Pre-Wrath or Post-Trib? // THE RAPTURE & ENDURANCE OF THE SAINTS

MARANATHA Global Bible Study //
The Rapture and the Endurance of the Saints Episode 39: Pre-Wrath or Post-Trib?
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[@crazycatman5928]

I’ve always believed in a Prewrath/post trib since I was 8 years old. I’m 49 now. Up until about 2010 I was clueless about an Islamic antichrist. Joel helped connect the dots on that for me so much. Everyone at FAI studios is such a blessing. I love you all and want to say thank you. Maranatha!

[@echoofthevoiceinthewildern3008]

Hi friend The antichrist isn't coming from the Islamic religion If you are a protestant, then the reason why you're a protensant is because in 1517 to 1520 Martin Luther exposed the papacy as the antichrist religious system in Revelation chapter 17 and the pope as the son of perdition in 2nd thessalonians chapter 2 verse 3 and 4 This is why protestants were created To protest against the pontif seat in Rome If we are looking for anything else for this antichrist, then your flight or what you know as pretrib rapture will take place back home to catholicism before the tribulation begins Jesus makes it clear in Rev chapter 2 verse 20 to 23 For Jesus has cast Jezebel in a bed for she teaches and seduces my servant to commit fornication and eat things sacrifice to idols, Who is this Jezebel for she has children For she teaches and seduces the servants of God to commit fornication And whoever crawls into bed with Jezebel will go thru great tribulation. For her children will face death, and then all the churches will know who Jesus christ is he that searches the reigns and heart of them Jezebel is also found in Rev chapter 17 She is the mother of all harlots, for if she is a mother of all harlots, then her offspring must be harlots as well A harlot is a woman or the daughters of Jezebel 2017 Oct 31 Pope Francis make an announcement to all prostestant faith For the 500-year anniversary of Martin Luther, it is over, and its time for the daughters of the mother church of Rome to return back home to Rome from which they came from She teaches and seduces my servant to commit fornication Didn't Billy Gram go to Rome and shake hands with the pope of Rome? I have a feeling Billy Gram made a new relationship with the religion of catholicism leaders to make way a pretrib rapture to take place before the tribulation begins For Jesus made it clear that whoever crawls into bed with Jezebel will face great tribulation And since we see the Islamic religion as the antichrist, then Pope Francis is right. Your protest is over, and let's all return back home to catholicism and be one big happy family See, I'm not giving up that truth that the papacy is the synagogue of Satan, and she is going to bring back baal worship not just only to the Jewish people but to the Christian faith as well before Jesus returns

[@berkleysteele1165]

The cosmic sign given by Jesus in Matthew 24 is not the same as the cosmic sign given by John in Revelation 6. The Matt. 24 sign includes a darkened moon, but the sign in Rev. 6 includes a blood moon. Joel gives both signs, the dark moon in Joel 3:15 which is the sign preceding the return of Jesus to establish his kingdom, and the blood moon in Joel 2:31 which precedes the opening of the 7th trumpet judgement which comes at the beginning of the Day of the Lord judgement or Tribulation. These signs occur approximately seven years apart. Hence, the Rapture is a pretribulation event since the Wrath of the Lamb brought with the trumpet judgements happens in the first part of Daniel's 70th week. (Tribulation).

[@echoofthevoiceinthewildern3008]

@berkleysteele1165 Hi friend Most Christians don't see two tribulations in mathew Chapter 24 The tribulation that was shortened This tribulation was when the papacy was a mid evil church, pursecuting the protestant faith Then, after that tribulation, the sun would be darkened, and the moon turned blood red, and the star would fall from heaven as figs were shaking off of a fig tree during a mighty storm The Christian faith in the past wrote history for us in the future, so we would know those events have pasted and wouldn't be forgotten 1755 Great Lisbon earthquake 1780 may 19 sun came up as normal, but by 9am that morning, it was pitch black, and the scientists of today have no clue why that event took place That night at midnight, the moon came up blood red 1883 Abraham Lincoln wrote about how he, with many other Christians, witnessed the event of the stars falling from heaven 1000 upon 1000 stars fell Today, we at Rev chapter 6 verse 13 Where those fig will fall from a mighty wind Next event Jesus appears in the clouds That mighty wind that shakes those figs to the ground is the mark of the beast event Those unripe figs are the Christian faith who did not prepare themselves for the mark of the beast, and they fell as the stars of heaven fell Revelation chapter 12 explains how the 1/3 of the angels who represent stars fell down to the lie the devil told them When the mark comes, another lie will be presented to the world, and the majority of Christianity will fall for that lie They represent the unripen fruit on that fig tree

[@donhaddix3770]

@@berkleysteele1165 that is second coming, not rapture...

[@benny-yj7pq]

@@berkleysteele1165 ++++++++Nice try, but not scriptural. The stars are falling from Heaven in Mat 24:29 and Rev 6, both are the same event after the Great Tribulation. No Pre-trib.

[@Da_VINE_Ruach]

You guys are FABULOUS!! The most realistic and non-long winded explanation of the end times GOD BLESS ❤

[@TaniaPerez-dz7dw]

God bless brother joel and his family! Tremendous instrument of God in this challenging times! 🙏 Keep preaching the truth. Brother!! PRE TRIB IS dying off ! 👎

[@NobleBerean]

Pre-Wrath all the way!

[@battleready5890]

My former pastor said; “there is a strong argument for mid and post trib rapture perspectives.” He followed that by confidentially saying; “we here at this church believe in pre-trib!” His statement got a round of applause. I guarantee you, very few feel remotely concerned that they could be wrong. I humbly challenged a few of the leaders to take another honest look. Those leaders no longer hold dogmatically to pre-trib. The logical/reasonable response to; “there is a strong argument for other perspectives” is to free one’s self from dogmatism on the matter. That is not happening because the pre-Trib perspective has gained a cult like popularity as well as the issue of pastoral salvation. The people will believe whatever the pastor believes.

[@writenow5]

Unfortunately😥

[@echoofthevoiceinthewildern3008]

Hi friend Most have built their faith upon the sand of man The pretrib and mid trib rapture will never take place to heaven All of us are going through this tribulation

[@echoofthevoiceinthewildern3008]

The reason why we who are protestant have this pretrib and mid trib and the post trib rapture Two of these groups have put this 70th week of Daniel at the end of time The 70th week of Daniel was during the time of 27 to 34ad when Jesus and his apostle worked with the Jewish people Since this 70th week of Daniel has been placed at the end of time and given to the antichrist, which takes from Jesus christ Jesus began his ministry at 27ad So we have a protestant group who believes in a pretrib rapture because they give themselves a way out when they believe Jesus began his ministry with the Jewish people in 27ad The mid trib places their way out because Jesus died during the middle of the week in 31-1/2 for all Post trib came along, and they placed their way out when the gospel was given to the gentiles in 34ad I myself am putting all bets on the post trib rapture For Jesus gave all of us every reason to believe in a post rapture after the tribulation Will a pretrib and mid trib rapture happen Yes, it will But not for the better A rapture back home to the papacy is the rapture that is going to take place for both groups One group probably before the tribulation and another group for them who decides it time to buy and sell Jesus makes it clear in Rev chapter 2 verse 20 to 23 All churches will know who Jesus is when they find themselves in bed with Jezebel

[@johntandy8918]

I am not welcome at any of the Baptist "churches" (all sbc) around where I live because I won't conform to their pre-trib beliefs. Infact most of the people going to them won't even talk to me and they have even gone behind my back trying to convince my wife I am deceiving her, even family are doing this. My wife was post-trib before we even met, but they won't even believe she was. I'm sure they would rather see us split up than for her not to conform to their beliefs

[@echoofthevoiceinthewildern3008]

@johntandy8918 Hi friend, Ask this church To show you the evidence from scripture that they are the Philadelphia church in Rev chapter 3 verses 8 to 10 According to Rev chapter 3 verse 9, the Philadelphia church came out of the synagogue of Satan Then, ask them to explain Daniel chapter 8 verse 14 Daniel chapter 12 verse 7 Daniel chapter 12 verse 11 Daniel chapter 12 verse 12 Also, ask them why the council of trent in 1545 to 1563 try too destory the protestant movement with this doctrine of a pretrib rapture to aid the Catholic church, not for any Protestants churches They won't be able to answer non of those questions because they base their own theory they are the Philadelphia church in Rev chapter 3 And they don't have one leg to stand on Jesus in the book of Daniel explains the appearance of the Philadelphia church when she would arrive

[@ericverby6969]

This is all very fascinating. My pastor is amillennial and teaches an “idealist” view of the Book of Revelation. The post-tribulation view has always made more sense to me than pre-tribulation, but I am new to this interpretation.

