14 13 12 10 8 and you get a free feat, I kinda dig it.

[@michaelvelez8566]

Along with a +1 to any two stats, that's the standard array with human variant option.

[@CthulhusDream]

+Michael Velez Ah, I had no idea. We don't get the additional +1's though

[@waveman0]

hardly heroic stats.

[@clerickolter]

What about ROLE-PLAYING I rolled a 5e character today in order Str 9, Dex 11, Con 16, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 12 and am playing a Human Wizard whose just going to have to work at it to be any good but can opt to stack lower level spells when I gain 4th level spells can just jam those into lower level prepared spells. But has good hit points and is comely enough. I can use Feats and do some customization and my advanced abilities will work regardless how lack of Int my Wizard is. But he just learned from a Hedge Mage so managed to just be okay in magic whose mentor was a 7th level Enchanter powerful for being in a modest village!

[@tonkdumbledonk]

stats =/= hero, character building, player ability, resourcefulness, etc = hero

[@Pandaemoni]

More power does not make one "heroic" or a "hero." Sam and Frodo weren't rocking 18s. Heroism makes one heroic, and it is probably more heroic to have a character with low scores act bravely than a cheesed out demigod.

[@kurojima]

exactly, heroic acts come from normal individuals acting against terrible odds - not super heroes against kobolds

[@falconforgefantasy9496]

Preach Brother

[@Lurklen]

This all the way. My 1st D&D character had a -4 in Dex and a -2 in Cha, playing him is one of my favorite things, a foul mouthed drugged out dwarf wizard with the shakes. I actually like PC's with negative stats, makes them more interesting.

[@jsizzlesaurusrex]

Flawed characters are good characters. Superman is boring for a reason.

[@Lurklen]

TLDR: Not redundant cause Hobbits>everyone else ring resistance. And playing with high stats is easy mode/reduces the scope of the game to just the dice rolls and math. Longer version below. That's what players bring to the table. The other characters wouldn't have been redundant for two reasons: A) Even well statted PC's only roll well some of the time and B) They were perfect targets for the ring. They were both heroic powerful chracters who were men of purpose and action and who had great tasks they knew only they could complete. Which meant the ring could manipulate them into folly by making them think they could complete those objectives through its use. This was in some ways the point of Tolkien's story. Good folk with simple ambitions could be heroic, not because they rose above their origins and became great but because of their simple nature. Or to put it more cynically the ring didn't have much to work with because it doesn't take much to make Hobbits happy. When your largest ambition is to eat six meals a day and not have to work as hard it's tough to commit great folly. In gaming terms this means that due to being hobbits Frodo, Bilbo and Sam had higher saves vs the rings influence. This is shown by the fact that all three of them wore the ring and were able to withstand and resist outright its influence far longer than anyone else who had possessed it. Beyond this they only brought what cleverness and steadfastness they had to the table. They had courage but not a lot else. Which the story actually bears out, the most impressive feats they exhibit are ones of luck and daring not strength or might, or even intellect. They are the poorly statted players who mostly lose so tend to avoid conflict and got lucky in a couple of combat encounters. Beyond this it's a lot to expect two PC's and more importantly their players to think of every solution to a problem. More people, even crappy people means more brain power when things get tough. Interestingly the idea behind this "campaign" would have been that the more powerful the players become the harder it is to complete their quest, which I think is a really compelling idea, that creates lots of neat avenues for creative play. It's really hard to go through a table top campaign and not become stronger, instead of figuring out how to get through the next challenge, the challenge would be how to avoid heroics completely. So yes players with poorly statted PC's will "underperform" mathematically some of the time. But these games aren't all in the rolls. Players with poor stats have to be more creative, they can't just roll their way out of trouble. This is in many ways more realistic, most of us have maybe one or two good stats and even then they kind of suck. But if a PC with poor stats is "dead weight" than it's probably because they are trying to play like a player who has good ones. If you suck at stuff that just means you have to play differently. That said, this style of play isn't for everybody. Some people want the power fantasy, others just don't want to have to think that hard about how to move a cart when the horse is dead and they have a -3 in STR. That's fine, but in my opinion they're missing out. These games are so much bigger than the math, you have so much freedom and if you're clever with how you do things you hardly ever have to roll. And when you manage to lead a group of bandits into an old barn and trap them inside it and light the whole thing on fire and you never had to roll once and your fighter with a +1 in STR and like 0's in everything else wins the fight it feels amazing. If it was all about the numbers it would be a Crpg. (edited for clarity and because apparently I can't shut up)

[@darcyrobbs6866]

I think alot of players have forgot that a commoner is like flat 10s. If you have a character that has 13 all the way down. you are already super amazing. I know when we play we compare them to old characters but its important to remember those characters probably dont exist in this world.

[@Unahim]

Wouldn't read into that. In the MM, bandits suddenly have better attributes than commoner,s but the flavour reads: "Oppression, drought, disease, or famine can often drive otherwise honest folk to a life of banditry." So they're commoners who've fallen on hard times, and therefore... get better attributes? Right. It's all very abstracted.

[@randalljones8708]

They have better stats because they've been bandits for however long. They basically have "leveled up" through their current lifestyle. Makes total sense.

[@bakuhakudraws5603]

not necessarily, because in actual game rules, a 13 gives you a 5% across-the-board advantage over an 'average' commoner. Even if you're a downright GOD with 20s across the board, you're only 25% more likely to succeed at an ability check than said commoners. This is why I generally don't like the stat cap of 20 or the overall idea of bounded accuracy in 5e all that much; it tends to rob a lot of the sense of progression from the actual character and puts it instead into equipment and class features. Even though you get way more chances to increase your ability scores as you level, it is impossible without magic items to be more than 25% more likely to succeed at a feat of strength than any joe schmoe off the streets. When a 20th level wizard still has a 20% chance to fail an average-difficulty INT check to figure out how some mechanism works unless he's wearing his special magic crown that makes him super-mega-ultra-smart, it begins to feel less like the base character is actually improving, and more like they're just getting cool fancy toys tacked on top of them.

[@lorinatidc]

This isn't really accurate as you are basing it on two relative stats on people. Not the task at hand as DnD does. A commoner may be 10 but it's a d20 with modifiers and you are considering modifiers. 0 and a plus 5 for 25%. it's actually just the task. So having a 75% chance of success is amazing at stat 20. And with a skill or two when you double proficiencies or adds. even high to never failing. That's game breaking without elevating everything else as DnD puts forth and therefore is now modifying it just to cater to your incredible over success to bother rolling. A commoner having a 50/50 is fair enough. But your 75% is quite a safe bet. Basing this all on the d20 system in which 15 is hard and a 20 is suppose to be near impossible.

