Presbyterian Denominations Tier List

[@josee18]

So finally someone who thinks of me. I too, being raised Presbyterian UPC and now PCUSA, confirmed in the denomination have found it appalling to say the least what is happening in our denomination, and what others consider Presbyterian. First of all, listen well to this guy!! My church as a child had strong ties with the mother Church of Presbyterians in Scotland which is the Church of Scotland and particular St Giles Cathedral. All these off shoots of modern day Presbyterians are not Presbyterian in my mind, I do not give a rats you know what if they say they are. They are nothing but, as he explained here modified and Reformed Baptists. Presbyterians are NOT Baptist, not close to Baptist. We differ on government, our understanding of Salvation, there belief in their ordinances which we call Sacraments are totally different. We DO NOT BELIEVE its just a memorial!! We actually believe in pneumatic Real Presence which Anglicans and Methodist share as well. We baptize infants and do not believe that is just some kind of act, and you need to do it as a consenting adult for salvation. So I have been Presbyterian most all my life, christened as a baby Methodist and then later Presbyterian and confirmed in that denomination. Look at who the PCUSA is in full communion with, and you will not notice any of these offshoot Presbyterians. I do not give a rip if they call themselves that. Their core beliefs, worship and idea of Confessions of the church are not what we hold. I am all for church tradition. We have to remember, that John Knox- The Church of Scotland ( Presbyterian) broke from the Roman Catholic, we are not an offshoot of Anglicans like Methodist, we are actually siblings with Anglicans and Lutherans and the such. I am all for tradition and voices like this. Perhaps people, especially in these free flowing Presbyterian denominations need to see and understand what real Presbyterianism is about!! I am going to leave a link for St Giles Cathedral where you can watch services. Also a link on our beliefs. I have never been comfortable in these modern day PCA or OPC churches, in my mind, they are not truly real Presbyterians. BTW we have only named a few, there are many break offs. Now also the Cumberland which was not mentioned is also a great Presbyterian denomination, and many are traditional. These other ones , in my opinion should take out the name Presbyterian and go by something else, they truly do NOT follow our tradition. Some do not even have a Confession of Sin in the service, even before Communion some do not recite the Lords Prayer, Apostles or Nicene Creed, Do not wear Clerical robes/vestments do not have an Order of Worship, and the list goes on. Those in my mind are NOT TRUE and TRADITIONAL PRESBYTERIANS. This guy, said it and articulated it well. We need to not stray away from tradition. www.stgilescathedral.org.uk/9723-930 www.presbyterianmission.org/what-we-believe/

[@calebunderhill2456]

Thank you for sharing. I am a cumberland presbyterian in Tennessee. I have been trying to dive to my denomination in the last year or so. I feel like most of the traditional things you mentioned are along what we believe. We've stood strong against lgbtq stuff. I have also had women pastors. We are very involved in outreach outside of the country. I enjoyed your video.

[@parkercampbell3012]

Professional yapper 🗣️🗣️🗣️

[@hilohilo9539]

Are you really trying to say that the established church of Scotland is the true Presbyterian church? So, I'm guessing that you hate the Free church and the Free Presbyterians then, even though the Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland is the true heir of the title Church of Scotland. Why do you act like the reciting of the apostle's creed or Nicene creed are historic practices? You can read the original directory of public worship for yourself and see that these practices find no history in the church until it began becoming liberal. Do you also believe that we should have musical instruments in worship, and uninspired hymns? If so, you are the one that is out of place in the historic Presbyterian church, not us who still hold to these things.

[@josee18]

@@hilohilo9539 Hi there, so I am not here to argue with you or create chaos. I am just telling you what history tells. I am quite learned on this topic, in my 60s, so I really truly do not need some talk as if I do not know what I am talking about. First if are reformed and followed John Calvin, you wll realize that his liturgy on the Lords day that included Holy Communion always recited the Apostles Creed, if you do not believe it read u p on it. Also, I want to answer your questions. Regarding the Church of Scotland as the true mother church of Presbyterians, yes that is what I have said. It was started by John Knox. I do not give a peep about churches that broke away, because many do when they do not agree with something, or they think its not scriptural enough. I am no Puritan, I am not a Presbyterian that is Puritan nor broke away from the mainline churches. So you cannot convince me. I am a true Presbyterian that is confessional. And the true mainline Presbyterian Churches including the Church of Scotland are a confessional church. Oh here you go for John Calvins Order of Worship back in the 1500's. Calvin’s Order of Worship for Communion Call to worship Confession of Sin / Absolution The Ten Commandments (sung) (In Calvin’s preparation of a metrical tune) Psalm (sung) The Word Read from the OT or NT Prayer for Illumination Preaching of the Word Sermon Prayer of Intercession Apostle’s Creed (sung) (In Calvin’s preparation of a metrical tune) The Lord’s Supper Prayer of Thanksgiving Psalm (sung) or Song of Simeon (sung) Blessing

[@hilohilo9539]

​@@josee18 The binding directory of public worship in the Presbyterian church is the Westminster Directory of Public Worship. Ministers are to order the worship of God after the pattern set down by that directory, and that is the way worship was directed in the church from the time of the writing of the directory up until the mid 1800's when certain churches began abandoning it in favor of new innovations such as hymns, musical instruments, and the reciting of creeds on the Lord's Day (though you may not believe it to be an innovation, as Calvin did do this, the Presbyterians in Scotland did not). Presbyterian worship was noticeably less liturgical long ago than it is today in most of the churches of the state Presbyterian Church (which St. Giles is a part of). On the issue of the reciting of creeds before communion, the Westminster Directory makes no mention of a recitation of the Apostles creed before the supper. You may not like the directory, but it is still the directory which all Scottish Presbyterian churches are to use. Also (now this is just a question), if you think that the state church has always been the right church in Scotland, then was it still the proper Presbyterian church during the years that it was forced into being Anglican in the 1600's, and that the national covenant and covenanting movement was wrong?

[@chessplayer6632]

Just an idea, a video summarizing historic Christian heresies could be very interesting

[@dubiouswatermelon159]

^^^^

[@1988casco]

Put them on a tier list!

[@LatinoAmericanoPobre]

​@@1988cascoArianism - S tier

[@korokleafgaming6863]

Hundred percent 🙌

[@LatinoAmericanoPobre]

Or arianism spin off: Jeovah Witness

[@Deathsquadstudios4]

Zoomer, you might not see this but your videos honestly helped me find God. 26 years old surely haven't been pious, but I know through Him, all will be forgiven. Thank you for inspiring me.

