Powergamers, Munchkins, Optimizers and Min/Maxers in D&D

Powergamers, Munchkins, Optimizers and Min/Maxers, is there a difference? I attempt to provide a distinct definition for each of these terms.
I've created a google document to record these definitions that you can find here:
docs.google.com/document/d/1q...
To provide the contrast between optimization and powergaming, I'm linking my story of the creation of the God Wizard:
• Origin of the God Wizard
If you like what I do and would consider supporting this channel through Patreon:
/ treantmonkstemple
Timestamps:
0:00 Intro
0:56 Existing definitions and lack thereof
3:56 The Munchkin
5:17 The Powergamer
10:10 The Min/Maxer
16:43 The Optimizer
Join my discord:
/ discord
Follow me on Twitter:
/ chrishonkala

[@shikinananya]

The real headache is for the DM who has to create an encounter that can challenge a min-maxer without annihilating the other PCs

[@panpiper]

I say, run 'by the book' adventures and let the cards fall where they may.

[@AuspexAO]

I'd say the real headache is creating an encounter that doesn't make the other players feel bored while the min-maxer does 90% of the damage, moves 120 ft to grab all the treasure, and then "generously" passes out magical items to the party as they see fit.

[@johannesdolch]

You forgot one disruptive archetype. The "I am a Roleplayer". And what makes the "Roleplayers" so disruptive is that they think "Optimizing" is Evil. Because they screw up their characters so hard that they cannot effectively fill the role they want to roleplay, they constantly force the other players to cover for them and babysit their character instead of playing their own part. They essentially do what the powergamer does, only through "roleplay" instead of Numbers.

[@ATMOSK1234]

That's not really the topic of the video

[@TheRobversion1]

Agreed with this. These kinds of folks are so elitist. if you don't do what they want to do, they say why bother playing dnd? Go play a video game, a card game or a wargame ttrpg.

[@seacliff217]

​@@TheRobversion1 Yeah this annoys me too. I do like video games and wargames, but those kinds of games don't encourage roleplaying to the extent of Tabletop games. I wouldn't be playing Tabletop RPGs if I didn't like roleplaying whatsoever. As stated in the video, wanting to roleplay and wanting be good at the game mechanically aren't mutually exclusive.

[@TheRobversion1]

@@seacliff217 agreed! a min-maxer optimizer can be a good/enjoy role-playing as well. Plus, even for those who arent into role-playing that much (because they aren't good at it or feel intimidated by the standards set by shows like critical role), a ttrpg just provides a more open sandbox for the player to theorycraft, enjoy combat and immerse themselves in a world (all.the while.enjoying the story the DM provides and the role-playing his co-players do).

[@DenisLyamets]

I agree. Metagaming is bad. Conflicts in the group of players are bad. Optimisation... well, it is just a style of play. More to say: optimisation is not an opposite to roleplaying. I mean: you dont go to Wall Street and dont tell to rich people: "Hey, why do you make right choices?! Are you meta slaves or what?!" You dont ask scientist: "Why have you learned so hard? Stop optimising, bud!" Then why do you expect that character in a game doesnt wish to live well?

[@franciszekbalcerowski1814]

Plot twist: Jane is a minmaxing powergamer and went Bard because Bard good.

[@KaelinGoff]

Yea well, plot twist plot twist, Jane is the character that Jack made in a game where hes playing as a person creating a character for her Dnd game!

[@M0ebius]

Personally I think some of these definitions are a little too far removed from the mainstream definition to really be useful outside of this channel. For instance, I consider myself a powergamer in the sense that I actively look for the most powerful strategies or shore up any weaknesses in the context of my party. Powergaming in gaming terms is ultimately about winning, and isn’t so much about spotlight. Munchkin to me isn’t so much about working against the party, but rather it’s more about bending, breaking, or purposely misinterpreting the rules for the sake of power. MinMaxing is by definition about leveraging all the resources toward achieving specific results, so I guess this one is sorta close. Optimization to me is the most general of these terms. It’s kind of weird for me to think of the two as a spectrum. I guess the idea is one end do concept first then finetune the character options to suit that concept, and the other end is mechanics first and then build the concept around those mechanics?

[@Calimdir]

Came here to make this comment pretty much. I also would describe myself as a power gamer or an optimizer. Min/Maxing in my mind often means sacrificing one aspect of gameplay to maximize another which can sometimes be gimmicky or detrimental to the fun of a party overall, but that’s subjective. To me I think trying to apply terms like power gamer to disruptive playstyles makes them feel more normalized rather than calling them out for what they actually are, selfish and inconsiderate. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to get the most out of a game in terms of effectiveness, I mean for a lot of people that’s a large part of what’s fun. However I don’t think that should be associated with being inconsiderate of other people’s ability to have fun. That’s just being a social unaware person at best, or selfish and disruptive at worst. It’s a not a playstyle imo. Also a little tangent but, I do think it’s possible to play an adversarial character and have everyone still have fun if you’re at the right table and people enjoy role playing that dynamic. However the key difference is the adversarial player being self aware and consciously making a role playing choice vs just being a selfish person. That and having the consent of the party and the dm. Edit: Sometimes what people find fun about games is different and that’s okay, not everyone is meant to play dnd together and it’s about finding the right table for you. I think people not recognizing that has helped shape the view of optimization as something negative.

[@LibertyMonk]

Munchkin has always been a pejorative aimed at murder hobos and other typically unsavory players. I agree with you that they're not necessarily working against the party, because a party full of munchkins can get along alright, but if you have 1 munchkin and 3 people who want to be invested in the world, that's gonna suck. (also agreeing that adversarial play, if it's what people signed up for, has its place.) I have a lot baggage from competitive games, so "powergamer" just means following the meta, netdecking or using build orders etc to me. That said, I know that in the RPG world, Powergaming often has the connotation of steamrolling other players and either spotlight hogging or "encouraging" them to take whatever actions the powergamer thinks is optimal or most fun for them. MinMaxing and Optimizing are extremely similar terms, I agree that it's really weird putting them on a spectrum. Again, my gaming priors are showing, but min-max to me has a feeling of just knowing which corners are OK to cut, that X is a dump stat etc. In RPGs, it can sometimes have a more negative connotation, of caring more about the mechanics than the narrative. Where as optimize doesn't have the same baggage. Optimize doesn't even suggest cutting corners or having a dump stat (though, they still will if we're talking mechanical optimization), just having a sense of which choices are stronger when playing.

