Primatologist Explains the 1% Difference Between Humans & Apes | Richard Wrangham | EP 249

This conversation was recorded on September 1, 2021.
I spoke to Richard Wrangham about his research on ape behavior. We explored prerequisites for chimp attacks, how cooking shaped human cognitive development, studying chimps in the wild with Jane Goodall, DNA similarity studies, proactive vs. reactive aggression, and more.
Richard is a biological anthropologist at Harvard, specializing in the study of primates and the evolution of violence, sex, cooking, and culture. He’s also a MacArthur fellow-the so-called “genius grant”-and the author of books like 'The Goodness Paradox: The Strange Relationship Between Virtue and Violence in Human Evolution' and 'Demonic Males: Apes and the Origins of Human Violence.'
-Chapters-
0:00 - Intro
2:39 - Jane Goodall
5:32 - Living in the wild
6:26 - Bumping into rhinos & sleep darting elephants
11:06 - Human competitiveness & sexual behavior
16:13 - "An enormous shock" from Yale
23:48 - Working with Jane Goodall
26:42 - Chimp mating habits
34:47 - Bonding via cooking
41:39 - Checking self-bias
42:26 - War and the 8-vs-1 rule
49:02 - Why kill lone neighbors?
56:41 - Cooking is really about calories
1:02:51 - The greatest discovery in human evolution
1:06:35 - Why do animals prefer it cooked?
1:10:05 - Fire & human development
1:12:16 - Innate violence, authoritarianism, and The Goodness Paradox
1:23:43 - Male aggression
1:42:01 - Outro
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[PabloNathanael92]

It's inspiring that we have this kind of quality content on the internet for free.

[VMAXBX]

Not free. The price is that they sell you to their advertisers. No such thing as a free lunch.

[onlythewise1]

advertising isnt free

[Big guys]

@VMAXBXad block fam 💀

[Chris Haller]

Great episode Jordan! The quality of your interview subjects is second to none! I've been listening to you and reading your books for over 5 years now and you never ever disappoint. Please keep up the wonderful work, you will only grow in popularity exponentially and the critics don't matter because they don't even listen to what you actually say. We love you buddy. Edit: this was an amazing podcast. who knew such a perfect combo would be a clinical psychologist genius and a geniuis level primatologist. what a damn pleasure we have being able to hear this conversation. I love these longform talks 😁

[Fulfill the Mission]

To everyone reading this, I have a real quick, important question to ask you. Has anyone ever told you that God loves you and has a great plan for your life? And, if you were to die right now, do you know for a fact that you would go to Heaven? I want to tell you that the Bible says that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, and that the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord, and, that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved, and I want to tell you that you can make that decision today, to turn from sin and turn to Christ. If you would like to receive Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, pray this prayer from your heart out loud to God. "Heavenly Father, I repent of sin. I receive forgiveness. I receive Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. Jesus Christ is Lord, and my Savior. Come into my heart right now. I thank you for dying for me. By the blood of Jesus, right now, I am saved. In Jesus' name, Amen."

[Warren Buffett]

​​@Fulfill the Mission , if God loves us then there would be no disease or sickness or all this natural disasters, although most of the disease has been eliminated or are being cured or treated, only by those people who went ahead without the concept of believing that God will save us and worked hard by questioning the mystery surroundings us, if not, we humans would never be in the place we are right now.

[Fulfill the Mission]

@Warren Buffett It's because of man's sin that these things are in the world. Sin brings death. The wages of sin is death. God gave the Earth to mankind, and when we chose to bring sin into the world, death came too. Jesus died so we could be free from the power of death and sin, and have eternal life with Him.

[Warren Buffett]

@Fulfill the Mission , If you had understood the podcast interlocution then you would think twice before any claim of sin.

[Alison Fontenot]

Human Evolution - we are a unique species, with many similarities to Chimpanzees, but distinctly different, as Michelangelo so brilliantly captured in his Creation of Adam.

[Pit Gutzmann]

I am extremely pleased with the interviewer in this video. He asks exactly the question I would have liked to ask the expert and he is extremely well prepared.

[Bitterrootbackroads]

Aside from the stunning things I learned about the topic, JP has once again astounded me with how he approaches a topic and how he comes to his positions. It’s like the world is one big magic show & I’m expected to sit in the audience, accept at face value the tricks I see on the stage, and not question things. JP takes me backstage, shows me the props and how they work, then backs it up by pointing out exactly how the “magician” uses those props to perform the trick. I can see why so many consider him a danger- they don’t want their tricks revealed. Bless you Jordan, the world needs you!