[@redeemedzoomer6053]

God bless you! So happy to hear that. SOLI DEO GLORIA

[@Deathsquadstudios4]

@@redeemedzoomer6053 God bless you also. Christianity is such a motivation and driving force for structure and motivation to do better in your life, at least for me, and I feel like that's an issue people don't really talk about much. When you strive to be good in God's eyes, you also do better in your fellow human's eyes.

[@nickjames6813]

I implore to you make a video on: -how to pray(to whom? When?) -how to repent(what for? Penance?)(What if I forgot something?) -etc. Essentially: HOW TO be a Christian

[@redeemedzoomer6053]

sure, good idea

[@nickjames6813]

@@redeemedzoomer6053 THANK YOU! SOLI DEO GLORIA!

[@LucasSFC02]

@@redeemedzoomer6053 also one on how to worship

[@nuggets8028]

@@nickjames6813 bro is jumping for joy lol

[@Zuperlion74]

​@@redeemedzoomer6053make your minecraft server for bedrock please.

[@potatomahonman5008]

I would consider any church which ordains women to be progressive. Being conservative on a handful of other issues doesn’t change that.

[@redeemedzoomer6053]

In our culture, where even most Republicans (like Trump) are for gay marriage, being opposed to LGBTQ automatically makes you conservative

[@mudbrick6083]

@@redeemedzoomer6053could you talk about LCMS? Do you know about them and their history?

[@Countercommie]

Curious about your view of the ARPC. I am PCA, but I have richly enjoyed an ARPC while traveling.

[@parrsaw]

Bro destroyed the theology of half of the modern Christians in the first 25 seconds

[@TheSwiftCreek2]

A pastor who does not believe Jesus literally rose from the dead is a false shepherd, a wolf.

[@redeemedzoomer6053]

of course, that's why I'm trying to stop them

[@mattosamanandesu]

I'm so happy you included us in the RPCNA! I actually visited that pretty white church in the bottom right corner last month. I promise that we're not cold, but actually quite warm and welcoming. No "frozen chosen" here!

[@captainneeda1980]

“…people converting to Catholicism and Orthodoxy on mass” no pun intended lol.

[@jethrogibbs3800]

I was a degenerate, atheistic twenty-three year old alcoholic in a jail cell for a DUI when a young, quietly charismatic OPC pastor came and administered a service to the five or six of us who joined. It was an amazing experience. He left me with "Putting Amazing Back Into Grace" by Michael Horton, along with an ESV Bible, with reading suggestions. Later, I reached out, and he brought me the Westminster. Upon release, I met with the pastor in person and we discussed the goings on of Christ and culture. I even went to his church, Providence OPC in Southfield, MI. The tenor was very serious, and the style, unadorned. I wasn't ready for it because my intentions were not set right. That day is set apart. I was still too worldly to get it. It wasn't about me. Even so, I've never forgotten that experience and the generosity of the pastor. I've always felt like God was doing a work through him to call unto me.

[@lizzsszzy7800]

I'm glad to hear your story. I feel like RZ gives OPC a bad name over often materialistic/cultural issues.

[@mmtoss6530]

The historical Baptist (not anabaptist) view was spiritual presence. I believe what happened was that a lot of low church views infected the baptists churches (and many other churches as well) after the 2nd great awakening which promoted restoration instead of reformation. The Baptist movement already had some restorationist attitudes, however, at one point, many Baptists were high church and believed in real presence.

[@lesinge8868]

My area still has its share of Baptist churches that, by architecture alone at least, seem to be fairly traditional. But most Baptist churches here are low-church, unfortunately.

[@wesmorgan7729]

I grew up Baptist and never knew this until Dr. Ortlund mentioned it, which totally stunned me. I'd be curious to read in depth why that change. I also read that early Baptists used wine instead of grape juice, which makes sense with it being before the Temperance Movement.

[@lesinge8868]

@@wesmorgan7729 Grape juice is also a very recent invention that didn’t exist for the first 200 years of Baptist history.

[@mmtoss6530]

@@lesinge8868 now when I mean high-church, I’m not referring to the liturgy of the Lutherans or Anglicans. Baptist worship was still simplistic, but no smoke machines or Zwinglism.

[@lesinge8868]

@@mmtoss6530 Oh alright. That makes sense.

[@mmtoss6530]

EPC-ECO merge. ARP, OPC, and PCA merge. ECO becomes complimentarian and merges with PCA. PCA now has better view of sacraments. PCUSA becomes conservative and merges with the PCA. I like PCA over PCUSA, so the PCA brand would take over.

[@arthurrytuz4855]

So everything is PCA?

[@mmtoss6530]

@@arthurrytuz4855 the name and logo would be PCA, the head would be and new structure of all the different denominations

[@redeemedzoomer6053]

I love this, except I think PCUSA logo is better than PCA.

[@LatinoAmericanoPobre]

@@redeemedzoomer6053 Dude, even here in Brazil people talk badly about Pcusa. I think it would be wiser to abandone the name and the logo, just accepting the pca identity

[@mmtoss6530]

@@redeemedzoomer6053 that’s where we disagree 😂

[@memeboi6017]

Would love a video about sexual sin, it’s an underdiscussed topic in my opinion since it’s so incredibly prevalent, but you don’t hear many people actually discussing it and how to combat it on an interpersonal and societal level. I am in middle school, and it is incredibly surprising how much sex is discussed, and how many people dress and act immodestly. (I mean it kinda makes sense my school district is really leftist, but still)

[@wesmorgan7729]

I think it's mostly to do with entering puberty, which is when kids have sexual thoughts. Middle school and high school can be difficult times with lust so strong my man.

[@jimluebke3869]

A better approach these days might be to talk about the constructive approach Christianity has to sex. There are enough people who have suffered from infidelity / divorce / broken families / abuse by unrelated adults in the home, and it's becoming increasingly obvious what a problem demographic collapse is likely to be, that people are interested in hearing what kind of positive structure the Law can give to your life. Now, it's undoubtedly the highest blessing to be redeemed from the status of lawbreaker. We should still consider, though, how we live in this world, and the psalmists praised the Law for a reason.

[@umamigorl]

If you’re still looking for resources I recommend the channel Men on Mission. Convicting and practical takes that are arguably applicable to both men and women for a variety of sin struggles

[@jankragt7789]

@@wesmorgan7729 No. Your beliefs are is not necessarily correct. Sex is being treating as an all-encompassing thing. The adults & their movements are leading in this. Certainly NOT helping. This student ? was saying something quite different and you as an adult are overriding her.

[@oleksandrbyelyenko435]

In Europe all protestants have churches and cathedrals. My school is located on Lutheran street. And the street is named so because it starts with Lutheran church.

[@mr.starfish4965]

Ranking other traditions of denominations would be interesting (ie Lutheranism, Anglicanism, etc).