[@M0ebius]

@@LibertyMonk Yeah I’m from a competitive gaming background too. And I agree, a large part of powergaming is about an understanding of the meta, whether playing along with or against it. I think it somewhat applies to D&D too, in terms of understanding mechanics, builds, spells, DM tendencies, campaign style, so on and so forth.

[@XanothAvaeth]

Agreed, I'm a year late as I only found Chris' channel recently, but I find his personal definitions rather different from my own, and still somewhat removed from how I see these terms used in general conversation, or by people who self identify using these terms (even if just to acknowledge personal biases towards game interaction that they don't want to be problematic and for other players to call them on it). I don't think either Munchkins or Power Gamers need to be adversarial in nature, the traits described can all be party focused and cooperative, filling in for what the party lacks or providing control and support to boost unoptimised characters of other players to increase their fun and character satisfaction. There is however a tendency for these traits to cause problems for the DM to balance challenges and encounters that are suitable for everyone.

[@Ciberbuster]

What I have experienced with these "players" is that more often than an issue by themselves, the problem usually is other players especially experienced vanilla grognards that feel uncomfortable with characters outside of the tropes they envision the game. For them the problem is not that the wizard is strong, but that the wizard is of a weird race, wearing armor and contributing to melee combat, for them those characters are "min/maxed powergamers forcing the rules".

[@dylandugan76]

Speaking as someone whose closest friends have, for years, used all four terms interchangeably and in exclusively derogatory fashion, this breakdown could not be more appreciated.

[@utkarshgaur1942]

Solid breakdown of the terms. It creates a good distinction between which kind of behavior to encourage vs discourage.

[@godofzombi]

Maximising desirable traits while minimising unuseful traits: It's evolution baby!

[@Rashagar]

I was exhausted just listening to your description of min-maxer, never mind being the DM who had to go through it!

[@Deal101]

It’s called “use your brain” when you make a long lasted character😕

[@matthewchijioke4781]

I find a healthy trait for any cooperative optimiser is if they're looking to "fill a niche" left by the rest of the party. If they're trying to fill holes and support the others, they are running little to no risk of overshadowing and that kind of consideration means they are probably not looking to hog the spotlight either. Ive found its a good vibe all round.

[@SynderFGC]

7:49 "Hmm, I recognize that thumbnail style." 18:12 in. Oh look. My tier list. Tight

[@brunop.8745]

since that's your tier list, i have some questions For one, why is bard at the very top alongside the wizard? not saying you're wrong, just wanna know the reasoning behind it

[@BODELTOTE]

@@brunop.8745 watch the video, dude.

[@jinxtheunluckypony]

Yeah I’ve got some questions about your tier list too. Bard feels over rated, Fighter and Cleric also feel like they could both move up a tier.

[@SynderFGC]

No problem. Bard is at the top because they boast a similar range of utility as far as spellcasting goes thanks to Magical Secrets while also using Charisma, a stat that allows for much shenanigans between being party face, to persuasion and trickery, etc. They are also the best Skill monkeys in the game. Add on something like Eloquence to this, which makes that Charisma go even farther and they dominate social encounters.

[@SynderFGC]

@@jinxtheunluckypony as for your question about the fighter, Spellcasting not being a base feature is simply that detrimental to any class. Spellcasting is easily the most powerful feature in DnD, without question. As such, a noticeable divide occurs in that, half-casters and up are all higher rated than the full Martials.

[@fenzelian]

Min-maxing is less of a problem in TTRPGs than it used to be, because nowadays we know if there are a bunch of broken options and a bunch of options that are unplayable, we should blame the designer, and the games are more balanced as a result. Back in the day overall game balance wasn’t a thing. Instead, if you picked something because it was flavorful and your friend only picked the most powerful stuff the difference in the characters would be so enormous it could stop the game from being fun for you. There’s nothing on that level in 5e, even the most broken stuff, so you can optimize your own character without worrying that your friend is playing a wizard with one max hit point, no armor, and only 2 spells a day.

[@tawumpas]

Alright, but he has 9 AC and I have had to use all spell scrolls to make mage armor for them...

[@herbreisig553]

Something that annoys me is when I'm reading a forum where someone is asking about the strength/weakness of a particular option, and a chorus of "play whatever you want" rains down on the thread. That is worthless shade thrown at a good faith question. "Play what you want" helps nobody ever.

[@texteel]

Im not sure I agree with the definitions themselves, but I do subscribe with the overall need to properly separate them.

[@zerowing6031]

Excellent breakdown! The gaming community desperately needs more standardization around our hobby terminology. If I have to hear one more person say "I actually LOVE rules lawyers, who wouldn't want somebody who knows the rules at their table?" without understanding why they're called rules LAWYERS I will take 40d6 psychic damage.

[@seacliff217]

Lawyers can be infamous for bending the wording of laws to suit their clients. So I can understand what Rule Layering implies. That said, I think there should be a neutral term for someone who's informed of what the rules are and just wants to make sure the game is being played faithfully. I think that specific kind of player is good as long as faithfulness is also what the DM is striving for.

[@skyler9643]

I hate how lawyers have a bad name like that.

[@bard.college]

I really enjoy your takes on play styles, player etiquette and player psychology.

[@havasimark]

Welcome back. So good to see added value after the readalongs.

[@thejammiestjam]

I really liked your explanation and how these four types are different. Nice job, Chris!

[@logancuster8035]

Philosophy of Roleplaying? I take this as evidence supporting Treantmonk being one of the best, if not the best, D&D KZbin channel. Well done sir.

[@jacobjensen7704]

He's definitely my favorite one currently. I think Dungeon Dudes are a really good educational channel for people getting into D&D whereas Treantmonk is really entertaining for experienced players to watch.

[@seacliff217]

Min-Maxers who struggle when to give up their spotlight and are on the verge of becoming Powergamers should consider playing a support character instead. Hard to steal the spotlight when you are buffing your own party.

[@Just_som_Ottur]

Ooooooo I like this idea a fucking lot

[@MoCheezy]

@@Just_som_Ottur Tank/Defender also works amazingly for this. I get to have my power fantasy of being an indestructible powerhouse with insane AC that enemies can't escape from, but the other players still get to be the ones dealing the majority of the damage.

