you have became the very thing you swore to destroy

[@jdubs__01]

We lost him, bois. Please press F to pay respects for our fallen comrade

[@rogue9898]

F

[@siindree]

F

[@Just_som_Ottur]

F

[@arfafakhriananta2015]

F

[@adrianomarrocchini8769]

F

[@getongab]

Becomes a CC and goes to the dark side.

[@AllAhabNoMoby]

Yep. All the rationalizations don't mean shit.

[@DotDotDotDashDashDashDotDotDot]

I wish the vision provided by CVs are similar to how spotting works on Cyclones, like they only show the marks on the map but not actual visual contact for the whole team. the reason is they can not only do damage without any real risks they can provide vision without risks as well, even DDs and Subs have risk when spotting targets, less risky for the subs though.

[@ComertCZ]

Yeah, I totally agree with that. This change alone would change the meta a lot, because there would be a looot less across the map sniping. DDs would still have their job to actually spot the enemy in real time. They would also have the additional info of grey outlines, so they could plan accordingly to the approach and keeping the distance. It would not solve the passive state of the game, but I think it would make it healthier. I believe with enough love and care, this s**tshow can still be salvaged. I don't believe it will happen, but there is always a spark of hope.

[@TheLukinha444]

On WoWs Legends is kinda like that you basically only see enemy ships if they are in your spotting range of the airplane, CVs are so much more balanced in WoWs Legends, they are not the biggest damage dealers, they are perfect to support, but for damage you not gonna make insane matches. They add midway and hakuryu on wows legends and those ships are really nerfed, midway only launch 4 torps, the planes have less life than Saipan planes, Hakuryu dont have AP bombs. If you have a console you should try WoWs Legends, is like wows but more balanced

[@kevinthechuker1721]

The problem with that is loss of vision if your DDs are dead (which happens a lot) and also no CV sniping, they’ll live a lot longer that way. That’s why i want plane spotting like how it is with radar with the 6s buffer period or only fighters can spot

[@CesarinPillinGaming]

Or provide visual range limits. aka only X ships close to the air drops can have spotting range, otherwise they only get minimap. Or make "spotter" planes consumables, only these can provide real spotitng.

[@jamescodyjones]

@@kevinthechuker1721 I don't think that is a bad thing. If your DDs die you should be at a disadvantage.

[@liirha]

The biggest advice I have, you need to learn the flak patterns so you can avoid them. Also, the heal on the torpedo drops, you should be using it earlier so you don't lose any planes on the initial drop. Assuming you are going after a ship that is alone. Additionally on the torpedo drop, the Midway takes a long time to narrow her drop angle, so you want to be aiming where you plan to drop and not turn while it is narrowing. But once it is aimed, you can turn and not lose much accuracy. Secondly, for DDs in the Midway, run the HVAR Bearcats instead of the Tiny Tims. With practice, you can fairly easily hit DDs with the HVAR rockets. They also pen 33mm so they can hurt most cruisers and BBs bow and sterns. And for DDs, don't bother with the torpedos against them, the Midway drop is so wide and so slow that you will only hit players that can't move out of the way. You want to be using rockets and the HE Dive Bombers. The final big thing for carriers, target priority. Sure, you can go farm that lone pushing Pommern for half his HP, but if a flank is collapsing and needs vision/DD interference, you may be better sending your planes there. Also, try to remember where the scary AA threats are and avoid face planting them with your planes. Wooster, Minotaur, most Russian Cruisers, have high flak counts and long range which can make their flak hard to avoid if you are trying to line up a drop. So you generally just want to avoid them. Halland is also extremely nasty, but harder to dodge as he can keep his AA off until you are well within the bubble then turn it on and start evaporating your planes.

[@miltonzinn8732]

Honestly, that was about everything I had to comment, so I’m just gonna not bother.

[@nicolamontorsi7021]

You spoke really well, giving nice suggestions! If i can add something, do NOT drop the fighter planes directly on top of a dd or any ship (sooo many cvs do it). The planes have such low hp that they get shot down in a matter of few seconds. The best spots i found are on the top of an island, more 3/4 towards your team and 1/4 to enemy. This grants them "cover" while they do their patrolling circle and the enemy gets spotted by shooting/ coming closer, without managing to kill all the fighter squad. Also remeber that it usually discourages an enemy cv to strike a teammate, by changing their attack pattern from a sub-obtpimal angle (= less damage) or just acting to be "tax" the enemy cv has to pay to get the kill/spot of your ally.

[@Anldiot69]

Interesting comment. What do you mean by learning flak patterns? Are there specific patterns for the bursts? I alway struggled with those and tried to wiggle my planes randomly and avoid flying straight lines, but is there an actually working way to do that?

[@liirha]

@@Anldiot69 Maybe I am using the wrong terminology. But there is a trick to it as they spawn at timed intervals and in counts, so you need to get a feel for when they spawn and turn, fly straight, turn before you fly into the next burst and so on until you get inside flak spawn range. I can't tell you what the timing is, I do it on 'feel' and don't have it precisely mapped out. So you need to be turning and avoiding flak on the way in, but doing so in a way that lets you still line up your drop. It is a technique you need to learn if you don't want your planes to explode and still do good damage. This gets much harder when there is multiple ships close together. As the entire sky can fill up with flak and you just can't dodge them all.

[@MrMrtommy]

@@Anldiot69 the ai flak usually tries to predict your flight pattern. So what you do to avoid it is change course until youre past the flak bubble.

[@jgcrypto5485]

Playing them all made me better at all classes. The point PQ raises in this video is super important for better perspective and attitude on this game and adapting to the changes and additions as they come because they will.

[@richardcobb1555]

Sure. I can see how knowing how to play a CV can make my AA fire more effective. (sarc)

[@silwarhd]

Yes

[@Tearnofear]

"as they come because they will" right, now imagine noone would play them (i know that's a Illusion, but still). They had to balance them for Years (!) but what they mostly did is Balance so People like to play them and not to make them fit the Game. @richard cobb oh how i would love to fly my Shells to the target while permanently correcting the direction. Not to mention the Enemies i could randomly spot while they try to reposition

[@richardcobb1555]

@@Tearnofear I have been saying that for months and months. Don't blame WG for the CVs and subs. The blame belongs on the people who play them.

[@fukinyouup]

@@richardcobb1555 i've never seen a video game where people are delusional enough to claim a class is op and blame the players for playing them instead of the developers for not nerfing them lmao are we going to start complaining now that people are wrong for playing smaland/petropavlovsk/napoli in clan battles?