[@wesmorgan7729]

I think there's parallel Anglican bodies which is interesting

[@Nonz.M]

I believe the channel Scholastic Lutherans have done a denomination ranking already.

[@josee18]

Well the tanking is simplistic if you are talking about the mainline denominations as a whole. They would be Episcopal or Anglican- Lutheran- Mainline Presbyterian such as PCUSA/ Mainline Reformed- Methodist-UCC-Baptist- Nazarene/ Holiness- Pentecostal/ Holiness

[@trainsupporter9088]

Thanks so much, brother, for another excellent video. You are building up treasures in heaven, brother!

[@danoctavian8184]

26:10 They have: the foundation fo Westminster theological seminary in Philadelphia for which many reformed denominations are thankful for

[@thesunnycommonplace]

OPC was the church God used to draw me to him and reformed theology(in the deep South of all places). You need to visit an OPC church before you pass judgment, imo. They were more warm and welcoming than the PCA church I attend now, and do far more community outreach as well. The OPC churches around us join up with PCA churches to do conferences. I may be biased bc I loved my OPC family, but I think your broad swaths can be damaging, especially if you have no personal experience with them.

[@devinklanderson]

Not only that, Westminster Theological Seminary has had a big impact on the Christianity as a whole. Specifically in some of the theologians and pastors it has produced, not to mention its involvement in the CCEF.

[@juandoming6688]

He scoffs at any bible believing church if they are within a five mile radius of a waffle house

[@barbaramanley80]

You seem so focused on the style of the building. I am former member and elder in a PCUSA church who remembers more time spent on discussions about the buildings and grounds than about the spiritual needs of the congregation and outreach to the community. I heard a pastor who was to be installed as a pastor in a church within our presbytery say he did not believe in bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ. Even with the blasphemy, he was still installed. How can you rank a church that allows heresy to be ranked superior. I say this as a life long Presbyterian in the church that became the PCUSA. I am female. I have just become a member in an OPC church plant. It's the warmest group I have encountered in 50 years of church membership coupled with sound doctrine, meaningful, traditional hymn singing and authentic,instructive, meaningful and sacred presentation of the elements in communion. Our pastor is extremely well read and instructive. He reverently and passionately preaches only the Word. I am delighted to be receiving the meat of the Word rather than milk. I invite you to visit our church. We meet in the teen center in Thousand Oaks, CA.

[@HarmonNutma]

fr, I feel like he kinda just disrespected a group of Christians, nothing Christian about that

[@rhys09876]

I completely agree with your views on PCUSA and PCA. Sadly, there are no moderate PCUSA churches near me and there are no ECO churches, only PCA and Cumberland. I am going to visit a PCA church this upcoming Sunday. God bless!

[@danoctavian8184]

depends on where you are, try URCNA or RCUSA

[@rhys09876]

@@danoctavian8184 Thanks, I’ll look into it.

[@johnking9161]

@@rhys09876 Are you in Birmingham Alabama?

[@rhys09876]

@@johnking9161 Nope 😂😂

[@johnking9161]

@@rhys09876 well good luck finding a Good Church! I also would suggest the Reformed Episcopal Church in the ACNA.

[@TheTenCentStory]

I question how much a person reads the bible if they don't believe they need church and only need the bible. Reading the bible would explain why you need church.

[@fighterofthenightman1057]

@Joelcjr That’s not good, but it’s better than a hand waving revivalist thing with drums and electric guitars … that’s practically another religion.

[@fighterofthenightman1057]

@Joelcjr It’s these new “Bible” churches with the creepy contemporary worship styles, though. Mainline is way better than that.

[@hilohilo9539]

@@fighterofthenightman1057 I'm not so sure that the mainline is any better than them. Many of them sing hymns with instrumental accompaniment, which is no more following of scripture than the contemporary worship. Scripture commands the singing of Psalms, not hymns written by man. "Is any merry? let him sing psalms," (James 5:13). “Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;” (Ephesians 5:19). These same Greek words for psalms, hymns and spiritual songs appear in the titles of the psalms in the Greek Septuagint translation of the Old Testament.

[@colmortimer1066]

While I agree in theory, but so many modern churches, at least the ones I have been finding around me, have a lot of heresy. Is it better to read your bible and learn on your own, or go to a church that preaches against many of the laws and traditions that make Christianity what it is?

[@jessiem1127]

love to hear you talking about ECO!

[@TheDCinSC]

Before becoming an Anglican I was a Presbyterian for thirty years -- born and baptized in the Presbyterian Church (U.S.), the old Southern Presbyterian Church, amalgamated into the PCUSA in 1983, departed for the ARP in 1993. Your point about the strength of the Scots Confession is valid, but in the PCUSA you also have to accept the Confession of 1967 in the Book of Confessions. While I share your convictions about women clergy, the chances for a candidate in the PCUSA who holds those convictions are practically nonexistent. If Walter Wynn Kenyon was still alive I'd encourage you to ask him about his experiences. Finally, as a Southerner, I find your attitude toward those from our region dismissive, to include the sarcastic accent.

[@JerryLiuYT]

As someone that left the Presbyterian Denomination, I'm so glad you're making this. Really appreciate all the work you're doing for Christianity.

[@Nonz.M]

Which denomination did you join?

[@UnderMyPalm]

We all want to know!

[@zaphodmartibrox]

Minus the F-tier row, this tier list is really just a ranking of which denominations on average have the church buildings that Redeemed Zoomer likes the most.

[@redeemedzoomer6053]

what can I say? Buildings are an outward sign of cultural connections

[@TheAnbyrley]

​@@redeemedzoomer6053 Beauty is one of the three transcendentals. It is a route to God.

[@DocOmally101]

I'm not Christian but I watch your videos because I am attracted to autistic nuance in hobbies and vocations.

[@baldingrecedingbowlcutmull2313]

was that english

[@pigbimpin4151]

@@baldingrecedingbowlcutmull2313 yes

[@baldingrecedingbowlcutmull2313]

@@pigbimpin4151 wrong

[@baldingrecedingbowlcutmull2313]

gee squidward, maybe santa will bring me a dictionary so I can understand what you just said!

[@Mattenz1776]

Sir you've unfairly characterized the OPC. We don't have a huge impact because we're a small denomination, but we punch our weight as far as evangelism and outward ministry is concerned. Please visit an OPC church some time.

[@ReformedProtestant]

Amen brother, In fact I’d argue that the OPC punches well above its weight in terms of cultural influence and evangelism considering its size!

[@stassmykla8130]

Next RZ video: 'I changed my mind about OPC, I visited an OPC church for the first time'

[@Mattenz1776]

@@stassmykla8130 bro spot on 😆

[@jimluebke3869]

RZ wanted to kiss the screen when he read about their theology? He's about to go Orthodox for sure.