[@panpiper]

@@MoCheezy I'm playing a sword and board 'tank' and vastly outclass the others in terms of damage too. Oh well.

[@RJWhitmore]

While I think Seacliff's comment could come off as cavalier, it is a very good point to make. If you find yourself wanting to mix-max because that is what you find fun (I'm in this boat), but you don't want to be a powergaming as a natural result of this (particularly if the rest of the party are not min-maxers), then consider mix-maxing a support character. If you buff the rest of the party and enable them to do what they do best, then you've mix-maxed that role - and few of those players will be annoyed by your enthusiasm and dedication to your build.

[@Iceblade269]

Lore Bard is hella strong for a support class, and you get to optomize what spells you get. Tell them to play it

[@Sarinadragon]

Thank you for this video, always enjoy your content and breakdowns. I have never heard the term munchkin before, still.. my general experience with D&D has been a case of my table always has 1-2 people that I guess could be considered min-maxers or far ended optimizers. This includes multiclassing, taking the best subclass or combining feats and spells for powerful characters even if they themselves are decent role players. Some tables don’t RP at all, but I prefer to myself. Regardless the main problem becomes if one or people stack their character then those who are playing “normal” or “lesser” characters end up feeling less involved and useful in and out of combat. And also combat encounters are the DM trying to balance monsters to challenge the power player but not murder the people who aren’t that strong. Such as how a standard Fighter can’t compete with a well built Paladin/Hexblade. So I guess really what do you do in those situations? I would assume speak with your DM, otherwise the sessions can become painful to play due to that happening. There is nothing wrong with making “optimal” choices, and nothing wrong with making “weak” standard characters. There is an issue if someone is overshadowing everyone or making themselves handicapped in person leaving the party one player down.

[@alanschaub147]

This was a super helpful video. The difference between these terms explains why I have been so dissatisfied with some campaigns. One player in particular is a Munchkin both as a player *and* as a DM. He makes everyone else feel insignificant, even if he is just role-playing ridiculously powerful NPCs.

[@AsbakNL]

i like min maxing as in i focus my character in one certain direction so that others in the group can cover a different aspect. for example high strength and athleticism so that char can do the heavy lifting and others can focus on say perception and investigation

[@papercliprain3222]

I love your description of the optimizer because I also just love to find cool fantasy art and build a character out of it and let the game mechanics tell part of their story while still being pretty effective and making good decisions about subclasses and such.

[@Fangoros]

Can't wait for the Beast Barbarian. My concept is that he was experimented on by some wizard. Imagine something like the Simic Guild from Magic the Gathering

[@nicolasvillasecaali7662]

I'm waiting for it too, the beast barb looks like the more willing to use shields and engage in grappling while having his natural weapons to fight well, that could be a nice deviation from the GWM builds for a more utility frontline.

[@Fangoros]

@@nicolasvillasecaali7662 yes shields are very powerful on them. But I actually think that they are also the best dmg dealing Barbarian. Didn't run the numbers in comparison to others (which I hope Treant will do). But mixing 2handed weapon attacks with his claw + extra free claw attack makes for some insane damage

[@Fangoros]

So I actually got a bit excited and actually ran a primitive form of an Excel for the damage. I made assumptions which are definitely very generous: Every attack hits, no Crits, no Feats: So the Beast Barbarian is quite ahead to Barbarians that don't get a damage boost from their attacks. However they tie with the Zealot from level 1 to 8 and start falling behind the Zealot by around 2 dmg per Action until level 18. Also assuming the Beserker uses Frenzy every fight (I know, not realistic) they would be ahead of everyone by quite a bit. I did this calculations for myself, so there might be some errors. However still wanted to share it

[@nicolasvillasecaali7662]

@@Fangoros damage wise i expected the beast B to be good early and fall late, mostly because the lack of +2 magical items for natural weapons and that the GWM builds don't have a lot of sinergy with their features, that is why I'm more interested on a shield grappler, who can have his hand free to grab people while dealing damage with the tail or fangs, or just jump/climb and smacking them with the power of gravity. That being said, they can make quite hard to hit GWM fighters with the tail, that reaction extra AC make them hard to take down while pumping good damage to be a relevant menace at many ranges thanks to reach.

[@zenalias3131]

I had brainstormed on the exact same idea. Mechanics aside, I like the extra flavor it gives to the DM and party to build on. Like who was the one who experimented on the character, what has been done and what happened post-experiment, etc. Does the character reciprocate on the notion of being experimented on or were they forced into it and resent the ones who conducted the experiment.

[@winterfreyja5494]

So I don't think I know how to word this perfectly but I guess I just wanted emphasize that adversarial play isn't necessarily bad munchkinning is, I believe the line is typically drawn when actions which are detrimental to the party are taking because of them being detrimental to the party when the adversarial play is coming at the cost of some players fun in a way which they aren't ok with. When it stops "all being in good fun" is when it starts becoming a problem.

[@twilightgardenspresentatio6384]

Thank you. I will use this knowledge with intention and acceptance.

[@michaelpetrovich2959]

This was a rly good video. Thx.

[@punkassbamboo]

I can't fully subscribe to the exact ways you've divided these terms up (as you said, these terms are subjective as all hell), but I do appreciate the attempt. I think it's important to add nuance when discussing these various motivations and behaviors and it's always interesting to hear how other people view these things. You've definitely broadened my perspective with your insight, though

[@kparish05]

I like idea of dividing the play style from the character building.

[@reespewa]

Great video! I think the usage of the terms differ, however that's because language is fluid as opposed to any deficiency in how you've presented this. A useful breakdown of all the playstyles and great to show the distinguishing features, particularly in optimisers and min/maxers as I've been called many terms and yet have always considered concept first and foremost.

[@leodouskyron5671]

I appreciate what you did here and it is a small hint at an deeper issue of how people play and enjoy not just D&D but any asymmetric or customizable game. People talk about alignment in D&D character but they never consider the ones for players. (Of course it is a three dimensional array but still.)

[@shmuckling]

Beautifully explained, sir! I feel that optimizing can also be a way to have fun with the game outside of playing. Also, I can optimize a character that mostly "stays under that radar", while actively making everyone else's characters stronger and possibly more fun to play - and I can have fun with that character, for I'm accomplishing the goal I set for them. Your "God Wizard" concept has really changed the way we see D&D for the best. Thank you!