[@atomimaichi]

One of the jobs of a CV is to never let the focus target go dark. Quite often, if you're being focused, you survive on low HP and can heal. With a good carrier though, they won't let you go dark, and the enemies will be able to finish you.

[@kr4ftt]

I always drop a fighter away from the aa blast range to scout or to prevent a dd top cap without being harassed at the start of the match, good advice

[@CiaranMaxwell]

You either die a hero, or live long enough to become a villian. Jokes aside, this is a good idea, PQ. Raging Canadian, as much as he hates carriers and think they make the game worse, recommends all newbies play carriers in order to learn how to deal with them. "What tactic makes you always whiff your shots? Next time you face a carrier, do that."

[@billwalker9509]

It might be a good idea to play against one (wait, did I just say that?) but newbies regularly are in 2 CV games.

[@Ett.Gammalt.Bergtroll]

The problem is that there's no way to "deal" with the biggest issue of CVs: the fact that one being present in the game utterly nullifies any kind of stealth and tactical gameplay because they will just spot everyone. It is not the bombs and sheit dropped by the CVs that ruin the game, it is the omnipresent spotting.

[@MBouku]

Laughs in Malta AP Bombs

[@therelaxedgamer8095]

That was what carriers were built for irl so yeah there whole job is a spotting and attacking support roll however there meant to be protected in a strike group the other ships give themselves up as a battleships a lot cheaper than a 40 billion dollar carrier so from a realism stand point the CV is doing what it was made for keep in mind though carrier in irl has much thicker armour and are tanks in the sea they are paper thin in game for balancing the US line especially

[@ekscalybur]

@@therelaxedgamer8095 This is an arcade shooty game, who the F cares what they were built to do IRL? Are any of these carriers required to turn into the wind to launch planes? They do damage to people without risking their own health. They are immune to fires. They have auto-magical ASW. They simply CAN'T detonate. Its the last 3 on top of the first one that makes this a ridiculous part of the game. Remove the last 3 and they are fine.

[@Ricardowieringa]

​@@ekscalyburdoes it really matter if a cv can't detonate if most battleships can one shot them and the aimbot anti submarine really only ever comes into play if a submarine is cv sniping

[@nyiminhtun9418]

​@ekscalybur So As long as your battleships can out gun everything and one shot everything, you won't care about everything else?

[@blusafe1]

-No need to guide the planes post-attack. Spam F. Save planes, save time. -Focus on single target okay, but don't ignore flank support (left side this game) -Use islands as approach cover -use consumables aggressively. Your heal is an "invul potion," not necessarily a "heal" -Consider HVAR and/or stock torps for Midway. More flexible but less damage. -Bombs are your standard anti-DD weapon. Use them. -Adjust your throttle coming in. Consider slowing to tighten your aim, especially against DD. -Save some boost for the attack run. -Turn on enemy AA on mini-map to plan your movements and fighters. -Don't use fighters on top of strong AA since they will be wasted.

[@berkdikmen95]

PQ: Becoming a CC will not change how I view the game Also PQ: Starts playing CV's

[@AllAhabNoMoby]

Exactly.

[@DeathsWeepingAngel]

Exactly what I thought when I saw this. Looks like I'm done watching this sellout's vids.

[@ajax9528]

boo fucking hoo

[@syedushherahmad311]

Yes inquisitor. This man right here. Claims to be a loyalist but turned traitor

[@schlumpfii9257]

you can maneuver your squadron at all times, even while in the drop animation (the time your camera is not on the remaining planes of squadron and the invulnerability is active ). So the whole thing of " ah after striking you the planes will end up on top of someone else to increase losses" is not true because you can just get your planes outa there by pressing A or D. Useful tip to be better at cv`s is get yourself a minimap mod that shows aa ranges on the minimap.

[@thefancyapple1823]

At the very least he didn't become a sub main.... Yet.

[@richardcobb1555]

I was about to type "Yet" then scrolled down, lol

[@austin8orv2]

so, i played carrier for a while, so something i do knowing what ships and what AA they have, i normally dump a attack squad so i can preserve some planes that will most likely be lost. and it helps in the early game. also another tip i can give is make your plane movement very unpredictable.

[@davidpotts7116]

Just as a general rule of thumb I’ve found as a cv main - if the enemy team actually plays like a team it will be almost impossible for you to do good damage. And that you won’t always be getting 250k+ games despite the community thinking that’s what all cv players get. Cvs thrive off single targets that stray from the aa bubble. If 3 or 4 ships clump together and all fire off their priority sectors at once, you will often be lucky to get one strike in especially if there’s a Worcester or Minotaur in the clump. People who complain about how they can’t do anything against cvs are often the ones who don’t play with the team and get singled out, despite being the perfect target and often only having themselves to blame for presenting themselves as such.

[@EvoraGT430]

Difficult to flank/ambush if you're all clumped up.

[@MaunoMato99]

I play CVs occasionally, it's a relatively quick ( although expensive ) way to reset a line. Just being in a CV doesn't guarantee success, also the non-stop hate from both enemies and team mates is something you have to deal with in most matches. My summary from playing a CV is that, you either farm for your own benefit or you sacrifice a lot of rewards but help the team to win matches. Some CVs ( mostly recent ones ) are extremely OP compared to the old ones, super CVs are down right broken. As the example of Öland in your game play, against weak AA DDs that's a good example of helping your team ( if they actually shoot the DD ) but just don't do that against the Swedish DDs, Groeningen/Friesland etc, knowing the AA of hostile ships is the difference between a good game and absolute 0 impact in a CV.

[@rigsta]

Tip: Try not to spook enemies being targeted by friendly destroyers. It's really frustrating to have a potential dev strike denied by a greedy or oblivious carrier causing a target to turn and dodge your torps.

[@gonger03]

you mean the 7 overpens right?

[@HarunaKaiNi]

praise our new CV overlord

[@shoukatsukai]

You forgot about me >:(

[@HarunaKaiNi]

@@shoukatsukai wah

[@shoukatsukai]

@@HarunaKaiNi I have become CV main

[@missk1697]

@@shoukatsukai very good

[@dantunsoiu7177]

I would say that the most important skill for a CV is being able to read the map and see in what situations you can help your team win an advantage that could snowball in your team winning the game. I've played CVs since beta and I can say that this is still a skill that makes the diference between good CV players and excellent CV players. Afterall with the great power of being able to influnce any skirmish on the map there also comes a responsability that you own to your team.

