The Problem with Sorcerers in D&D

[@pointyhatstudios]

We did it! We did a video on ALL THE DND CLASSES! Core classes that is. Artificer and Bloodhunter are not SRD so I can't make subclasses for them! ... ... ... Or can I?

[@CreepersPlayGames]

if u do ill give u a kiss on the cheek i promise

[@f3rnglow]

Do it!

[@eee6047]

I would kill for an arty video

[@readyeddy1631]

PLEASE 🙏

[@Dndining]

Bro if you made an artificer subclass then that would be crazy

[@ARC--5973]

While i can understand the complaints about Sorcerers, I believe that one of their biggest untapped potentials for roleplaying is directly tied to the source of their powers. Sorcerers are the only class who didn't choose to become their respective class. Wizards had to study, Paladins had to swear their oath, Warlocks had to make a deal, etc etc. This gives the option to explore how your character feels about their powers. Perhaps they hate them, and wish that had never manifested, or maybe it inflates their ego and sense of importance.

[@jerfuhrer2581]

The super arrogant water elemental sorcerer always talking down to the sorcerer because he can make water spouts without having to study for them. And has always been a sort of big fish in a small pond because, as kids, he was the ONE with inborn powers. So he's used those little tricks he's learned and his charisma to get his way. But he's never learned how to do BIG things with his magic. Whenever he used to, it big time backfires. But...nobody else needs to know that.

[@Merilirem]

Exactly. People don't get that Sorcerers possess their own powers. Its not external study or some demon or god giving them a spark of something magical. Its their very being that grants them this power. They can hate it sure but they can also feel like gods because lesser mortals will never understand the true nature of magic the way a sorcerer does.

[@decibels552]

My last character was a warlock sorcerer who was exposed to a eldritch being when they were a baby and had no choice but to bear the powers. The powers slowly attempting to corrupt them over time. Pretty fun, the campaign ended prematurely though so I hope to bring them back one day. roleplaying them understanding why they have magic seems so fun.

[@nyanbrox5418]

That's me! I played a draconic sorcerer once who had dragon claws which he hated about himself, since he felt he could never gently hold the hand of a lover, and his claws kept growing back to tear through his gloves Anyone can have things about them that they hate, but a sorcerer just is that way, they don't have the ability to change... they just have a long path towards self acceptance or a life of self denial

[@samfish2550]

I agree so much with this. It's awesome to have both full backstory flexibility and the potential to be in conflict with your powers, plus the way it lets you mesh the mechanics of multi classing into your character. My bucket list multi class that I've been struggling to make work is a wild magic sorcerer who took to studying as a wizard to better understand and manipulate their magic.

[@ThePareidolian]

I’ve literally never considered the idea that sorcerous origins lend toward the chosen one narrative. Their central tension is more about “what do you do when you receive power you didn’t earn” and “what is your relationship to your unearned power?”

[@pippastrelle]

How to make a sorcerer's magic their fault: archeologist sorcerer trying to find as many cursed artifacts to trigger different types of magic

[@199rikki]

Could also be the very real thing people in real life do all the time: Going out into the world to find/do dumb shit they see in media to gain "superpowers" like spiderman got bitten by a radioactive spider, now he does stuff, could be the same for some sorcerers... though i have a feeling those people will most likely end up as wild magic sorcerers and blow themselves up

[@SilentSooYun]

My archeologist character gained Draconic powers because of a Saw-like trap in a lost tomb protecting (you guessed it) an ancient (dead) dragon pharaoh. The trap wasn't lethal, but the sacrifice was she ended up with a dragon's arm in addition to being gifted the spells necessary to escape the trap. Now every time she uses those particular spells, she loses a bit more humanity... but they're really useful spells! She also gained a voice in her head that tempts her with power, but is also extremely knowledgeable about History and Arcana, her two greatest passions (This is all flavour, of course. As a Human, she started with the Magic Initiate Feat, and an early dip into Rogue gave her Expertise, which she spent on History and Arcana)

[@Deltabolster]

I got an archeologist sorcerer he was born with his powers though. Storm sorcerer to be exact

[@skepticaltoaster9175]

This is what happened to my character! He became an aberrant mind sorcerer after taking a cursed amulet from a tomb to an elder god. He eventually made a deal with another god to remove the eldritch curse, becoming a warlock in the process

[@fredmonroe6042]

My idea was a member of a magically gifted family had no talent. He went on a quest for power, turned down a Warlock type contract. Blundered into something (doesn’t remember what) and is currently a wild Sorcerer.😇

[@rthanejehxbejws]

I think your characterisation of them as “magic nepo Baby” clouds your judgement of Sorcerer characters. They might have been born with powers like, but they still have a reason for choosing to adventure; it should always be more nuanced then that.

[@warmachine5835]

I agree. The choice to adventure is the interesting part of a D&D game, not necessarily the origin of the character unless that origin is what leads them to adventure. One of the things playing Fate games taught me is that relationships to the other characters are also important. And my personal experience tells me that I can twist a class description any way I'd like to justify a theme so long as my table agrees--and twisting the aesthetic of a class is a much easier sell than twisting the mechanics of a class.

[@M0nsterm0uth]

pointy hat is a little bit allergic to nuanced views on classes, I watch all his class videos and 9/10 times they boil down to boiling down a whole class around 1 single idea, saying that 1 idea is bad, and then proposing a second idea

[@davidlewis5312]

@@M0nsterm0uth and in the case of Sorcerer he came up with something actually actively worse

[@ExileTwilight]

@@davidlewis5312 Pretty much. I love the idea (and have made similar archetypes in other games, except no one person being the curser) but after complaining about how most sorcerers naturally fall into the chosen one or main character role, he makes a sorcerer that requires the story to focus around them xD

[@rosebelmahjoubi1932]

your first mistake was aknowledging nuance on the internet

[@deanospimoniful]

Pointy Hat: "Am I out of touch? No, it's the children who are wrong."

[@x-treme4661]

This should be top comment

[@Megapixel8063]

I love playing sorcerers! The two I’ve made are less “magical nepo baby chosen one” and more “There is something very wrong with that person. Are they ok?” Like their mortal bodies weren’t really supposed to have this much magic in them

[@Megapixel8063]

Also I always pick my sorcerer spells around a theme. One of my characters was psychic/telekinetic, and all of her spells either influenced people’s minds or moves the physical environment around. Not a single spell she cast created a visual effect

[@douglasmckenna5575]

​@Megapixel8063 my sorcerer is pyromaniacal disaster child, that's only behaves well when working as a guild artisan.... would totally curse his wares if I could

[@lucasms23]

Funny, my sorcerer is the exact opposite. He is THE nepobaby. Not only he is a sorcerer, but he is actually a noble. More than that, he was a playboy, a spoiled brat. The point is, he has all this power but since he done nothing to have all of it, he has to prove to everybody and to himself that he's worthy of it, and that he is worthy of praise not because was lucky, but because he did something important. In the end, he was a kid in search for validation

[@NoahOMorainRush]

​@@Megapixel8063 One of my friends once came up with the idea of an Aberrant Mind Sorcerer played as a deranged crackhead, and I'm still sad I never got to see the idea fleshed out. Like fully wigged out, doesn't sleep, everyone around her thinks she's hallucinating (which she may or may not be), and so on. I'm considering stealing the idea some time since we don't play together anymore haha

[@Megapixel8063]

I do have a habit of not really giving my sorcerers much story after how they got their powers, which I should tbh. This video made me realize that. At least they have a reason to adventure! A sort of great power comes great responsibility situation lol

[@EPadraigM]

I never liked the idea that sorcerers are exclusively seen as nepobabies. there are SO many other options i always saw them more like superheroes! while you can get your magic from a bloodline, you could just as easily get it through encountering a dangerous spirit, or being exposed to the raw weave, or even falling from a catwalk into a giant vat of a strangely colored mysterious liquid!

[@Deadpool-ri3rq]

That’s exactly how I view them!