[@markmoore3530]

Rapture, false doctrine This message is sent in love. The rapture is a false doctrine and is mainly derived out of 1st Thessalonians. When was this book written, to whom, and what does it say? Written circa 52 A.D. to a church that was present in 52 A.D., this letter was not written to you. In every chapter Paul/Silvanus & Timotheus (authors) tell the church members that Christ is coming ch 1:10, 2:19,3:13,4:15-16,5:23. If you received a letter telling "you" that the Lord was coming 6 times what would you believe? Exactly. When our Lord was being led away to be crucified; Jesus turned to them, saying, “Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. He returned in the first century and destroyed the temple in judgement fulfilling the law. Matthew 16:27-28 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Daniel tells us Rome would be in power when the everlasting kingdom would be established: Daniel 2:44, 7:14, 9:24. Christ quoted from Daniel and told "them" (his audience to whom he was speaking) when "you" see the abomination, not us: When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) The entirety of the New Testament authors all tell their immediate audience that Christ was coming, in their lifetime. Paul, John, James, Peter all say the same thing. Peter tells his audience they will witness the revelation, 1 Peter 1:13 Christ was sent in the last days, Hebrews 1:2 The "last" days were 2,000 years past. Peter said he was living in the last days, Acts 2. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16 The word harpazo is used several times in scripture. It means to be caught/gather/taken, some scholars even insinuate a robbery connotation. So, who was the book of Thessalonians written to? A church When? circa 52 A.D. This letter was not written to you. It does not apply to you. You are not a member of the Church of Thessalonica. In chapter 4, the church members are obviously concerned about what has happened to their members who have already died, physically, verse 13. Why? Paul had already told them 4 times in this letter that Jesus Christ was coming. They were looking for him. In verse 14 Paul is telling them that God will also gather them, the ones who have already died physically. If you die a believer, where do you go to reside? Heaven This is your final abode. Where does Abraham, Isaac and Jacob live? Christ was sent to redeem/restore all things in heaven and the earth. Acts 3 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. Almost all of the prophets talked about the "last/latter" days, this is where the New Testament writers get their doctrine. The last days are defined as the "last days" of their covenant. The saints in heaven are not leaving their abode; they are simply included in the "gathering", which is the resurrection/restoration Paul preached. In verse 15 Paul tells this church, that they were going to "be alive", breathing, when the Lord returned. And obviously they would not precede, go before, the saints who physically died and were already in heaven. The gathering/resurrection/restoration was for all things in heaven and earth. Verse 16 the dead in Christ (a believer who physically died and is now residing in heaven) will be restored/resurrected/gathered first) Why? Christ was sent from heaven by his Father. If you live in heaven, then you obviously will participate in order first. Verse 17 then we which are alive and remain, we (these are breathing Thessalonian church members) Paul told "them" that they would see the coming of the Christ, 6 times in this letter. To "meet" the Lord. Just like harpazo has a meaning, this word meet is apantesis. What does this word infer to a first century person? This word is used for a formal meeting of a dignitary. Everyone in antiquity knew this word meant that a dignitary was coming to your city. They knew this meant that you would send out a welcoming party and usher that dignitary into your city, where they would remain. It never refers to someone coming to your city to get you and take you to a different location. The second coming/resurrection that Paul preached had nothing to do with physical bodies. He tells us in Acts that his doctrine on the resurrection comes from the law and prophets. This message is sent in love, your friend

[@kenamesthewatcherchronicle6746]

​@markmoore3530 you have really bad theology. In 1st Thessalonians, Paul says that when Jesus comes, he will first raise the dead. There has been no resurrection of the dead. Jesus himself said 4 times in John ch. 6 that he will ease up his followers on the last day. He also said that when he comes, the tribes of "the world", not of merely Israel, will mourn and they will see him coming in the clouds. He told his disciples that when he comes they will sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel. He never said he will come and destroy Jerusalem. John wrote Revelation after the destruction of Jerusalem and said Jesus will come in the clouds and "all eyes" will behold him. John saw the resurrection of the saints, which included they who were beheaded for not taking the mark of the beast and called this the first resurrection. This takes place when christ returns and destroys the beast. Daniel did not say the Roman Empire will be ruling when Christ returns. He said 4 Empires will rise out of the Greek Empire and the last will be diverse from them all. Rome was but the 1st of those 4 empires. Then, in the same form of Govt as the Greeks, rose the British, American, and now is rising the fourth, the Global New World Order. NWO indicates its diverse from all others.

[@writenow5]

Keep testing😊

[@davidlove21]

@@markmoore3530this AD70 theory you write of is being overthrown right before your eyes as the Olivet Discourse is playing out verse for verse 1900 - 203?.

[@markmoore3530]

Greetings, were you standing or sitting in front of Christ at the olivet discourse? The answer is no. Thus, he was not speaking to you. For any pastor/teacher of scripture to insert themselves into these scriptures today, perverts the scriptures, and takes them out of context. Unless a person is willing to lie and say these scriptures are applicable to them today, thus making Christ a liar also. Christ told "them" that "all" of these things would happen to "them". Why are you calling Christ a liar?

[@raddad10]

Maranatha, Joel. 🙏❤️🙏❤️🙏❤️🙏❤

[@judyd.5026]

Romans 1:18 His wrath is already being poured out now. But were still here.very good point. Like how God protected Noah and his family from the flood.

[@hbrws813]

Beautifully explained!! Thank you! Now I understand and will study this much more so that I can explain it. Awesome video and explanation.

[@denisegarcia496]

Thank you Jesus

[@MQShawGravity]

AMEN 🙏 Praise be to Jesus our Lord, Savior, and King! Pre-Wrath and Post-Tribers, all Christians seek truth, have a love for the truth and reduce the fallout from the great apostasy of “Secret” Pre-Tribers that may discover that they must stand in their faith in Jesus and never kneel before any human being or their image in worship or take their mark. We only worship Jesus. God bless you and keep you all safe 🙏

[@theronfarrer8974]

Thank you brother for this teaching, it cleared up many questions I had about the timing issue of pre wrath post trib.

[@preet6900]

Ty. God bless you

[@teej0813]

Nicely done, Joel. And I agree... our views on the exact timing shouldn't cause animosity between us. I also agree about some Pre-Wrath proponents teaching that the second half of Daniel's 70th Week is actually cut short. I think this is a misunderstanding of the term 'great tribulation' in Matt 24:21-22. As I study, I find two uses of the term "great tribulation": 1) A period of persecution / martyrdom that Christians will face prior to his coming (Matt 24:21-22) 2) The full 1260 days of Antichrist's reign, Jerusalem being trampled by the nations, and preaching by the Two Witnesses (Dan 7:25, Dan 12:14, Rev 11:1-3, Rev 12:14) The tendency is to assume they both refer to the same time frame and length of time. I've come to believe they begin at the same time (mid-point), but they do NOT end at the same time. In Matt 24:9, Jesus is clearly talking about persecution / martyrdom of believers. These are the days Jesus refers to in Matt 24:21-22 as being cut short. Reading verses 21-22, without the context of verse 24:9, might lead to the false assumption that Jesus was referring to the entire 1260 days being cut short. Just because Jesus removes the church from the earth (at the 6th Seal) doesn't mean that the 1260 days of Antichrist's reign ends or that his persecution of the remaining elect of God (non-believing Jews & Gentiles who become saved after Jesus appears in the clouds and gathers his elect) ends. Seems to me, Satan will continue to pursue them and try to kill as many as he can. Why do the Two Witnesses preach for the full 1260 days if not because some will accept Christ until the very end? These new converts seem to be the people that survive into the Millenium. For that matter, if the rapture doesn't occur until the end of the 1260 days, who are the humans who live on to have children during the Millenium? What I'm trying to say is that a 'cutting short' of the time the Church faces Antichrist doesn't cut short the 42 months of his reign on earth or his persecution of the rest of God's elect (Jews and new Christians). If I'm understanding Pre-Wrath correctly, then what we refer to as the Great Tribulation lasts 1260 days, but the days of 'great tribulation' that Jesus' followers face are cut short at Seal 6. That's my understanding of Pre-Wrath and days being cut short. Hope this helps.