[@JonathanMandrake]

Same as you, and sometimes I even just look what fits my concept best, and only if multiple things would fit simmilarly good, I look what is mechanically better. But I also have to say, even though I have build the basics for many characters, I only played a Star Wars roleplaying game yet, because I started 2019 in autumn, and hadn´t much time where I could play with my group and no chance to find other groups. And my internet connection is too bad to be able to play online without problems

[@Uranium_Diet]

DMs on Reddit: One of my player is power gaming because he picked GWM on his barbarian Actual Power Gamers: This two spell combo shuts down the entire boss fight. Let's move on to the next encounter already.

[@TCovenantUnbeliever]

My understanding of Munchkin as a term is a bit different. To me, Munchkin is related to the Munchkin Fallacy: the fallacy that if the rules of a system don't specifically disallow something, it must therefor be allowed. Often these are the people who use very powerful optional material without asking the DM first, the people who ignore table-specific rules and RAI, preferring to cling to RAW when it makes them more powerful. It's sort of a malicious combination of Rules Lawyering, power gaming, and a mentality of "It's better to ask forgiveness than permission" when it comes to rules in an RPG.

[@KevShaw808]

Great video. I've been that DM who has the player come up to them with a dozen different ideas trying to find the most powerful one. It can get a little tiring.

[@ChristnThms]

I think of these terms as nested, rather than separate. To me, optimizing is the least restricted, and thus most general. It may not even effect character creation, so much as how a character is played. For instance, you can hand an optimizer a pre-made character, and they'll analyze it and come up with the best way to play it. If allowed to select gear, it might get further refined. The more control offered, the more optimizing. The min-maxer though, won't be satisfied with just any character sheet. He's going to want to have as must control for optimizing as possible, and will often combine things that are hard to justify in concept for their mechanical benefit. The power gamer is both of these, but with the additional trait of narcissism. He'll need constant comparison to others' capabilities to validate his own. The munchkin is all of these, but isn't satisfied with merely outperforming the others. He will need to belittle or denigrate them as well. This player will go so far as to intentionally tpk, as a demonstration of "you can't stop me." It is the difference between wanting to have the most, versus simply wanting to take from others. Where I see a very distinct separation of these traits, is the willingness to see other players enjoy themselves. At the optimizer and min-maxer levels, it is possible and even likely that this player is aware other and encouraging other players' enjoyment of the game. The power gamer is no longer willing to be considerate of others. The munchkin is actively working against the enjoyment of others. Self awareness and maturity may be some defense against the negative traits. But I've know some very aware and mature shitheads, and some very naive and immature benevolent people.

[@M0ebius]

I like your model, although personally I self-identify as a powergamer, and define it as just having a solid understanding of the meta (be it mechanics, builds, party comp, campaign style, DM tendencies etc) and actively pursue powerful strategies.

[@RyanWBL]

The "enhancing personal power over party effectiveness" do describe a power gamer is such a great point that I couldn't articulate myself. I've seen them in games basically over step multiple player's roles and it really does steal the thunder out of the other people's PCS.

[@dhaas4698]

Great breakdown

[@Arlesmon]

I tend to see myself as more on the minmax spectrum. Though i want to try the optimizer style. Just to see how well i can manage something more creative than Just being concerned about high damage numbers and stuff. Thanks for this video, it gave me some insight about the terms.

[@benchpet4328]

Great analysis - one of my favorite old articles on types of rpg players is Richard Bartle's "Hearts, Clubs, Diamonds, Spades: players who suit MUDs," which creates a taxonomy of player types based on two axes of interaction types. I wonder if that might be helpful for you in the way that you think about the different ways that players approach optimization (or any approach to character creation) decisions. Enjoyed the content, as always

[@RWCFORESKIN]

I have a party member in the game I run who has devils sight. There was one encounter where an enemy who also had the trait use darkness. The warlock stayed in the back and I allowed him to direct the other players attacks to make the disadvantage a little better

[@enelson39]

Thanks for this. I hope it encourages more collaborative play and less 'spot-light' stealing behaviors. As a forever DM, it's a pet-peev of mine when a single player takes too long on their own turns because they're trying to optimize their turn and is always the first player to 'do the thing'.

[@UEGDonkey]

My group has played for several years in survival type campaigns and we roll 4d6d1 In static order at the table and we optimize the party based on these rolls. It’s incredibly fun way to character build.

[@MrToroin]

I love your insight into the differences between the 4 terms. I would call me an optimizer with a tiny bit of minmaxer. I love to come up with a rough characterconcept and the look what I could do with it mechanically to get an effective Charakter. I love this way of charactercreation since this way I am certain that my idea is supported by mechanics. Nothing feels worse than a sneaky concept is horrible at stealth and gets seen every time he trys to sneak up to someone. Also this way I can make sure I am able to contribute in a meaningful way to the party.

[@popularopinion1]

Lmao, the shot at MinMax's channel

[@trblasenheim]

Very solid video! Provides some useful guidance for what will fly at my table (yes to optimization, no to min/maxing and prior). I'd add that another difference between the min/maxer and the optimizer is that while the optimizer tends to want to be the best in the party at some thing(s) while also enjoying the fun of flaws and misses, the min/maxer often seeks to be the best in the game of D&D at some things and avoids/eliminates their weaknesses. I personally find the latter to limit the storytelling potential of missed rolls and fuckups. Even min/maxers who discover a fun character concept can really break immersion and limit the game for some tables

[@shanebernier2483]

I was hoping for the barbarian video to finally wrap up TCoE, but without watching it yet this topic sounds pretty useful as well! EDIT: Huh... I'm surprised how much our personnel definitions of these terms vary, and even more surprised how you have chosen to define many of these nearly synonymous terms negatively. Can't say I agree with most of these, but to each their own I suppose.

[@M0ebius]

Yeah I agree. The only overtly negative one to me is Munchkin.

[@TheRobversion1]

@@M0ebius agreed. I see nothing wrong with powergaming, optimizing and min-maxing.

[@mduckernz]

@@TheRobversion1 Even if they come at the expense of other players?