[@Finalplayer14]

Absolutely this! I find Sorcerery is at its strongest when you have them have conflict within their sorcery origin- who's to say that your Sorcerer didn't have to sacrifice something or perform some task to get their powers? Maybe for your PC to become a Dragon Sorcerer they had to sacrifice someone important to them to a Dragon and as payment, the Dragon bestowed draconian power to them. Or maybe to become a Divine Soul they had to travel through some old dusty tomb and avoid a series of traps and puzzles to find at the end a potion that once drunk gave them celestial powers related to the tomb's deity. In both cases, you've got a character who's got powers and possibly even enemies or allies to work with. The Dragon Sorcerer may want to kill the dragon who may have manipulated them or forced them into that sacrifice or may now be working for the Dragon as an underling. For the Divine Soul, they could have rivals/enemies who are hunting them now because they got the power of the tomb first, or maybe since you've unlocked these powers there's a small subset of people who may worship or regale you as some savior or reincarnation of their divine champion. Interest abound!

[@hulmhochberg8129]

Honestly the start of bg3 lends itself perfectly for a random peasant to awaken as an abberant mind sorcerer.

[@deanospimoniful]

They are more of an analog to the mutants of Marvel comics. They were born with weird powers because...?

[@AlRoderick]

The Order of the Stick did an entire bit about sorcerers as effectively the X-Men.

[@Alexmd9x]

Did not expect a draco malfoy edit to open the video but here we are

[@somewhereelse1235]

It goes unreasonably hard

[@Tootiefrootietortalini2001]

What song is that? It’s so good!

[@afenvec]

@@Tootiefrootietortalini2001Farben

[@falconmann]

Anyone got a link to the edit? It's super cool

[@cyberninjazero5659]

Well done, Slytherin... HOWEVER

[@johnbrewington2539]

I’m a game where several classes directly talk to god, another class directly knows an eldritch abomination, another makes magical music with no reason why they are more magical than any other musician, it never occurred to me that a sorcerer would be seen as the main protagonist.

[@chillax319]

I agree. It's the bard class that never made any sense to me.

[@thedungeon1578]

Exactly. Every class has something like this. If anything, Sorcerers are a lot more interesting to me than wizards who just studied a lot. I'm currently playing one who is trying to trace her family's lineage to find out where her magic comes from. The magic is as much a curse as a blessing, because she's Aberrant Mind and hears whispers from the far realm.

[@christianevald]

THIS! Sorcerers gets bashed for having unearned powers, when clerics literally only have to ask mommy/daddy in the sky for theirs.

[@johnbrewington2539]

@@christianevald Clerics and Paladins can be worse, they can just have a really strong conviction and BAM superpowers. It’s really rare to hear of a cleric that goes the personal convictions route ever losing their powers, and a character that is that self assured is going to be a leader. It’s like John Brown or Hernan Cortez with DnD powers- from their view nothing else matters

[@Kronosfobi]

@@christianevald Worse, Clerics and Paladins doesnt actually *need* a god to be actively giving them powers. The mere thought of *a* god is enough. If they have sufficent faith, they can essentially create their own powers. So some lunatic with an unhealthy obsession with cheese can gain powers if he believes said cheese to be a god strong enough.

[@khodexus4963]

I can honestly say that in over thirty years playing D&D, I have never once had the Sorcerer is the Protagonist thing come up. It never even occurred to me or one of my players...

[@helline9]

I've played D&D since the 80s as well and to me it happens ALL THE TIME but not because of their bloodlines but because of their 'double D' charisma. While potentially any charisma based character can dominate a campaign & hold it hostage the other charisma classes have more restrictions, so its only really the Sorcerer that can carte blanche be 'the main character' at anytime ruining other peoples fun.

[@khodexus4963]

@@helline9 Closest I got to this was when I played a Sorcerer/Favored Soul/Mystic Theurge who brought his faith in the goddess of magic to a foreign land and essentially started a new congregation there. But none of that was planned, it just sort of came about, and in future campaigns that church featured prominently as a constant reminder of that original character's deeds. Also, this was well before the whole Sorcerer bloodlines thing really existed, and my character was an elf who got transformed into a half dragon by Bahamut. So a draconic sorcerer before it was officially a sub-class.

[@LetMeGetAUhhh]

he wants everyone to be mediocre and have a cringy netflix anime arc before they are allowed to be interesting

[@davidjennings2179]

​@@helline9 If dominating social situations is your problem, surely eloquence bards are more likely to cause issue than sorcerers?

[@Ershiin]

@@helline9 More restrictions? You know about the Bard, right? The class that anything you can do, they can do better? The class that has reason to literally refer to themselves as "the main character" due to their background in storytelling? The class that is all about performative acts that absolutely steal the show, such as but not limited to: Viciously Mocking the enemy with clever quips, coming in clutch by distracting the enemy at a vital moment with their Cutting Words, being a font of Inspiration to everyone they meet. Hell, as the jokes go, the Bard IS the grandma who "did the cool thing" that resulted in a Sorcerer grandkid.

[@i.j.dragonfly3123]

The idea of innate magic being a curse rather than an ancestral blessing is basically what the Oracle in Pathfinder 2e is! And yes, they're super fun

[@Merilirem]

They are the premier chosen one class though which makes this funny to Pathfinder players.

[@bbodyboi]

PF2e>DnD

[@CalmBlue]

They sound fun, but Pf2e forums are constantly complaining about having to be in a party with one.

[@slothfulquagsire199]

Warhammer 40K Psykers are the same way.

[@thegloriousryan8981]

so long as you don't look at some of the remastered ones

[@elliombes8875]

Pointy Hat: "I'm tired of the DnD community making seducer bard jokes" Also Hat: makes like 16 same jokes in one video

[@keenirr5332]

making a point by highlighting just how easy the joke can appear

[@High-LordHarza]

Yeah that bothered me. "Dumb jokes, insert laugh track" *Makes the same joke five seconds later*

[@nekiguess8304]

The one about wild magic being a fetish thing was kinda annoying.

[@High-LordHarza]

@@nekiguess8304 Yeah that too. It's all random magical effects from pop culture. The shrinking and increasing in size are straight from Wonderland for instance. Hell, Pointyhat even pointed one out in the potted plant one.

[@Black_golem]

Sorcerers are not contextually the main characters, I mean there’s literally a class that’s chosen by God. 😂

[@jamesn3122]

The Divine Soul Sorcerer?

[@darkarchonisme]

@@jamesn3122 is used to be it's own class, not just a sorceror subclass option, favored soul. in 3rd and pathfinder

[@Gaschdisturbed]

@@jamesn3122 I get the joke, but clerics literally have a feature that is "ask god to solve your problem pls".

[@jamesn3122]

@@Gaschdisturbed you aren't generally "chosen" by a deity as a cleric. You are more like, dedicated to their service and advancing their goals, and they lend their power through you, but only to further their goals, not because they "chose" you.

[@Gaschdisturbed]

@@jamesn3122 They chose you to further their goals instead of another chum of the street, didn't they? Like there's many believers, priests and even clerics of that deity, but you're the one in the Hero party saving the world.

[@UndeadMozelle]

Honestly I feel like this is only an issue if you treat a character's class *as* their backstory. If anything, a character's power being innate frees their backstory from the class, allowing your backstory to be basically anything because you dont really have to justify how they developed their skills. Like, yeah, a rogue can be a thief who struggled to survive on the mean streets, but they can also be a swashbuckling local hero, or a social-climbing noble assassinating their way to the top. A sorcerer can be any of those in a way that also accounts for their innate abilities - a wild magic sorcerer living on the streets because an ill-timed surge made them a fugitive, a dashing storm sorcerer using their flashy powers to impress the commoners, a draconic sorcerer using their powers to assassinate their way up the social ladder because they believe its their due. If the most interesting thing about a sorcerer's backstory is their subclass you haven't actually written a backstory. Basically if you're writing chosen one backstories for your sorcerer it's a skill issue, not a problem with the class.

[@caiusdrakegaming8087]

I think Pointy Hat does it that way because... backstories can be anything so it'd make it a little bit impossible for him to make these kinds of videos if he had to take into account the millions of possible origins for a sorc character to have. It's easier to actually go with the class being the generalized average of a character. And when it think of it in that way, yeah it would naturally lead to the 'holier-than-thou' kind of personality you'd expect from dick players that would play a sorc like that. At the end of the day, he's got to do it this way because he knows he can't make these D&D with a Twist videos if he has to always remember that any class can be interesting and fun on its own if the backstory is creative enough. This generalized opinion he uses is the only way he can realistically do the twists.

