Power Levels are Stupid [DBG #2]

[@ArlanKels]

The stupidest thing ever is that Tien, who actively trains every day for his entire life.. Is weaker than Krillin. Who sits around drinking beers and playing with his daughter.

[@dominickperez2952]

He did a video on it

[@peposo7]

Because he is having unprotected sex with a female that changes mood & hair color frequently.

[@spiceseller9928]

peposo7 nah she left him they never had that type of relationship.

[@joshjames582]

I believe it's because of his experience on Namek and his power boost from the Grand Elder. For whatever reason that was more effective than Tien's training, because of anime logic.

[@smaragdchaos]

Toriyama hates Tenshinhan because Tenshinhan is apparently based on a jock who used to pick on Toriyama all the time, that's why Tenshinhan never gets any glory. You could say that it's actually a surprise Tenshinhan even got to face the glory of doing something meaningful against villains like Cell as the only human in the series.

[@eishikibahamut]

I have a feeling Toriyama keeps making conflicts with bad guys who are "the most powerful in the world, space, universe" is because he's been trying to end the series for nearly 3 decades

[@trainmaster997]

Yes this. I have been looking for this comment. I understand where plague is coming from but Toriyama has WANTED TO END IT so he didn’t think far ahead, but jump would basically dump money on him to force him to keep writing. He didn’t want to continuing making manga, but when the people who are employing you give you more and more money, it’s hard to turn down that offer. And he kept trying to, until he was able to at the end of the buu arc. And guess what? Toei continued it with gt because of how much money it was making and toriyama contributed to it a bit just in an effort to not make it completely horrible, so he didn’t think far ahead as he wanted to either end it soon or didn’t really care anymore and just knew he had to put something out.

[@MrBigcuts36]

I heard that he originally wanted to end it after the Frieza saga?

[@idontcareanymore7078]

@@MrBigcuts36 if that's true then im glad he didnt stop because cell saga was 👌

[@Schwartzbruder1]

@@MrBigcuts36 toryama intended to end dragon ball numerous of times but just kept going. Originally it would've ended back when they first found the dragon balls and oolong used the wish on on some panties

[@delxsm]

Schwartzbruder1 I think when it was supposed to end at a Frieda saga was a myth. And there was also another one where I think that Toriyama didn’t think it would be right to change the main character to gohan

[@11wuzzup]

Remember when super almost made an interesting fighter with Hit, the guy who can stop time, and they made the way to beat him, "I'm just stronger than your ability to stop time."

[@flameknightdragon]

that is an issue with dragonball no mater how cool an and interesting someones powers are they are just overcome by power levels. like with the hit fight. Goku had to use his brain until they got lazy and used power levels to make goku not effected by it.

[@ExeloMinish]

Honestly, that one's more due to the fact that time stop powers with little restriction are a giant can of worms that really should stay closed. They're pretty much impossible to beat in a satisfying way, since by definition you can't do anything to counter them besides maybe "kill the guy in his sleep". Dragon Ball did a terrible job with them, so did Jojo, and really most stories that tried them.

[@11wuzzup]

@@ExeloMinish well I agree time powers can get messy, bit I think they could've used the opportunity to to tease some kind of pre Untra instincts mode. Like a partial step up to it where goku has to stop thinking about the time skip and allow his body to try and react to where Hit would be time skipping too, rather than, "wow I'm just strong enough to fight through time skip XD"

[@markocumic8287]

DjiDji no it started promising its not too broken if he can use it for what was it like 0.5 seconds? Because its possible to predict it as goku did they ruined it when hjt started improving tho

[@blackpants7385]

@@ExeloMinish I disagree with your statement about JoJo. Sure, the solution was basically "have the same power", but that didn't make the power irrelevant at all, and instead managed to make it stay relevant while the fight itself remained interesting.

[@MrBearyMcBearface]

Remember. Nappa lifted two fingers and nuked a city. Somehow someone 30 million times stronger than him nuking a city is a feat of power.

[@Whodjathink]

This! I've mentioned how the feats kinda peaked back in early Dragon Ball(not even Z, Roshi blowing up the moon is a big deal) yet they expect me to believe that 2 people waaaaaaaaaay stronger than that, fighting at faster than lights speed and stronger than strength power didn't blow up the earth by casually attacking each other? *I don't believe it*

[@Whodjathink]

There was also Dyspo who's feat was "Faster than Light" but.....that's been a thing since Dragon Ball Z as well 🤦‍♂

[@giornogiovannatheultimateb8553]

@Fronick filler

[@moebiusstarwatcher]

They can control their power. Cell can destroy an entire island with a little bit of his power, Buu can destroy the earth and vegeta when he arrives can do it too. It's just that comes to a stage of power, the enemies like the heroes control their attacks so as not to blow up the earth. The heroes are always careful not to launch a wave of energy on the earth

[@giornogiovannatheultimateb8553]

@@moebiusstarwatcher so we gonna ignore the fact out control broly doesn't immediately delete earth?

[@darkexecutorFOX]

Defining ki as an armor/heat/power source is perhaps the best definition I've ever heard. Ki as some sort of armor: The plot armor.

[@education654321]

Simón González Luengo and remember in dragon ball super when the gods said they could feel Jirens heat from where they were sitting. So he knows a little stuff.

[@CaptainDoomsday]

That's how it works in Hokuto no Ken.

[@markocumic8287]

education654321 thats dbs tho they’d have u believe you can go super saiyan 1 and 2 by tickling your back

[@katsura2605]

Thats how it works in hxh

[@adampena8815]

No. That's just the power system buddy

[@JoeNeutrino]

Plague never wanted to be a Dragon Ball channel. He's become everything he ever hated. The more the viewers enjoy these videos the more he loathes us and himself. Don't stop.

[@1TitanButtons]

It's just like Pat said, Plague is successful now and he hates it!

[@tylercafe1260]

His loathing gives him a zenkai boost

[@yeti25934]

Joe Neutrino our enjoyment raises plague's power level!

[@nomoreidolatry9845]

Tyler Cafe *Just* Like Broly.

[@RokaSoka]

Well when there are few decent new Dragonball channels that tends to happen. The community is among the worst on KZbin right now.

[@OtioseFanatic]

Hey remember that time that Toriama was getting interviewed about the cell saga and he interrupted the person questioning him because the interviewer was using the androids numbers to refer to them by saying “they have names you know.” Despite there names straight up never being used in the anime (or the manga as far as I’m aware) and only mentioned like, once, in a supplementary book. Everyone in the room just was like “then what are their names toriama!?” And he couldn’t answer. That’s the kind of writer he is.

[@M4x_P0w3r]

Or when Launch dissapeared from the setting for a long time because Toriyama forgot she existed?

[@journey95far49]

@@M4x_P0w3r launch was a minor character anyway

[@journey95far49]

He is still a good writer, otherwise DBZ would never have been so iconic

[@VetusDea]

Ah yes, and SAO, too, is a masterful literary piece, simply by virtue of being iconic. Yeah, no. Reputation does not retroactively define quality.

[@brandonsmith2172]

A Mediocre Artist I think you don’t really understand what iconic is... SAO iconic? Don’t make me laugh. Db has it’s fault, it’s certainly not the best in terms of writing but what it is and what it made for future generations of shounen makes it iconic. Star Wars is iconic, Batman is iconic, Superman is iconic, Spiderman is iconic and Goku or dragon ball is iconic in that sense. Goku has a holiday dedicated to him, Db is the most known and popular anime on the planet. Something this big that was and is enjoyed throughout the world has qualities. At one point, reputation can define quality to a degree. Now back with SAO, it’s really not iconic and in no way on the same league as the other stories and characters I’ve mentioned.

[@DaSheepKiller]

"Roshi is the strongest on Earth" >Okay, so what happens when Goku surpasses him? "Oh, there's a demon king now who's so strong he could only be stopped originally by being sealed away" >So what happens after Goku beats him? "He has a son who is the reincarnation of him" >Ok cool, so what happens after Goku beats him? "We're going to space now, and there's tons of strong alien races, like the Saiyans which Goku is one of" >Ok cool, now that we're in space there's infinite possibilities for strong warrio- "This Freezer guy is the strongest in the universe" >Ok what the heck. "But now this evil scientist on Earth has been gathering data from all the Z fighters to create super powerful androids" >Ok cool but where do you go from there? "Now there's this incarnation of evil named Majin Buu who was around millions of years ago and after being sealed away he's coming back" >Ok, but where do you go from there? "There's gods and angels now, who are so strong that Goku & Vegeta will pretty much never surpass them. Oh and there's also 12 universes" >Wow, 12 universes! Surely you won't squander this- "Frieza's back and stronger than Goku after training for 4 months" >Ok that's stupid but at least it doesn't break anything involving those universes. "Here's the strongest guy in the 6th universe" >Dude what the heck? Oh well, there's still 10 other universes. "Here's this evil god who stole Goku's body and pretty much has infinite potential because God logic, also he fuses with another version of himself who's immortal, and he's only beaten by destroying everything that Future Trunks has ever worked to protect" >Ok I'll tolerate that I guess, but what about those universes? "Here's the strongest guy in all 12 universes" >You ruined it. "And here's the Legendary Super Saiyan who gets insanely strong in mere minutes to the point where Goku & Vegeta need to fuse to stop him" >Okay, how do you get stronger than that? "With this evil goat man who was also around millions of years ago and was imprisoned, but now he broke free. He's weak on his own but he gets stronger by absorbing the energy of people & planets" >Actually a pretty cool concept, but how do you top that and Broly? "idk here's this guy who got stronger by wishing for it" >Dude wtf "and here's this other guy who also wished to become stronger" >Seriously? "oh and here's Frieza again, he trained for 10 years and now he's black" >Ah yes, another random power-up for Frieza. What's next, is Cell gonna come back? "i mean... kinda?" >Of course.

[@EonTheAien]

No words to describe how amazingly this comment sums up the bonkers power escalation in the DB franchise. It's a great read and great watch, not to mention how much of an impact Dbz has had on the western introduction to anime, but I think everyone in this comment section can watch and love the show while acknowledging its faults.

[@EonTheAien]

Still, great comment.

[@Bleeperblopper497]

@@EonTheAien show sucks now no matter HOW much you defend it

[@jasonlewis4438]

@@Bleeperblopper497 There's a difference between writing sucking and a show sucking. Writing sucks when it falls apart from a critical, or at least marginally analytical view. A show sucks when it's unenjoyable.

[@ssjgotenks2009]

dude stop jrien was never the storgnst guy in all 12 uynvurnse he stognst ofrm u11 storgner then has god but not stornge then all 12 did all 12 unvirnse joiun the fight hell no sotp hate wheny uo kno wnoting and every thin you shit on japen loves airk care what japen not you

[@EdmacZ]

Hey, how do they beat this antagonist of the arc? Outsmarting him? Attacking and exploiting a weakpoint? Using a specific Achilles heel they are vulnerable to? Finding the source of their power and cutting them off from it? Being conservative so their power gets weaker over time? No. Just STRONG. Bigger NUMBERS. And that is DBZ/DBS in a nutshell.

[@dialena4418]

Wouldnt fully say that that was dbz

[@scottyj8655]

@@dialena4418 it was, execpt for the radiz and vegeta fights

[@spongeboymebob771]

And it was fantastic.

[@cryw1092]

I just don't get how to enjoy this... would it even be a good thing if I did?

[@spongeboymebob771]

@@cryw1092 Don't see why not.

[@DrsJacksonn]

>Frieza is the ultimate, unbeatable villian with God-like powers, destroys planets with the flick of his finger >Gets beaten by legendary ultra warrior who is even more powerful >Some old guy just creates 2 robots, each of which are like 10-100x stronger than either of the previous god-like warriors. Just like that. Conveniently *just* after unbeatable tyrant has been defeated

[@able5119]

P247 yea I never liked that.

[@DrsJacksonn]

@@able5119 He shoulda skipped the androids and went directly to Cell. I mean, a villain made of the DNA of all the most powerful warriors in the universe being that strong - that I can actually believe.

[@able5119]

P247 also I think the Android were supposed to be the main villains but no one liked it like that and he just made it up as he went. Same thing with cell’s transformations. The first was to bug like, 2nd was to stupid lookin, and then 3rd was the best

[@federicopalacios7439]

@@DrsJacksonn The original story was even worse, Toriyama (who was obviously already very tired of writing DB), intented for Gero and fat clown to be the bosses of the saga, but his editor said they were ugly, so he created 17 and 18, but his editor once again said "now they're just some teens", so he made Cell, and YET AGAIN, his editor was like "he's ugly, but he can transform right?", so Perfect Cell came to be. Seriously, the entire android saga would have been trash if it wasn't for Toriyama's editors.

[@shinji136]

Federico Palacios It’s already trash anyways, so it’s not like the editors helped.

[@asvarien]

Shows like Dragonball(Z/S) suffer the same problems as MMOs. You get to the endgame, do the training grind, take on the big bad be it demons, dragons or literal gods or whatever and defeat them. Then the expansion drops and the wildlife in the new zones (rats, deer, wolves ect) start kicking your ass.

[@lejohnavery4556]

Your not wrong. We seen this happens throughout various anime shows.

[@Chud_Bud_Supreme]

Not just MMOs, but pretty much every RPG ever The best example I can think of is Star Ocean 2 on the Playstation, whose battles do kinda look like DBZ battles The first boss of the game is some guy who possesses a stone that can turn him into a monster. He's so enamored of his own power that it goes to his head, but he's only the first boss and is quickly outclassed In the late game, you have to do some fetch quests to make a sword that can, and I quote, "destroy a small planet;" and it's not even the best sword in the game Then their solution for beating the final bosses of the game, other than getting some mcguffins, is just train in a training center like in DBZ But then it turns out you can do something to unlock the final bosses true power for a challenge, but to beat him you have to do the Cave of Trials which will kick your ass if you don't use every exploit the game affords you, of which there was enough to break the game wide open up until then It's fun at first, but you eventually realize it's nothing but escalating numbers

[@legalam]

I always felt that way, like how Freiza ruled the entire galaxy but Dr Gero makes some robots in his garage that are 10 times stronger.

[@Chud_Bud_Supreme]

@@legalam Being a super genius who invents something ridiculous is the ultimate plot contrivance

[@parkeralan19]

legalam yea that always pissed me off too cause he never he makes up some bullshit like this is some super metal or anything like that, by all means the one android who is straight up machine should not even come close to a super sayians level no man made should considering they can wipe planets how can any machine come close to that?