[@bakuhakudraws5603]

well, I recognize the idea behind it, and it's one of those benefit/drawback situations; if you have a level 20 wizard with a proficiency in arcana, that gives him +11 to his arcana checks. This means he still has a 15% chance to fail a DC 15 check, while a commoner with 10 INT and no proficiency has a 75% chance of failure. For certain things, this makes sense, and for others, it ends up weirdly silly: let's say, for example, you're in the middle of a battle and you're trying to frantically figure out how the enchantment on this new magic item you picked up works. The DMG says it's a DC 15 arcana check to use it correctly if you don't know what it is. The commoner has a 25% chance of getting it right, which I suppose you can attribute to pure luck, while the wizard has a 15% chance to fail at figuring that out. This situation works for me; it's frantic, everything's happening really fast, I can understand a normal-ass commoner lucking their way through a last-ditch effort occasionally, while the wizard might occasionally fail to get the same result. Now another example; you're not in the middle of a fight, you're trying to figure out some arcane puzzle, and if you screw it up, something bad happens (just for the sake of eliminating the option to take 10 on it), and the DM decides it's another DC 15 check. I find it a lot less believable that the commoner with zero magical training still gets that same 25% chance of lucking their way through it, while the wizard, who has spent their entire life training in and learning magic, even HAS a chance of not understanding it. Basically, in my eyes, If the task is so difficult that a wizard who has devoted their entire life to studying the arcane and has spent years of their life honing these skills and has basically achieved the power of a demigod (as most 20th level characters have) STILL has a chance to fail, then the commoner should have absolutely ZERO chance to succeed. On the flipside, if the commoner even has the ability to luck into figuring something out because it's that simple, then the wizard should have absolutely zero difficulty figuring it out. The mental stats are a lot easier for me to understand, but the physical stats are way more difficult to justify in my mind; A fighter with 20 strength should NEVER have the chance to fail at say, lifting a large rock or breaking down a door if a commoner with 10 strength is even remotely capable of achieving the same result, and anything that fighter would actually find difficult and would have a chance to fail at should be utterly inconceivable to a 10 strength commoner. I completely understand it from a game balance perspective, and it generally makes sense in that regard, but no one solution works for every scenario. Overall, I generally am not a huge fan of 5e's particular solution because it feels almost like a hamstringing of the player's sense of progression by comparison to older editions. The older editions come with their own drawbacks of absolutely absurd numbers that become just plain silly at high levels, and some people don't like that, but I kinda enjoy that absurdity being a reward, as it were, for having put in the work to get a character up to that level.

[@brochlarkwright6016]

see I LOVE point buy mainly because i love having 1 or two stats that are between 6 and 8 it gives them more personality and makes the character more fun to rp

[@quonomonna8126]

can't be below 8 or above 15 as per PHB

[@samwest4757]

I really hope this series gets more support- I love your guys style, and the content is insightful and helpful to starting DMs, players and even experienced DMs can gather extra goddies and tips to really immerse their players.

[@JPruinc]

Spread the word and keep tuning in!

[@danielsantarosa101]

I do like the point buy cause it feels more balanced, like, you won't be great at everything, you'll do one or two thing great, one you''ll suck, and the rest you'll do normal. Everyone has flaws, even heroes, and roleplaying those flaws make the game more fun. Also, when I try to think of the mechanics of some character, I usually think using regular point buy

[@grizzlednerd4521]

I agree, but also the standard point buy or stat array system limits how flawed a character could be.

[@icarusunited]

I prefer 30 point buy gives a single better stat, or 2 better stats.

[@krispalermo8133]

High dex equals higher initiative bonus, defense, range attack rolls. " Ok your character is Far Sighted, and can't make use of the feat: point blank shot but you still have to get PBS before you can gain Far Shot. " what do you mean, you dropped it ! you can't see a dusty copper piece next to your foot and you Drop the Lock Pick ? ! "

[@trentwilis2582]

I may be strange but I personally perfer 1d12+6 method my group uses. It is quick and your scores can range from 7 to 18.

[@thebravegallade731]

D12s just doesn't have the bell curve of 4d6 tho.

[@jacobjankowski8796]

“They can fall off cliffs and be just fine” Someone tell that to Keyleth.

[@maxwilson2318]

Jacob Jankowski it's fine, we're basically gods!

[@urieldaluz250]

I mean, I did some math, and any barbarian of 7th level of above can fall from orbit and literally has no risk of death if they fall from orbit -max fall damage is 120 (20d6) -rage at last second halves the bludgeoning damage to 60 -an average of 7hp per level, and assuming they took at least 14 in con. 9hp/level, X7 is 63 And that’s not counting potentially higher health or con or the tough feat.

[@EmmerFan]

The thing with point buy in 5e is the rule that you can't go over 15 before racial mods and you can't go under 8 to get more points

[@wehtawnikrap]

Point buy is different to stat array. You get 27 with point buy to increase you ability scores up to a certain level & static array is you have a set scores that you have to use.

[@onijester56]

In 5e, Point-Buy is 27 points, beginning at a minimum ability score value of 8 in everything at a cost of "0" points. The two extremes are "Three stats at values of 15, and three at 8" and "Three stats at values of 12, and three at 13". However, the Point-Buy system in 5e also permits purchasing the Standard Array with those 27 points. ---- In Pathfinder, you begin with the number of points available as determined by the Campaign Difficulty. Pathfinder Society (the organized play) is "High-Fantasy" and thus permits using 20 points. All stats begin at 10, but you can dump a stat down to 7 to get a "-4-point cost" or (because of double-negative) a 4-point credit...turning your 20 points into 24 points. This is crucial, especially in lower-fantasy campaigns, to getting a series of higher ability scores, since the purchasing caps at a score of 18...which has a 17-point cost to it. Literally a "Standard Fantasy" or "Average" character (where you begin with 15 points) would be unable to buy themselves a starting 18 in an ability score without dumping at least one stat.

[@dynamicworlds1]

@ this is the best method for D&D. Adjust point allocation for desired flavor, but make it cost increasing amounts to go higher. When it takes you 6 points just to take an ability from 16-18, it not only makes it more align with the bell curve of dice, but really makes interesting choices for your character both mechanically and in characterization if you're going to focus that much on one score. In the 30 point buy of NWN that means the difference between having 20 points to spread between the 5 remaining abilities or 14. That will affect a character quite a bit for that extra +1 mod and would even more if you used lower than 30 points.

[@quonomonna8126]

@@wehtawnikrap reading is your friend

[@wehtawnikrap]

@@quonomonna8126 & being a dickhead is your friend.

[@JebediahKermanXVIII]

In my first game, my DM did a point-roll system, where we rolled 4D6 and added the 3 highest results to get a stat option. We did this 6 times, at which point we could choose which stat we could assign our rolls too, so we could get the stats we need higher while still having a lot of variance between stats for slightly more interesting character. I think this stat roll-and-assign system works rather well, where stats vary between 9-18 while still being able to choose the stats you need for your planned character.

[@culo9999]

I'm brand new to the hobby--so take what I'm gonna say with several grains of salt--but I allow my players to do either. The way I see it is as a matter of perspective. The primary advantages of point buy, imo, are two-fold. First, it creates a consistently solid character. Second, it better facilitates planned builds; if you really want to try that Tortle Rogue/Monk to get that TMNT vibe, point buy pretty much guarantees, maybe with an ASI or two, that you can pull it off effectively enough. Players to prefer optimization and control will probably appreciate this method most. What I've been doing with rolls, on the other hand, is taking Matt Colville's suggestion of rolling 4 dice, dropping the lowest, and applying each roll in order according to most character sheets. This is kind of working in the opposite direction of the point buy example I presented; you get your abilities and have to figure out what race, class, and other options make something interesting to you as a player. No pre-conceived notions, just kind of explore the character creation system. It can also lead to cool spontaneous RP opportunities, and high roll situations that are not possible with point buy. Players who prefer more randomness, or just love rolling dice, will likely dig this more than point buy. I haven't experienced enough to have a preference of one over the other; it's pros and cons on both sides, really. I think they're both valid and pretty fun at the moment.

[@Danzignan]

Really good idea! I think you could do both at the same time, let the players decide. Now, one year later, do you have a preferred method?