[@spiritvdc5109]

I feel like Elsa from Frozen is an example of how to make a Sorcerer character interesting by proxy of being in an environment that doesn't welcome or celebrate the powers they have, so despite having this random ability that's awesome, it can like a curse even without having any practical downsides just through societal pressure alone, and turns their character arc into one of figuring out how to exist in this form with a trait they didn't ask for - something rather relatable to the crowd of outcast nerds who tend to play TTRPGs in the first place lol

[@gobbyguardian9495]

I always saw the fact that the sorcerer's source of power being out of their control to be fascinating. Imagine a wizard and a sorcerer having a dispute, the wizard claiming the sorcerer has it easy because of their inate magic. But the sorcerer argues the opposite. The wizard was able to slowly build themselves up to where they are now, while the sorcerer got all the power the wizard has now almost immediately. How were they supposed to control all of that? Also, I love this curse idea, definitely using it for a future character!

[@furaoalbino9303]

I have a control freak wild magic PC, its really fun to play

[@Монс-й1ь]

To be fair, i would be mad too Mf is born with arcane powers and zero work for it, and even complaining that he/she can't control it from the start

[@hyzmarie]

Ahhhh… did they break several bones in the meantime?

[@maphestispain203]

Never seen sorcerers as "main characters" as much as they are just anomalies. They can be that but I also love the idea of them just being the comedic side character that ignores physics with 0 explination.

[@zetta-slow-gobbo]

"What do you mean precise calculations? I just did it. Man, must suck to spend decades learning all that. It's just second nature....yes those sheep were meant to appear there too."

[@Ershiin]

I like the idea of playing a wild magic sorcerer as basically a wizard school dropout. They have all the talent to become one of the greatest wizards of all time, but they kind of just half-ass everything in life. The lack of a spellbook is simple due to them never having bothered to write down any spells, instead they've just sort of memorized their favourite ones and the metamagic/wildmagic is just the result of them trying to improvise their way through spellcasting. The sorcerer doesn't "learn" polymorph. They just show up one morning, all excited like. "Guys! Guys! Remember that time I accidentally turned Mordred into a newt!? I've finally figured out how I did it! Now I can actually target it at whomever I want! ... Most of the time, anyway."

[@tiph3802]

​@@Ershiinamazing

[@althelor]

​@@Ershiin that honestly is a really interesting twist to sorcerers. Especially if they have always been a bad student in that kind of "gifted prodigy who never paid attention in school but taught themselves how to build a computer in their garage and almost burnt the house down multiple times in the process" kind of way.

[@jonathanmathai9269]

14:23, Arcane Soul? I thought it was Clockwork soul? Am I going to be banned for mentioning this? Is that the bit?

[@roninanwar]

I think it is clockwork soul.

[@KaiserDragoon77]

I’m guessing his human familiar messed with the script 🤷‍♂️

[@jas0616]

Caught that too; I suppose it's possible it's a translation thing? OF course, a mistake is certainly possible too.

[@oliverwolfe8225]

I was just about to ask about that too! Flavor-wise, it sounds like he's talking about Clockwork Soul?

[@jas0616]

@@oliverwolfe8225 he did change over to clockwork later in the video.

[@awsomeness]

I’ve always found that warlock players in my games are the biggest “main character” offenders, not sorcerers. They have the issue of the patron being an active force in their life that can show up and make demands or nudge the story at any time, while what makes sorcerers special is usually ancestors that are long dead and don’t effect the story at all.

[@tiph3802]

I played a cleric with a warlock player who had mcs. Any time the warlock threw a fit, her patron was there. My cleric is in a spiritual crisis and hikes to the nearest temple begging for guidance? Crickets. The sorcerer in that game definitely got mc privileges too but not for being a sorcerer, just DM favoritism.

[@PandaKnight-FightingDwagon]

On the one hand, fair. On the other hand... *looks at Critical Role* two campaigns with a Warlock without issue, 3rd campaign has a Sorcerer and the entire narrative is centered on their Sorcerous Origin

[@gryffehondor4236]

... And now that you said that, I'm imagining the 2000 years old gold dragon who fucked your great-great-great-[...]grandparent landing in your village one day going "according to this one contact from 800 years ago your ancestor took you have to grant me my request go do this adventure".

[@balderharbo1666]

Did you just forget how much of a role fjords leviathan patron played?

[@Terestrasz]

Oh, I agree. From my experience? The three classes that attract the "main Characters" are Warlocks, PAladins, and Clerics. With Blood Hunters, Rogues, and Bards being the second. The Sorcerers from my experience are the ones who the Paladins, Warlocks, and Clerics shove out of the spotlight once they get any kind of character focus.

[@zyre212]

Sorcerers are a prime opportunity for narratives of self discovery and finding one's place in the world! Power doesn't exist in a vacuum, it always influences something, and a sorcerer is never free of their power! The fact that a sorcerer doesn't have agency in becoming a sorcerer means they are perfect for narratives about regaining agency in their lives!! This is the core theme of a sorcerer I am playing right now, slowly finding out that she was more or less "designed" to be the way she is and treated like a tool in the greater plan of other people, and rejecting the destiny others made for her to create her own path to freedom.

[@andrlop6772]

Wild magic sorcerer is one of the most flavourful subclasses in the game imo. The fantasy of "I'm powerful but I can't control my powers" can be fulfilled in a brilliant way with it, and create some really dramatic moments, especially if the character sees it kind of like a curse, they never chose this. I've personally never felt it was a "jokey" class.

[@giraffesareburning]

I think it's because some of the wild magic surge table options are so goofy - but I agree.

[@samaradragonhart5719]

I think it can be played either way, which is why I love it!

[@felipeveloso1578]

Dimension20's Unsleeping City is actually a good example of both ends of the Wild Magic spectrum. Because Pete's backstory and wild magic surges are very dark, but at the same time, he is played by Ally Beardsley

[@spuriusbrocoli4701]

My personal fave use of a Wild Magic sorceror is my own pc who was abandoned by his birth family & raised by a wizard who worships entropy & chaos. He felt v much like a wizard bc of his knowledge & connections to academia, but he was a willing instrument of the chaotic forces that fueled his subclass.

[@Lemonpeppergoblin]

@andrlop6772 I do really like the overall flavour for Wild Magic. I think for many players, myself included, is that it feels too reliant on rng and feels like throwing a wrench in the work. You dont really have much control with the class but the gambling dice rolling can be appealing to some players. Although some players may be hesitant playing a ticking bomb wondering if the wild magic is going to negatively affect combat. If the DM and the group are cool with it then fine. Wild magic to me feels more of a one-shot type character where there isn't a lot of stakes and people are down for the tomfoolery.

[@nojusticenetwork9309]

I like the subclass idea but if your issue with the Sorcerer is that they did not actively earn/seek their power or have a clear narrative hook to become an adventurer, then I'm not exactly sure this subclass solves that problem. At least, not entirely. The subclass still has something happen to the PC for them to gain magic, not be an active participant, they're still just randomly given magical powers but now the player potentially has unwanted baggage of having to deal with the curse. The general "problem" presented in this video I feel is a fairly easy one to solve. I can't personally speak to the main character syndrome but because I've never personally encountered it with sorcerers. Most players I've seen straight up don't care to explain HOW they got magic, they just do and their motivations have little to do with their class. But if you want players to have cool stories about how they got their magic, have them seek it out. One could have heard tales that drinking the blood of a dragon would grant great power and after acquiring said blood, boom! Draconic bloodline sorcerer. A scholar studying the Far Realms or who was abducted by mind flayers aka BG3 now is an Aberrant Mind sorc. In any case, fun video and I did enjoy the perspective given.

[@Merilirem]

He made Harry potter.

[@appleseed8282]

Truly, the real problem with sorcerers is that they cast spells. Ya gonna look me in the eyes, say your some innate magic man, a true manipulator of the arcane forces; and yet all you can do is riff off someone else's thesis? Ged'outa here🌬

[@baguettegott3409]

I have a player in my game who is now part of four games in total and plays a sorcerer in all of them (this is not counting several previous campaigns where he was also always sorcerer). Over the summer we did a One Shot on the side and he tried a different class for a change... and you would not believe how many times he said "Well if I was a sorcerer right now I would just do xzy... I miss being a sorcerer". Never tried it myself, but yeah, sounds like the gameplay is pretty amazing.