[Tim Hansen]

Kinda answers the question about what happened to the Neanderthal population of Europe eh???

[r vanden]

Wrangham was great but Peterson was a pain in the ass. An interviewer who interrupted and talked too much making his own speeches.

[Robert Carter]

@r vanden Disagree. Despite being 14 years younger, Peterson as a philosopher operates in large intellectual frames, by which he absorbs provided by Wrangham's field findings and facts.

[r vanden]

@Robert Carter I need some basic grammatical coherence and logic from you before I can respond adequately.

[Robert Carter]

@r vanden My disagreement doesn't need your approval or excuse, grumpy pal, so don't waste your breath.

[MEOW]

♥It is a shame that over four years I found only 17 podcasters who are focused on the truth. Another super-interesting podcast Jordan. You bring on more informative guests, telling the truth, than any other. Each podcast makes me ever-more appreciative. I have learned a lot from you these past four years as I watch every podcast at least once and most multiple times. Your messages have changed my life for the better. Jordan, are asolutely a national treasure. This latest attack on you by your corrupt so-called piers is actually a beautiful thing because the more these idiots attack you the more popular you get. They really are struck-on-stuped but It's like free-advertising for you. As any farmer would say - Keep the chin up. LOL Byron Starr, Engineer, Truth-seeker. aka Pop* Vancouver BC

[critical thinking]

evolution is truth,hmmm not so sure, most don't belief in it,witch isn't a determinant factor in whats true,but evolution being true is outright wrong, i would consider it more a belief of theory

[Alexander]

@critical thinking it absolutely is true. Trey the Explainer made a video called “rapid evolution”. It cover examples of evolution and I recommend it. How do you think different dog breeds are made? We pick specific traits that we want. Over generations the breeds differ more and more. Nature favors some traits Over others. In the wild you can say nature picks specific traits, not literally, but those traits are passed down to the offspring.

[Alexander]

@That Salty Life animal- a living organism that feeds on organic matter, typically having specialized sense organs and nervous system and able to respond rapidly to stimuli. We are descendants of apes. We are related to chimpanzees. By definition we are animals but if you’re are talking about will power and self control, look around the world. Money, sex, power are coveted by people, I’m not saying everyone but the lack of willpower and self control runs rampant in humanity. Plus there are studies done that show corvids and apes that delay self gratification There is a book called “the great ape project” and I really recommend it to see how close we act to apes. Their intelligence and ability to communicate isn’t far off from a six year old.

[Oturtlegirl51]

Absolutely fascinating. I wish it had been twice as long. Thank you, gentlemen. Well done.

[Lorell Gingrich]

This was an exceedingly fascinating talk/interview! I think I developed another synapse extension or two. I look forward to hearing from this man again and will definitely read the books. Dr. Peterson, your interview skills have become well-defined and it's a joy to tune in to these podcasts. Thank you.

[Deborah Marinelli]

Absolutely agree to every thing you said 👍🏻 including the synapse thing 😊

[Tom Smith]

👍😊

[prischm]

I also had to banish a few synapses for being wrong.

[H V]

conversations like this one re-emphasizes why the JBP podcast is the no.1 educational podcast in the World. Can't wait to hear more in the future with Frans de Waal!

[Enya Îş řâvě]

👌👍

[J H]

Jordan, you are the one person I enjoy and look forward to hearing. As a homeschooling mom, I get very little time to myself. I usually listen to you while I’m cooking dinner (if my kids aren’t helping me and my husband isn’t telling me about his day at work!) I truly look forward to spending my “me time” listening to your interviews. I appreciate you and the people you interview! Please don’t ever stop! Prayers to you and your family to always be strong in the tough times you face speaking truth and seeking truth!

[POD]

I listen to his interviews while out walking or hiking. Great company!

[Jewels]

This was fantastic. Stay with it until the end. Looking forward to finding these books!

[dstavs]

I just finished Prof. Richard Wrangham’s “The Goodness Paradox”. It’s a wonderfully illuminating book that puts into perspective the human condition as understood through the lens of evolution. Thank you, again, Prof. Peterson for interviewing another brilliant guest and helping me add to my growing catalogue of books!

[Pasokhjoo]

Listening to Jordan is always emotional for me, his intellect and perceptions leave me in awe. What an amazing mind to look up to, and learn from.

