'The Boys' Comic Was Kinda Terrible

[@SH2K9]

"...too much hate towards something can become just as annoying and intolerable as the thing it's making fun of," That really *is* a good moral.

[@anxietyplague]

That's one quote I promise you 99.99% people won't follow

[@WTFisTingispingis]

_Thank you._

[@Introvertsan]

Very true they are more annoying than what they claim is annoying

[@chrisa5180]

jellybean hate in a nutshell

[@SH2K9]

@@Introvertsan Obligatory "T H I S"

[@Dootdodeet]

I will be forever in awe that a show that makes fun of the absolute soullessness of big corporations was published by Amazon of all people.

[@mahtim]

It just adds depth 🤌

[@paulsmart4672]

Capitalism turns even anticapitalist sentiment into a product. It's a whole thing.

[@kvassinc]

Everything is fine as long as they count money. So there is no reason for them to interfere with creative freedom.

[@nathanmeagher7869]

It’s called recuperation

[@BubblesTheBard]

i mean, one of the most evil people on the show just happens to look and act like Alexandria Ocasia-Cortez, even down to Homelander mentioning a "funny little dance video". AOC blocked Amazon from putting their second HQ in new york because it was gonna raise taxes on her constituents while Amazon would have made $140K PER WORKER from tax kickbacks. they definitely interefered in the writing. that shit was *targeted*

[@danielwood6833]

Considering how much we see “what if Superman were evil”s , I still found the show’s Homelander to be really refreshing. Not just because his character is so evil, yet complex and interesting, but also because it’s evident that they aren’t just banking on the idea “if Superman were real he’s be evil”. They recognise what made a lonely Kal El good was his being raised by loving parents who instilled him with good values, and Homelander is the result of the thought “what if instead Superman was raised from birth by corporate America”.

[@stefanradebach2889]

That is what makes the "Evil Superman" trope work so well with The Boys because it focuses on a very integral aspect of Superman's character: the way they were raised. Superman being raised with love and instilled with moral values is what made him righteous hero. Homelander meanwhile is not only raised in a lab without any love or compassion but unlike Clark he isn't instilled with good values but instead with "American values" which on top of being very superficial and shallow concepts of what constitutes good morals also happen to contain large amounts of nationalistic thinking in the idea of "American exceptionalism" in that America is special and above all other nations and people since they are "unique" which at it's core concept is a racist and supremacist ideology that they have the god given right to do what they ever want. The result is that of a sociopath who thinks he is above everyone and can do whatever he wants because these are the values he has been raised with and that i think is another crucial aspect for why Homelander is a well written "Evil Superman" type of character due to how this type of writing shows and explores how ultra-nationalism disguised as "American values" can corrupt a person into being an egotistical supremacist who believes they are above everyone and can do whatever they want which is not only a major problem with America but also other nations where this sort of mentality has led to war, oppression and atrocities. It's this exploration of psychology and mentality from real life in someone like Homelander that makes him an engaging and interesting villain.

[@countjondi9672]

​@@morbonator5091 I personally have mixes opinions on Red Son. I like the idea that of a Soviet Superman that would feel the need to take out Stalin, but the subsequent dictator superman feels way off to his previous behaviors in a hamfisted way.

[@morbonator5091]

@@countjondi9672 Alright, fair enough. Even without having read it myself I can certainly see just from the premise how it might be... let's say an *acquired taste*, regardless of how well it was or wasn't done.

[@danielwood6833]

@Muttering Jim notice how I specified “raised by corporate America” is what I find interesting. That specific concept. Not “wasn’t raised by loving parents” or “good turned evil” like Injustice.

[@Kaiserboo1871]

@@countjondi9672 I’ve always believed that Kal El should be written as a person that represents the very best person that the society that raised him could possibly produce. Even in regimes that were horrible and cruel he would represent the very best of that society, and this includes Stalin's Russia or Hitler's Germany. Personally, I’d like to see what a Superman raised in previous civilizations would look like. We’ve already seen a Superman raised by Stalin's Russia and Hitler's Germany, so I want to see how other civilizations would raise him. Some ideas I’ve had included 1. Ancient Egypt 2. Ancient Athens 3. Ancient Rome 4. Bourbon France 5. Antebellum South (he would be 18 when the Civil War starts) 6. Imperial China 7. Victorian Britain

[@Yggi11]

If I ever read the headline "Comic Book Writer Arrested For Throwing Own Faeces At Little Boy In Spider-Man Costume", I'll know who it was.

[@mrblack5627]

God dang this made me laugh harder than I expected 😂😂😂

[@Elchamuc020]

So who is it

[@monalisa-he1gg]

​@@Elchamuc020j jona Jamison

[@mothost6929]

The Boys TV show was made to be like a playful joke on superheroes, the MCU and even the media. Meanwhile The Boys Comic feels like a death threat to the very concept of superheroes itself.

[@lockerbuddy2039]

Hell, it even seems to poke at Amazon at times, it's enjoyable to see.

[@dimensionzone8048]

Dude if I could shake your hand I would. You said it better than I ever could with that phrase. Also it's a joke on DC as well. Dawn of the 7 was only the tip of the iceberg they mocked for DC movies

[@lol_no_man]

That's actually why I prefer the comic to be honest.

[@BuNnyDuDeDaRoO]

Recent MCU is playful jokes on auperheroes (falcon wintersoldier) and The Boys is actual satire about superheroes ASWELL as politics and media

[@dimensionzone8048]

@@BuNnyDuDeDaRoO The Falcon and the Winter Soilder was anything but a playful joke on superheroes though. If anything it was series take on social order and perception with superheroes as clearly examplfed with Isaiah's character. Amongst the other shows

[@bendaydot6733]

Ennis’ hatred for Captain America never made much sense to me. I remember him saying that he believes Captain America disrespects all the men who fought and died during WWII, I would almost buy that if it weren’t for the fact that Captain America was created by two guys who served in WWII and the character was an important inspirational figure for other men who served in WWII as well.

[@HankJWimbleton-v1m]

You know, it's really funny how Ennis thought that Captain America is disrespectful to the soldiers who fought in World War II when he was created before America entered the war, by two real-life military veterans (one of which was a draftsman for reconnaissance maps), and was actually quite popular with American servicemen... yet he's a huge WWII history buff who never actually had any military experience, to begin with. It also doesn't help that the whole thing about Captain America being insulting to actual World War II veterans also comes across as hypocritical, comsidering how some of Ennis's own comics (particularly Adventures of the Rifle Brigade) feel far more disrespectful to the actual servicemen.

[@crows_are_superior4464]

It’s because Cap is against war. He preaches tolerance and love for everyone involved in war, as both sides have victims. Ennis just wants a one dimensional pro military dickhead, so he hates cap

[@prawngravy18]

If you are looking for an sense in arguing with someone that clearly wasnt mentally 100% then you must be fucking insanely delusional.

[@halfmettlealchemist8076]

See, if his criticism of Cap was more along the lines of his existence unintentionally glorifying American exceptionalism or whitewashing away the more unpleasant aspects of American history and government, he may have had a point there. And even then, there are several Captain America storylines dedicated to deconstructing those very concepts, and even ones where Steve forsakes the American government entirely in favor of siding with the oppressed, which would disprove that point. But instead he sticks to this weird stance about Cap somehow disrespecting actual WWII vets and I just…that doesn’t even _begin_ to make sense to me.

[@ilikestuff9250]

​@laverdadescatolica5Follow your leader

[@maximuffin6395]

“You hate superheroes? You could use this comic as a commentary on the genre instead of mindlessly killing superheroes” Garth: “I don’t wanna make a commentary, I wanna kill superheroes!”

[@patrickgamblin3734]

I understood that reference.

[@elfascisto6549]

I mean if killing superheroes was all that the comic was, it would be better than what we have

[@hippopilot6750]

Forced reference

[@maximuffin6395]

@@hippopilot6750 It's a YT comment, what do you expect?

[@jongyon7192p]

For 10 years at least!

[@Pensive_Scarlet]

If I ever meet Garth Ennis in person, my greeting will be exactly this: "Whoa, aren't you that guy that wrote all those superhero comics?"

[@Whatisthishandle-v1l]

He'll definitely get mad!😂😂

[@Dreigonix]

Hey Scarlet! Yes, I think I will do that too. XD

[@Pensive_Scarlet]

@@Whatisthishandle-v1l I'd like to think he'd actually have a sense of humor about it, since he's clearly a bit of a troll himself.

[@Pensive_Scarlet]

@@Dreigonix Hey! If it ever happens, let me know how it goes. Hopefully he gets a good laugh. ;D

[@VictorIV0310]

Well, his Superman run was pretty solid, I’ll say.

[@patron8597]

I think it's funny that the bad guys in a "dark and serious comic, for jaded adults like me" are more cartoonishly evil than the villains of an 80s cartoon.

[@error-try-again-later]

Seriously, if these characters had moustaches they'd be too busy twirling them to do crimes 💀

[@XSniper74184]

I mean at least Starscream was funny. Little backstabber always wanted to be the leader... What I'm saying is Starscream would have been a worse character if he also just ate babies.

[@ProjektTaku]

80s cartoon villains can a fun personalities however and even a fun dynamic with their heroic counterparts. Compare that to the boys supe fodder who do crazy acts for no reason and then die.

[@jasminelovespink]

Like Dr. Wily. @@error-try-again-later

[@vanyadolly]

@@XSniper74184 And there was some genuine complexity in why the hell Megatron kept Starscream around. A mystery for the ages.

[@Robbstark2024]

The boys comic seems like what parents say to kids about not using the word “hate”. It shows the ugly underbelly of what hatred can produce, especially if it is the dominant factor in motivation.

[@concept5631]

Huh. Never thought of it that way.

[@Platypus4321]

Ironic that Billy The Butcher takes his hatred of superheroes too far, but so does his creator, Garth Ennis.

[@firstlast9846]

I’d imagine The Boys (Comic) is the same but I remember reading more adult comics ages ago.. like Crossed and The Walking Dead - and some of the things that take place seemed to be more in service of shock value than it was in service of story.. and it just made me think why think up these sick things - just for it to not really go anywhere

[@rgw7345]

It's also the reason parody must always come from a place of love, not hate. Invincible is also a deconstruction of super hero comics, but unlike The Boys, it then tries to reconstruct it.

[@lsixty30]

so interesting, i was just saying "i hate blank" a lot in dms to a friend and i was reminded of this. hate really is a strong, and ugly, word. should be reserved for when it is appropriate or effective, not splattered around like a baby seal on the surface of the ocean by a playful orca.

[@marlom7882]

"It's like Billy Butcher is Ennis's cool OC that exists to act out violent revenge fantasies against fictional people" Yea sounds about right

[@SomeYouTubeTraveler]

"It's not Punisher! It's my own original character, Blunisher!"

[@Jakepearl13]

He’s diet punisher,but with super-heroin in his veins

[@shizachan8421]

As a Girl reading the boys, Butcher always came off to me like the self-insert fantasy of incels who unironically use the term alpha male.

[@marlom7882]

@@shizachan8421 hehe damn. Accurate but still damn

[@marlom7882]

@@shizachan8421 wait a minute … what’s a girl?

[@SadisticDouble]

I actually like the IDEA of Homlander getting gaslight into going insane bc Noir was trying to fulfill his original intention for being created of stopping a rogue Homelander. Issue is the execution and I don't believe it's ever foreshadowed

[@datacrusader5598]

It is foreshadowed several times (the comic where Black Noir reveals himself even flashes back to some of that foreshadowing), but a good amount of it can be easily missed. Examples: Black Noir surviving falling off the plane on 9/11, Black Noir being the exact same size/body when HL tricks Maeve into having sex with Noir, Noir can just barely be seen outside the building when Butcher is stabbing Jack for killing his dog (the implication being that it was Noir who killed the dog to help accelerate things)

[@jrloulanza6534]

​@@datacrusader5598Those felt like red herrings and we expected a more surprising twist shame on you Garth Ennis I hope you become a supervillain after the nuclear warfare of World War III that's coming soon.

[@dendostar5436]

“You will never hate superheroes more than Garth Ennis.” That’s a bitchin’ thesis statement.

[@comixproviderftw_02]

That’s pretty much accurate

[@JIMT412]

FACTS. Besides, his other works were ok

[@dendostar5436]

@@comixproviderftw_02 Word.

[@MisterUnknown707]

@@JIMT412 *were

[@JIMT412]

@@MisterUnknown707 thanks, stupid corrector

[@GambeTama]

I once heard a phrase about the deconstruction of superheroes, and I think this comic embodies it perfectly: "The difference between satire and edgy/bad commentary is whether or not the writer actually understands the thing that they are parodying."