[@NobleBerean]

I agree with your assessment brother thanks

[@MQShawGravity]

We won’t honestly know until the day someone stands in “the holy place” and declares themselves as God and demands worship with the threat of real death. Anti-Christ is given 3-1/2 years, his time is short, the Wrath of God is cut short, nothing ever will compare to the Wrath of God, otherwise nobody would survive.

[@MariaGomez-yr1zw]

Maranatha ❤😊🎉

[@MariaGomez-yr1zw]

This helped clarify a couple of things I wasn't sure about. It makes so much sense. 😊

[@cathyh.8561]

Excellent, Joel...wow...now I fully understand this subject. Thank you. 🙏

[@tonybrown2969]

Eternal wrath - thanks for presenting this so clearly. That verse has been re-framed for whatever end times belief one may have. I am between pre-wrath and post but like the concept that the bottom like wrath is us avoiding hell since we’ve been made righteous by the blood of Christ. That one concept is so freeing to once again read the verse more fairly

[@rainrabbit9209]

Wow, just missed your post by an hour. I was just thinking about this and glad to see this vid

[@LastDaysDetective]

Thanks, Joel! You make a lot of good points. Just wondering how you view what Jesus says between the 6th and 7th bowls: "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches..." (Rev 16:15). It seems to me that Jesus is saying that he is about to come back, and that at this juncture in the Revelation, he hasn't yet come "as a thief," an imagery he used in Matthew 24, and an imagery Paul used in 1 Thess 5. Surely, this means that Jesus won't come before the bowls! Why not concede that the seals, the trumpets, and the bowls all end with the one and only future coming of the Lord portrayed in Rev 6, 11, and 19.

[@Mike65809]

Well said. He made it clear he will raise us up on the last day.

[@dan-Michigan]

Just read 1Cor 15:51-52. Behold I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed - in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at THE LAST TRUMPET. ....

[@jaywebber2878]

The last trumpet is not the 7th trumpet. In order to say that the last trumpet is the 7th trumpet you have to use conjecture. ❤

[@dan-Michigan]

@@jaywebber2878 jay, there are 7 trumpets in end time Revelation. Paul is not talking about some other trumpets that are not mentioned in the Bible. So yes “last” trumpet could be first and last, second if there are only two trumpets, third if there are only three trumpets, etc. But there will be 7 and the “last” is therefore after the 7th trumpet listed in Revelation.

[@spearcarrier9595]

Joel, your teaching is excellent brother. Keep on truckin.

[@SolaScriptura406]

Great Job brother Joe! I love you and Alan kurschner and your teachings, been working out of pre trib for a period of time so both your teaxhings have been a blessing . I would love to see you and Alan have a good brotherly debate!

[@ingognito369]

Excellent

[@FewPewPewRah]

Nice job!

[@takishasallbeautyzone]

Bravo Joel! Good teaching! I could talk about and ponder all of the specifics for hours! I have so many questions. Perhaps I'm a bridezilla,, but the planner in me wants a chart to see when my groom is coming and what the banquet will look like, and who's setting up the venue on My. Zion, oh and how splendid we will all look with our glorified bodies and white robes 😍. Obviously, I'm kidding...but not really 😁. I guess it's how He made us women, but getting ready for the ultimate wedding...come on! What could be more exciting than that?! It makes me so excited to make sure I'm ready, and that my heart, mind and soul are acceptable in His sight. I know the days leading up to the wedding are going to be horrible beyond belief, but that day...oh, that day! Oooh, I can't wait!! You could make 50 videos dissecting every verse of the book of Revelation and it would never get old. Btw, do you think that you will be able to finish that series that you and Dalton were doing? I know he has his hands busy with the war/missions work right now, but I was just wondering. Thanks for what you guys do.

[@NobleBerean]

Thanks bro for your attempt to justify post-trib. I used to be pretrib then i saw post-trib and then i continued studying and i came to prewrath and in my opinion it has the most solid biblical exegesis. Listening to you very carefully, I'm understanding that some of your problems with prewrath are "self inflicted" and in reality don't exist in prewrath. Jesus said he was coming back after the celestial darkening and that's it. That's the sixth seal.

[@jetthrockmorton5155]

Joel, I enjoy your teachings a great deal and have learned a lot. Whether or not the Revelation 7 great multitude are martyrs or the raptured church can be known by whether or not they have been resurrected, which I believe they have for two reasons. First is their attitude. The martyred saints in the previous chapter cry out for justice and vengeance, whereas the multitude respond with joyful worship. Why do these two groups respond so differently? It can't be that the full number of saints have already been martyred, if Revelation is to be taken chronologically. But worship would certainly follow resurrection. The second reason is simply that they were given palm branches to wave, not likely something disembodied spirits would be able to do. Thank you for your ministry!

[@lCdGarcia]

🔷👋🏼Joel, good teaching

[@gwenfrey6346]

Thank you for another thought provoking teaching. Do I understand you correctly: Jesus will return but the Anti Christ will still be in power for a while as Jesus marches across the wilderness ? If that is what you are saying I am wondering if people can still be saved during this time? And if they can be saved what happens if they are killed by the anti christ? When would they be resurrected? Your teaching makes me have so many questions but I am learning and am always so happy when I see a new post. 🙏🏻

[@Mike65809]

Jesus said he will raise us up on the last day, not during the last days. Amen?

[@shirleybowers7251]

If God did not remove the Israelites from Egypt before the plagues or Daniel from the den of lions or the 3 Hebrew children from the fire, but protected them from harm, is God not able to protect us from His wrath being poured in His appointed time during the great tribulation? I say He is able to protect us and even through losing our lives as a result of not worshipping the anti-Christ just as Stephen was protected through his being stoned to death. Remember God's promise not to put on believers anymore than we can bear. SHALOM and MARANATHA!!! ❤

[@writenow5]

Wonderful understanding, thanks, you helped me!😊

[@writenow5]

Maranatha ❤

[@shirleybowers7251]

@@writenow5 Glad I helped. Must say I have had much help from FAI in understanding this subject. Every joint supplies. SHALOM and MARANATHA

[@julianaallen8477]

Honestly, I don't think too many believers will be left to be raptured. I think most will be martyred. I'm fine with that. I kinda stopped caring about the rapture after realizing that. I do hold to a pre Wrath rapture, losely though. Post trib is what I would hold to next.

[@fernandomaximoff3489]

Totally right! There will be only a VERY FEW survivors who will be raptured, the rest of us will be probably dead by that time, but we will be the FIRST to resurrect at the rapture

[@urbanevintner105]

Correct me if Im wrong, but the book of revelation says that angels are pouring out the bowls of wrath. How do you arrive at the conclusion that Jesus is pouring out the bowls?

[@crazydays4444]

Good stuff...... Thankful that the congregation I go to is not dogmatic on their pre-trib doctrine. have always made known, I am not of that belief. too much Scripture points towards (in my study)'. Like how you mentioned, that no one is gonna be boasting "we/I got it right!" And I think the same. Look at Christ 1st coming. Even His disciples needed clarification from Old Testament prophecy. Thank you for this clip brother.

[@timjones8765]

I would like to see you address the 6th bowl and that Jesus in that passage says he is coming. Not that he has come, but coming.