[@hildegardnessie8438]

Or even better, Eastern Catholic.

[@angelashort1331]

All performance based and is completely undone when an expletive is used to describe his reaction , F n kiss the screen , is a low expression and does not fit at all , That's why I know , man needs to let God clean up His Called out ones , and HE IS DOING JUST THAT , , ❤

[@colecarstarphen8743]

Just started and we already introduced quantum mechanics into a teirlist

[@redeemedzoomer6053]

each PCUSA church is simultaneously based and cringe until you go inside it

[@stanthebamafan]

I grew up in a hardcore leftist PCUSA church, then after 15 years of not going to church, I found myself in a PCA church. There’s no question that the PCA church I now go to is much better in every way. The PCUSA church taught us lots of heresies. They didn’t emphasize the Westminster confession at all. Also the church got hijacked by the LGBTQ community to the point where it became known as one of the foremost gay churches in the country. So glad to be PCA now. I haven’t noticed any of the criticisms you have in my PCA church. We take the sacraments seriously and my pastor is very clear about why we do infant baptism.

[@ianlamont8025]

Thanks!

[@thecovenantheritage8120]

The OPC doesn’t want denominational institutions because they will often sway the denominational politics in its direction (ie Princeton in the 20s to the PCUSA). It remains small on purpose because it wants to maintain its distinctives. It had the opportunity to join the PCA and said no, the URCNA wanted to merge with it, but it said no. This is because it wants to remain true to what makes it unique (delegated assembly, Van Tillian apologetics, Westminster fidelity etc.) instead it provides support and resources to these new denominations it helped form. The Trinity Hymnal and Trinity Psalter Hymnal were both projects that the OPC partnered and oversaw for other new denominations (ie the PCA and URCNA). Great Commission Publications was started by the OPC and PCA to offer resources to other Reformed denominations so that there would be resources for conservative Presbyterian churches. Westminster Theological Seminary was started by Machen but never became a denominational seminary because the OPC wanted it to stay independent so that if the denomination went left the seminary would be guarded against that (and vis versa). Everything the OPC does isn’t to stay isolated, but a lot of the work the OPC does is behind the scenes and in the halls of the General Assembly’s of other denominations. Its influence is as a mentor to other startups. The Reformed Church of NZ was greatly influenced by the OPCs help and resources at its founding, so was the PCA and URCNA. In my opinion it is one of the better denominations out there.

[@jankragt7789]

Wow. What a testimony. Well said.

[@DanteInfernski22]

I will be checking out a biblical PCUSA church in my town this upcoming Sunday. I would have never considered the PCUSA until I learned about you and your movement.

[@jasonmoncusgundinamo1811]

Reformed presby here. Keep it up man. I’m in the PC USA too let’s work on it. I’m not giving up

[@graysonheichel3016]

This is very informative. Please do tier lists for the other major denominations as well!

[@darreljones8645]

My father, for over a decade, worked as a United Methodist pastor in various Midwestern cities and towns. In the late 1970's, he was in a small Iowa city with five churches. The other four were, by denomination, Roman Catholic, Presbyterian, Congregationalist/ United Church of Christ, and Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod. Once a year, the pastors of all five churches, except the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod, would take part in a joint service. My father asked the Lutheran minister why he wouldn't do it, and the response was, "Because it would show I agree with what you are doing."

[@fighterofthenightman1057]

Would LOVE this for the traditional Protestant groups like Lutherans, Methodists, etc.

[@josee18]

Excuse me, who do you think he was talking about here. Traditional mainline Protestants are the following Anglicans/ Episcopalian, Lutherans, Reformed/ Presbyterians/ Methodists, Congregationalists, American Baptists. - So you were not paying attention to his coverage on Presbyterians who are traditional Protestants. OMG. Lol

[@patrickmccutcheon9361]

@@josee18I think he meant the other mainline Protestant churches.

[@bryanbaez4412]

I can’t believe you gave ECo an A and OPC a D. That’s insane

[@setheroshevich9009]

As someone who grew up in an EPC, and still being a member of one, i actually fully agree with your ranking. Each church can be wildly different, and that brings it down a little to me.

[@JtotheG317]

Non-denoms be like: there was early church then 1900 years later Jim Bob's Nondenom church finally got it exactly right! ECO be like: there was the early church then 1900 years later we finally got women's ordination right!

[@FraterAlex]

I am somewhat surprised the Cumberland Presbyterian Church was not on the list.

[@josee18]

The Would be somewhere between a PCUSA and PCA

[@timothysullivan1669]

“The PCA is my favorite baptist denomination” had me rolling. I go to school in the Bible Belt, so the church choices are like Catholic, Baptist, Baptist, Baptist, Non-denom (but really baptist), and PCA. Now, I actually don’t go to any of those. I go to the new baptist church plant, because that’s what the city needed: another baptist church.

[@hollyjollyg1ngy804]

us zoomers in the discord definitely contributed to that southern voice😂

[@ccrmag]

Lol you’re the best unbiased person for these kinds of videos. I laughed at the beginning

[@ImStuckInStockton]

The ECO congregation here in San Antonio has a beautiful 100 year-old gothic revival church and hosts 2 traditional + 2 modern services.

[@arcbueno1]

Here in Brazil, the bigger presbyterian denomination IPB (Igreja Presbiteriana do Brasil/ Brazil Presbyterian Church) was founded by PCUSA missionaries but the IPB cut the connection when the PCUSA started ordering women as pastors and etc. The IPB still conservative, but every year some synod tries something like order women as deacon (I don't know the correct word for Diácono/Diaconós) but it never passes. About the traditionalism, like liturgy, pastores wearing robes, etc, it will depends on the region. For example, in the northeast region, it is kind hard to find a church following the liturgical calendar (advent, pentecost...) because of the heavy presence of the Catholic Roman Church so the protestant churches avoid to be like the roman church in many ways (much of them I disagree), including, when I started wearing a cross pendant some people told me that I looked like an Catholic Roman.

[@Bythegraceofgod1646]

I belong to a PCA church in NJ & am so glad it is absolutely nothing like you said they tend to be. I didn’t even know these trends exist in the PCA because we hold the historical Presbyterian view of both sacraments and a high view of worship with traditional liturgy. I know you said there are exceptions, but just commenting to confirm this since it is possible a PCA church may be the only solid Presbyterian church near you.

[@GarrettTheFool]

Attending a PCA church this Sunday... from what I heard after emailing the pastor, I am optimist about their theology, worship, and values! Hoping for a good experience.

[@Bythegraceofgod1646]

@@GarrettTheFool Since I am 2 weeks late to reply, let me ask - how did your visit at the local PCA church go?!