[@drex6347]

"Can white hair edgelord Gohan defeat this new threat". Good call.

[@nok4799]

This man is an Oracle

[@flavourously]

blanco

[@adrianpaul1985]

B e a s t G o h a n

[@giornogiovannatheultimateb8553]

@@flavourously fuck me..

[@MinscFromBaldursGate92]

Dragonball Super: Superhero has entered the chat.

[@Levitz9]

You know what this reminds me of? Astro Boy. No, really. One of the most famous arcs in Astro Boy was "The World's Strongest Robot". (Naoki Urusawa adapted it into Pluto, which is a badass manga. Check it out.) In "The World's Strongest Robot", a robot named Pluto goes around the world killing the most advanced robots around: a cutting-edge robot butler with six hands, a solar-powered robot, a robot made out of an alloy that makes it immune to all forms of energy, etc. Pluto's output was calculated at 1,000,000 horsepower, and he just thrashed all of these robots with brute strength. He occasionally used some insight, like fighting Epsilon the solar-powered robot in a rainstorm, but he was so strong he could just kick one of the guys in the shin and kill them. (He was also big.) To wit, he flew by *helicoptering his torso*. Now, Astro knows Pluto is coming after him, so he demands that Dr. Elefun upgrade his output from 100,000 horsepower to 1,000,001 horsepower so he can keep up with Pluto. In a twist, Elefun *refuses* to do that for two reasons: one, Astro wasn't meant to be a fighting robot, and Elefun refused to upgrade Astro in a way meant almost exclusively for combat. Two, because Elefun insisted raw strength wasn't everything. So when Astro and Pluto meet, Pluto's maker reveals he had *another* robot in the wings; an even *bigger* one with *two* million horsepower. And this robot *demolishes* Pluto in a tragic scene. But Astro beats this big robot: he's so small, he could pry his way into the robot's armor and dismantle him from the inside. A 100,000 horsepower naked robot boi beat a 2,000,000 robot death machine... with creativity. The World's Strongest Robot was a story about the futility of the pursuit of military escalation. And to be fair, Osamu Tezuka was a far better writer than Toriyama. But it completely demolished the idea of power levels *decades* before they became popularized.

[@amberbaum4079]

Pluto was so good. I wasn't this heavily emotionally invested in a manga for a long time to the point where the whole Gesicht arc, as well as Epsilons death, made me tear up.

[@ShookieShook]

It's like, power levels are fine, but they can't be the "be all, end all" to your fights. Someone with a higher number shouldn't automatically be assumed as the clear winner before a fight begins, that's just shitty writing.

[@stormintheshell5130]

i love the astro boy manga!

[@sylviemikulcova887]

@@ShookieShook It should be expected by the characters and audience just to be subverted.

[@iliveinsideyourhouse1367]

Finally some recognition for the god of manga and naoki urasawa.

[@buscuitnaught3026]

"Tricks a bipolar bank robber into living with a registered sex offender" Y'know, when he puts it like that...

[@doctormoney106]

Buscuitnaught ay

[@Sener]

I like how PlagueofGripes hates Dragon Ball and loves Dragon Ball so much at the same time.

[@ADAJ342]

The perfect summary for this video

[@ADAJ342]

@@gajodealfama2280, that's nice

[@FooeyMcgooey]

We enjoy this anime, but this video is full of passion.

[@ArlanKels]

Don't we all?

[@xmenrock2000]

XII IIX god I hate when people that haven’t written a day in your life

[@richardthompson1125]

It's still super frustrating to me that ultra instinct immediately turned into just another multiplier. Mushin's such a cool concept, but who cares about mastering martial arts, Goku needs a bigger beam.

[@no_less03]

It's not meant to be a multiplier. In the mange (during the moro arc, I think), Whis explains that the silver hair just shows Goku's potential power, but UI isn't about a transformation, but about preserving energy and landing critical hits rather than just go "punch, punch, boonga boonga".

[@JuwanBuchanan]

@@no_less03 Ultra Instinct originally was said to be a technique that anyone can obtain. Not just Goku. Ultra Instinct was the perfect concept to make all the Z-Fighters relevant again because they would have had access to this power of the gods to help keep up with stronger characters but Toei scrapped this and just made it another boring transformation that only Goku can access. UI is a wasted concept and ain't shit anymore cuz Black Frieza apparently overpowers this form and one shot Goku out of it in the manga.

[@chillhour6155]

@@no_less03 it's just kaioken white

[@Sesameking482]

If UI wasn't turned into a transformation it would have been a great way to reintroduce ssg back into usage. Since UI needs a calm and clear state in order to be used, ssg in theory would be the only transformation to work with the technique (if it stayed as that), and maybe kaio Ken another technique. This would be the power to Goku's strength with UI making it more critical.

[@ouchiegiverjr]

You should kinda feel silly for thinking this wasn’t gonna just be another power up.

[@TskillenT]

Haha the imagery of goku wiping out galaxies and possibly millions of civilizations in the process of beating the big bad whilst screaming "HAAAAA", had me in tears.

[@JuwanBuchanan]

Tbh Goku is so strong strong that he realistically should be destroying universes in his "God Forms." Because you know he has a higher number.

[@MrTokyoJunkie]

@@JuwanBuchanan They kind of covered this with his fight with Beerus in the original god form. Where they were slowly destroying reality by punching each other? But then goku 'figures something out' and cancels out the punches so that no more damage is done to the universe. Idk, it was pretty poorly explained in the show.

[@JohnnyYeTaecanUktena]

@@MrTokyoJunkie Beerus was canceling out the waves as he felt it was enough collateral damage plus to make up for the time he was asleep

[@MinscFromBaldursGate92]

The dead cats are supposed to be the destroyed civilisations?

[@RoronoaZoro-ur6hr]

@@MinscFromBaldursGate92, Beerus is based off an actual real life Spinx cat that Akira Toriyama owns, and Champa is based off of real life Egyptian Pharaohs because the Pharaohs in Ancient Egypt were as obese as the country with the most obese people in the world, and the Pharaohs also had the most cats.

[@katchy99]

"you see, *girlie* , u may think u got me all figured out, but theres one thing u didnt account for. *mY nUmbErS, ArE biGgeR tHaN YoURs* "

[@nicholashernandez4611]

That worked so well on Sword Art Online Abridged.

[@thisrandomdude2880]

SAO abridged is a gift

[@MinscFromBaldursGate92]

Oh my goooood.

[@Idontrunntoofast]

I scrolled down for this comment.

[@katchy99]

@@Idontrunntoofast LMAO

[@Conflict-ff5pi]

TBH seeing the dragonball characters doing super fast sign language mid battle to talk to each other would have been both more realistic and hilarious.

[@Newportal1]

Conflict1914 : Nah man. I still get them to talk, but due to the speed of the fight - they'd just be shouting incoherently at each other due to no thoughts being artculated in the brain. Like a pair of drunken idiots that they are.

[@1001011011010]

Can't they communicate telepathically? Wait...what if, like the fights being slowed down for our benefit, they show mouth flaps for our benefit too!?11! ?

[@Excalibur5k]

honestly sound lag makes for a good joke. in the archie sonic comic, he played a guitar on a hill and then ran down to the base to greet tails faster than the music did. thats stupid as fuck but thats the kind of stupid shit you should do when you establish your character moves faster than sound.

[@YourCrazyDolphin]

I just defaulted to Goku and Vegeta doing some ju-tsu looking stuff, then Vegeta just flipping Goku off.

[@vazak11]

I would honestly adore this cos it honestly sounds super neat.

[@ironball2847]

I'm still wondering how the hell did Dr. Gero create 5 androids (including himself) that are on par/above full power Freeza in a few years. You know, the most terrifying, strongest powerful being on the universe (at the time)? He manages to do all of that on a "backwater planet", while also basically alone.

[@haku8135]

Well he had a camera watching fights you see......... No that's literally all the fucking explanation. He had a robot spy on Goku's fights and he JUST MADE THEM STRONGER! Keep in mind FRIEZA was blown to bits, SURVIVED SOMEHOW and then was augmented BY STATE OF THE ART SPACE CYBORG SCIENCE SHIT to make himself even STRONGER than when Goku fought him, and he's still SO WEAK a version of Trunks MUCH weaker than the MUCH WEAKER version of the Androids he fought (cause supposedly the present day 17 and 18 are even stronger than the future versions I think for some reason) was able to manhandle him with zero difficulty. So Gero built 17 and 18 to not just be stronger than Frieza, but MILES stronger than Frieza to the point much more advanced technology cannot do THE SAME FUCKING THING that he did to make Frieza stronger! WHAT!? Let me say this shit AGAIN. Frieza achieved the POWER OF GODS by working out for a few MONTHS, and doing the SAME THING as Gero did to 17 and 18 with VASTLY superior technology and resources, made him WEAKER than the pussy that 17 and 18 could slap around without so much as a scratch. Then he got EVEN STRONGER THAN THAT BY DOING LITERALLY FUCKING NOTHING! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

[@rileyfreeman3778]

@@haku8135 yea the camera thing was stupid no way it should have survived all the fights

[@haku8135]

@@rileyfreeman3778 Especially with how much they like to jerk off their character's power levels because they're not actually as impressive as people make them out to be. "Oh, his power is so great, it's SHAKING THE GROUND AROUND US! IT'S BREAKING APART THE STONE!" But this small delicate camera over here is totally fine.

[@theevilpyro7033]

Well he was an average fighter but a BRILLIANT SCIENTIST!

[@TheArkLich]

Dr Gero built these androids in a cave....with a box of scraps!! Similar logic as Iron Man. It demands that you don't think about it.

[@manguy01]

_"Infinite possibilities. 12. TWELVE infinite possibilities, and he blows his wad on the FIRST jerk."_ lol. So true.

[@DetectiveMysterious]

MicManGuy it was actually only 8 involved in the tournameny

[@L-eye-t]

@@DetectiveMysterious THAT'S EVEN WORSE! He had twelve infinite possibilities and barely explored four of them!

[@antitheist3206]

Hell, if you think about it, we only got a look at Universe 6 before the tournament began. It's like one of those cursed images that gets worse the more you look at it...

[@funnyvalentinedidnothingwrong]

@@antitheist3206 We barely even got introduced to that universe. 95% of what we saw was "oh holy shit look at the AU SAIYANS GUYS!" With another 4 % being "gosh Hit is so kewl! Look at how keeewl Hit is ohmahgawd"

[@supereldinho]

Just a reminder: In Dragon Ball, Master Roshi was able to destroy the moon at a power level of a little over 100 and King Piccolo casually destroyed a massive part of a city as a demonstration of power. Fast-forward to DBZ where the power scale was so completely off the charts that by the end of the Cell saga alone, characters had a destructive potential at a STELLAR LEVEL, effectively making their energy blasts on par with a supernova. THEN fast-forward to DB Super and just try to explain to me how they can reliably fight one another without obliterating the entire solar system they're inhabiting as collateral damage just from exchanging punches. I'm having a tough time accepting the fact they can even engage in mundane everyday activities without accidentally destroying the entire planet whenever they exert themselves.

[@treemane0]

Exactly Mann, dbs is like : everybody gets to be Gods now

[@JuwanBuchanan]

One reason Dragonball super is trash

[@Artistofprocedure]

@@JuwanBuchanan so is Z

[@AdmiraHax]

I guess they manage to control themselves? That's probably what Toriyama was thinking of... at least I hope he was thinking of something.

[@treemane0]

@@JuwanBuchanan fax

[@nova_zar]

"This is just entertainment, not a religion" Latin America: allow us to introduce ourselves.

[@geo4290]

Pues sí xd

[@pokeman5699]

this is one of the reasons why ive always been ashamed of being latin american

[@linkshellvendor]

Kamen

[@Hextor26]

@@pokeman5699 You shouldn't be ashamed of what others do

[@apiocosmico833]

@@Hextor26 Actions made by others make stereotypes, and that's bullshit.

[@Caelumblade]

The longer the series goes on, the more this video is proven right…

[@Nothingness4907]

It isn't

[@Bleeperblopper497]

@@Nothingness4907 cope, weeb.

[@dylanbuchanan6511]

Honestly the more ANY series goes on the more this video is proven right.

[@tailedgates9]

What's the lesson here folks? Know when to fucking stop with your story. Lol Thank GOD Togashi stopped at the right time with Yu Yu. Who knows how bad that would have gotten.....

[@howard7318]

@@tailedgates9 The lesson I got from the video is to make a long lasting power system that doesn't get stale fast.

[@trueblueryu5713]

Another early example from original DB was General Blue. He had a paralysis ability (admittedly it wasn’t very well explained, but it was a cool concept). Goku and Krillin couldn’t get through it, but then they had to introduce Tao. Now, in the manga, Tao killed Blue before Blue tried the paralysis move, but in the anime, Tao was suddenly too strong to be effected by the move for basically no reason. A similar thing happened in the Saiyan Saga where Nappa was apparently too strong for Chiatozu’s psychic moves to be useful, and from that point on, Chiaotzu became useless.

[@valydendor4472]

I only watched the anime, and I thought it was odd that Tao was just able to shrug off General Blue's power. Especially when you consider that later on, Goku, who is arguably stronger than Chiaotzu, got paralyzed by him.

[@valydendor4472]

@Sun Wu-Entai 90 That's a good explanation for Tao, but it still pisses me off when Nappa wasn't even slowed down by Chiaotzu's power. Then later on namek they Krillen and Gohan, who I'm pretty sure are a good amount stronger than Guldo, were caught by his power.

[@valydendor4472]

@Sun Wu-Entai 90 Not sure I believe that. If it wasn't for Guldo's unique abilities I'm sure either Krillin or Gohan could have killed him in two seconds flat. A lot of the fight was just Guldo running away from there attacks like a coward. He didn't seem to be a competent fighter either missing plenty of chances to kill them in his time stop. Jesus, you do think to much about these things when you're older.

[@Jdudec367]

@@valydendor4472 ok with guldo...pretty sure his powers were stronger. That and of course the strength difference between chiaotzu and nappa is a lot huger then krillen gohan and guldo, even if krilln and gohan were stronger then guldo.

[@Jdudec367]

@@valydendor4472 also lol there is no such thing as thinking to much about stuff like this XD. well maybe there is...but I don't think your over thinking it.

[@sorrydudebros]

I still come back to this to watch the Kamehameha scene, it really is the most impressive thing ever

[@Rio..o7..]