[@yuvalgabay1023]

Reminds me of a sentence some one told :" before you play whit the box you should anderstand the box"

[@bigbearkat2010]

I think Mel Brooks has mentioned to make a good parody you need to have some kind of love for the material

[@Erisblackstone]

Garth Ennis literally was a major comic book writer.

[@martincann5052]

@@Erisblackstone Who has hated superheroes since childhood.

[@GambeTama]

@@Erisblackstone True, but taking his works and opinions on superheroes into consideration, it seems like he has a fairly narrow view/opinion of the genre. His work oozes disdain, and is not a deconstruction, but a tear-down. By contrast, Allan Moore also isnt very fond of superheroes, but he clearly respects their cultural significance and importance. Watchmen had heavy themes about the mentality of people who become or want to become superheroes, and how they handle a very harsh and unforgiving world of war and politics. Even "The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen," which is a book about bad characters, is about them demonstrating how much more complex they are as people. Garth just seems to have a very Freudian view of people in his books as inherently selfish and cruel, and that those with power will immediately use it to do the most selfish and cruel things. It's a comparatively very shallow and needlessly harsh way of looking at things, because even the most basic of comic fans can say "this is a strawman argument at absolute best." I think the TV show leaning more into the corporatism angle is a huge reason why people took to it so well, because it still feels like it is taking heroes seriously, but now in the context of celebrity culture and the kinds of pressures that puts on a person who may not truly understand how deep they're in until it is too late.

[@samfivedot]

Garth Ennis is such a confusing writer to me. On the one hand he can write something like the Slavers arc in Punisher MAX, which is incredibly dark (even for that comic), but also a realistic depiction of human trafficking that manages to be thoughtful and empathetic towards the victims. You can tell Ennis was furious when he wrote it, but even so he never loses that empathy. And then in The Boys, Butcher trains his dog to sexually assault people.

[@jbeast3385]

Rereading a lot of Ennis’s work showed that he has a really messed up perception of SA victims that occasionally shows a degree of empathy, but it also comes off as condescending at best or downright callous at worse. Almost all of his female central characters not only get SA’d in the works, but also tend to be gratuitously sexualized. It’s an uncomfortable dynamic that was already under critique when Preacher came out. But then he also has “less manly” male characters get SA’d for outright comical purposes or just to denigrate them. The Boys comic has an entire segment where Hughie gets assaulted by Black Noir, and when he admits it to the Boys, they laugh at him and tell him it’s funny, don’t expect sympathy.

[@HankJWimbleton-v1m]

@@jbeast3385 If you read Crossed, you'll realize that Ennis's depiction of sexual harassment is worse than you think. Aside from the excessive gore, there are several scenes of rape everywhere because the Crossed are obviously known for raping absolutely every person and anything they see (including children, animals, dead people, and even inanimate objects if I remember correctly). Unlike The Boys, this one is highly degrading because of how vividly it is represented and how it appears to exist solely to degrade characters (mostly female ones). Every single fucking detail is shown in the scenes of sodomy, rape, pedophilia, necrophilia, bestiality, etc. What's worse is that it seemingly tries to be funny even though absolutely no one in their right mind would laugh at it. On that point, there's also a lot of explicit nudity that's displayed in graphic detail far too often, which also includes underaged children too. LET THAT FUCKING SINK IN.

[@jbeast3385]

@@HankJWimbleton-v1m Oh, I’ve read Crossed ages ago. Probably the first comic I’ve had to put down because it outright just was ruining my mental state, and I say this having seen plenty of gore and horrific shit online. Crossed just hits the line of redundancy, to be honest. I read the first plot line and some of the Badlands materials, and every single one of them feels like they’re trying to tell you “no, all this butchery has a greater meaning behind it”, and the greater meaning is “man’s the real monster” every single time. Rinse and repeat, the only variation is whatever corpse they ripped out of a medical textbook. Don’t bother getting attached to any characters, they’ll either die horribly or turn out to be a secret pedophile or something. I honestly wouldn’t even consider it a horror work, because it just kinda repulses the reader with sheer charnel house gore rather than using subtlety, nuance, or tension. It’s like a comedian who only makes people laugh by tickling them.

[@HankJWimbleton-v1m]

​@@jbeast3385 ​Yeah, Crossed is just fucking dogshit. There are constant revolting scenes that make it very difficult to stomach for just about anyone, and I am honestly surprised this wasn't made into an underground comic. Don't get me wrong, I think the premise of a society overrun by a virus that turns people into sadistic psychopaths could've been legitimately interesting and fun, but Garth Ennis himself is far more interested in being as shocking, offensive, and "edgy" as possible rather than actually writing a good story. While Garth Ennis has written plenty of violent comics over a few decades, at least those have good writing (most of the time, anyway), a message, and a darkly humorous tone. In contrast, Crossed takes itself WAY too seriously. Some of the stories lack an ending at all, with only the interesting stuff and some other character or plot development happening in dialogue instead. The whole series is on the same level as A Serbian Film where it's literally nothing more than an endless parade of brutality and torture porn that revels in the worst aspects of humanity and takes itself way too seriously to the point where it can be challenging to enjoy, even if you're desensitized to gore and violence. That being said, however, it's also extremely hard to be all that fazed by all the blood, guts, and absurdly over-the-top violence, either. Ironically enough, the Berserk manga is actually WAY more violent, disturbing, and sexual than Crossed ever could but at least all of them work in favor of producing a compelling story and doesn't really come across as unlikeable or mean-spirited in comparison.

[@jbeast3385]

@@HankJWimbleton-v1m Berserk’s a great point of contrast. Someone once described Berserk as a work that strives to take the sheer depravity inherent of mankind and balance it with its amazing potential for compassion and healing. In many ways, Guts and Casca are subject to some of the worse traumas the world have to offer, and it wounds them harder than anyone can put to words. But despite it all, they still strive to make something of it, and I think that’s what makes them so beautiful.

[@robotfox989]

I read a comment somewhere that says "Shows and comics that are meant for kids and teenagers are more mature than the ones that were made for adults" I guess Adults or to be fair "most Adults" believes that if a show or a comic doesn't have violence, sex, swearing, and other disturbing stuffs every 5 minutes then it's for babies... No wonder the term Man-child exists

[@senittoaoflightning4404]

Yeah, "adult" TV and such think that sex is a punchline.

[@robotfox989]

@@senittoaoflightning4404 I'm around 20s myself and honestly sometimes adults are weirder than kids or teenagers

[@mhmtakeyatime9000]

Sooo accurate.

[@e.s.r5809]

I was just thinking this is a reason Star Wars: Andor works for me lol. That Disney logo forcing it to stay PG-14. So without shock value shortcuts, it can tell you its world is miserable and unfair in the three words "I can't swim". Similarly, while I think The Boys' campy gore is fun, I think the show's real impact is in moments like Starlight revealing Deep's assault, only to watch it get turned into a cynical girl-power marketing campaign. Shock value isn't maturity, mature storytelling is doing the legwork to make your emotional beats hit home.

[@Pablowanjedi]

@@e.s.r5809 Just came here to say I appreciate your take on Andor. The Prison arc is one of my favorite Star Wars things ever. Well, Andor pretty much is one of my favorite Star Wars ever, because of how great the writing is. Remember when those two imperial officers were talking about the way they destroyed a native community by poisoning its rituals and celebrations (The whole "Eye" thing)? They perfectly revealed their characters, personalities, the insidious ways a fascist force can subdue entire populations while giving us exposition on the state of things on that planet. All in the span of a casual conversation that doesn't feel forced at all. That's what I think adult writing feels like. I felt as emotionally moved as I felt respected by Andor.

[@rebeccaaustin6667]

>piece of media claims to be a deconstruction >looks inside >contempt for the genre

[@aca347]

Best deconstructions are usually done by people who love the genre but recognize the cliches.

[@BradleytheDavis]

Sounds like Doki Doki Literature Club

[@auxy6858]

​@@BradleytheDavis How in any way does this remind you of DDLC?

[@BradleytheDavis]

@@auxy6858 Some ppl like to say that DDLC was written with either contempt or lack of respect for the medium of visual novels, so it tries to comment on and be critical of the way to handles their tropes and multiple route storylines.

[@undercookedtoast1479]

@@aca347Definitely. I always like to say being an actual diehard fan of something means you can recognize the flaws and failings of that media while still loving it regardless. Hating something is easy, and can be done without ever really understanding anything about it.

[@Mediados]

The Boys show really embraced the idea of "How would a random person act if they just got super powers." instead of "What if everyone was evil?"

[@HankJWimbleton-v1m]

Hal Stewart/Tighten from Megamind is also a great example of what would realistically happen if an average nobody got superpowers. It's not that superpowers makes you evil, it's just that it cranks up the inner desires that had always been there since the beginning.

[@yellowandbrown1864]

yeah. what if someone was raised where no actions of theirs had any consequences while being constantly coddled mixed in with huge amounts of fame. They'd turn into an asshole, like a train and the deep. Now add some horrific child hood trauma into the mix and you get a psychopath, like homelander.

[@juniperrodley9843]

@@HankJWimbleton-v1m FR. The powers didn't make Hal a bad person, they just allowed him to take the bad actions he always wanted to. Edit: rereading this now, I think it's important to kind of dispute the "cranked up" bit. Hal's desires didn't increase whatsoever after he got powers. He just suddenly had the means to pursue them through everyone else's objections.

[@meldrickedwards1892]

In reality, most people would just be using their to do trivial things in their lives. Ex: most people would just run everywhere if they had A-Train's speed. Lift heavy stuff if they had Homelander's powers, etc..

[@Mediados]

@@meldrickedwards1892 Sure, because everyone follows the rules and is an upstanding citizen all the time. Seriously, you can't believe that the average person wouldn't at least consider robbing a bank, grabbing an ATM or just take something really expensive from stores because they can. And that's not even accounting for the God complex that almost everyone would develop, which turns up narcissim to 100.

[@DrNotnert]

The Boys comic was literally just the writers sitting around a table asking "What abhorrent material can we come up with to make the readers hate being a human?"

[@chaosindustry2279]

As well as “And how much can we get away with?”

[@bryanmanuel4945]

@@chaosindustry2279 "Just go crazy. It's not like they'll ever make this into a show. Now let's get Black Noir doing even more messed up things"

[@miguelantonioreinacardona7109]

Oh please it’s Garth Ennis the we are talking about he doesn’t need help for that, the guy just sits in his table and wonder “ how much edgy can I be and also show how much I hate superheroes and love the military.

[@crimsondynamo615]

And then you pick up Crossed

[@harrylane4]

That's just what Ennis is like when he doesn't have an editor to look him in the idea and tell him his ideas are dumb. He works well with an editor.

[@ytuser_3122]

I still can’t believe Ennis made Charles Xavier: The Martin Luther King Jr mutant figure who YEARNED for humanity and mutant kind to coexist in peace, into a p3do and making a hero as brave and selfless as Captain America be a wimpy and scared character compared to how the show made Soldier Boy the antithesis of Cap by making him rude and selfish.

[@Yggi11]

Ennis is an edgelord. A middle aged man emotionally frozen as an angry thirteen year old who thinks being a vulgar, hateful cynic makes him look smart.

[@ShaggyDabbyDank]

Nah, Soldier Boy was just like if you took a rando and made him into Captain America. That's about how the average guy, especially from his time period, would react to gaining superpowers. Especially considering he was the first superhero created by Vought.

[@bryanguerrero1067]

@@Yggi11bro but have you ever read punisher born? HAVE YOU EVER READ PUNISHER BORN.

[@Jakepearl13]

I’m resisting the urge to make a Soulja boy joke

[@NeilDegrasseTysonWithAKatana]

Yeah, that's not even a parody... that's just depicting your enemy as the soyjak... except the enemy doesn't exist because he's a fictional character... that's kinda sad

[@fricc3824]

also not to mention that the comic has terrible dialogue even in the "serious" moments but the show has such great actors/actresses for each character that it pretty much writes itself. homelanders actor is absolutely the best person who could have played him and he honestly deserves an award for it

[@blueprint7]

the dialogue in the comic is witty and insightful

[@fricc3824]

@@blueprint7 yeahhhhhh cause shoving the hard r in at every possible moment is definitely witty and insightful

[@thedarkmasterthedarkmaster]

@@fricc3824 Are you black?