[Kim Larso]

💚

[Blandge]

Yeah, but he's gotten so bitter and mean since his medical emergency. I can't really blame him for it since he's been through a lot, but he's different now. It's hard to see him the same way. Whereas before I just saw him as someone whose primary mission in life was to help people help themselves, now it definitely seems like politics have taken precedence over his self-help material. Pretty sad, actually.

[Cissy2cute]

The 1974 - 1978 Gombe war. They developed warfare with some characteristics almost identical to how humans would conduct strategy and battle. It was what Jane Goodall was shocked by to learn about their aggressive, warlike behavior.

[Captain Sea Cucumber]

As a former zoologist/ecologist and now science teacher (and psychology hobbyist), this discussion on primate behaviour was extremely interesting and though provoking, what a match up!

[materialclassified *]

"though" or thought?...Seems to work either way.

[Matt "Lindy"]

want thought provoking? KZbin: Dr. Stephen C Meyer. Enjoy

[Lars]

Its okey, its for teachers too!

[Alabama Coastie]

As none of those things, it was very good.

[D2x]

This wasn’t a match up it was a interview

[Marjorie orveau]

The best conversation I have EVER listened to and the best 1 hour 45 minutes when I've learned so much about human instinct, eating habits, evolution....

[Ben]

Try University. Its like this every day.

[Rod]

@Ben wonder how many of these themes would be welcome in a woke environment…

[Sarah Robertson]

@Rod Well, it's clear that women doing the cooking freed men up to do all kinds of things. That's one thing that the woke environment would point out.

[Jim Nutter]

Define ‘woke’ .

[Edna Shalev]

Highly instructive. Evocative, thought provoking, especially if you are a historian. Absolute must.

[Siphephelo Phungula]

This was very nice, informative and well-laid out. Again, thank you JP!!

[Edward Lee]

Enlightening and thought provoking discussions. Now I have a yardstick to measure human societies from its beginning. Thanks for the great effort and keep up the good work. From Hker worldwide

[Robert Miller]

HK here bro!

[antonio lupen]

It's beautiful to find such an eloquent dialogue between two brilliant minds and see how knowledge grows with shared experience. Nutrition for the spirit.

[Ben]

Try University. Its like this every day.

[podskrebko]

That was a brilliant conversation! One of the best on the podcast as far as I'm concerned. Can we have more of those, please? I will definitely read his books, I'm not a biologist, but the topic is fascinating.

[Jeffrey McKinery]

Fully agree. Animal behavior is incredibly intriguing story in reference to our own proclivities.

[fatrotry]

Fully agree but I find it astonishing how JP closed the discussion when an anthropologic explanation of males dominance over woman and abuse of their position of power to dictate the moral code, was given. I was expecting some kind of comment yet he just closed the discussion. Hmmm interesting !

[Dave]

Yes you can hear more by clicking on the subscribe icon, and ringing the bell and selecting all.

[Masoud J]

@fatrotry Oh yeah, you caught him. They talked for 90 minutes and JP covered all the planned topics. What's wrong with you feminists?

[Patrick Cooper]

@fatrotry If you listen to Dr Wrangham on Lex Fridman podcast he seems to have an outdated view that women aren't malicious and getting rid of men would lead to Shangri-La...most psychology has proven psychopathy is nearly as prevalent in women than men it just manifests differently due to culture and how little we understand the dark side of man and woman.

[Robert Tisch]

My lord, this is profound knowledge! I sincerely thank you both! Please schedule another conversation!

[Ben]

Try University. Its like this every day.

[Rasmus Krantz Fredriksson]

Love these interviews. My nature is very curious and world loving. Since ive deleted social media and journal my thoughts and listen to all kinds of things like this. I feel more alive and curious again. An adult version of the wanderlust i had as a child. Thank you!

[WestTexasJay14]

What a wonderful interview. I've always enjoyed anthropology and the study of social systems. I truly enjoy your interviews mostly because you're not only highly intelligent but know a great deal about the subjects talked about. Thank you again.

[quikdraw520]

I used to live in Odessa...

[Chris Wood]

I like the fact that Jordan asked Richard about his period spend in Africa when he was 17. It probably would have just been overlooked by other interviewers but it showed so much about Richard as a young man - very revealing about his development. Loved about the tail pulling on the elephant !

[Ron G]

It helped me understand when he was explaining, bonding via cooking.

[NatsAstrea]

That was fascinating. Thank you both for having this discussion and allowing me to listen to it. Now, off to the library to get copies of Prof Wrangham's books!

