Poor Disabled Things

Poor Things and disability representation.
Is it good?
Theres some good there.
Is it problematic?
Theres some issues there. #poorthings
#Oscars #DisabilityRepresentation #Ableism #EmmaStone

[@felixwallace5041]

"Disability is not a punishment" 🎉 thank you for saying this out loud

[@rachelann9362]

My husband wanted to watch it, so we did a couple of nights ago. (I say ‘we’ but he started watching it and was already about 15-2p minutes into the movie when I sat down in the living room-a lot of times he’ll watch things I don’t like or can’t focus on, and vice versa. Aside from all the nudity and sex scenes that I was not adequately prepared for, I had this feeling like something more felt OFF to me. I even mentioned to him that the ending felt incredibly uncomfortable, but just didn’t have the words for it. I only just received my autism diagnosis about 2 months ago (I’m 39 in a few weeks), so I’m still digesting and coming to terms with a lot of things. This videoed a few of the comments have helped me piece together what I felt and what it was actually about. I have pretty bad alexithymia from childhood drama, so it just felt “icky” to me. The feeling strengthened when I saw the clip again with the one girl and the pet having a game in the garden with the male experiment, so I do feel like your explanation resonates with me.

[@ClaraDarko]

I relate immensely to everything you said. I got my autism diagnosis last year, at 41 years old. I've always found Lanthimos' films extremely problematic for me. I feel they are sort of "inhuman". They leave me feeling disgust for the human race and disgust for the filmmaker who decided to decipt such crude scenes. Like it's a bit vouyeuristic and doesn't really provide any kind of catharsis for the audience. His films feel exploitative to me.

[@dimimegesis]

the Oscars can take a hike

[@cecilyerker]

I’m reminded of Tropic Thunder and Robert Downey Jr’s character advising Ben Stiller to “never go full rtard”

[@jeremyandrewdavis]

Good thing she only did for the first 25% of the film!

[@its.Lora.]

Thank you for speaking up about these topics. 'Hollywood' has so much money and power to change representation/narrative but they dont bc well general society is still very much ableist and stuck in the archaic mindsets, and that makes money for Hollywood film makers bc that's what society thinks/relates to. At least in the USA.

[@Sugar3Glider]

You just accidentally the Algorithm. Congratulations

[@zenith5844]

Thank you! I kept seeing people hyping this movie and refusing to recognize its issues

[@wordzmyth]

The oscars does frequently. seem to reinforce the patriarchy by focussing on women escaping the oldest profession. They dont often reward films that visualise a world where women dont have any connection to that role. They celebrate it as 'gritty' or realistic when it is just promoting the established order.

[@dawn8293]

I haven't seen or heard of this film, but the infant brain in a grown woman's body makes me think of the video "Born Sexy Yesterday" by Pop Culture Detective. It discusses how grown women with extreme, impossible naivety are sexualized in so many films. I never thought I'd it from an ablism perspective, but it definitely fits there, too.

[@hayleyoliver3981]

How is it policing women’s bodies to ask your soon-to-be sexual partner if they’ve been tested? That’s just safe sex. If he’d had sex with other people, he would also get tested. And he’s just finished saying how he has no problem with her sexual history because her choices about her body are her own.

[@jeremyandrewdavis]

You have to look at it within context. He didn't show much of any interest in her travels other than her sexual activity. His conversations and relationship with her are all motivated by sex. Within this context, he is showing little interest in her as a partner but more her as an object for his consumption - one he is seeking to find out if she is safe to consume. They have no real meaningful conversation about anything else. Maybe this wasn't intended, but it is also a story about women's liberation written by a man, adapted by a man, and directed by a man that uses the 'born sexy yesterday trope' and focuses predominantly on her sexual nature, ignoring most other facets of her identity and agency. Again, many ways to interpret this and my reading of it certainly isn't THE reading of it, but it is one that I figured I'd offer for consideration.

[@moonbread2334]

Can you expand on how misogyny and male dominance is rooted in ableism? I've never heard that before so just curious. Loved this critique!!