[@TheRobversion1]

@@mduckernz define expense. As moebius says, munchkin definitely is the wrong behavior as its adversarial towards other players. For the case of optimizing, min-maxing, powergaming they are just pursuing their own fun. They aren't doing it with the wrong intent. IMO this is more up to the DMs to balance, to give the others a chance to get the spotlight. A good session zero resolves this. Moreover, a good play group balance (there is more than one optimizer) also resolves this. Imo, if one purposely chooses to play sub-optimally (like for the sake of role-playing) they should be made aware at session zero that they will have to live with the ramifications. Any build, theme, limitations (like no damaging non-touch spells) can all be opimized.

[@DarthBoberEXMinMaxMunchking]

7:47 not sure if I should be proud of offended, but I dig the notoriety ;) 20:47 yay one moar!

[@johngleeman8347]

Game balance is very important to me, and particularly when I am not the referee (and can't fix all the problems I'm aware of) my fear of other players experiencing the shortcomings of their initial decisions when character building can be obnoxious. It's not out of a need to be a min/maxer or for them to feel as powerful as possible. I just want everyone to have a strong niche and have moments to shine. I hope that my fellow players and cavern makers can forgive my overbearing tendency in this regard.

[@fizzlock]

Felt this. One of our party members made a _baaaad_ decision last session, squishing us between 2 encounters we were supposed to fight separately. I play a controller Wizard, and normally just try to let them know what I'm doing. However, when we got to low resources while half the encounter hadn't even broken into the room yet, I had to take control. I felt like I was micromanaging, and I felt terrible, but we ended up barely surviving.

[@Amrylin1337]

@@fizzlock Why should you have to do this though....? Isn't making mistakes and the ability to do so what makes winning worthwhile? If you're always going to win why would anyone want to play?

[@fizzlock]

@@Amrylin1337 It was a TPK situation. We're 3 sessions in and were just starting to get our plot hook before the bad decisions were made

[@tomgymer7719]

I like these definitions, although powergamer I might define in a slightly more favourable way, I've heard alpha gamer for the people that want to overshadow the party at everything, and powergamer for the ones that just want to be good at what they're good at, but are still happy to let the party do stuff too. I like to think I'm closer to optimisation than min-maxing, the one thing I really do on the min-max side is roll my stats before deciding what class and race I want, but once I know how MAD I can be I go for concept more than anything else I think.

[@thiagoloss2842]

This description of Powergamer almost perfectly describes what Orion did in Critical Role for 30 episodes. Had some war flashbacks just listening to it.

[@mduckernz]

Yeah. I can't even watch those earlier episodes anymore, they're too aggravating

[@CRobbio]

This was a fun video. I definitely live somewhere between optimizer and min/maxer. Though I recently referred to myself as "a bit of a munchkin" to my group. Probably should clarify that.

[@TrenchCoatDingo]

this seems like a oddly appropriate place to post this question...can i Quickened Spell hold monster as a bonus action then eldritch blast as action followed by eldritch blast using action surge?

[@finalfantasy50]

yes

[@polvotierno]

Can you do a video about Power Creep too? I do not know if one has been done yet specifically on that topic.

[@davidtays3625]

for me "optimization" has a general suggestion of sacrificing something which is considered less necessary for an increase in power, which is similar if not the same as "Min-Max" which tries to take something to the extreme at the expense of all else. In terms of personal playstyle I guess I'd be a "Jane", I have a character goal, and within that goal an awful lot of comparing goes on to choose abilities and combos that will yield good results. I will say that this does sometimes create conflict/chaos, because on a number of occasions I have dropped entirely legit combos or actions on DMs that I had considered at length, but which they had not. This can be bad because blindsiding the DM might lead to an hour long de-railing as everyone tries to figure out what is happening. It terms of actually bad actions, the one I am probably most guilty of is the intentional surprise, where a player gives the DM all the actions, and asks all the questions, but doesn't place them in context with their actual intention. I'm never intending to slow or stop the game, but I think it stems from having an "Us vs him/her" relation of players vs. GM. A sort of fear that a scheme will be (unfairly in my own mind) shot down if the GM is forewarned of it. Example: In a certain place in Out of the Abyss there is a CR10 drow priestess who has her quarters in a stalactite. When the rogue (me) and the ranger sneak in and catch her meditating, I know well that our level 1 characters will die if we fight her conventionally, even with a surprise round. We want to get rid of her though because our stuff is in a nearby box, and she will surely hear us looting it. So, I ask the DM to describe the room, and innocently ask several details, one of which is about windows. The DM, likely believed I was considering escape routes (which I was), and after some thought said there were a couple nice windows of size. Only then did I show my strategy, by communicating with the ranger that the priestess didn't have a great strength score compared to him, and a surprise grapple check using the two of us might just defenestrate her without giving her a chance to use her spells or superior hit points against us. The ranger is very excited by the plan, the party is ecstatic because if the DM allows it they will get their gear, the DM is reeling as he sees death come for what is supposed to be a BBEG for the first leg of the adventure. Ultimately he allowed us to try, and we succeeded in the defenestration. Everyone was happy except for the DM who promised to never give me a window again. I know I shouldn't be adversarial with my GMs, but I still get elated glee from stuff like that.

[@pvrhye]

I love that Conan picture at the end. The orcs don't look scary so much as offended.

[@Birdzlitlehelpr]

Tldr; you can be a min/maxer and a good party member. Long version: I love min/maxing my characters, for me that is a lot of fun seeing how powerful a PC I can create. That said I like to have fun with my friends and to that end I am almost always the last or 2nd to last to make a PC. I do that because I ask what everyone wants to make, and then I decide based on what our party is missing, ie. Do they need a healer, tank, support, or damage dealer. Do we need someone good at exploring or social interactions? I will then build a PC to fill out the needed role, and in that way I help balance my party without overtaking any of them in what they want to do.

[@themeanlesbeann]

Imho everyone is a min-maxer to some degree. No one goes "So yeah I'm playing a Sorcerer with an 11 in Charisma cause I just feel like that suits this character and their backstory". Everyone puts their highest score in the stat they need for their classes and that is min-maxing 🤷

[@KyotoChronicler]

Nice video. Optimizer for life.

[@isaachoffman6450]

3:45 Victarion Greyjoy is optimized for kicking ass!