[@FtonDavid]

I like point buy as everyone is going to be on the same footing, there will be no uber lucky (or cheated) goons and no so crippled characters that the party will be carrying it all the time. It seems fair and reliable.

[@MrGreensweightHist]

Agreed, and you can make the character more the way you are envisioning. I start with a concept, and want stats to fit it. I don;t want to look at stats then think, "Crap. Now what kind of a character can I force into this?"

[@blahlbinoa]

awesome episode as always guys! I might actually try out the 3d8 stat for a game I'm going to run. Also, one thing I always did with rolling is do 4s6 and reroll ones as many times as they showed up and reroll 2s once. But with 5th ed. I feel the point buy system is more fair than rolling.

[@JPruinc]

You can have some epic characters with point by after a couple of ability increases.

[@blahlbinoa]

Its what I tell all my players when I tell them about point buy, to always remember that after a few levels you get stat increases and there are potential magic items that give stat increases.

[@robertnett9793]

With my cursed luck with dice I just never warmed up to dice-rolling character generation. I did it a few times, because I had to - but the results were arkward every time. Like getting a character worse then point-buy after the third reroll (the first was under the minimum for dice-rolling, the second exactly par with the minimum, the third one... now anyway. Or I played with a rolled up character, and the GM asked a few sessions in, why my stats are X points under the group-average. "Yeah. I've rolled it." Things like that. Then - I like to build a character from an idea. I want to play this and that character with this and that skillset and abilities. With dice-rolls you just can't do that. (Or you reroll until it fits.) In short - I like build-systems way better then dices.

[@robertnett9793]

Now. Most times Dice-Chaos tends to screw me over. Chaos in most other incarnations (my desk, my scribblings, most parts of my mind) I embrace with passion :D

[@Samwise7RPG]

I prefer random stat generation these days, mostly in the form of 4D6 drop the lowest straight down the line. I will play in games with point buy or assigning points (A Song of Ice and Fire, Vampire: the Masquerade, etc.) but when it comes to fantasy D&D-like games I got to roll them bones.

[@Samwise7RPG]

I much prefer the zero to hero paradigm, so starting out with 10s and 11s works for that.

[@tonkdumbledonk]

id say the same. i love point buy in like, shadowrun for instance, because there's no actual classes. you just pick from a huge list of resources, skills, powers, etc. even though its point buy every character has a chance to be interesting and different. in 5e the book literally states what you should pick for each archetype to be the most effective, so there's not a lot of room for variance. but yeah random stats make more interesting characters usually i agree

[@AlexBermann]

I love the zero to hero paradigm as well. However, I don't see it working in D&D because stats hardly ever change. I tried to wrap my head around some house rules to remedy that but never was satisfied with the results.

[@tonkdumbledonk]

Alex Bermann i really enjoy the pathfinder system, every 4 lvls they can place a point in whatever attribute they'd like. however long term training homebrew rules for adnd and 3rd ed seemed to work pretty well.

[@AlexBermann]

That's not nearly enough for me. If your campaign goes from level 1 to 12, those are just 3 points. Even if you go through all 20 levels, its just 5 points. Also, players who rolled well get those points as well, so you never can catch up a bad start.

[@aranockcooke98]

My issue with rolling is having a mary sue who is the best at everything and the other players never get to do things as effectively as that character. As well, because the character is so powerful it is unlikely they will die

[@Aplesedjr]

Simple solution to this, get the dm to make their character get beat around a bunch. It works in game as well, because the enemies would eventually realize that there is one person in the group is far better than everyone and should be target number 1.

[@austaryxthelastofthesane3870]

Connor Cooke If I roll up one of those, I usually drop a stat or two down to 8ish or in the case of a monk bound to an all powerful mind crushing monster I made, I started rolling his intelligence everyday at disadvantage since his strength is 18 dex 19 con 12 wisdom 13 and charisma 15. So basically you could ask them to do something like that or just ask them to lower the stat.

[@Conshey11]

Its funny that overpowered multi-classing is so common, but when you go back to character creation this is where all that power stems from. Standard Array or Point Buy balances this out in a way that many players so for rolling stats can't fathom. The games that I run don't have problems with runaway power characters and I fully believe that it starts with using the point buy system over rolling for stats.

[@blakebrockhaus347]

Conshey11 what I've seen is that most powergamers and min/maxers use point buy because it does not have any risk of impacting their character is a way they would not want

[@Daredhnu]

ultimately there is no risk in rolling for stats because you can just discard the rolls if you don't like them, no DM is going to force you to play a character with bad stats, point buy atleast guarantees that all the players are on the same footing to each other.

[@Unahim]

Why would no DM make you play with bad stats? My players always get to decide if they want to roll or to point buy. If they pick rolls, they make their bed and sleep in it, whatever they get.

[@PauLtus_B]

+Alan Brockhaus Rolling is slightly better statistically than doing a point buy. Next to that, a lot of DM's allow rules that will make sure players won't have completely terrible stats making it a TON better than doing a point buy, so in reality I see most power gamers going for rolling. Point buy is good for the people who want complete control for how their character will play out, and there's tons of reasons to want that, could either be power gaming or simply wanting to play something specific. I recently rolled a character because I didn't know how I wanted the stats to be, and I did enjoy the result, for a later character I decided to do a point buy because I wanted a certain stat to be low and I can't guarantee that when rolling.

[@TheVergile]

stats dont really matter much at all tho. No mater which system you use you will end up with at least 15-16 in your main stats. The two main stats make up about 90% of rolls that happen at the table. Additionally: statistically speaking less than 20% of rolls during a normal game get decided by a +1 or +2 difference. The range of the D20 compared to one or two modifier points is just too huge. If you are looking for imbalance the number one reason is class abilities.

[@tann8619]

I love the randomness of rolling, lends to some really fun roleplaying moments! But if point buy is your thing then more power to you fam

[@timpind.8237]

In my campaign, I created my character by: rolling six dice, and using those as my stats. I had a strength of 3, a wisdom of five, and a dex of 7. My charisma was 20. My character was a sorcerer, and REALLY wasn’t a fighter. Fortunately, neither was the other player. There were two people in the party: a half-orc paladin, and my teifling sorcerer. We were both pacifists, and we very rarely killed, which was actually extremely difficult, and very very fun. We became extremely diplomatic adventurers, and diplomancy made the encounters that could have been very simple instead became extremely rewarding. A small pack of goblins took us an hour to pacify, but we ended up befriending them, and we eventually allied the nearby town and the goblin hive (the goblins in this campaign were very much like bees, so we called them “hives” of goblins), turning the town into a much more powerful nation later in the game. My character’s life was later saved by the goblin leader, who had some nice healing magics. Edit: always try to make allies. A friendly orc is always better than a dead one.

[@gabrielrockman]

D&D is more fun when you have at least 1 stat less than 10. It's great to role play these weaknesses. Heroes without any weaknesses or flaws are much less interesting.

