Politeness or clarity?

[@stefan.astrand]

Could not have agreed more. I have a diverse professional background and have interacted with a variety of people, in different industries across the world. Since I started working as a developer I have found that many people of this profession, despite being highly intelligent, are in fact quite emotionally immature. Having a natural predisposition for analytical and objective thinking is great for building software but not necessary for building meaningful and healthy relationships. I would argue that communicating with a person who is not connected with their own emotions and insecurities, even if very technically inclined exerts more effort than with someone who has the emotional skills but lacks the technical expertise.

[@DankoStojanovic]

You do know you just proved his point, right? Stefan, right and to the point. Elitism is often found in such societies and we should all fight it.

[@paligamy93]

I think its a problem with how old the industry is. People are hired based on their ability to program not communicate, even though i agree with you that communication is much more valuable (I can teach a child to program, i can't teach an adult not to cuss at clients ro admit they shredded the repo ). So who's hiring the socially inept? Gotta be the ones still in the industry since the 70's right now right (~60)? HR just looks at who has the best accolades and passes them along to the people in the dept. who actually do the hiring. So they probably aren't filtering for emotional maturity. Then you think who's at the top of the food chain for most of these small to medium places? some guy who started in the 70's because they loved it and didn't do it for the money because they love it. Now they're hiring the ones who love it because who doesn't love seeing themselves in other people? Once the number of programmers goes up (as it will), and the older generation retire, i feel like the socially inept will be pushed to the top of the food chain then asked to leave because the CIO can't deal with the lead programmers anymore and promotes the next guy down. Meaning as the industry goes into its stable years you'll find more stable people. That's my guess.

[@SonnyDarvish]

@@a_name662 Kappa (p.s. I don't think they understand you)

[@iAmTheSquidThing]

I once heard it explained like this: Most people apply tact to everything they say. Some (including most nerds) apply tact to everything they hear. These two types of people find it hard to get along. The latter finds the former timid and disingenuous. The former finds the latter rude.

[@Deidde]

I believe it goes both ways. People need to know how to ask the most effective questions while staying polite too. If you've ever had beginners ask you a question about something they don't understand, they will often ask the wrong question (not asking about what they really want to do) or just be framing a complaint so they can rant a little (and talk about their favourite language). It really takes at least two to communicate; it's good to remember that you will assume both sides in your life and do the best you can with either. I've also noted another phenomenon: I spend a lot of time on developer/language IRC channels, and the people that reply most often to questions (even the same questions repeatedly) tend to remove much of that politeness. Eventually, they even trigger pre-written answers from bots instead of addressing the person directly. It's somewhat understandable that if you're repeating a task over and over, you become more efficient with conveying the information; not that it's good for each person that's asking, but it's a compromise from someone that is volunteering their time to share expertise. Lastly, you can go *too* far with the consideration in conversation. It's good to tailor your communication to the person you're speaking with - we should all be doing that naturally anyway - but some people fall into the trap of coming across as condescending, overly fluffy or unsure. As @Chris Cook puts it, `I feel the ideal answer to a question is one where the tone is not a distraction to the content`

[@__redacted__]

This is underrated when working with teams, so it's great you've brought it up. You could make the point that **empathy** leads to less noise, and fewer misunderstandings. And when there are fewer issues, and everyone collectively understands the domain better, everyone's happier.

[@elifazfilho8157]

I couldn’t agree more. I’ve encountered people in previous jobs that although their knowledge was right and on the edge, they lacked a lot of touch and communication. For someone that is willing to learn, that person would not only read your thoughts but also your body movement, gestures and how you are communicating. Knowledge is so fragile and the way you communicate can definitely cause an impact to your audience. Sometimes I run the explanation in my head prior to tell that to someone just so I can make it right for them and I wish people would do this more often.