[Baby Cheesus]

I absolutely loved this. And I really love seeing the guests face light up when Jordan shows real interest in their field of study, like knowing how they used to study genetic differences by literally pulling DNA apart. Must be such a relief for the guest knowing they aren't having to start from the ground up

[Baby Cheesus]

@Rio Henry if honesty is relevant, which I don’t think it is when swapping thoughts and ideas personally. In fact you could argue that keeping everyone anonymous benefits discussion

[Carlos O]

@Baby Cheesus keeping everyone anonymous reduces stress and allows people to ask questions they feel like they could be ridiculed for, as long as the chat is between reasonable people I find it hard to see a downside that couldn't be solved by separate non-anonymous chats

[Jason Black]

Such a good interview! Your style puts me at ease listening, and seems to have a profound affect on your interactions with Dr. Wrangman. Amazing content Dr. Peterson, unbelievably sincere. Thank you.

[hophead hopper]

The movie Jordan discusses @1:36:00 is called 'The Ballad of Narayama' . He is talking about the 1983 version. It was also filmed in 1958.

[John Ridgley]

Thank You!!

[Brandi Myhren]

Learning is exciting . These interviews are exciting . Thank you for giving us this interview.

[ferdi ERNEST]

Fascinating conversation and Mr Wragham's book The Goodness Paradox is a brilliant piece of work..! Maybe someone already answered already to Jordan's question about this Japanese film of which he forgot the name, as this episode was already already released in September 2021, but for them who just saw this now, like me: it was certainly the Japanese film "the Balad of Narayama". A must-see-movie for those who are interested in anthropology and questions on human behaviour.

[Leace Bee]

Ty - I've been scrolling thru the countless I ❤JP comments in hopes that someone commented on the Japanese movie. Ty

[Warren Buffett]

Thank you for the movie name

[claytonfromillinois]

Long time fan of you Jordan, the specific pair of the two of you here is something I could watch endlessly.

[Vette Vegas]

Jordan, I like that after your recovery your pace has slowed just slightly. It's a positive not a negative. It was so hard to keep up 100% with your thoughts before, now you are a little more relaxed and tend to take your time. Resulting in more effective communication in the first pass. What a great interview. Riveting for an hour and 45min. Amazing. Love you, Brother.

[O_O]

fro what ?

[Anthony Mcclain-Skeen]

@O_O drug addiction

[pictzone]

This is actually a video shot when he was barely healthy

[Nicole Spiteri]

Agreed

[Aaron Leonard]

Helps to have caught up some when he took a break .

[Kevin Price]

Brilliant interview. Thank you very much Dr. Peterson❤️

[Katrina]

A fascinating interview. I laughed about the “Elephant Tipping” . Have been fascinated by the similarities & differences between us & other primates.

[Blake]

Absolutely loved this discussion, thank you so much!

[Uncle Putin]

This was a fascinating and illuminating discussion. Some definite food for thought.

[Michel & Yvette Pearl]

What a great interlocution, and what a fascinating subject. Thank you to both. The books will make for interesting reading. Regarding humankind, and our current behaviours, I find that given the right opportunity either by status, peer pressure or greed we do not hesitate to go back to our “original form”. Wars between “neighbouring groups” as they are happening now in our time frame explain this very well. That would be a great debatable subject…Men kill men that have interfered with their families…Are we all capable of this? Are we just a time bomb waiting to explode given the right set of circumstances?... And all our children are at risk from groups of marauding predators, I am sure that most fathers would not hesitate to take action against such a vile and infamous sick animal.

[Ernest 10]

What a fascinating chat. Thanks Dr. Peterson to give us the chance to learn so much about various disciplines and subjects.

[Nolan Lynch]

If you haven't I really recommend his audio book catching fire it's very fascinating

[ALPHA]

When you caught them stealing by using satan as bait and they came to the conclusion that Jesus is a much bigger threat😆

[sailorbychoice1]

1:18:18 One of the things interesting to note about most Native American Tribes, no matter what name they were known as to others, their own name for their tribe was normally translated as _The People,_ or _The Human Beings,_ ALL Other tribes were _Others._

[whos_ur_buddha]

Not most

[michael s]

Robert Ardrey wrote a trilogy of books on human evolution. In addition to _African Genesis_ and _The Territorial Imperative_ , he also wrote _The Social Contract._ . Ardrey was an excellent writer and his books are still well worth reading even with the passage of a half century.

[Dan F]

My degree and interest in biology aid in my ability to digest and appreciate this kind of discussion where inquiry and discussion can be interesting to digest in terms of the real world.