[@icetide9411]

Sometimes you just have a class that you love so much that when you play something else you think "OH I CAN- Oh wait I'm a support character now nvm." Sorcerer is definitely the easiest to have that happen because of how unique its style is.

[@DallasBrownridge]

Thats like how I feel when i play anything other than Wizard

[@Leoluvesadmira]

I usually play a fighter or a paladin. My friends got to play a wizard, and his tagline was i wish i had a big hammer

[@NoahOMorainRush]

This is a me problem, but people who refuse to dabble in more than ONE class irk me 😂 I want to try everything! I want every character to be entirely different and unique from one another!

[@DallasBrownridge]

@@NoahOMorainRush i multiclass like a mofo 🤣

[@slurpingmario8006]

I honestly disagree hard on the narrative complaints ngl, like I feel like every class (besides fighter) is inherently weird enough to keep up as for why they’re a protagonist

[@Ershiin]

I would argue that the lack of quirky weirdness is exactly what makes the Fighter (and Rogue tbh) the best class to represent a protagonist.

[@slurpingmario8006]

@@Ershiin you kinda spittin

[@maybeyourbaby6486]

As someone who already loves Sorcerers the way they are, I recognize that I am not the target audience for this video, so believe me when I say that the following passage is written with kindness and respect, BUT... ...I honestly think the whole "nepo baby sorcerer" is the same meme level as, like, the horny bard or the sugar baby warlock 😅It's funny and all, but really not something I think anyone should take seriously when creating a sorcerer character. First off, I'd just like to put it out there that I think the best source of inspiration for sorcerer characters is something like The X-Men - The Sorcerer is basically a fantasy version of the Mutants, with supernatural powers that they all learn to control and choose how to feel about in their own special ways. I'm really not an MCU person but I feel like the X-Men franchise has lots of great inspiration for compelling and nuanced characters. One take on the Sorcerer I really like is as an artist - you might associate that with Bards on the flavor level or Wizards because they have to study magic to learn it, but when you think about it, everyone on the planet has the physical ability to pick up a pen and use it to apply ink to a sheet of paper. Obviously there's lots of theory to learn, but all of that is in the service of refining your inherent abilities to navigate the medium, and you didn't work for those - what you work for is precision and habit and application of them. Anyone can draw, paint, sculpt, etc - but you still need to practice and refine your skill to actually be an artist. I think the curse angle is really great, but it's also something that I don't think is entirely absent from the current Sorcerer - In my view, when making a Sorcerer, you should already be thinking about how they got their powers, and how they actually feel about them. Like, maybe your Shadow sorcerer was normal until they got mortally wounded in battle, presumed dead, and left in a ditch - and although a keen-eyed Cleric managed to heal them just before their soul left their body, the brief time they spent without a heartbeat has left them with one foot in the grave, not quite alive but also not quite dead. While they fall into the zone of "character arc determined by events outside their control", there's still lots of unresolved hooks in them - are they horrified by the constant feeling of Death breathing down their neck, or are they exhilerated by their newfound powers? Their motivation might just be to be the cool chosen one here to save the world - but it might also be to find a way to complete the healing and become fully alive again, which would give them back their enjoyment of life but also make them lose their powers. (Think Curse of the Black Pearl) Or maybe, it's a Final Destination type deal, where they know they cheated death, and now they're doing everything in their power to prevent it from catching up to them? OR, it's a The Crow type situation, where they've been given a chance to make things right, at which point they'd be able to fully move on from life. I honestly kinda wish Chaos Sorcerers had more elements of calculated gambles and risk/reward (have you played Dicey Dungeons, by the way? I feel like it would be right up your alley lol), but I think they have lots of potential flavor-wise in this aspect - you're not just a Chosen One, you're just some person stuck with incredible power that you are unable to control or use safely. Embracing it is fun but on the other hand, are you sure you REALLY want that? Maybe they're on a quest to find some kind of artifact that would let them fully control their powers so they don't turn any more loved ones into houseplants or whatever, but maybe they're also just plainly trying to get rid of their powers entirely? Which kind of brings me into another aspect that I think has some great potential - opposite to the Chosen One archetype, the Sorcerer can also just be, like, some dude? I know a lot of people really like the Fighter because they like the concept of just a regular little guy with a big sword surrounded by a bunch of crazy magical divine magical superpeople, but the sorcerer can also be just some random peasant farmer who found a fallen star out in their turnip field and now has weird powers they don't understand. They're not a beloved musician, they're not a chosen servant of a powerful god, they're not a holy crusader sworn to justice, they're not some criminal mastermind, etc etc - just some guy who didn't even learn how to read until adulthood because they were too busy helping out at the family farm, who can now suddenly shoot light beams out of their hands and is getting dragged into a bunch of political conspiracies and world-ending threats that they never cared about unless it affected their next harvest. You might think a Wizard who went to trans-inclusive Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry is more interesting, but there's also something to be said for a PoV character who knows as little as the player about the inner machinations and advanced magic system and centuries of lore in that homebrew world the DM spent half a year theorycrafting for. I also really hope the Dragon flavoring of the Draconic subclass isn't scaring you off? 😅 I always saw that as, like, the way to do basically any theme connected to any of the base elements in any way? Maybe you want to play a Sorcerer based on, idk, The Joker from Batman (1989), who fell into a vat of acid and now looks like a total weirdo who goes around electrocuting and poisoning and melting and charming people - I really don't think there's any reason that WOULDN'T work as an Acid Draconic Sorcerer. (Except maybe the wings, but who even gets to 14th level in a campaign? :P) I really liked hearing your thoughts, and I love the new subclass!!

[@maybeyourbaby6486]

(disclaimer: nepo baby characters can still be really dope too. Azula and Zuko, hello??)

[@GrayHarrison834]

My guy wrote an essay

[@maybeyourbaby6486]

@@GrayHarrison834 sir this is D&D

[@dodobarthel2249]

Honestly I think pointy is slightly exaggerating the "problems" of the class for entertainment...

[@Ubernaught012]

I've never even thought to make the sorcerer the protagonist of the main story. Everyone has their own sorta side stuff, that they are the protag of. And that doesn't really change with Sorcerer.

[@icefang111]

Real iceberg of discourse floating by vibes on this one, truly a problem I have never encountered. I think cause I and people I play with just don't think of sorcerers that way? The questions of how you got your spark in and of itself we play around with a lot, but the character questions sorcerer sparks has always been more "and how did the world respond to that power? how did you? how did that shape you?". It has very Tiefling energy in how quickly you can go woobie with that idea if you wanted, with built in strong and custom aesthetics! And of course the nepo baby vibes if you'd like, but you could also have your character put themselves in that position in the first place and sought out the conditions to get a spark (intentionally sneaking into the nuclear reactor as it were). But even in its classic form, all rights to not liking happenstance, but tbh showing the spider-man spider bite is like... the key for why that flavor is so appealing. It's not the bite itself that's important, it's the character response to it. What do you do when you simply come into power? Unplanned for and unearned? How does the world respond to that change and your choices relating to it? Are you received like Susan Storm or Ben Grimm? In response to worlds thoughts do you become Magneto? Charles? Cyclops? Rogue? Storm? Though I can see how MCS could set in for some people, it doesn't really feel more 'main character' than any other common character arc trope you'd find in other classes? But idk maybe that's just me. Likewise the response being the character question was always self evident to me, but I'm also not a person who ever thought fighter was boring knowing you'd have to bring ideas to it so clearly I shouldn't consider myself the baseline. Love the new sub tho!!! I think it fits super well, and there's so much to play around with!

[@colinakersakers44]

Yeah his logic for them being innately MCS kinda falls flat if you apply it to other classes. If anything Paladins give me more chosen one vibes. Or even his favorite class, Cleric (which can literally ask for divine intervention, and gets their power from being such an oh so good worshipper that their god gives them powers)

[@Merilirem]

@@colinakersakers44 Cleric not really. Clerics are rare when it comes to chosen one stories because they have to be followers of the god in a more concrete way. Chosen ones typically fall under personal specialness of some kind. So here's the common culprits. Warlock - Pacts with demons are a classic. There is literally an anime called Black Clover where the MC may as well be a Hexblade Warlock. Its easy power with plot stuff to go with it and no need for study which is boring. As for who chose, well its the demon or whatever. Sorcerer - Yes, they have innate magic and that means you can skip study and training even. Just have them do magic whenever you need it. Born better. Paladin - Either blessed by gods while on a mission or possessing a will so powerful it becomes capable of performing miracles via a promise you made to never give up or whatever. Yeah this is VERY main character even if its not chosen one specifically. Also its a knight in shining armor which is a classic. Druid - This is a funny one but woodland critters and nature being your backup is pretty common too. The tree's chose you and you speak for them child of the forests. Eldritch Knight fighter - This is for when you want your chosen hero to learn some magic tricks but not really be a boring wizard. They just had enough of a spark to learn magic so they did, but not really.