[@qwarlockz8017]

Thanks MPJ as always words we all need to hear. When I started coding RTFM was the response you most often got from asking questions. This was always after days of pouring through manuals and web sites and everything else I could find. You always felt like you had to go through lots of abuse from people just to get the information you were looking for. I HATED that. I think it comes from that feeling of uncertainty that most developers seem to have at their core. There are those like you that accept it and are comfortable showing "the work". Some of the best parts of your videos are when something went wrong and you had to go back through and figure it out (usually speeded up!). It shows us that the real work flow does not look like most KZbin videos and shows you have a solid self confidence in your abilities. It is one of the things we appreciate most about your vids.

[@LordVarkson]

Thanks for the great rundown on the topic, it was insightful to say the least. While not in the scope of the video, I'd have really appreciated a bit more discussion on the core of the issue around Stack Overflow. Even if they sort out the civility problem, there's still a pretty big problem in how to craft an answer for the audience. See, on SO the answers aren't intended specifically to benefit the one who asked the question, it's about creating value for the community. With that in mind, the one who asked the question isn't necessarily the audience that's going to get the most value out of it. That makes it really hard to know the best way to go about answering a question. You want to help out the one who asked in the first place, whilst making the answer also be useful for everyone else who finds it. I've seen some members do this really well, and others not so much.

[@wagnermoreira786]

Amazing! I love how you approach topics that are not only code, because writing code is only a slice of our job, we really need everyone with these ideas in mind, thank you!

[@tacyarg4857]

I find using empathy is the most direct route to the result that your describe.

[@Novalifee]

I just want to share some kind words. It´s been 1 week since I discovered this channel, and this is my coffee companion every morning before getting back into work. I´m learning Angular and JS, and the way you explain concepts is simply great. It`s not usual to see a programmer that makes you laught. Thanks for the effort, mpj!

[@LoveLearnShareGrow]

Agreed, and would add that civility reduces *defensiveness*, which allows your message to be more easily processed by the target audience.

[@chrishopkins652]

Nice video and I agree mostly. Playing devils advocate a little bit, In the case of Stack Overflow, I think that originally the purpose of the site was to create a resource for all developers to use. It isn't supposed to be a "please fix my code" site, more a resource that gives guidance on programming problems that everyone can use. That's why they have such a strong stance on duplicate threads. I think if your aim is to produce a generic answer that everyone can use, it could be argued that being less personable could actually be more useful.

[@smilebagsYT]

Is it a question of *or*? I feel like a tone of politeness and respect is possible to be added to any conversation, regardless of how clear you're communicating. I understand the struggle, and have fallen into that more than once before - answering questions with a hostile tone due to being tired and fed up with 'stupid questions'. It doesn't help the clarity of the answer at all, it just might temporarily make the answerer feel better. I feel the ideal answer to a question is one where the tone is not a distraction to the content. If overly polite, getting to the actual answer might be difficult. If aggressive, the tone will cause cognitive load while trying to understand the answer. Neither help communication.

[@LordVarkson]

I want to believe we could cut down on stupid questions by making effective search strategies the first thing any new developer learns, but I doubt it's that easy.

[@magicallies952]

LordVarkson Learning to be self-sufficient is certainly a good skill. The best teacher I have at the moment is a guy who believes that all questions are valid when learning something new.

[@DivusMeta]

Civilicity is the mark of professionalism. If you can't convey your communication in polite manner, YOU ARE NOT A PROFESSIONAL. Manners matter.

[@SS-jl7ig]

@mpjme... I think you guys should make a video on how workspace politics can affect a developer's ability to excel or career, how could that affect getting job else where.. I would love to take part in the video like an online chat or something...I recently lost my job due to workspace politics..It is pretty rough.. I wish you guys can motivate people who are in same boat

[@ezequielgentilemontes9721]

If the package is more important than the content, or if the content is fragmented by not having a good packaging, then we lose balance. It is interesting to see how there is so much space between your words just to communicate an idea that can be understood by a broad audience and diverse.