12:44

[@prachetasnayse9709]

22:53 is now the meme

[@chef4240]

O,hqhqzojqvqhgiig

[@chef4240]

@JLW2490 98?

[@chef4240]

@@prachetasnayse9709 kf

[@SabeNo-rh7mb]

This literally proves what I been saying about SSB for the longest. For all it's hype and fanfare, it really doesn't seem any more effective than a regular SSJ transformation. It's just a glorified aesthetics change. And what makes it even worse than any of the previous transformations is the fact that it's supposed to literally turn Goku and Vegeta into "Gods", whose powers are supposed to be strong enough to rival Destroyers. But *FAR* too often do they get their shit kicked in by SO MANY *MORTAL* characters, that I can't help but ask "Why even give them God powers in the first place?". Seriously, Toriyama might as well of just let them stick with the regular SSJ forms.

[@leirbag1595]

In hindsight, the fact that Blue Goku and Vegeta struggle so much against so many mortal opponents (Bluegeta was equal to Toppo's base form) means that Goku and Vegeta are actually very weak in scope of the strongest of the multiverse. But if they weren't, their godly forms would just wipe the floor with everyone. Godly ki should have been reserved to actual gods.

[@SabeNo-rh7mb]

@@leirbag1595 Exactly.

[@rhondahoward8025]

"And what is this, Super Saiyan with blue hair dye?" - Frieza, Resurrection F

[@alexhosten1508]

I was so confused that ssb wich as stronger then God right? Cuz it's God +ssj, couldn't even beat frieza for example. When in that great fight ssg was already a small challenge for Beerus. Or when UI had a hard time beating ssj2 kalifla that was so much bs

[@Hyper5104]

@@alexhosten1508 well you seem to miss the point that it had no attack power and was all defense and reaction at that point. Kefla literally tells goku he was tickling her compared to earlier.

[@magicalnewsmaneditsbumpers4374]

Biggest annoyance for me was seeing vegeta’s sacrifice (a heartfelt ending of his character arc) do JACK SHIT against Buu. Kinda ruins the moment for me, it’s as if I ran in front of a speeding car to push a kid out of the way, only for ANOTHER car to hit him.

[@marxist-leninist-protagonist]

that would be funny ngl 💀

[@kugelblitz-zx9un]

@@marxist-leninist-protagonist you're so evil! 💀

[@chillhour6155]

That was where the series ended for me and I just stopped watching

[@ruffalo1643]

Yusuke, is that you?

[@diegoantoniofrias9309]

​@Palantiri Toriyama even once said "I was thinking of kill him on Namek but I didn't expect that someone like him will became so popular"

[@OtioseFanatic]

"Its ok to like something while acknowledging its shitty writing" God damn, literally every fandom needs to understand that.

[@slipgate5293]

SHiity Writing? Under who's authority?

[@LJ-hk4tv]

@@slipgate5293 The fundamentals of storytelling.

[@slipgate5293]

@@LJ-hk4tv No such thing, Rules were meant to be broken

[@edwardtimothy3581]

Agree😂. Im a one piece fan, and our fandom think that we have the best fight scene

[@LJ-hk4tv]

@@slipgate5293 If you break them like Hunter X Hunter, absolutely. If you break them like RWBY, hell no.

[@Joemanliest]

And this is why farmer with a shotgun should be in dragon Ball fighters

[@something591]

Agreed.

[@kukii86]

human.... huuuuuumaaan :D

[@mggames2563]

No any expert can be taken out when they are caught off guard so please try again

[@jayjay86443]

@Lorenz of Alabia Raditz was such wasted potential, he deserved more than merely 5 minutes of life.

[@blueberryblues5644]

Rexxi there it is. I was confused, screaming as I scratched my eyes out in a red haze. As my ocular nerves tangled around my gnarled fingers, I saw these words. I felt these words. The light in the darkness.

[@android1617]

If Toriyama were to play Skyrim, he'd be the guy who uses glitches to max out his stats at like level 10 only to realise he's somewhat ruined the game at the expense of getting a brief power hard on.

[@knavenformed9436]

Android 16 Skyrim pretty much is a brief power hard on

[@Phantom-Neon]

He'd become one punch man

[@zoidsfan12]

Did I just read someone referencing the ogmar infinium glitch. Holy hell, I haven't played that maxed bretin in years, you could get to level 83 and one half with the method. Didn't really ruin my game, though I did have more fun roleplaying a kleptomaniac argonian I leveled after they patched the glitch(prestiged pickpocketing and maxed it again, chest was so full of stolen loot it took 5 minutes to scroll through).

[@DeltaMetroid1]

Im pretty sure he'd forget about his jump button.

[@andrewgarfield9898]

Why weren’t you wished back?

[@Oakshield2]

Freeza was the one who broke the Power level thing for me in the first place. Having Vegeta at like 25k when he arrives in Namek and the saga end bad guy being at 20 times that in a suppressed state was ridiculous. And then in like 8 days everyone's powers are greatly multiplied to try to bridge that super high gap just set a precedent for ridiculous power level fluctuations

[@musafawundu6718]

Retrospectively, Toriyama should never have created power levels and never have claimed that so so and so being is the strongest being in the universe, only to be eclipsed only a page later by another being. Tactics, technique, and team work should have been the chief basis via which villains are overcome in fights, not just raw power levels. No destruction of moons and planets by any being or even a huge city, without that being dying and probably even being obliterated in doing so... Roshi could have cast a shadow like technique to snap Goku out of the spell by the moon for example. Dragon Ball was popular even without power levels, it would still have remained popular and more 'logical' in Dragon Ball Z without power levels and without planet destroying beings who don't get destroyed while destroying planets. Raditz coming to Earth could have used his ki to sense the strength of Piccolo and Goku without needing a scanner. Was it necessary to establish through power levels that Nappa and Vegeta were stronger than Raditz, did it even matter that they were stronger? It could have have been left to readers to be their own judges of that...

[@allthingsanime7413]

@@musafawundu6718 then everyone would complain they didnt use the special beam cannon to kill everyone if raditz were stronger

[@dylanbuchanan6511]

@@musafawundu6718 Here here! If you ask me Toriyama should have done one of two things: given every race in DBZ a special type of ki different from others or given every character a different, highly unique ability ala JoJo, HxH, MHA. But no, everybody gets a different number. THATS IT.

[@sbevexlr848]

It ain't ridiculous that freiza is strong though

[@NexusGaming857]

@@sbevexlr848 No one said he isn't strong. I say screw power levels, they have no place anywhere and they don't mean anything. If you want to give me numbers, give me this: How much can Goku lift? How fact can he go without Instant Transmission? What's the most amount of damage that he has eaten without death? What kind of measurements are you using? Stuff like that.

[@TheAzulmagia]

I can't wait for Gohan to go White-haired Colombian Edgelord 2. *Edit:* Goddammit, Toriyama, I wasn't serious.

[@juanpablorobayo3437]

BlueMageDanny I’m Colombian. That made me laugh really hard XD

[@zebrom7994]

GOHAN BLANCO UNLOCKS ULTRA INSTINCT AGAINST EL PADRE GRANDE

[@Zeno11Salazar]

Super syaian cumbia dance.

[@thebeantownsweepers4209]

☝💀

[@Felipe-sh4ub]

I'm colombian as well and this shit had me dying😂

[@thabokgwele5268]

"It's OK to like something, but acknowledge its shitty writing" Couldn't agree more.

[@airwaves9611]

The whole point of the tournament of power was to do away with power levels and make it so anyone can win if they fight creatively and skilfully. And then they totally undermine that by making it about Goku and Jiren being stupidly powerful that nobody can keep up.

[@JOfJaZ]

And you can tell they were DEPSERATE to try and not do what people expected. Like, yeah, 17 won but it feels super obvious that it’s a “yeah! Bet you didn’t think of that!”

[@greenman394]

Sanobearon Because the the tournament of power couldn’t just be a battle for survival, it has to be one of ideals and apparently no universe has better ideals than universe 7.

[@francescolombardi3438]

they're not flying they're just "jumping good"

[@a.c.slater7989]

@@greenman394 There was only U6 and the Pride troopers everyone else was just filler for the heavy hitters

[@bulletmonkey9110]

Francesco Lombardi they’re just falling with style

[@finnish_hunter]

PlaqueOfGripes actually foresaw Gohans stupid beast form years before it was even real.

[@misterbadguy7325]

Plague was referencing a preexisting meme. Back during the Tournament of Power, people were making fun of Gohan fans who claimed he would unlock a new form and become the strongest fighter of all, by making up a form called "Gohan Blanco", which is Gohan with white hair. (It's "blanco" because South American DBZ fans are particularly crazy about this.)

[@kingvonafterdark]

​@@misterbadguy7325dont forget about el hermano de jiren

[@walternunez4118]

I've always felt so frustrated with how they treated Piccolo. In the original Dragonball, he could stretch his limbs, change size, he could fire energy from more than just his hands, telepathy, and he had a different perception of Ki; where most characters would focus on large, intimidating attacks, his philosophy was to focus everything on a single point, which made his signature attack terrifying because it was essentially unblockable. And he just peaked. It all went spiraling down after it; he went from menacing demon king to Goku's sidekick, to a babysitter, to almost not existing. I stopped watching Dragonball ages ago, but I sometimes return for a small glance at my favorite moments of him being an absolute badass.

[@opgamers6491]

Totally agreed piccolo was at his best when dragon ball was at his best. Original DB and Saiyan/freeza/androids/cell sagas is where piccolo was the most badass and coolest character my god allways admired how fcking badass he was and what development he had his character arc is arguably the best only vegeta comes close. From buu to super is when they stopped having him as a main character the show itself was going downhill from there sad really how it become too centered to goku and vegeta but im sure peoples will get fed up with the same characters every arc and with the same unoriginal storys and oh boy it will hit toriyama like a truck.

[@LordMalice6d9]

@@opgamers6491 Piccolo stopped being useful halfway through the Cell saga. He got bodied by stupid, idiotic little Cell jrs. Despite the fact he trained for a year in one day in the Room of Spirit and Time. The Cell saga turned to shit halfway through. Plagueofgripes explains this on another video.

[@apureintellectual1959]

Same

[@kingp260]

@@LordMalice6d9 To be fair, even Goku got bodied by Cell Juniors, they were only slightly weaker than Cell himself.

[@LordMalice6d9]

@@kingp260 The 2nd half of the Cell saga is just plain stupid and moronic! It was really when DBZ jumped the shark and the only reason why anyone puts it on a pedestal is because Gohan beats Cell. You mean to tell me Cell can crap out not just 1 but 7 little Cell jrs. that are all almost as strong as Cell is, yet his power level doesn't go down at all?? That's stupid!

[@beni-cy4gx]

Even though the show says you can't depend on power levels alone litteraly almost every fight is won by the person with the higher power level

[@Jdudec367]

but that doesn't mean skill isn't important there wins weren't so straight forward against the ginyu force mainly captain ginyu or vegeta and even buu

[@sbevexlr848]

"slow and steady wins the race" Whis

[@sr.favopossodeixarvaziosim4595]

Yeah its especially weird because a big point of the anime from Raditz to Freeza is that power levels are indeed bullshit. In fact, power levels are meant to be bullshit. All those arrogant ass aliens going around with their silly scooters and power levels, not an ounce of real martial arts skill on sight. Your position is a function of your power level. Earth changed the balance, because even through terrans have weak ki, they also have things like ki suppression and concentrating enough ki to fire an attack stronger than your own power level. Raditz learns that the hard way when he takes a Makankosapo to the chest.

[@MrAuthor3DS]

"Strength isn't the only thing that matters!" ...We're holding you on that, Goku. _Moreso than before._

[@Sorry_2026]

@@sr.favopossodeixarvaziosim4595 Not Terrans/Humans but Saiyans/Half Saiyans.

Android 17: °Constantly fights with SSJ Gohan and Trunks (as well as the other Z fighters and the military) for a decade and a half° °Is weaker than post-tournament Trunks° Also Android 17: °Protects an island from poachers and hunters for less than a decade° °Has the same power as post-Zamas SSJ Blue Goku° Jeez

[@coolbeans3752]

Its not like they do that every day. Plus for training to be effective, you'd have to be pushed to and past your limits. In the Saga he's swatting them like flies, it's like Frieza sure he's killed millions and shattered entire planets. But, he did it with a thlick of his finger. Because of overconfidence and pride. Leads to arrogance and leniency. They, dominated the planet until Trunks got stronger and defeated them.

[@coolbeans3752]

@Ignatius David Partogi Because power levels are bullshit at this point, unless your a sayain, you're trash.

[@sinsoftheswamp8346]

@@coolbeans3752 if you push your body past its limits you destroy it. When you work out you don't do your maximum always because that would be shit training and youd ruin your body

[@Jdudec367]

what do you mean weaker then post tournament trunks?

[@Jdudec367]

Ignatius David Partogi easy roshi someone who was clearly much weaker did it

[@Legs_]

The only interesting dynamic the power level thing had imo was the fact not everyone could read power levels naturally. The namek arc I like because the scouters get destroyed which leads to a fun cat and mouse game as Frieza and his men outnumber and outgun the heroes, but can't effectively track people without a scouter. So heroes can't openly fight, but can sense incoming threats and use stealth to avoid confrontation. Always thought it was a pretty clever aspect of the namek saga.

[@LordMalice6d9]

That's one reason why a lot of fans still liked Dragonball and z up to that point. After the Namek and Freeza arc stuff was over was when DBZ increasingly lacked any creative or clever writing. It all just became about power creep and plot devices making the newer threats sinmply "stronger". An old man creates a couple of cyborgs 10x stronger than evil galactic tyrant guy because... Reasons?

[@FizzyCape]

That’s part of why namek saga was the peak of the series imo.

[@LordMalice6d9]

@@FizzyCape It certainly had the best plot and story of the Z portion of the series. Cell is just overrated and Buu was a dumb parody of the series.

[@okagron]

I always found that to be pretty stupid. So Frieza, with his speed, can't easily scour the planet for the dragon balls or any enemy? That's just stupid.

[@dylanbuchanan6511]

I agree that early Namek was a fun cat and mouse game. The best parts of a story are usually when the heroes are at their lowest point and are on the edge of defeat, just barely scraping by. It’s not just apart of the Namek saga but most DBZ arcs. Good build up where we get a strong sense of impending danger and mystery about our new opponents before halfway through Goku or someone else just starts punching the bad guy. Real waste

[@chayoto]

Liked your non-canonical explanation of ki and intend to stick to it.