[Cathbad Music]

Fascinating conversation. Please do a sequel!

[Rodney Henchliffe]

Totally brilliant!!!!!!! Thank you. Superb contribution and legacy to aid our understanding. Wow!!!

[Lynx South]

I remember reading about Jane Goodall, watching television documentaries about her and her work, reading articles she'd written, and attending one of her lectures. She definitely knew that chimp warfare would be explosive news, she was accused of making it up, and the skepticism and disbelief didn't really die out until other researchers documented the same behavior. Until others found the same behavior, there was also a lot of conjecture that the troop she was observing were somehow aberrant, unique; even that her watching them had somehow disturbed the troop, caused them such anxiety, etc., that she was causing the violence.

[William Barth]

The mental gymnastics people do to avoid imagining the implications of such observations.

[Lynx South]

@William Barth I think they imagined them just fine. It was not wanting to accept the implications as reality that led to the unethical attacks on Goodall's character. A certain level of professional skepticism until more data about other troops came in was appropriate, but the closed-minded nastiness wasn't. People/researchers/scientists still do the same thing, smearing and "deplatforming" without evidence those whom they disagree with.

[Robert Wheeler]

@Lynx South Nopoo

[Chris Wood]

I think it would make a strong argument that people who lived in volcanic regions where there was 'hot rocks' around. In the Canaries they dig out a hallow in the earth to access the natural heat and make makeshift ovens to cook food. This alongside the added advantage of fertile soil in volcanic areas to grow crops could have made it easy for mankind to find out the advantages gained by cooking both meat and vegetables. The difficult bit was how to make hot rocks in regions where there was no natural fire sources.

[Terrence Randle]

I really enjoy and appreciate intelligent conversations…..😊👍🏾

[Kim Larso]

Rock On JP; Thank You for being a part of ‘My Journey’ the last 10 years!💚

[John.R C.]

A great interview. Thank you, both.

[Martini]

Language development aided our evolution but this documentary leaves me Speechless! Incredibly informative. Thanks to both gentlemen. I'm editing to add that this is the best documentary I have ever watched. I'm one of these evolved (¿) west of Ireland tribes.

[Ben]

Try University. Its like this every day.

[Martini]

EVERY day! - Saturday & Sunday?

[Alex]

Ah I love how Dr. Peterson is always so genuinely welcoming towards his podguests! One can really tell that they feel truly appreciated. Always puts a natural smile on my face when they wrap up :)

[070agga]

Haha yeah JP's podcast endings are always so incredibly polite and warm :)

[Loree Petree]

Jordan is my most recent hero for analyzing social issues (from an altruistic perspective) and is brave enough to challenge established (but not necessarily beneficial) dogma

[Jewels]

Please have this man narrate some bedtime stories. (I mean that in the best sense, so relaxing)

[Planet Earth]

I appreciate your pre topic attention to detail, reading up to understand the work of your guests. Results in very interesting questions and answers.

[Marjorie Johnson]

Thank you for introducing me to this brilliant author.

[K. Schmidt]

Thank you, Jordan! I could listen to your interviews for hours, and I am :-)

[adam hindle]

Superb conversation; articulate, rich in detail and captivating. Thanks both of you.

[anna demo]

Fascinating discussion! Thank you, gentlemen.

[Scrap5000]

Desmond Morris is incredible! So happy to hear him brought up

[Berhane Mesfin]

Sorry to have to comment so late but what a fascinating and informative intellectual engagement; both from the penetrating questions asked and the cautious and studied answers. Ever enlighteninig.Jordan's question of how many killings it takes......was a gold question.

[Serge Gassity]

The movie you’re referring to is called “The Legend of Narayama “ by great Akiro Kurosawa. It shows a perfect example of gerontocide as means to “optimize” the scarcity of resources by eliminating the “unproductive” members of a tribe.

[E10deeznutzz]

It's just good to have interesting conversations, especially when JP is involved.....

[Mickael Jansson]

Much appreciated and we need more of these kind of talks. Brings understanding and for me calm in these times of increased tension in the world.

[Colby]

A Finnish Michael Jackson impersonator I presume? :)

[Mickael Jansson]

@Colby Swedish 😉

[Da Lor]

Amen.

[Lynn Cuthrell]

One of the best interviews I’ve listened to on this podcast so far.I thought I knew something about chimpanzees but I realize that I really didn’t know much at all. I love to watch chimpanzees at the zoo. Now that I have more knowledge my overall experience will be deeper and more rewarding. Thank you

[Ryan Dugal]

As soon as he said the word cooking, I’m super excited. Such a brilliant theory.