[@blusafe1]

Which is why CVs are the highest skill cap class. Most players don't know how to look at the map. And that's me being generous.

[@evilferret1453]

As a DD main I have learned to deal with your kind being in the game and still hold a 57% win rate. some tips for dealing with potato head. as he will be called from now on. 1. dont stray too far from your team. especially in the early game. 2. toggle your AA by default pressing P . as soon as these pest fly out of your detection range shut down your AA so these mosquitoes dont keep you spotted letting them line up a shot. unless potato head drops fighters . then your going to have to shoot them down. 3. keep nose in or rear in to torpedo planes and rockets. for dive bombers I sail in a tight circle it seems to throw their aim off . 4. save your smoke for hiding from them . or dropping for your team. not farming BBs. potato heads have a short attention span and will go pester someone else if they cant do damage on your flank. DDs are a support class after all. yes big damage games are fun. but if you want to win games you have to often play the support role by keeping your team mates alive. i usually stay with my flank. around 5km ahead of spotting torps and if needed dropping smoke. I have a you tube channel with DD game play. i play other games as well. glhf ! death to potato heads !!!

[@Rob.DB.]

What is your KZbin channel name...hope its not evilferrrt!...that is a kid channel & a bit weird

[@TheAradar]

A good example is your torp drop on NC at 8min14sec mark. You usually want to use your planes to get damage, but especially with torpedo planes you can use them for the purpose to make the enemy ship sail stupid. Some players are willing to do a 180 degree turn, and sail into your friendly ships he was going to flee from, just to avoid your torpedoes. Or in the case of this NC, willing to crash into island, showing broadside to rest of your team to avoid your torpedoes. It's especially important to use this tactic if you are fleeing from a ship that is chasing you, but are almost within your concealment. Using torpedoes will slow them down enough for you to have the chance to get a bigger distance between you two.

[@dgray3771]

Yup, avoids torps that do 2/3k a piece to get CIT 4 times and deleted by enemy BBs... the logic of BB players. Even worse sometimes the torps cannot do much dmg since the BB has torp prot armor. But they turn away and take 1 right up the bum, full damage and flooding. I play CV but also BB, I just make sure I take the torps on my torparmor when CV attacks me, once the CVs realize I aint biting they just go away hahaha.

[@arizona_anime_fan]

basic sub primer, from someone who's spent a LOT of time in them, and i think i'm pretty good with them. 1) think like a DD; anyplace you think you might be spotted by another dd/ship, is time for you to drop down to periscope depth. Keep an eye on hydro/radar. Radar can spot you on the surface, hydro when you're underwater (even 60m deep, within 2km, hydro can spot you). 2) the lines play completely different after t6. US - Subs are about knife fighting range. they're built for speed, they have lots of torp launchers on the front and back, what you want to do is get into the 2.5km-3.5km range of a bb, on it's beam, to put a whole spread of non-homing dummy fire torps into it's side, then dive down under the bb (in case it survives) back up to periscope range, either from a turn or just sailing under it, to give it your back torpedoes too. (most BBs don't survive the first salvo). put away the pinging, you will only use it to do the following. scare an opposing ship. shoot at a dd with homer (you usually don't want to get close enough for the dummy fire torps, in fact usually you want to avoid dds entirely) or to attack cruisers that are chasing you (mostly light cruisers are as bad as dds). US subs are a lot more "fun" imho of a playstyle. really engaging. German subs however play differently. German subs have longer range, lower damage, faster reload and faster recharge with their ping (faster velocity as well). they're made to shoot from long range with homing torps. you treat them much like you would a bow tanking bb or heavy cruiser. don't get too close, stay far away, back away if foes are pressing close, or slip bellow the waves and sneak away. you want to get on wings, off angle, homers work batter shooting at sides. volley fire your torps, stagger them, shoot them off axis, then ping only when the torps are 2/3 of the way to the foe. this gives them almost no warning and torps coming from two different angles is a LOT harder to dodge. you spend a lot of time on the surface as a german sub, because almost no one should be close enough to spot you. the only times i really dive in them is if there is a CV around, don't want my position shown ever (in fact in a sub it's best if you're never spotted all game. I've actually pulled that one off, while racking up kill after kill. German subs are made for sinking other subs as well, so keep that in mind, I like to use them to clear out subs, dds and crusiers. they're pretty good at all 3. going after bbs is a bit tougher, they aren't great at bbs and even worse going after cvs (compared to US subs, who i've sunk a lot of CVs with), the reason? pinging. BBs have depthcharge planes and an aware one will spot your pinging and start depth charging you, same for cvs... because of the dependence on pinging for german subs, it's a lot harder to go after certain ships... some people will get in close with the t10 uboat, they're depending on the huge alpha from it's dummy fires, but again, the lack of rear torp launchers make this style of play non-sustainable for the t10 uboat. I'd much rather play like that in the balao, and you'll notice most t10 sub players ARE the Balao, not the t10 uboat. the t10 uboat is stuck playing the t6-t8 style playstyle in a tier where every ship has 10+km depthcharge bombers, the style doesn't do well in t10. I don't find german subs fun to play. it's very passive, the lack of rear torpedo tubes makes it impossible to aggressively commit, because if you're spotted and have to run you have almost no teeth to fight back with, they turn slow too, so it's hard to uncommit from a bad position in them. American subs are really fun to play. it's an exciting style, where you're slipping past the enemy lines, and wrecking havok from behind, sinking BBs, CVs and in general causing the enemy lines to collapse. I don't feel like subs have a lot of impact on matches outside of the "fear" factor, and that fear factor can be significant. it's sort of sureal to see an enemy team completely abandon good islands, or a whole flank to hunt down a sub who's behind them, all the while taking withering damage from the oposing team for being in the open. I've turned a lot of battles, just by being SPOTTED behind their lines. Sure, occasionally you can sink a few BBs, maybe collapse a whole flank worth of ships if you're really good, but subs REALLY need the rest of the team to spot for them to be effective, to plan where they're going, who they're going after. They aren't wonderful solo, so i highly doubt a sub will ever win a solo warrior as for captain skills, any skill that is dependent on using an expendable, or being spotted is an idiot trap; sub expendables all have very long recharges, the skill is basically worthless, and anytime your spotted you're playing your ship wrong and that skill better give you shields cause you aren't surviving. my fav are the battery skills (recharge and extra dive time) plus the shaft/prop skill (faster speeds when your battery is low), the skill that affects your turning/diving, plus the usual suspects of ship skills, the t3 skill that tells you if you're in the detection range of a ship is really good too. in the end captain skills for subs are pretty worthless, proving WG doesn't play the game at all.