[@mr.worldwide5566]

@@fricc3824 You can’t forget the classic “You fucking fucking fuck you fucked my life” in the Black Noir twist. Such witty dialogue

[@fricc3824]

@@mr.worldwide5566 immaculate wit and superb charm. never anything more astounding

[@liluziintrovert]

I really like how they turned it from an “ahh superhero’s bad” to an allegory of egotistical celebrities, using superheros

[@SoftTehCustomer]

@@notyourdaughter666 Is your pfp Rose Lalonde from Homestuck or Sabitsuki from dotflow?

[@SoftTehCustomer]

@@notyourdaughter666 I LOVE RPGMaker games (OMORI, LISA, OneShot, OFF, etc) so I felt like I saw your pfp at one point

[@kalpeshbhoir7372]

same thing then, god complex

[@auraguard0212]

Except everyone OJ Simpson, apparently...

[@Me-wx1mt]

It’s like actually making a point and not just “let’s show Superman- I MEAN… Homelander getting he shit kicked out of him”

[@JillLulamoon]

I think its amusing how much more interesting I find Billy Butcher character design in the show when he wears goofy Hawaiian shirts under the black coat compared to the comic where Billy wears black shirt, black pants, all black to show how cool and tough he is man he's so cool and tough and is too adult and cool for bright colors cause those are for freaking babies.

[@zerodollarbird]

Same for his softer edges that were completely absent in the comic. His love for the Spice Girls, "good cunt" at the church fair, his genuine care for Hughie. He's unequivocally out for revenge but he hasn't lost touch with what made him want it to begin with: his humanity.

[@MattEldritchHorror]

Also, Karl Urban makes Butcher a thousand times more aesthetically attractive than how Butcher looked in the comic.

[@somethingclever4297]

@@MattEldritchHorror Billy butcher in the show has an actually memorable design. Meanwhile in the comic he looks like the punisher's loser cousin.

[@graeeyy6080]

​@@somethingclever4297 i laughed for a good minute after reading this

[@hunterngavinmom]

the beard really does it

[@srbs1302]

As a teen growing up, I loved these comics. And when the show came out, I kept telling people “oh but you gotta read the comics!”.. and to my three friends who actually did.. well, none of them liked em. Too childish, sexist, etc. I’m afraid to go back now. The show is so good, but the comics.. well, they were juvenile fantasy. Fun, but you grow out of it.

[@galactic-hamster7043]

Fr fr, I was watching the show with a buddy of mine and I was texting my ex bf about it, and he said point blank "y'know, I feel like you'd understand this as a creative yourself but the comic was better" and I stg I regretted not breaking up with him sooner, like he hadn't even seen the show. I can understand where he was coming from, but he was taking things that he had been told about the story that weren't actually there.

[@conit4125]

I actually kinda like the idea of a genuinely good hero driven mad with guilt over horrible actions he can't remember doing and eventually committing similar atrocities of his own free will, only to discovered he wasn't the one doing them in the first place. I think it could be good if written better.

[@awesomedonut8228]

irredeemable almost did that, almost, but he did started out as a genuine hero that turned on the world

[@FireFoxGaming_]

Yeah. I do like this idea too.

[@Creepsandwicheater]

Pretty sure that is just Marvel's sentry.

[@conit4125]

@@Creepsandwicheater Nah Sentry actually has an evil alter ego and Sentry himself doesn't really fall to the dark side. This is more like a good hero turning bad then finding out everything that caused him to turn bad was a lie.

[@Creepsandwicheater]

@@conit4125 fair enough just feel like in quite a few stories he can be antagonistic as he sorta lets null/void cant recall which take control sometimes.

[@somsnosa5576]

Garth Ennis is a perculiar writer. He has some amazing ideas and great skills, but 3/4 the time he goes all the way into the "all edge no point" territory that undermines his whole work. When he manages to keep it together, he does stuff like his Hellblazer run: mature, thoughtful and touching. When he doesn't, we end up with garbage like Crossed. He's the kind of writer who really benefits from some oversight - either direct, with an editor able to tell him "GARTH NO", or indirect, like in the case of other people adapting his work into something way better, while keeping all the good parts from the original.

[@danielramsey6141]

So basically, his writing mirrors that of Frank Miller. Let’s be honest, Frank Miller has done some cool shit with his comics before, but cool doesn’t equal smart. Especially when you see him use His Sin City Graphic novel series as a way to let out his gritty Impulses. But over time, His comics like All-Star Batman, Superman Year One, Batman the Dark Knight 2, & 3. All lead him to create “HOLY TERROR!” Which is up there with “CROSSED” for being out of touch with reality! It goes to show you that these two Comic Book artists aren’t very good at telling stories, especially if they let outside events and ideas influence the Quality of their content.

[@craigthebrute8932]

@@danielramsey6141 Sin City wasn't that bad. I will say it is one of the good stuff he made along side with TDKR, Give Me Liberty, Ronin and other stuff........but yeah...he started to become crazy and made alot of crap in recent years

[@JillLulamoon]

Iirc Garth wrote a pretty heartwarming monologue from his character Hitman about why he respects Superman. It's so strange to me that Ennis can detest superheroes and make a whole comic about hating them and then be like "well Superman is ok. Batman too and Wonder Woman is alright." You perplex me Mr. Ennis.

[@HankJWimbleton-v1m]

@@JillLulamoon He does actually have a soft spot for both Spiderman and maybe Thor as well (despite his unflattering portrayal in Vikings), though. In fact, he's gone on record stating that he is more accepting of characters like Nick Fury or the Punisher, who are the most "militaristic" of them all. The only mainstream superhero that Ennis has consistently refused to write well is Wolverine, who is an idiotic collection of his own cliches every time he appears in Ennis' work (alongside Captain America and Green Lantern).

[@mudawott]

@@HankJWimbleton-v1m Maybe the other heroes he likes are because they are the best counter balance to nihilism. Spiderman and Superman are at their core just good people trying to be good and protect whoever and whatecer they can with no real allegiance to anyone but the people they want to protect

[@angelp6240]

Let's say it all together: Being a dark story doesn't make it automatically good.

[@chrisschirripa5917]

Like any story it’s how the story is told and the execution of it. Pun not intended

[@pranitp.29]

Redo of healer is an example

[@djroscurro9859]

@@pranitp.29 haven’t heard that name in 1000 years

[@thezplayer3002]

@@pranitp.29 it's not the best, but to me redo of healer is still pretty good and enjoyable

[@duhotatoday3277]

I've watched the video about Speedball "mARvEl's mOsT trAgIc HErO" and it looked more like a torture роrn than dark for a reason.

[@LoadPast]

The twist that noir is actually homelander's clone and is the REAL evil one is so stupid it feels like Ennis mocking dumb twists in western superhero canon

[@meduimrareberries5888]

I know you're probably joking, but for real - that's giving Ennis wayyyyy too much credit. Like this video summarizes quite well, Garth writes this supposed "deconstruction" with all the cleverness and nuance of a 12-year old who watched Fight Club once and is now convinced he's the most deep, most mature person ever.

[@lukedalton]

Naaa it's more that in the end Ennis realized that there were no way that his manly hard man that make hard choice had any chance to beat homelander so he needed a way and here we are...the evil clone twist

[@ShaggyDabbyDank]

Besides the fact Ennis foreshadowed the twist quite a few times in the comics, that astute readers could pick up on?

[@Da_bear-ij9gm]

@@ShaggyDabbyDankforeshadowing your stupid twist doesn’t make it less stupid

[@Vynsomnia]

The show is one of the best examples of what I wish there was more of, people making adaptations or remakes of a source material that isn't that good but has potential with its ideas, and legitimately improving upon it, instead of just remaking something that is already good and popular just to make an inferior or unnecessary product

[@tjenadonn6158]

A good example of this would be the Paul Verhoeven adaptation of Starship Troopers. If you read the original Robert Heinlein novel it's basically Atlas Shrugged In Space: less a story and more an ultralibertarian, ultramilitaristic philosophical treatise with the thinnest wisp of a plot attached to it to get people to buy it. Full on two thirds of the book takes place in civics classrooms. Paul took that starting material and reworked it into a satire of American veteran worship and the military industrial complex, resulting in a movie that is objectively a bad adaptation in terms of faithfully taking the material off the page and putting it onto film, but is a fantastic reworking of the characters and world of the novel to fit both the sci-fi blockbuster format and the more anti-hierarchical and pacifistic political outlook of its era and creator.

[@y3ee3e]

list examples of quality high concept ideas with poor executions that can be improved on?

[@lazydroidproductions1087]

@@tjenadonn6158 And yet people who vehemently defend the book and shit on the movie, missing the fact that the book is, well, hyper-libertarian pro-military to an almost fascist degree and the movie is making fun of that genre and not a serious part of it. And also, yes, while the Director never read the book, the screenwriter did.

[@jacob00white]

When remaking stuff all they need to do is keep the same themes and vibes of the original while making it it’s own thing (which the boys does well) instead of just trying to sketch the comic into reality

[@namekiz3199]

@@tjenadonn6158 ironically people at that time completely misunderstood the satire and even criticize its humoring idea which again somehow make it become a good adaptation in the end lol

[@MrMisanthrope84]

"So this comic is a cool idea for a show right?" "Yeah, you think we should adapt it faithfully" "Fuck no." Best call ever.

[@Ineedgames]

Do we think the Same for Ghost in the Shell. None of the themes of what it is to be Human are not even in the Manga.

[@GMANN9000]

Wish they did tbh

[@28br]

@@Ineedgames ok weeb

[@chroniclejim5073]

@@Ineedgames Eh?

[@yourdad5799]

@@28br Dude you're the same stop taking

[@hyuugajay]

Garth Ennis hated superheroes. His story was shitting on superheros. The show was written by people who love superheroes. They made the superheroes believable and not just "Im bad because I can be"

[@mayonnaise3959]

@@No1name234no just because he likes 3 super hero’s doesn’t mean he loves them all

[@nicknamed1267]

@@No1name234no he ONLY likes those guys tbf. He despises pretty much everyone else IIRC

[@arnahunas4048]

@@nicknamed1267 He also likes Nick Fury & Punisher & “has a soft spot for Spider-Man” apparently.

[@nicknamed1267]

@@arnahunas4048nice. thanks for the info!

[@arnahunas4048]

That’s the reason I like The Boys show, The Incredibles, Lego Batman Movie, Spider-Verse & Invincible. They’re more than willing to poke fun at superhero tropes & cliches without ever being cynical. They’re also not only good superheroes stories, they’re good stories in general that I’d recommend to pretty much anyone.

[@RetroRuss]

Antony Starr and Karl Urban are so charismatic and charming, despite both of their characters being psychopaths in their own ways.

[@matman000000]

In season 3 I loved Butcher's moment of realization after taking V. "It just made me more... me." That's the genius of the show, it portrays the heroes as what could happen to normal people with no boundaries and a bunch of suits cheering them on

[@owenleal]

The thing is that, this doesnt change his outlook towards superheroes at all. He doesnt stop seeing them as subhuman monsters who need to be eradicated. It would be interesting if he thought for a second that maybe its Vought and the compound V that need to go, rather than the people with more power than they know how to deal with and who were set up by Vought to be its puppets. I mean the superhero community is pretty analogous to Hollywood. The problem isnt the celebrities, its the circumstances under which the celebrities are created and the things they are encouraged to do in order to maintain relevance. This is an analogy that the show has set up very well, but the boys continue to focus on the Supes rather than the root of the problem and it isnt really addressed.

[@CJWproductions]

@@owenleal well yeah, Butcher is basically broken beyond repair. I'm sure the reason his powers resemble Homelander's is to drive home the fact that both of them are and always have been the worst people on their respective teams

[@Masterchief0521]

@@owenleal The show also goes out of its way to show truly good hearted heroes. Like the archer who helps Deep or the Blind Guy who does nothing wrong, or Stormfront who does nothing wrong

[@owenleal]

@@Masterchief0521 smh had us in the second half.

[@matman000000]

@@Masterchief0521 I did nazi that coming

[@geovannibotticella7822]

My brother loved the boys and was so into it that he immediately bought the comic. Next time I saw him I asked how he liked the comic He looked at me so sad and said “it ….it was awful”

[@Aisha_Luv]

Aww man... Ive heard good things about the watchman... Maybe ur brother should check that out?

[@number-qx1kw]

Wait fr ?

[@federicoanzola2785]

Tell him to read manga cause cómics are usually trash

[@thedoctor4327]

@Aisha_Luv! Watchmen is the superhero deconstruction story Ennis wishes his work was a tenth as good as. It has the same basic idea of showing how the real world would chew up and spit out costumed heroes but without showing them all as depraved monsters, rather they have more varied responses to the world’s realities and fall on a much greater spectrum of morality. It’s gritty and occasionally depraved/screwed up but not to excess and feels like it has real character arcs and messages to explore

[@the_representative]

@@federicoanzola2785 This better be bait, because manga has plenty of its own common problems. (Obviously not all though)

[@metadoe8168]

I'm convinced Garth Ennis would've actually become a supervillain if superheroes existed, just because he hates them so much.