[@danielbreen3945]

"If they're programmers that are beginners, they're probably anxious. They're probably uncomfortable, like wondering if they're ever going to be good enough. On the other hand, if they're programmers that have been working with computers for 20 years plus then they KNOW they're never going to be good enough, so they're cool about it."

[@navroze92]

I really like this video for two main reasons. 1. Programming is not only coding and talking to people. It is more on how you do it. And this video gives the perfect illustration on how you should talk to people keeping the target audience in mind. This is something that I am still learning and had a lot of useful insights in this video. Thank you. 2. This video is leaning more towards a real life situation where you talk and interact with people. And I believe it is as important as coding. Thanks for sharing your views and ideas. I always like it when you share things that can be immediately applied in your day to day life. I would really like to see more of these videos and maybe you can share your real life experiences as examples. As always awesome work. Cheers!!

[@chrisjones469]

I think the ideas presented in this video are spot on. I'm glad someone with standing in the development community addressed it.

[@sweepstakes]

Your observations from 10:04 make me think there must be some link between empathy and improvisation.

[@coolworx]

A lot of incivility can be chalked up to frustration.

[@carlossaura403]

I really enjoyed the video, Thank you. Do you mind to recommend any kind of resource to improve the communication clarity? (books, videos, other...)

[@varan22]

As one wise man once said: "Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way, you'll be a mile from them, and you'll have their shoes."

[@sasha_prisyazhnyy]

You're so right! Even in programming we don't just have the payload or message when several entities interchange. Those are warped in protocols to be "understood" by the entities in a proper manner. "Straightforward" isn't always straightforward - sometimes it's just stupidly selfish.

[@srinivasanr6195]

Hey @MPJ can you do a video about how to iterate complex data like tree object data's. it will be more useful.

[@JoshuaHeagleDev]

Very good points about communication. As for those forums: My first and only question I posted a long time ago was a noob question about some CSS. I still can't upvote answers I appreciate, seems like my reputation will never recover unless I can find a question to answer.

[@MrMagooRC]

Communication in any field is a complex subject - you can't subject effective communication to a set of rules like you can with programming languages. The audience isn't a binary entity like a computer, it comes with it's own views, prejudices, preferences etc. I never really appreciated this until I 'jumped the shark' from programming to managing programmers; at that point I realised that while I had to communicate accurately, I had to target my audience too, and that's when the communication became 'effective'. There's so much to think about. Stock Overflow is even tougher, as typed communication loses any non-verbal communication that you get person to person; language can be tricky (many folks don't have English as a first language) and it can be all to easy to come off as an aggressive jerk.

[@Coeurebene1]

This is very important in multinational companies. Without giving too much into clichés, I saw lots of issues when Russians had to work with Indians, or Germans with Americans. Some are much more direct than others, or expect a more "positive" style of criticism.

[@TymoteuszCzech]

Interesting :) Can you elaborate on that first-hand experience? For example, with what kind of attitude communication had most clarity? Which side, in what situation and for what reason would disrupt the conversation?

[@gerardhynes9213]

Mpj, how did you become so damn eloquent in your second language? Another great video, made with kindness and intelligence and precision. Keep up the good work.

[@funfunfunction]

For written English, it's by learning it at an early age by using a non-localized version of an Amiga 1200. For understanding spoken english, it's due to the fact that in Sweden, dubbing movies is considered something that you only do for childrens movies, and all video targeted to adults is in it's original English language which means that pretty much all swedes born in the 70ies and later are pretty decent at English. (this peculiar cultural behaviour probably had massive impact on Swedens GDP). I also upped my game a LOT by working 5 years at a english-speaking workplace.

[@Ceko]

Great video man. Communication is such a big part of our life! Even though we work with computers.