[@EGSON1996]

No, Anakin!

[@solidtoto]

Scoop: shitting on peoples in easy mode is relaxing, who would have known????

[@celestincordos9269]

How to be sure you get the High Ground

[@b0nkeror452]

But not the moral high ground 😝

[@jeremyburks7882]

If you have standard 3-4 flight squadrons with no heal available (or on cool down) send a flight back to the CV right after launch. Also, send the whole squadron back after attacking with the first flight unless you have a heal active. Less damage, but keeps you in the fight for longer without being deplaned. Towards the end of the game, with less ships and AA, you can then use full squadrons with multiple attack runs.

[@limyarplane1991]

ya its called predropping.

[@prisonerofthehighway1059]

American HE bombers are the most reliable DD hunters for me. Coming in from above, the DD has a harder time tracking them than skip bombers or rockets so it’s more difficult to dodge the strike.

[@erikrodriguez7423]

one advice i can give is that when using midways dive bombers its easier to attack from the rear of a ship than the front since you can follow from the rear but from the front you can over shoot.

[@wenfuwei1396]

as a CV player since RTS CV, I can tell that the worst case scenario is that you are in harkuyu and you see halland-sherman-shima squad charging you. You can do nothing to them and all your teammate talk shit to you. CV's job is to spot and create cross-shots. In current MM, you simply cannot because the team folded in 5 minutes. Those close games with a long time period are the time when CV's OP really shines.

[@Virgilfinnatell]

5 months and still the only video he's uploaded of him playing CVs.

[@matthewbond375]

Good video PQ! I hate playing against CV's myself, so I learned the class just as you are. I have WAY less trouble with them now. You can position yourself in ways that make you an unappealing target, even if your AA is weak. If you're an AA cruiser like my boy the Wooster, you can also position yourself to deny key areas to a CV. You WILL win flanks like this, so don't take it lightly. It's hard to understand when you're a surface ship player, who positions like they're only playing against other surface ships, and you get dunked on by a CV. I get it. I prefer a no-CV/no-sub match much more, too. But this is the game now. If you learn to play CV's (well) up to tier 8 at least, you'll get it, and they won't be such a pain anymore.

[@NormusDiabolus]

You can still steer your remaining planes while watching the bombs drop, so you can evade AA behind your target ships. With some planes you can even turn inside the AA zone of the ship you droped.

[@Faisal-ku6rq]

In Asia server, 99% every game in high tier will have carrier games. Very frustrating. Basically all BB just sit at spawn hugging each other and sniping.

[@Stephen__White]

The irony is that the advice for fighting CVs really hasn't changed since pre-rework. The only real difference is CVs no longer just nuke you in a single strike like they used to. Group up and don't go anywhere alone were the two most basic pieces of advice for fighting CVs. The only real change in the advice is DefAA is now optional and not mandatory. Though if used right DefAA can still be deadly to CVs, you just need to abuse how flak spawns. Long explanation short, flak stop spawning at 3.5km, but if your AA wasn't on before that it will try to spawn the flak as close to 3.5 as possible, so basically you can force flak to spawn inside an attacking squad. Fenyang is great for doing that with, having beautiful mid and long range AA with the DefAA I've melted T10 squads by abusing that little trick. Even managed to kill a whole 7 FDR planes from one attack. Not like that mattered to much because FDR is broken as fuck, but still. It's also refreshing to hear someone as anti-CV as PQ say the words "run out of planes" because yes CV haters it does happen. Flambass playing FDR and just derping the highest HP squads into flak(FDRs squads have the HP total of T7/8 Battleships ~56k HP for the entire squad, each plane has around 2x the HP of other T10 CVs planes do being around 4k) is not representative of how all CVs work. Not that Flambass seems to understand that one. You can indeed be fully out of planes, now yes they do recover, but they take time to recover giving every CV an effective cap on the number of planes they have seeing as they only start recovering once you lose an aircraft. You also only recover 1 aircraft at a time, meaning for Midway on average you are waiting over a minute for a single plane to recover. Also a tip for you PQ, for the first half of the battle, do a dummy drop of your first attack wave of each squad, it helps you save planes into the late game though can make some AA bubbles impossible to strike there will likely be another player or group of players to attack. Reading over this it might not make the most sense, basically do an attack drop to make some of your squad return to the CV. It's also invaluable to do if you are running "Hidden Menace" because of the -50% to your air return speed. Still don't understand that nerf on Wargamings part. A 5% better CE for a ship class that's huge and a lot of them can't afford to give up their 5th slot for concealment gets a massive downside. Also this is just my take but Enhanced Aircraft Armor is basically worthless outside of FDR it sounds great on paper, 25% less damage from flak, but in practice your aircraft still die just as quickly to flak, and it only buys them maybe an extra tick of AA damage from any ship with decent AA. Take a DefAA boosted Worchester for example, it's flak deals before any other modifications 7560 damage. That's around 3 and a half times the amount of HP your planes even have. 25% damage deduction on that isn't going to help, even without that and just a AA build Worchester, you are still looking at 2608 damage from the flak, so even with the bonus you are looking at dead fighters, and torp and dive bombers that have enough HP left to die to a tick of AA damage. I make mention of that because I've seen a lot of people running re-work CVs for the first time take the skill because hey, "it's 25% less damage!" without having done the maths to realize oh no, flak is just to powerful and it's a waste of 4 points. Honestly there is a lot of waste skills in the CV skill tree. "Last Gasp" for example is just kind of meh, "Direction Center for Fighters" is fairly worthless. Almost every fighter skill is a waste of points that looks good on paper. The best use for fighters is to keep someone with weak AA spotted, so what does Wargaming do? Give CVs a line of skills that make the fighters patrol area larger thus make it harder to keep things spotted, make the area even larger at the cost of not being able to spot surface ships anymore and a skill to make them take longer to arrive but when they do they attack other aircraft faster. Oh and a 2 point skill for 1 extra fighter drop per squad, because that's worth 2 points right? I will stop rambling now, as I feel I've said more than I really needed to, but that's just how I roll.