[@GarrettTheFool]

@Bythegraceofgod1646 I actually ended up going for a Lutheran Church as I felt it matched my theology better. What drew me in is actually both the liturgy (they seemed more traditional and beautiful) as well as the outer and inner beauty of the Church. I've been attending this Lutheran Church for 3 weeks now and absolutely loving it. The pastor does an amazing job, the hymns are beautiful and lovely, the sermons are beautiful, informative, and beneficial. I found my home in the Lutheran Church :) Also I found out Presbyterian Church's don't quite align with my views/theology as much as I'd like, Lutheranism is closer

[@Bythegraceofgod1646]

@@GarrettTheFool Praise God! Happy to hear it! I’m glad you found a local body of Christ matching your personal convictions & conscience. That is what matters. May God bless the ties that bind you in love to His church. 🙏

[@josee18]

I think what he said is actul and factual. There are a handful of PCA churches that are liturgical and traditional, but as a whole the PCA has allowed a type of Baptist type of low church and almost " Born Again" feel in their churches. Research the internet. Perhaps you could be a voice to getting the PCA back on track. When they hear parishoners saying enough is enough..than they start making changes. If not, you will truly be no longer a reformed denomination, it will start to feel more and more baptist.

[@daniellightsey5583]

The southern accent kills me every time (as someone who is from Texas) 🤣

[@welredd]

ARP guy here, haven’t started the video yet but It’s crazy to see our tiny denomination on YT. I’m interested to see what you have to say, will edit with my response. Edit: first I want to say, great video. I’m a Zoomer myself and this is one of the first 30 minute videos I’ve watched all the way through in a while. I agree with the B tier rating, I would say A tier but I think a good point is made that ECO has more traditional churches. For example, my church which I’ve grown up in is just in the building of an Lutheran Church that was probably built in the 70s or 80s, though our congregation has been around for a whopping 185 ish years. Another thing is that there is one difference between the ARP and the PCA, a minor one but it’s there. In the ARP we ALLOW women to be deacons, although this is at the discretion of each individual church congregation. This is because it’s a servant role and not a leadership role. But overall, a good analysis and I will definitely be checking out the Scot’s Confession.

[@AllYourBaseAreBelongToU5]

RZ, Reformed Baptist (aka “Bless your heart” Calvinist) here. Regarding sacraments (which we call ordinances), where would you start to better understand them as means of grace instead of just symbols? I came from Trinitarian Pentecostalism to Reformed Charismatic to Reformed Baptist unsure about continuation of gifts, so I’m open to hearing other views. I looked up the local PCUSA church here in Jefferson City, and it’s pastored by a woman and it seems they are pretty woke. Based on their worship guide, they still seem to be traditional in their worship, though. I haven’t driven by to see if a pride flag is hanging out front yet.

[@PaulVanderKlay]

Oh this is interesting. Thanks.

[@redeemedzoomer6053]

Ay thanks for checking out my channel! Love your stuff, and praying for the CRCNA

[@Alexmarill]

There's a church near me i am thinking about scouting for the reconquista, what ahould i be looking for, and what should i be doing?

[@mcfarvo]

God bless your struggle for the PCUSA!

[@danakuck8356]

I'm RPCNA and I didn't think he was going to mention it.

[@Yipper64]

0:28 that plus I see denominations as just general ways of telling someone *most* of the overarching beliefs you hold. Yeah it can get confusing but overall I think it is a useful tool. Because not everyone agrees on these secondary issues.

[@elijahdapaedobaptiza4831]

29:00 😂😂😂 I wasn’t even going to comment about your exclusion of the CREC but now I feel obligated to say something

[@Yipper64]

12:55 sacraments are a *means* of salvation? What about "by faith alone"? Ephesians 2:8-9 and such verses? 15:30 "and this water symbolizes baptism that now sayes you also--not the removal of dirst from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It says you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ" the verse as the word "symbolizes" in it. In whatever sense I know that we arent drawing from the original translation but many translation put in this word. And of course there's many such verses that back up the idea that it speaking of a symbol, just given how many people where saved without baptism.

[@rhys09876]

Firstly, reformed christians believe that salvation does come by faith alone. But we also believe that only those who have faith do the sacraments because those who have "faith" but willingly refuse to do the sacraments for whatever reason do not have real faith. So in a sense it is both by faith alone and a means of salvation if that makes sense. Second, we believe that the water itself is symbolic but it is also intertwined with spiritual baptism which is what saves you. I hope this makes sense, feel free to criticize it.

[@CrimsonModder]

Agreed. I looked at a lot of scripture relating to this and the sacraments I was raised up to believe made less and less sense to me. Went from LCMS to First Baptist.

[@rhys09876]

@@CrimsonModder Correct me if I’m wrong, but your saying the only point of sacraments is a symbol? Why would we do them if they have no in depth meaning?

[@DrakonPhD]

@@rhys09876 Symbolic does not mean not having an in-depth meaning. Passover was an entirely symbolic feast (which is part of why I view communion is symbolic: it was done in the context of an extremely symbolic feast), but it certainly was not meaningless to Christ. Standing for the pledge of allegiance is purely symbolic, but certainly has an in-depth meaning.

[@Yipper64]

@@rhys09876 well that is relatively theologically consistent but doesnt really make that much sense to me. I know that faith without works is dead, but as of what those works are I dont think the sacraments count. Like, take the thief on the cross with Jesus, he did none of the sacraments, yet right then and there, Jesus had told him he would be in heaven. He possibly didnt even have the "correct" faith in that moment, because its likely he believed in the "two messiahs" thing. Which is definitely interesting to note because there are multiple points in the bible where people are incorrect in why they show their faith, but are shown to be good in having that faith regardless. Which to me feels like a principle that works against this concept outright.

[@shawnlindsey8426]

The best church coming from a baptist church was a OPC and it is still today the best church I have been to. They are very warm and welcoming.

[@TheKnightofSTL]

It’s tough to have PCUSA outside D tier. The state of the denomination is very rough. I understand and respect the utility of the institution. I suggest The Lord’s Service by Jeff Meyers on the topic of worship. CREC churches model a lot of worship off that book but the author is PCA. Youll be pleasantly surprised and challenged I think.