[@Merilirem]

He has definitely been scarred by stranger players and DMs. Playing a sorcerer just means you were born gifted. It fits perfectly for nobles and chosen ones sure but no one needs to choose you because you have inherent magical talents.

[@condimentking3395]

You can have the same level of issue as choosing a relevant race to a campaign when other's didn't. In the dragon example, what happens if you are the only dragonborn? I've never seen either player or DM make these types of thematic choices problematic to either the story or party dynamic

[@Black_golem]

I have never played or had a player make a sorcerer that’s backstory is “they’re practically the main character”. if anything, they’re all sad boys with daddy issues

[@soldierbreed]

Yeah ive never seen it either, or even heard of it being a thing in someone elses game.

[@heliosfromacrossastar878]

​@@soldierbreed I can definitely see it happen, because sorcerers give very little other roleplay prompts other than a chosen one narrative. Which can easily lead to a main character. If you want to see it in action, watch what happens with Imogen in Campaign 3 in Critical role. No hate to Critical Role at all, but in Campaign 3 Imogen kind of becomes the main character of the storyline.

[@ExileTwilight]

@@heliosfromacrossastar878 Have been meaning to watch Critical Role sometime, but not really gotten around to it so dunno how bad/annoying this might be, but for any long running campaign stuff I think it can make sense to have a bigger story focus around a particular character and their motivation/backstory etc. If it's more of a short-term thing, then yeah, don't do that xD

[@soldierbreed]

@@heliosfromacrossastar878 i dont see how having powers from birth equates to chosen one. In my admittedly limited experience socrs are played more like X-Men than anything. This argument is like saying celric is a bad class cause in any theology heavy campaign especially one centered on their god they will rp like the chosen one

[@RositaDepre]

My sorcerer is literally a young half-dead artificial girl looking for meaning as a person, her power itself (wich is Shadow Magic bc of being a frankenstein style aglomeration of souls) comes more as a characteristic that constantly ties her to her creator/mother figure than then center of her character, and despite giving her certain quirks, it is the narrative of her current story what pushed her to adventure and in no moment does it make her the main character, I actually play her as a kind of passive support until time naturally comes to collaborate with the party or her specific goals. Altough we are a "young" group of DND and that may influence, but the point is that it's easy to go for any direction with a class like Sorcerer, especially with how open it is at it's origin how a sorcerer can come to be.

[@IHaveAName1824]

Pointy hat: dislikes sorcerers for having main character syndrome Also pointy hat: creates a main character

[@autobotskyflame6287]

I've never understood that complaint. They have the potential for powers, but they have to work to develop them do they not? Feels like the creator might have had a bad experience at a game or something where he felt sidelined by the sorcerer and it clouds judgement. Or maybe it is just the memes.

[@christianevald]

Correct. They don't suddenly wake up one day knowing how to cast a fireball faster than a wizard, just like a fighter don't one day wake up suddenly knowing how to handle their sword better. Both classes learn their skills through life experience and training. A wizards spends time studying books while a sorcerer experiment with their own power, testing it, trying different things with it until they discover something that works. A cleric though...."please Santa, I wish for a little more power this Christmas, I promise, I have been a very good boy"

[@RositaDepre]

The best way to see Sorcerer is to compare them to an old generation Omega level mutant from Marvel, like Magneto, he is currently a planetary and sometimes even solar level of threat, he was always an Omega level mutant in potential and recognized as such but he had to develope his powers a lot to reach his current level. The same happens with Sorcerers, they're more direct relation with the weave inmediately gives them much more potential but it will still require effort to come to the point where they can alter reality/cast Wish. Depending on the narrative/world someone doesn't even reach inmediately lvl1 just bc of being a Sorcerer.

[@Terestrasz]

Probably, but even then? My experience is that the most "Main character" types who try to shove everyone out of the limelight are the paladins, warlocks, and clerics. Almost all the time they end up saying "No, I'M the face!" or "I'M the one who is on a mission from $Deity!"

[@benhaver9737]

His other videos are a LOT better than this. Idunno what got into him for this one

[@DaMuss-e2w]

@@christianevald Cleric is not just asking, as you mentioned its being a good boy to get christmas presents, so they have to serve their deities interests, and that can include work and danger depending on the deity and the church. So usually for all the classes to progress some of that has to be earnt.

[@xpdragon3173]

14:23 For those looking for this subclass, it is called Clockwork Soul, not Arcane Soul.

[@neptune7042]

im running a dragon themed campaign and i was worried id accidentally slip into chosen one stuff when my sorcerer went draconic but then EVERY SINGLE PARTY MEMBER INDEPENDANTLY CHOSE A DRACONIC SUBCLASS

[@voltage6338]

Sounds fun

[@thepenrosetriangle5823]

Gods bless Fizbans Treasury🙏

[@HagathaHexMe]

In my settings I made it so that being a sorcerer is like being a mage in the dragon age series. Unlike every other class that goes through intensive studying and training to learn how to wield and control magic, sorcerers are born with magic but without control. A sorcerer's powers are often sparked by intense emotions during adolescence and can be quite destructive, thus sorcerers are viewed as being inherently dangerous. And, like the dragons and faeries that people hunt down for money, sorcerers are also valuable magical creatures because they are literally living magical batteries. Being a sorcerer means having to constantly convince yourself and everyone around you that you are in control and defending yourself from any potential threats trying to kill or enslave you. So much like the all powerful dragons who must hide their dens and wear disguises to not be constantly hounded, so to must the sorcerers. Even sorcerers from established families have to be careful to not get held for ransom, murdered by an opposing family, and so on. Sorcerers don't just inherit the might of magical creatures, but the unwanted attention it brings too.

[@sasukeslilbro]

My sorcerer has a story somewhat aligned with this. He’s a Storm Sorcerer born from a long line of elemental sorcerers. Unfortunately, due to his well known lineage and his power, he’s been constantly targeted by pirates, nobles, and mercenaries hoping exploit his abilities for their own gain. He’s constantly on guard and has never been away from his family for his own protection. Until our current campaign and now he’s with group of people he doesn’t know if he can trust and so he’s very to himself and doesn’t want attention on him at all, but is forced to because of the charisma stat. So yeah it’s easy to make it so that a sorcerer is not the “main character” or “ chosen one”.

[@thedoctor6265]

chosen one dnd narrative, where everyone is the party is a different take on the chosen one

[@joeycrunch]

Omg this sounds amazing 😂 so much plot fodder here! 💡

[@marcusstusek5843]

“Sorcerers are inherently the chosen one” is a hot take when Warlocks exist, imo. Especially in terms of what happens at the table; sorcerers get their PC introduced, and that’s usually one of the last times their origin has massive relevance, whereas a warlock has a continuing and evolving relationship with their patron that means they’ll need to get a lot of narrative focus.

[@pwnorbepwned]

Yeah, “risked their soul to get their powers” is such a narrow view of warlocks. Especially when “is romantically involved with their patron who gives powers as a gift” or “accepted a role given them by a benevolent patron that literally CHOSE them” are examples of warlock-patron relationships given IN THE BOOKS. Not all warlocks are soul-selling fiendlocks.

[@Terestrasz]

@@pwnorbepwned I imagine Warlocks who gain powers from extradimensional entities who make you sell things. "Support for today's encounter is made possible by the Skills Hare."

[@Terestrasz]

Don't forget Paladins and Clerics.

[@FubblerCo.]

18:30 whaaaaaat? You don't like it when every single fe protagonist is actually the child of a dragon god? How man its so interesting! Especially after the 14th time!

[@damianwayne-al-ghul]

"I guess someone out there is making a melee sorcerer" It's me I'm the melee sorcerer player!

[@odalicio]

My condolences

[@novahthemisfit6569]

Mine is always carrying daggers for this type of situation!!