[@AppledirtArchive]

Before even watching the video, I would like to present an idea I homebrew into all games I run. *TL;DR:* I use 16, 14, 13, 12, 10, 9 as the standard array, 30 points for point buy, and allow my players to go up to 18 in point buy, with 16 costing 11, 17 14, and 18 17. So, as for a little backstory, I am a huge math nerd, and was doing a personal project to map out all the probabilities in D&D to create calculators for ability scores, weapon attacks, spells, and saves. About halfway through the project my work got a whole lot easier because I found anydice.com which helped me calculating the probabilities. Now for a while I've known that players are often drawn away from using standard array or point buy due to it being statistically lower scores than average. On the site I found an article explaining how to calculate average ability scores, which I thought was perfect for this problem! Because people use 4d6 drop 1, I just used the formula given to calculate average starting stats for 4d6 drop one and, after rounding, got 16, 14, 13, 12, 10, 9 as the standard array for this set of dice. I wanted to convert this to points, but 16 is too high for that. Considering this, I tried to kill 2 birds with one stone, and gave 16, 17, and 18 their own point values for point buy, so players could get high stats from this method, but with lower stats than normal in some areas. After some consideration, I decided for 15-16 it should go up by 2, same as 13-14 and 14-15, making it cost 11 points. For 16-17 and 17-18 it goes up by 3 points each time, meaning 17 costs 14 points and 18 costs 17. Using this, I found that 4d6 drop 1 would have a standard array of 16, 14, 13, 12, 10, 9, a point buy of 30, and an average of 12.24459877. Now, most players who want to create their characters on their own use either standard array or point buy, but if we make them in person people tend to want to use dice. I also use this for when creating pre-made npcs. You do bring up good points on the normal ones though.

[@RighBread]

When I first was taught how to play D&D, we were told to roll 4d6, drop the lowest, TWICE for each stat, taking the higher of either roll. It's how me and all my friends continued doing it because we thought that was the way, plus as youngsters we all wanted big epic stats. Now that I'm old, I actually hate getting more than one stat over 16 because I feel overpowered and it's boring. I think Mr. Davis mentions this in another episode, but I'd love to play a game where everyone has super low stats, as though they were literally just farmers or other commoners that suddenly decided to venture into the world. Despite what Pruitt thinks, I would really enjoy the challenge of having to deal with a couple monstrous rats as a Blacksmith rather than easily wiping the floor with them as some big tough Fighter.

[@bookworm13x]

I like generous point buy for games I run. Basically, the same as regular point buy, but everyone starts at 10 in every stat, you can move your stats around as you like (including taking below 10 to move points to a different stat), you can go up to 20 in any stat, and you can buy feats for 2 points instead of taking the ASIs. I encourage my players to multi class and be creative, and I don't want them to be penalized for making a weird build.

[@nathankelley1466]

As a DM I make a lot of NPCs. I just assign the scores i think are acceptable. Generally low for unimportant NPCs, with a highest score at about 14. Main protagonists may have an 18 in there with other good scores. Rarely have an NPC with more than one 18, but main enemies should have scores like the characters.

[@JPruinc]

I'm the same way when DMing.

[@RagingKarma2]

IMO if I create a boss I have had it where bosses have multiple 20's. This is one of my most powerful boss's stats in order of the sheet S 24 D 26 Co 22 I 30 W 26 ch 24 and I think it is a reasonable boss as either a final boss or a super boss.

[@Gunther930]

1d20 six times in order is easily the best way ;)

[@oscar.newall]

I did that for my half orc paladin, and ended up with +6 str +5 con and -4 int

[@eveescastle5866]

Why? That just sounds like an easy way to have a character with -4 modifier in everything.

[@Tyler-ij2bm]

Had a dm roll party stats this way we ended up with three 20s two 18s and a 17

[@curtisbrown547]

yea! can't wait to play my 1 str wizard! what do you mean he's encumbered by his robes an spell book!? hey don't worry though! the 1 con 20 str 20 dex barbarian is here to help! right up until he dies automatically on his 2nd or 1st level I would ask our 1 int 2 wis rogue what to do but he's to busy slipping into a coma an dying.

[@G33KST4R]

The absolute madman

[@shallendor]

I started with 1E AD&D, so i have done a lot of rolling for characters. Almost every game i have played, the dm has allowed us to roll stats. With 5E, i have a tendency to roll a 6 on 4d6 drop lowest and it has been interesting.

[@JPruinc]

It always burns...rolling a 6 or 7.

[@seymourfields3613]

Most complicated awesome system I came up with: DM rolls 12D6, all players get the same 12 numbers they can pair up as they see fit. At level 1 you get plus 1 to all. At level 2 you get plus 1 to another five attributes. At level 3, you get to add another plus 1 to four abilities. Until you get to level 6 and pick one ability to add the plus one to. So you might have a three in your dump stat if you're thinking min/max through the whole thing. Or the player can balance things more. Mix those permanent boosts with a couple boots from options chosen through the story, you have the bones of a very epic story.

[@nappingbear2405]

I'm the sort of player who likes to have my stats a certain way. I'll often max out my primary stat and drop the least useful stat, while keeping several at 12. So point buy is my go to. The biggest problem with rolling a character is if you want to multiclass or play a character that needs to have very balanced stats. That being said, I'm not opposed to the idea of rolling a character. And I'd actually like to roll attributes for a character, then choose my race and class to fit what I rolled. I often have trouble deciding which class to play, so having it chosen for me would be nice, lol.

[@TheVergile]

On my table players get to roll out stats once. If they dont like it they can use the standard array. thats it.

[@ZerkMonsterHunter]

I really like the 2d6+6 that's my method of choice. allows for reasonable stats and also the possibility of crazy stats. like a 20 dexterity Drow ranger at level 1.

[@milokiss8276]

Fuck you, Kyle. Mary sue drow rogue...

[@shadowgear7032]

ZerkMonsterHunter 4 why not just 4d6 drop lowest

[@milokiss8276]

Shadowgear Because you can roll a 3 with that.

[@shadowgear7032]

Milokiss82 I mean I guess but we houserule no stats less than 7 anyways so

[@milokiss8276]

Shadowgear Yeah, But that's against the rule you were just defending

[@mattkeflowers]

I was looking for something more generous than 4d6 drop lowest but not so easy to manipulate as point buy, and Seven 4d6 drop lowes die, drop lowest set is a perfect pull for that. I want my players to really feel like real heroes, and less like perfectly sculpted hero-bots. Thanks for tossing that out there! So many forums just debate 3d6, 4d6 drop lowest, and various means of point buy.

[@Kryxx07]

I used Standard Array for my first game that I'm currently running in 5E. I'll probably settle into some sort of Point Buy as the norm, but I'd definitely like to try rolling sometime. Just have to make sure the players are on board and can role... play with it and just run with what the dice give.

[@Finkeldinken]

I really like both methods. I usually prefer rolling over pointbuy, but tell my that they'll get to reroll if they get more than one negative stat, unless they reallly want more than one. I like heroic games, but I love even more when a player takes on voluntary "hardship" in the interest of going all in on a character they've thought out. Pointbuy just works super well for some games too, and if one wants over the top herioc, one can always just do 32 pointbuy or something instead of 27. One of my all time favourite charaters were made with pointbuy, so you'll never hear me knocking it. Rollin' those dice, tho.

[@AnnaTheFallMaiden]

I do a similar thing, my players may roll, but should their total score (when you add all abilitiy scores) be lower than 5 (the total score of standard rotation) they may switch to standard rotation instead

[@kirwitch8236]

I use standard array almost exclusively. Should I switch to point buy?

[@jchagasla]

I've been experimenting with having my players roll 20d6, drop the lowest two, then allocating in trios. It is surprisingly balanced. You could end up with like two 18's and a two 5's, which is fun to play for a RP heavy table.

[@crystalheath6510]

i like point buy because it starts all your table's characters at the same point and no one shines especially because they happened to roll super well.

