Polytheism, Superstition, and Anti-Theism

People have an idea of what superstition means. Pagans, though, have been discussing this for a very long time.
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Portraits of Theophrastus: www.eudaemonis...
Theophrastus: plato.stanford...
Podcast from Of Axe and Plough on Sacrifice and Worship: anchor.fm/of-a...
Suris and I discuss Anti-Theism with Nicholas Soutter: • Hammered out! Ft. Nich...

[@AliakaiGaming]

One of the biggest pet peeves I have about the monotheistic Abrahamic triad and one of the biggest reasons I left it is that fear of God you talk about. Polytheistic folks tend to be a lot more loving in their engagement, wanting to praise the Gods because of that love rather than out of compulsion/fear the way hymns are sung in church. I think that God-fear is then channeled into hateful actions against groups the believers don't understand, and this is part of how fundamentalism comes about. It's entirely a theory, but one I think holds some weight given how common projection is as a tactic to deal with cognitive dissonance.

[@PurpleRhymesWithOrange]

Based on my own life experiences going from Catholic to Christian to Pagan and eventually to Atheist I would agree with what you say here and support your theory.

[@Kawamura2]

I most certainly think you're on the right track with your hypothesis. I've held a similar hypothesis for a while myself. I started as Christian, later moved into Polytheism, and my beliefs kept evolving until I became an Atheist. When I was Polytheist, for the first time I felt free from superstition. Yes, i believed some "interesting" things, but I never feared Aphrodite or Athena, or Freyja for that matter (i was somewhat eclectic in my beliefs for a while). It still took me ages to start doing away with the fear of hellfire, and sometimes I still, after 20 years, have times where I feel that fear. But, for the most part, on a day to day basis, I am over it. Fear and superstition is why I left Christianity in the first place. Being bi-polar, Christianity did nothing but fuel my fears and made me paranoid of making a mistake and paying for it forever. While I never felt the presence of God or "The holy spook", the idea of hell, and the countless ways of going there kept me in it for years. In the beginning when I was first realizing I was an Atheist, I was anti-theist where the Abrahamic religions were concerned(Not as much with modern Judaism though.). Now, while I'm not anti-Theist anymore, I am anti-fundamentalist and anti-superstition.

[@starshade7826]

I am under the impression this is more pronounced in the anglo-sphere because the definition of "fear" shifted over time, but people engage in KJV bibliolatry.

[@doktordanomite9105]

While its better in paganism all trees bear bad fruit and some of this can be found in some pagan circles we should stay vigilant against such things.

[@SrValeriolete]

As a Christian I never understood fear of God to have the same meaning of being afraid of God. I allways thought It was just a different and old way to use the word that meant something like respect, reverance and awe. I felt God mercy so strongly I couldn't ever be afraid of him, that's why I was sure that eternal hell idea had to be wrong.

[@GeneticallyModifiedSkeptic]

Damn I love this video. I feel you characterized the ideas of anti-theists well, and you already know that your points here explain why I don’t care for the term like I used to. Great work, man.

[@somebodysvideos7876]

I watch your channel too. Surprised to see you here.

[@000Dragon50000]

Hecate can hella come into my house if she wants tho, that hypothetical superstitious dude is super rude. It's a goddess, dude, and a magic goddess too (Among other useful things like crossroads)! If she's in your bloody house, invite her to stay for tea! Sheesh, basic courtesy, people :p

[@OceanKeltoi]

I love this comment.

[@WildMen4444]

I think what was trying to be conveyed was not disrespect towards Hekate but rather a fear of being cursed (Hekate being a Goddess invoked in curses)

[@sorayatorchic]

All of those little superstitions can totally be helpful in a folk magical practice, but the way the man is describing it, it’s taken over his life. However lots of witches and pagans allow ritual to seep into their everyday life and everyday activities, and sometimes it can totally be beneficial and even help one complete tasks such as saying a little chant while washing the dishes. I definitely like the way you described it.

[@ChaoticNeutralGoth]

As an ex Christian myself, I wholeheartedly agree that fear of judgement and punishment is something you continue to carry with you. Even after years and years of being polytheist and experiencing true love and bliss from my religion I still find myself troubled by thoughts and beliefs I was surrounded by when I was child. Things like that scar for life

[@crystalfoxjune1393]

I definitely agree I have called my self anti-theist in the past but I do not have a problem with religion but the harm that religion can bring along with it. So I definitely like the way you split that up and will definitely be trying to use that in the future!