[@HankJWimbleton-v1m]

He would definitely be the real-life counterpart of J. Jonah Jameson or Syndrome from The Incredibles if that's the case.

[@massgunner4152]

​@@HankJWimbleton-v1mworse, he would be that one My hero academia villain that kills heroes because he only likes all might.

[@vinayaksharma9270]

​@@massgunner4152well you are selling my guy stain short atleast he was able to acknowledge deku and some other heroes while this guy can't.

[@CollinMcLean]

@@massgunner4152 I actually made that exact comment about Stain! That he reads like the creation of a Japanese Garth Ennis and no that isn't a compliment...

[@copter2000]

He would probably be Reverse Flash.

[@Lord_Numpty]

One of my best friends said this a few weeks ago. "Man, the more I hear about Garth Ennis the more I think he's a twelve year old emo kid with stilts and a man suit"

[@nolaz010]

“It feels like a hit piece on people who don’t actually exist” I’ve never heard the boys comic described in a more perfect way Edit: thanks for the Reddit gold kind stranger 🤓

[@MatanVil]

This is just the genre on supes deconstruction in the nutshell, even Watchmen

[@Horatio787]

@@MatanVil I'd argue Watchmen is a dispassionate analysis of what socially accepted vigilantes and one guy with powers would be like in the real world, and every other deconstruction (other than The Boys show) has missed the fundamental point of super heroes. They're heroic people in abstract stories. They're John Henry, they're the myths of old west gunslingers, they're King Arthur. They are stories about exceptional people in crazy situations that are not meant to be taken 100% literal. Watchmen takes them 100% literal and thinks about it, every other deconstruction (other than The Boys show) ignores why the fuck people would even bother dressing up in themed Halloween costumes at all instead of just joining the military or police force.

[@shawklan27]

@@Horatio787 well said

[@daryno9048]

@@Horatio787 I think another point that Alan Moore was making was “what kind of person would be drawn to the life of a superhero too”. You have fascists like the comedian who use his Authority and abuse it, Rorschach who have a mentally disturbed man who have a black and white view of the world, you have narcissist like Adrian who believe it was up to him to decide the fate of the world, and the one character with actual super power was just detach from humanity and the world.

[@mr.goblin6039]

@@MatanVil Watchmen never feels like it’s made to mock or hate on superheroes like The Boys is. Moore had something to say with Watchmen. The Boys isn’t deconstructing anything; it’s just Garth Ennis wanking himself and the US military, saying superheroes are all lame and cringe.

[@Dyngblue]

Too many people think that just being cynical makes you smart. Asking the questions is the first step, trying to find a better way is the next one. Too many people stop at step one.

[@stanza77]

Facts!!!!

[@valhatan3907]

say it louder, mate. Say it louder.

[@suckballs6601]

whats the point of finding a better way when you'll never get to implement it

[@cr820]

Well put. Cynicism is the aborted first half of doing anything useful.

[@phabiorules]

I good qoute I once heard "alot of people make the mistake of confusing cynicism with wisdom. It isn't, it's just cynicism."

[@deathsstrokes]

The Boys comic is a prime example of why Garth Ennis writes best when he has someone higher up the chain in publishing to come back and say "dude, what the fuck?"

[@shawndashno6022]

Oversight is necessity.

[@Werewolf.with.Internet.Access]

“I just-“ “No. What. The fuck” “I just think it would be cool if-“ “Dude. No. Not only is it tasteless, it is cringe. Try again.” *Sad Greg noises* Edit: 420th like achieved. If you have it, you must smoke it. So says the internet werewolf.

[@CBRN-115]

​@@Werewolf.with.Internet.Access "revise this crap"

[@Cristopher.C]

crap.. crap.. megacrap..

[@MrSkerpentine]

*something something late Frank Miller here*

[@romxxii]

Its weird to me that Garth Ennis' revenge against four-color comic superheroes is basically the Nineties Action Hero, in the mid-2000s.

[@Awwscrewit]

The truly stupid thing about the Black Noir reveal is if you compare the silhouette to early issues there is a clear difference in shape. Ennis had no idea how to wrap up his murder fantasy so he just pulled that out of his ass.

[@chrisdaughen5257]

The whole reason Noir does it is stupid. Conditioning Noir to kill Homelander if he goes rogue makes sense, but to have it be his sole obsession ends up being counter productive. Noir does the thing he was to stop Homelander from doing.

[@Awwscrewit]

@@chrisdaughen5257 Keeping him around Homelander is also stupid. If he's your ace in the hole, why are you giving everyone a chance to see it? One errant explosion ripping the mask and the jig is up.

[@ginogatash4030]

Makes me wonder what the fuck the show is gonna do for the finale.

[@massgunner4152]

@@ginogatash4030 i predict that homelonder gets exposed for his crimes, the company goes under after the controversy and there is a super hero civil war while homelander goes insane.

[@caramel7149]

*The artist looks at your comment, cries, and writes a power fantasy about how he is so cool and nerds are so not cool. Learning nothing, absolutely nothing, as he nerds out.*

[@atonxment2868]

The Homelander in the show is a remarkable villain. He knows how to cover up, lie to public, fit into his daily hero role whilst fulfilling his sick desire. He might be a man-child but he’s still kind of smart. The comic version is just an idiotic maniac lol.

[@memesforbreakfast3447]

Homelander is just the average celebrity, just with superpowers

[@dik56]

He's not good at any of those things lmfao, hes constantly on the verge of being ruined. Homelander in the comics feels like a dark souls final boss

[@Lozak]

@@dik56 exactly my thoughts, reading some ot these replies really made me question if we were watching the same show at all

[@satanwithinternet2753]

@@Lozak really ? Cuz i remember some times where you see how good he is at lies like the plane crash scene where he manipulates people and makes it a fight against terrorism or during the capes for chridt thing or how he treats bryan or when he uses translucents death

[@danielhernandez2575]

@@dik56 Don't compare this shit comic to Dark Souls.

[@ikebirchum6591]

You know how kids in elementary school would always rewrite nursery rhymes to be about violently dismembering Barney or whatever? The Boys comic is like if someone never got over that hatred as they grew up, and then put a ton of effort into writing and conducting a full ensemble orchestra rendition of "I hate you, you hate me, let's get together and kill Barney." It's honestly more pathetic than anything else.

[@narusuke413]

Where I grew up, ppl used to say love instead of hate

[@Slick-Salamander]

Huh, it was always "we're a terrible family" where I came from, granted, the "Lets go kill Barney" does explain the next verse "With a bang, bang, bang, and Barneys on the floor. No more Purple Dinosaur"

[@Rorschach220]

Man that takes me back to 3rd grade when my friend and I would sometimes sing "Old McDonald got tourtured" for the hell of it

[@jasminelovespink]

So it's basically what happens when you let your hatred for a fictional character override common sense. Which is a bad idea in my opinion.

[@brandleythomas7551]

What kind of schools did yall go to?💀

[@Arm-Man45]

the satire may be on the nose but you'll be surprised how many people missed it until season 4

[@falconeshield]

They finally got it because Firecracker was a stand in for MTG

[@concept5631]

​@@falconeshield MTG?

[@irinore]

Magic the Gathering

[@SomersBugtopia]

...Who are you referring to? I haven't seen anyone missing the satire, more so that season 4 is poor satire.

[@frickroll]

@@SomersBugtopiano, it’s just annoying people on the internet repeating the opinions of the KZbinrs that get a lot of attention from stupid idiots that give off vibes of being in a hivemind or echo chamber. You’d know if you’ve known how these guys have operated for the past few years and inadvertently brought more attention to the things they wish to take down. It’s genuinely hilarious to watch every time.

[@RedtailArt]

The original The Boys comic is like the comic book equivalent of those old newgrounds flash games where the entire point was just "kill (random celebrity that the creator doesn't like)". I also think it's hilarious how overtly obvious it is that the writer didn't want to have to deal with writing the consequences of his character's actions, because he literally just kills off every character at the end for no reason

[@iantaakalla8180]

Meanwhile, The Boys the Netflix show is basically a thoughtful show written by a person who pines for the grittiest aesthetics of the 2000 animations but knows how it combines with a good story.

[@Mediados]

@@iantaakalla8180 And they add a good amount of humor in a fitting way, so that it lightens up a bit and you're not just watching a depression fest.

[@saragonzalez7839]

​@@iantaakalla8180 the boys isn't on Netflix

[@Skibidi_Fazbear]

The boys comic is the equivalent of those newgrounds games about school shootings basicaly

[@ilhambrewok7860]

@@Skibidi_Fazbear Pico's School?

[@Nunya_Bidness_53]

So Ennis mocks one-dimensional characters by creating one dimensional characters

[@TheRedMan77]

"You were the Chosen One! You were meant to _destroy_ the Sith, not join them!"

[@swampert564]

If anything, a lot of the time he is mocking multidimensional characters by creating one-dimensional versions of them. His satire for lack of a better word lacks teeth because he willfully ignores anything and everything that makes the character special just so that he can say "gotcha" to himself. It's especially odd to me since he likes Punisher so much (to his credit, he does write the character well usually) even though Punisher is at best just as likely and at worst far more easy to flatten into a one-dimensional character as any other super hero.

[@cornesalvo9366]

@@swampert564 Very good analogy.

[@Misora7303]

I would say that that could be a good satire if it weren't done so poorly, heroes can be one dimensional or tridimensional depending on who writes them so it would be could to have a mix of bot, like ok the show

[@TheLegendaryMemeKing]

Yes.

[@jacksonlarson6099]

I want a show or comic that take the Megamind approach. The superhero is genuinely a good person that just becomes tired of being a superhero and tries to escape that life to do normal fun stuff.

[@lucasbecker1982]

I recommend Megamind to u

[@AccurateThings]

Megamind 2

[@myleswelnetz6700]

And so does the villain.

[@danielcastillo591]

The fun thing about megamind is it does kind of the opposite of what these superhero subversions Most of the time people go "If anyone had undisputed control over a whole city, they'd go mad with power no matter how good they used to be", but megamind said "Nah, no matter how 'evil' they thought themselves to be, good will always rise up to oppression" Also it has a nice guy as a villain, that's a huge pro

[@RomanvonUngernSternbergnrmfvus]

I want a show based off of something that actually sticks to what it’s based off of, I don’t think asking for that is too much.

[@Manik034]

I watched S4 E6 right after this video and it seems like they’ve drifted back to the comics with “every superhero’s flaw is that they’re an insane sexual degenerate”

[@EdwardPhilips9700]

Not only the supes...look at Ashley and even to an extent...Frenchie..

[@HolyknightVader999]

They had to draw from the well of the source material since their only other thing is to bash conservatives.

[@TheRadioSquare]

@@HolyknightVader999 That wasn't from source material. Tek Knight is mostly a joke character in the comic. His tumor makes him want to shag every hole he sees, which eventually leads to him saving Earth when an asteroid with a hole of just the right size comes towards it.

[@collinm.4652]

I loved the show and I like season 4, but they did Hughie really dirty in that episode. I really hope season 5 eases up on the gas pedal a little bit because they have a really good thing going with this series.

[@Boredness90]

@@HolyknightVader999 you're a weirdo LMFAO

[@Cloperella]

The more i hear about the original comic, the more astounded i am that it was picked up by Amazon at all and not thrown out the window. Big props to them for saying "yeah it's pretty messy, but with the right people putting some elbow grease into it, we can turn it into something extraordinary"

[@UnicornStorm]

well, thanks to walking dead and game of thrones, overly gory tv shows became really popular, and Watchmen is a beloved deconstruction of superhero comics, so why not produce something that combines the two

[@J-manli]

Well, if Amazon tried to pursue more "family friendly" content, they would have to directly compete with Disney. So rather than compete with the biggest entertainment giant, Amazon did make a smart move in catering to an audience that Disney rarely touches.

[@nickrustyson8124]

@@J-manli And plus like everyone is saying, MCU Fatigue is a thing, so seeing a world were those Heros are the bad guys in a mostly serious way is also a reason why this show got so popular

[@markstewardson4006]

The Boys was always a good concept on paper. It's just Ennis could not help being Ennis whilst he wrote it. I agree big props to the people for taking the source material and making something this good with it

[@kielanwade5096]

@@J-manli This is facts. Prime Video feels like the edgy, NSFW cousin of Disney Plus and even most of the stuff on Netflix.