[@Poopster4U]

I too have joined the dark side, after 5 years of playing I started to CV. I feel dirty playing it but also love the challenge.

[@hobiesmith9370]

PQ, I would love to see more replays with CVs in them. The ones where you put the CV on the bottom of the ocean.

[@Hazzzzah95]

He has fallen to the dark side.

[@hulohyou8536]

1 word: Please no more carrier games

[@flazederg6800]

I actually free xp'd nakhimov a couple weeks back and ive actually been liking CV's a lot. Like you said, its very relaxing, you obvs got a lot of game impact, more then any surface ship can have, and its also very enjoyable to make people mald there heads off when you dumster them with minimal to no effort. Theres something very cathartic about it. The fact that there is also basically no way of getting you out of a game quickly and you can just go and farm literally who ever you want with little to no consequence also adds to the relaxing experience.

[@richardcobb1555]

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and guess there is some sarcasm in this post.

[@mercRus]

"you can just go and farm literally who ever you want with little to no consequence" yeah ok lol

[@siriusczech]

@@mercRus with Nakhimov you can

[@mercRus]

@@siriusczech Nakhimov can, very well, vs a majority of ships in the BB/CA ship class* Here I fixed the over simplification.

[@flazederg6800]

@@richardcobb1555 It sounds like it would be, but it unironically isnt xD CV's are honestly as busted as they seem once you learn to play them. Maybe thats not the case with all cv's, but skip bombers allow you to drop literally anyone, regardless of there aa, since it barely procks by the time you drop. You can easily dumster AA cruisers, and usually, even aa dd's if they dont play perfectly against you.

[@f0rs1]

If it was for one specifig advice on CVs: Think about how you can reposition enemy ships. Many ships react in "turning away" or "out of your attack pattern" depending on which kind of planes you approach them with. They rather try to avoid your CV strike while at the same time taking the risk to reposition themself in unfortunate situations. 3 specific scenarions on that, most of them work best (or only) with torpedos bombers: #1 Cross-torp to keep ships in line for incoming friendly torpedos. You approach an enemy ship. You see that your DD has launch a salvo of torps into the same direction. Let's assume you are using torpedo planes as well. The enemy sees your planes earlier than your friendly DDs torps. Usually you approach in line with said torps because of general position during a battle, meaning your torpedos will ultimately come from the same direction as your DDs torps. The ship will turn into (or out of) your strike path and at the same time also evade the torps of your DD. So you want to reroute your planes into a crossfire position. Most likely the enemy will try to you avoid your torps by keeping a straight line (as you are coming from front/back onto them). With him staying on its path he will sail right into your DDs torps. This is best used when dropping your torps from behind the ship, so it has to sail along them for some time. #2 Beaching enemy ships. Especially useful on DDs. Use your torpedos bombers as an area denial against an (usually) retreating, spotted enemy DD. While under fire the DD will jiggle left and right, but he will pay special attention to your torps. If the situation arises, I like to drop my torps in a way of not hit the DD, but to prevent it from going around and Island right in front of it. The DD is likely to beach in order to avoid torpedo damage. You will keep it spotted with the planes (or your fleet might blindfire when no spot available) and even though you caused no damage yourself, the DD will be in quite some trouble. 3# With whatever plane type, make angled enemy ships turn in a way that it might eat flat broadsides from your nearby capital ships. All of this consider to "not" making damage yourself but to support your team in doing so.

[@batrastardly4574]

That poor DD you totally whiffed on was deleted just from your spotting. Basically you got a ship destroyed without even trying. It didn't even merit comment. I get playing the different classes of surface ships to gain the knowledge of their strengths and weaknesses and thereby developing tactical skills. I just don't get how learning the nuances of cancer makes the cancer less cancerous.

[@derrickubay-ubay9503]

It's more of "good to know that exists" rather than something to counter.

[@snorkman2]

I learnt some tricks in T8 1v1 brawls, I chose full AA build on a North Carolina and would run straight for the cap, that was the most vulnerable state, sailing towards planes at full speed. Once the Cap was flipped I turned 180 and steamed off, once up to speed my AA became so much more effective when the planes had to chase. I beat that seasons plague of CV 8 out of 10 games by winning on points. Never used my main guns at all.

[@mercRus]

I'm very glad you finally decided to play these things to fully understand the gameplay, cheers.

[@Anldiot69]

I was a CV main in the RTS days. Every time i try CVs again it feels like a boring downgrade of what we had and i loose all interest... until i forget about it and try again a few days/weeks later.

[@shedsheddington3374]