[zissumanter]

I made sure I watched with as much attention as I can muster. When my attention did not hold as long then I made sure to go back and watch it over again. It helps my understanding and that is a such help I appreciate so much. Thank you for sharing your work

[11116nas]

one of my favorite interviews. I dont mind the more recent ones that are heavily involved in politics and religion, but its nice to take a break from that every now and than.

[Shawn Ferguson]

Thank you. This was absolutely fascinating.

[Ron G]

I wanted to hear the answer to this question; how do you prioritize the similarities versus the differences and how do you decide when you can draw conclusions that are more universal rather than local to that particular species? This is the kind of stuff we grapple with all the time.

[stvbrsn]

While reminiscing about his early career, Dr. Wrangham often says “yeah, those were the Goodall days!”

[Adam Dupree]

Good one😂 very good!

[Jacob Slouka]

My, that was just Goodall-ful

[katie gwynn]

I like how he says, " yeah we used to rap about that,"

[luhental]

It’s the cheap puns that always get me👍

[The Martian Report]

Underrated comment right here. 🤣

[Liam P]

Absolutely fascinating. Thank you. I'll buy these three books to read for 2023.

[Zodibear]

Your better off buying a bible

[Dataflow Geometry]

It's great that complex social instincts are finally getting some recognition among cognitive scientists. We're emerging from a half century of naive social engineering which collided with unrecognized, stronger innate propensities. This channel is a source of enlightenment.

[leslie landberg]

You can't make a silk purse out of a sows arse.

[Sandwich Breath]

Fascinating conversation! Loved it.

[Penelope Hunt]

Truly brilliant and useful interview

[louisewall01]

What interesting conversation. Loved it.

[GB Banjara]

Very enlightening conversation. This kind conversations help curious generalists like myself to understand evolution of human values over time without having to read lengthy multiple books. Thanks to both Dr Peterson and the professor Wrangham for brining it to us.

[stijnvdv2]

Very interesting and I can see how it relates to our primordial instincts as humans... however, we humans are not apes..... we might physically be much weaker, but what made us humans top of the food chain is the combination of brain power and tool making to do the fighting for us. A pack of lions can have all the muscles and physical strength in the world but it won't last 5 seconds against someone with an AK47 that just shoots it to bits, the lions will just be slaughtered like sheep; cannon fodder; which our cousins in the animal kingdom lack... which is why I think what the west does is extremely stupid with the strength of atom bombs we have today... like what is the US gonna do... watch out over the waste lands of their entire cities turned to dust by Russia's nukes and say 'I know it looks bad, but you should see the other guy.'.... Like the politicians of today have NO CLUE what the atom bomb did for horrors to Hiroshima and Nagasaki; and those are child's play toys compared to today's hydrogen bombs.... on top of that, the west can certainly start a war, but I'm pretty certain they can't win a war; particularly as Russia, China and the Middle East join forces as the west has been pushing for, for the last 2 decades.

[Fabio Caetano Figueiredo]

A true jewel...

[TastySanchez]

Awsome interview and a very interesting take on the evolution of morality at the end.

[MaryBeth Space]

This guy is so interesting. We all know Jordan researches the folks he interviews , but the good ape doctor is constantly delighted that my man knows so much. Wonderful interview.

[RudyWoodcraft]

Very glad I watched this interview--going to have to read those three!

[Jan Ruedi]

This was good. You listened and let your guest speak. Perhaps because this is a subject you're not versed in. Great job, keep this style up with interviewing guests!

[Claire El-Jabi Verdonk]

Fascinating! Thank you for this discussion.

[??? name]

Excellent interview. I learned quite a bit. The last part about the differences in aggression related to brain size, and the domestication of humans relating to lack of alphas, was especially enlightening.

[David Martin]

An amazing book about Aggression in animal behavior and by extension sheds incite into human aggression is a book by Konrad Lorenz called, “On Agression”. It’s one of my favorite books ever. Just thought I would suggest it

[grizzlygrizzle]

In a moderately tangential vein, given which of aggression or affiliation requires more cultural fostering, one should note that the implementations of Rousseau-esque ideologies have resulted in mass-murder with far greater frequency and severity than implementations of Hobbes' ideologies. I suspect this might have to do with the fact that acts of violence often have catastrophic and terminal consequences, while acts of kindness need to become habitual, if they are not to be undone by relatively few acts of violence. Even if both impulses are equally innate in us, as a numbers game, it requires few acts of violence to ruin a society that otherwise frequently manifests kindness, and this requires us to pay special attention to our aggressive impulses when we are talking about how our societies are formed. Utopian schemes based on Rousseau, Marx, et al. set up unrealistic expectations and set us up for bitter disappointments that trigger aggressive, "Off with their heads!" impulses. It only takes one act of violence to kill someone and undo a life of thousands of kind acts, so kindness isn't something to be taken for granted.