[@seraphina985]

True enough, generally when I end up butting heads with the religious it's because I'm humanist and thus very strongly opposed to authoritarianism and bigotry both of which some religious people like to use their religion to attempt to justify at which point we have a problem because that is using religion to justify hurting people and that is something that demands taking a stand.

[@adamb3455]

Great explanation! You can be religious and totally non-superstitious in traditional terms, or atheist and completely superstitious...

[@viatheheathen9087]

Awwww now that you have patrons I can't be first anymore

[@mattiasthornkvist7141]

This issue is exactly what the Hellenes and Romans had with Christians. Tacitus, Suetonius, Lukan, Celcus, Plinius the younger and more all report on the anger at this new type of godly worship that took control over men in a bad way and caused societal friction. Plutarch especially describes it well in his 'On Superstition' how bad gods who were petty minded, vain, selfish and blood thirsty should be evaded. It´s not just the monotheist "Self programmed" 'faiths', but any belief that results in misery or bloodshed. As such the difference between a Baalic or Druidic sacrifice or a 'martyred' Christian is null. This is a fair and sadly forgotten point imho.

[@stairwayunicorn4861]

ok, now i want to know what “Garlic of the crossroads” is

[@OceanKeltoi]

Dude, me too.

[@carole5648]

I think it's just garlic. He mentioned fearing hekate, and she is the guardian of crossroads and garlic is one of her associations.

[@sonofzeus-yg7yz]

Hekate is the greek titan goddess of the crossroads, of the dead, of magic and of the moon, other names you may know her as, the tripple moon Goddess, the maiden, mother and crone. Garlic is used as one of her main offerings followers give her, usually on crossroads.

[@danielkover7157]

It was this really good, really popular Italian joint, just outside of Rome. Mwah! Al denteus! 😛

[@Fawnarix]

I learned something about Theophrastus I didn't know before. Thanks!

[@trygoriancerberus7550]

From telltale to ocean keltoi. Nice. My sunday is 🔥

[@Pagyptsian]

I am just so excited that you are talking about topics like this! You're articulating a lot of the questions I've had that I rarely hear spoken of in other pagan spaces.

[@TotallyACat]

This was exactly what I needed to hear today. Thanks Ocean!

[@thenecroticfiend1692]

I genuinely love your videos and that’s all I wanted to saw lol ❤️

[@TheKitsuneCavalier]

Great points! Thank you very much for sharing.

[@greywolfwalking6359]

Thanks for a good explanation of what is going on in my life presently!! Once again, you " Nailed it "!! 👍🧙‍♂️🐺!!

[@TitanUranusOfficial]

I'm an Atheist, and trying to decide if I'm anti-theist as well (my instinct is yes, but I'm still trying to stay open). I also have OCD. It's possible for *anything* to become a ritual for me, from hand-washing (not fear of germs - just a need to wash hands) to tapping (not knocking on wood, but a lot of people assume I'm doing that.). I have coping mechanisms, and know what to do when I can feel anxiety coming on over *not* ritualizing. Some things I've just given up on - I'm either going to check 3 times to make sure a door is locked, or feel some anxiety. It's easier to check. I suspect that in a time when such things weren't understood, it was easier to give in to a "gods of the gaps" mentality. Why would I sprinkle myself with sea-water? To purify and appease "gods" - because the sense of relief from anxiety *can* feel amazing, and I imagine that to a relatively unsophisticated person it would feel as though a supernatural entity had taken notice and approved. I am in no way superstitious. But then, I'm informed enough to know that my condition is primarily genetic, and have some idea of what is actually happening in my brain, concepts outside the knowledge-base of the ancient Greeks. My point is - I don't believe that the gods came first, but that the rituals did, and the gods were the explanation given. I'm curious about your take on this, as I see the progression as "I feel a need to do this. The gods like it. You should do it too. You *MUST* do it."