[@orangutan-halibut-walrus]

the comic wasn't kinda terrible. it was garbage. it had interesting ideas and utterly failed to execute on every level. the show is superior in every single way and i'm shocked and pleased. i don't think i've ever seen an adaptation surpass its source material so completely before.

[@amuroray9115]

I’m amazed someone at Amazon saw this edgy comic and barely thought “I can rewrite this to make it much better.” Kudos to them.

[@T--kq3pj]

Yeah to nad the show is woke shitfest

[@gaspachoo5046]

needs to happen more often, we tend to put original creators on an unrealistic pedestal. Alot of times people who come up with good ideas aren’t themselves best suited for fully utilizing said ideas. They just happened to think of it first.

[@CRT-5826]

American Psycho, the book versus the movie was the first example of this I think

[@WATCHERtheCHANNEL]

Starship Troopers? The movie was basically a parody of the book.

[@Trenzilla]

I always felt like in Garth Ennis attempt to make a more "mature adult" superhero comic series satirizing superheroes in The Boys, he made I think one of the most childish comic book series. A series that comes off like it was written by that "edgelord" classmate you went to middle school with. The concept of The Boys is great. I'm so happy the TV show changes so much from the comic to make it a well written series that satirizes superheroes and our current world's media climate rather than an overly disturbing series for the sake of being disturbing trying to satirize superheroes.

[@omegaprime9794]

I wouldn't even say it's a satire of superheros, it's more of a satire of celebrity culture thru the lens of superheroes

[@Trenzilla]

@@omegaprime9794 yea I agree. it's more a staire of celebrity culture that using superheroes. Focusing more on the heroes desire to stay relevant in the media. It definitely does that more. I will say, it does have those moments when they do satire the current superhero crazy in media with that whole parody of the snyder cut, but it definitely still using celebrity culture to satire it, which I love.

[@marcuschiong306]

Am I the only one who sees a slider attached to this comment

[@nutmatical1042]

@@Trenzilla there also more humanized instead of the chaotic evil despicable monsters

[@joshuakim5240]

Yeah, the comic has a very interesting premise that ends up just devolving into childish hate fantasies about the genre its satirizing despite the initial impression that it would be an interesting exploration of how the human condition would realistically interact with superpowers. The show however does fulfill this premise brilliantly as a much better step up from the comics.

[@epsilon6516]

I see that cheeky little edit in the thumbnail

[@horizonenjoy2323]

"Hilarious and original"

[@robertcortez4956]

I thought the thumbnail looked different.

[@flashgordon9308]

Garth seriously missed the mark in numerous ways, his whole attack on Captain America is how he’s a “disgrace to the actual vets who fought in the war” when the two men that created him Jack Kirby and Joe Simon were both former military personnel, and the comics were popular with actual soldiers in that time period. The X-Men parody is shallow as hell and doesn’t touch on how they were a metaphor for civil rights advocacy. Not to mention his whole “superheroes are useless” thing is pointless cuz he specifically created a world in The Boys where there would be no need for Superheroes. In the comics that Butcher makes fun of, it’s pretty obvious why the world needs someone like Superman, cuz the military themselves can’t take down villains like Doomsday. And also props to you for that shot at the end about Grant’s weird boner for the military industrial complex. Dude wrote a story about superheroes and what not being corrupt while also caping for law enforcement and the government like they haven’t been guilty of doing fucked up shit themselves. EDIT: Gotta love how some of the comics’ defenders arguments boil down to A) “No it was a satire” then failing to explain how it’s a good satire Or B) Weak ass insults Lmao proving my point

[@dragonstormx]

Ennis was actually trying to critique the military industrial complex with Vought being an arms manufacturer whose products are crap, while lionizing the people in the armed forced. The people in the armed forces who get their weapons thanks to arms manufacturers and are winning so easily because of all the flashy weapons built by the military industrial complex.

[@SOMEGUY7893]

@@dragonstormx Yeah it's one of those things that fails to make the point it's trying to because of that very dynamic. Like you can't show the military slaughtering a ton of extremely fucked up people who just overthrew government and think people's take-away is going to be "military industrial complex bad".

[@akulahirpada1993]

Yeah Prof X and Magneto was pretty much inspired by MLK and Malcolm X.

[@smugsnivy5036]

Yeah, this guy hates volunteer heroes who risk their lives to save people then supports the military that wages useless wars and commits war crimes against some third world country.

[@flashgordon9308]

@@SOMEGUY7893 exactly. Showing the military killing a bunch of rapists and shit contradicts that critique. And even then the comic still seems to dickride them and law enforcement so idk

[@levongevorgyan6789]

Making Homelander a legit good guy who tried to be a hero and stand above the others, only to be driven mad by falsified evidence that he's a monster, could have also been a neat way to recontextualize the character.

[@socialanxietydora4112]

That would be a twist, what he did to star made me not feel bad for him when they gaslighted him.

[@Sugargooss]

That would've been really cool to see in the show, just remove the rape of starlight and we good

[@levongevorgyan6789]

Yeah, definetly.@@Sugargooss

[@comebackguy8892]

​@@SugargoossUh, what? I've seen the entire show and have absolutely no idea of what you're talking about. I think you've accidentally mistaken a certain other site for Amazon...

[@AlanWakeEnjoyer]

@@comebackguy8892the first episode when the deep met starlight

[@princess7jasmine]

You should have mentioned Garth Ennis's obsession with using rape as a plot device for literally everyone.

[@brunoyudi9555]

@@djchodegasm7268 which doesn't say much tho

[@djchodegasm7268]

@@brunoyudi9555 wdym tho

[@Jalapos]

@@djchodegasm7268 idk tho

[@mkultra2456]

You gotta stop saying literally.

[@Jalapos]

@@mkultra2456 he said it once?

[@GambinoN64]

Am I the only one who got recommended this video because the thumbnail changed?

[@libertyprime3827]

Looking through the comics trying to find other people talking about it.

[@bigb0ss583]

What confuses me about the boys team in the comic is that the V serum that Billy and the rest of the boys take only amps their physical capabilities... yet this also already puts them ahead of 4/5s of all supes. Which means that there is basically no threat to them besides like... the 7, and some rare superheroes like stormfront. So there's no tension when they fight almost any supe, because we know they're gonna kick their ass probably.

[@Reel___]

Better show, The Boys or Invincible?

[@Zarathustr]

It’s one of the few contrivances

[@steelbear2063]

@@Reel___ The Boys for sure.

[@aregulargenericname8794]

@@Reel___ both are good,

[@windows10sovietedition86]

@@Reel___ haven't really watched any of them yet.

[@spaaaceman1939]

Billy in the comics is like a dollar store punisher. Call him the Chastiser

[@ThatsShowbizBabyy]

Underrated comment

[@thedeviantguy]

I think the most important thing about bad media is what it says about the person who made it and the people who like it. In the end it’s like the video said, he just wants to live our violent revenge fantasies against people who he doesn’t like. And wanted that so much that he spent a significant period of his life drawing it out for kicks. He really loves sexual assault, gay sex, and pedophilia, otherwise why would he dedicate so much time to painstakingly illustrating it? I mean, drawing it poorly, but drawing it nonetheless.

[@RICO30HD]

The Inconveniencer☠️

[@thischannelwasamistake9403]

The slap-on-the-wrister

[@mikaroni_and_cheez]

The "we need to talk"er

[@thewolf8660]

Let's be honest, this is an issue with superhero subversions in general; People who neither understand nor like the idea of people just wanting to do good decide to write "what would really happen if someone had super powers".

[@ihavenojawandimustscream4681]

I think the recent Batman movie is a far better superhero subversion than the Boys because of this;rather than saying that people will become crazy when they get superpowers the movie criticize the very concept of being a hero itself as nothing more than vigilante justice that can quickly get out of control

[@user-gm4kv2my4u]

@@ihavenojawandimustscream4681 thing is its not a criticism of heroes. It's a criticism of vigilantes. Batman becomes a hero in the end, realizing he can't just be a symbol of vengence but must be a symbol of hope if he wants to create the change he's striving for.

[@vaiyt]

People with superpowers who make the wrong choices are just supervillains. We already have those.

[@sensaiko]

But Ennis understand and likes superheroes, that's what you all are getting wrong.

[@VictorIV0310]

@@sensaiko He does make cool Superman stories tho.

[@vilegoblin]

I read the original run of "Crossed", and came to the conclusion Garth Ennis just has hatred in his body for everything.

[@TightSqueezie]

Crossed is Ennis at his worst. Good lord, what a miserable experience. It's a great concept for a story but the execution is so wretched, both in terms of its tone and its quality. It feels like the dude needs someone to be like "ok Garth, you can make things incredibly bleak, but at least TRY to make it nuanced/interesting/something other than Ultimate Middle School Wearing-A-Black-Trenchcoat Don't-Come-to-School-Tomorrow Edge." I think the best handlers of dark material-David Lynch, Lars von Trier, Cormac McCarthy or Chuck Palahniuk (to name a few from other media)-find a way to put a fresh spin on the misery to give it a unique quality. Ennis really struggles with that in my experience.

[@glxrybxy8484]

Crossed would've been good if it was written correctly because the concept ain't that bad

[@arkhamasylum8972]

One of the best things said in this video- "Too much hate towards something can make someone just as annoying and intolerable as the thing they're making fun of." This honestly applies to most people nowadays.

[@cappedminer369]

agreed

[@arnahunas4048]

For example, the Star Wars Sequel Trilogy. It’s not very good, but god the “DISNEY RUINED MY CHILDHOOD” videos are more grading.

[@craigthebrute8932]

Anti-furries, Anti-Bronies, Anti-Feminist, Anti-LGBT, Anti-Woke......pretty much being Anti something on the Internet means that your hole personality is base on just hate. Which is way more pathetic then the people who he is making fun of

[@loudgamerindonesia4485]

Yeap. Same like some video game companies whom...did that too...hmm i wonder who.

[@henrycavillsrealmustache3553]

Facts like the people that just completely hate on new MCU films, like yea they arent to the peak of what they were a few years ago, but thats because of their own expectations people put on them. But maybe me growing up and remembering Fantastic four 2, elektra, and all the other terrible comic/ game adaptations lmao. Like they arent even probably 7/10 most these new ones but they arent 2/10s like some of the early 2000s and 90s shit was 😂

[@arnahunas4048]

In defense of the ending, I actually really like the idea of Billy realizing that killing all the superheroes didn’t give him the sense of satisfaction he thought it would. Getting rid of them didn’t magically undo all the things he’d gone through. And that’s the case in real life more often than not. Coping with traumatic experiences isn’t nearly as simple checking things off a list. But him killing the rest of The Boys & planing to release a biological weapon that’ll kill everyone with Compound-V in their blood? That feels like Ennis threw something together at the last minute to tie up loose ends that didn’t exist.

[@actualturtle2421]

Well my view on revenge is kind of "It might not make me feel better but at least they'll be dead."

[@gabrielpasqualini8413]

@@actualturtle2421 Exactly,revenge isn't supposed to bring anyone back,it's about reckoning.

[@vincegalila7211]

@@actualturtle2421 I mean how much would you be willing to risk? Obviously you might come out the loser unsatisfied damaged or even dead, with those you involved willing or not possibly sharing your fate.

[@DoratTheKiller]

Becoming a supervillain to own the supes

[@robonator2945]

this is my major issue with people who complain about season 3's ending. The three complaints I've seen were power imbalances which, flat out wrong, if you pay attention all of them make enough sense to be justifiable. "why did they start fighting soldier boy" because he is nearly as bad as homelander (bad in different ways might be a better way of putting it) except he can literally desupe anybody at will, y'know, the only method for fighting a supe that exists, another supe? yeah he can say fuck that. And finally (the one you actually talk about here) one idiot on the subreddit was even complaining butcher "wouldn't have switched to fighting soldier boy if it wasn't Ryan who got hit, it was irrational"... mate, he literally bashed a mans head onto a bathroom sink for daring to talk to homelander when they blackmailed him into getting his arms broken, knowing full well he had a kid. The first fucking time him and hughie go undercover, he threatens the guard. This entire fucking crusade, happened because homelander killed* his wife. His entire character is about being a howitzer pointed at a goal, and doing anything to achieve it, whether that goal is reasonable or not. Ok, with that basic character understanding down, over the past 1-2 seasons we've seen both Butcher and Homelander switch from their original goals to caring more about Ryan, ergo, the Howitzer has been reaimed, from killing Homelander, to protecting Ryan. Let's not forget, the main reason Butcher wanted Homelander dead was because he thought Homelander killed Becca, and he didn't, and when she did actually die, her literal last wish was to protect Ryan. Why oh why would he EVER start fighting soldier boy instead of Homelander after Soldier Boy threatened to kill Ryan and Homelander went out of his way to try and protect him, god I just don't know, why EVER would he do such a thing.