[@adamthibault6027]

1st off, thank you. I love your videos and love how humble you are. I loved your ending, that many will have different priorities-that's really what it comed down to. Stick to those God given convictions. That said, I wanted to say a few things as an OPC member. You're probably busy and have a life outside of KZbin, so take your time in replying. It's the people, not the building, that makes the difference. I asked in a previous comment, what do you say to what Jesus said about worshipping in Spirit and truth being more important than the place? I agree that, sadly, we in the OPC appear to be lacking in influencing culture. However, have you read Ortland's book Ordinary? It helped me a lot in realizing how the "ordinary" acts of the church are what really transform us and culture. Thankfully, I've been in the same church my whole life and whenever someone visits they say the complete opposite of what you said-we're very friendly and welcoming. Maybe my church is the odd one out, but not from what I've seen. My dad is a pastor, so my family gets to visit other churches when he is on vacation. They've always been extremely welcoming to us. While attending a university far away from home without many good churches around, I'm more convinced of how good and important good doctrine is. It does lead to impact, if people follow through. I have seen this happen in my home church and know it can happen. Sadlly, we often do not follow through. I agree that good theology without good works is useless! James said that. However, that doesn't mean we should compromise the theology-it means we should follow what we know to be true. I think that is the option for most if not all these-start following what you say. Hope this makes sense. Love and prayers brother!

[@redeemedzoomer6053]

Good thoughts! I don't think we can it's either or, either people or buildings. God's Kingdom transforms every area of life, social, doctrinal, and yes, aesthetical

[@unit2394]

Would be interested to see you rank the denominations of other Christian traditions as an outsider.

[@Nguyenzander]

I think there should be a funny game sort of geoguesser-esque that has 3d models of buildings and you have to tell if they are office buildings or non-denom. churches with the crosses photoshopped out. (The names would also be photoshopped out)

[@dustinmray]

I am currently leaving ECO and coming into PCA. I had no idea that there were folks in the PCUSA like yourself. Very enlightening.

[@arthurrytuz4855]

Bro absolutely annihilated the Only Perfect Church...

[@GarrettTheFool]

I went to quite possibly the worst PCUSA Presbyterian Church... and it was my first intro to Presbyterian Churches. Here is a list of their selling points: -Progressive Christianity, immediate red flag -Pride flag right at the very front of the church, on the right side right next to the altar basically -A black flag with symbols of different religions... yes, different religions are apparently celebrated -LGBT Affirming Church. So, nice to know they ignore what the Bible says when it's convenient -Use of Tibetan singing bowls to signal worship. While not explicitly heretical as they are just neat vibrating bowls... their other practices imply it is part of some new-age ritual -Rather than having a moment of silence for prayer, they had five minutes of just "meditation." Asking us to meditate for other people in the world rather than pray. Additionally, the guy leading the meditation used this phrase: "Feel the weight of your body, feel the force of gravity pulling you down. That is quite literally, mother earth giving you a hug" -The teachings of Jesus are "but one of MANY ways to experience the Sacredness and Oneness of Life." So yes fellas, The Jesus part is optional at this "Christian" church -The sermon was the most generic, watered down sermon you could possibly think of However, what I was able to gleam from this experience is: -I like the setup of Presbyterian Churches and the way they conduct worship -I like the ambience and asthetic of a Presbyterian church -I really like hymnal worship as opposed to the standard contemporary and loud modern worship. This was probably one of the most interesting experiences I had...

[@zuffin1864]

I'd like to talk about how well the PCA once did a great job in bringing christ to Korea during the war. There are still Korean churches in my area from Presbytarian, Methodist & Baptists, in kentucky no less! It is remarkable frankly

[@commanderchair]

I am surprised by how much you bring up Church architecture. My degree is in architecture, so I love it and I love good Church architecture that puts the worshipper in a proper emotional state (or at least tries to). That being said, I think there is a line of to be crossed when the building is so large, ornate, expensive that the attention doesn't go to Christ, it goes to the Church and how impressive it is. What kind of witness does it show the watching world that we empty our wallets to keep a building looking exceptional while people starve? Obviously there's balance, I think new churches should have some regard for design, but not so much that its distracting or takes my affections away from Jesus. Just a thought.

[@shanezarcone5401]

Churches should represent a small piece of the Lord's Kingdom on Earth. Investing our material wealth into making these buildings beautiful is an aspect of showing our care for that cause. Remember that the most important thing you could ever do for someone is bring him to Christ. You do comparatively nothing by feeding a man if you do not preach to him the gospel so that he may be saved, and having a representation of God's Kingdom on Earth can get people's attention and make them think about the important questions in life.

[@commanderchair]

@@shanezarcone5401 I see what you are saying, and I don't completely disagree, I think there should be design and beauty in a church. But, I have never once heard someone come to Christ and part of their testimony is being struck by the architecture of the Church. I mean, it's quite the opposite with the house church movement in China that's exploding right now. This seems like a wealthy western idea. I personally think the watching world would be more impressed with Christ and the gospel if they see us prioritize money to the sick, poor, outcast rather than architecture. Again, not saying our churches should look awful, but I think it should be tastefully non distracting.

[@johnathanl8396]

@@commanderchair This is a great point. Church architecture is a nice bonus, but Paul doesn't say that the Gospel is transferred through the attractiveness of a building, but instead he says "How will they believe in Jesus whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?" in Romans 10:14.

[@jimluebke3869]

From Luther's 95 Theses: 50: Christians are to be taught that if the pope knew the exactions of the indulgence preachers, he would rather that the basilica of St. Peter were burned to ashes than built up with the skin, flesh, and bones of his sheep. 51: Christians are to be taught that the pope would and should wish to give of his own money, even though he had to sell the basilica of St. Peter, to many of those from whom certain hawkers of indulgences cajole money.

[@dcbmartin]

I'm part of a Baptist church that has a pretty low view of the sacraments (obviously). I hold a pretty high view of them. Based on your comment at 13:30, would you say that I am not actually receiving the body and blood of Christ since my church doesn't hold to that view?

[@unit2394]

If your church is properly administering the sacraments with the word of God then you are objectively receiving the Body and Blood of Christ, no matter what you or your pastor believes. The power is in God’s word, not what we believe or think individually.

[@mcgheebentle1958]

Would you consider attending some Presbyterian services? When you partake in the Visible Gospel and you view others around you partaking as well, and when you witness a baptism that is rightly understood as a sign and seal of God’s covenanting love upon His people, I think it’ll deeply move you. The person above me is correct; the sacraments are objective. But trust me, as someone that’s been where you are, your worship will be so much more pure and beautiful when you partake in the sacraments with people in the church that view the sacraments rightly. It DOES matter and it does make a difference. Just something to think about. As someone who has been there.

[@vinnieandhispizza6299]

So, basically the criteria is being historically rooted, not being toxic when you split or ideally never splitting at all, having good outreach to impact the culture... and having pretty churches? Pretty churches. I think we are placing far too much importance on appearances. I also disagree with you placing more importance on outreach vs. isolationism than on theological conservativism vs. Theological liberalism. Just as it is bad to have the right answers and keep them to yourself, it is also just as bad to have bad answers and to spread them everywhere. In many ways, the second option is much worse. Anyway, interesting video with a perspective very different than my own on church denominations. Have a good day from a Reformed Baptist.