[@setag54321]

...." I'm informed enough to know that my condition is primarily genetic".... (This info may enlighten you?) This (Genetic-Scapegoat) is the typical response given by Western Medicine when they don't know what is causing a particular illness/syndrome/disease or when they want to cover-up the damage they themselves have caused by their own neuro-toxic drugs. There's a reason why the FDA/CDC/HHS/ACIP/NVPO/etc. ignore their own *Whistleblowers* when they expose scientific fraud/govt corruption. There's a reason why the FDA intentionally violates the Scientific Method routinely when testing Vaccines. There's a reason why a real benign inert placebo is NOT used during Clinical Trials when testing for Safety of the Vaccine(s). There's a reason why a Neuro-Toxin is chosen instead of a Benign-Inert Placebo within these experiments, so essentially one neuro-toxin is tested against another neuro-toxin to determine safety?!? There's a reason the FDA/CDC/HHS intentionally obfuscate/destroy datasets (scientific findings) from their own study, which demonstrate Vaccines do indeed cause Autism (& the neurological disorders associated within a Spectrum diagnosis). The reason is, THEY don't care about Children or Humanity and if they admitted what crimes & scientific violations they've intentionally made, would result in at least a $2.5 TRILLION DOLLAR obligation/liability to the US GOVT, because now they will have to Help take care of all these 1,000,000+ damaged children they are responsible for. Injecting Neuro-toxins into the body will cause Neuro-Logical Disorders....this should be Common Sense to anyone & if they don't get this....have them READ the sentence until they do. Let alone, there are toxic chemicals within ALL vaccines that help these toxic compounds pass the (BBB) Blood Brain Barrier, just like what is found in the Exp. Gene Therapy Shots today. We've ALL been lied to about a myriad of Science Based subjects....Vaccines are just the tip of this proverbial iceberg of Corruption/Pseudo-Science that has been ongoing for well over 125+yrs. 1,000's of Children have reversed their Autism Diagnosis and are no longer on the Spectrum, with ATEC Scores in the single digits (considered neurotypical). These 1,000's are IGNORED by the Greedy Psychopaths/the Brainwashed-Indoctrinated/the Govt Alphabet Soup Shill Regulators=BigPharma/Main Stream Medicine/Autism NonProfits/etc.. There's a REASON ALL these healed & healthy Kids & Young Adults are being IGNORED...be assured! (No different than how Ivermectin & Hydroxychloroquine were ignored, doesn't fit their Profit Narrative.) *Autism is caused by Environmental Triggers (Toxins)....no Neuro-Toxins = no Autism.* It's that simple & thus this is why it is ignored. (Science already knows some prescription drugs given during pregnancy cause Autism in the fetus, again Neuro-toxins are very bad, hence why Dr's do not recommend pregnant women take these toxic prescription drugs while pregnant or before they plan on getting pregnant...THEY ALL know.) ..."Autism is a complex disease caused by the interaction of multiple genes and environmental influences. As a result, scientists' previous attempts to locate a genetic risk factor have proved inconclusive. No researchers have been able to pinpoint a predisposing gene and then duplicate their efforts -- a key piece of proof required for scientific validity.".... www.sciencedaily dot com/releases/2005/05/050504224433.htm All Autism Gene related hypothesis violate Koch's Postulate & Hills Criteria, which means they are ALL incorrect guesses. Hope this helps or maybe gives you another perspective on what has been going on within science, western medicine & our corrupt govt regulators/academia/non-profits.

[@RazeAVillage]

Can't wait to see your stream.

[@JohnnyDrivebye]

I agree. Well said. As someone who uses the label anti- theist I have always had a problem with the way it is used in the sophistry of semantics. Theists that I have had conversations with want to use it as a personal thing as an anti- theist is anti- "the person" theist. It gets to be hard to convince especially christians who have a word anti- christ. This may be the problem with it. I'm not someone who is set on using any particular label and believe my actions and demeanor should allow others to label me and not their interpritation of a label as my definition. Tall order to ask people to change their label but I for one think it might be a good idea. Cheers!

[@PurpleRhymesWithOrange]

This is why I have avoided the label of anti-theist. I honestly do not care what anyone believes in. I only care when their beliefs influence them into actions which harm those who do not share their beliefs.

[@trevorhanson6295]

"I'm convinced that technology just doesn't work with Pagans" Lol..... Man, hitting the nail on the head. Lol..... Thank you for this video. This is a particular topic I don't think I really have heard anybody else talk about and coming up with a definition that's based on actual historical research will certainly help bring value to my conversations moving forward on this topic. Until I come up with something better, I think I'm going to be using your definition to superstition moving forward. Thank you.