[@Docjam23]

Joel and I might differ on this, or maybe agree perhaps but the coming after the 6th bowl is not from heaven, but back to Jerusalem from the south (Edom). Zechariah 9 has the Lord God seen above them, blow the trumpet, and then go with whirlwinds to the South. Isaiah 34 has the Day of the Lord's vengeance and year of recompense, and there is to be a great slaughter in Idumea, south of Jerusalem. Isaiah 63 has Jesus coming FROM Edom (the South) when Isaiah sees Him in that passage, not coming from heaven, but coming from the south, matching the idea that when Jesus comes from Heaven, He first goes south, and treads out the winepress of His wrath, all the way BACK to Jerusalem and the Kidron Valley. Many people think of the second coming from heaven as kind of an instantaneous thing, just Jesus flies down on Pegasus, wipes out all His enemies at once in a single day and that's it. But that's not what scripture says. So where Joel and I will differ is Joel will see Jesus coming back to Mount Sinai from heaven at the 7th trumpet, and then leading an exodus north to Jerusalem. But I think the 6th seal opens up the heavens, Jesus is on the clouds, visible, the resurrection and rapture take place, the scene in Revelation 7 where Jesus is praised and worshiped is visible, from Earth. Like they know who they're seeing, and they know what's coming, hence the hiding in the dens and rocks. Following this, the 7th seal, heaven goes silent, and the angels go down to Earth to distribute wrath.... Jesus leads them. That's why the heavens go silent. Because Jesus left. This is to fulfill Isaiah 63 which has Jesus alone on Earth treading out the winepress of His wrath and staining His clothes with the blood of His enemies, namely Edom, Idumea, and every single descendent of Esau according to Obadiah. Then, Jesus goes back to Jerusalem, from Edom. That is where the saints rejoin Him from Heaven, when the heavens open up a second time. I do believe in some overlap between the trumpets and bowls because many of them seem related, and both the 7th trumpet, and 7th bowl have parallel judgements, and both involve Him returning to Jerusalem... but from Edom, rather than from Heaven.

[@timjones8765]

He comes like a thief after the 6th bowl which corresponds with Mathew 24, 1 Thessalonians 5. And 2 Peter 3. And that coming like a thief is generally accepted as the rapture. Further, 2 Peter 3 connects Him coming like a thief with the Day of the Lord which strengthens the argument of 1 future coming.

[@Docjam23]

@@timjones8765the signs he gave match the 6th seal, not the 6th bowl. None of the signs He gave preceding His return line up with any of the bowls or trumpets. Like He gave the signs up to the 6th seal, and that's it, then He went off into parables of things that happen AFTER He comes, the judgements and such. The disciples were told to expect war, famine, and persecution, and the abomination of desolation... not the water turning to blood and asteroid impacts.

[@timjones8765]

Seals, trumpets, and bowls all end with the same outcome which is the return of Jesus. From my understanding, the seals happen over a longer time period than the trumpets, and the trumpets are over a longer time period than the bowls, but they all end together with the return of Jesus and the establishment of his Kingdom.

[@Docjam23]

@@timjones8765 trumpets and bowls can be concurrent but until the judgements are completely unsealed the scroll cannot be read. It is after the scroll is totally unsealed and read that there is silence in heaven and the judgements can begin. The 5th seal the saints ask how long until God judges the Earth, meaning He has not judged it yet. It is at the 6th seal that people on the Earth *expect* judgement, but it still doesn't happen yet, in Revelation 7 the angels are DELAYED from harming the Earth until the 144,000 are sealed, and AFTER the 7th seal the trumpets are distributed. So the seals cannot happen at the same time as the trumpets and bowls, they must precede. But considering during how time seems to reset at Revelation 12 with the birth of Jesus, and go back to great tribulation, the bowls do seem to be happening in parallel with the trumpets. The 144,000 are a repeated detail as well, and Jesus is on the clouds in Revelation 14. So 2 narratives of Birth Pangs/Tribulation, Jesus on the Clouds, saints in heaven having overcome (in the first Narrative they overcame Great Tribulation, in the second they overcame the Mark of the Beast, I see this as parallel) followed by wrath/judgement (trumpets/bowls), in the same order.

[@marklovely4966]

The great multitude is Revelation 7:9 but I understand. I really appreciate this discussion years ago I read Marvin Rosenthal's Pre-Wrath Rapture and must admit that it really struck a cord in me! I think that we have seen most of not all of the things spoken of in chapter 6 and the "interlude of chap 7 is kind of where we are. I also agree with Walter Veith when he says the Revelation is written in a chaistic I don't pretend to understand that but have been studying this premise!

[@mikebremer3456]

We haven't seen the rider on the white horse yet, he hasn't been revealed. He will cause all of the other seals to be opened.

[@JAAB9296]

The seals, trumpets and bowls may very well overlap each other. There is solid arguments that claim that could very well happen. Only time is going to tell. By the way, this is a great channel, no hype or sensationalism like many Christian KZbin channels. Jan Markell is a perfect example. Also, her channel comes very close to an informercial. Just saying.

[@19nineteenthirteen19]

I appreciate you my man

[@arliegage1380]

Are we presently living in the end times?

[@troy5659]

Another problem for the Post-Trib view is that scripture says that the Seals, Trumpets, and Bowls are in order / sequential. “And when He opened the seventh seal there was a stillness in heaven for about half an hour. And I saw the seven angels who stood before God, and seven trumpets were given to them.” Rev 8:1-2 “And the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to trumpet.” Rev 8:6 “So the seventh angel trumpeted, and there were loud voices in heaven saying: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!”” Rev 11:15 “And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues-in them the fury of God is completed.” Rev 15:1 “Then one of the four living beings gave the seven angels seven golden bowls filled with the fury of God, the One who lives forever and ever.” Rev 15:7

[@billybroadwater6133]

As a prewrath adherent, Daniel 9 says that 70 weeks are "determined ". Therefore, there will be a full/completed 70 weeks or 2520 days. Therefore, what is cut short in Matthew 24 is the wrath of Satan upon the church. Satan's full reign will last the full 1260 days, from the midpoint to the end of the 2520 days.

[@gregshort2258]

Pre trib teaches that the church is raptured before the anti christ is revealed, so when he is revealed and they haven't been raptured they will not think he is the anti christ because they're still here.

[@judyd.5026]

Very inciteful

[@writenow5]

Very scary to be disillusioned!!

[@joshuadiamaro4415]

That in itself is scary and dangerous,the delusion that our bro and sis believe is heartbreaking and sometimes i feel scared for them

[@mikebremer3456]

That's why it is very important! If you are looking for Christ at any moment, many will be fooled.

[@davidlove21]

It will be obvious to the whole world it’s Christ coming on the clouds on a white steed no less.

[@johnlovorn4641]

Joel, should we not stop using the term rapture and simply refer to it as the resurrection? I'm sure you have thought of this before, so I am wondering your thoughts on why we don't remove the confusion regarding the translation of the living saints at the return of the Lord and call it what it is, the resurrection? Thanks

[@MrDilley777]

Amen brother, I came to the same conclusions in my own personal studies, pre trib is false theology. 😊

[@houseontherock8345]

After looking at Isaiah 5, I started to believe that the resurrection happens but we all remain in our place for a while. He enter’s Jerusalem does some things and than “whistles” for us as it says in that passage. But I’m not sure. I like what Joel said in that, there’s gonna be some things we’re gonna miss lol. The passage also says they’re coming in chariots. I think this may support Joel’s belief about us going up and immediately coming back down.

[@debbiewareing1178]

I’m in same thinking, but not watched this yet.

[@GemstoneActual]

You should concentrate on translating the imagery into realistic terms. Because it's happening, now. Daniel 11:29-30 = Gaza War. Compare to Zechariah 13:7-9, with Psalm 118:26. Daniel 12 Timeline: 5879 ~ "2023"/"5783/4" = +1335; Gaza War 5834 ~ "1978"/"5738/9" = +1290; Camp David Accords 5804 ~ "1948"/"5708/9" = +1260; STATE OF ISRAEL 4544 ~ "0688"/"4373/4" = 0000; Dome of the Rock 3284 ~ "573bc"/"3188/9" = -1260; Ezekiel 40 Vision

[@debbiewareing1178]

I’ve been thinking for a while now that Jesus executes judgement when He returns. I can’t get my head around timing, but it is beginning to look like trumpets and bowls may overlap??? On the other hand…how long are we in the air with Christ? Might some judgements be poured out then??? Just a thought x

[@Docjam23]

which passage of Isaiah 5 in particular? because at least the first part seems to be about the Babylonian captivity, and the last part seems to be an eschatalogical calling all Nations to come against israel, IE like Armageddeon, the Lord gathers all Nations against Jerusalem and God enters into judgement with all of them. I don't see any whistling but that could be a translation difference I use King James.