[Amon noma]

@godsmoker 1.0 gagarot Maybe the external influence in this " domestication" (which is a weird way of expressing it I agree) is human population size mixed with a complete change in human life style. It wasn't that long ago we lived as hunter gathers, sometimes not seeing other humans for months at a time. That tribal nature in humans came from this time. Now suddenly we live in cities of millions, and this tribal nature is incompatible for this environment. Humanity it seems is under going some sort of transformation to something that is more suitable to a densely populated species, and we are in the early turbulent stage of the transformation. Things will probably be completely unrecognizable from our point of view in a few generations. I'm no expert but it seems that way to me.

[seth .m]

@Amon noma consider how territorial invasions must have domesticated us as well, probably most aggressive males would mobilize to fight an invading army/group. I wonder if male populations twenty thousand years ago were substantially more aggressive or uncooperative.

[Bob Foster]

@Amon nomaTribes exist in cities. We call them gangs!!!

[Nigellus Olicanan]

Thoroughly enjoyed this intelligent and intelligible conversation

[Cow Pat]

Thanks Jordan. I really enjoyed that interview!

[Dan Ruiz]

Very few individuals who can articulate an argument with such passion and confidence. With an accuracy unparalleled these days.

[Ben]

Try University. Its like this every day.

[Willy Perez de Corcho]

Amazing!!!! Thank you Jordan for this.

[Delbert Osborne]

Out of all the Deciplans required to map the Origins and Development of Homosapiens. I'm to believe that we came out of Aferica and migrated to an exstreme cold clmate. I've definitely got too do some serious research on this issue.

[Steve Martin]

Former Associate Prof. here in Japan (undergrad biology UNC-W, grad school - Education Temple University Japan) watching this great show. I am a big fan of primatologist Frans de Waal too - who posits the roots of human morality as in the empathy and reciprocity of some social animals. I put those two variables at different levels of abstraction, and have redefined human morality for myself as simply 'empathy driven behavior'. Rule driven behavior (that of customs, traditions, laws, algorithms , etc.) is a necessary neural re-routing of direct empathy when we exceed Dunbar's number. I was intrigued by the conversation enough to have bought the Kindle version of Wrangham's first book, and suspect that in-group, out-group violence is a legitimate counter argument to parallel economies at the community level proposed to counter to the recent rise in concentrations of political/economic power at the expense of individual rights. I am literate enough in history to be aware of Unit 731 and Howard Zinn ... and Dunbar's number alone can not account for the human-created horror. By the way, the 1980's Japanese movie ... 'The Ballad of Narayama', where people who reach the age of 70 are taken to the mountain top to die. This year, 2022 at the Cannes Film Festival, Japanese director Chie Hayakawa is revisiting the theme of encouraged suicide of the elderly, but at the age of 75. Though I've lived here in Japan for the last 40 years, I'll be 67 this September. That gives me eight more at the most. ;-)

[michael s]

I don't think empathy is the primary driver of morality. I think the primary driver is the need to control free riders of various kinds, individuals who seek to benefit themselves at the expense of other group members.

[Steve Martin]

@michael s Hi Michaels. Thanks for an alternative idea, and for the implicit acknowledgement that this topic is important in these times of 'wokeness'. Frans de Waal puts reciprocity on an equal footing with empathy, so he might agree with you. But in thinking about it, I am wondering about two things ... 1) - this might involve more complex thinking such as first identifying, then comparing and contrasting, then calculating in comparison with others in the group, then considering strategies for control, and ... 2) - whereas mirror neurons might account from immediate empathy, I'm wondering what morphological feature might be most highly correlated with the above functions. Cheers from Japan! steve

[Alberto Einsteinium]

I've done some stuff in this area. One of the specialisations for somewhat early humans was most likely not all that specialised. It was most likely a combination of in a sense easy pickings and tapping food sources likely to be easily digested. Language assisted greatly in saying what was and wasn't edible or accessible and then how. Human mobility and our hands do mean early humans could forage quite well for all kinds of opportunities. The problem with early human evolution that most people don't get is that it's not as specific or specialised at the kind of easier examples of evolution to deal with. The adaptations of early hominids would tend to make them quite versatile, jack of all trades, master of none. There is more to this process but it starts there. A brain, social ability, rearing of young, dedicated locomotion and manipulation all form an optimal generic layout that really deviates from common examples in evolution. What you're talking about, electing who to go first and so on, was a substantial part of culture and one which shamans likely originated from in at least some cultures. Sometimes it would be the tough one, the fast one or the most expendable one depending on the challenge. Though for things like figuring out what's safe to eat or not, one of the most common things to do when in a new location is to observe what the wild life does.