[@scobeymeister1]

I'm not positive this is what he meant, but I'd venture it's the idea that women are somehow "inferior" in a disability context. There's a great deal of historical justification for keeping women in the home, used as property and currency, and not allowed to participate in society generally by asserting that women are/were things like "feeble-minded" and "hysterical". Basically denying women autonomy because they're considered less able than men to take care of themselves and have opinions worth respecting. It's the exact same sort of attitude that allows some doctors to blame literally any medical complaint a woman presents on either anxiety or period-related hormones 😓

[@user-ly3li3ex8c]

I would suppose it's because men are significantly stronger and more competent in sports/fighting than women, they have more special ability in that physical strength area while women are more overlooked in value for the ability to risk our very lives to create and nurture life with our bodies because it's more temporary.

[@jeremyandrewdavis]

In terms of the patriarchy, etc, and ableism... that's a HUGE topic. One example - Yale historial Dr. Russett argues that when white women organized for rights in the 19th century, European scientists responded with a "detailed examination of the differences between men and women that justified their differeing social roles." They argued that women were "inherently different from men.... and lagged behind men, much as primitive people lagged behind Europeans." Women were classified as less intelligent, as well as less physically strong. Canadian scientist Grant Allen argued that women were "the sex sacrificed for reproductive necessities." Sexism, racism, and even moral superiority has forever been argued as legitimate and 'right' by using a lens of ableism.

[@Boom-yu1ce]

Asking a new sex partner if they’ve been tested is not ‘policing women’s bodies’…. especially when you know they’ve been promiscuous

[@jeremyandrewdavis]

In general, you are correct. But when the only thing the guy asks about in their conversations involves sex...

[@stephaniecohn365]

Agreed!! I think the Max thing was more about safety, since he already said it’s her body and she can do as she wants. But yes, hella creepy that he liked her as an infant and groomed her with Godwin

[@stephaniecohn365]

Can you say more about how men exerting power and dominance over women is related to ableism?

[@stephaniecohn365]

I think also another important point it connects to is how young girls who have more developed bodies will often get sexualized and treated as women when they are still children!

[@jeremyandrewdavis]

The moment wouldn't have bothered me at all if there had been context of Max asking other questions and presenting interest in her outside of sex. Virtually everything he talks about with her is directly related to sex.

[@jeremyandrewdavis]

terms of the patriarchy and ableism... that's a HUGE topic. One example - Yale historial Dr. Russett argues that when white women organized for rights in the 19th century, European scientists responded with a "detailed examination of the differences between men and women that justified their differeing social roles." They argued that women were "inherently different from men.... and lagged behind men, much as primitive people lagged behind Europeans." Women were classified as less intelligent, as well as less physically strong. Canadian scientist Grant Allen argued that women were "the sex sacrificed for reproductive necessities." Sexism, racism, and even moral superiority has forever been argued as legitimate and 'right' by using a lens of ableism.

[@stephaniecohn365]

@@jeremyandrewdavis I would love to see a whole video about this! Thank you for your explanations :)

[@herahagstoz6934]

Omg I so admire and appreciate your dedication to speaking your mind on subjects that most people can’t understand because they lack the perspective and lived experience to make these connections. So much love 💕 to you and your work!

[@ClaraDarko]

I've always found Lanthimos' films extremely problematic for me. As a highly sensitive autistic woman, I feel they are sort of "inhuman". They leave me feeling disgust for the human race and disgust for the filmmaker who decided to decipt such crude scenes. Like it's a bit vouyeuristic and doesn't really provide any kind of catharsis for the audience. His films feel exploitative to me.

[@juliettespoon]

This is brilliant thank you!

[@fanime1]

I loved the movie but I appreciate hearing your point of view. I also appreciate how you highlight that there's good in the film instead of immediately bashing it. As a polyamorous, AuDHD woman, I related a lot to Bella. In some ways, I'm an adult with autonomy, but sometimes my executive dysfunction makes me feel like a child. I struggle with social cues and societal rules I don't understand like Bella did. I have a complex relationship with my father. I think the fact that the film resonated so well for me is a sign it's doing something correctly. Even with its flaws, I'd give it a 9/10. A critique I didn't think about until you mentioned it was Felicia and that could have been a quick fix. Just show her joining the group after playing. As someone who loves animals more than people, I didn't recognize how problematic the framing for that shot could be interpreted. I just assumed Felicia was like me and preferred animals. I disagree with your interpretation of the STD question but I understand where you're coming from. I think it's healthy for every adult to be having these kinds of conversations. It would have been better if Bella asked as well, but it's also possible the guy is a virgin as he seems like the type to wait for marriage. Still I'm glad to see it acknowledged in a respectful way in the film as opposed to how Mark Ruffalo's character would have asked.