[@adrinilinjunky]

Can you explain these verses below? These verses seem to state that these saints will be taken from the Tribulation period and will be "IN HEAVEN" and will come back with Jesus at His second coming to execute judgment on the world... (Revelation 7:9-17) “After these things I looked, and behold, (A GREAT MULTITUDE WHICH NO ONE COULD NUMBER, OF ALL NATIONS, TRIBES, PEOPLES, AND TONGUES, STANDING BEFORE THE THRONE AND BEFORE THE LAMB, CLOTHED WITH WHITE ROBES), with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying: “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom, Thanksgiving and honor and power and might, Be to our God forever and ever. Amen.” Then one of the elders answered, saying to me [JOHN], “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?” And I said to him, “Sir, you know.” So he said to me [JOHN], “(THESE ARE THE ONES WHO COME OUT OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION, AND WASHED THEIR ROBES AND MADE THEM WHITE) in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore (THEY ARE BEFORE THE THRONE OF GOD, AND SERVE HIM DAY AND NIGHT IN HIS TEMPLE. AND HE WHO SITS ON THE THRONE WILL DWELL AMONG THEM.) They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.” (Zechariah 14:5) “Thus the Lord my God will come, and (ALL THE SAINTS WITH YOU)” (Revelation 19:14) And the (ARMIES WHICH WERE IN HEAVEN FOLLOWED HIM) upon white horses, (CLOTHED IN FINE LINEN, WHITE AND CLEAN)” [SAME SAINTS OF REVELATION 7:9-17] Key words are “WERE IN HEAVEN” (Jude 14-15) “And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, (THE LORD COMETH WITH TEN THOUSANDS OF HIS SAINTS), To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him”

[@Mike65809]

What makes one think that the wrath we are not destined for is not the trumpets and bowls? Paul was NOT talking about those in 1 Thess. 5:1-3, was he? In context, what wrath was he talking about?

[@Docjam23]

6th seal "the great day of His wrath is come"

[@teej0813]

Exactly. Also, Jesus went to great lengths to explain 'as in the days of Noah' and 'days of Lot'. In both cases, deliverance of God's people and God's judgment/wrath on the wicked happen on the same day. So it seems that the 6th and 7th Seals will occur on the same day. Also of note... the 7th Seal is the first mention of fire.

[@Docjam23]

@@teej0813 yup, both examples have so many layers of meaning, both the character of the world at the time of the wicked (violence, possibly hybridization with angels as some people believe Genesis 6 points to, and homosexuality being widely practiced and spread to children in Genesis 19), how the wicked lived totally normal lives oblivious to coming judgement despite being warned, how believers were treated (mocked/persecuted), God delivering them from the wrath just before it hit by removing them from harm's way Pretrib will claim this is about Revelation 19, but I would say NOBODY is planning weddings during the trumpets and bowls. Post trib *also* has that problem. Who's planning weddings during the trumpets?

[@BobF321]

That was we can at most say 5 months as stated,before the end of trumpets,if considered concurrent

[@brendamartin3444]

•first the seven seals •then each angel steps forward with a trumpet and a bowl and takes their turn one at a time •the first angel with his trumpet and bowl is the tribulation •angels 2-7 with their trumpets and bowls are the wrath •we are here during everything up to angel number two •then we are raptured •the left behind must now pass through the events of angels 2-7 •when all seems lost Christ comes to do battle with the dragon, and those of us who wish to come back with him to help do •when all is finished satan is in his pit and the earth is renewed back to the way it was for Adam and Eve and we spend the rest of our time in the Millennium with Christ until satan is released for his little season Just a thought…

[@Berean_with_a_BTh]

There is no reason to suppose the saints who haven't been martyred by the Beast can't be present in their mortal bodies throughout the outpouring of God's wrath via the seven bowls (which Revelation 16:1-4, 8-12 & 17 all say are poured out by angels, not Jesus). Nor is there any reason to suppose the tribulation has to have ceased beforehand. Moreover, the references to God's wrath in Revelation 6:16-17 are humanity's perception of what is happening, not God's. The NT passages that actually say who *God* does or does not pour His wrath out on are: Matthew 3:7; Luke 3:7; John 3:36; Romans 2:18; 2:5, 8; 3:5; 5:9; 9:22; 12;29; 13:4-5; Ephesians 2:3; 5:6; Colossians 3:5-6; 1 Thessalonians 1:10; 2:16; 5:9; Revelation 11:18; 14:9-10, 19; 16:1-21; 19:11-21. What is clear is that God's wrath is only ever poured out on the wicked (cf. Nahum 1:2), even in the presence of His saints, just as He did when He afflicted the Egyptians but not the Israelites with plagues.

[@joeynelms]

Are you saying there will never be another trumpet blown after the 7th trumpet?

[@damessenjah5402]

I’ve enjoyed the two series that you took us through. Are you going to be able to rope in Dalton to finish Revelation? What’s next? I know what is on the news but regardless some of us still want the equipping to continue to make us better Bible teachers. So, what are your thoughts regarding those who enter the Kingdom? Some think at the judgment to determine the sheep from the goats that only Christians and Jews (both are Saints) enter whereas others believe that it is anyone who helped Jews (and I would say maybe Christians though Jesus does call them His brethren) during the Tribulation and it is not necessary that they be Christian. This judgement would take place in the extended timeline. Thus, all surviving Jews acknowledging that Jesus is messiah are included, all believing gentiles (Church, trib-saints, whomever) are also included and these two groups are in resurrected bodies. Then some think that there is a third group that enters, and they are those who helped the brethren of Jesus, and these would be those who make up the nations. Thoughts? p.s. Still praying for your wife. Any updates.

[@ronwhited1224]

Sorry, but I find it pastorally "irresponsible" to agree that it's ok to teach that we "might" go through the Tribulation. Either we are going thru the GT or we are not. The Bible is clear that we will be here until Jesus returns. Any other teaching is patently false and should be avoided.

[@v3e_]

Can you show exactly where in the Bible it says the word rapture ❓

[@churchclothes1]

Many want to miss the tribulation, but there is a whole bunch of death during that short period of Great tribulation after the Abomination of Desolation. Many martyrs will be saved from the rest of the ‘wrath’ as they are under the altar awaiting the Return of Jesus. At least 1/4 the population dies before Jesus break open the skies.

[@CarltonSutton-x8n]

I dont know much, but I believe a good fit for prewrath is, the scroll with 7 seals is what God allows. (30 minutes silence in heaven the rapture) then the great tribulation . What God sends. Trumpets, Vials

[@shaunclarkson7131]

Ok, here are a few questions about the uncountable multitude. If the throne of David is where Jesus sits, why is it assumed this before the throne group is in heaven, and not before the throne of David in Jerusalem? Why can't this multitude be both the martyr's and the raptured at the time of his return to Jerusalem? The group of Martyrs have moved, from below the throne waiting and crying for judgment, to before the throne praising, so maybe this part of the vision is showing the multitude of belivers on earth before the throne, after the second trimuphant entry. Would love to have some holes punched through this way of reading it.

[@sheilastanaland]

Another reason I've had questions about the pre-trib, concerns the resurrection. The Bible speaks about 2 resurrections. Well, we know that Jesus was resurrected in an immortal body, but he is the only one so far. Doesn't the Rapture HAVE to be the First Resurrection? If the Rapture occurs pre-trib (1st Resurrection) and there are people saved after that, wouldn't there be a need for a 2nd First Resurrection (Rapture) at the end of the Tribulation, in order to supply the Tribulation Saints with immortal bodies?

[@markguertin9711]

Do you preach or teach in Kansas City? I'm in the area and would be interested to attend if possible.

[@1Corinthians15-1]

This man is wrong, he does not rightly divide the word as we are told to do in 2 Timothy 2:15.

[@1Corinthians15-1]

Check out a teaching by Robert Breaker or Gene Kim to dive deep into why pre-trib is historically correct and why one MUST rightly divide to correctly interpret the word of God. ❤✝️❤️

[@CraigKrohn]

Pre-trib doctrine was from a demonic cult from the 1830s. Do not be deceived.

[@RCSNIPER34]

​​@@1Corinthians15-1both of those guys are wrong. Anyone who preaches "king James or nothing" is a sign that they are very close minded and arrogant/ignorant.

[@markguertin9711]

I disagree with your incorrect assessment. @@1Corinthians15-1

[@Docjam23]

Key problems with this idea: 1. Zechariah 9 has the Lord God (Jesus) blow the trumpet, not an angel 2. Isaiah 63 has Jesus on Earth, treading out His wrath, alone. 3. Revelation explicitly has angels pour out the bowls/vials.

[@Bazooka_Sharks]

Joel do you still pastor in olathe ks?