[@bearandthebull2372]

One great thing about the show is that it doesn't turn every hero into this sociopathic monster that rapes and kills for fun.Each one is nuanced to a degree and quite a few have been shown to just wanna be left alone with their families and lives without interference,which makes butchers hatred of them less pragmatic than his comic counterpart. The comic version is just:How depraved can we make each supe that we create?

[@Lucy_Ferrr]

It’s almost like people have complex and layered motivations and values. Crazy thought, I know.

[@bearandthebull2372]

@Eduardo Perez The comic is essentially "how many times can i draw a psycho path in spandex get beat up by the not-punisher". There's a message sure,but your insane if you think it's portrayed in any logical way outside "heroes bad,corporations bad".

[@renard6012]

@Eduardo Perez There's nothing to "get." It's Garth Ennis ranting (again) about things he hates (superheroes, corporations, etc.) while being a tryhard. Nothing new at all. I'd rather read Punisher kills the Marvel universe again.

[@lars573]

@@renard6012 Why? It was terrible.

[@alessandrajackson3768]

That’s what I love. Also how the flushed out Vought to feel like a Disney or Amazon company. They all have motives and reasons why they do what they do, even Homelander.

[@andymejia7635]

Damn he changed the thumbnail

[@eeeeee-nk7ts]

What did it used to say? "The show IS better"?

[@ultimate.25]

​@@eeeeee-nk7ts yep, season 4 ruined it all

[@mateusgreenwood1096]

I find hilarious how Ennis hates fictional characters this much and is willing to portray them commiting atrocities but constantly jerks off the military every chance he gets in every comic he's writen.

[@ryanchase9332]

He's the comic book equal to Michael Bay.

[@drew3758]

A-10's are pretty cool.

[@error-try-again-later]

"it's okay when we do it"

[@cam4636]

Yeah, I liked how the problem with a few people having the power to do whatever they wanted and using it to do whatever they wanted is solved by...the military and some heavily armed trenchcoat dudes

[@Ragiroth]

He probably mains all the Special Forces characters in Mortal Kombat

[@BlazeMakesGames]

Wait a second. If you think about it, if the Boys are fully powered from the start, and all the superheroes are objectively evil cause they're pedophiles and shit. Then didn't he just completely recreate the thing that they were making fun of from the start? Like all he did was make a superhero team that goes around killing bad guys. Sure it's much more gory and edgy than a traditional superhero story but at the end of the day he literally just recreated the thing he supposedly hates so much. After all the core of all superhero stories is that the hero discovers and then has to take out the bad guy. It really does feel like this guy didn't even know what he actually hated. I guess the only thing he actually had a problem with was the idea of people wearing costumes. But this seems like a lot of effort to go through just to make that statement. And when you have a main character who's clearly designed to look cool by wearing a trenchcoat all the time, well sorry buddy but you just made a costume.

[@Horatio787]

Exactly. You could say a trench coat resembles a cape as well.

[@shawklan27]

The matrix taught us that trenchcoats are badass costumes so yeah you're right on that part

[@BostonMBrand]

Exactly. I mean Ennis really likes the Punisher (who for all intensive purposes is a superhero) and despite his more grounded design, the punisher still wears a costume. His logo is basically just the same as any other hero.

[@tjenadonn6158]

Garth strikes me as a scared, confused little man who has no idea what he hates but just knows that he hates it. One wonders if his family invites him home for Thanksgiving.

[@mr.goblin6039]

Yeah, but in Garth Ennis’ pov, they’re cool and not lame cause they’re all dressed like rejects from The Matrix instead of wearing spandex and colorful costumes. Garth has always had a weird hate boner for superheroes that aren’t Superman or The Punisher. He doesn’t care if it comes of as hypocritical. To him, the fact that his superpowered totally cool OCs don’t wear costumes is better cause he says so.

[@ovskii96]

It's so dumb how Ennis sees Captain America as an insult to veterans when the comics were written for soldiers during WWII. No veteran has this view of Cap.

[@ariloulei814]

Those things are unrelated. You can be disrespectful of people in a group you belong to and maybe not even be aware of it. A tanget but Saving Private Ryan was made to honor veterans but it inspired a bunch of movies that are cashing in on WWII Power Fantasies rather than trying to treat the war with the importance it deserves. I look at Call of Duty these days and feel nothing but disgust as it's very disrespectful and that was based Medal of Honor series which was based on WWII movies like SPR. MoH tried to be tactful but AAA video games aren't a good place for that when they need to be so fun they sell like hotcakes. Again going back to SPR I'm not even sure it fulfilled it's goal of being a respectful depiction of the war. I remember my Stepdad getting hyped up like he was watching football... is that how we honor the sacrifice all those soldiers made. War should be treated as a tragedy cause that is what it is.

[@blackAngelProductions]

I don't even like Captain America but even I would say he is a good example of what veterans look like as well as being a good example of American ideals and individualism

[@ghostophelia2245]

I think hating captain America is just a man baby crying tantrum. Literally the least problematic and represents positive attributes of masculinity and ideals Americans at least say they try to uphold. He hates him because he could never be him because his ideals are writing gory, r@pey comics

[@TheLivingThanos]

I am not sure the current Government in America is even capable of respecting Veterans

[@Aaron-un4jo]

Don’t forget made by veterans from ww2

[@Donerci_Pikacu_Usta]

Did you change the thumbnail from the show is better to the show was better? Respect.

[@4thofEleven]

What I find really pathetic about Ennis's hate of superheroes is that it's purely aesthetic. As you said, the Boys are basically just superheroes themselves - but they wear trenchcoats instead of costumes, so he likes them. Stick Homelander in an army uniform, and Ennis would probably see him as a hero. It feels like his entire objection boils down to him just saying "Bright colors are stupid! They must be perverts!"

[@pedrovallefin8406]

It seems like too much of a simplification to say it's purely aesthetic. Sure, it's mainly aesthetic, Ennis view of most heroes is certainly shallow as hell. But not so shallow that the Boys could ever be considered superheroes. They cant really be called heroes, but they're undoubtly anti-heroes. The key difference is that they're all killers. Over half of the team are bunch of muderous psycos. Huggie and MM are arguably good people, at least they have some sort of morality, but even they have their hands filled with blood. The others are a trío of bloodthirsty nutjobs, but they arent degenerates, that's what separates them from the supers. The line between anti-hero and villain. That's what trully makes a superhero, not the powers but the moral highground. Batman doesn't have any powers but one of his definitive characteristics is that he doesnt kill. That's why he's a superhero. A killer that does good is an anti-hero, like Deadpool and the Punisher. The Boys are a group of punishers. So aparently Ennis's problem with superheroes isnt just the bright colors and tight costumes. It boils down to an extreme cynism on his part, he seemingly cant believe in heroic people that maintain their morals in the face of monsters. His "heroes" cant fight villains without coming down to their level, cause that's "realistic". And i find that less pathetic and more just sad.

[@smirky101]

Even further to your point, the character of butcher is so similar to homelander he's even drawn the same way. Both butcher and homelander are anti social to the point of being sociopaths, violent bullies and degenerates, but ennis wants you to idolize butcher, near the end (spoiler) the story seems to give him a heel turn but then gives him a hero's death, which is confusing. Butcher has all the characteristics of the people he hates, right up to the superpowered entitlement, maybe that's a commentary, but if it is, the comic doesn't want you to see it, butcher is just supposed to be the cool author avatar.

[@matthewwasson2906]

@@pedrovallefin8406 I guess I kind of get Garth Ennis's point of view. The idea of a superhero that can joke, play around, and act like stopping criminals is fun and enjoyable for them (think Green Lantern, Flash, or even Spiderman) is a COMPLETE JOKE. These heroes can be so casual and careless with their powers and they let it all go to their heads. Garth's love of Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman makes sense in this regard, because each of them takes a much more serious approach to fighting dangerous criminals. They understand what's at stake, and what could happen if they falter for even a minute, and don't hesitate to do what needs to be done. And none of them let the praise go to their heads.

[@felixflitou]

What I find pathetic is people hating on Ennis for disrespecting superheroes. Y'all think he hates them, but he just finds them ridiculous, like God or other sanctified figures, he likes to laugh at them in a blasphemous way and it works: superheroes 'fans' make videos with comments full of hate on a guy that doesn't care, just like religious people hated on him. The supes in the boys are a purely superficial point, they're not the heart of the story at all.

[@eden4279]

@@felixflitou I think you ignore the fact most of these people criticise him not because of the fact that he disrespects superheroes, but criticise the way he does it. There is no valuable commentary, no deconstruction of any tropes. It's just a guy writing page after page that only ammounts to "SUPERHEROES ARE DUMB AND I DON'T LIKE THEM VERY MUCH!" At least when you do that with religion, you can try to say you're doing it for the sake of being controversial. Nobody's gonna think you're controversial for just hating on superheroes, because that's just an opinion (and not even one that's very uncommon these days.) Meanwhile with religion, you spark much more of an outrage, an example being Trey Parker and Matt Stone wanting to show a depiction of Muhammad in South Park but having to back down and censor it.

[@synthkilla9927]

Haven’t finished the comic series. But from what I read, it was definitely a hard read. It had it’s moments. But it was a bit too edgy for the sake of being edgy.

[@DetectiveLance]

It was Garth Ennis' just "old man screaming at a cloud" the series.

[@MisterUnknown707]

@peter Go to hell.

[@Nostripe361]

Well it was written by the guy who had the punisher kill every superhero

[@jack-exzolt9858]

@peter Fuck off with tha Air Fryer

[@shawklan27]

@@Nostripe361 makes sense

[@Goldenleyend]

"he accidentally killed a guy but its ok because he had a rat up his ass the whole time" 😂

[@TheRedMan77]

That made me genuinely just stop for a second and go: "Wait. The _FUCK_ did he just say?"

[@alejandrootero8894]

ah... wait a second.....

[@CollinMcLean]

@@TheRedMan77 "It's the X-Men. But Professor X actually diddles kids." and that long pause afterwards...

[@TheRedMan77]

@@CollinMcLean Fucken killed me XD.

[@probablyjinxed]

close enough, welcome back lemmiwinks ❤

[@CharizardMaster69]

fun fact: The only set of superheroes who aren’t complete assholes are Super Duper, a group of developmentally challenged teenagers who only take care of low level danger, Ie: Cats stuck in trees. It’s also heavily implied it’s because of their mental handicaps that they aren’t scumbags. Also they are the only superhero team left at the end making them the defacto strongest group of superheroes.

[@TrueUnderDawgGaming]

The only change I find very strange is Homelander's obsession with tiddy-milk. That was SO strange that I thought (for sure) it was from the comics...but nope

[@kingmob2716]

It might be a reference to comic's Mother's Milk, who is kept alive by drinking his mutated mother's breast milk. Since MM is far more dignified in the show they gave the trait to Homelander as a fetish.

[@TheNeutralZone]

I think it makes sense in the way that Homelander is desperate for love and affection, something he never got as a child due to him coming from a test tube. It just shows how fucked up he is from growing up in Vought’s environment.

[@LucyWest370]

@@TheNeutralZone I can get him acting like a literal child but like… why this specific way?

[@devinbirse6431]

@@LucyWest370 probz cause it’s also just unsettling to look at, like in away different to a lot of the other freaky stuff in the show so it also kind of helps homelanders oddness stand out.

[@somethingfunny2199]

Look man if MM wasn’t going to do it someone had to

[@ivantumanov1015]

"he's superman, but he, uh, eats babies" "like it's written by an edgy teen" yep, that's Garth Ennis the writer.

[@ratatouilledrinksclorax9897]

Other than his run on Hellblazer....hes....yeah , a 14 this is deep

[@crimsonmask3819]

Nah, that's Alan Moore. Ennis was just playing one-up.

[@genericonion6255]

He actually did a pretty great run for the punisher

[@Runningitthroughyou]

No he went to a Christian convention lifted contest winners into the sky and dropped them. Y’all should really read the book y’all gotta take this yt’ers dick out y’all mouths he wont notice you

[@himurabattousai8408]

I'm convinced he wrote The Boys at least half for kicks. He does love his edge but he's also a competent writer when he tries. And he can also make his edge emotionally effective instead of gore/sex for shock value when he tries, but he wasn't going for that so much here. I was a bit surprised when I heard so many people calling it bad because "edge doesn't make it deep" when I think that wasn't the point at all; he was clearly laughing his head off as he wrote about hamsters in people's buttholes. I mean you kinda need a sick sense of humour to appreciate it so definitely not for a mainstream audience but... It wasn't a case of him trying to make a super serious story in the first place.