[@definitelyNotGreg]

I prefer arrays as a GM that way I know all my players are on the same power level and they all have at least 1 flaw

[@Hyde_Hill]

Consider point buy without 15,15,15,8,8,8 still allows for some strategy and role playing of the players in how they assign them.

[@markanderson4538]

I'm about to start my first D&D game, the DM decided on rolling for stats, I've ended up with 0 +1 +1 -1 -1 +2 while another in my party has +1 +4 +3 +2 +3 0. Overall (before race stuff ) I rolled 62, total he rolled 88. considering 10 is a base for 6 stats, I rolled +2 he rolled +28 I'm now going to be comparatively worthless in combat for.... what?.... years? its really put me off even getting started with the game.

[@McWerp]

Just do something stupid game 1, die, and roll up a new character. Rolling for characters in long term campaigns is dumb.

[@SimeonDenk]

My favorite stat rolling technique growing up was something I called "conveyor belt." Roll 4d6 (drop the lowest) 6 times. Keeping your rolls in the same order, move your stack up or down next to the stat names. If you move your stat column down, then move the remaining stats to the top of the stack, and vice versa. Like a conveyor belt. It gets your top stat where it needs to be, but still results in interesting and unexpected combinations.

[@DeisFortuna]

I came up an interesting method called matrix generation. Basically you generate 36 scores and arrange them, in order, in a 6x6 grid. Then you pick one row or one column, and that's your ability scores. Either in order or not it's up to your DM.

[@williampfeiffer5536]

"What are we?" "Big damn heroes, sir"

[@DocShevek]

Point buy all the way especially with 5e. In this edition, they will be heroes regardless.

[@JPruinc]

I'm coming around on point by. The chance of an 18 has always been too much to pass up.

[@MrDMSir]

+JPruInc 4d6 makes for more interesting characters, for better or worse.

[@Chatedh]

what do you mean with "more interesting" characters?

[@MrDMSir]

Fernando Rüth Interesting characters come from variety. Point Buy is balanced but it restricts variety and can be seen as monotonous. What if you wanted to play the jack of all trades Bard who is slightly good at everything (14-15s) in each stat. You can't do that with point buy. Or if you were playing a paladin with very high stats who had to adjudicate his/her faith's principals on a community wide scale. I do have a friend who loves role playing poor stated characters and that person would be denied doing so with point buy. Hope that clarifies.

[@MrDMSir]

JPruInc We all love a lvl 1 prodigy! But sadly not all of them survive.

[@MjAuRdXo]

I like the concept of "zero to hero", and average joe becoming greatness. Low, nonheroic, rolls can be fun.

[@elmohead]

The first time I made a character, I rolled 5x 18s and a 16. Since then, I always use the point-buy system.

[@GuardianCitadel]

Point buy is good for a straight and fast setup for a campaign character, especially for dice-cursed or new players. 4d6 is good if everyone's fairly well experienced and can 'build on the fly' for a one-off adventure or module.

[@robmongar7933]

I agree, the shorter the game, the happier I am to allow players to roll.

[@Eggs_hatching]

5E is built to reward IG creativity and starting out with a character that has OP stats (bc rolling is easy to take advantage of) is much less fun than accepting your character is NOT already a hero and must become one. Heroes journey vs chosen one. point buy offers A LOT of variation based on race, class, and HOW you want to play your character. even in the same race/class there are different ways to play and different striengths to play to (the stats are never cookie cutter bc different people expect different things out of their class). Besides which, stats increase with character levels, and it is possible to *earn* stat increases IG through plot/items. All point buy does is make sure that everyone starts the game on the same level and that no one is an ultra herculean prodegy. Only farmers/prisoners/urchins/merchants here-- they got to be heroes on their own. They used to fight gnolls attacking their sheep, now they fight dragons.

[@sailor-hg]

Reminds me of a Palladium RPG game I played that had "exceptional" rules if you rolled a 17 or 18, you could roll an extra d6. Stats rolled in order, I ended up with 15+ in everything good for a Paladin with a 20 int for no particular reason. "Yeah the Paladin has like 3 ph.d's or something, just ignore them or they won't shut up about it."

[@dylanlewis3038]

To compare the methods, I made the same Barbarian twice. Once using the standard set from the PHB, and once using rolled numbers. It was my first time using rolled numbers and I got really lucky. Rolled 4d6, dropped the lowest, assigned the score how I wanted. I used variant human, with GWM feat and +1 to STR and CON. I ended up with 19 STR, 19 CON, 16 DEX, 16 CHA, 14 WIS and 14 INT. I got really lucky. I was able to Solo the opening part of the starter set. Killed the goblins on the trail, snuck up to the sentries, killed them, fed the wolves to calm them down, climbed up a chimney, killed the bugbear and his guards, rescued the guy that got captured, and then flooded the caves to kill the rest of the goblins. I felt awesome! Every other time I played I used the PHB numbers and died at least once, and that was with another party member!

[@tracysalathe3152]

In my own experience, some folks seem so afraid to have a lower stat on anything. Personally having some lower points adds dimention to a character. Great for roleplaying too, plus having too powerful a character honestly makes the game boring, especially when other players don't have some super powered toon, they feel a bit left out. There is a reason for a group of well rounded classes, they all have a part to play together, and if one chain link breaks, the team could die a horrible death. So I like the idea of either point buy, and the pre-arranged stats you place in, and then bump up according to race modifiers. It evens out the playing field, and gives everyone a chance to shine according to the abilities and builds of each character. Back in my early days of playing, the old white box, and my favorite (advanced edition), we didn't get the four d6 roll, and drop the lowest. We rolled 3 d6, and then placed them where we wanted them to go according to what type of class we wanted. Sometimes things went very bad, and characters died left and right, but I would just roll up another, and try again. Once in awhile some of us would get very lucky and roll up a fantastic character, and managed to bring them up to high levels. It's all in the flavor and style of what the players and game masters agree upon. I'm so happy though that the resugence of the game is gearing back up to so many new and young players.

[@TheFlyinSquirrel]

I was upset when my DM made me reroll the 4 i got on Intelligence for my Orc barbarian. I was ready to RP the shit out of that G.

[@LAJackson123]

For the longest time I've been getting my players to roll "The Matrix" - 4d6, take out your lowest die, add the result, and then do 6 columns of 6, take your best column. You can choose diagonally, vertically or horizontally. A tiny little variation in a traditional sense where you're not re-rolling 1's or 2's. Which I dispised.

[@andykapsar4667]

3d6, in that order are your stats. true dedication

[@scook9999]

I find 5E more with story telling, and flaws are awesome. Take into account most modern story telling and virtually all protagonists have major flaws, and it's damn wonderful! The huge difference from the 1980's is any missed save could mean instant death. Now, it seems it's a great way to have drama and plot. So, heroic, yes, but have some faults!

[@derbistheeternal2947]

what's next, an episode on armor class?

[@DocShevek]

Thac0 vs AC...

[@JPruinc]

+Roberto Padron I miss Thac0.

[@Finkeldinken]

+JPruInc Me too! I just have no excuse for it other than good clean nostalgia! When I think back, THAC0 was such a pain for me, because I suck with numbers, but somehow it must still have been a plus on my gaming experience. I've never been able to explain my affinity for THAC0, but it's so there.