[@Greyheart67]

Thank you for this video, it does an awesome job for understanding of superstition in religions (mainstream and pagan) 😍😊🙂

[@gregslingland3576]

That picture given at the beginning by Theophrastus almost sounds like a man afflicted with OCD.

[@jujunew6003]

Brilliantly well put!

[@calvinhobbes3708]

I’m kind of actually curious on how you came to your conclusions. I’m new to your channel, so is there a video explaining how?

[@OceanKeltoi]

It's possible that I'll start going in that direction. There has been a lot of curiosity about that.

[@sammi901]

I'd also be interested in hearing about it. I tried learning about asatru after I left the JW cult, but the group in my area started sounding a bit too alt-rightish so I noped out before giving it a fair shot. It's be nice to hear from someone who isn't racist on how they came to this.

[@weirdandproudofit1]

I love the structure of your videos. And that's a very good way of looking at superstition, thank you!

[@kaik7534]

This was a really cool video! It was super informative, and I can’t wait to see future videos you make! (also, this is the second time today I’ve seen someone reference that source about superstition,,, I think the gods are trying to tell me something akdcjdjdj)

[@barbarianandy]

I understand this video is old by now, but I feel like the glossing over of someone saying their issue is with the God belief with "well I don't agree that's their hill to die on" is misunderstanding a very very crucial discussion. Every antitheist I know specifically takes issue with religious beliefs not being rooted in reality and therefore should not be encouraged. When you accept spiritual beliefs, you open the door to denying empirical reality which leads to issues like antivaxxers. faith healers, new age "medicine" and other anti-science types, which does very real harm. Their rejection of empirical reality that vaccines are safe and save lives has just as much justification as the belief in any sort of deity, the only difference being the level of harm. Antitheists are against the normalization of spiritual thinking because spiritual thinking is prone to leading people down those roads of rejecting science in favor of the supernatural, which can and does cause harm. And I never hear any pagan address this issue other than just ignoring it and brushing it off as if it's not even an issue. I have no issue with the rituals being used for one's own comfort, but I do take issue with accepting the existence of the supernatural when lives can be harmed by people accepting the spiritual over the empirical.

[@odinstrom3989]

You say fear. What about love of the gods to where it impedes on himself or others? For example he feels like he can't start getting ready for work because he just has to make an offering the absolutely correct way, and if he screws up, he restarts. Time passes. And he is late for work. Could the opposite of fear be true?

[@AnubisGray]

I have described myself as an anti-theist in the past but I would have to agree that your definition of anti-superstition is much more accurate. Thanks for making me think, and great video!

[@MichelletheJay]

Another great video!

[@OracleOriax]

Good stuff Ocean man.

[@applachianmothman8816]

I used to be a Jehovah's Witness, and I left because a) it's a cult, and b) the sheer amount of superstitious fear-mongering. Holy shit. They said God is Love but if you fuck up one (1) time you're thrown to the wolves and will die at arrmageddon. That's why I tried to be atheist for awhile, but I needed some sort of spiritual outlet, and I found myself drawn to Norse Paganism. I focus on Loki, and while I have deep respect for him, because he is a God and is unafraid to take my shit or give me a surprise cold shower, but at the same time I can also be really fucking chill with him. It's a relationship that I could never have with Jehovah. I never loved Jehovah, I do love Loki so godsdamn much.

[@Dinx45]

Oh hey I dig that opening! ;)

[@stormburn1]

What differentiates your beliefs from fandom, then? How would I distinguish one who enjoys acting as if The Lord of the Rings is real from one who acts as though the Norse Gods were real? What differentiates a prayer to Eru from one to Odin?

[@konradpanduram4576]

Another good, educational video, also technology seems always a bit biased towards us pagans. Maybe it's SUPERSTITION!

[@NieroshaiTheSable]

I do call myself an anti-theist, but I do so more in context with the Abrahamic religions and demonstrable woo. If there's a term for "anti-Abrahamics-and-harmful-bullshit," I'd like to start using that instead. Hell, I'd love to be a polytheist if I could be convinced.

[@carmensavu5122]

Same.

[@goingmonotheist783]

The concept of superstition shouldn't be a substitute for obsession. I hardly find it an excess to act exactly as you believe.. Or just don't (believe). I think the problem here is that as a polytheist who thinks religion should be based on whatever "inhances your spiritual experience", the idea of actually acting as within logical extention of what you believe isn't that much of a thing.. You just wanna act sensually to whatever keeps you spiritually entertained. So you look at someone actually acting on what they believe beyond just its entertaining implications, like an honest person, as someone who just needs to chill~ I think this is one of the most fundamental differences between paganism and monotheism, in terms of how they even view religiosity differently, and how related to truth spirituality should be.