[@PapaLazarou19]

Haven't you ever noticed: You're in a meeting and the conversation is nice and polite and introductory. Then the conversation really starts about the making of the software and so it gets necessarily complicated (yes I'm saying nice can't go with complexity). General observation: when dealing with something complicated, an individual, or even more so the individuals in a group, will be more stressed, be grumpy, angry, etc, especially those not used to dealing with software complexity (like clients). I think that is an observation about human nature. In addition to that, there is a moment where a conversation becomes so complicated that (at least in my experience) the socially acceptable next thing to do is to make a joke, distract/diffuse the situation, or be highly cynical, and thus avoid being sincere about the difficult things to work out. So, I do think sometimes getting rid of the 'normal' levels of politeness, or having to try much harder at it, is necessary to deal with complicated things, and this concept does not conflict with what was said in the video - you can address individuals individually but they're still going to get stressed and act poorly when dealing with complicated things. I also think even non-programmers love their complicated abstraction and simplifications, and they'll jump to hold their abstract ideas against somebody else given a chance - I suspect this is why it's tempting to think you can create a simple message/piece of deterministic code/etc, and expect everybody to understand it (like what was said in the video) especially when working with this stuff every day.

[@Pastshelfdate]

Hi, MPJ, Agreed, in general. I've heard "good manners" described as what we can do to make others as comfortable as possible. And comfortable people are more able to receive what messages we send. Some messages will cause some discomfort, no matter what. But if we make it clear that we're trying to limit the discomfort, such messages will be better received. ... Wish I felt less tired, not sure I can say all this, well enough. I think if we can make it clear that we're attacking a problem, not the person with the problem (or who has presented the problem), then we don't set off defenses that block communication. We can be direct, and clear, without making things personal. And you're right, we need to adjust how we relate, depending on with whom we're trying to connect. Think "He's such a noob"? Don't put it that way. Remember, Solomon said "Everyone sees his own way as right...." And yes, that's sexist, but that s 's the quote I've seen. Don't be sexist, and realize everyone is going to be at least a but uncomfortable, when we say "Um, that bit there is wrong, and here's why you'll be happier if you change it." And always be prepared to apologize. Just remember, on a forum, "Once bitten, twice shy," and probably never coming back.

[@ahabion]

Where'd you get that light that is mounted on your wall? Empathy is what you're describing (I believe). I tend to communicate first by listening and then with empathy and context.

[@danielsimionescu298]

Indeed, communication is so important. You are right about specific targeted communication :)

[@WaylonWalker]

Great mix up with the soft skills this week.

[@env4n3]

bob eats sent me here , and truly was good food for thought , thanks both of you:)

[@zechymahler]

I couldn't agree more. Thank for making this video!

[@paligamy93]

@4:20 Writing as i watch :) I feel like this is where crash course information is really an amazing thing here. use those hyper links to explanations of different levels of understanding. Even to some kind of introductory class or something. KZbin and the internet is too large not to be able to find someone or open course ware or what ever to show you how to think about machine learning.

[@paligamy93]

Bring people out of the beginner stage with other peoples work then specialize them with your material

[@jingle1161]

I couldn't agree more. I'm from the Netherlands where, in real life, people tend to be very "to the point", but in a friendly manner (mostly..) To communicate effectively, it's key to be direct AND stay friendly. Still, I often find social media/threads on the internet to be unnecessary rude. Communication should be a subject in school, starting in kindergarten.

[@NigelStratton]

This was an excellent video. I often avoid Stack Overflow because of its environment, that is an automatic fail. I think writing is like the stage, they tell you to be very expressive so that people can see it. Our writing needs to emphasize the kindness, it's far too easy to be grouchy and cutting. On many occasions, I have noted your ability to connect. Particularly your magnificent reactions when you reveal something in Javascript that makes my head spin. Your ability to respond to the feeling, that is rocking my world but is old to you, is awesome and very engaging. I would highly value being able to ask about javascript syntax that is unusual (at least to me). I daren't ask that on Stack Overflow but I'm not sure the comments section on KZbin is the right fit either. If it's somewhere else you have to have traffic so you don't have to answer all the questions but the videos direct the traffic to KZbin. Thoughts?