[@marlom7882]

I … I thought it was canon just not explained very well in the story

[@chrisoconnor7894]

@@marlom7882 Maybe, who knows? Toriyama will never explain it.

[@tomtheconqerur]

@@chrisoconnor7894 remember Toriyamaos the same guy that forgotten the hair color of Android 18

[@Trizic_]

@@tomtheconqerur WAIT REALLY!?

[@tomtheconqerur]

@@Trizic_ yes

[@TheActMan]

This is easily one of the best Dragonball videos I've ever watched. I love the series, yet it's totally apparent that Z and beyond have huge flaws in logic in writing that Toriyama has never really bothered to address within the Dragonball universe. I've been coming back to this video every now and then for the last year. It's amazing and I want to see more!!!

[@tuber420]

It's one of the most dumb and retarded videos you mean. Half of the shit he's saying doesn't make sense.

[@fizzy-matrix4400]

@@tuber420 How?

[@ovenmittboy3671]

What's up guys this is the act man here

[@KirbyGotenksabsorbed]

@@tuber420 I only watched a bit over half the video before I lost interest, but I agree. He makes a lot of poor comparisons throughout the video to try to make a point, and he occasionally takes certain things out of out context and undersells them (like Gohan trying to explain ki/flying to Videl). Also randomly tries to imply that DBZ doesn't look good based off of some cherrypicked shots (as opposed to Super which consistently has an ugly art style?).

[@welcometoreality437]

@@KirbyGotenksabsorbed Bro, dragonball such a bad anime. Yes, it's entertaining, but doesn't have any good attributes. After all, Dragonball and others are ment for teenagers, authors just need epic flashy fights then to call it a day. Though they should've ended at freezer arc, it just went straight down from there. Even Toriyama had gotten tired from dragon ball but editor kept pushing him so he just made up the rest as he went on the story.

[@sleepyespurr2922]

I miss Launch.

[@youare5907]

What could you possibly miss about her? She had one gag and it got old real quick.

[@sleepyespurr2922]

Saul Diaz I dunno. I liked her more than I did Bulma back then.

[@LordZepie]

I prefer dinner.

[@papichlow]

I'm of a breakfast kinda guy

[@Ogihci2]

Just wait for the next ship.

[@weebandgaminginc.7593]

To be honest, it may have took me a bit, but I started to notice that the fights are the same when beerus and champa started throwing hands. Goku and vegeta were gawking like this is the coolest thing ever, and I looked at it like “THATS LITERALLY HOW YOU ALWAYS FIGHT!!! THEY’RE EVEN MOVING AT THE SAME SPEED”

[@weebandgaminginc.7593]

@Ker yeah. The fact that they don’t even need stray ki blasts or shockwaves to destroy the ground is impressive, but if I’m supposed to be impressed by the speed, power or skill, then they can at least move too fast to follow, or have one of those illusions of speed like in vegeto’s fight with majin buu.

[@ouchiegiverjr]

And they are “Gods”

[@영환김-f9x]

i’m pretty sure the “fight” was just them staring intensly at each other while storms happened nearby. they were having a stand battle at that point

[@weebandgaminginc.7593]

@@영환김-f9x yeah. That’s pretty much expected of DBZ and super at this point

[@danielvandeputte7588]

The problem with power levels can be easily identified in a simple in universe question "Why was Raditz stronger than Goku?". Raditz was penned as strong for no reason, the only real difference is being older. He has done his share of fighting for sure, but his sloppy fighting style indicated no real serious training, as most sayin tactics at the time were just being stronger then the other guy and going ape if you really wanted to do some damage. But not only is he too much for goku he's too much for goku AND piccolo. But it even becomes more baffling when Nappa grows 6 Saibamen, which are stated to be in the ballpark of Raditz power, and the back up can defeat them after a training session or two on the look out? What?

[@smaragdchaos]

Well, Raditz told Goku that Goku didn't have necessary training to challenge him when he met him. His words were "And also, please... don't make the mistake of trying to fight me. Even if you had the power to challenge me, you haven't a fraction of the necessary training", proving that Raditz had to train. The important thing to keep in mind with Raditz is that unlike Goku, Raditz is a warrior and an enterpreneuristic at that, meanwhile Goku is a martial artist who just fights for fun most of the time. Raditz's power is justified, because unlike Goku, he spent his whole life on the battlefield alongside Vegeta and Nappa, conquering worlds and selling them to aliens. The more a Saiya-jin fights, the more powerful he becomes, meanwhile Goku's birth was low and he had to fight only low lifes for the most part, so his growth has been awful until that point. The thing with Saibaimen and the Z fighters growing so powerful is really confusing though. Saibaimen are confusing simply because it makes you wonder how did Raditz train his whole life, since Saibaimen are suggested to be the training dummies so to speak (at least in Bardock's special episode), and Raditz is only equal to them in his adulthood, and as for Z fighters being so strong - well, Goku underwent Mr. Popos training, which took him 3 years and he powered up rather marginally if you think about it, meanwhile the rest of the Z fighters spent 1 year with Kami and Mr. Popo and their powers went up almost 10x in most cases. Piccolo and Gohan didn't even have the luxury of training in specialized environment such as the Kami's temple and had to do with wilderness for 6 months, yet their power increase was also ridiculously huge. Only Goku's training made some sense since he was training in an environment with 10x greater gravity.

[@Michaelbrown-xi3mr]

@@smaragdchaos You know Kami trained Goku to better fight with his KI and reduce unnecessary movements while fighting and dodging. This is only explained once. Goku never Questions it either he just goes along with it. Krillin, Tien, Yamcha and Chaozu are already on this level when beginning training for the Saiyans so he decides to Fokus on Raising their Power Level. It's never explained and should be but it's not for some reason (Toriyama Syndrome). Super still sucks.

[@smaragdchaos]

@@Michaelbrown-xi3mr Neither Kuririn, Tenshinhan, Yamucha and Chaozu were on Goku's level at the beginning of their training. If we go by the official power levels, Goku when he started his training with Kami was at the power level of 260. At the beginning of DBZ, Tenshinhan was sitting at a power level of 250, Yamucha was 177, Kuririn was 206 and Chaozu was weaker than all of them, and neither of them had gone through Mr. Popo's movement training prior to that either.

[@Michaelbrown-xi3mr]

​@@smaragdchaos No but maybe they kept training? They could have done that during the timeskip from DB to DBZ. I don't try to Debunk you or the video. Again the problem is we don't know what happend. Toriyama explains extremely little and forget things all the time and had to rewrite history from Z to Super to avoid GT going Marvel and DCs Multiverse Route. Vegito for example. The 1 thing Potara had over the dance was time limit and they got rid of it because they wrote themselves into a corner with immortal Zamasu and Goku Black. It took Zeno to erease Future Trunks story only to replace it with a identical timeline. So nothing lost nothing gained besides saving this timeline and Goku and Vegeta got stronger. That's it. There are alot of mistakes and nitpics but as long as you can enjoy it it should not Ruin it for someone right? In the end since Toriyama explains nothing fans can make head canons that may come true who knows.

[@smaragdchaos]

@@Michaelbrown-xi3mr *No but maybe they kept training? They could have done that during the timeskip from DB to DBZ.* You mean Mr. Popo’s movement training? Impossible. Kuririn was shocked to hear they’re getting trained by Kami and Mr. Popo from Yajirobe. If he and the others had undergone this training before, it shouldn’t be such a major shock for them. *I don't try to Debunk you or the video. Again the problem is we don't know what happend.* Well duh, that’s why I said that part is very confusing since no explanation has been provided to us. *Toriyama explains extremely little and forget things all the time and had to rewrite history from Z to Super to avoid GT going Marvel and DCs Multiverse Route.* DBGT is an alternate timeline compared to Super, and OG DBZ could be considered one as well quite honestly. *Vegito for example. The 1 thing Potara had over the dance was time limit and they got rid of it because they wrote themselves into a corner with immortal Zamasu and Goku Black.* Well, not really. There were many ways to go around that problem: 1. Instead of using Vegetto, they could’ve used Gogeta 2. They could’ve changed the time limit bullshit and apply it only to Universe 10 potaras and try to justify it with some ambiguous reasoning such as „Mortals using potara are only allowed to fuse for an hour in the universe 10 due to an incident long time ago where the power of potara has been misused.“ - With that, Goku and Vegeta could’ve fused through U10 potara earrings with no hassle, because Vegeta would have a much easier time fusing for just an hour rather than an eternity. 3. They could’ve simply stayed permanently fused and used the Dragon Balls to unfuse later on, or just use Majin Buu. I don’t really get the point of Vegetto anyways since he never gets any wins in the series, so might as well let him go away with killing Fused Zamasu. *It took Zeno to erease Future Trunks story only to replace it with a identical timeline. So nothing lost nothing gained besides saving this timeline and Goku and Vegeta got stronger. That's it.* Frankly, erasing that entire universe wouldn’t even be necessary had they actually obliterated Zamasu. Zamasu’s immortality isn’t a true immortality and completely disintegrating would mean his death. It’s a joke writing. But then again, we don’t really know how much of it belongs to Akira Toriyama since he doesn’t actively work on DBS, he only provides basic plot outlines and the anime staff/Toyotaro change it at will. *There are alot of mistakes and nitpics but as long as you can enjoy it it should not Ruin it for someone right? In the end since Toriyama explains nothing fans can make head canons that may come true who knows.* The DBZ mistakes are fine, since they don’t impede with the story drastically. No such luck with Dragon Ball Super and constant rewriting of already established things.

[@thelarryestofhall1008]

So basically what you're suggesting is that Dragon ball fights should be based on the tactics and strategy, rather than simple power scaling? I can agree with that. Because What's the point of them training and creating new moves if they never end up working anyway? Hell in martial arts, strength is more than just the physical. It's about how you effectively use the physical to your advantage, finding your opponents weak points, defending your own weaknesses, and landing actually effective blows on your opponent, which hasnt been seen in dragon ball in a long while.

[@houseofaction]

thats not actually how martial arts work. Bruce Lee specifically had his students train there bodies because physical strength is one of the most important factors. strategy comes in handy when there is not a huge margin of difference in the physical strength of each person but if there was a difference large enough than strategy would be useless

[@alonelyperson6031]

@@houseofaction Yeah but if all you do is throw punches with no TECHNIQUES behind them. (Not special moves like Kamekameha or "Hakai" but actual way to punch some one to deals damage the most effective way) then your strength is wasted.

[@CombatSportsNerd]

@@alonelyperson6031 exactly If this wasn't true Bruce Lee wouldn't have created Jeet Kune Do and just told everyone power>>>>>>>>everything

[@bonelesschickennuggets1868]

TheLarryestOf Hall If i had the chance of rewriting DBZ, it would be all about martial arts, a good balance between power and strategic combat, and Goku would be a human Son Wukong, his only transformation would be SS, but with the look of phase 4, I really liked that aesthetic for him.

[@nullpoint3346]

What about protecting fake weak spots to fool your opponent into attacking them so you call throw a hard counter? (I'm guessing that counts as a mental conflict. There's a tangential continuation to that point, but I'm done writing here.)

[@Fridge_Duck]

This is why I liked Hit when he was first introduced. "Oh, cool, he has a unique power that lets him skip time." When Goku started the fight, I was hopeful. But as cool as it was visually to see Goku go Kaio-Ken x 20, and as good of a job Sean Schemmel did on his voice acting, it was stupid from a narrative perspective. Just like the super duper baconator Kamehameha, he just got such a big number that he IGNORED TIME ITSELF. Really? Fucking really?

[@ultimateme3049]

omg, i loved Hit so much, and it makes me mad whenever everyone ignores him, like seriously, Hit is literally a Jojo character inside db, he's literally the only antagonist that never uses generic ki blasts and who's fighting style is based on martial arts and pressure points.

[@CallMeAWeeb]

Hit is just in the wrong anime. He'd be a threat anywhere else.

[@Legacy0901]

For an even earlier example on how power levels ruin anything interesting, you can just look at Burter from the Ginyu Force. He's introduced with his gimmick of 'I'm the fastest being in the universe' yet his speed gets outclassed by Goku on his arrival to Namek purely because Goku's power level is higher, despite the fact that as far we see Goku did not do ANY training to get faster. If you only lift weights for a month, you are not suddenly going to be able to compete in the 100 yard dash. Power levels have potential to be an interesting storytelling device, but the way that DBZ implements them is so lazy that it actually hurts the material.

[@ZERARCHIVE2023]

Hit : Nah, i give up, there's no way my time skip can beat your PLOT ARMOR.

[@laziwastaken]

Skip time... KINGU CRIMSON

[@windmonkey95]

"Can white haired colombian edgelord Gohan defeat this new threat?" Ohhh if only you knew how right you'd be when you said that.

[@Omarthedemigod]

OMG you’re right lmao

[@pinstripecool34]

God that comment aged like a fine wine.

[@ouchiegiverjr]

Wait he actually has white hair???

[@jesusramirezromo2037]

​@@ouchiegiverjrThe new transformation in DBS Superhero, He gains a new BS transformation that's just SSJ2 but with white hair

[@brookbrook2959]

Gohan Blanco has existed for a while in db af so that's probably where he got that from

[@rosePetrichor]

I feel like the problem you are describing is exactly why One Punch Man works as a parody.

[@DSan-kl2yc]

It's debatable.whether one punch even is a parody. Too much of the shown is played straight. It'd be like saying Superman is a parody. It does have a lot of comedy but so do a lot of shounen battle.manga especially at the start. Most of the rest of it is fairly straightforward Saitamas.character does fit the mold.of parody. But the world around him is built like a normal show .and his own desires at times is normal..wanting to be a hero. And wanting a good fight ect. A lot of it is played straight. His emotion at helping the heroes by making himself.a bad guy and not taking credit for example. Whether that makes it a good parody or a straight show with a twist is where it gets grey.

[@MajorLawliet]

Obviously it's played straight. Everyone else is not Saitama living in a world where stuff is a joke, he is. For the same reason everyone is drawn detailed and even acting serious in a certain range... then there's saitama completely disregarding all that while being a half assed drawing.

[@TheAssirra]

@@DSan-kl2yc played straight? You have a superhero that rides a bike.

[@DSan-kl2yc]

there are at least two martial arts anime where someone fights with a bike. Yugioh has cards on bikes. That doens't mean its a parody.

[@TheAssirra]

Come on now, Your really going to tell me that a hero where his only ability is that he can ride a bike is playing it straight? One punch is a hilarious parody on the superhero archetype cause it turns everything upside down and utterly ridiculous.