[@melaniescribbles]

As an autistic woman; I already figured that there was a positive portrayal of ableism somewhere in the movie's symbolism, and it was actually quite uncomfortable to watch from my perspective. No joke; I actually tried watching that movie, and went in blind since I only saw the title mentioned on Instagram. But I already had to tap out at like 20 minutes in! It was at that scene where Bella is on the roof with Duncan. The constant sexualization of a woman with a LITERAL BABY'S BRAIN also just made my stomach turn, to a point where I had to surpress the urge to yell 'Max, she literally has the mind of a child!' at the screen. I'm just grateful that I watched that ableist and misogynist schlock for free; it sure was a waste of my time, but at least I can be happy that my money hasn't been used to fund ANOTHER ableist wankfest. All in all; should've turned back the moment that the r-slur was dropped in the movie.

[@kat4923]

Agree!

[@ZeonGenesis]

Nordic Model Now

[@user-kh7so2zv5o]

What i dislike the most about this is it seems like its a choice to be disabled because how in the movie they change their physical brains like its nothing, like its some transitional surgery

[@Baptized_in_Fire.]

Wait till bro sees who and what is going on. If you know the destination, the path is clear. Oscars? Distractions from the Truth, but it's revealing another truth.

[@andycochrane4131]

What is the purpose of suffering?

[@iampotato6210]

That's the neat part - there is no purpose!

[@gigahorse1475]

That’s a theological question. Otherwise, the question makes no sense.

[@user-kh7so2zv5o]

Suffering when it comes to survival is to let you know something is wrong and to go more easily on yourself or to seek safety but in society it's almost completely useless and keeps us from achieving

[@fuhgetabatit1051]

If this is the case, then the movie contradicted itself. In real time, Emma Stone gave her agency to them men who created this movie. SHE sexualized herself. She became the object of a lascivious interest of the men surrounding the film and viewing it. This movie was made with men in mind. Poor Things is a failed feminist attempt at a message of female empowerment. And that is why this film won awards. A movie that actually portrays women gaining agency over their lives is not a movie that will be praised because it does not pander to the desires of men.

[@fanime1]

Please watch the movie before making such statements. Bella always stood up for herself throughout the film. The end implies she's in a polyamorous relationship with not just her fiance but also her female lover who she met during her travels. Sex scenes are very hard to pull off, and you're always going to make someone uncomfortable, but the ones in this movie felt more equal to me. It didn't give me a male gaze vibe but more of a neutral, medical vibe.

[@freddychopin]

As an autistic person, I really dislike this pandering notion that ableism is the sole cause of our woes. Ableism is clearly a problem, yes, but being autistic is inherently challenging inasmuch as autism, by definition, is a disorder characterized by social deficits. If you take the most social animal in the history of four billion years of evolution and you give it social deficits, it's going to suffer for having those social deficits, no matter how nice and understanding the other social animals are. This is made abundantly clear by the extreme example of nonverbal autistic people. To say of them "There's nothing wrong with them, it's society that's wrong!" is just a condescending insult to their plight. Trying to reduce their suffering to being misunderstood by others is profoundly tone deaf--they suffer because they're incapable of communicating the things they're thinking and feeling in the way that a neurotypical human is capable of. Even the nonverbal autistic people with the most well-informed, understanding, and patient of parents and caregivers still struggle throughout their lives. And because autism is spectral, the same principle applies at all levels of impairment. If you have social deficits, it sucks, no matter what. Those limitations can certainly give you *unique advantages*, but that doesn't mean it doesn't still suck to have them. It's ultimately the combinations of our limitations and strengths that make us who we are, but to say "There's nothing to cure" as you do is to deny the harsh reality of social impairment. It's like saying that there's nothing wrong with being paraplegic--it's just a lack of access ramps that's the problem.