[@AndyWhiteOpenUpTheDoors]

Hi Joel. I basically track with all you said, but I do have a question. You stated here that Jesus Himself (unless I misunderstood you) pours out the bowls of wrath. But Rev. 16 clearly shows its the Angels in sequential order. I was hoping you’d mention that disparity in your thinking but you didn’t address it. I’d be curious to hear your reasoning on that. Personally, I think the only way that is consistent with the text is is view the bowls and trumpets in a concurrent or parallel manner with an element of recapitulation in the narrative. In any case appreciate your ministry and your sincere heart in all you do. God bless. Andy White/Open Up The Doors

[@benny-yj7pq]

Yeshua comes at the 7th bowel, not before, and with the 7th bowel the "wrath" of God is done, accomplished.

[@willpower6720]

⁠ Post Trib rapture is based on scripture. PreTrib rapture is based on conjecture, speculation and misinterpretation of Scripture. Rapture is posttrib and It’s not really debatable. Here are some irrefutable truths. 1. The rapture is AFTER the resurrection. 1 Thessalonians 4. Dead in Christ shall rise first. 2. Jesus said the resurrection is on ‘THE LAST DAY’ over and over and over in John 6. That is the last day of the age of grace. The last day of life without Christ. The last day of the church age. The last day of the New Covenant. The next day starts the millennial kingdom. If the resurrection is ON THE LAST DAY obviously then this means that the rapture is on the last day since the RAPTURE IS AFTER THE RESURRECTION. The rapture is on the last day. 3. The resurrection / rapture is in Rev 20:4. Here we find ‘the last day’. John says he saw the dead come to life. This is the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the rapture is right after it. The rapture is post trib. It is AFTER Rev 5-19. The church goes THROUGH the tribulation. We will not experience Gods wrath just like Israel did not experience Gods wrath when God punished Egypt. And Noah didn’t experience Gods wrath when He flooded the whole earth, but Noah was preserved THROUGH the flood. Not raptured out of it. Israel was not raptured out of Egypt. God will test the church. He will have a pure spotless bride for His Son. Any other position other than a posttrib rapture twists and distorts Gods Word. And then there’s Jesus’ message in Matthew 24:29-31 “But immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days……..And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, ………….And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. ------ Jesus Himself says that He is coming back for His church and will gather it immediately AFTER the tribulation. How can it get ANY CLEARER???? Stop with this false doctrine of a PreTrib rapture. The doctrine of escapism has to be exposed and refuted by the word of God. Too many people planning their escape instead of filling their lamp with oil. Having said this, in Rev 3:10 God promises to keep those who have proven their faithfulness from the hour of testing. Knowing that be so faithful that God keeps you from the tribulation. Remember this promise of Christ is to only ONE of the seven churches in Revelation. One. There are letters to SIX other churches. And remember this verse. Revelation 13:7 It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him. -- God will give Antichrist power to persecute and kill His saints. Sounds crazy but that’s His plan. Don’t let people tickle your ears with anything that’s not the truth. 2 Timothy 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth. Read your Bible. Test your teachers. Reject false teachers. Endure to the end and you will be saved. That’s a promise from God.

[@claytonmcclain182]

Is it wrong to think that God works in a 3, 7, 12, day/ year time line? God bless.

[@donmiles5080]

The one big problem with the pre trib rapture is that it's just nowhere in scripture. That's a really big problem. I believed in a pre trib rapture for many years because it was what they taught at church and no way was I going to not believe what was taught at church. I figured the teachers at church were smart and knew it all. Then I read the Bible for myself and I just couldn't find a pre trib rapture anywhere. It just wasn't there. In fact the post trib rapture was there in the Bible and Jesus Son of God Creator of all things taught it. So I had to change and go with what Jesus and the Bible said no matter what was taught at church.

[@Gazman67]

I think the 3 1/2 or whatever is The Shortening of those days, for if they continued no flesh would remain.

[@dubiousmaximus4201]

something that has always made me question certain teachings from the pulpit. perhaps you all could discuss? 1. a Day in Heaven *is like* a thousand years on earth? it's written that, it IS LIKE, and not IS. yet many use this to calculate the feasts or create timelines of the events of Prophecy. 2. GOD is outside of time and space? but eternity is a measurement of time that spans forever. past, present and future all coexist and are also measurements of time. 3. the great tribulation is the Lords Wrath. however the words in the Greek septuagint have separate means. is the Great Tribulation a separate event from the Lords Wrath? its always been my understanding that tribulation and wrath are separate events. 4. the End of the Age is also the end of the earth. many teach these are one and the same. again its my understanding that many conflate the end of the age with the of the earth.

[@Docjam23]

"Flaming Fire" when's that? After the 7th seal, the angel with the censor, and the first trumpet. There's your flaming fire. I think the main thing for me is seeing that Revelation 19, isn't the second coming.

[@NobleBerean]

Thank you bro, you took the words right out of my mouth. Correct assessment.

[@NobleBerean]

I say we have a fair and balanced public debate between you Joel Richardson (Posttrib)and Nelson Walter's (Prewrath). These videos you've posted Joel are too PostTrib biased and people need more balanced biblical truth than this.

[@2Timothy2.15]

I'm both post-trib and pre-wrath. The “wrath” that the Church is not appointed unto is the “orge” wrath only per the original Greek and is only mentioned 6 times in Revelation and is always in a post-trib context (cf. 1 Thess. 5:9; Rev 6:16-17; 11:18; 14:10; 16:19; 19:15). As such, even if the rapture does not happen until immediately after the tribulation we are still saved from the “orge” of God as promised, yet still present to witness the “thymos” wrath of the first six trumpets and vials/bowls upon Antichrist, Antichrist’s kingdom, and Antichrist’s people. In the “orge” wrath God’s anger will not subside. It will not abate. It is not a punishment to chasten and invoke the wicked to repentance like the “thymos” of God that we see during tribulation - because when the “orge” of God comes it is then too late. Note - Due to the Semitic style of apocalyptic literature employed by John, in addition to many of the specific details that John gives us all throughout Revelation, the seals, trumpets and vials cannot be sequential one after the other. Rather, they are lateral / concurrent events or judgments whereby the seventh of each all end right around the same time in the eschaton - immediately after the tribulation. This is a view that is supported by many teachers and theologians. Jamieson, Fausset & Brown, for example, which is considered by many to be the standard conservative-evangelical work, write in their commentary that “the seven seals, the seven trumpets, and the seven vials, are not consecutive, but parallel, and ending in the same consummation. They present the unfolding of God’s plans for bringing about the grand end under three different aspects, mutually complementing each other.”

[@squirreljones3595]

Every time the pre wrath first resurrection is mentioned, only the saints that overcome the Mark of the beast are mentioned Revelation 15 2 Revelation 20 4 Revelation 7 14 The church rapture is at judgement day John 6 39-54 Jesus says at the Last day four times, it's all there in Revelation 20

[@markmoore3530]