[@TotallyNotMark]

I don't think I've ever laughed soo much at a Dragon Ball video. That's including Dragon Ball Z Abridged. That double baconator delux line slayed me. Excellent and extremely entertaining video man.

[@Basheerrko]

Totally Not Mark indeed.

[@stnrodriguez]

I want someone to animate it..........

[@weggygaygay9940]

eh, it was funny but DBZA is a lot funnier, don’t understand how you got that. Humour is subjective I guess

[@ddo1phin250]

same also love your vids

[@loveexposure3351]

@@weggygaygay9940 Just shut the fuck up

[@subwaysurfer5378]

Vegeta trains for 3 years couldn't defeat Android 18. Trains for 1 year and can dominate Semi Perfect Cell. Android 17 only protects an island and gets a huge power boost. The one in the future conquered the world and is still at the same level. And the Androids were conquering for 2 decades. Frieza was weaker than Super Saiyan but trains for 4 months and power is comparable to SSB

[@durant8006]

lmao so true

[@88Ulloa]

Freeza's arc's power boosts are all fucked up. Goku starts the arc almost three times weaker than Vegeta, trains for a month and gets more than 10 times stronger than before, jumping from about 8.000 to 90.000 and getting nearly three times stronger than Vegeta when he arrives at Namek. Vegeta starts the arc weaker than Dodoria with a power level close to 18.000. Three or four Zenkai boosts later and he got stronger than third form Freeza, with more than 1.500.000. The first two Zenkai boosts were reasonable, IMO. He jumped from slightly stronger than Zarbon to a bit stronger than transformed Zarbon, for example (something like jumping from 24.000 to 30.000). But the last ones were pretty insane. Gohan and Krillin got about 10 times stronger than at the start of the arc when the old Namekian "unleashed their potential". Piccolo started the arc weaker than Nappa with something around 3.000 of power level, and after absorbing Neil, got stronger than second form Freeza with more than 1.000.000. I wonder why didn't Neil absorb the next one or two strongest Namekians and kicked Freeza's ass himself.

[@daemonsolochannel2991]

True😂 Imao 🤡😆

[@InfernosReaper]

@@88Ulloa Goku did technically get a boost from fighting Vegeta in the first place just on experience(and ignoring the stupid Doomsday knock-off power boost crap) and there was a 100x gravity thing involved. Considering the boost he got from 10x, that's all actually plausible It's everything what everyone else did and what happens to Goku after he lands that makes no sense. --Vegeta gets boosts only from getting beat down instead of growing from his fight and always only gets just strong enough to beat the last person that kicked his ass, at least until Frieza. He's got no less than 3 to his credit. --Gohan apparently got *no* boost from his experience with Vegeta on earth, because he seemed to be around Krillin's capabilities. --Krillin and Gohan get "awakened potential" power boosts that in no way accurately match up to what their power potential is because they both get stronger later, not that it matters because they don't really beat anyone for the rest of the arc. --While being Ginyu Force level at best(using that anime filler fight as a reference), Piccolo fuses with a guy who's nowhere near strong enough to beat 1rst form Frieza and ends up being able to go toe to toe with 2nd form. If that was a thing his people could just do, you'd think it'd have been done even if it was "forbidden" because the fate of their entire people rested on not getting genocided. --Goku just gets *one* power boost from getting beat down and becomes considerably *stronger* than Vegeta, even though logically they should be around the same power, because Vegeta's beatdown against the Ginyu's lead to him matching Goku and then Vegeta got another near-death boost again to match the one Goku got. It's all so dumb...

[@88Ulloa]

@@InfernosReaper I still think Goku's power boost was unreasonable. He got 10 times stronger in a month. I mean... he should be stronger, but 10 times stronger in a month? That's nuts. Vegeta was 3 times stronger than Goku, got much stronger with multiple Zenkai boosts at the start of the arc, and Goku still arrives 3 times stronger than him? And that's not to mention the completely idiotic Kaioken x50, considering one month before he was struggling to use a quadruple Kaioken. Storywise, IMO, Goku should've been with nearly the same power level as Vegeta when he arrived at Namek, but have an edge over him, Recoome, Botter and Jeice with the Kaioken, for example. That would make the story as interesting, if not more, because the Kaioken has a considerable drawback. But... we know the fetiche Toriyama has for demonstrations of power. Fuck the story, fuck logic. All that matters is Goku being bad ass and easily subjugating supposedly overpowered enemies. The scene of Botter not even seeing Goku move around must've been more important than good writing.

[@UberFreeza]

Power levels are stupid, agreed. It's actually a reason I prefer some of the games over the show; anyone could reasonably fight anyone else with a realistic chance of winning. I remember playing Ultimate Tenkaichi and memorizing the attack patterns of high-level CPUs so that I could win. To me it just shows that any fighter, regardless of power level, can actually win a battle with a proper fighting strategy. Especially since they're not bound by power levels at all: you can make a saibaman demolish Cell if you really want to.

[@moebiusstarwatcher]

I see. I'm glad you're not a writer. Indeed it would be a problem if Krillin was as strong as Beerus

[@slinkyslink5161]

Well the whole thing about power level is that it's supposed to be a measure of combat effectiveness. It's not a completely arbitrary number. If someone spends a week in a high gravity chamber training their power level doesn't rise for no reason, it's because that person's body became stronger as well as them being more in control of their body and energy.

[@moebiusstarwatcher]

@@slinkyslink5161 it shouldn't be too easy either. For example in the arc Cell vegeta he trained for 3 in the room of spirit and time and yet he was still not strong enough to defeat Cell. It's that we blame DBS. To fall into ease

[@Talisguy]

​@@moebiusstarwatcher It's also a problem if the hero is the only one who can actually accomplish anything, no matter what the supporting cast tries. It really defuses the tension of any situation where the outmatched supporting cast try various clever tactics or make desperate last stands when the work routinely just has everyone's best shots completely fail to work, and the bad guys are able to power through everything the cast throws at them until the hero shows up. Maybe you can mine tension out of situations where the supporting cast are trying to accomplish something non-combat related in hostile territory full of enemies who are much stronger than they are, like collecting the Dragon Balls on Namek, because they might actually succeed at that and strategy can still be used to *avoid* or *escape* fights, but if they have no choice but to fight and you already know that they won't accomplish anything no matter what they do, there's no suspense. The answer to "can they succeed in the face of overwhelming odds?" is always "no." Even if there's no damn reason why what they tried wouldn't have worked.

[@roads7018]

So to kill goku, you just need to cook him dinner then shoot him in the back of the head. No wonder he never loses.

[@PANICBLADE]

And why he's so afraid of his wife...

[@superapm9620]

Goku almost always loses....

[@eggmug562]

Nah man just give him the plague

[@ghostbeats3214]

Oni Bank nope because all of a sudden He’s been secretly training to counter that and no one knew all this time

[@jarlbalgruuf2415]

Jokes aside, Goku is bullet proof, ki or no ki

[@billvolk4236]

28:11 We know who's going to be the next bad man after Jiren. EL HERMANO

[@davidhong1934]

El grande padre

[@vividlantern8854]

Cell Dorado

[@jghifiversveiws8729]

Wtf

[@pepz8505]

@@vividlantern8854 Angry Watermelon

[@billvolk4236]

@@jghifiversveiws8729 It's The Spanish Lore, fanfics (but mostly parodies of fanfics) from Latin America where Gohan does everything the teenage edgelords wish he would do.

[@AlbionLegend]

This is the entire reason Super Saiyan Blue is nothing more than a dull aesthetic change to sell merchandise. When Goku first turned SSJ3 he nearly caused natural disasters with the amount of power he was outputting. Super Saiyan Blue...gives you blue hair. No new techniques, no chance to show its power since all the bad guys are now at the same level or higher. Utterly pointless.

[@ultraatari9298]

Stuart J.A. And even blue has already been undone as obsolete by ultra instinct or from what I hear Vegeta couples blue with ssj2 form and this isn't even paced. like in the dragonball universe it took three to four years for Goku and Vegeta to reach a level beyond super saiyan. Than it took Goku another six or seven while dead and having nothing better to do than train all day to go ssj3 and ssj3 wasn't even viable as it was too exhausting. But in super, Goku feels god ki and suddenly in months goes Blue. Vegeta never even goes god just somehow learns it. The show even admits Goku doesn't learn ultra instinct it just turns on for plot device. And ofcourse Vegeta can't learn it because Vegeta isn't the main character. Akira doesn't even hide it anymore than he's not trying

[@psv2]

But it's BLUE now! And sometimes RED! Don't you see?! Maybe your non-god eyes need to transcend their limitations!

[@alexanderthered5603]

@@ultraatari9298 This is a silly comment. I say this because there are in-universe reasons for those things. He turns blue without any epic show because the transformation is about ki control. He taps into UI because of all the training he had with Whis and Vegeta, his experience with Ki control, and his body essentially fighting for survival. Vegeta can't tap into it because he's still too wound up, he still overthink too much, which is in line with his character. Complain about it all, sure, but don't say Toriyama isn't trying.

[@TheGuyWhoIsSitting]

From what I understand, Super Sayain was literally created to save time from having to ink in Goku's hair. Then if I'm not mistaken, people later compared "Super Sayains" to the Aryan Race... or whatever Hitler's Blond Hair Blue Eyed super people were called. They made a joke about it in one of the movies or TV specials where Hitler comes back to life and sees Super Sayain kid Trunks and Goten and comments about their appearance (aka a Joke, but no, it's really them acknowledging Toriyama's secret nazi beliefs). Super Sayain 3 Toriyama literally thought was Super Sayain 2 because he couldn't remember what that was, and I'm going to guess Super Sayain God and Super Sayain Blue were made to get rid of the Hitler "conspiracy" because that way you can still not ink the hair, and you can colorize it with blue to show how dumb people are to assume that Super Sayains were made because Toriyama secretly thought Hitler had the right idea or something. Frankly the entire idea of power levels is what it is, lazy writing. It's a quick and easy way to see 2>1 thus 2 is the winner because 2 is twice as strong as 1, but 4 is twice as strong as 2 and blah blah blah. I've heard other people say Z was written the way it was because Toriyama wanted to end the series and didn't want to continue writing after Dragon Ball's fight with Piccolo, but naturally when something is popular you have to continue doing it and thus that's where we are now. Honestly if you really think about most of what happened in Z, it gets more and more ridiculous as it goes on. I don't know for sure because frankly I don't care that much. I liked the Battle of the Gods movie because I thought it was funny and harked back to the way Dragon Ball itself was written, which upon revisiting, I thought was a much better series than it was when Toonami finally decided to start airing Dragon Ball after airing a good chunk of Z. I don't really see how it's different than other shows like Power Rangers (or Super Sentai) or whatever where there's a villain or problem target of the week that needs to be taken care of. When you look at every story in the most basic form there's no reason for it to exist or be developed. Point A to Point B can be reached from any other arbitrary starting point, Toriyama could write every new chapter as "Goku powers up to Super Sayain Blue 2 Electric Buggalo and blasts the new enemy and kills him in one shot" for 10 chapters, increment said number every chapter until the final and it'd be boring. It's okay to like something you know is stupid, and as long as Toriyama can continue to feed himself and his family I don't really think he will care in the long run.

[@buckwindow]

renee because it’s about ki control and wouldn’t have as much of an outer effect of the ki is controlled

[@jcnot9712]

28:27 seeing Gohan Blanco jokes hits different now that he’s canon 😂

[@sunray959]

This reminds me of what Hajime No Ippo did different. Instead of making each fighter increasingly stronger, they made each fighter have their own unique feature. Instead of asking who’s stronger, we’re asking could the Hitman Flicker jab beat the Dempsey role or how can the peek-a-boo guard be utilized against the shotgun punches?

[@Menfhis24]

​@Andrew Gray The fighting in these two anime vastly differ but the comparison of fights won with tactics vs fights won with power is a pretty valid one. When an anime relies on tactics for fights it not only keeps the fights interesting but also puts everyone on a somewhat equal playing field. Since Dragon Ball relies so much on power it not only makes a lot of the fights feel the same (although they do still look cool) but it gives weaker characters less to do since they're no longer strong enough to keep up.

[@ntigdona7487]

every character having a unique fighting style sounds better and in theory it is, but in practice its just like power levels, but where you replace the numbers going up with tactics adavantages going up... characters gaing tactics the same way characters gain numbers, they win fights with tactics the same way they win fights with numbers and they get obout the same number of unique combos with tactics or wih numbers... how i think it should work is what naruto should be but isn't... all the characters should be relatively able to learn all of the techniques and train to relatively to the same degree both heroes and villains... the advantages and disadvantages should not come from rock beating paper or number beating number because those are at their core the same thing ... an unfair advantage to one characters... if everybody has potential access to all the same abilities and power ups, training and mastery matyers in a way it doesn't when its just numbers or rock vs cissors!

[@seankrkovich2869]

You can simply change your style to counter your counter.

[@mrmaxwell346]

@Andrew Gray buddy I understand where you're coming from but here's the thing a fight in media isn't just a couple of Meatheads throwing punches at each other. It's a story with its own narrative beats, and climaxes what dragon Ball does is makes it a proverbial number measuring contest.

[@FooeyMcgooey]

Sports manga vs. OP Martial arts manga. We get what you're saying but this is a bad example.

[@marcosbarrionuevo7792]

*You can't shoot a tank with a pistol a million times to kill it* Here... Let me introduce you to every RTS game ever made

[@MadSkull]

Metal Slug: son i am dissapoint

[@TechnicSky]

Saving Private Ryan

[@dogtime7061]

@733Rafael Is this a really dry, poorly delivered joke?

[@Golinth]

@@dogtime7061 He isnt technically incorrect. Over an ridiculously long time the armor would start to wear down at that point.

[@UnderEarthFilms]

theone102 Yes, except you would never reach that point because the tank would have destroyed you before you reach it. You can’t power through everything, otherwise this shit will get boring af.

[@JABRIEL251]

And then Goku gets a new form with a big number to fight Jiren.

[@7heartsleft]

Logical Juan I’d praise you for making the prediction, but it’s too predictable an ending to really deserve praise for guessing it.

[@rednidedni3875]

Worst Thing is, that imperfect ultra instinct was actually interesting. Goku can autododge Basically anything, and can wholly Focus on Attacks now? Cool! Oh, perfect ultra instinct is just the same but now Attacks Are strong too? Oh Hey, goku's pissed now. Shouldnt that discract him from letting that *instinct* get to work? No, He gets stronger like usual...