[@Scalesthelizardwizard]

Good luck

[@nicolasmateomolina.2689]

I want to make a melee Sorcerer subclass, any cool ideas?

[@cassianomatias1170]

@@nicolasmateomolina.2689 half-orc shadow magic sorcerer, tried myself last year, ooh boy you're never getting down with this one get green-flame blade, shadow blade, spirit shroud or shadow of moil and you got the game

[@justinn8541akaDrPokemon]

Wizard: I got my magic through studying. Cleric: I got it through my devotion. Warlock: I got it through my contracts. Bard: I got it through my charm. Sorcerer: You guys have to do stuff for your magic?

[@spo0pti304]

warlocks are clerics but they're done pretending

Bards used to be the same as Sorcerer in third edition. In fact, there was whole lore section that made Bard magic come from Dragons.

[@adri745k]

Bards : "Well i just insulted a guy one day and he fucking died on the spot"

[@AegixDrakan]

My Sorcerer: "I got mine because a distant ancestor made a pact with a brass dragon, that any descendants of theirs who was Born With The Scales would have a responsibility to go out and do good in the world. I am physically incapable of settling down, this innate wanderlust is VERY compelling!"

[@MumboJ]

@@spo0pti304 warlocks are clerics but they just want to get the deal in writing so they can be sure.

[@Shifterwizard]

I am continually amazed that no setting makes Sorcerers associated with Nobility. Their power is inherited, they're all about bloodlines, etc. You could totally make that fit with the noble classes, and could even have different noble houses be associated with different magical bloodlines as a way to give them flavor!

[@raphaelalexandreyensen6291]

I mean I do it homebrew for the Reasons you listed, so im sure other DM's do too, mind you with noble Privileges comes Obligations because that's how feudalism works.

[@chongwillson972]

@Shifterwizard wait wouldn't that mean kobolds are very likely to be nobles as well?

[@feralart]

Mageocracy as a form of government does have an established basis in D&D settings. So it is completely justifiable to have the noble houses have sorcerous bloodlines.

[@nicholaswalsh4462]

Heard, Understood, Acknowledged. Adding that to my Pike and Shotte setting.

[@Terestrasz]

Dark Sun.

[@DFAnton]

I...have never, ever considered that sorcerers by nature might cause things to trend toward a chosen one narrative? Your criticism actually kinda floored me with how out of nowhere I found it. Like, I guess so? Your dragon example kinda makes sense? But that's not called making someone a chosen one. It's called giving someone a thematic link to the plot. And the sorcerers having abilities beyond their control is literally the entire point. Why is it weird or bad or undesirable for one class out of the entire roster to differ on this point?

[@gavina1395]

Sorcerer's are one of my faaavorite classes for backstories. I feel like I can get so creative with how a sorcerer got their magic

[@Grayves_X]

I swear you made a way more main character syndrome pc than a regular sorcerer. Nothing about sorcerer makes it a main character, it's all in the background and yours is one the campaign would have to revolve around or not matter at all.

[@Merilirem]

He definitely did. Cursed main characters, that's almost just harry potter. He seems to think the way you gain your powers is how you have to define your character.

[@tonytheparamorestan]

agreed, I don't understand his point at all, it's all up to how the player chooses to act during the game, not the source of their power like wtf??? my character was an annoying noble sorcerer and even he was never the main character. when something wasn't within his wheelhouse why would he be the main character. a player in the game that I run is a noble sorcerer too, he also has his niche due to his... personality not the fact that he is a sorcerer??

[@testerbcu]

Yea, this video got a weird vibe… like he got 2 bad players with chosen syndrome and by chance they were sorcerers; so I guess they are all like this?

[@feralart]

It all falls to the player, really. You have to know when to step back and let someone else shine, and when to do so yourself.

[@Grayves_X]

@@feralart yeah, but I feel that can easily happen with any class clerics and warlocks feel like the most main character classes to me. A sorcerer can have where their power came from barely affect them. My sorcerer has it written into his backstory where his power came from, but it's generations in the past. Where as the shadow sorcerer in my party that I'm currently playing in doesn't ever have anything about the origins of his power come up. I don't know if the player even knows. As you said it's down to the player. I just don't think the sorcerer class ever has to have it be a main aspect of their character where as a deity or other planar character always giving the power (such as cleric or warlock) is much more likely to be a main character

[@maxwellfillingim777]

Just discovered Pointy Hat last week. I think I’ve watched almost every video now. Thank you Pointy Hat. You the best. ❤

[@giasharie274]

Average discovering Pointy Hat experience (Welcome!)

[@mbuhtz]

I also binged Pointy Hat as soon as I found him

[@nyanbrox5418]

Sorcerers can easily be the result of magical experiments, and the neat part about that is they could have been a *willing* participant Now I wanna play a sorcerer

[@Scalesthelizardwizard]

Now, I got the idea of a Draconic Sorcerer that got their powers when by having their heart replaced with a dragon's heart

[@althelor]

Honestly I find the idea that they *weren't* a willing participant in the experiment more interesting. Especially if the person doing the experiment is still alive, because that person might not be happy about their guinea pig having escaped before the experiment was finished. Or maybe the experiment was a failure and was supposed to do something completely different and now the person behind the experiment is after the sorcerer to clean up loose ends, or maybe it could be a Frankenstein situation where the mad scientist/wizard was disgusted by the results and the sorcerer escaped and now their creator is on the run from them.

[@sixaethereal5011]

usually a big fan of your class fixes, but the “cursed one” sorcerer sounded like the MOST protagonist-y one, which is exactly what you were trying to avoid

[@johnathanmonsen6567]

My man really made his Cursed One Sorceror just a British Noble with Body Dismorphia.

[@QuickSilverAdventuringLeague]

I agree that Sorcerer's can view themselves as the chosen one but as a DM you don't have to agree. I ran a game for years with a Sorcerer that thought himself to be the chosen one. Though the party and the world did not get the memo. It led to some great roleplaying moments throughout the campaign I always enjoy your videos and sub class ideas!

[@FireStorm_117]

**Looks at spherical one-eyed creature** “Why does it look like it hurts to be you?” *Says the pointy one-eye wizard hat*

[@tastytjustice]

The whole "cursed sorcerer" idea was actually something really similar to a character a friend of mine helped me build in Pathfinder, a D&D 3.5 inspired system. I love D&D, but at times I do like to like at D&D related systems for this reason!

[@nihili4196]

My favourite flavour of socerer is the "I was engineered to do something" kind, where the reason they're powerful is pretty much magical eugenics, with a hint of evil parents

[@DanielSteinmetz-vf9sq]

I played a sorcerer who was "The Chosen One" but that was because he was from a super soldier program to find a worthy host of a dragons power.

[@DanielSteinmetz-vf9sq]

And he was the one that survived

[@joecool2721]

thats pretty cool

[@ethanbaer65]

Bro one of my favorite sorcerers is the one from the DnD movie because his whole deal is he sucks at magic. His big character moment is being good at magic. 😂

[@xmanwes3882]

Been so excited for this one! Thank you, Lord Hat. Sending all the love and well wishes. Also, my favorite term to use for the new innate sorcery feature is "mage rage"

[@darktigersharkmax4432]

Guess Pointy Hat must hate the Dark Urge in BG3 then going by how he worded his dislike of sorcerers

[@cranederoc]

Sometimes I feel like you creating problems for you to solve, never saw this issue with sorcerers in any game with sorcerers ever.

[@Merilirem]

Oracle is THE chosen one class from Pathfinder and he made it while trying to avoid chosen ones.

[@kayleyanna3164]

I feel like in looking at chosen ones for sorcerers, people often forget that being a chosen one tends to be a pretty bad time. I'm a big fan of magic as a curse for sorcerers. My favourite sorcerer is a divine soul sorcerer I made who's family was blessed by a sun god a few generations back. Thing is, their mortal bodies can't handle the divine blood they've been given. It burns inside their veins and has caused every generation of her family to die young. This character now seeks to end the divinity of her bloodline before it kills her. Either by fulfilling some unknown destiny the god blessed them to fulfill in the first place, or finding some ulternative to end her family's suffering. This character was inspired by my own experience with chronic pain and the fear of dying young that comes from being born with chronic illness. Haven't gotten a chance to play her yet, but she's one of my favs.

[@kingpinogaming3366]

sorcerer to me is about having more magic than you can control. Wizards study so they can cast fireball, sorcerers study so they dont die by fireball.