[@ricardo.mazeto]

There's no API for human communication, but we already know that there's three kind of people, 1, people who learn more easily from visual communication; 2, people who learn more easily from auditorial communicaltion; and 3, people who learn more easily kinestetically, from doing and interacting. And every piece of information can be organized on a dependency tree. Where to learn something, you need a solid foundation on other other things. e.g.: To learn calculus, you need a solid foundation on arithmetic and linear algebra.

[@dorrito]

Stack overflow was very much why it took me forever to ask questions in the coding community when I first got started. My first foray into it was...well it was scary haha.

[@konstantinnesterov6165]

Totally makes sense. But I have 2 major concerns: 1)Understanding the person who asks the question totally makes sense. But this advice does not generally help on stack overflow. often people struggle to provide enough detail on their issue, often they can't achieve clarity at all - what they actually need is consulting. Do you have ideas how to handle these cases on stack overflow? From my perspective these attract most of hostile individuals on the platform. 2)What is missed in an article and this video is responder's perspective - why do they answer questions and why do they loose patience. I believe a lot of active people (who consider their ratings as some kind of reward) on stack overflow prefer to give more short correct answers, rather than handle each individual's problem until complete clarity is achieved. The problem is that rating system does not reward this kind of effort. Would be great to have another round on this topic :)

[@mokhosh]

I find this to be a big problem of mine. I get politeness but I'm more on the so called clear side of the spectrum (thanks for being polite about us :))). It was nice to listen to your thoughts. Maybe if I hear more about this something would change in me.

[@mokhosh]

Thank you for the explanation, but when I said "hear more" I didn't mean I don't understand the concept. It's more like I need to be reminded so I can debug my thought processes in such situations and change the behavior accordingly.

[@mstafadev6729]

mute the sound and watch 0:38 :)

[@bobbyg603]

Excellent topic and explanation mpj, well done!

[@leonsponzoni]

Hello, MPJm and F^3 community. Even tcp protocol says "hello", and handshakes. Also, bit torrent asks people for dinners. I guess the problem is that there are 2 approaches: 1. short message that can be decoded by googling each construction. (is easier to write) 2. long message that has noisy comments and you can read without jumping around. (can be easier to read) I agree with you, that perfect documentation is hard. So many times, S.O. has a closed discussion on a ambiguous message and turns that into reference. But then you are trying to compose something into that and the combination problem case is not clear (neither falls at same place). Also, if you are at S.O. the neutral documentation already failed you (and your pivotal understanding attempt). 1, also suggests dry use of words, and that makes it easier for clever and incomplete messages that make sense only if you understand the concept already, like : "If you don't understand recursion read this line again." (above is a recursion example) Sorry for the long comment.Thanks for reading.

[@afrizalmahendra656]

what is decorator in javascript?

[@psychic8872]

One of the points mentioned is think about your audience. And of course everytime you write or speak you have to do that. But if you decide that your audience is a small group of experts and you mention that, you are not necessarily impolite right? Unless your very decision to exclude people from a conversation is impolite.

[@secretwpn]

would be cool to use machine learning to help to "render" some documentation source to consumers based on what target audience group they belong to

[@JonathanCGroberg]

About the tensor flow thing, if you try to reach diverse types of groups you wont be able to specifically address all of your audience. What you would need is two separate resources, like an intro to tensor flow, and then professional docs. The key is to specialize and address certain targets groups, not everyone at once, which can be applied to alot of things.

[@flintsteel7]

Great talk, I think you're absolutely right.

[@mankindbg]

You're absolutely right, brother !

[@TheOlian04]

IMO it's really sad that we need to have this conversation :/ It's like we're trying to explain to a child that hitting another child will hurt them and that they shouldn't do that :( Learning to speak nicely and being polite to ppl you don't know shouldn't have to be taught to adults.

[@funfunfunction]

Kind of. While this video is partially basic, we kind of only teach kids to be nice and polite, we don't really teach them what politeness is on a fundamental level, and why we need to do it.