[@Elnegro..]

@@rednidedni3875 yeah imperfect un was badass

[@Reqqqqqs]

Carlos de Brouwer Before Ultra Instinct, Goku's attacks couldn't hurt Jiren. After Ultra Instinct, they could hurt Jiren. So yes, Ultra Instinct very much was about power level. Even at the very end with Mastered Ultra Instinct, Jiren still lands some hits on Goku, so clearly that whole perfect defense thing doesn't mean shit when fighting someone who's actually at your level.

[@loveexposure3351]

@@rednidedni3875 I actually never thought about that, great explanation

[@Milkra]

“Can white haired edgelord gohan defeat the new threat?” And they even reused cell for it too hahahahahaha

[@pikapanda577]

Tbh dragon balls biggest downfall is a lack of foresight

[@razkable]

dragonball got away with it for starting the formula....or mastering it for little kids and marketing after fist of the north star set the example and experimented as its made more for teens and young adults...the issue is with gt they wee still doing it in the mid to late 90's when better series were out there and by 2015 super started doing the same shit they did 30 years prior..smdh...evolve dragonball my god...so many series came out since the early 90's ..you can't just be trash anymore...write it better

[@enzo91821]

tbf Toriyama wanted to end the series with the Frieza arch, so it made sense to state that Frieza was the most powerful in the universe, there was nowhere else to take the series, but the fans and publishers forced him to continue the series, and it went downhill from there.

[@marvin6119]

@@enzo91821 he wants end it. but he adds a transformation that kickstarts a genre of power levels

[@dinogt8477]

@@razkable you are the idiot who thinks boruto is good naruto devolved instead of evolving

[@InfernosReaper]

@@enzo91821 The sad thing is if Goku had *stayed gone* then Goku being the rare legend and power levels could've been scaled back considerably and give the other characters a chance to be useful again. Instead, the first chance it gets, the series not only brings back Goku, but trivializes the legendary transformation by making it something any of that one race could do.

[@francescolombardi3438]

I remember when the ability to fly was prohibited unless it was with wings during the ToP. Of course, that didn't stop Goku, Jiren, and literally everyone else relevant to the conflict from "jumping good"

[@NaoyaYami]

Except when Jiren was meditating, he wasn't just "jumping good" - he was obviously flying/levitating.

[@alam71us]

That’s not flying, that falling with style

[@wisdommanari6701]

I see your samurai jack reference and I love it

[@ultraatari9298]

Ironically i think letting just anyone who knows ki be able to fly was the first cornerstone to power levels are bullshit Like there's this Dragonball game called advanced adventure where flying is a huge privilege. Comes in handy, but only a hand full of character unlocks can do it well and most are restricted to using wings or jetpacks or whatever. Hell Yajirobe never learned how to fly in Dragonball. Climbed Korin's tower, hurt Vegeta, Goku seemed excited thinking he'd help them fight the androids, managed to survive in the Goku Black timeline somehow. Yajirobe could've been a prime example of a good fighter with limitations.

[@lilchristuten7568]

Yeah that was one of the things about it that pissed me off, first time I remember the "screw the rules" fallacy taking place was when Krillin somehow saved 18 from falling out of the ring by jumping behind her to catch her and then jumping off of absolutely nothing to go back into the ring.

[@Jungy_Mungerson]

"ARRRRRRRG Super Sayan ultra deluxe 6.7- baconator edition- Kaio-ken times... 4 Googol quintillion" that's good satire

[@DSan-kl2yc]

Heh no it's not

[@amuro9624]

until u realize gurren lagan can do that seriously

[@WiiSage]

exactly and when it came to the fight of the universe it was an all or nothing fight and the series ended there

That shit is hilarious.

[@Sanjixoxo]

Mmm.. THATS GOOD SATIRE

[@Flippopotamus]

Man, we got that White Haired Columbian Egelord Gohan after all... I.E Beast Mode.

[@Mox1990]

And he fought the new strongest biggest dude who's apparently even worse than jiren and broly or something

[@Flippopotamus]

@@Mox1990 It was a giant, mindless, monster-thing... that was a call back Cell's worst looking form. Don't get me wrong, I thought Super Hero was mostly good tbh... just a little disappointed it boiled down to a fight with "Even Worse-r Cell form 2". I think pushing Goku and Vegeta away from the main story and focusing on characters like Piccolo is a smart move at this point. I liked the movie way more than new Broly and all of Super Combined. I'd like them to do more content on other characters.... but that'll never happen.

[@namelesslad5803]

I miss when characters actually have to outwit the opponents to win

[@djroscurro9859]

That's why I love Jojo.

[@danielz-v4083]

JoJo.jpg

[@razkable]

man power scaling is stupid and ruins animes...how cool would it be if the main character wasn't op from the start or even at the end...if everyone was close in power and it was strategy that got them wins?...like imagine if goku and krillin were close in power when they fought....not totally in different classes causing no tension in who wins cause we know whose better so if goku loses its bs and if he wins its predictable and boring....smdh...wow what a concept...its dragonball that created this trope for other shows to follow to get successful..cant have the side characters keep up with them..ichigo and renji cant stay even ..even 1/4 the way into the series gotta power creep ichigo up

[@AniGaAG]

A big part of this is that stories normally just aren't _meant_ to keep going forever and ever and ever. This kind of escalation is, by default, not something that has to be worked around because it normally _shouldn't even happen._ The only thing that suddenly made this a thing was a financial greed or need to write "endless" stories like that to begin with; artistically it's _complete and utter _*_bullshit!_* But corporate wants money, so _here we freakin' go._

[@primella8135]

Nguyen Dong Hung Pham nah that’s naruto with dragon ball wits aren’t even that important

[@JaxBlade]

I agree so much with this video, to me while I love DBZ I see its flaws. I mean honestly EVERY DBZ Fight is the same Rapid fire punching and kicking blast here, blast there back up, back up stare, stare maybe a flashback or internal monologue Power up, Power up CHARGE _on the next episode of Dragon Ball Z_ Me and my friends have made a game of it now because its become so predictable and honestly I havent been SUPER BLOWN AWAY by a fight in Dragon Ball in a long time. Its funny that there are series that would not exist today without DragonBall and they're able to make more engaging fights on a smaller scale. To me I miss the smaller martial arts based fights of OG Dragonball where they use legitimate skills and they were extra entertaining. To me I'll always Love DBZ but i can see a lot of its faults but on the flipside Dragon Ball because of its comedy, gag style and kung fu style fighting will always be timeless to me.

[@JaxBlade]

@Zer0dog Honestly play that game with your friends you'll see how repetitive the fights get lmao We did this at Anime Expo this year and we all had a blast xD

[@crowx5818]

@Zer0dog It is really what happens, but fanboys like you will defend toriyama's writing no matter what.

[@crowx5818]

@Zer0dog Not really "strawmen" if ive seen first hand the bs you are willling to spout in order to defend toriyama's writing.

[@crowx5818]

@Zer0dog Not to mention that its prettu hilarious to read that claim of yours when you strawmen the video claiming poor research or when you resort to your "you just have a hate boner" excuse to defend the writing of the show.

[@crowx5818]

@Zer0dog Laughable, the same argumentation you used before, and yet you have the nerve to claim im the broken record.

[@nicholasFRIJOLE123]

The funny thing about this is how Toriyama completely failed in capturing how fights and power levels worked in Journey to the West, considering he ripped off so much else from it. By chapter 7, Wukong is stronger than everyone except the Buddha himself, outclassing all the gods in heaven. Despite this, he still struggles with fighting demons throughout JttW because they end up being more of a test of wits and strategy, not just ki blasts with numbers attached to them.

[@SapiaNt0mata]

Goku is the exact opposite of Wukong and it's a shame. it pisses me off that he is inspired from Wukong and at least 80% of the time he loses in fights

[@Doc_Fun]

Because it started as a gag manga, which is Toriyama's strong suit. He's not a great writer and he's aware of this. His story was never meant to be a serious adaptation of Journey to the West, and even if it was, it wasn't a "ripoff". You can't rip off something like that, it's like calling a hero's epic a ripoff of "Gilgamesh". Once something becomes that influential it'd be harder to find things that _didn't_ "rip it off" in some way.

[@ArnulfoSalgado]

this is an open forum, there's no time limit to discussion (eat my ass with that 5 months later bullshit)

[@Akai_raion]

Journey to the West story is only the first arc. after they summon the Dragon the first time. there a lot more thing happen

[@Sayrden]

I think what really makes this annoying is that DB often gives us glimpses of more interesting tactics, which it then abandons: Goku realizes that Frieza can't sense ki and uses that against him - but only during the warm-up, when they're still feeling each other out. Piccolo very smartly traps Super Buu in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber with himself and Gotenks. But then Super Buu is so strong that he _screams open a wormhole_ to escape. DBS makes a big deal about how teamwork and strategy will be important in the ToP. That's why Goku nominates Gohan to lead the team. But literally the instant the fight starts, Goku and Vegeta ignore Gohan because "I wanna fight the strong guys". And although lots of people try clever tactics to defeat Jiren (including multiple attempts by Goku), the only thing that actually works is that UI boosts Goku's power level so he can hit Jiren really hard.

[@sketchydude8431]

Even other dragon ball stuff after barely utilizes that The Moro Arc of the Dragon Ball Super Manga had a really promising start with Moro himself Working in a way that just punching him won't do anything, since he can just sap away your power Later forcing both Goku and Vegeta (Vegeta mainly) to learn techniques since power alone wouldn't win I like that But of course it didn't stay Vegeta had spirit fission, but it was mostly about punching again And Goku was more or less the same, just with a Gundam Goku once And Moro degraded to a cell ripoff, all about that super duper power Granted, it did become interesting with him becoming overwhelmed by angel power, and merging with earth But once again, it's the same bigger number crap

[@sheenyhive]

@@sketchydude8431 The series has reached a point where it desperately needs a hard reset of some kind (new cast/new power system/change of genre/DC style reboot/whatever), hell just depower the saiyans or something Toriyama/Toei's obsession with super strong reality bending forces (that never blow up more than a couple mountains because plot) and nostalgia bait has turned the series into a zombified corpse that refuses to die like it's the simpsons.

[@thelivingglitch307]

The writing is improvised through and through, so I imagine these things happen just to set up for the same end goal of surprises in power creep without the use of numbers. Some shlack happens that puts characters is pickle, then they resolve it with mind bending power and abilities that are rooted in gags. But as for your observation of UI, it is a bit different because the main gimmick of UI is that you reach a pinnacle of body and mind optimization where you can fight without thinking and allow unlagged reflexes to boost your speed and adaptability. Hence AUTONOMOUS Ultra Instinct, even this however is a rehashed tool (in my opinion) from when Goku trained with Popo at the lookout. Ki control 2.0

[@Sayrden]

@@thelivingglitch307 Regarding UI, at first I thought the concept - perfecting the ability to act without conscious thought - was pretty cool. Having studied a bit of martial arts, I was genuinely excited when it was revealed and I could recognize the idea from my own experience. And when it's introduced, the animation used to visualize it is genuinely striking and does a lot to sell the idea that UI is something truly different. But while Your Mileage May Vary, I feel like there's no getting around the fact that in plot terms it's mostly just another power-up. In fact, since it's about removing conscious thought from the equation, you could argue that the writers have put themselves in a place where even if they decided to try to address these concerns, in UI Goku _can't_ use clever tactics and strategy to win without opening a plot hole.

[@thelivingglitch307]

@@Sayrden I hope Hit doesn't befall the same fait. But also would like him to not be undermined.

[@cheer2moon]

"White hair gohan" "Grand padre" Oh my god even here I am still on 4chan DBS thread lol

[@wootmastergeneral234]

Cheers2Moon I

[@UltraVast]

Welcome to the internet. Where everyone is at their worst.

[@Spoonky92]

CHADhan always wins!

[@soegte]

Gohan Blanco* El Grande Padre* dont mess them up again

[@Valanway]

Godhan > Cuckifla.

[@NickonPlanetRipple]

I like your explanation of how power levels work around the 9-15 minute mark. You might think it's convoluted, but I found it very easy to follow. Broken down the way you did it is pretty sound. It makes it easy to make a character powerful without making them invincible, for them to be able to pull of incredible feats yet still be punctured by a needle if they aren't covering themselves with ki or whatever. Just like how Krillin could've easily slain Vegeta with that sword in his weakened state, presumably even someone as powerful as Frieza could be killed in his sleep. I like that. Then again, people will probably say I just like applying numbers to everything like a robot because I'm autistic... which I am.

[@mrwhippy101]

Nick on Planet Ripple Yeah I thought it Was good too

[@mielliot13]

Agreed, that actually seemed like a really good explanation.

[@fidelracingful]

I consider power levels to make no sense because: 1- They are numbers we don't know what are they even measuring (energy output? horsepower? megatons of force? midichlorians?) 2- Everyone can do the same bloody thing: Shoot energy balls and charge up their energy to blow up wathever the plot needs them too or, more accurately speaking, they all manipulate _chi_ and their superpowers stem from that, and their abilities aren't well defined or separated like in Hunter x Hunter or YYH, so it makes no sense that one can be stronger than every other just by amplifying their physical stats, because, the other fighters, being able to do the exact same things, should just do the same and catch up to them anyway (which is kinda what Hit and Zamasu did). 3- I think power levels DO exist, it's just that I don't consider DBZ/S/GT to handle them well because, as I said, everyone's powers are of a similar nature (practically the same) so unless they are distinguished from the rest by developing or having a particularly powerful ability that gives them an advantage against every other fighter, their physical stats alone should be meaningless in a fight between _chi_ users. For example, in DC, Superman is the strongest because he's the only one who can absorb sunlight and has near endless strength, FTL speed, heat vision, invulnerability, etc.; other characters don't have that share of abilities and as such they fall behind him, but then, when you find another kryptonian or character with similar powers (like Shazam) you see that they're evenly matched; Darkseid is so powerful because of the Omega Effect, the New Gods have the Source, the Endless are reality warpers, etc. tl; dr: Characters who can all do the same thing being given a random number that states their place in the pecking order makes no sense; I think that, in order for power levels to actually exist, there has to be a difference in the overall abilities of every character, and some have a power that naturally puts them above all others.