[@sandmanlives3]

Excellent, as always. Thank you!

[@tiredofeverything2771]

A shadow sorcerer i used to play had the blood magic explained as “a ritual that was tradition for the firstborn son to undergo” as a coming of age thing. It destroyed your soul and connected you to an afterlife in a demiplane with everyone who underwent the ritual, but you got shadow magic

[@dewaunwarren1]

I always saw sorcerers as the privilege/talented people in society. But I wouldn't consider them chosen ones because so many people in their world have powers and are just like them. So they're really not "special" just lucky. Like "of course you're good at basketball you're 7 ft tall, but that doesn't make you the next LeBron."

[@alexrawlings541]

I have the clip of Marth telling Toothpaste-chan they are the Fire Emblem saved on my Switch and I watch it more often than I'd like to admit. Peak dialogue

[@DBArtsCreators]

Cleric: I was chosen by god or a primordial force Druid: I went through the druidic rites to gain the favor of nature. Wizard: I studied the books of magic for years. Warlock: I made a deal and got some power on loan. I think I meant to do that? Bard: Song & dance baby! Fighter: I fight so much that I got good. Ranger: I found purpose in hunting & survival. Rogue: I got my brain and I run fast. Monk: I've trained & meditated for years and am working to become enlightened. Paladin: I have sworn upon my soul to fulfill a purpose. Barbarians: A N G R Y Sorcerer: I was born this way, hey! (ignore the weird thing I drank two days before I cast my first spell). I'd say the sorcerer isn't the only one that doesn't have to "earn" their power/class/subclass all the time. Fighters, Rogues, Barbarians, Warlocks & Clerics can just as easily use the "I'm just born that way" trope, and sorcerers can likewise be made to have to earn their powers (perhaps they needed to be imbibed with them, which took some effort, or they had to awaken them and are continuing down that path). All depends on how the setting handles sorcerers.

[@AnonEcho98]

...So, your solution to the issue of "Sorcerers just randomly get their powers" is.... to go Warlock, and that the powers are shunted onto you? Not very sorcerer, imo.

[@Finalplayer14]

The origin of a Sorcerer's sorcery can come from pretty much anywhere- the only limit being you can not learn or practice your way into getting the power like Bards, Druids, or Wizards. Some examples from the books "An ancient dragon facing death bequeathed some of its magical power to you" or "You were blessed by a fey being or marked by a demon." or "You were implanted with a mind flayer tadpole, but your transformation into a mind flayer never occurred" You could even go the route of having to earn your powers via impressing a creature to get its blessing/boon. The end point being "You've got magic that is within you now and you'll have to work to hone and control it." The important aftermath of this, is understanding how your character responds to these powers, how the world responds to them, and what they plan on doing with them.

[@ThePa1riot]

Well if the powers are indeed shunted on to the character, that IS very Sorcerer and NOT very Warlock. The Warlock must always make the deal him or herself, if the magic is simply foisted on to someone by something outside of their control with no decision made on the character's part, that's a Sorcerer.

[@AnonEcho98]

@@ThePa1riot I realize I might've misphrased myself. What I meant was that the powers being granted by someone else feels more Warlock-ish than Sorcerer. And like, there're such things as Deals you can't refuse. Those're p much a case of powers being shunted onto someone.

[@christurner5791]

Arcane Soul? Did you mean Clockwork Soul? You described Clockwork Soul to a tee. I'm confused... But intrigued. Also amazing video thank you!

[@georgebeswick7549]

Shadow Sorcerers: "Are we a Joke to you?"

[@retroicdescent]

Shadow Druids: "Yes."

[@wyrmghost]

Me playing a wild magic sorcerer orphan tiefling who knows nothing about his magic and is terrified of it but slowly learning how to use it seeing this video HELL YEAH

[@Shadowvanify]

I’ve played almost exactly the same type of character. She was born into a cult to elemental evil and was used as a baby in a failed ritual to turn her into an avatar of fire, but a shard of the plane of fire is now embedded in her. Her wild magic and status as a failure caused her family and the cult to drive her out at a young age. She eventually was found by a group of Knowledge clerics who helped train her to control her magic surges through study and meditation.

[@morganmcinroy4211]

Very similar to a shadow sorcerer I am playing but, you know, shadowy magic instead @@Shadowvanify

[@motymurm]

It's such a bad faith arguing about sorcerer's character fantasy I don't even want to address that.

[@CarlosAlvarez-yx6vl]

What do you mean?

[@carpedm9846]

Sorc is no more a chosen one than a tiefling. In fact, they are just different ways the same phenomenon comes into being. If you are extending chosen one like that, then you should also have a problem with paladins, clerics, warlocks, (depending on flavor)barbarians, tieflings, aasimar, and like 90% of rogue backstories. Did you survive a dark magic attack and now you have a shard of magic in you? Congrats, shadowfell sorcerer. No more chosen one than "oh yeah this guy managed to make a deal with a devil" or "this guy can channel divine domains" or even "unlike us, when steve gets angry he becomes bulletproof"

[@heathrileyy]

At around 13:20 in the video I wanted to take a moment to really appreciate your way of understanding other people's enjoyment of the game. That level of understanding and acceptance needs to be practiced more often. I also don't want 4 hours of fart jokes, but when things are too serious and not fun.... what was the point again? Your ability to let people enjoy things is greatly appreciated!

[@ethanemerson4862]

My one complaint about the subclass you made is the level 14 skill: “You can sacrifice a number of your own hit points equal to your sorcerer level, or a number of another creature’s hit points equal to double your sorcerer level, to use a metamagic option you do not have access to.” There’s no saving throw! You can just sabotage your party by constantly draining them without their consent!

[@hulmhochberg8129]

"MANY OF YOU MAY DIE, BUT THAT IS A SACRIFICE I AM WILLING TO MAKE!"

[@pointyhatstudios]

Oh i see the confusion, it's supposed to be damage dealt, like its main ability, not just "you do it". I'll make the wording clearer

[@ethanemerson4862]

@@pointyhatstudios thank you.🙏

[@nyanbrox5418]

The player can't do that because there is a little something I'd do called fluffing banning them

[@mobgabriel1767]

i swear i COMPLETELY FORGOT about the 2024 PHB until you brought it up i'm not kidding XD

[@joshua1201]

It's so good. Bought 3 for my group we are eager to switch over.

[@AndrewJohnson-oy8oj]

Seriously, if KZbin creators stopped talking about it, it would cease to exist in populat culture altogether.

[@curiouswind9196]

I like when the sorcerers are sorcerers because of an accident rather than being "chosen", a freak accident rather than being special. Or what Morrowind did and you are only "chosen" by name. But my fav is the "a magically gifted sorcerer who grew up in a small community where they were special, thrust upon the world by outside forces where they are not as special.

[@aafuuu]

@27:17 sure sounds like the old day is a chosen one. It's the staple of your characters background here 👀 We still love you for the fantastic videos and I love the humour. Never stop! I will always keep liking your videos!

[@X20Adam]

Saying Sorcerer's have the worst flavor is actually an insane take lmao.

[@Junkzillabox]

I think sorcerers can be very interesting. They are basically mutants from comic books.

[@Chaosmancer7]

I think there is a lot of good potential in a sorcerer who did not choose their power. Someone who wakes up with magic, no idea why and barely able to control it? They have a vastly different story than someone who devoted themselves to a pursuit of magical power

[@Zagaroth]

I am amused that the hat with an eye is upset about the clockwork 'minions'...

[@DerKaetzer]

I love your videos and your creative work you put not only into them, but into improving the shortcomings of D&D. Thanks a lot, Mr. Pointy Hat, and the lowly familiar! ❤

[@IamUgusuha]

on the point of sorcerers being "obligatory chosen ones" - i played around wirh it for one of my characters, by using YOUR subclass of... warlock. my boy, Abzu, comes from noble family of draconic sorcerers, is unlucky enough so he does not have any magic in his blood, and one edgy backstory with both of his parents diyng later, ma boi inherets some kind of pearl from his mother, and a letter with requesr to deliver it to the highest mountain in the region. in the process Abzu loses his eye, and have a briliant idea to hide this pearl in his eye socket (bro has -2 int) uppon reaching this mountain, Abzu comes in contact with ancient silver dragon, Richter, whos patronage was the reason his whole family gained sorcerous powers, and dragon forms a pact with Abzu, in gratitude for delivering long lost dragon egg in his eye for them. still waiting for a campaing to play the guy in tho...