[@BananaLair]

I forgot that there’s a distinction between Dutch Reformed and Presbyterian (I’m Dutch so I only know the former) and I was looking for the Dutch Reformed denoms to appear in the tier list but of course that would fall outside the scope of this video 🤦‍♂️

[@powermauler]

I take it you live in Canada or the Midwest then? :) I used to live there and would also love to see how all the Dutch Reformed churches fit.

[@NosideGhst]

Do Pentecostals next!

[@TimRogers34]

I am Calvary Chapel attendee. However, so many things said about looking for something different is so spot on. Going through all of it, now. The Eucharist is the biggest thing for me at the moment.

[@pauln5785]

In my world (Lutheranism), the WELS is our OPC. They stick to themselves and don't even commune anyone unless they're a member of a WELS church or a denomination they're in fellowship with. And as for the OPC, the entire denominational membership is nearly equivalent to the membership of Joel Osteen's church!

[@josee18]

The thing is with Luterans, The Missourri Synod many times seens or appears more Roman Catholic and Orthodox even more than Anglican at times. But the MS and the WELS seems very separate than their other Lutheran brothers and sisters.

[@Jacobo8448]

Please do Lutherans next 🙏🏼 ❤😅

[@borandolph1267]

I love your views on winning back the denominations. I'm reading a book talking about the church under communsim and I see a lot of similarities. I love this quote in it. We stay because if we go, who will be left to pray? - Brother Andrew, God's Smuggler.

[@CommKommando]

PCA churches seem to be the most organized and well run, at least in Texas.

[@javierluyanda8283]

Church tour of your church!

[@theItalianshamrock]

Went to an OPC church. Yes the church was small and not alot of people there. Everyone was polite and i felt welcome. The pastor was great, im conservative and we agreed on almost everything so i was very glad to see this

[@redeemedzoomer6053]

Sure! But, how much of an impact does that church have on the community? That was kinda my whole criticism of the OPC

[@AlexandraGrolmus]

I know you know a lot more about Presbyterians, but it’d be awesome if you did this for all the denominations like Lutherans, Methodists, Congregationalists, etc. I am a Mainliner, but hearing you roast the ones that have gone WAY off the rails like the UCC would be great. 😂

[@mrleemrleeohmrlee]

Reformed Baptist here and no offense taken. Since we're at war we desperately need unity in the major stuff. We can have arguments over the sacraments later, after the rulers, authorities and powers of this dark world and the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms have been put under the feet of Christ. God bless you.

[@timothysullivan1669]

Obligatory comment from an OPC member. After watching your whole video and listening to your reasoning I have to say I think your ranking of the OPC in D tier is… Pretty fair. I think it deserves a C tier, but maybe that’s because I go to a larger OPC church that is pushing hard to have an impact in our community, but there are many OPC churches that are “theology in a white box.” If I’m not mistaken there have been some attempts to merge with other denominations over the years. The problem is that when you look at the scale of something as big as a whole denomination with as many rules as presbyterians have…it turn out splitting is a lot easier than unifying. I’m not saying it’s a bad thing, I’m just saying on an individual level it feels like there’s a lot less that can be done

[@redeemedzoomer6053]

thank you, brother, I appreciate the thoughtful response

[@ChiefBridgeFuser]

Not all usa presbys branched from/to PCUSA. Eg, Associate Reformed Presby has somehow managed to not split or join since arrival in North Am.

[@isaacperkins9603]

heh RPCNA'er here- thx for the recognition! We are small, but we are here, and we are mighty! We are very much more conservative, and I do think that we go a little ham on the psalmody aspect (there are good hymns, and there are not as good hymns), but the sacraments are very important, and we are very nerdy. Come out and see us! Philly has two of our churches, so come visit! Also, singing without instruments, in my mind, is so much more than the praise bands and such- Choirs make it seem as if worship is for other people to do for you, and organs just overpower everything. Singing in 4-part harmony, is AWESOME, especially if you get a good presenter and like 3-5 people who can read music.

[@mattosamanandesu]

Hey! Didn't think I'd see another blue bleeding Covenanter! 😂

[@isaacperkins9603]

@@mattosamanandesu Aye- I'm actually going to TFY this summer, which will be great fun :D

[@mattosamanandesu]

@@isaacperkins9603 I'm a bit old for TFY, but the Lord has seen fit to have me lead the RPGM team to Japan next month!

[@isaacperkins9603]

@@mattosamanandesu Woah! Nice one, mate! May you reach many people.

[@ethanclark6366]

As a PCA brother just wanted to say my church has a high sacramentology (we have read the Heidelberg catechism before before taking communion) and we refer to the real presence. Along with that we do say that infants are true christians. We sing Psalms, have great preaching and love Jesus! Just wanted you all to know that we are out there!

[@shepherd_1057]

Now to see where my church lands.

[@shepherd_1057]

I’ll take B tier for EPC. The church I go to is more on the contemporary end of things, but I’ve been blessed with awesome pastors the entire time I’ve been there.

[@steelwarrior105]

CREC is a vast majority non-FV btw, from your friendly neighborhood CREC member. Jim Jordan and Peter Leithart are really the only FV guys left but even Jordan has softened. Another note of the CREC is that a lot of CREC churches came out of the PCA and SBC (and the remanets of ARBCA) because they wanted either more a more kuyperean or theonomic political/social stance and they wanted a higher sacramentology (most of the CREC where I live would be reformed anglican if they didn't reject episcopacy.)

[@redeemedzoomer6053]

Here's the thing - a lot of PCA folks think high sacramentology is quasi-Anglican, but really it's just Presbyterian, and the PCA sacramentology is quasi-Baptist

[@Deagle-lj7tv]

Can you do this with all the Christian denominations?

[@MichaelCAnderson08]

PCA pastor here, and we definitely do NOT think that the sacraments are mere signs. We believe that they are means of grace. We believe in the spiritual presence of Christ in the Lord's Supper.

[@wesmorgan7729]

Probably the main reason why PCA churches might look plain and non-sacred is most probably lost their buildings to the PCUSA when they left. I know most Episcopal dioceses hold church properties in trust which is why many churches in the Diocese of Virginia lost their old church buildings.