[@kirstencorby8465]

I've been thinking about this myself these days. All these baby witches seeing hexes lurking in every corner.

[@corypowercat7277]

Well said. I personally am superstitious. I believe in landwights, the Hulder, and the Nix/Neck. (If they're even still alive) I'm not overly superstitious but I keep certain things in mind. I've encountered things as a child so it doesn't hurt to think of those practices or beings.

[@senorpoopEhead]

What did you encounter as a child? Tell us! Tell us!

[@corypowercat7277]

@@senorpoopEhead I think I saw one of the Billow Maidens before. That and something grabbed me when I was swimming as a kid.

[@senorpoopEhead]

Grabbed you or touched you,@@corypowercat7277? Where were you swimming?

[@corypowercat7277]

@@senorpoopEhead like full on grabbed. I think it was lake Stephans/Stevans. Which is odd since I'm in America and not Scandinavia.

[@senorpoopEhead]

Yikes, @@corypowercat7277!

[@jmaniak1]

I’m not superstitious but I am a little stitious.

[@jimhaverlock9784]

Beautifully stated.

[@tentative_flora2690]

I personally am anti-religious. If people wish to refer to their spiritual experiances as acts of a god or gods thats okay. But gathering arround such beliefs to create social pressure on others doesn't tend twords good. Personally I am a rather spiritual person and the spirits I have met are to some digree powerful. but I have yet to meet one that is reasonably more powerful then humankind, most spirits I meet tend to be rather equal in power and the only way I could see a "god" under my idea of a god existing would be through active cooperation of the spirits.

[@niesamowiterayson4594]

I kept skipping past this in my subsccriptions beccause I thought it said "A Poltergeist on Superstition" and I didn't understand but then I like. Acctually looked at it dhjdjhfhj

[@wojackhistoriajedi3148]

Glad I found this channel 👌

[@TheJohnnybows]

Sorry to say before I’ve even seen the rest of the video but at three minutes everything you’re pointing out about the man who is a superstitious man and his practises that he does those not the practises of the average person who is deeply involved in social media accommodations made a smile is throwing a responsive act of video comment and mentioned this an action for a reaction that creates nothing and does nothing

[@matthewsteele5229]

I used to believe that line “good people do god things and bad people do bad things, but if you want a good person to do a bad thing, you need religion.” I’ve come a long way since then. Now I find it’s not religion, but a very satanic concept of Abdication of the Will. Anyone of any faith can say “God’s will/will of the gods/it says in our book/etc...” and become a good person doing a bad thing. It always requires giving up responsibility and freedom of choice to a 3rd party that can’t be disproven or fact-checked. You could do this as easily with the God Delusion as with the Bible.

[@snorribjorn5074]

Very well said.

[@lizabethhampton4537]

I thought I needed to return to this video, since this is such a helpful perspective.

[@quad9363]

Pretty good definition of superstition, I wonder if it fits within Aristotle's idea of the Golden Mean, where any virtue carried out too far or too little becomes a vice for the person.

[@kedamafoe2240]

i just heard thousands of techno pagans screaming their ear off...we need to talk about that ... other then that i agree

[@OceanKeltoi]

Technopagans have discovered a form of witchcraft that I cannot begin to understand. May the gods bless them and their skills. Personally, I've built my own rig and have a hobby of fuckin around with my computer to play really old games that it shouldn't be able to. But For some reason, I also run into a lot of 'exceptions' when I try to do something simple. Don't know why.

[@adamsargent8879]

I recently found found you're channel. Keep up what you do I used to be Catholic but I'm asatrue know.

[@jake4d40]

This is why I like you Ocean, you are capable of nuance. You not only have nuanced conversations about your views seem to be largely the same. However, I would have to call my self Anti-theist in that i think all religion and god belief is harmful. The thing is the superstitious beliefs and practices are more harmful than others, and other practices are worse still (like anti lgbtqia+). A belief in god seems to me to be unjustified and promoting of unjustified beliefs is partly where I see that harm. So getting rid of the most harmful ideas and superstitions, religious and a-religious, is a place where we are in agreement.