[@brandonadrien3476]

Nick on Planet Ripple ... That's the Nen system in Hunter x Hunter. And yeah, the system's very detailed with the amount of exposition it got in across 3 arcs (and still being built upon in the manga too) but Togashi organized the information very well, with fights with Nen taking place to show the information in practice. Now we know the rules and therefore, we can play along. Heck, one of the characters can even put numbers to that force in a perfectly explained manner with his ability.

[@Arkayjiya]

The only thing I thought faulty with this explanation is that the ki aura are probably not "pierced" by stronger attacks (otherwise once they reach the quintillion power level, if their body below the armor is still human, any attack who goes through the shield, no matter how weak, would pulverize instantly what's inside), they're just weakened and physical dommage is dealt in proportion of how one aura is stronger than the other (which still gives some low -but not non-existent- damage during the fight, before the big last attack). The proportion also means that if you want to see a linear curve of their power, you have to use a logarithmic scale which explains why a fighter who's incredibly weaker than another isn't turned to dust instantly (as they should if the scale and ki comparison was linear).

[@bass-dc9175]

The pure stupidity of "STRONGA = BETTA" is highlighted in the Hit fight. At first I though "Huh. Finally a fight where Goku needs to use his brain" And guess what? HE KINDA DOES. At first it looks like the Time-Stop power had some flaw, like having to resume time before making contact giving the enemy just a fraction of a second time. What I thought was happening was: Goku left weakpoints open to bait Hit, while preparing himself to cover these exact weakpoints. That way: It was a battle of minds. But what ACTUALLY happens is: Goku powered up so that his numbers are the numberist numbers that ever numbered. Then he compares his numbers against hits numbers and suddenly his time stop doesn't work on goku. Then Goku pulls out his ultimate move to make his numbers even numberier and ultimately defeats Hits technique. But since his numbers where not as Numbery as needed, he looses the fight. The worst fight in entire dragonball. JUST because of the potential it had, and its willingness to run head first into a wall.

[@elevate07]

Zamasu is another fight like this. Black gets better and stronger the more he fights. And Zamasu can't be killed. So what do you do? Well you seal him. So the name of the game is separating Black and Zamasu, sealing up Zamasu, and attempting to overwhelm Black before he becomes too powerful to stop. But no. They just fuse. And Vegito beats him up. And then Trunks beats him up. And then they use a literal "I win" button to just stop the plot

[@MrAuthor3DS]

I've heard that even the Power of Destruction has been hampered by the power of numbers. Like, you'd think from Beerus's demonstration on Zamasu that it's not blockable at all. But nope! There are characters that have resisted or absorbed the energy of the Power of Destruction! Now instead of some imposing force, it's just another energy-based attack that can be stopped by STRONG.

[@JoseRodriguez-el7jq]

I also loved the idea that ultra instinct wasn't a transformation for while and it was Goku peeking to its martial arts and mastering fighting without thinking its like becoming the embodiment of martial arts kinda I guess, BUT NO! I watch thousands of videos cause it was recommended to me by KZbin and read an article saying that ultra instinct is a new form with a higher power level why would someone make MUI a fucking form and just make it like the name says just a "fucking instinct" a sixed sense like the spidey sense or some other shit, anything other than a new form😤

[@johnnygyro2295]

@@elevate07 While I liked the idea of Zamasu fusing, it would've made more sense if it gave him a power boost, but at the cost of removing his immortality. After all, one of the fusees was not Immortal, so it should reduce it to a more manageable healing factor.

[@sr.favopossodeixarvaziosim4595]

To be fair... Goku increasing his numbers made Hit increase his time-skip. I actually liked the Hit fight because Goku didn't even transform at the start - unlike Vegeta, who thought that fight was a straight fight, went straght to blur and then got brutally ragdolled by Hit. I think it actually makes sense that time skip can be countered with enough speed - see: Dyspo vs Hit. Still, Hit is a killer. He was holding back in the two tournaments. If Hit had fought Jiren outside a tournament, Hit would have killed him.

[@JDubs1464]

I could at least get Raditz being physically stronger due to living his entire life on planets with a stronger gravity mass, like doing everything in weighted clothes. He is faster, he is stronger, but he isn’t smarter. Piccolo and Goku vs Raditz should’ve been fairly even, with the hits Raditz got in being more effective and more frequent due to his speed, but it would be an intelligent play to Raditz’ weakness(his arrogance) allowing them to finish him off in the same way

[@intevolver]

Please just call it gripe balls. Edit: this is brilliant, I hope you enjoy making these.

[@Fred63205]

Gabriel Tripp yes yes nobody lays on quite as thick in detail and I love it

[@postapocalypse0763]

"Gripe Draggin' His Balls All Over _inset series title here_ "

[@theoryoftheinnocent]

This video was in my head the entire time I watched Goku vs Jiren. It's pretty much spot-on, considering how they feel the need to remind you like 4 times that Jiren has *OVERWHELMING POWERRRRRRR* *Spoilers below.* Especially notable in 111. Breaking free of a time cage literally just because the plot said his *OVERWHELMING POWER* was so huge that time itself has no effect on him.

[@DSan-kl2yc]

We saw Buu break reality. How is that an issue. Hell Superman has escaped infinity and space before. It's fiction.

[@YourCrazyDolphin]

I think probably one of the best would be Goku vs Hit, and Goku powering through time skip. Mainly as Goku actually DOES have tricks that Deal with this. Like predicting where Hit will attack, and literal teleportation. Don't have to worry about non-instant movement when you actually can use instantaneous movement.

[@mitchellhorton9382]

I mean Goku beat Hit the last time with just pumping out Ki

[@ironvenator3405]

"Do they go to ANOTHER multiverse?" Text on screen: "dear god please no"

[@Nova-rd3hi]

Any of you remember that retarded moment in DBS where Goku is able to completely nullify Hit's timeskip ability by... raising his ki number? That has got to be the stupidest thing ever.

[@theking8347]

Time powers are bullshit to begin with, so the only way to counter them is with more bullshit.

[@roytheidiot4844]

@@theking8347 So why make time powers in the first place without THINKING?

[@Backtalkpunk]

​@@roytheidiot4844😂😂

[@InfernosReaper]

I can get powering up to be fast enough to compensate. What's really BS is Jiren just becoming "stronger than time"

[@Chowdah101]

There's quite a lot about DB to rant about, so I can imagine this going on for a few more episodes depending on Plague's desire to get mad at stuff. Hello in advance random DB fans seeing this video.

[@Enochian_Tomfoolery]

He should have ended the series with power levels. Now he raised the subject matter too high to ever keep up with.

[@nohat1375]

lol

[@Thisdude850]

Alestom Ah yes how ironic he made the same mistake he blames Toriyama for.

[@tellmeninetails5819]

You've got to remember that dragonball was a comedy. His favourite joke was the main charicter doing something unexpected that made people go "WOAH"

[@Yellowtoys67]

Chowdah hi how is/was your day?

[@agiammarco94]

Dragonball is such a good example of a student doing their long essay hours before it's due at 2 in the morning

[@Dreamfillah]

Perfectly articulated my biggest problem in Dragon Ball -- it's a fighting anime where the fights are always the same punches and kicks. All those training sequences before the Tournament of Power climaxes into Vegeta standing still and punching at medium speeds.

[@Jimsock3y3]

Dreamfiller exactly dude all th fights are "AKAKAKAKAKAKAKAKAKAKAKA" "*some type of ki blast*" "*a transformation*" "AKAKAKAKAKAKAKA"

[@kmgyening]

Yea, shit is boring now. That's why is was looking forward to the Pride Troopers and the Magical Girls. At least they mixed things up a bit. And I wish most of them didn't job to U6 & U7. Makes it look too easy for our main characters.

[@raulrojas9253]

try to explain that to fucking GOKU WANKERS they began yet again Oh SHIT GOkU ultra instinc is way more powerfull than superman......even when it has the same fucking feats as before again.

[@DSan-kl2yc]

That is bullshit. You can take anything and make dumb ass complaints. It's one oieve again. Luffy just stretches. Every fight is the same. Saying there was no.motion in the zamasu fight is a lie IPeoole say wrestling is a fighting soap opera..and wushu opera DB is in the same category

[@DSan-kl2yc]

@@raulrojas9253 wow dude your brain is small. I get why Naruto is popular. People need things spelled out slowly because they can't understand how someone beating Superman would mean that person is strong. Because it's a show about fighting. Not power lifting ect

[@vollied4865]

my physics teacher made this joke all the time, he would ask: how can you tell someone failed my class? then he'd follow it up and say: they are a dragonball fan. and those of us who knew would laugh because anyone who knows the powerscalling community knows how outlandish and absolutely asinine their maths and calculations get to rationalize the absolute bullshit in the series, and this was over 10years ago before Super was even a sperm in toriyamas nutsac, truly my teacher was a decade ahead of himself.

[@dylanbuchanan6511]

An anime savvy teacher…sounds both neat and dangerous. Maybe he could genetically engineer an overpowered shonen jump protag

[@Fentlover1]

I think he was just being a dick

[@huguesdepayens807]

And then everyone clapped.

[@shady8045]

As someone who failed physics in college this is accurate

[@Khazuki_]

Framing the fights in terms of "feats" is a good way to establish that nothing has actually changed for a very long time.

[@eliack95]

Hunter x Hunter half ruined Dragon Ball for me because it made me realize how poorly written it is. HXH actually explains things and takes nothing for granted.

[@Humorless_Wokescold]

I love how self aware Hunter x Hunter is. Like when Gon fights Knuckle and sits through Knuckles long ass explanation of how his power works. Gon's is confused as why Knuckle would explain how his power works... only for Knuckle to explain making his explanation so long winded gives him a chance to let "the interest" on his special ability start stacking up. Or, more seriously, when Biscuit straight up tells Killua that he has the mentality of a loser. Obviously he was going to meet people as strong as him if not stronger and it is ridiculous to assume an opponent will always be at 100%. A fighter can't expect to win a fight he hasn't fought yet.

[@a.c.slater7989]

Most other battle Shounen are way more in depth than DB. Their "system" might be a bit vague but their fights usually take more strategy than most of what DB has to offer

[@MusaMansu]

Most early Shonen don’t have detailed power systems. Take YYH for example. They both have Power Levels and their about as versatile in the abilities that theyuse. At least if you compare it to the original Dragon Ball. Has Leorio even had a real fight yet?

[@Humorless_Wokescold]

@@MusaMansu Leorio is a doctor lmao. Why would he have a "real fight?"

[@zael7292]

Db is pretty underrated

[@seelcudoom1]

the ultimate example of this is the original broly, hes established to be stupidly powerful just by birth even more so then frieza, and while frieza dident train he at least was intelligent, broly had neither, hes is a slobbering berserker not even able to form coherent sentences whos only strategy was "hit them really really hard" the logical conclusion to this would be you know, have them gain the upper hand threw tactics and there mastery of actual martial arts, but instead there solution is....to hit him really really really hard

[@Humorless_Wokescold]

What annoys me the most about the original Broly movie is that the ending pisses away the set up. The point (at least as I saw it) of showing us weak little baby Goku cowing super strong baby Broly was to establish that power can't crush the spirit of a real warrior whatever the gap. The climax should have shown Goku's grit, determination, and warrior spirit wearing down Broly until finally Goku stood over him victorious. Instead he borrows his friends ki and punches Broly really hard in the stomach. The worst anti-climax in all the DB movies.

[@ColdNorth0628]

Original broly did make cohherent sentences and his fighting style was pretty much just "be a tank" of which he was. People think he is dumb, but he is rather articulate and sadistic. But that also made him cocky but for good reason. Everyone thinks he is dumb due to KAKAROT being the thing he yelled a lot. Now the sequel is when stuff gets iffy.

[@Humorless_Wokescold]

@@ColdNorth0628 Yeah, original Broly had a very cruel sense of humor. He taunts Vegeta about being a Prince without the power to enforce his will, laughs at the weird bird aliens before blowing up their world, and he literally bounces on Goku's stomach while laughing. I think a lot of people end up equating insanity (which Broly pretty definitely is) with stupidity so berserker characters end up stereotyped as dumb even if there's nothing to suggest that.

[@smaragdchaos]

@@Humorless_Wokescold ? Goku borrowing power from the Z fighters was the only real way to win the fight. Goku somehow wearing Broly down while Broly is unhurt at full power, meanwhile Goku is badly beaten and worn out with some "real warrior spirit" sounds like corny Fairy Tail bullshit, which Dragon Ball was never about.

[@smaragdchaos]

You need to rewatch the original Broly movies, because Broly is in fact very capable of forming coherent sentences. He was taunting and making fun of everyone the whole time, even in his LSSj form, that's far from being unable to form coherent sentences. Only the new Broly is so badly written he somehow loses the power of speech when he's angry, both in base and LSSj forms.

[@Warriordud]

you see, it's obvious that they're just talking REALLY HARD which is why they can still understand each other at light speed

[@dlbutters7164]

Also, remember how Goku suddenly could read Kuririn's mind after he physically trained on his way to Namek just because he felt like he could do that?

[@nameless6923]

muffin button

[@kingp260]

DBZ: Kakarot explains that Goku could always do this since training with King Kai, he just never had a reason to do it.

[@technicolormischief-maker5683]

@@kingp260 Jesus- *what?* So that wouldn’t have helped in the Vegeta fight *at all?* That’s the stupidest shit I’ve ever heard!

[@kingp260]

@@technicolormischief-maker5683 Goku can only consensually read minds, not forcefully like Kami and Korin. He couldn't have read Vegeta's mind because Vegeta has no reason to let him.

[@flamesofjihad4069]

@@kingp260 Thats the most useless ability ever. Might aswell just ask the person what they're thinking if you need consent haha

[@almanaccomics2774]

Tbh, this is why i think the new villain Moro us interesting, coz the more they raise their numbers,the worse it is for them,and they're having to learn techniques to win, not raw strength Edit: yeah...this comment didn't age well lmao

[@fryer.studios100]

Exactly

[@JuwanBuchanan]

Funny enough alot of fanboys are calling the Moro arc trash because Goku and Vegeta cant transform

[@superexclusive452]

Divine_Wrath not really. They’re applauding it now. Because they can’t beat Moro with forms and *biGgEr pOwWa nuMbEr*

[@smaragdchaos]

Power still matters massively in this plot setting, believe it or not. You just can't remove power levels from Dragon Ball since they're the modus operandi of this entire lore.

[@qoyote]

Oh yeah, this comment aged like fine milk.

[@r.connor9280]

To quote someone else "Anything past planetary is just showing off."

[@iwillbecomeimmortalordietr8506]

Planetary is still pushing it.