[@porsehussy3560]

Stealing from the party (anything from pickpocketing to just keeping slightly more loot/gold in secret) is always a weird one in games I’ve been in. Even if the intention is purely for character reasons. Even if every party member has given the ok that they don’t mind or even love the idea of it. Fast forward a few sessions and someone is going to start noticing that one player is getting rich. Suddenly the consent gets murky, and not every player is going to let you know that you’re making them feel uncomfortable. I’ve never seen it lead into a /tg/-esque horror story, but it has left some sour tastes. I’m sure there’s some great ways to make it work. Perhaps I’ve just never been at a table with the kind of players that really mesh with the idea.

[@rallaa]

I've heard of someone playing a thieving rogue that kept extra money, but would always pay for the party's little roleplay fees like inns, food, etc. Also over time they saved up extra gold and bought an armor upgrade for the group's fighter. Personally, I don't care if some players want to scramble to collect every piece of chump change, as long as they don't try to hog extra magic items or the real big loot piles. Great username btw.

[@TheRobversion1]

I'm a min-maxer but i dont seek to hog the spotlight, be adversarial towards teammates, nor intend to overshadow (i just want to be good at what i set out to do, usually combat related). I just tend to overshadow if i'm playing with non-min maxers or the DM doesn't bother to up the ante once in a while even though he knows he's playing with an optimizer. I don't think i'm at the extreme end of min-maxing where i always pick what's the most powerful build the DM would allow. I come to the table with a concept i want to execute (like the gloomstalker assassin alpha striker) and min-max to that concept. I have fun building that character, watching it execute the way i want it to in the DMs world and learning new synergies along the way. So what playstyle am i? Am i a powergamer? A munchkin?

[@theeye8276]

optimizer I suppose. Powergaming to me refers to always playing in the most powerful way at the table. Like I optimize my characters but still make them do stupid or funny stuff when I feel like it "like I tried to get my javilin of lightning to absorb a lightning bolt when i know that it does not work, and took damage because of it". Munchkins are people who try to steal and gain as many powerful/useful items as possible (such as stealing everything and claiming more magic items when they already have one while another party members does not have any yet).

[@ArdentLion]

My min/maxed Paladin/Lore Bard (I call it a Practicaladin) kept my feckless party alive, across all of Barovia and back.

[@joepellicci8518]

I realized after listening to your but in power gaming that I’ve accidentally been doing it by casting conjure animals and having to make 8 attacks every round so I’ll probably start summoning max 4 so I can lessen those effects

[@Porphyrogenitus1]

Wow, no mention of Monty Hall in the title? What is this world coming to. I'll have to listen and hear if this vital lore of gaming is referenced in the video.

[@archmagemc3561]

Yeah, I feel that with min maxing/optimizing. Like when I'm playing a druid, I don't have many choices for proficiency so I tend to choose survival. Since i'm a wisdom caster, I tend to have some insane survival rolls that puts our ranger to shame. It also doesn't help when the ranger player thinks the same thing and has me roll. A fun way I've come to change this is that I roll for them, but THEY get the RP hook with just a little assistance or no assistance from me, if they themselves don't want to roll. (I also tend to roll very high on skill checks, but very low on saving throws and attacks.) Also question, how do you handle someone as a wizard running around with the Ring of Spell Storing + Find Familiar + Sickening Radiance + Wall of Force combo? I have that combo in a game of ours and due to just how strong wall of force is, it just ends encounters. Speaking of Wall of Force, neither me nor our DM can get any clarity on something. Does Wall of Force only create wall segments in a straight line, or can I configure the 10x10 panels in any configuration, or only in configurations that leave an open ceiling/floor?

[@skycastrum5803]

For me: 1.) Where is the group lacking? a.) Do I really want to be a healer? 2.) What concept do I want to go for? 3.) Let's get this cracked.

[@Duranous.]

As someone who like to optimize in most games I appreciate the pro optimizer propaganda /s But on a serious note, it's important distinguish that difference between what you are optimizing. Optimize a character concept or optimize for power, the distinction can often feel blurred. The important thing to keep in mind when maximizing a concept is to embrace it's weaknesses, to have a character without flaw is to have a very shallow character. It is easy for an optimizer to cross the boundaries into min-maxing or power gaming so it takes a conscious effort to reign in your desire for raw power in a character or playstyle. Optimizing within a framework is always more interesting than just combining all the most powerful things. Don't always test/question the boundaries of your dm (but do clarify your dms interpretation of rules interactions), don't optimize for pure power but instead optimize for an interesting build idea. DON'T play so that you hog the lime light, accept that you can't and shouldn't always be the person in action. If your party is to passive, instead of grabbing the reigns, have a conversation about how you'd wish others would be more active in the decision making process.

[@Nemiroffthebest]

Oh im still w8 for some funny new builds with tasha options...

[@godofzombi]

When it comes to rules as written VS rules as intended, I always wonder how you know what the intent was?

[@THEMithrandir09]

What does arcane abayence and tiny hut do?

[@captainpandabear1422]

I consider myself a powergamer, but almost none of what you said there applies to me. With one exception: the planar binding minions strategy. That isn't inherently a glory-hog, solo hero strategy. Hell, that's the INTENDED USE of the spell. If you have a group of planar bound minions you could put them under the control of less powerful teammates, or summon things that support teamwork rather than just doing all the combat heavy lifting. Putting planar binding on the same level as a simulacrum chain (definitely not RAI and only very dubiously RAW) seems pretty unfair to me.

[@TheTsugnawmi2010]

In short: - Munchkin: Player who optimizes his character or railroads the campaign at the expense of the party - Powergamer: Glory-hog who wants to be the only solution to every encounter, conversation, or turn. Very similar definitions, but a Munchkin actively sabotages the party while a Powergamer ignores the party. - Min/Maxer: Optimization within the boundaries the DM sets. Doesn't _want_ to outshine the party, but it can happen. - Optimizer: Optimizing within a character concept, not just the game mechanics. Very similar again, but a good example is a Chronurgy Wizard who takes Haste because of its power (MM) and one who takes Haste because it can be flavoured as time accelerating (O).