[@TheSurfingCat]

It's hard to teach a child something you don't know already yourself. One could point at a number of factors that have led to the erosion of manners, politeness and effective communication in modern society, but ultimately the responsibility of developing these skills lies with the individual. I try to teach my son the value of politeness, not judging people and looking for common ground on which to communicate. I see these skills as being essential for humanity's continued survival, not just a means for getting tech help on the internet. One very important thing to remember, in all interactions, not just on Stack Overflow, is that happy people don't make toxic comments. Give them your sympathy and understanding.

[@funfunfunction]

That last point is an amazing one. 💕

[@AngusMcIntyre]

At the risk of being impolite, this is rather condescending to anyone who derived value from this video. 'You came here to learn and you learnt something? Its really sad that you didn't know this.' You put a bad taste in my mouth man. Why would you do that to me? :(

[@TheAxeForgetsTheTreeRemembers]

It sounds like you applied the slightlySlowerSpeaking function on yourself :D

[@funfunfunction]

Yeah, hangover + unscripted episode

[@scSmash3r]

Learning 'General Semantics' could help with communication improvement :)

[@punio4]

Just came back from the WeAreDevs conference. Joel Spolsky had a talk on this exact topic. Not sure I agree with most of it. Especially when he mentioned (paraphrased): "We have rules for a reason, and we can't be assed to explain the need for and the purpose of the rules to everyone."

[@smorebytes]

Gosh, that paraphrase really reminds me of the experiment with the monkeys & the ladder: kzbin.info/www/bejne/r16zp3WlbJqDetE

[@softwaretechnologyengineering]

I don't think people believe that removing civility will improve the clarity of what they are saying. Instead, removing civility is just a natural consequence of being a very poor communicator. Therefore, a lack of civility demonstrates that a poor communicator has reached the limit of their ability to communicate effectively.

[@DR---]

People think it's polite to lie and keep secrets. And I think calling that being polite is an insult to my intelligence.

[@AshKetchumX2]

>Saying "target" in 2018 Ok grandpa. I'll be over by the cool kids talking about "tarjets"

[@JonathanCGroberg]

Still going to have to agree with the commenter, clarity is blunt and bluntness is usually not very nice.

[@Iloerk]

9:19 This is so true

[@carmel3532]

For Americans at least I can put in a plug for an actual etiquette podcast, Awesome Etiquette. They answer questions on topics ranging from weddings to "how do I break into a discussion of a problem I might be able to solve that I overheard in an open office through my (admittedly inferior) headphones?" . They try to view solutions through a lens of "respect, honesty, and consideration" which can be very refreshing to hear. YMMV per culture but I thought I'd throw it out there anyway. emilypost.com/awesome-etiquette-podcast/

[@mokhosh]

On a second thought (now more about stackoverflow and less about the general idea), I think we can't decide what results in a great and useful website like stackoverflow and what doesn't until we do something like an ab test. Maybe this brutality is exactly what makes stackoverflow a great useful resource that enables lots and lots of people to find solutions to very specific problems without wasting time. Something on the lines of you have to break some eggs to make an omelet.

[@continental_drift]

Interestingly I've been a member of Stack Overflow for 6years and 9 months and never asked a question but I always find an answer. Perhaps all of the questions have been asked ;-) Some correspondents are very rude though, all puffed up with their self importance. I am a member of forums.whirlpool.net.au/ , if you are not polite there you will get banned. Having to be polite forces you think about what you are attempting to say with a little clarity. one thing for sure is that the snark level goes down. (mostly)

[@ThiagoRamosal]

It's just me or MPJ seems tired? Great message btw.

[@jlouzado]

Good Lord this is so necessary for my life... If anyone has a messaging framework that translates to various target demographics please please let me know. 😅🙈

[@papercutsyn]

Great video, but I think especially for stackoverflow the people behind the hostile comments/replies, from point of view, don't like that kind of messages brought to them via their communication skills. On the other hand you have developers who are maybe frustrated and go to SOF to find an answer and see something what they perceive as very simple. They project their frustration in their communication to others. Maybe in the exact tone that their manager was speaking to them. Not an apology for the behaviour, but something to think about.