[@Hijinx1997]

I read the entire series and I felt personally attacked the whole time.

[@JIMT412]

I felt like the writer was treating me like an idiot for liking super heroes. Well I believe his even more idiot for doing this comics.

[@bryanmanuel4945]

@@JIMT412 Think the writer pretty much hates all heroes well except Superman. I wonder why he writes about them but oh well

[@NerdXZ-pn4nt]

good

[@Horatio787]

@@JIMT412 The stupidest part is that in the comic the boys ARE super powered and take the law into their own hands. Literally the only difference is that they're not wearing costumes.

[@CT9wasmyhandle]

aww you poor snowflake....

[@efb4051]

The title change lmao, honestly with season 4, the show is going towards a formula like in the comics rather than trying to build an actual story

[@horizonenjoy2323]

nope the show wrote so much stuff better this season than season 2 i dont have time to write those but i can say the show isnt complete disaster , and the reason its getting hate sheep minded npcs who are like blocks in domino game are hating it

[@Abolas452]

Bro really wrote a “then everyone dies” ending 😂😂😂

[@punchdreadnought8101]

and its refreshing to see that The Boys amazon series does not follow the plot of comic version. Gives me hope that a better ending for Butcher and The Boys shall occur. Queen Maeve has a perfect ending already, unless Homelander goes crazy and murders her in ss4 (spoiler alert) she does not have powers to fight back anymore.

[@yesnomaybeso8633]

"The end! 😃" "That didn't help at all!"

[@Tkk861]

low iq

[@widjayagohpeircess5777]

only good 'everyone dies' ending is probably Rogue One

[@Tkk861]

@@widjayagohpeircess5777 nah

[@mandownunder5211]

WATCHMEN is a good comparison. Alan Moore doesn’t *hate* superheroes, at least not like Garth Ennis does - he pities them. The superheroes in WATCHMEN are complex, even characters like Rorschach and the Comedian have layers. The problem with superheroes that WATCHMEN dissects isn’t that they’re awful people, necessarily, just that they’re, at best, completely ineffectual at solving people’s actual problems and at worst agents of a fascist state

[@rawalshadab3812]

Alan Moore clearly has love for the genre since he also wrote Top 10 and Tom Strong, both of which are genuine loveletters to the genre.

[@user-so8fx3yp4s]

​​@@rawalshadab3812except Top Ten has pedo murderous versions of the JLA

[@zaragozrex]

Exactly. Moore understands that superheroes are inherently fantastical concepts and once you start applying "realistic" ideas to them, they fall apart bit by bit. Moore knows the ideals superheroes usually inspire can be a very slippery slope if not careful. The disillusionment of Americans in a post-Vietnam/Watergate era and the height of both Reaganism and the Cold War probably played some role in how we examine our heroes, even in fiction.

[@grey8478]

​@@zaragozrexyou think rorschach and the comedian aren't terrible people? lol

[@TheFLAMEXD]

They're not agents of fascist state, though. Alan Moore was wrong on that front.

[@thebigwagyu]

In Garth Ennis’ world, literally everyone is an evil depraved monster. That old lady walking down the street? She has a sex dungeon filled with dead bodies. It’s so one dimensional, and the comic was the reason why I put off watching the show for so long.

[@BobExcalibur]

No that's wrong and stupid. Most average people are decent in Ennis's work, just indifferent and easily manipulated.

[@thedukeofchutney468]

@@BobExcalibur Indifference to evil is still evil. Garth Ennis is less concerned with making interesting characters, but rather just complaining about the superhero genre.

[@BobExcalibur]

No, the comic is also a deconstruction of the kinds of characters and stories Ennis likes to write. Butcher is the ultimate antagonist.

[@陳潔明-w6y]

@@BobExcalibur 1. Tech-Knight... Somehow the most ridiculous sexual deviant possible that had infatuation with his young sidekicks... 2. John Godolkin... Somehow a sex offender to his young sidekicks/apprentices... 3. Oh-Father... Somehow a sex offender to his also young sidekicks/apprentices... 4. Homelander... Also a repeated and *public* sex offender for no reason... 5. A-Train... Also a sex offender... 6. Deep... Tried to be a sex offender... The characterization behind the comics were the wackiest I've ever seen... Like Ennis wasn't even trying to write compelling villains but just shove in the laziest trope possible... "Just hate these guys... What are their arcs??? I didn't think about it..." Somehow, Marvel and DC comics were more mature by comparison... Thank god the show exists...

[@piperian3962]

If a character is merely indifferent in Ennis’s work it’s because they’re not developed. When he fleshes out a character, that’s when it turns out they have children buried in their basement.

[@sixshoteagle7670]

Who was here before "was" was "is"

[@nullptr2124]

Me fr

[@YEOsCanal]

me

[@forresthenry9535]

From what I can gather, Garth Ennis’s philosophy is: “How dare people be inspired by ideas of selflessness and honor! Because EVERYONE is an asshole, like me!”

[@sgdrdfshf3017]

So u never read the comic then???

[@Shiirow]

'There are no heroes, just assholes and even bigger assholes."

[@gamergames334]

@@sgdrdfshf3017 Bro the comic is straigth trash. I read it and its horrible. Its really just an edgy shitshow with no real depth.

[@KrodaStagg]

@@gamergames334 It's like that meme of the guy saying "I hate thing" then an angel descends down from the havens to deliver a piece of paper that simply says..."ok"

[@bovineavenger734]

@@gamergames334 You need some degree of maturity to read past the edge and get to the actual story, the edginess is there to scare away overly sensitive numales. It's still crass af though I'll grant you that, I mean, Love Sausage....

[@miguelantonioreinacardona7109]

You know the show can be different but I’m glad that it’s, let’s be honest Garth Ennis didn’t care to tell a story he just wanted to show his Mary Sue character Butcher kill superheroes . Starlight wasn’t even a character Garth just wanted to write her to be a punching bag of the seven . Seriously preacher was subtle compared to the boys.

[@mariano98ify]

When it is a male, they ate called: Gary Stu.

[@tjenadonn6158]

@@mariano98ify I've also seen Marty Stu.

[@dipstick7489]

This is so disgustingly not true

[@themarinefan]

@@dipstick7489 you don't know Garth Enis then. Or read the comic. She was only there to be sexually assualted and then sidelinded most of the comic.

[@Nightman221k]

The part in the comics where Hughie called Annie a wh0re for the whole incident instantly made me give up on liking any of the protagonists in the story. I read the rest to get it over with but even his "redemption" rubbed me the wrong way cause Annie had to follow him to explain herself and beg him to understand her POV. It'd be one thing if he sought her out to say he was wrong it's so bizarre that a rap3 victim would seek out a guy who'd be so horrible to her.

[@LoganWH8]

It never felt like anything the boys did really mattered. Like, for one, they were already stronger than everyone but Homelander, so they were never really in danger, and then, when the Supes finally attempted their big coup d’etat, their army was immediately wiped out by the regular US army. Like, if the boys had done nothing, the story ends the same way, Homelander leads the corrupt heroes on their coup, Homelander and Black Noir kill each other, the army wipes out the supes, the end. Like, at most, maybe A Train survives along with the Deep.

[@puppieslovies]

That's the problem with committing to ending a story. If you never planned for that ending to happen then you need to bend over backward to fill plot holes and it's never satisfying

[@plagueofjoe]

It's worse than that. They had plot armor to make Batman at his most prep-god jealous. The over the top nonsensical reasons Garth came up with to have Homelander *not* just kill Butcher rendered the character harmless and every power the heroes displayed was essentially a joke. In one fight with a superhero team their powers amounted to using flight to fly poorly and crash, using energy projection to shoot at a dog and miss, and using mind reading to scare themselves and be taunted. Might as well have just had the Boys kicking puppies for as impotent as all the heroes, especially Homelander were. All the power in the world doesn't matter if you bend over backwards refusing to use it.

[@milea-carmaciumihai4288]

The supes were wiped out thanks to the tech provided by Butcher. DU ammo would have worked against some supes but they had nothing for fliers. Plus, the boys were strong but not necessarily top. It took all of them and Vas to manage to hurt Stormfront. If they ever went against the seven they only had chances against Jack, Starlight and A-train.

[@VictorIV0310]

Nah, only Starlight and the Deep survive. A-Train gets his head kicked off by Hughie when he found out what he did to Starlight/Annie.

[@28br]

@@plagueofjoe you understand the concept of a ceasefire right

[@chirone00]

He's not ready for season 4

[@QuentinofVirginia]

People compare The Boys to Watchman and I think that is a massive insult to Alan Moore. Alan Moore didn't set up to write insipid garbage about "superhero bad", he sat down and thought about what each of the DC characters would be like if they existed which lead to an insight on what it's like to be a god through Dr Manhattan and what a vigilante would be like if they existed through Roscharch. Meanwhile Garth Ennis just writes "super hero bad" and that's his entire comic.

[@FireFoxGaming_]

Yeah fair enough!

[@dustinakadustin]

I'd love to see Alan Moore write Watchmen but with the DC characters he initially wanted to use.

[@trchbrr]

@@dustinakadustin Grant Morrison wrote an issue as a sort of "answer" to Watchmen using the original Charlton characters called "Pax Americana", and it's one of my fav single issues ever

[@Treblaine]

Or as Garth Ennis has it "super hero gaaaaaaay (which is bad, lol)"

[@deriznohappehquite]

Watchmen is basically what the Justice League would be like without the moral gravity of Superman.

[@cdv3401]

Garth Ennis tried so hard to make fun of the cringe that he just became it.

[@trollerpilotxiv3079]

"I used the cringe to destroy the cringe"

[@JIMT412]

@@trollerpilotxiv3079 "You didn't destroyed anything, you just became even cringer"

[@amirgarcia547]

So you either die based, or live long enough to see yourself become cringe.

[@123rockfan]

The tv show became it as well. The cartoon shit with Black Noir is the dumbest thing I’ve seen in a show in a long time

[@rognogog5092]

@@123rockfan that was supposed to portray BNs mental state

[@DonniedrakoE]

The best difference between the show and comic I think is just humanization. Having the boys be powerless from the start and having most of the seven be celebrities controlled by an uncaring company makes the show feel still satirical but very much grounded.

[@FireFoxGaming_]

Yeah no kidding! I actually made a original character for the boys (yes Ik shush) and he’s supposed to be a character that makes fun of teenage super hero tropes and basically the challenges of them in real life. In fact, this is a genuine hero. Of course his identity was found by his family a week later. His origin is that he was one of the victims on the plane crash, but in this case this is more of a “what if the plane survived” scenario in a sense. how he got his powers I’m still figuring out but he does get get Compound V (lol no duh) but still making fun of the idea of teenage super hero’s. While I’m still writing this out and still writing my version and story the show is more of my inspiration then the comic.

[@danolantern6030]

@@FireFoxGaming_ That’s interesting! How’s it going now?

[@FireFoxGaming_]

@@danolantern6030 it’s going great! His name is Lycan, heavily inspired by spider-man, as he saved everyone from the plane crash and has been helping people since the plane crash, he was once a huge fan of Homelander but absolutely despises him now. Eventually they get found out and lycan the new hero was being thanked, surprisingly no one knew besides his parents (not 100% sure though) and seeing a genuine super here is something I wanted to do because while the show is full of fake hero’s (besides starlight but she isn’t necessarily a super hero anymore) he is out there day in and day out helping this city for real while vought struggles to find out his true identity since no one has ever seen him. Again still working on him and It’s been a year already when i talked about him? Wow!

[@whirligig_saw]

holy hell the change in the thumbnail after 2 years is diabolical

[@fireemblemaddict128]

I feel the same about the comic Old Man Logan, and the movie Logan. Old Man Logan was alright, had some interesting parts, and the art was pretty good. It was ok. The movie Logan was a gripping final send off for Hugh Jackman and Patrick Stewart, and an amazing movie in its own merit. It left much of the theater crying. One of the 3 movies to make me cry in my 3 decades alive. Better than any other X-men movie by a 200% margin. I even think it's just the best comic film.

[@adamunown]

My thoughts exactly. Except to me it's not just the best comic book film, but also my favourite film of all time.