Dirty sweaty CV main here (Though I don't have the nakhimov yet, just hak(s enabled) and memeway. Just a couple of tips both for carrier play and possibly patterns of attack that a surface ship can look out for to try and pre-empt what a CV player will do (which can be quite hard since CV reaction speed is just 4-6 times higher than ship reaction speed: ~180 knots vs mid 30s). With that in mind, here are some giga-brain sekrit CV strats. I'll also try and give some ways to not really counter, but disincentivize CVs from striking you. 1) Planning: Ideally before you are even done with your next strike, but definitely as you are taking off, you should know what target you are going after and have the appropriate squad loaded. You should also take into account how to use islands to block AA, avoid people spotting (More on this later). Since CVs are all about efficiency and striking fast, speeding this up is probably the single biggest way to boost winrate. As a surface ship, also learn these categories so you know if you are being threatened or not. Are you in a FR BB and see that a hak has launched APDBs? you can probably play more aggressively since the CV won't want to risk planes for low damage. DD against a midways tiny tim rockets? also not a huge threat, HVars? different story. Basically, if you know the CV can't do beeg number to you with the current ordinance, you have (more) freedom to play. Note: this does not cover what is commonly called target griefing like what PQ does to the Oland. In this he has midway torps (the midways worst armament against moving DDs) so PQ won't do any damage of his own to the DD. However, he sacrifices a ton of plane hp for continual spotting to get the team to kill him. This sucks, but there is not a whole lot you can do as a ship player, that's just how WG has designed the game. 2) Predropping: when and how much. This is a corollary to the above point Is there a target that you need to strike even if it'll cost you planes? Knowing when and how much to predrop is not super improtant for farming but can be critical in going to the next level as a CV player. In general, you want to predrop to have enough for a strike, but no extra, which is usually one squad dropping and one as sacrifice. An example of how not to predrop is at 4:52 (sorry for the callout) In this case, it "costs" 6 planes to drop the soyuz but the remaining 3 planes don't do anything. If he had predropped two squads then those three "extra" planes would make it back to the CV. Alternatively, if he hadn't predropped any planes, maybe he could have used the 6 planes to get a chain strike on the pommern. What does this mean as a surface ship player? Take note of if the CV is predropping, because then there isn't really much mitigation you can do; the CV has committed to striking. If the CV doesn't predrop though, then they'll be more protective of the planes hp so you can group up more to dissuade them, use DefAA whatever. 3) Positioning: the value of abusing high AA ships. Sometimes you need to remove that wooster/petro/mino/whatever. Fortunately (for the CV) these cruisers often like stationary island positions. Continuous damage alone will never be enough to stop a strike, its flak that you need to watch out for, but flak stops spawning at sub 2km. As a CV you can approach from an island to cheese your way through most of the AA range and get past the dangerous stuff of the flak. As a surface ship player? Sometimes you do need to hold that rock for as long as possible and the CV will kill you but you can make it take longer with a few things. Again, know the drop patterns. If the CV is using torps, hug that island super close so the CV has to fly all the way around through you AA to strike you. If its DBs, be about 2km from the island if possible as this will allow your AA to fire much sooner since the island won't really be blocking it. Unfortunately, if the CV wants you dead, you gon die, but you can try and make it take as long as/as hard as possible since the single greatest resource for a CV is time instead of hp like for most ships. 4) Pursuit: how grouped up is your death blob? (only for non-RU CVs) This is kind of like the predropping bit, but know the rough spacing of ships so you can plot multiple drops, you need to take into account your attack prep time so you can effectively chain strike and convert this into a time between attacks. Here are the time estimates off the top of my head. Midway: Rockets: 5 sec prep 2 sec aiming (note this does not include rocket delay of 5 secs, but that doesn't affect how you aim, it affects where you aim total 7 sec torps: 5 sec prep ~9ish sec aiming total 12-14 secs dbs: 7 secs prep 2 secs aiming Hak rockets: 5 sec prep 2 sec aiming total 7 sec torps: 5 sec prep ~2ish sec aiming total 7-8 secs dbs: 7 secs prep 3 secs aiming As a surface ship you can know timers to cheese this. Are they using DBs? get a little closer together so after striking the first ship in the chain, their preparation time won't be up yet and they can't physically strike you. Hopefully this helps.

[@legobaguette9657]

if you're a carrier you either use dive bombers or rockets on a dd. they hit way more consistently. if you have to use a torp on a DD, make sure there's a spread (torps reticle not fully aimed), that way you have a higher chance of hitting them. if you have to drop a torpedo on a ship that is parallel to you, make sure the arming point of the torp overlaps the ship. this way they cant dodge it as affectively

[@vekatroniyx3454]

I think you'll know by now that you can't effectively protect your teamates with the fighter planes consumable, this is really mostly a spotting tool rather than an effective counter to the enemy CV (even with the full fighter planes captain build), i am still going to ramble on how the RTS CV where much better for that and now it's basically useless, it is a part of frustration for a lot of old CVs players, as being able to fully control the carrier and being able to defend my teamates by anhilating the enemy squadrons was one of the thing that made me start to play carriers before the rework, I hope you won't have the same frustration as us or as when you're being striked in a surface ships and can't really do anything to protect yourself.

[@evolutionari]

That SW edit was perfect. All jokes aside, playing CV taught me how to play against them with different classes and different specialized ships. Radar too, felt like a cheat button when I first played DDs years ago but then I went head first on radar cruisers and learned to play around them with a DD. It really helps.

[@benitoschmidt95]

I personally played carriers before the CV rework and also continued playing them after, honestly really liking them (not CV main but still around 25 % at this time). I also played a few heavy cruisers and BB´s but literally no DD´s. Then i started grinding multiple DD lines and i really understood why people hate CV´s and so i switched "sides" from pro-CV to anti-CV. Nowadays i think the last time i played a carrier is about 4-5 months ago to look how USSR CV´s need to be played and i am a Cruiser main now, more focused on (ultra-)light cruisers. Although i sometimes hate it when my account stats say 12 % carriers but i´m grateful that i know how to behave in certain situations where you´re actually able to evade the CV-strike fully or partially, just because of my acquired knowledge in the past.

[@sameerkharade7750]

Man, Midway is brutal. Also Nakhimov

[@franz265]

The first attack in the video is already enough said. Rocketplanes dealing 10k to a "tanky" Pommern in a single attack.

[@MarkDrisch]

Okay? A Yamato can do a lot more, a lot more frequent and without expending a somewhat finite resource. What's your point?

[@franz265]

@@MarkDrisch Its something you can avoid or at least parts of it. A carrier you can never avoid its like a killer and it will find you.

[@hectorc7080]

The Dark Side is the path to many abilities some considerer... Unnatural ;-)

[@MrHydenSeek]

Wargaming: Give in to the dark side. PQ: Yes please. You do know they are a gateway drug. Next week will be subs streamed 24/7.

[@anthrax2413]

After watching your torpedo drops, here is a hint. Before initiating a strike, align your reticule to where you want to go. Your planes can't be turning, even slightly, when you initiate the strike. Hold down MB2 if needed to prevent the planes from moving. This way, your aiming won't being so spread out like that and will fully close much quicker. Also, bombers are highly maneuverable. When striking a ship perperdicularly, you can initiate the strike when your plane (not the ellipsis) are above the enemy ship, then make the turn mid air.

[@lorenzonuzzaci2430]

a good advice i can give as surface ship and carrier main player is to memorize which type of planes want your broadside and wich don't. Also if you have an insane dd with anti-air like the halland, deactivate your AA if planes are pathing towards you and activate AA with burst when they are right on top. Carrier will lose almost all the planes in the squadron

[@VeteranMercer3426]

First of. Welcome to the dark side. Second of all. Like in the other videos i think thats a good decision to actual play the thing you hate to know what weakness it has. Also my respect for actually trying them out and not just be the "OP; dont care." Type. Tips for CVs is rather just: Spot all enemies at the beginning with your Rockets, unless your a german cv than torpedos are a valid choice. Attack isoletated targets, keep in mind the AA range of certain ships, place Fighters if possible in caps for both spotting an potential protecting DDs that try to cap. And try enable crossfire for your team with for example the torpedos. Or you play MvR, which currently the best strategy is to after the enemy CV, unless it a german one. espacially if its a Nakimov or FDR and spot the enemies because your planes are very good for that. Also be prepared for a losing match and your team blames you for it. One of the annoying parts of playing this class.