Rapture, false doctrine This message is sent in love. The rapture is a false doctrine and is mainly derived out of 1st Thessalonians. When was this book written, to whom, and what does it say? Written circa 52 A.D. to a church that was present in 52 A.D., this letter was not written to you. In every chapter Paul/Silvanus & Timotheus (authors) tell the church members that Christ is coming ch 1:10, 2:19,3:13,4:15-16,5:23. If you received a letter telling "you" that the Lord was coming 6 times what would you believe? Exactly. When our Lord was being led away to be crucified; Jesus turned to them, saying, “Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. He returned in the first century and destroyed the temple in judgement fulfilling the law. Matthew 16:27-28 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Daniel tells us Rome would be in power when the everlasting kingdom would be established: Daniel 2:44, 7:14, 9:24. Christ quoted from Daniel and told "them" (his audience to whom he was speaking) when "you" see the abomination, not us: When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) The entirety of the New Testament authors all tell their immediate audience that Christ was coming, in their lifetime. Paul, John, James, Peter all say the same thing. Peter tells his audience they will witness the revelation, 1 Peter 1:13 Christ was sent in the last days, Hebrews 1:2 The "last" days were 2,000 years past. Peter said he was living in the last days, Acts 2. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16 The word harpazo is used several times in scripture. It means to be caught/gather/taken, some scholars even insinuate a robbery connotation. So, who was the book of Thessalonians written to? A church When? circa 52 A.D. This letter was not written to you. It does not apply to you. You are not a member of the Church of Thessalonica. In chapter 4, the church members are obviously concerned about what has happened to their members who have already died, physically, verse 13. Why? Paul had already told them 4 times in this letter that Jesus Christ was coming. They were looking for him. In verse 14 Paul is telling them that God will also gather them, the ones who have already died physically. If you die a believer, where do you go to reside? Heaven This is your final abode. Where does Abraham, Isaac and Jacob live? Christ was sent to redeem/restore all things in heaven and the earth. Acts 3 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. Almost all of the prophets talked about the "last/latter" days, this is where the New Testament writers get their doctrine. The last days are defined as the "last days" of their covenant. The saints in heaven are not leaving their abode; they are simply included in the "gathering", which is the resurrection/restoration Paul preached. In verse 15 Paul tells this church, that they were going to "be alive", breathing, when the Lord returned. And obviously they would not precede, go before, the saints who physically died and were already in heaven. The gathering/resurrection/restoration was for all things in heaven and earth. Verse 16 the dead in Christ (a believer who physically died and is now residing in heaven) will be restored/resurrected/gathered first) Why? Christ was sent from heaven by his Father. If you live in heaven, then you obviously will participate in order first. Verse 17 then we which are alive and remain, we (these are breathing Thessalonian church members) Paul told "them" that they would see the coming of the Christ, 6 times in this letter. To "meet" the Lord. Just like harpazo has a meaning, this word meet is apantesis. What does this word infer to a first century person? This word is used for a formal meeting of a dignitary. Everyone in antiquity knew this word meant that a dignitary was coming to your city. They knew this meant that you would send out a welcoming party and usher that dignitary into your city, where they would remain. It never refers to someone coming to your city to get you and take you to a different location. The second coming/resurrection that Paul preached had nothing to do with physical bodies. He tells us in Acts that his doctrine on the resurrection comes from the law and prophets. This message is sent in love, your friend

[@squirreljones3595]

@@markmoore3530 Matthew 24 36 Jesus says no man knows the day except the Father John 6 39-54 Jesus says at the Last day four times Jesus is truth Jesus doesn't make mistakes Jesus is talking about two resurrections Revelation 20 shows two resurrections One is called the first resurrection One is at the Last day Revelation 21 New earth no more days The church rapture is at judgement

[@2Timothy2.15]

@@squirreljones3595 The first resurrection includes all believers in Messiah -- both Old Testament and New Testament -- who "shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years." It includes everyone who died in Him before and during great tribulation.

[@2Timothy2.15]

@@squirreljones3595 As for not knowing the “day or the hour”, many miss the point that Jesus was making in Matthew 24. Look at Revelation 3:3 and pay close attention to what Jesus is saying: Revelation 3:3, “Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. IF therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.” This statement by Jesus uses the exact same language in the verses that many use to state that we can never know (Matt. 24:36; 25:13; Mark 13:32) and reveals something that is very significant and profound: IF we do not watch He WILL come upon us as a thief and we WILL NOT know what hour He will come upon us. If this verse is true, then the inverse must also be true: If we DO watch, He WILL NOT come upon us as a thief, and we WILL know. Jesus does *not* say anywhere in Matthew 24 or elsewhere that we cannot know or will never know. Jesus is merely saying, in the present tense per the Greek, that we do not know *right now* when He will return. A few verses later in Matthew 24:42 Jesus tells us to WATCH for the signs that He just gave us. Why watch? Watch so that we CAN KNOW, because today we do not know the day or hour of His return. His entire point was that it was a BAD THING to not know, which He repeated again in Revelation 3:3, and which the Apostle Paul reiterates for us in his epistle to the church in Thessalonica saying “you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief … Therefore let us not sleep, as others [do], but let us watch …” (1 Thess 5:4-6).

[@BobF321]

Pwrath more comfortable for me,be humble brother&bring in DrCharles Cooper,Orlando&to help both of us,a fair discussion,not debate Would you take us up in this?

[@BendiciendoElHogar]

The sun and the moon will be confused. And we know that the Lord measures the days with the sun and the moon. As the sun and moon are altered, the 1260 days will be shorter days... they will not be 24-hour days. That is what he refers to when he says "the days will be shortened" in that way we reconcile the word because they are effectively 3.5 years... or 1260 days... but shorter. Blessings!

[@sheilastanaland]

One thing that i have thought about for a long time: Jesus fulfilled the 1st 4 Feasts in His first coming. And they were on the EXACT DAYS. Maybe he will fulfill the last 3 at His second coming on the EXACT DAYS. The Bible says that no one knows the day or hour of His return. I have heard that the first fall feast, Rosh Hashanah, is the only feast that is not known ahead of time - it is set to be 2 days because no one knows ahead of time which day it is. Many pre-tribbers are always looking to each Rosh Hashanah because of that reason. But I was thinking, Jesus fulfilled the first feasts in the same year. So, what if the Rapture occurs on the last Rosh Hashanah of the Tribulation? There is still some time before the Day of Atonement (pointing to the defeat of the antichrist), and the Feast of Tabernacles (pointing to the beginning of the Millennium, which also fulfils the Sabbath). But they happen pretty close together. Does anyone think any of this might make sense?y

[@squirreljones3595]

Every time the pre wrath first resurrection is mentioned, only the saints that overcome the Mark of the beast are mentioned Revelation 7 Revelation 15 2 Revelation 20 4 The church rapture is at judgement day It's all there in Revelation 20 John 6 39-54 Jesus says at the Last day four times Jesus is truth keep the faith

[@chriscousineau4537]

Exactly. The rapture takes place as Jesus is descending from Heaven in judgement. 1 and 2 Thessalonians makes this crystal clear.

[@GemstoneActual]

@08:08 - The answer is: Placate God. Also, Psalm 2, with Revelation 12, & Micah 4. Pre-Wrath; Greater Exodus. Look at this, and then watch my TIME video, to know that it's happening, right now: Daniel 11:29-30 = Gaza War. Compare to Zechariah 13:7-9, with Psalm 118:26. Daniel 12 Timeline: 5879 ~ "2023"/"5783/4" = +1335; Gaza War 5834 ~ "1978"/"5738/9" = +1290; Camp David Accords 5804 ~ "1948"/"5708/9" = +1260; STATE OF ISRAEL 4544 ~ "0688"/"4373/4" = 0000; Dome of the Rock 3284 ~ "573bc"/"3188/9" = -1260; Ezekiel 40 Vision Another 1260 back about lines up with Entering Captivity.

[@arliegage1380]

After the 1000 yrs is it at that time new Jerusalem comes down out of heaven? Confused...🤔

[@claytonmcclain182]

Also. Sorry I'm young in the Bible. Why would God Rapture us but then write his name on our foreheads? This is confusing.

[@qztip]

The argument that you can know within 3 days if you are post trib works a lot better if you use the ancient Hebrew calendar rather than the beast’s calendar.

[@kevintopalian3754]

Christians and the 144 thousand Messianic believers have to endure the entire final 7 years? Then we are caught up and brought down with all the saints to live in the millennial kingdom? And in this kingdom we have our immortal bodies? How does that fit with the young man who dies at 100? It seems to me that you hold an almost amillennial view in that the eternal kingdom, the new heavens and new earth begin immediately after the bowl judgements. Is that correct? The main difference is a rapture with a quick up and down, which to me, sounds incredibly depressing, if the fullness of the gentiles has been accomplished and we just passively witnessing all the horrors of the bowl judgements? Am I misunderstanding your view?

[@russelljones2305]

I find it interesting that both Pretribers and Amills have a problem with Revelation 19 and 20 in that John is referencing Daniel 7 that deals with the duration of the antichrists dominions after he is killed by Christ’s appearance and prior to this it speaks of antichrist persecuting the Saints.

[@TheRyno525]

So you just ignore the verses that literally tells us what the bride is? Revelation 21:2. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. Revelation 21:9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.. Seems pretty clear to me.

[@arliegage1380]

I believe this also, the Church is the Body of Christ( Spiritually) Not the Bride!🎉

[@eaglea657]

Revelation 20:4-6 VERY CLEAR❤?