[@amcd85]

Ableism greatly exacerbates struggle and that is all literally anyone who discusses ableism is saying. Try listening to more ableism advocates because they are specifically fighting against the societal aspect of struggle and really never said it would not exist as a struggle if society was fixed. That's not what ableism means.

[@amcd85]

Exacerbation is the key term to understand when ableism is referenced. But to push back on disability stigma and flat out denial of legitimacy personally and societally, we have to be straight up and direct. This nuance exists, but isn't the focus when specifically challenging societal structure.

[@yarnpenguin]

This is a really good comment and I wanted to let you know that, as a fellow autistic person. I'm a firm believer that there is both a social and medical model of disability, and autism sits firmly in both. There are definitely ways that society makes my autistic life harder, through things like "movie theatres being way too loud" and "cars being way too loud" and "why does everything for cleaning and hygiene and personal care have to smell" and "perfume in general" and "neon lights" and "no we can't give you a consistent schedule and set of tasks because reasons" and "look at me when I'm talking to you!". But my social deficits are absolutely one of the things that makes autism a disability. Humans are social animals, I have social deficits, and there's no "changing society" that's really going to fix any of it except for a slight improvement to my overall happiness that could've come from teaching all children at a young age to not be cruel to people they think are "weird". But even then, I'm just going to be really bad at parties and group projects and feel exhausted after social engagements/talking to strangers and on and on. About two years ago I read something written by a non-speaking autistic person who wrote something about how their body is uncooperative. I'll never find it again, and I'm not even sure if that's the exact word he used, but that's the gist of it, and boy oh boy did it ever give me a new way to look at my own body. There are just quiet little ways in which my body is uncooperative, and that *is* because of autism. I'm clumsy. I just drop things for no reason out of nowhere on a regular basis; the number of delicate, fragile things I've broken over the years this way is incalculable. I could not be taught dance or gymnastics (and, uh, just "sports" in general, too); my body refused to move in the ways demanded. It took me ages to just be able to figure out how to jump. Sometimes I just can't make my body do manual tasks. My brain tells my hands to Do The Thing and they're just like "go eff yourself". That's not the way human bodies are supposed to work, at least not to the frequency and severity I experience and have always experienced, and there's no way this falls into an issue that society needs to fix to make it not a disability.

[@freddychopin]

​@@amcd85 you haven't even bothered to read my comment, by the sound of it. My reply is to Jeremy, who in his "Why do autistic people toe walk" video claims that with autism, there is "nothing to cure", pointing the finger at ableism as the cause of stress in autistic people. As I said in my original comment, *ableism is a problem*, but saying that there's "nothing to cure" with autism means that Jeremy thinks there's nothing wrong with having autism aside from the ableism and prejudice autistic people face. So no, when you say "that's not what ableism advocates are saying", you're wrong, and you're not paying attention. It's not just Jeremy saying this either: there's a broad sentiment that there's "nothing to cure" with autism and that society itself is the problem. And here you're condescending to me about ableism when the *first thing I said* was that ableism is a problem. You talk to me like ableism isn't something I've already had to deal with my entire life. Read more carefully before you comment.

[@freddychopin]

@@yarnpenguin thanks for the recognition. I originally posted this in reply to his toe-walk video where his exact words are "there's nothing to cure", but he only seems to see the first few comments that get posted to his videos, so I'm hoping he'll see it here.

[@Rebecca-of7fh]

as said by Robert Downey Jr. as Kirk Lazarus in Tropic Thunder - Everybody knows you never go full r-word

[@adama7774]

I havent watched it yet, but just from this video i would wager that what you are complaining about is literally the whole point of the film. As in, the depiction isn't problematic itself, it is simply depicting a problem. Edit: I have since seen it, I was right.

[@lexib671]

I have seen the whole movie and Bella's arc as the protagonist, from being a baby-brained woman (literally), taking the form of an intellectually disabled person and overcoming her disability through exposure to entrapment, possessive and oppressive men, and her own sexual maturity, which she naively sees, as pointed out by many side characters in the plot, as ways to "improve" herself. But the improvement does come with radical mind-body awareness and loss of her disability. The loss of her disability as she "progresses" into more capability is praised and frequently contrasted with her former (infant ) self, and the Bella 2.0. the film explores many other themes too. I suggest you do watch it to have context 😊