[@nelsonguo2]

I'm a CV main (nearing 60% account WR and 78% CV ranked WR so Im okay. I love watching PQ to get better at surface ships), and your point about planes slingshotting into the enemy grouped AA after an initial strike is correct but you can circumvent this and/or mitigate it but flying your planes correctly (eyeing your squadron on the map) during the launch/drop animation of your first strike. Especially for drops that have long animations and/or have nice turning planes (think tiny tims, Indom bombers, FDR bombers though less relevant due to 25s CD, tech tree Royal Navy CVs etc) you can pilot your planes back round (whilst reading if they readjust their movement or not) by holding A/D and ideally S (to lower your turning circle) to get a perfect quick same-target restrike off and not flying too far away. Having a mod that shows AA range is really OP (you can perfectly place fighters outside of everyones AA bubbles to perma spot deployment/midgame, just be warey of Ships with longrange ASW who can send them to disable fighters) and I take Last Gasp cmder skill frequently on carriers that use it (usually on 19point+ commanders though, it's a luxury skill except on Indom). Last Gasp is also really clutch to get 2 full drops in against good AA ships when you have 3x3 squadrons or 3x4s, since you'll engine boost fully in for the first strike, lose 3 or 4 planes then last gasp activates to boost your last squad I also recommend against Tiny Tims on midway (as someone else pointed out) because it overspecs on "damage farming", I firmly believe HVARS is better for winning games (especially ranked) as you can reliably hit DDs except for low detection ones that you can't spot and drop in one run (in which case you might need to sacrifice fighters). But forcing smokes outside cap and/or getting that one 4-5k drop or two verses some "inexperienced" DD player is usually an instant-win (or mental-boom) sort of play

[@gothia6515]

How to get better with CVs: Go to auto pilot and move your ship towards the enemie at full speed.

[@duongngo9015]

Personally, i think that damage output of carriers is fine cause is realistic, but they should add weapon preparing time, refueling, preparing time to lauch plane... And they should be more vunerable during those sections ( higher chance of deternoting ? ).... preparing time would reduce their massive DPM and make them become more realistic. They should have more plane type to support teammate like anti submarrines plane, scouting planes,...

[@TheL0vecake]

Thank you for showing why the CV class is broken against Destroyers, you said it your self, all you had to do was nothing and your team mates killed him, with out you there he would still be playing the game and having fun.

[@BlackHearthguard]

I'd love to see guides on CVs and even subs... you're right, once you play a class, you get a better idea on how to kill that class.

[@Skill0r1987]

just fyi: planes can maneuver after you left-clicked. So while the attack runs, you already are able to maneuver the rest of your squad, even although the cam is focused on the attack run.

[@amnesiagrunt2356]

Very mature and awesome take on being an unbiased content creator. You're awesome.

[@ergopropterhoc]

like you said, there's more to discover certain dodge/juke angles work better or worse against different carriers and different drops depending on the specific characteristics of their armaments; some have fast torps, some have slow, etc. japanese and german bombers are AP and can citadel you, but unless you're a very easy target or they're a very skilled player, it's likely they won't, and will do much less damage than a same-tier HE bomber. slaloming your planes on the way in to avoid flak is a great idea against one ship with lots of flak, but if you're against lots of ships with poor flak but good continuous damage it'll just get your planes chewed up, and the better move is to go straight in on full engine boost and get it over with perhaps more pointedly, a lot of criticism about russian carriers seems particularly well-founded, because the counterplay to them is very counterintuitive. the tech tree carriers all have strike patterns that allow them to somewhat ignore AA by striking from a distance, and they attack all in one wave so you can't prevent repeat strikes with AA, because there won't be one. but the counterplay to russian carriers is to hold your prio AA until the strike is over and then shoot the planes down on their way out. very counterintuitive, no? planes get 80% damage reduction during the run-up to a strike, and full immunity while in the strike animation, but take full damage again immediately after the strike animation. using your prio AA against an incoming strike is a massive waste - use it against planes transiting near you, or planes immediately after they strike, to have the most effect, and that's particularly nasty against russian planes, which are among the slowest and have among the lowest hp

[@Kat-jy9op]

How to fix CVs (They’ll always be broken but fun to imagine) 1) Give them separate plane for spotting and attacking, that way the carrier has to choose what they want to do for their team 2) Remove the ability of a CV to instantly negate a fire 3) Fox AA guns so they can actually do something, or increase the damage aircraft take from them by a significant amount, making the CV have to be smart about who and where they attack

[@AllAhabNoMoby]

I understand your rationalizations for playing a CV. Still unsubbing. I don't want to be confronted with this shit on youtube anymore than in-game, and at least on YT I have a choice.

[@Sjef0194517]

As a cv main your most important job is to spot DD (except halland ofc). And dont let a focused enemy go dark. As a BB main you should know how frustrating it can be if you can kill a target but it vanishes 4 seconds before you can send another salvo to him. If a CV knows and sees who is targeted you should either 1. Kill him if he is outside team range of 2. Keep him spotted for team to finnish him of

[@4j_2905]

Pro tip: use the 127 mm rockets on midway, they have less attack delay and need less distance from the target while attacking which means you can pretty much go for DD if you take enough lead.

[@robertshaver4432]

As a Pan Euro player I played CVs to learn how to deal with them. Helped a-lot. It brought me back to Oland which became my favorite (2200 games in her). The AA is strong but not brutal but, I'm impervious to Aircraft do to my dodginess, Can't touch this! It's the ship to ship volleys in being spotted that concerns me the most. The Oland here was out of position for a CV game and got clobbered not by the aircraft but via the spotting of the aircraft. He errored really badly and got caught facing 2 DDs at near range as well as a cross firing Montana.

[@skuggsja6020]

Also, I appreciate you, finally one of you CC/Unicums, growing up about this stuff.

[@damaddog8065]

The dark side is so much fun, spotting DD, and subs, camping on subs, bombing low health ships in the back, and wacking CVs.

[@maxjohn6012]

This was very interesting, and helpful! More of this please!

[@DougDibrimi]

"optimizing farming" is exactly right. Also, CVs are the killstealers of the game too. They can easily get to and take out low-health ships after they've exited an engagement.