[@allenbrininstool7558]

Revelation 3:10

[@RaptureofSaints]

I know this, Paul the Apostle Prophesied and wrote that when Jesus our Lord Comes and we are Gathered to Meet Jesus, that Man of Sin is destroyed any that same Coming! The Truth is that all that must take place regarding that Man of Sin must be fulfilled before Jesus Comes for the Church for the simple reason is he is Cast into the Lake of Fire at Christs Coming! That Man of Sin will be doing nothing after Jesus has Come and Gathered us all to Meet Him! The Coming of Jesus Christ for the Church is clearly spoken of in Revelation 19 and 20 and that is when we will Partake in the First Resurrection! Its Post Tribulation pre Orge wrath!

[@BobF321]

At Rev.9:5

[@GodsOwnGodZone]

teaching a pre tribulation rapture in a humble manner is not respect to God. It is like saying, ok foolish virgins, its respectable that you didn't prepare for the long night It's fine you have no oil for your lamps It's cool with God you are in darkness. But at the door, your gonna hear these words .... Verily I say unto you, I know you not. .

[@BobF321]

Count from Rev6:17/what falls apart here Rev7b take it happening there before 144,000are sealed at 7a!

[@dan-Michigan]

The days will be cut short for the sake of the elect - Matt 24. Sun will be darkened and moon will not give its light - Why? Because there will be a lot of dust in the air. The moon will be red.

[@Gazman67]

You have to cherry pick to get a pre trib. And if they are right (By god's will not their own) then we would be raptured to Heaven before there is a war in Heaven. Can't imagine a wedding feast or peace in that scenario.

[@teej0813]

Great point. Don't think i've heard this mentioned before.

[@chriseaston4267]

Well brothers and sisters when you study the Tare's and the wheat and lot and Noah you see Jesus says it will be the same when he comes back what happened well for one the none believer was taken out not the believer the evil people were destroyed not Noah the evil were destroyed not Lot they were protected in the wrath of God it'll be the same on the last day the meek inherit the earth

[@BobF321]

What does greek say?

[@BoutTimeProphecy]

16:18 Ironically, this stems from the very anti-semetic theology (that you are working to dismantle) that drops and forgets about the significance of the Feasts of the Lord. After the replacement theology started getting traction around 200-300 ad, the celebration of the "feasts of the Lord" were considered "feasts of the Jews" and quickly dropped and forgotten. The time-keeping aspect of these holidays has been forgotten. God's word has many "Time Trackers" in them: Jubilees and Sabbbath years, prophetic timelines (Daniel), the 7 holy feast days, and dating throughout scripture. The "day or hour no one knows" mentioned by Jesus in Matthew 24, is not a statement but an idiom, which is why he says "OF > the day or hour no one knows". The TIMING of all the 7 holy feast days, depended on tracking days past the sight of the new moon, except ONE FEAST DAY. One of the feasts started on the first sighting of the moon (at night) and was the first of the month. The watchmen would watch for the sighting: either 29 days past the last new moon or 30 days, since the lunar cycle is 29.5 days. So the president of the Sanhedrin would not know which day to announce the holiday until two witnesses reported the moons sighting. Because of the difficulty in predicting which day (29th or 30th) would be the start of the month of Tishrei, an idiom was said calling the start of the new year and new month: THE DAY OR HOUR NO ONE KNOWS. When it was sighted, trumpets were blown throughout the land. It was a day of trumpet blowing so all would know the new year had begun. It was Yom Teurah, the day of blowing. Back then they could not know which day the holiday would begin, but we can today with Astronomy software and Nasa's lunar calculated schedule. Gabriel told Daniel that the timing wouldn't be known "UNTIL THE TIME OF THE END." When men would go to and fro, and knowledge would increase. A whole theology on that phrase has been built with people wrongly quoting Jesus as saying "We can't know the day or hour." Matthew 24:36 is an answer to the disciples questions. Read any good book on the 7 feasts of God and you'll hear the author talk about the first 5 spring feasts having fulfillment in Jesus at his first coming. Read a great book on the 7 feasts and they will talk about how the fall feasts have future implactions at Jesus' 2nd coming. If Magi could find the timing of Jesus' first advent through scripture, why are we holding on to ideas that prevent finding the timing of Jesus' second advent?

[@handles617]

Not to mention, to even come up with a pre trib rapture out of verse 36, you have to claim that Jesus suddenly changes timeframes, which has no basis. A normal reading would give you the conclusion that he is referencing what he discussed just beforehand

[@alanlietzke5738]

The "Coming" of the Lord Jesus (2Th 2:1) is singular, indeed, always singular (Mt 24:3, 27, 37). This categorically excludes all rapture timings, which require two 2nd "Comings". Furthermore, "The living...will never precede the fallen-asleep [dead]" (1Th 4:15), particularly those to be raised within "The Last Day" (Jn 6:39-40,44,54). Accordingly, the living will never be raptured, until after the Resurrection of the Righteous (Lk 14:14), within "The Last Day"

[@teej0813]

Maybe. But if so, what event do you think constitutes his first coming? conception? birth? baptism? death? resurrection? Isn't the whole sequence of events part of his first coming? Why would his second coming be any different? Wouldn't it also be a sequence of events?

[@mscottharwell]

Post great tribulation is also pre wrath ... Prewrath has same issue as pretrib with Rev 20 and 1 Cor 15 re the resurrection I refuse to use the little r word .... THE word is Resurrection and GATHERED

[@Post-Trib]

I just have it the name I use. The 1st resurrection or rapture is immediately after the tribulation of those days but before the wrath of God. When the 2 witnesses are called up that's the 1st resurrection or rapture of the dead in Christ 1st then we who are alive and remain. It's not about knowing the day or the hour but the event

[@BobF321]

5th seal saints get robes together with those in 1st resurrection

[@chriskelly4751]

Rev 5:5-6:1, who starts the Wrath of God, the Lamb as though He had been slain, the Wrath is to turn Israel back Yeshua Hamashiach, Jesus does not abuse His bride. Even 1st century fathers believed in a pre tribulation harpazo.

[@toots4jesus]

There are angels that pour out the bowls of of anger. The wrath is not what everyone refers to as the bowls of wrath it’s not wrath of God at all. The wrath is poured out by Jesus so knowing that then we know without question angels don’t pour out the wrath of God it’s for God alone to do. So the angels given the bowls are the same angels given the trumpets and vials Jesus opens the seals and gives the angels the duties of pouring out judgment upon the earth and because the people refuse to repent, the anger of God is built up into wrath. With the third degree of judgment the wrath of God comes to its completion meaning, by the time the last vial or bowl is poured out that last drop of blood of His saints is the straw that broke the camels back. The wrath is not the bowl judgments

[@toots4jesus]

The book of revelation is not chronological at all. But with endless study some fasting and prayer it suddenly becomes clear.

[@seasquawker]

Luke 17:29-30 says that as Lot was taken out of Sodom the same day that fire and brimstone rained down from heaven, even so will it be when the Son of Man is revealed. This is the best evidence for a 6th seal rapture. Not only does the innumerable multitude in Revelation 7:9 line up with the gathering of the elect in Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27, and the redemption in Luke 21:25-28 after the signs in the sun, moon, and stars we also see in Revelation 6:12-14, but we also see this innumerable multitude is also taken out of the tribulation just before the first instance of fire from heaven with the first trumpet in Revelation 8. So all the elements are here. Even the revelation of the Son of Man in Revelation 6:16 with which all the tribes of the earth mourn and/or are fearful. Matthew 24:30, Luke 21:26-27. If the comparison to Lot is to be understood as representing the rapture, then it needs to occur before the fire from heaven....but even also on the same day. We see only a half an hour separates events from the 6th seal to the first trumpet according to the 7th seal in Revelation 8. So this works. If the innumerable multitude are all martyrs, then how do they look up for their redemption in Luke 21:28? You can't look up if you're dead. That's something only a living person can do. Mark 13:27 also makes a distinction not found in Matthew's Olivet Discourse. Here at the signs in the sun, moon, and stars, the gathering of the elect is of all those in heaven and on earth. That has to be the resurrection (those in heaven), and the rapture (those still living on earth). This also matches Ephesians 1:10. And the redemption in Ephesians 1:14 should be the same one we read about in Luke 21:28. Hebrews 11:39-40 also should help make this crystal clear. We all receive the promise together. They (the dead) will not be made perfect apart from us (the living). This even includes old testament saints here in Hebrews 11....going all the way back to Abel in Genesis. So, no separating of old testament saints and new or separating Jews and Gentiles... Rahab was a gentile right? And she's in this list too.