[@lelenny2904]

@@VarietySeth Goku litetally crapped out a mini universe when he "mastered" UI

[@sean.a.s7234]

@@VarietySeth Power scaling has gone to the point where "Multiversal buster" and "Omniversal buster" are used as measurements,

[@GokaikillerTobi]

@@sean.a.s7234 I'm more impressed when takuma sakazaki from king of fighters deflected a beam that's capable of destroying a large continent than goku's universal punch or ralf Jones neomax looks more badass than the kamehameha and you can quote me on that

[@fly672]

@@sean.a.s7234 not a singls DB character is omniversal.

[@esihlesaunders6023]

28:35 "white haired Colombian edge lord Gohan". This aged WAY too well it hurts my spirit deeply

[@spideyfan5313]

yeah Akira Toriyama was never a genius at fighting but damn he can sure make an 11 year old happy

[@dstinnettmusic]

Teheran Rice you may want to rephrase that...

[@dylancumberland8051]

@@dstinnettmusic nah it's great

[@Thoregor]

Anything flashy makes an 11 yo happy. The fights being filled with ki blasts are exactly the reason why kids got into DBZ much quicker than into DB (at least that's how it happened in my case). I got to watch both at the same time when I was a kid, and the DB episode was right before the DBZ one, so I watched them one after the other. I still remember how I loathed the wait for what happened next on Namek while kid Goku, of whom I really got no idea why he was a kid at the time he was an adult on Namek (yeah, I was an 11 yo), was slapping Bulma's pussy. As time passed I started to appreciate the DB fights more than the DBZ ones simply because I COULD SEE THE CHARACTERS MOVE AND NOT JUST LIGHT CLASHES ON A DRAWN SKY, ONLY TO BE SEEN WHEN CHARGING UP BRIGHTLY COLORED KI BLASTS. Now in my early 20's I can just say both aren't that amazing, they just introduced me to a... more exotic type of cartoons, and that is anime. Now I gotta say I didn't really watch that much anime, but DBZ, as in the case of many others I know, was the first one I ever watched. It's simple if you think about it, just how kids grow nowadays with, I dunno, Hero Academy (which I can 100% vouch it works the same way DBZ worked), the same way our generation grew up with DBZ. And as a final note, the only reason I think I returned to DBZ is TFS' abridged series. I tried watching the original show and my god, it's fucking boring.

[@AniGaAG]

@@Thoregor Same here. Am 26 now, last watched DBZ as a teen, tried to rewatch it sometime two or three years ago (Actually went into it super-optimistically, too!) - and by all that is holy, I couldn't even struggle to the end of the Freeza Saga before I just couldn't _stand_ it anymore and had to give up.

[@Zinervawyrm]

Isn't he also one of the richest and most well known manga creators as well? He must be doing something right. XD

[@geofff.3343]

A literary argument that I've always had with the Dragonball fanbase is that I believe that Toriyama wanted to end the series after the Freeza Saga. Analyzing it from a narrative standpoint, it makes the most sense. You have: 1. Established a literal Emperor of the Universe. Remember in the Freeza saga this is not just bluster. 2. Given said emperor the highest power level in your scale. 3. Established the legend the evil emperor fears. 4. Then in a surprise twist broke your power level scale to really ramp up how insane things are getting. Physics aside that's a pretty fun move. 5. Your hero goes legend mode not through strength of arms but through loss of a dear friend in a cruel way. 6. Evil Emperor vanquished by own hubris. That's a natural wrap up to a story. Goku never has to get stronger because there is no getting stronger, power scale trashed, bad guy beaten, good wrap-up to a long running fan favorite right? Then the Android Saga happens and urg... now you're in trouble. You have no more power scale, but power creep is a thing so of course something has to be stronger. Honestly the only thing that saved the Android Saga was that finicky as hell editor. And that let it naturally morph into a torch-passing arc because Goku's arc was done (having come to its end killing the tyrant who killed his people). Though I've been told Toriyama wanting it to end after Freeza was a myth, to which I only have one reply: Well, then he's a worse writer than I would have thought.

[@smaragdchaos]

tbh DBZ could've even ended after Saiya-jin saga while still making perfect sense when you think about it, but Kanzenshuu addresses all of these possible endings

[@doctorreed_]

its not a myth. frieza was supposed to be the end, and goku was supposed to die on namek. his "passing the torch" speech from the end of cell was supposed to happen there, and the world is at peace. dont forget, in the original release of the manga there was never a "Z". they did that for the anime

[@smaragdchaos]

@@doctorreed_ All the possible endings and whatnot have been addressed and debunked by Kanzenshuu, so they're indeed myths.

[@KarthikArmstrong]

@DesertBandit there was never a "threat" in dragon ball z from the first

[@KarthikArmstrong]

@ITS bullzie there was never supposed to be a 'z' in the first place

[@soundrogue4472]

I personally enjoy Goku being weaker than Beerus. For me at least it feels refreshing to see someone Goku just doesn't easily beat someone.

[@EvilRyuGuy]

I do too, but the longer this goes by the worse it makes the narrative of the Battle of the Gods arc. Beerus was originally meant to be using 60% to 70% in his fight, but then Super comes and this is retconed into a smaller percentage which keeps getting smaller as Goku gets stronger and is still weaker than Beerus. This makes Beeru motivastion to fight a SSG nonsensical. Why would he be hype over an opponent that forces him to use 3% of his power to beat instead of the usual 1% with which he can beat anyone else? It's like the difference between crushing an ant and a cockroach.

[@alexanderthered5603]

@@EvilRyuGuy I'm pretty sure Goku was at a much higher level than Beerus in his complete UI state.

[@kana22693]

Did Goku easily beat anyone ever? I don't think that happened since the original DB manga days, I think he just one shotted Nappa and the Ginyu Force but pretty much everyone else either defeated him or outright killed him.

[@Artistofprocedure]

@@VarietySeth except that's the main reason why he's unbeatable the people who should kick his ass easily get fucked over by plot.He shouldn't have stood a chance against third form Frieza but here he is easily keeping up with a surpresses final form frieza

[@sean.a.s7234]

@@VarietySeth I think SoundRogues point was to see someone Goku can NEVER beat, not "doesn't easily beat", although he did worded it that way.

[@juicyjuustar121]

Power levels arent the problem. The problem is the insistence that power levels are all that matter, and the insistence that power levels need to escalate exponentially for the story to remain interesting. Frieza did not need to be thousands of times stronger than Vegeta, Super Saiyan did not need to be a 50x multiplier of power, etc., and, like you said, the fact that they keep going "X is the strongest in the Y!" makes it even worse, because then you HAVE to escalate to an entirely different LEVEL

[@DevonPalmer98]

Fights with smaller stakes will always be stronger in my opinion

[@SteelBallRun1890]

But the thing is, Dragonball has passed that line, its too late to go back to that level. It should've been a slow ascend to power than jumping up levels. Even the Universal Tournament had to make rules so that the OP heroes don't just blast everyone away. The best you can hope for is just shut your brain and enjoy the ride, looking for good writing in Dragonball is just asking to be disappointed.

[@DevonPalmer98]

I'm not specifically talking about DB just my thoughts on anime and stories in general.

[@Corrector1]

By the end of the first arc of Dragonball Z, the main villain could blow up a planet. And there were still two more arcs to go. I think it's inevitable that things ended up this way.

[@TheDapperDragon]

I'd say smaller fights with medium stakes are the best. Fuck this world destroyer vs world destroyer who can casually fart a galaxy to oblivion. Just two dudes with swords, maybe an army, a bit of magic, with the stake of a kingdom, or a country.

[@eausterberry]

Low stakes are great, because you can imagine the hero losing so there's weirdly MORE tension. Like, if GodKilled PlanetExplosion is here to kill god and explode the planet.... he HAS to lose. There's no way he won't. But if Ace Goodkick is here and he's just... super good at kicking, and there's a tournmanet with a huge prize that would really help the hero out but if he doesn't get it he has a whole different arc he's gonna have to go on? Well shit. The hero might not beat Ace Goodkick and I need to tune in to find out.

[@srinivasankarthik3759]

One of a kind show. The show's creator is a forgetful guy so the fans work hard to fix the plot holes cuz this series means a lot to them.

[@halaniwalombardi3562]

Yeah when all you care about is money you tend to forget about respecting your fans and just want to milk the series. Strong and big number forget stories because fan boys care nothing about making sense.

[@Alexander-the-Mediocre]

@@halaniwalombardi3562 Naw with how the manga industry works he has to conform to what makes money or you get axed. He liked writing gag manga cause they don't need to be well written or consistent as long as the joke lands but well the audience liked the fighting and power creep so that he had to do that. And so DB went from gag to fight series and its obvious the author had no idea how to write it. Also editors had a lot of say in dragon ball this actually might have been for the better cause editor interference is why we got cell instead of Gero and the white fat one.

[@chrisprusinowski5287]

That's why I think a rebooted dragonball wouldn't be such a bad thing. Some of the fans of the series obviously care more about the series and franchise itself more than its actual creator does apparently.

[@mrboerger1620]

So Naruto no wait that's retcons

[@dylanbuchanan6511]

And yet it somehow became the most successful overseas anime ever. Shows just how much hard work REALLY matters when such a brainless show can garner such success

[@Dstryrr]

"The tournament of power is 1 hour long" *50 episodes later*

[@manzanito3652]

Man, when Goku defeated the guy who absorved his ki and detransformed him from SSJ to regular form by just overpowering so much that he exploded, I can still remember the "that's it? " feeling when I was a kid.

[@zomboii2325]

"White haired Colombian edgelord gohan" GENIUS JUST GENIUS

[@ArnulfoSalgado]

As a Colombian, that shit made my day lol

[@dugonman8360]

The main issues with Dragon Ball and its writing stems from the cell and buu sagas and its a common problem when dealing with stories about extremely powerful characters. Others call it power creep, I like to call it the galactus paradox. Essentially if you ever introduce an unfathomably powerful villian, you are stuck in a situation where you need to create a villian more powerful then the one before it. If your hero can destroy a car, a villian must be introduced who can destroy a building, and then a villian who can destroy a city, then a villian who can destroy a country untill you end up with an antimoniter level villian who can destroy dimensions of reality or superboy prime who can punch reality. At this point all dramatic tension is lost because they've reached the levels of ridiculousness. This doesnt only happen with powers, intellect is also another sufferer of the galactus paradox (sherlock and death note come to mind) where intelligence is hard to distinguise between being smart or being a psychic wizard. I call it the galactus paradoz because galactus is one of the oldest marvel characters, is still overpowered and has always remained a main threat for the franchise since his introduction.

[@stormeaglegaming5395]

Awesome analysis

[@obamakiske]

This analysis is actually thought out, as a big comic reader.

[@lightningandodinify]

Galactus is a great analogy for this problem. Even Super had reintroduced this problem with Zenoh and his divine bureaucracy. Newer superhero content is the way out of this imo. Up and coming franchises like Invincible give me hope that we can see Dragonball style superhuman martial arts with less of the self-inflicted baggage of introducing these "ceiling characters" and the arithmetic mess of using comparative strength as the only sense of scale that the viewers have.

[@Breakaway-ic5gj]

@@lightningandodinify DBZ was many people's introduction to anime, and it was legendary for its time. But it doesn't hold up the same anymore, they should reimagine it now. I am not saying they should copy invincible, but they should learn from it. And besides Dragon Ball has interesting enough concepts on its own such as the Dragon and they can keep exploring the different thinks you can wish for and their consequences. Such as maybe if you wish for Immortality, then if you get blown up you'll forever live as a living meatchunk etc. And people will come back to see Goku or Vegita again. What I think they should do is instead of "getting stronger" they should focus on characters getting smarter, improving their technique. Like Tien is the only one that can Solar Flare due to his third eye, Krillin is the only one who has Kienzenhan, Piccolo can use his extending arms to grab enemies for Krillin to one shot them and he can take more damage due to his regeneration, Goku would be the brawler that his friends would support, Yamacha maybe can summon Ki wolves that unlike the cloning technique don't reduce power level. So he can multiply his power while having infinite fother. Nerf flying, maybe they have less control while flying so they still have to fight boots on the ground and mix in flying in it. Delete Namekian Dragonballs because a character being able to be brought back so many times kills the stakes etc. Damn this was a bit of an aimless rant I went on, hopefully it doesn't sound too dumb

[@lightningandodinify]

@@Breakaway-ic5gj the problems with this show come from Toriyama's skillset. The problem is that his idea to delegate it simultaneously yet distinctly to two different people and with only a loose set of instructions is terrible. He should either hand over the reigns to someone else to allow their creative freedom, or he should commit to training his own skills as a writer. His main problem is that while he's a talented scene writer he's a very poor drama writer. This is why the show is great when you live in its moments but quickly falls apart when you try putting pieces together. But Invincible really is the only hope right now. I used to defend My Hero Academia for its revival of the Kaioken and implementing it well, but that show has lost a lot of its unique feel early on and us starting to look more and more like the stagnation that Fairy Tail suffered from. I think the best way out of these problems is to have a specific goal from the start of the series that needs to be fulfilled by its end. A good example is Full Metal Alchemist.

[@st.sptr.5475]

The next topic should be the inconsistency in the collateral damage in battles. Look at the destruction ki attacks cause in namek when easily repelled (e.g. Vegeta vs Zarbon) at least atomic bomb level explosions. And yet, further ahead at Cell and Boo sagas, when everyone is x100000 times stronger, attacks dodged end up blowing up a small rock somewhere in the background. Like, were those supposed to accomplish anything at all?

[@giokyo9465]

ikr ! remember cell vs gohans kamehameha shook the whole planet but now when ssb goku does with someone as strong as him litterly nothing happens no giant explosion or after effects lol the explosion just disappears .

[@SOULAANI_]

It's called attack potency and they can control the area of effect that there attacks are

[@enumaelish9193]

Indra Otsutsuki So what you're saying is either they can control the explosion after it leaves their body or they're purposely shooting weaker attacks at powerful enemies.

[@SOULAANI_]

@@enumaelish9193 the first one u said

[@corbanhayes2476]

Bruh. That sounds really stupid.

[@aymenlouhibi5775]

What you're saying about defence ki makes perfect sense along with Toriyama hardly explaining anything so he can get away with shitty writing. Using this logic, I can only assume Toriyama made Vegeta forget about protecting his body with KI when being attacked hence all his defeats but again humiliating Vegeta and Trunks is at the very heart of DBZ's DNA. Such a shame