[@caerphoto]

I agree completely. I think a lot of programmers forget (or never realise in the first place) that people just aren't machines, no matter how much the programmer might wish otherwise. Humans are social, emotional, and irrational, and to pretend that they're not, that these things are just trivial concerns that we just need to "overcome" somehow, is naive, wishful thinking at best, verging on sociopathic at worst. It honestly amazes me how many software developers are so user hostile.

[@AngusMcIntyre]

The users started it by being software-hostile ;)

[@caerphoto]

Nah, users are generally software-indifferent. They don't care about it. People generally just want to get things done with minimum effort, and using software is no different.

[@Gashdal]

The problem is that a lot of developers are socially stunted and don't really know how to communicate with other humans. Their wishful thinking is that they can just skip all that and talk to people the same way they talk to computers.

[@BonesTheRabbit]

Or maybe we don't want to assist folks who effectively insult us and our associates. Seriously, though. You're sitting here claiming that a lot of developers are essentially low-functioning autists, and you think this is conducive to feeling welcomed and accepted by them? Why would anyone in their right mind want to be amicable towards an individual like yourself, given this social context?

[@robertm647]

Very well put.

[@נריהגליק]

Excellent episode

[@AngusMcIntyre]

The problem SO has is that they are asking volunteers to not only share their hard won knowledge, but also to change their communication style. That's a lot of asking. Mr Torvalds has set a terrible precedent. My biggest question is, how does this interact with your 'Interpret Generously' video? Do I have to add civility and interpret generously in every interaction? If I have to take responsibility for every side of a discussion then it really isn't worth my time. >10k rep and I've hardly used SO since they released this statement. Its not out of spite, I just have no motivation to participate any more.

[@BonesTheRabbit]

This was my thought as well. Maybe the issue isn't primarily with the people dedicating their time and effort toward actively assisting others? Maybe we shouldn't assume that the folks who contribute meaningfully to a cooperative community are the ones who are socially inept? Maybe the problem is the people who, despite the free support of others, feel victimized by rather basic social conventions (such as putting some effort in your writing, trying things for yourself, or seeing if a question has already been asked), and demonstrate a level of entitlement regarding the altruism of their peers. Not to mention how many of these people appear be the type to castigate the entire community from which they are seeking support. Calling us toxic, privileged, exclusionary, devoid of empathy, etc. Why would I want to help someone who thinks I'm a villain? "Not worth my time" seems like the apt return sentiment.

[@gazzwi86]

I can think of some politicians that could do with watching this

[@ivanhoe011]

People tend to get "less polite" (to put it mildly) when emotions get high, and that happens when discussing things that they're passionate about. And programmers happen to be passionate about coding. So IMHO people are rude not because they treat others like machines, but because we, ourselves, are not machines but only humans, with all the flows that come in the package. It's nothing unique to developers, try discussing politics with someone passionate about it, or sports, or pretty much anything that people are really into. Go to any hardcore fan forum, and ask some lame newbie question that people keep asking all the time, and see the reaction. I'm not saying that it can't be improved, it can, but we should have realistic expectations, it's not worse in IT than in any other homogeneous group of people...

[@leonsponzoni]

I like how you put it. It remembers me that lawyers become judges through contests at my country. I've IT friends that work assisting them and they tell stories about these expert judges losing their calm and acting toxic. Also had the experience at online gaming communities, soccer club supporters and maybe at university. Except in university it was my imposter syndrome saying "That is a stupid question to ask to a super scholar". Research first. Ask later. Which is also part of the philosophy that may make SO work disfunctionally as it does. Opposed to say Quora where questioning first feels ok.

[@aqua123670]

Wrong. Having passion is not an excuse for not being able to restrain yourself. It's called emotionally immature. And yes IT industry is full of people with lack of empathy.