[@malif1279]

It's not just the best comic book film It's one of the best films of all time Such a masterpiece loved every minute of it

[@LateNightTableCo]

Soon as I heard about the Noir (black and white) version of the movie, I promised myself I would only watch it in that format the first time I watched it. And boy, was that a good move. I don’t think I want to see that movie in color because the Noir version hit so much harder for whatever reason

[@benc77]

I loved the comic, I know him killing hulks is stupid among a load of other things but the mysterio part was fucked up as hell and I loved it

[@hyperion3145]

@@benc77 There are a lot of cool ideas but it doesn't take them far enough. I personally wasn't fond of Red Skull being the big bad again, I like what they did with Mysterio but that's pretty much the only thing he does and it sucks. Mysterio probably will never be that dope again.

[@SurrogateActivities]

So it's basically "if I had superpowers, I would wear a cool trenchcoat(not a friggin nerdy tight costume!) and kill nerds(that are evil so its justified)"

[@HankJWimbleton-v1m]

So you really want to be The Punisher, huh?

[@ALotOfCancer]

Garth Ennis is an incel confirmed

[@BigWheel.]

I guess in a way isn't that much like a superhero though? "if I had superpowers I would wear a costume and beat up thugs (they're evil so it's justified)" Like, superheros In themselves are also power fantasies. The difference is their aggression is aimed at people we ALL would find undesirable, like criminals and terrorists. Literally speaking here superheros are people who are basically the most powerful beings in existence who take the law in their own hands and impose their morality in their world. I understand that in the comics they're usually doing something undeniably good, but then they lack the depth that moral flaws bring, not everyone is perfect and maybe comics have handled that moral grey area a superhero might possess but I haven't personally seen too many examples, but I'm no expert on the subject either so maybe I'm just out of the loop.

[@skycastrum5803]

Not really. Butcher's hatred is is a key part of the story and isn't viewed favorably.

[@AL-lh2ht]

You can tell in one here actually read the story. It’s impossible to read it and believe butcher, literally named butcher, is a “good guy”.

[@themarinefan]

I once heard someone say in video "the boys is superheroes for people who think". When in reality, the boys is superheroes for edgy cynical people who think they are more clever than they really are. Don't even get me started on Garth Enis. He wrote punisher stories and thinks he is some kind of authority on war stories. He is a massive hypocrite. He says that writing superheroes in war stories is disrespectful yet draws and writes punisher comics set in veitnam and afganistan. He hates the superhero genre but is not above making money off of something he hates. He calls fans of it stupid, and has stated he has no respect for "heroworshippers". The guy is obsessed with war for whatever reason too, and even more so with military men winning. Like you can show him a superbeing in a show overpowering soldiers and destroying tanks and he'll say "this is unrealistic, the soldiers should have won this."

[@RiskOfRayne]

I would say that the Show definitely falls into "Superheroes for people who think" even if it is edgy and cynical at times. You cannot convince me otherwise that Besos wouldn't have a fucking Besos Brigade of suped up human beings to make him tons of money while also being able to defend him and push his physical and monetary power to new heights if he could.

[@trollerpilotxiv3079]

I wonder if something happened to him when he was younger that shaped his views on these things. Maybe a hero of his did something that traumatized him and made him disillusioned with the idea of heroes.

[@slightlyistorical1776]

Maybe he thinks that those who honorably serve are the real heroes(?) I can’t find anything online that says he ever served in the armed forces, so I wonder if probably this love for military supes stemmed from a civilian standpoint

[@themarinefan]

@@slightlyistorical1776 it does. He never served but last i checked he had family who served. Sure non-powered soldiers who fight for their nation are heroes, but is it unrealistic that they are defeated by a bullet proof man with the strenght to shatter mountains? That's the point im getting across.

[@themarinefan]

@@trollerpilotxiv3079 no, he never liked the superhero genre. He always said superheroes ruined comics as a medium. He wrote primarily war stories in europe and came to america and wrote multiple punisher comics. He is a pretentious writer, is what happened to him.

[@Blacknight8850]

The thing that makes the comic not work for me is that you're not meaningfully criticizing superheroes when the superheroes in your comics are doing terrible things that _you_ wrote them to do? Like it doesn't prove that Superman sucks because you wrote a character who's _like_ Superman but also a racist?

[@dukeofnoobs4177]

You get it!! This is what I hate in a LOOOOT of fiction tbh, I don't yearn for morally grey characters buy anu means, but so frequently will a writer just fail to write a bad person so they'll jus throw in something ridiculously evil to show "its your fault if you ever liked this guy" (and I'm speaking about shit with no foreshadowing whatsoever) It's a problem you get in political fiction A LOT. Very often authors won't bother creatively critiquing one party or their values, but instead will just write them as doing bad evil shit for its own sake. Like yes, people can be bad and evil, but if you can't write how they're noncompelling or wrongfully-minded without just resorting to have them kicking puppies, then you can't really prpve your point or even stand your ground, you're just playing with action figures at that point.

[@Overlordough1201]

The Boys comic is like, the perfect medium for power fantasy fanfiction. Everyone is so goddamn awful that even a normal dude just naturally becomes a Gary Stu because he's actually competent and logical

[@Mediados]

The heroes are actually written in a way that makes sense for normal people. Most superheroes also have outstanding traits like selflessness and bravery, but The Boys shows what would happen if you gave an average person superpowers. They would absolutely get a god-complex.

[@Mike-zb1cg]

​@@Mediados average misanthrope take

[@Mediados]

@@Mike-zb1cg Why? It's just the truth that the average citizen is selfish

[@HankJWimbleton-v1m]

@@Mediados There are actually supes that legitimately want to help other people (Starlight, Kimiko, and Maeve for example, which goes to demonstrate that having superpowers on its own doesn't inherently make you a bad person, it's just that everyone else also sucks that people so most would end up being exactly like those people. Most people wouldn't know what to do with it, many would become hedonistic sellouts who abuse their powers, and the number of truly altruistic heroes who actually know what they're doing would be countable on the one hand. In other words, it's not Compound V that's the problem, it's all the negative aspects of human desires it brings to the surface by ramping up their inner nature.

[@Mediados]

@@HankJWimbleton-v1m Of course, I didn't meant that there are no good supes, it's just that most people would not be good people if they got their superpowers. Just imagine how much easier crime would become. If you can turn invisible, what stops you from robbing a bank? It is only human to look out for yourself first, but still.

[@Judgement_Kazzy]

I think the best summary of how needlessly mean-spirited the comics get, is when some business man literally fucking airdrops a shipping container full of orphans into the ocean.

[@ceoofracism4869]

What the fuck based

[@DoctorNemmo]

They had it coming

[@somethingclever4297]

There is no way that happened. You're telling me he didn't eat and/or "touch" the orphans.

[@Judgement_Kazzy]

@@somethingclever4297 Not these ones, anyway

[@nicknamed1267]

@@somethingclever4297sadly no, the orphans were still touched of course (classic Garth Ennis) but it was by the professor X knock off, not the business man.

[@Killzoneguy117]

The Boys is basically Watchman at home. Watchman provided an excellent deconstruction of superheroes because the characters made sense. Each character had their own personality flaws. And ultimately, only the Comedian was really a monster. Rorschach was brutal and severe but only against criminals, and Ozymandias, while a mass murderer, had an admittedly noble end that the book left it up to you to determine if it justified the means. The one character with Godlike power wasn't a sociopath, rather he became detached from his humanity. The heroes had believable flaws and the book didn't try to jam some shallow edgy message down your throat.

[@dc7981]

There are tons of failed watchmen clones too its pathetic

[@Killzoneguy117]

@@dc7981 It amazes me how many comic writers try to make these bizarre edgelord Watchmen clones without understanding what Watchmen was. The whole point of Watchmen was not to tear down superheroes, it was meant to explore the theme of humanity. Humanity when married with ultimate power. It explores humanity at its best and at its worst. The Comedian is the perfect example of this. Most of what we see is the Comedian as a sociopathic, homicidal rapist who clearly enjoys inflicting suffering. And he knows what he is, accepts it, but in the end, gives his life to try and stop Ozymandias and his monstrous plan. Every one of the Watchmen has their own exploration of what it means to be human The Watchmen is trying to tell a story that is more than just its edgy setpieces. The violence, sex and gore exists to illustrate a point, an exploration of the human condition. It doesn't just exist as Alan Moore's power fantasy.

[@jeremycards]

Well, Watchmen was pretty much the best superhero comic book ever made and it completely revolutionized the genre, bringing it into this discussion is a bit overkill, lol. But yeah its pretty much all you said. I haven't read The Boys comic, but for all i read about it it seems just that, very superficial hate on the genre instead on smart comentary like in the show.

[@sattire7694]

No

[@nuclear4569]

Everything's true except for saying that Rorschach was only brutal towards criminals because in the first couple pages he broke a random guys arm in a bar just cuz he teased him a little bit, + although not entirely innocent Rorschach with the oil is unjust (imo)

[@AhiruSaikou]

Came here to say WAS better but the thumbnail beat me to it.

[@DarkKnight86_]

I finished rereading the comic a few days ago after my first time a few years ago. I haven’t seen your thoughts on it yet, but I think my issue with the comic is that it’s too “mean,” for lack of a better term. It’s overly forcing its point about superheroes. Like why the hell is there a moment where Butcher considers murdering special needs kids, or why does it constantly make things sexually perverted? I just feel that Ennis forced his thoughts too much and muddled the idea by trying to make it happen. He’s doing whatever he can to attack the concepts of superhero media. I’m curious what you’ll think.

[@judyhopps9380]

Ennis and Millar have this tendency to go "f**k c**n n*****r d**k" and be spiteful without nuance. They crap over a genre that frankly they owe their livelihoods to. Be it the family in the car dropped from the sky, the sexually abused x-men kids pushed out the back of the plane, 9/11, Herogasm, or Millar's Wanted, Nemesis, or Kick Ass, there's too much spiteful garbage in there. "What if superheroes were real?" We like them because they're not. It's escapism.

[@miguelantonioreinacardona7109]

In my opinion the series was better at handling this themes , Garth didn’t want to show this he just wants to show how awesome butcher is , but because he is so psychotic the only way the author handles this is by making a bunch of strawman to show he is better

[@trollerpilotxiv3079]

@@miguelantonioreinacardona7109 My thoughts exactly. There's no heroes, antiheroes or villains in the comic, only straw men.

[@zumabbar]

@@trollerpilotxiv3079 i feel like the problem is more of that there's no enough good heroes showing up in the comics to balance the fcked up supes, that made the comics' characters felt too mean in a forced way.

[@zumabbar]

Butcher hated all Supes, that's why he was considering it. Kids or not, you got Comp. V in your vein, you're a target for him. It reinforces his motivation in the comics.

[@helix4048]

This entire comic can be summed up in one sentence: “Yep, I have dark humor: 'racism'”

[@valhatan3907]

😂

[@LightRoomRJU]

"Yep, I do dark humor: rape"

[@steelbear2063]

@@LightRoomRJU I mean yeah, that's still humor, but extremely dark. It's just that the topic is kinda taboo, but it's not so different from laughing at murder. Like we do with horror movies. In Jason X for example a guy gets thrown onto a giant drill, and his comrade says "he's screwed". Funny, right? I also "like" how James from Kill Count is all like "hell yeah, carve out the eyeball and eat it, awesome!", but when if there's even a possibility of rape in the movie, he's like "too far, there's no reason to include this, sick bastards" - yeah buddy, okay. Basically it's one of those cases where you don't laugh at the joke, the joke laughs at you.

[@s.g.7572]

@@steelbear2063 It's because there's a reasonably high likelihood that someone watching a film has experienced sexual assault, but it's slightly less likely that they've been murdered.

[@-8h-]

It doesn't sound any different from the show when you say it like that.

[@jorgesaxon3781]

3:12 When I saw the show I agreed that the satire was ridiculously on the nose but then I found out there where people online who actually saw the show and actually thought "Homelander is a the good and cool guy" and idolizesed him and I started understanding why my english teacher desperately wanted to critically analyze media

[@jimmylee9120]

I think he's cool/ great charchter. I've literally never seen anyone say he's a good person tho....

[@Fushishou]

I've seen it :/

[@devofficialchannel]

They're also the same people who cheered any time Patrick Bateman from American Psycho kills someone.

[@bazookasniper5167]

Just making sure youre not talking about this but everyone in vought's youtube channel's comment section is just playing along and joking. The joke does spread outside of the channel sometimes though

[@SidneySaturday]

@@bazookasniper5167 nah man, Homelander is up there with Tyler Durden and Patrick Bateman. Guys see him as an Alpha Male type and think his bravado and hyper-aggression is actually something to work towards. Instead of, yknow, the satire Homelander and the others are meant to be. The problem with good satire is some people will see it as a good thing

[@commando6683]

Wdym “was” better? Did they fuck up the finale? Did they fail to stick the landing? What the hell happened?