[@redeemedzoomer6053]

Well what I always say is that those are the consequences of running away. The PCA is a runaway denomination and as a result, can NEVER live up to what PCUSA used to be

[@thekochs5308]

@@redeemedzoomer6053 As an elder in training at a PCA church and with lots of PCA connections, I can confidently say lots of PCA congregations love and admire the old PCUSA buildings and would love to build such structures. But the building of such edifices is WAAAYY too cost prohibitive for any PCA congregation. Very few mega churches could afford such costs

[@redeemedzoomer6053]

@@thekochs5308 We shouldn't let what's made for God's glory fall into the hands of the devil. We must retake the Mainline Church

[@thekochs5308]

@@redeemedzoomer6053 agree

[@aspiringgoldsoul]

I agree with some of your criticisms of the OPC, but I do want to defend its “kingdom” power. Machen and others who left Princeton founded Westminster Theological Seminary. That seminary plus its eventual branches give the OPC influence at the academic level.

[@redeemedzoomer6053]

I might have to push back on that. Founding a theology school doesn't automatically count as Kingdom influence. When the old Presbyterians founded Princeton, it started as a theology school, but then developed into a school that excelled at all academic areas including math and science. When is the OPC gonna do that? Also, the OPC doesn't have even a fraction of the social programs for helping the poor that PCUSA does. Programs that could have a massive impact for God's Kingdom if they were back in faithful hands.

[@aspiringgoldsoul]

@@redeemedzoomer6053 I fail to see how social programming devoid of the gospel spreads the Kingdom on Earth. I admire your mission to save the mainline denominations, but I’m worried any social credit they may have had once is being lost as they continue to seek the approval of a culture that by and large hates them or pities them as the “cool” Christian’s. To the point about “founding a theology school,” it is a school that was founded nearly 100 years ago and has largely remained devoted to educating people in Reformed theology. Training pastors to lead ordinary churches around the world for a century certainly has Kingdom influence. As an aside, Jake Meador’s recent piece in Mere Orthodoxy may provide a potential video topic for you to explain any agreements and disagreements.

[@budicaesar1213]

No CREC?!

[@grantbanasik8006]

Would you consider making a video discussing the protagonists of New Atheism (Hitchens, Dawkins, Harris, etc)? I've listened to many of these men at length, and the more I do the more I'm disappointed anyone finds them convincing, even if they are extremely well-spoken and intelligent.

[@fighterofthenightman1057]

Would love to see your take on other denominations! Even if it’s just your surface level knowledge

[@fighterofthenightman1057]

As a moderate ELCA Lutheran, I’d have a similar take on my denomination (S and F), but I’d include LCMS as S Tier in its own very different way. Difficult to judge the others, but WELS is C.

[@the_duke_is_luke]

Nondenominational here! My church specifically is lead by four elders who all have equal say in decisions and are held accountable by our members. We're currently looking for a church building and we're underneath Acts 29, if you'd want to do a video on facts vs myths on evangelical/nondenominational Christians, (most of us see the terms as interchangeable,) that might help people understand the social confusion and where we went wrong.

[@airsoftplayergggamer]

Can all denominations make their church in your Minecraft world, because I am reformed Protestant church go'er

[@jjwill3000]

Please do a Tier list of all the Major US denominations 🙏 Thanks

[@jessefoutz597]

Now do the Anglicans?

[@MakeMeAmerican1812]

Fun fact: there are almost as many Presbyterian denominations in Scotland as in the USA. Would be fun to add them to the tier list.

[@josee18]

The PCUSA is tied to the Church of Scotland( Presbyterian) this is our history and the mother church of Presbyterianism. Look up John Knox the founder of Presbyteiranism, he was influenced by John Calvin.

[@Yipper64]

7:40 I think it is important to not hold tradition to too much value, as it says in mark 7:8 "you have let go to the commandments of God and are holding on to human traditions" so it is possible to hold so strong to tradition you stop following the commandments of God. 16:20 this is my other small issue I have with your theology, you hold the Scotts confession in high regard as well. But as it says in Deuteronomy 4:2 "you shall not add to the word which I am commanding you"

[@Spudeaux]

While it's certainly possible to hold on to traditions too tightly and put your faith in them rather than Christ, and many have done so, that doesn't mean that holding to tradition is wrong or even worth being suspicious of in itself. To many people view the idea of tradition is seen as "peer pressure from dead people", when most traditions are actually solutions to problems that society forgot we had. There's truth and danger in both of those views, so it's something that must be held in tension. Our current culture's error is being too suspicious of tradition, not holding on to it too tightly. As far as confessions adding to the word - that's a fundamental misunderstanding of what the confessions are. Scripture is infallible, confessions are not. The confessions can be updated, the scriptures cannot. The confessions are carefully evaluated explanations of what scripture means and how it applies, not additions to scripture. Their purpose is for education and theological consistency, not new revelation.

[@Yipper64]

@@Spudeaux now I can agree with that first part, but its just a worry I have. Because the kind of tradition he seems to site just seems very unimportant to me. Like, churches looking a certain way... The early church started in people's houses. The way a church looks could not matter less to me. And while not holding onto tradition is *the culture's* biggest problem, holding to tradition too much could be one of zoomer's problems. And for the confession adding to the word I understand that zoomer nor any one else takes it as infallible word, I just think holding it in such high regard could be an issue. Given how he judges a church a great deal by if they follow it or not. If its fallible, just a good book, then what does it matter?

[@Spudeaux]

@@Yipper64 The key here is discernment. There's truth and error in either position, but since the culture is one way right now, it's correct to pull it in the other direction. Zoomer may need to temper his love for pretty buildings in the future, but in the current moment, he's right. Anyway, a church building is much more than just a practical structure that keeps people out of the elements during a worship service - it's also a message, a near permanent one, about a church's theology, as well as its understanding of how it fits in with history and the current culture. Anyway, in regards to the confessions, I'm still not sure you understand their purpose. They're fallible, but they still carry useful (and I'd argue necessary) authority. Think about the Supreme Court - we already have laws and the constitution, why do we need the Supreme Court? Because sometimes things come up that aren't addressed in the law but the philosophy behind the law can guide us to a remedy. Or maybe there's dispute about what the law does or should mean. The Supreme Court is the final authority on the law, but it's fallible and it's decisions can and have been reversed. That doesn't mean it's not useful, not necessary. It's possible for the Supreme Court to screw things up, but that's not good enough of a reason to get rid of it. The purpose of the confessions is to have an authority that we can look to that helps us easily understand the scriptures when there might be a dispute, a potential misunderstanding, or a lack of clarity. You'd might think that without the confessions you'll just rely on scripture, but that's not true practically. What you're relying on without the confession is fallible men, who perhaps may be even more corruptible than a carefully vetted text document.

[@pleb1717]

It doesn’t matter what time or place your in as long as you hear the word of god with your fellow believers that is enough

[@isaacfernandez637]

beautiful churches have nothing to do with Gods glory... You can fight all you want as long as its for the kingdom and not for a man-made institution. You missed the Gold standard of denominations: FCC