[@zero132132]

When I describe myself as an anti-theist, it doesn't relate to either superstition or god belief. I think that most problems from religion come from holding that there's some centralized authority on what's right and wrong, one person that decides what does and doesn't have value. If you believe that one person disliking something makes it evil, that's a position that's easily abusable by terrible people in positions of power. You become someone that inherits the prejudices of prophets and leaders because your definition of 'right' and 'wrong' basically demands it. This isn't something that applies to all theists (or even necessarily to monotheists), and it isn't something that non-religious people are immune to, but it seems to be a central tenet of the Abrahamic faiths that a single god defines right and wrong. I don't have a convenient shorthand for the belief that this is a profoundly dangerous moral foundation.

[@OceanKeltoi]

I think we're in a lot of agreement here as far as agreeing on what you find objectionable. My issue with anti-theism is that it can be very difficult to criticize because it seems that there are so many different ideas of what it means.

[@zero132132]

@@OceanKeltoi I agree. The term should just mean an objectio to belief in gods in general. I just don't have a simple way to convey my specific objections to common religious beliefs.

[@NicholasLamarSoutter]

Enjoy very much. Will have to think about it. Yes, technology and pagans to seem at odds

[@PurpleRhymesWithOrange]

We could have a long conversation on why technology doesn't work for Pagans.

[@Avigorus]

I might just start using that ancient definition of superstition... interesting

[@borrowmusic-dm2xh]

How does one hold ritual?

[@bengreen171]

Nice idea - although I think it might get a lot of christians' backs up by making the association between their religion and superstition more overt, and so making conversation just as difficult.. .not to mention riling Stevie Wonder fans.

[@williamchristensen7354]

Well said!

[@jarapenkava959]

I'm not supersticious... But I am a little sticious

[@_pink_clovers]

I would say it's just a credulousness towards the supernatural, but that different people are moreso than others.

[@magiclydlicious21]

This is good!

[@nonewmsgs]

How does paganism differ from demonolotry

[@flarewolf]

Wow I , as an Atheist, use almost the same definition for superstition except I would replace the word "the" with any.

[@OceanKeltoi]

That might be an improvement. My wording may have been influenced by my perspective as a polytheist.

[@flarewolf]

@@OceanKeltoi I think that your definition is still valid. The phrase "the gods" could include all gods and any potential gods. I think it mostly boils down to semantics.

[@OceanKeltoi]

definitions often do 😂

[@flarewolf]

@@OceanKeltoi true

[@flarewolf]

@@OceanKeltoi although it might be better to change it a little. Instead of just "fear" to "fear and/or reverence of"

[@lukostello]

your definition of superstitious wouldn't include people who use rabbit's feet. How's this for a tentative definition: "Appealing to a unspecified or undemonstrable cause especially in situations where one lacks control and desires more of it by appealing to over sensitive agency detection mechanisms, decoupled agency, and minimally counter intuitive worlds"

[@_pink_clovers]

The problem, I think, personally, is faith, popularly defined.

[@Sammy_Chouchou]

Hey there Ocean Keltoi, I don't entirely expect a response, especially since the video is a week old at this point, but I had a few questions, if you can answer them, and if any of your viewers can answer them as well, by all means, I'd appreciate it. I'm a new fellow who admittedly hasn't gotten around to watching you, but have seen you before as I'm a watcher of Mr. Atheist. I myself am an atheist, but deep down I worship Our Lord and Saviour Jim Pickens, that aside, I was curious of your polytheistic beliefs. Do you in the literal sense believe in and worship the gods you espouse belief in, or is it something more shallow than that? What gods exactly do you believe in? I assume it's the norse gods, due to your intro, but you could believe in gods from many different pantheons for all I know. What is it exactly that made you believe in these gods, as opposed to the more traditional ones of the modern era? Most people nowadays believe in the god or gods they do, simply because of tradition and their parents pretty much forcing them, which could be the same in your case, but Thor at the very least isn't really a commonly believed god anymore.

[@Loquification]

I think I understand your position. Im unsure if im personally anti-theist and a perspective like yours is invaluable to examine my own beleifs. I tentatively take the position that my issue is not with god-beleif, but how the belief in something supernatural affects actions. Without getting too detailed; i personally hold truth/reality in high regard and beleive others should too, and acting counter to that by actions informed by the supernatural harms us as a collective by disntancing us from reality. Im also aware of my own little hypocracy that "truth" can be considered supernatural in some ways, hence my tentative and still-testing position.