[@JPruinc]

+Pru-Pruh Yeah, it's a mystery. I'm pretty good with the maths, so I was the guy at the table letting everyone know when they rolled whether or not they hit. I felt so much more important! =\

[@Finkeldinken]

+JPruInc Cool! In our games, Lars played that role, ha ha...I remember I was like twelve and it ended up with most of us rolling our attacks and then just blankly looking at Lars, who would then get to feel important - which was good, because we lived in the countryside, where usually, being good at math or being bookish at all would get you bullied, so rpgs were such a safe haven for our group. I am guessing a lot of roleplayers around the world have similar experiences) Now is better for me, but still: THAC0 nostalgia!

[@SapphireCrook]

While I used to espouse rolling as being the better one, I'm starting to see the benefit of arrays and point buy. Especially after seeing just how controlling the 3 sets system really is for rolls.

[@solisimperium1203]

I really like using the fixed method. Where you get to choose a +2, +1,+1,+0,+0, and a -1 modifier to any of the attributes you want. Makes it so that your not too OP or not too bad either.

[@fantell]

one of my funnest characters lately has been the Jester I've had to play after years of good luck on the die. 6, 7, 9, 9, 10, 11, 16. he's a bard. actually damned useful to keep around, but annoying as hell to have to lug around with you. he's completely dependent on the party, has a degenerative bone disease, and talks to the dolls head (a mini version of his own face) that is on the end of his jesters staff far too often. with leadership feat, the heroism spell, and the healers feat, he looks after his friends, though often causes the problems they have to fix, and he's not entirely reliable all the time...

[@LordZylok]

I prefer rolling, really high or low stats give inspiration for your character. You get to come up why your character has a really low int, or a really high con. It's fodder for your imagination.

[@PauLtus_B]

Or you might roll it in a way where all your stats are horrendously average. I recently rolled a character for the first time (because I didn't really know how I wanted to do a point buy) and I pretty much rolled the standard array.

[@jethroemmett4176]

Regarding rolling for stats, my choice is always 4d6 and remove the lowest, with one reroll for any stat the player chooses with the caveat that they have to take what they get. This results in above average rolls most of the time, which is great for the campaigns I like to run. Regarding character creation, I like to make characters with a designated focus related to their personality. For example, if I make a fighter that wants to be the strongest, I'm going to focus all their skills, ability scores and feats purely for combat, but their gonna suck for everything else. If not a focus for their character, some form of gimmick or flaw in the character personally that limits them. My personal favourite regarding this is my Curse of Strahd character, an Earth Genasi named Chasm who is basically an earth bender. He's a monk who is multiclassed as a wizard and can only cast either non-elemental spells or earth related spells.

[@benwright1871]

As a GM I do a mix of both. Namely, when I start a new campaign I roll up an NPC using 4d6, then that becomes the point buy for the group. This means I can tailor the content to a certain level, and also means the group members have the potential to be more even and no one feels left out. Our current game has a 31 point buy, and as such everyone had to make up backstories that match their power level. My very first character (A cleric in Pathfinder) was a roll 18d6, allocate a set number of dice to core stats. I rolled so horribly that I had several minuses and only 1 positive modifier, and was stuck with a Cleric with 5HP who was generally unconscious in 2 rounds. Where as everyone else was decent enough scored. We TPKed in the Beginners Box. Since then I have ran games with the roll NPC/set point buy so no one horrid point buy roll doesn't cause feelings of animosity between players (That is what d20's are for!).

[@GameNubQuin]

Didn't Dark Suns do 5d4 or something weird for stats?

[@Gullpped]

GameNub Quin 2e Dark Sun did 5d4. You also started at the 3rd level. That setting was harder than the other settings though.

[@Daredhnu]

you needed those stats because as gullpped said the setting was harder, like average characters died, Dark Sun was the epitome of survival of the fittest when it came to D&D characters.

[@Mike-os3pt]

5 to 20 as a results with 12.5 as average? Sounds pretty good. 3d6 gives 3 to 18 with 10.5 as average.

[@clarkside5315]

Okay, if you have to give yourself safety nets, like a seventh roll and ignore the lowest out of the seven sets or just ignore scores of 10 or lower, you don't just sound like you're just trying to eek out great stats. You ARE trying to eek out great stats. If you get a set of crappy scores, you're not keeping them and you roll again until you get something good. There's no consequence to the randomness. You are randomly good at most stuff and randomly great at the rest. By that point, why not just drop the charade and say, "a single 18, a pair of 16s, a pair of 14s and the rest are 13s." Or increase the points you get from Point Buy? That's certainly more than what the Player's Handbook considers standard, which would be a 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. That's the range the game generally expects your scores to be in and they aren't a bad set. They're just not ridiculously close to being maxed out for your character, which is 20 in 5th Edition and the first time (that I know of) that there's been an official cap on ability scores in D&D.

[@kurojima]

yeah they are definitely fooling themselves with their cheaty "roll system" - to many safety nets, they might as well just get incredible stats, and then just have no flaws whatsoever - but this video explains why they put feats so much above ability score improvement - with their stupid system of course they dont ever need to improve their stats, they can just stack power gain and kill dragons left and right, all the while actually robing themselves of any challenge

Rolling is stupid, if you roll a bad character, just scrap it makes no sense. Point buy and average hitpoints all the way. Game theory supports this improvement of the old unbalanced rolling system. Players roll for actions (attack, damage, influence, etc), no need to do double randomness...

[@Zevallo13]

Or hey, maybe just let people play how they wanna play.

[@mada1082]

Definitely sounded like two powergamers looking to do hack n slash over play an RPG... Sounds like they're better suited to videogames in my opinion. In 5e you only need your one stat to make your build useful. So we've been running rolls, then if everyone has their 18s and someone is stuck with 4 13s a 9 and a 14, I let everyone around the table roll for them once and they get to replace one of their middle stats with the highest roll... I guess I prefer a more story based game around the actual stats though.

[@Unahim]

Well, I let my group do 4d6, drop lowest, do 2 sets and pick one of those. Here's their stats at level 4 (so first score improvement is in), after racials: - 10, 15, 17, 18, 13, 11: Can get this with point buy, just the 13 and 11 at the end will be lower (which are total dump stats for this character) - 8, 20, 14, 11, 10, 14: Prodigy at one stat, the rest are bad or average. - 8, 14, 16, 12, 11, 18: Pretty average - 18, 11, 14, 7, 12, 16: pretty average : 18, 18, 18, 10, 10, 10: Best rolls I've ever seen! (Yes, all my players must roll straight in front of the entire group, rolling stats is always a fun group experience, it's exciting for everyone) I jokingly refer to this character's legendary abs during play. He's been down in the dirt with 0 hp most of all though, bad rolls during the game can really cramp your style! So yeah, none of this stuff is breaking the game, 4/5 of these really aren't any stronger than point buy, or just barely so. (Remember that they all have +2 ASI applied already, and this is with racial stats.) My players prefer to roll because they like the excitement, and they claim it leads to interesting characters sometimes when someone has several very low stats. *shrugs* I also throw quite crazy encounters their way, so even if they had a bit of stat benefit, it's more than made up for in DM severity. ^^

[@MalevolentDivinity]

I kinda want to try a 6 5d6 roll. Where you roll five dice. You either pick the middle three, the top three, or the bottom three, but for every time you pick the top three you have to choose the bottom three once. ... And by process of elimination, if you choose the middle three, you have to do so again at some point, because there is an even number of rolls. ...... Or maybe 8 5d6. With the method described above, and at the end, you drop two of the numbers. If you drop the lowest, you have to drop the highest. Second lowest-highest, third lowest-highest, or the middle pair. Dunno if it's fair though.

[@khartog01]

Point buy grew on me when I started Pathfinder. Though I feel it limits certain classes. Combined with the right race mitigates that I suppose.