[@ivanhoe011]

I think you're mixing the empathy and politeness. Also if you had read what I wrote without being emotional and upset about the subject, you'd probably notice that I never said it's an excuse or defended any such behaviour. And you wouldn't start the reply with very confrontational "Wrong.". But I guess you're just the part of IT industry too?

[@BonesTheRabbit]

"The IT industry is full of sociopaths! Now, treat me with respect and civility." Maybe sentiments like this are partly to blame. Seriously, though. It's exhausting to be repeatedly told that I'm toxic, devoid of empathy, mean, immature, etc. by people I've never had any interaction with, solely because of the field of interest in which I orient myself, and then have the same people levying these accusations demand my respect and acceptance. I personally find it insufferable when people act very socially aggressive, and then *argue* that others ought to treat them well, rather than persuading such a response through mutual civility and kindness. That sort of obnoxious entitlement is perhaps the quickest way to dissuade me (and others) from offering assistance or a welcoming attitude.

[@Finicky9]

Yeah politeness is important . . . I am closing this topic now as the question has been answered

[@funfunfunction]

Well played, sir.

[@mdocevski]

Duplicate, locked blocked and f*ed. -But wait it's not the same as the linkes question...

[@hayderrp]

That's not true, i have seem some post where they locked even if the person is asking for more details

[@snø_music0]

I used stack overflow once then someone literally got so mad that I wasnt clear enough in my post and it made me cry and I never used it again xd

[@alejandrogiussi6369]

Couldn't agree more.

[@__gustavonovaes]

6:47

[@philetaerus]

Great episode. The comments about gauging your audience reminded me that MPJ has a background in drama. You may be interested in an interesting episode of Arrested Devops I heard recently, about "theater geeks" who transitioned into tech. www.arresteddevops.com/theatre-nerds

[@benfurstenwerth]

As far as documentation goes...at least give the path to the file that is in question...ahem...Apache Cordova plugins.... Oh wait... standards of paths are non-existent

[@VictorMongi]

Sometimes you look like User at Veritasium KZbin Channel....

[@EmanueleMicciulla]

overpackaging is polluting our planet

[@sweeball]

Thanks mpj. I always learn something new and something worth putting into practice from your shows.

[@lg2389]

This just means no one is truly intelligent 😉

[@gilberttorchon1280]

Do you really drink this potion!??? if yes , how come you are still alive??

[@MarlyssonSilva]

Best introduction ever :D ... As well as content.. Always amazing..

[@baz_sh]

Think before you speak.

[@funfunfunction]

No, that's not what we're saying here. We're saying identify and understand your target audience before speaking.

[@talk2MeGooseman]

Thanks for the great message and totally agree, also I heard a dog around kzbin.info/www/bejne/j4rdpWpnpJd8rLMm43s :D

[@Neppord]

Awesome episode!

[@PaulWilkinsNZ]

Yes sorry, but "tar-jet" was very distracting when it's "tar-git" instead.

[@funfunfunction]

yust deal with it. :) I'll try to fix that, my non-native english shines through sometimes.

[@utoddl]

As a native (American) English speaker and programmer for 34+ years, I greatly admire your English. It's a ballzy thing to tackle: a discussion of communicating effectively and civilly in a non-native language. I came here for the functional programming insights, subscribed for the Javascript, and keep coming back because I find what you have to say worth my time. Pray continue! (But, yeah, the "tar-jet" stood out in contrast to the rest of your much-better-than-my-Swedish English. Cheers!)

[@fila8727]

Not as distracting as rude comments like yours - his English is excellent, if all that stuck with you from an almost 14-minutes long video is a mispronounced word, to the point that you had to write a comment about it, you're at least prejudiced, and you don't really deserve to be seeing this video.

[@PaulWilkinsNZ]

My main reason for posting it is due to the interesting frission that's set up between the issue of clarity and multi-language discipline.