[trequor]

I really liked that Peterson asked methodological questions

[Paul Monkcom]

Fascinating. Really good conversation. Thanks

[Jose Fernandez]

I had been saying the same thing over and over, over several years. Isn't it disgraceful the fact that a man risks everything to show us how awful the army forces were conducting themselves and, for that, he is in prison, whereas the two most evil people that allowed this to happened, are free, enjoying life and be becoming millionaires. How can we allow this to happen, what kind of cowards have we become? I am ashamed and embarrassed

[jesusr medina]

Excellent appreciation of human behaviour, I hope that we do not end in some kind of totally destructive conflict like a nuclear war. It is incredible that we the brain that we humans are supposed to have we have come to create such a destructive technology. Worst than that we do not seem to understand the destructive and long lasting power of these weapons.

[KyriaNunNuit]

The Japanese movie Jordan Peterson mentioned was "The Ballad of Narayama" and it really is hard-hitting. It's notable that - in modern society at least - communication is considered more the realm of women, who in a way "weave the fabric if society" through their interactions. I think the possible (albeit less visible) role of the females of the species in this far-reaching chang of the social structure of our species should not be entirely overlooked - as it has been by the esteemed professor(s).

[Wolf Samuels]

Just been going through the comments hoping to find the name of this film so thank you ! 😊

[Christopher Gillespie]

Well said.

[Tim]

Well the opening statement was about differences between human/chimps on the one side and every other species on the other. It was not to diminish female contributions to anything! (But female cooperative groups are the rule in the animal kingdom - male groups are the exception!)

[grizzlygrizzle]

Women tend to engage in communication more frequently, and tend to be more familiar with it, while men have tended to be the innovators of the means of communication. Looking at the discovery/invention of logic, developments in mathematics (an abstract system of symbolic representation and communication), innovations in genres of literature and in the sciences (which bring new concepts into language, the overwhelming majority of new creations that expand the domain of what can be talked about accurately and effectively, and which have stood the test of the survival of the fittest, and have proved of value to subsequent generations, have been accomplished by men. -- At least one woman in the field of linguistics has noted that much of women's talk is "chatter." One cannot deny that there have been many women who have made huge contributions to poetry, prose, logic, mathematics, and science, but when one gets past the feminizing bias of recent centuries, a more even-handed analysis of the creative-destruction processes involved in EFFECTIVE innovation will show that their being boosted by testosterone-fueled impulses has been demonstrated throughout history.

[Roli’s Reef Ranch]

@grizzlygrizzle Exactly

[Jordo Chappers]

There is so much information here to digest where does one begin? It's a humbling and sobering insight into power dynamics, social cohesion, biology, species sexual behaviour and so much more. Very insightful and profound.

[Mark]

I found this a very interesting conversation talking about human and ape behaviour. I'm always interested in the history of humans and how we have evolved from apes. This is why I listen to KZbin much more than terrestrial TV these days.

[alehandro del]

Enjoyed it a lot! Thank You! 🙏

[Eckyhade]

I took psychology at Marquette U. Decided quite soon in the semester I was way too crazy to continue. So, I switched to philosophy and theology to calm down. Thanks to our great professor Dr. Jordan B Peterson is here to guide us.

[Nat]

Dear Jordon Peterson, would love to hear a show on your thoughts on the teacher Barry Smith who predicted all the things that are happening now. He was telling everyone what is happening now was coming back in the 90’s.

[Janaya Zimmer]

Dr. Peterson your interviews never cease to enrich my day! Thank you for providing such thoughtful conversations.

[Brice Thompson]

Most excellent conversation!

[Wayne Price]

I loved listening to this discussion thank you gentlemen! Has anyone posted the name of the Japanese movie Dr. Peterson was referring to?

[simon young]

It's refreshing;I'd call that conversation, Beautiful. If only our Public Channel Interviewers had Jordan's mindset.