[@nodddyyyy]

What about 4D6, drop lowest and reroll 1s?

[@JPruinc]

Sounds good to me!

[@larrythetigerdones]

That's what our DM let us use way back in 2nd edition, and the dice loved me. Our parties were pretty stacked stat wise. DM figured that to become truly epic heroes, required above average people to begin with so that is the method he preferred. There was none of the adding points upon leveling up that seems to exist in the newer versions, so you were stuck with what you rolled. Unless of course you took your chances with The Deck of Many Things or some other possibly risky magic.

[@TheVergile]

why though? Its kinda useless to have random dice rolls to then try and regulate the randomness. If you dont like randomness go standard array of point buy. At this point players only roll because they want to powergame and random rolls have a chance of giving better stats overall than standard array or point buy. Im sure this is fine for some DMs, but for me ill do my bets to immediately block this kind of behaviour.

[@dimofamo]

it looks to me like a fighter with 13 strenght could make it, while a wizard imposing a saving throw of 11 is totally crippled... I rolled a pathfinder cleric with his wisdom 13 (and it was his best roll) and he still was a pillar for his group, it's not going to be the same in D&D.

[@Thantrax]

Once upon a time, my gaming groups were divided as to point buy vs rolling. I was an advocate for point buy. A couple of the DMs were advocates for rolling. One game, I rolled up a character with stats of 7, 8, 9, 6, 12, 10. A new houserule was implemented, rolling below a certain threshold was implemented so I wouldn't play adventurers that wore clothes and punched monsters until they died until I rolled a character with decent scores. Therefore, rolling bad stopped being a thing. One game, a player sat down and rolled the following stats, before my own eyes, and the eyes of our roll advocating DM. 18, 18, 18, 17, 16, 15. The DM told them these were too high, and wanted the player to reroll. I championed our high rolling player, told them that if random dice rolls were how we wanted to play, then the player had a right to play a god among men this game. From that day forward, all my games have been point buy.

[@blablubb4553]

I found that giving players the option to choose a standard array from the book keeps their stats balanced and everybody happy because the distribution of stat points remains fair.

[@danjal87nl]

I'm strongly in favor of rolling - with the caveat that the GM ought to keep an eye on party balance. Offering rerolls for extreme outliers making sure the party is on roughly the same level. (Getting the equivalent of a 15 point by rolled by one player and a 40+ by another is gonna cause issues most likely.) WIth that in mind, with a competitive and combat oriented group that cares less about roleplay and story point buy definitely has a place. Similarly if you're going for a quick one-off or similar short style runs being able to pick from an array or using point buy has benefits. But at the end of the day I can't help but feel that point buy inherently will lead to stat dumping and following standardized creation.

[@onijester56]

With a story-driven or roleplay-driven group, point-buy allows customization and choice in the creation of the character. With Point-Buy, I have a Goliath Sorcerer who dumped Intelligence in order to be equally well-off in Strength (for bashing people over the head), Dexterity (for defense), Charisma (for spellcasting), and Constitution (because that seemed thematically appropriate). With Point-Buy, I have never met another Half-Elf Bard structured as my Half-Elf Bard. Even among other Valor Bards, who may tend towards Strength or Dexterity for combat instead of focusing on their spellcasting to give them the edge in a fight. (i.e. Greater Invisibility for advantage on attacks, Polymorph as an offensive and defensive tactic, sectioning enemies off with Wall of Stone, removing troublesome enemies with enchantments). I have met people who played Wizards that dumped both Strength and Wisdom, and Wizards that didn't dump anything. I've met people who played muscle-headed Barbarians that dumped all their mental stats to pump their physical abilities, and people who played Barbarians that dropped only a single stat for both roleplaying and logistical reasons. ----- In fact, stat-dumping is much worse with rolling since you aren't guaranteed good stats alongside the bad stats. You can easily roll a character with rolling (even with 4d6, drop 1) that has no score above 11. Wait, did I say you? I meant the entire table I let roll stats. Except for the one guy who didn't have a score below 14, of course. "But then you should have them reroll if their stats are that bad!" Because if they want to reroll until they get good stats, then why not just have good stats to start with? ----- Hell, Point-Buy is nice because it allows everyone to have good stats, and if they want to improve a little in a specific stat or two then they have to pay the cost of being a little worse in a different stat or two. Their choices matter from the start, they aren't permanently penalized for bad luck, and they need fewer safety-nets or caveats to save them should something go unexpectedly wrong in the process.

[@user-dn5di4ol2l]

It is a lot faster to have everyone use point buy and for hit die use the values in the brackets, it is god as you can make your PC at your home and just bring it with you without having to sit with the GM and roll everything.

[@jaysw9585]

I have found with point buy, it allows players to be more creative in later levels as they multi-class and choice feats.

[@zoid5911]

4d6, take top 3 is my favorite. I got a crazy cool Gnome Bard. Most of her stats are above 15, but she has a 6 strength. It is really fun and great for roleplaying. Needless to say her best friend is a barbarian ^_^

[@CrashSable]

If you are ignoring the characters that have awful stats, then why are you rolling at all? You might as well just start with 18 in everything. Why not just say you rolled that and have the DM boost the monsters appropriately? Alternatively, you could just use point buy, pick the stats you're willing to drop and go from there. Can we also not pretend that 4d6 drop lowest is actually superior statistically? That's a myth that nobody can be bothered to check. If you actually work it out based on the minimum desired stats being what point buy can give you (at least one 15, two 14s and three stats you don't care about before applying racial bonuses), then you should realise getting that as a minimum happens less than 0.1% of the time. If you only care about two good stats, 4d6 drop lowest is more likely to be higher, but point buy gives you three, so that's the floor I use and rolling gives worse stats 999 times out of 1000. Seriously, try working it out!

[@frankrobinsjr.1719]

Liking characters with some flaws, I am currently running a Half-Elf Knowledge Domain Cleric with a strength of 7 for an online game. I chose Half-Elf because I had a sixteen and two seventeens and the languages. Putting sixteen in charisma and a seventeen in wisdom and constitution gave me three eighteens and two of them were in my primary stats. I chose the Knowledge Domain for the extra languages. I spoke with the GM and the other players as we went over character concepts and everyone liked the idea. I take disadvantage in any physical combat and only use my cane as a weapon. That character is still alive after four levels, still smart, and still raises hell against the undead.

[@adamwest7882]

You guys are the best!! I am new to D&D and I reference your videos whenever I have a question. Keep making them sweet sweet videos!!

[@WebDM]

Thanks!! Welcome to the hobby! Glad we can help

[@jeremybrooks7415]

Our group allowed you to pick your class, roll 4d6 but could make your class most important stat be 18. You could also subtract 2 from 1 to raise another by 1. This was 2nd edition by the way.

[@olemlund]

I really don't like when player characters have 20 in anything at level 1.

[@TheVergile]

tho realistically speaking it is very unlikely for people to get better as the adventure goes on. Most humans hit peak performance between age 18 and 24 and start deteriorating at age 26. (proficiency/experience is a different topic and is mirrored by the class/proficiency progression). It kinda doesnt make sense for heroes to start with low physical stats and significantly increase them later on. If someone is extremely dexterous chances are he has already been so from a young age.