[@user-cf6ee2ud2y]

I’ve had some munchkins in my day, they didn’t all steal from the party though. The biggest red flag was when they would “scout” ahead or “check the chest first” and then casually tell the party they didn’t find anything or that there was no gold. I had a power gamer in my group, but he wasn’t evil: for him it was about the journey to brokenness. He would pull out a combo like reverse gravity prismatic orb or planar bind a holyphant, invalidate 2-3 encounters, then ask to respect his build to start trying again. Except for him I haven’t had any bad power gamers (and he wasn’t bad he simply liked coming up with crazy plans and then testing them), the type who will shut down a combat encounter with a bag of holding or banish the enemy because why fight when you can taunt the dm? Your definition of min-maxer is what I would call a power gamer, someone who tries to construct as powerful a character as possible within an inch of the rules. For me a min-maxer is someone who picks one aspect of the game and maximizes that, such as dps, ac tank, hp, unarmored ac, a specific damage type, play style, etc. that’s the maxing. These players then minimize their weaknesses as much as they can only sacrificing to better their strength. An optimizer is the evolved form of the power gamer (by my definition), someone who only plays with RAW and only builds for effectiveness, so they basically only play wizards and clerics and any martials they make use crossbows because numbers good. I’ve never actually played with an optimizer who has all the numbers crunched but I don’t know that it’d be fun, mostly because for them the players who didn’t optimize are dragging them down and for us they are going hyper agro on stuff we don’t bother with because it’s optimal. And I don’t even know how they’ed work with a role player or a “weakness makes it more interesting” player.

[@twilightgardenspresentatio6384]

I have always considered min maxing part of character build. Those conversations are necessary for anyone who wants to attempt it because it may not fit in the game

[@willtharp7477]

I have always enjoyed your content, and I mean even back before your KZbin channel. It never occurred to me that you were the dreaded "power gamer". It seemed clear to me that 1) you built to make sure everyone had fun and 2) when offering advice, you would explain the ramifications of the choices you made, ultimately giving anyone following your framework choices to do things differently, and understanding the ramifications of doing things differently. This, specific video is not one that I normally appreciate, but I watched 'cause you did it... That said, it does bring meaningful definitions to hot button topics. Hopefully, someday, the people who "focus on roleplaying over rollplaying" will someday understand that the two are not mutually exclusive.

[@jacobjensen7704]

The fact that he came up with the concept of the god wizard specifically so that other players didn't feel overshadowed shows that he's not the "disruptive pubstomper!"

[@Noyb007]

Real question- Would you say that a Hexblade/Paladin multiclass, or any other hyper-bursty character, is being played by a power gamer? Or would you say it depends on how the PC uses it (only in big bad fights as opposed to lesser combats)? Your videos are quality- thanks for doing them!

[@TreantmonksTemple]

I would say that really depends on how the character is played and the intentions of the player. If the intention is to have a character that can use the burst to steal the limelight in all the most dramatic moments from the other PC's, then that's definitely a powergamer style of playing. A Hexblade/Pally might also be used to wrathful smite enemies to protect other party members, provide bonus to saves to other PC's, provide all kinds of support in combat, or even just match the power level of the other PC's, so I don't think the build tells us all that much about the playstyle it will be used with.

[@enelson39]

I don't think picking a particular class build or multiclass option is innately powergaming even if it's powerful. Players want to feel successful and those builds do that. However, I think according to the channel host if that players seeks to optimize a build without any restrictions created by a character's 'story/flavor,' that is getting into powergaming territory. A possible litmus test to consider when building a character, do you ever take less optimized options like spells or subclasses because they fit the story or flavor of your character better? If you say 'that sounds ridiculous why wouldn't I take the best spells?' then you might be a power gamer.

[@nonamenoname1133]

There are two players in my game that did the Hexblade dip. One of them is not a Paladin and is exactly what you'd expect, lord, he doesn't shut up about how awesome he is (and how unfun optimizers are; at this point, I'm just complaining about narcissism), and the other one is a Paladin but never seems to smite and has very little presence in combat overall. It's a spectrum, and you can certainly pick a Hexblade dip and fail to execute it to the point that you're effectively playing a Fighter without Action Surge.

[@Startoshadows]

Imo hyper-burst like that just makes encounter balance really swingy, and if you succeed on the big dramatic end fight then it's over too soon. Just seems like it would be less fun overall than other builds.

[@charlessaintpe8574]

@@enelson39 I'm sad to say of all the many characters I've played, only one comes to mind that has a good chance if passing your litmus test, and another comes to mind that very explicitly fails it. In a Champions (super-hero) game, I made a character that was as squishy as a normal human. You would probably never see her, and would probably be way too distracted by her illusions to seriously look, but if you hit her with deadly force she would die. It didn't seem right that a mutant with the ability to bend light would also be able to take a punch from the Hulk. On the other hand, in a 5e homebrew where we were all playing monsters, I played a dragon who was a wild magic sorcerer because draconic only gave stuff I already had.

[@Bilbrons-and-Dragons]

I wish I'd known people thought that "powergamer" was a pejorative before I named my channel!

[@CrashCraftLabs]

i theme build, i pick an aspect of my character say grappling, then do everythig i can to mke the aspect the best it can be. sometime this require s me to also focus on other things, such as a support character im buuilding to buff the party or hinder the enemies like web spells nd what not. i been working on a whip master and a throwing item master recently i toil till they are perfect for me

[@szarkuwu]

"I made fun of bad faith reading of rules and left"

[@chrisriego8549]

Wow. I learned alot in this video. Unfortunately I feel I might be a power gamer without intending to be. My DM seems to like me following my character concepts which tend to be a bit centrally focused on my own personal objectives. I don't hog the spotlight but i do tend to cause a bit of drama especially when we hit the planning phase. The problem is I like to roleplay my character and I do randomize the ideals faults goals and personality. I don't know if I can correct that now in our campaign but I really don't want to become a toxic player... damn. How do I go about this now?

[@chrisriego8549]

I dont actually steal from the party or do dickish things like that. It's just that I play to my character concept. Here's an example: we corner a wolf that attacked a village. Its session 1 for our group and a druid I never knew before is attempting to calm the wolf down. Weve already killed this human the wolf was with. Druid seems to be failing and wolf is snarling and bearing her fangs. I saw the dismembered bodies this wolf killed the night before but it may have been bewitched of something. I don't care its an animal or maybe was following orders. It's got human flesh in its belly. Wolf is getting aggressive and don't understand what's happening so I ready to attack the wolf before it attacks us. Ranger pushes me last second and I miss. The druid turns on me and entangles me instead. Wolf runs away Scott free. That's about the extent of it. Now u have a small grudge against our ranger and druid but we still adventure together. Thay kind of in party drama.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

A lot of the best and most interesting characters in fiction change as the story progresses.