[@Merilirem]

Warlocks are classic chosen ones. I mean how many stories have demon pacts and stuff? So many anime like Black Clover are warlocks. Honestly so are Paladins especially since they are now powered by their own Oaths and not direct divine intervention of any kind. I mean whats more main character than believing in something so hard to perform miracles?

[@Doublemonk0506]

​@Merilirem , if by chosen one warlock you mean tragic figure damned to Hell because the moron made a deal with the devil, sure.

[@Pseudoaquanaut]

I think my favorite sorcerer narratives are ones where the character tries to carve out an ordinary life for themselves. I think it’s why I like superheros, or otherwise supernatural characters, who are parents; because they don’t want to be special great heroes of the prophecy of protagonistia, they want to be comfortable and happy.

[@RBG-ky5vj]

You know what, You are a really cool dude, and I really really like your content, I have never played DnD is my life and it not really accessible where I am at, but you and the other creators on KZbin have literally turned me into a DnD nerd, Just wanted to let your know Pointy Hat is Awesome and more power and love to their human familiar...Have a good day !!

[@blackoutsampler9993]

I feel the complaint about the Sorcerers being a "Boring Class" because "There is nothing interesting in how they got their powers" is inherently flawed as it fundamentally works off the principle that: POWER = INTERESTING Which is the same idea that causes the flood of Mary Sues in fanfiction to this day. At the end of the day ANY class can be played to the most boring degree. After a certain point it's not the class that's the problem but the player playing it. And being 'THE protagonist of D&D' isn't limited to just Sorcerers. Any player can fall into that if the DM isn't careful. Like all of your complaints about Sorcerers can be leveled at Spiderman. He didn't WORK for his power, it was just fate/happenstance. But Peter Parker is still a compelling character, both in crossovers/Superhero Teams and in Solo comics. So what's the problem?

[@grinningxspade8374]

So the twist idea is basically the Oracle class from pathfinder 2e.

[@BrenGamerYT]

Man I hate standing too close to magic uranium and getting magic powers, throws off my whole day.

[@claytonharting9899]

This video inspired me to make a sorcerer in the “I got magical radiation poisoning” category who got there by their own choices. They were a friend and follower of a globally/regionally (depending on campaign scale) controversial figure and actively chose to continue to be by their side as that friend pushed things too far - kingdoms poured their ancient reserve spell scrolls on the friend, like a magical nuke, irradiating the now-sorcerer PC. The friend can have survived the attack by a mysterious benefactor, or have died. Whichever the DM decides is best for the campaign. But I think this is a fun backstory for a sorcerer! It comes with a built in character goal too - find the friend they were separated from during the nuking (or discover that they’re dead). The subclass you gave us would be perfect for this I think. The magical radiation makes the PC all melty, especially when they use it

[@GoldfishEmpire]

You haven't lived until you fireball yourself and the entire party at LV1. Wild Magic is 10/10.

[@gabrielloaiza9069]

How many other sorcerers showed up like, excuuuuse me, dafuck you say hat?

[@S_OME_1NE]

I am currently running a campaingn where one of my PC's is playing a wild magic sorcerer named Scruflles. Scruflles has currently murdered over 50 people

[@thegayghost872]

Is he like a dog person, or?

[@S_OME_1NE]

@@thegayghost872 he named him scruffles to make it stupider, since its usually a dog name

[@dionysus_adores]

My partner was a fey of wild magic. Did you know the table has raining down animals as one. Like free food but not very helpful when counter spell or revivify is cast

[@TipsyDjinn]

If I know one thing playing DnD Scruflles needs to up his numbers 🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@Zulkak1357]

Pathetic He appears to be playing around if he only has that many kills

[@TheStarman2021]

I always preferred sorcerers as getting their powers from being exposed to magic. It's less being chosen and more totally random. Born on midnight of the longest night with the stars in the correct position? You might awaken later in life to shadow-based magics. Did the biggest storm ever seen roll into your town one day, and you were struck by lightning? And instead of death, you received a sliver of power from the plane of air? Maybe you had an adventurer parent exposed to some insane magic that left an imprint on their bloodline? This kind of story worked better when there were more options for sorcerous power.

[@WolfyBritishGuy]

Me, standing on the Pathfinder side of the fence: "Hey! Oracle class! The D&D folks are talking about you!" Seriously though, this sounds a lot like how the Oracle class in PF2e works, the only difference being that you don't curse other people. Your curse manifests itself more and more depending on which class features you use, but can both be a boon and a hinderance, depending how much it's affecting you. Also, on you using BOF4 footage: HUZZAH! A man of quality!

[@pheonixpidgey5294]

A nice flavor that is actually given as an example in the Player Handbook is that Draconic Sorcerers can recieve their powers through a pact or blessing with a dragon. Actually same with Fey and Demons, the PH says that the blessing of a Dryad or the touch of a Demon can spark wild magic sorcery.

[@thegayghost872]

I’m about to play a sorcerer in Wild Beyond the Witchlight, so this came at the best time

[@danieltodorov7753]

You're awesome for knowing the W.I.T.C.H. cartoon series existed.

[@digifreak90]

It's a good show. I wish it hadn't gotten cancelled after season 2.

[@danieltodorov7753]

​@@digifreak90 Same, it had good writers, we could have gotten a lot more great stories with the characters if it wasn't struck down before its time.

[@dnd5thedition]

Agree with another comment that mentioned sorcerers are the only caster class that didn’t choose their powers, and for this reason, I’ve always seen sorcerers as more of a race than a class. Just like how a tiefling is born with infernal traits or how an elf have pointy ears, a sorcerer has ancestral traits that molds them into capable spellcasters more unique than anyone else in variety and sheer power.

[@prasiolite]

Sorcerers are just members of the X-Men, really.

[@syrupchugger421]

Another fun, creative, and helpful video and ideas. You rock pointy. Thanks again!

[@erikire_353]

I actually played a sorcerer who was insecure because he thought he waisted the gift he got and he actually wanted to change something and do something great 😊

[@LadyTsunade777]

Sorcerer has long been one of my two favorite classes (with Cleric) because of the variety in both play and lore. Lore-wise, you can have the source of your power be nearly anything. Yes, your grandma having _relations_ with a dragon is _one_ choice, but there are so many more. Remember back to Pointy Hat's video on Dragonborn and how he made people that were imbued by dragons? Just do that for a dragon sorc; or have your character be a dark experiment by a cult or secret government group where they unwillingly injected you with dragon blood / grafted dragon parts onto you in an effort to create a super caster. Or for some other sources, how about one of my characters? He started as a Cleric of Talos, and after impressing Talos enough with his actions, Talos saw fit to imbue him with a fraction of his stormy power, and thus my character went from just a Tempest Cleric to being a Tempest Cleric / Storm Sorcerer. Perhaps a spirit or otherworldly being (benevolent, malevolent, or neutral) is inhabiting your body, and takes over in times of stress or need. Perhaps a meteor shower destroyed your home village, one exploded as it struck your house, and a shard got stuck in your body. Perhaps you were transported to another plane at an early age, and had to adapt to survive in your new environ. It doesn't always have to be nepo, or main character syndrome. Sorcerer just means your magic is inherent, not learned. Your magic comes from a source outside your control / choice. It doesn't specifically only mean you're the next in a long line of ancestry casters. Motivations can include things like: finding out why your ancestor had that relationship, but also for the above: why did that cult / government group do those experiments, how far am I willing to go for the being that gave me some of their power, why is that spirit / being inhabiting your body and what ties them to you specifically / to the world, maybe you want to find a way to get rid of your powers because you were raised to think they are an aberration and you are not normal so you seek to remove that meteor shard from your body, or perhaps you want to reintegrate yourself into normal society after having grown up in another plane entirely.

[@michalkrizan6475]

I like this idea but... how is Ed not the main character? Also, there is a literal magical granny who gave him powers :D maybe Im missing something

[@Dndpersonyepdatsme]

I play my sorcerer as a normal person who went on a mission to receive their powers, to become a draconic sorcerer, but failed and is now a wild magic sorcerer. He now strives to remove this power, for it is seen as evil in their clan.