[@TheVergile]

tho gameplay-wise i get why you dislike it

[@olemlund]

@@TheVergile W/E is a game

[@tussalgull5986]

@@TheVergile doesnt really matter since the dm is gonna give npcs higher scores so they arent useless so nothing changes in the end

[@85Funkadelic]

All rolls should be made in front of the DM and logged for consistency.... Or just use point buy =)

[@TheVergile]

agreed. my players get one stat roll attempt as stated in the book (6x 4d6 drop worst) - if they dont like it they have the choice of taking the standard array. thats it. If people start arguing about stat points i already know they dont fit into the group. Im sure some DMs enjoy playing with a group of min/maxing players, but having a "normal" group with one guy that is constantly on edge about stats because he cant stand the thought of not being the biggest badass at the table is a drag.

[@oopssorryy]

My group has begun an interesting roll system. Roll two D6s, then add 6. Do this six times, then disperse the scores as you wish. No re rolls of 1s. You get a fairly large spread with an average score of 12. I prefer this to point by, and other roll styles, as it still lets you have some amount of randomness, while still allowing you to build a character concept.

[@ItsWindHere]

My group usually likes to do 5d6 re roll 1s. If you don't get what you want you re roll ALL your stats but if you do it again you have to take what the dice give in the order they come in from

[@CaseAiken]

I've always seen point buy as the realm of min-maxers, but I have DMed players who had sub-par rolls next to absolute titans so I can see the appeal.

[@SkyNinja759]

Point buy is the nice common ground between min/maxing and creative building. You are guaranteed to be balanced with the party which means no godly 18-20s compared to 14's. You can tailor it to your theme safely so no underachievers vs >10 all around with majorly boosted primaries. All this while keeping the min/maxers in check by having a maximum allowance of points, making it more of a "yeah I have a +1 over that" instead of "I have a 2-3 stat advantage because I'm super specialized". In my mind point buy is the go-to because having player power disparity before it even starts is a horrible idea. Let the power be determined by your actions and not your initial rolls at the start of the campaign.

[@CaseAiken]

I do get that and ultimately it's "Fair". My concern has always been with it empowering SAD classes and penalizing MAD ones. Which I guess more is a criticism of system design (looking at you 3.5) and less of an issue if there are appropriate trade-offs for each stat.

[@PauLtus_B]

Thing is: you can, you don't have to. Reality is that quite often you see homebrew rules to compensate for the chance of getting a terrible character by rolling (like rolling 4d6 7 times and dropping the lowest) which makes it significantly better than doing a point buy.

[@PauLtus_B]

+Case Aiken "has always been with it empowering SAD classes and penalizing MAD ones." Well you can't go higher than 15, which isn't that high. When it comes to rolling you can't predict how it'll turn out. There's also simply the case that MAD is ALWAYS more difficult. Point buy will make it more tempting to then just pick 15 15 15 8 8 8 or something and with rolling, it will just turn out in a way and you'll have to deal with that, and it will end up perfectly anyway. But that's actually not much different than just sticking to the standard array.

[@FrankStJohn-xw2wu]

Point by is the best.

[@paulelephant9521]

Always prefer random character generation, the problem with points allocation is that it encourages the minmaxing of builds and moves the game from role playing to wargaming/computer games, "have I chosen the right stats to maximise my Dps/cast the right spells?" etc, but that's just me, I don't want to spend hours carefully selecting the "best" set of abilities etc for my character, I would rather roll a few dice, make some relatively simple decisions about stat allocation and class and then get on with playing. Not that this is the only way to play however, I've also played in groups who love lavishing loads of time on creating characters with fantastically detailed abilities/backstories, and some folks love working out the most efficient magic user/fighter etc. and picking synergistic effects to make maximum use of the rules, and have enjoyed those sessions too, but I prefer a more role play heavy style that is less interested in the detailed mechanics of the game.

[@G-Blockster]

I played in a 2nd ed. AD&D game once where I wanted to play a ranger, but my Ability Score die rolls were too low to qualify. So, I made him an assassin instead with the Tracking and Hunting skills. He actually held his own with the other rangers in the party until we hit 4th level. That being said, I have become a big fan of the Point Buy method. I've made three radically different characters using exactly the same character concept.

[@wintcook8596]

Point buy feels far more munchkiny than rolling, I'm not sure why you feel its the other way around.

[@JPruinc]

Because we are all individuals, with unique perspectives informed by our own personal life experiences. Here's how I see it. With Point By all players have the same opportunity and resources to create characters that are comparable in power and start on even footing. With rolling, someone could end up with all average stats and another playing could have a couple of 18's. It's not guaranteed, but it is possible to end with an immensely powerful character. I'm a power gamer and I prefer rolling. To each their own.

[@shino4242]

lol at the people acting like their way is the only way and everyone who rolls dice is the devil. Guts, you don't like rolling? fine. nobody is forcing you to roll. if we have fun rolling, then let us roll and stop acting so stuck up about it, like we're all making some terrible mistake by playing a game the way we want to play it. you realize how much homebrew stuff and house rules and the like people make? D&D is not a hard set in stone game. The books and everything are merely tools for us to shape a game the players will have fun with. a foundation. to act like there is only "one way and everyone else is doing it wrong and is less fun and pure because we say so" is just silly.

[@GodLikeDevil]

I guess the method also depends on the type of campaign you want to run. If it's high a fantasy, LOTR flavored campaign, where heroes are truly exceptional beings and the like, rolling for the better chance of generating higher stats might be the juice you need to realize that vision. If the campaign leans more towards grim-and-gritty, ASOFAI/GoT influences, then point-buy is better for generating characters that may have 1 or 2 high ability scores, but are otherwise normal in all other aspects, or perfectly average characters, or flawed ones.

[@skullsquad900]

Whether I'm a PC or a DM, Standard Array or Point Buy, everytime. I found it helps keep pc's from saying, "That's not fair, I coulda done that, if I didn't roll such shitty stats!"

[@Dyfuka]

aw yiss

[@cariocaemfuria3946]

Always point buy. Why do something random when you can plan the result you want? Character power levels are a variable on the story. Why the GM shouldn't optimize it according with the type of campaign? (From the horrible random ways to determine stats, 7x 4d6, ordered freely, is the least terrible, but it still creates unecessary unbalance between characters. Seriously, why a player should such a huge advantage just out of luck? )

[@Unahim]

I've played some games (not D&D) where we generated the entire character, stats, skills and background events, randomly, using a lot of tables. In one of those, we even played without ever being told any rules of the game! Only the DM knew the rules and our exact stats, we just roleplayed and got vague indications ("You're quite strong", "You've never lost at arm wrestling", etc...) It was one of the best campaigns I was ever in. The funny thing was, my character was looked up to by the party and always did great in combat, but when the campaign ended, the stats were revealed and she was decidedly average. I'd just been rolling really well all along! She was just a lucky person i guess. ^^

[@darklyXlit]

Pedro Fernandez some people prefer rolling for stats BECAUSE they don't know what they're going to get. Finding your character can be just as fun as making one and designing them for some people.

[@witchBoi_Connor]

I remember you guys mentioning your way of rolling is 4d6 drop the lowest, 7 times and slot in the numbers. I really like this method, I like being open to a low stat and a high stat. If point buy went up and down to at least 16 and 6, I probably wouldn’t be as critical of it as I am. But it doesn’t, it doesn’t allow you to get a full headstart on your primary stat unless you’re a race that gives you that bonus and it doesn’t let you have a -2 modifier unless you’re playing kobold or orc (and screw those two for having negative ability scores).

[@dmstretch6634]

Point buy all the way for me but I always balance it out to suit the character rather than min/max or power game. I like to find that middle ground.