[@derrickstorm6976]

What's next, liking submarines? WAIT WHAT

[@pancement]

play graf zeppelin and feel the pain of being utterly useless in terms of consistent damage, and your only weapon being the spotting and secondaries

[@t.maximilianwaechter3208]

Weirdly not mad, some actual good points you made there, guess the whole "Know your enemy" thing still applies today just as well as it did in 5th century BC China

[@watchthe1369]

I like the tips that would make a carrier pull back bloody stumps rather than have free success.

[@grug2858]

I recently started to main CVS after subs came out and this title is so fitting. Been playing since 2016 and have never owned a 10 cv till this month

[@aight111]

After getting those two tier 8's for free, I need to apply all the mathematical equation I learned way way way back just to hit a godd@mn torpedo and air bombs 😂

[@Miggs757]

Next video title: "Becoming a Sub Main" Wargaming Staff: "Everything that has transpired has done so according to my design." Pressing F.

[@atlantis8687]

As someone who kinda mains cv and DD i can say that point and click is pretty wrong especially when uptiered. Theres alot of aiming, possitioning and predicting as well as having to manage your squadron and carrier at the same time. if you want to try and negate TDs depending on how close they drop you can turn into them and they will det before arming

[@Mosxutus]

First of all, let me get a few things out of the way. I love your content and I especially love how you approach every situation with a laugh. Sub harassing you? Laugh it off. It's truly refreshing to see a cc not grouch every single minute over something! Keep up the good work! So... I fully agree with the notion of playing every class in order to understand it and would like to see more cv content and maybe even some subs. Seems though there weren't any more videos with cvs after this one, unless I missed something this last year or so I'm following you. Now... about subs. I started playing them in order to understand them and I fell in love with them (yes, I'm one of those guys, don't stone me to death all at once pls)! I get though where the frustration from most players comes from. Hell, sometimes when I'm on the receiving end, I feel the same way. If a sub player knows his stuff... Ugh! However... I don't think subs are a bad addition or that they are ruining the game. A subs life ain't all roses, let me tell you. A sub captain can play it safe (meaning a very sneaky and nigh impossible to hit sub), and that can often annoy a captain on the receiving end, but at the same time, feel a lot like useless sailing around, having no battle impact to the sub captain. You (the sub) launch a lot of torpedoes from a distance, most, if not all of them, are easily avoided and you're just there for the spotting, if even that. Of you play more aggressively, you are a more easily spotted and once found, you can bet that every single enemy in range will have it out for you. I'll end this, rather lengthy defence of subs, by saying that having some 6 to 10 torpedoes that pop up from nowhere and actually follow you around is only a degree of magnitude worse than having a wall of torpedoes popping up near you, sometimes at less than a km away (for dw torps). Yet torpedoboats have been since forever in this game and nobody has any problem. Sure... Subs may be a bit more difficult to interact with than dds (debatable since dds don't telegraph their approximate position every once and a while with pings) but not by much.

[@johnrossman6679]

Yeah, I got the Kaga black and the Saipan black for free in my collection a while back and decided to try out the Kaga to see how CVs play.

[@cheerio3878]

best advice about subs I can give is what to prey on. Kill island huggers. It's easiest and best thing you can ever do for yourself and your team. As surface shit veteran you should know where the best camp spots are, so just go to the opponents ones at the very start of the game. Then you just pop into their face and do your shotgunning thing. No simple maneuver can help in such situation. Also the chance they would run hydro while covering behind island is miniscule.

[@johnhunter9720]

Ship request: Buffalo

[@Corvusfromcentaura]

You've become a carrier..... to destroy carriers.

[@sirarterian]

Nothing wrong with a well rounded channel, you make, we watch its that simple!

[@ivan65t]

Just starting my attempt at CV since the big update many years ago. British Hermes. Here for some quick “How to” answers. Thanks. 😅

[@rippking3167]

i like your cv gameplay

[@rarfaylogna1997]

Wise one once said "if you can't beat them, join them!"😁

[@Rechtschreibfehler1712]

6:30 isnt completely wrong with the fly over on the DD while beeing in the Attack (Green phase) the planes get a damage reduction keeps him spottet for longer (Sry for Bad English not a native speaker)

[@Yannic1982]

I think this a great nuanced approach. This is a better approach then just complaining about them and wil help people get better at countering them. I dabbled in CV's as well and discovered a couple of things to better counter them. I'm trying subs for the same reason.

[@Pliskkenn]

Through these videos I will learn how to deal with them better.

[@franciscobarquin8718]

I've seeing you playing for a long time, and being one who learned a lot from your guides... This made me having some confronted thoughs: - Why would one of the best players on this game need to play CVs (and submarines) if he managed to have a quite excellent game knowledge without touching them? - Would you be playing them if you were not a CC?

[@Felix-by1lh]

pq isnt a cc....

[@AdamtheRed-]

@@Felix-by1lh yes he is. He joined a couple months ago.

[@AdamtheRed-]

The answers are: -He needs to play them because he's ultimately a hypocrit and he wants to expand his viewer-base. (To prove it, the douche CV mains have come out of the woodwork to comment on this vid) -he would absolutely _not_ be playing them if he weren't a CC.

[@Pide0piper]

im curious what is considered the the best cv's , premium or not, if you can make a list id tip you on twitch

[@chriskola3822]

I wish more carrier players would understand the value of spotting dds, particularly early in the game. You don't even need to waste your torpedoes on it, just keep it spotted.

[@wazdalos]

Was the same for me. I started out only playing DDs (I still play them the most if I play at al) but at that time CVs were super strong against DDs. It was right after the rework, when the rocket strikes were super accuarate and you could just mess DDs up - they even could use radio location which is crazy. Anyhow it became so bad that I thought I either quit the game or start playing them myself, to see what I can do against them. Then I started playing them more and more and its now my second most played class and I became pretty damn good in them.

[@Pinhead_larry25]

im sure youve seen this but when i was a sinner, to assist people hunting dds i would drop fighters over them, or over their smoke to keep them spotted for a second, or if they leave the smoke, and if they have aa on it totally gives their position away.

[@blitzpelirrojo]

"To understand a bully your must become one "

[@KES33615]

I like that you are doing this. I see a lot of hate on the channels. I have been playing the Submarines and they are tough to have an impact. They are not the submarines of a year ago and the hate is unwarranted with the toned-down damage and homing. CV's have much more of an impact.