[@Mr911superstar]

You should edit the Wiki 😄

[@nidielcacaca]

As long as everybody are in the same page about the gameplay style, there's no problem in a party of powergamers.

[@panpiper]

I've been called all these things by my existing gaming group, because my character FAR outclasses the other characters in combat. People have claimed that the danger of encounters for them is vastly inflated because of how powerful my character is. I am playing a fighter, almost straight up. I did take a single level of (forge) cleric so I could cast and concentrate on bless (and cast identify). Other than that, I'm a plate wearing mountain dwarf axe & shield fighter. I took duelist as a fighting style to bump damage. I did judiciously increase my AC and save throws (and of course weapon) by acquiring appropriate magic items. I really haven't done anything other than that. They by contrast don't pay any attention at all to the idea of increasing their combat effectiveness. We have a rogue with a hand crossbow who took no feats to boost it's effectiveness. We have a cleric who (fortunately) asks me what to do, all the time. He at least is wearing decent armor and is carrying all the necessary support spells. He upcasts spirit guardians and spiritual weapon and stays at the front. Our fourth character is a druid who is so utterly ineffectual it is appalling. Her choices most rounds is use her magic item that casts fireball, or plink a single arrow with her bow, because she can't figure out how her spells might be useful. She's a forest druid in Ptolus, a city/dungeon game. I conclude that the 'pejoratives' of Powergamers, Munchkins, Optimizers and Min/Maxers are relative terms.

[@brannenpfister2579]

I feel like the more supportive of a character you play, the less people care about you Min/Maxing. If you min/max for damage, control, utility, etc, people care more because it hogs more of the spotlight, while people are generally thankful when the support character keeps your character from dying hyper effectively, or buffs them amazingly, haha.

[@RandomToon1]

One thing you are right on - we define things differently. I consider myself a power gamer, but I don't fit your description. I play more of a god style wizard, but the way that I work is enabling the party to do things. My "max" is removing their "min". Make the fighter hasted in every combat. Make the rogue less of a glass cannon with displacement. Ensure that the Cleric gets the most out of Prayer of Healing by dropping the wall of force onto us so we can top up in the middle of the fight. I think that is that is power gaming, but as a team. Covering each other, etc., and letting others try riskier things like a risky negotiation, because I can dim door us back to the door to kick in if it fails. But I think settling on definitions is handy. Getting folks to agree though? Yikes.

[@RandomToon1]

Also I know my examples may suck, but they were just kind of thrown out.

[@twilightgardenspresentatio6384]

Personally as a player what I want is to be able to affect the world around me

[@AnoNYmous-bz2ef]

Min-maxing can happen after the character concept. Esp with really bad stat rolls. Here's a problem though, the way you defined min-maxing suggests mechanics first before concept but they already have a goal in mind, a concept if you will, albeit a mechanics-based concept.

[@basementmadetapes]

I'm always a concept first player, but I do try optimize within that scope. Because did I give my wild magic bugbear a glaive for 15 feet of reach? Of course I did. He can cover 55 feet in a turn for an attack now. Did I give him the sentinel feat? Not yet. I'll probably get him magic initiate cuz I want a half dozen sparrows living in his fur as my familiar.

[@rictoectol9814]

I want to make a eloquence bard that wants to make his party do all the work and look awesome. I want a solid build: because I want a physically weak character that won’t take more than a wizard.

[@Typher_]

My DM just perma focuses only me every combat, uses gods to give me psychic dmg, and has the God tell the other PCs they’d get any item they wanted if they betrayed me, which they did. Was fun playing clock work sorcerer while it lasted tho!

[@chrisvelo2595]

I don't know if assigning these meanings to these specific words is really useful. In general I agree with Wikipedia in that these words generally mean the same thing. I think though that certain types of play such as a spotlight hog shouldn't be labeled as one of these 4 but rather call it like you see it. If someone is hogging the spotlight that is what you should let them know rather than using this shorthand. Same thing with be adversarial, ask them to please be cooperative or if they want to play something else that is competitive they can do that instead.

[@Jarikraider]

Me minmaxing purely so that the second combat encounter in the campaign with 10 orcs at level 2 doesn't kill our party of 3 because RNG rolls means hit you survive miss you die.

[@luketfer]

Since watching your videos I've come to appreciate Optimizing much further and nolonger see it as a catchall for the 'munchkin' playstyle. For example my Barbarian/Fighter/rogue is Optimized for grappling any size creature currently being a 9 Barbarian/4 Rune Knight/1 Rogue. Now is Grappling an amazing battlefield control ability? No, it's single target and doesn't stop an enemy casting spells but I wanted the best Grappler I could and I built it that way. Could the build use a lot of tweaks? Oh Hell yeah, it was made doing some back of the napkin considerations but I love my Large Grappler boi who has actually caused the DM to have to rejig monsters. It's not about me doing massive damage, it's about giving the other martials advantage on their attacks when I've knocked someone prone and grappled them. I'm there to help them out.

[@godofzombi]

I like making a build based on game mechanics, say a Fallen Aasimar war cleric and then work out what that character would be like in the game world. He's a cleric who follows the god of war, but he's a fallen... would that make him a pacifist? (In the end I settled on a Valkyrie type of being who saw the true horror of war and turned away from his war-is-glorious god.)

[@RedK11]

I need sources for the memes, desperately need the Vince one ha

[@TreantmonksTemple]

I did a google image search for the memes

[@RedK11]

@@TreantmonksTemple I Googled; "min max memes" and it's the 3rd option 👍

[@WolfHreda]

I'd never heard the Yuan-Ti were the most powerful non-flying race. I'll have to check that out. I've only made one Yuan-Ti character, a Ranger no less. Edit: Also, I accidentally optimized the crap out of a level 1 Fighter by making her a Dex build, Variant Human with Defensive Duelist, made Dueling her fighting style, and buying her a shield. +5 damage on attacks and 18 potential AC at level 1. Heh, oops.