[@Loquification]

Id also agree with the equivalence politics and extremists, and at least tentatively hold that all of politics is worthy of blame for the actions of extremists (not solely, but still worthy). Id also recognise that god-beleif (and politics) are likely inescapable human conditions, but should be strived against despite impossibility. Nevertheless, id love to see more of your examinations of anti-theism, that I and others like me might better dissect and test our own convictions, or abandon them should they fail.

[@MrBig913]

Ive spent a few years of my life completely dismissing any notion of the supernatural. I use to just explain it away with logic and 'science' but now I wish to believe in the gods. It's just difficult to deprogram me from my own programming.

[@A3Kr0n]

Paulogia sent me here

[@OceanKeltoi]

Welcome!

[@kimwelch4652]

There is a difference between experience and belief. Where there is experience, belief becomes irrelevant. Most people experience the existence of their car, they don’t have to believe their car exists. Superstitious people may or may not actually believe, but they are terrified of the potential of having an experience. They won’t invite Hekate in because they don’t want to experience her. A large number of Christians only pretend to believe and will run away if confronted by a real experience of their god. Unfortunately, a lot of pagans treat their gods as cultural artifacts rather than autonomous entities and have much the same reaction as Christians when their gods show up. Wu happens, but the Incantamenti Ratiocinium (a.k.a., reality blindness) is a real effect. “Humans see little and believe even less.” -Icelandic saying (Becca Tarnas)

[@Dovah21]

As a heathen myself, I never miss an opportunity for a good laugh at my own expense whenever I caution myself against superstition. I'm constantly telling myself or am being told (by whom I'm not really sure) to remain skeptical despite my faith and beliefs.

[@capitalistraven]

Much love for you Ocean but I think you're barking up the wrong tree here. It took me a long time to accept the label of "Atheist" and I'm still not sure about the label "Anti-Theist". That being said both labels describe me pretty well for the same reason; They're not literally true, but I share common belief with the vast majority of those who claim the label. Most Atheists don't believe that a God or Gods can't exist, we believe that there's no convincing evidence that they do. As you pointed out, most Anti-Theists don't have a problem with religion, but with the negative effects such as faith based truth claims and theocratic morality. Christopher Hitchens, one of the most famous people to claim the Anti-theist label, said explicitly that he had no problem with private religious practice or belief as long as it's claims were not forced on others. In this regard I'm an Anti-Theist even if I don't think God belief is explicitly the "problem". Moreover I'm not sure what problem re-labeling would solve. "anti-superstituon" would still be subject to confusion and misinterpretation in the same way "Anti-theist" or even "Atheist" are. Finally, while I know it's not your intent or your tone here, playing around with labels others choose for themselves can be very patronizing. I cringe hard every time a theist when hearing my belief says "well you're not an atheist you're agnostic!". You probably have the same reaction when someone calls you a "neo-pagan" though I'm not sure how you feel about that particular turn of phrase. Thanks again for doing what you do!

[@OceanKeltoi]

I have a lot of agreement with this. If you check the description there's a link to a discussion that Suris the Skeptic and myself have with Nick Soutter on this very issue. Anti-Theism has several meanings, and according to the one Hitches expresses, many polytheists are Anti-Theists. But I do not adopt the label because of what the word implies.

[@Henrys_Katabasis]

Disagree on the fixation on fear. Unless you're claiming that the fear one feels when faced with certain danger (e.g. when afraid because of being close to falling off a ledge) is superstitious.

[@snbalmung]

While I'll agree that religious zealotry is by far the bigger problem, I still have a problem with religion itself, even the atheistic ones like Buddhism, Jainism, Taoism, etc. In that sense, I am anti-theist. Because truth and knowledge are important to me and I think all religions, in one way or another, work to actively undermine the search for truth and knowledge. For example: if one believes in a god of thunder and lightning, they no longer have an incentive (or at least not as much of one) to try and find out what thunder and lightning actually are. Not to mention it says nothing about which god is actually responsible. Is it Zeus, Thor, Set, Marduk, Raijin, Xolotl...? Is there any good reason to choose any one of them over the others? They can't all be the same entity since the myths are clearly contradictory. So, the way I see it, if we pick one, we take a step away from truth and towards ignorance. Then, when one's religious view is challenged, the tendency is often to get defensive and double down, to do every ritual they can think of to feed their confirmation bias. The path to knowledge HAS to begin with the words "I don't know". Superstition - all of it, not just the narrower definition you give in this video - is about pretending to know things you can't actually know. That's why all religions can lead to zealotry. That's why I have a problem with all unjustifiable beliefs, no matter how innocuous they might seem.

[@QazwerDave]

My anti-theism is indeed absolutely about the believes of one person affecting others !! If you don't affect others, you can do whatever you like. DON'T BRING YOUR FAITH INTO RELIGION !! This is, however, where people can't seem help themselves !!

[@DonEskil]

Great video! I’ve always been an atheist but never an anti-theist and consider it, while not necessarily wrong, at least rather strange to be totally against religion. I of course understand the arguments that some religions in some ways can be harmful, and while I find that somewhat valid, I personally have no great interest in changing the religious belief of people. From my perspective, even though I believe that religious people are incorrect in their belief, I must acknowledge that I might be wrong as well. If other people are happy with their belief and don’t hurt or encourage to hurt anyone, then I’m happy. Does this mean we shouldn’t question behavior that we find harmful? Of course we should question it, but I personally don’t think that religion equals bad behavior. I think we should question the behavior and how it is justified, and while that sometimes might be hard without questioning someone’s faith, it is that person you should focus on and not all religious people. Before anyone write that I’m not an atheist but an agnostic, I’m both, one does not exclude the other. Just as I think it is possible to be religious at the same time as being an agnostic.

[@alicev5496]

One thing about the concept of superstition is how christian it has been for the last centuries. For a university paper I read through a massive amount of articles written by christian missionaries discussing religion in China and Mongolia. What was the common theme? These "pagan" (as they applied the term) peoples were superstitious. Christianity was the one true rational and logical religion, everything else was irrational superstition invented by the devil to hoodwink people. Superstition was, essentially, an instrument in the christian toolbox to delegitimise any other spirituality (and other forms of christianity, just look at how some protestants traditionally talked about the catholic church.) This leads to the rather ironic situation where a lot of anti-theists sound exactly like christian missionaries. Personally I think the well has been poisoned on the word superstition. I think there is a useful distinction to be made in the vein of what you make in this video. But it's been used for much too long as a way to disparage other ways of looking at the world, no matter how benign or harmful.

[@ColpoRosso]

The definition you give here doesn't make much sense to me. Even religions, cults, skepticism could "impede on the life, liberty or well-being of yourself or others", but that doesn't define them, it just give them a connotation

[@james192599]

This is what i have always maintained. Anti-religion does not necesarily mean you cannot be spirtual or believe in diety. Polytheism is inherently spiritual as it is mainly individualistic on the gods you choose to worship. This is in contrast to abrahmics which usually is on the recieving end of atheist attacks. You'll never really see atheists attack buddhists or hindus for that reason. These religions are pluralistic

[@ThePuppyTurtle]

The problem with your framework is that all God belief, even if it doesn't currently contain superstition, is pregnant with superstition, and normalizes the premises on which the superstition of others is based. If religiosity were not culturally normalized, no one would be superstitious in the sense you're talking about, and religion wouldn't be able to do any of the harm it does. Simply by being religious, you are helping to normalize religiosity, and are enabling that harm. Your selfish choice to believe what you want to believe in place of what is evidently true is dangerous to the LGBT community, to women, and even to your fellow heathens, as much of the persecution you face is motivated by christianity, and couldn't happen if religion was denormalized.

[@Slave-of-the-most-merciful]

The problem with homosexuality is that it is considered indecent by God, he created men and women for each other, homosexuals and people in the lgbt community suffer from depression and are still pushing for more when they have their rights in many western countries, also the issue with homosexuality is the action not the thought of homosexual feelings. Loving and fearing God is natural, it may seem strange to people who aren’t religious. You love God and seek his mercy but you also fear Gods punishment, if you aren’t motivated by one the other will work and help to push you to being a better person

[@ericv7720]

Why are you assuming that there is only one god, and that LGBTQ people are depressed? Have you ever talked to one?

[@muad1916]

The Flying Spaghetti Thor

[@muad1916]

OooDddinnnnnn Ggrrrrrr

[@muad1916]

Why don´t you fight for communism instead of theological questions? If you really want to improve the world, as you always claim to, then start fighting for something really beneficial for humanity.