Primed and Loaded | 17th Century English Mail Armour

[@Corvinuswargaming1444]

John Smith also most probably saw chainmail being worn when he fought in Transylvania, both Hungarian and Ottoman cavalry wore it extensively, a theatre where archery was also still being used.

[@knutzzl]

Here in European reenactment we have fortunately also moved on to riveted mail. Have a look at the mail found on the Mary Rose (16th cen. Ship) quite a bit of it is made by twisting the ends of the ring around like you would binding rebar in construction.

[@JYFMuseums]

archaeology.co.uk/articles/news/x-ray-analysis-of-chainmail-from-the-mary-rose.htm www.archaeology.org/news/8663-200429-england-chain-mail Copper alloy rings were a common method of accenting the iron rings and creating a finished edge. Copper alloy rings also served well as the stitching point when sewing pieces of mail to arming garments. This ring, though does leave us with questions because we cannot think of an extant mail shirt of such twisted ring construction, and it leaves us wondering was the ring an expedient repair?

[@TheNorthlander]

Getting to see the actual process of preparing maille rings was amazing, thank you for your work!

[@edward_jacobs]

Big fan of Fred! Would love to see him talk about armor for hours!!

[@jamesread1607]

We at JYF happen to be fans of Fred's too!

[@danewidner7482]

This is one of the better overviews of making riveted maille

[@starsea3313]

Thank you soooooooo much for showing how to actually make riveted maille armor!

[@JYFMuseums]

You're very welcome!

[@Wildwest89]

This is amazing, I’ve read about mail and seen pictures of how it was made but have never seen it demonstrated so clearly.

[@JYFMuseums]

Thanks! Glad you liked it.

[@tobiashagstrom4168]

I've done 3-dmoelling of mail before, but then I depicted the mail rings as butted, but round cross-section. If I re-do that model, I'll make sure to make the butted mail rings flattened, to be more accurate and make more sense.

[@charlesdeleo4608]

As someone who has made his own suit of mail armour, I can attest to how time consuming this process is, but it is definitely worth it in the end, as you will have an effective suit of armour to wear, whether you were an 11th century Norman knight fighting at Hastings and the First Crusade, or a 17th century soldier in the Jamestown garrison.

[@cranohlandt2299]

Awesome video Fred! Thanks

[@michaelpettersson4919]

It seem to be very time consuming to create mail armour. I suspect they where kept in use and repaired when needed over a long time. That means that at least during medivial times they could probably see use as somebody's hand me downs for centuries.

[@jamesread1607]

I would tend to agree. As Fred indicated the English longbow and the advent of the firearm brought on the decline of mail and its eventual demise as a top of the line armour on European battlefields. It would continue to find use among the likes of the English and Scots Border Reivers in the 16th and 17th centuries, and because of the nature of warfare against the Powhatan, mail would see use in Virginia, including the arrival of 400 shirts of mail from the Tower of London in 1623.

[@CommissarMoody1]

If memory servers. Supposedly the British after the battle of Omdurman 1898. Captured a set of mail dated back to the first crusade. I am sure it had a few links replaced from time to time.

[@w.reidripley1968]

Yes. Not only does the stuff never wrinkle, it wears like iron.

[@w.reidripley1968]

@@jamesread1607 And mail shirts and sleeves of mail weren't suited to wilderness fighting regardless of how heavily or lightly made. You needed ground speed cross country. Letters sent back to England reported the stuff wasn't worth its bother; don't send us any more army surplus mail. Send good guns and powder.

[@jamesread1607]

@@w.reidripley1968 Regarding letters referring to the use of and attitudes towards armour, we'd love it if you would share with us the particular letters you're referencing. We are always happy to be put onto new early-17th century Virginia primary sources. I'd be interested to know why you believe that mail was not suited for service in Virginia. How was Virginia so different when compared to the most recent English experiences in Ireland and The Netherlands? The English did understand that the mail was old, especially compared to the more modern plate armour, but it was available in number, cheap and effective against native arrows, and only fell out of favor in Virginia once the natives had more widespread use of firearms. Finally as far as "ground speed cross country", one of the most significant features of fighting and warfare in early-17th century Virginia was the English reliance on ships and boats to prowl the Virginia rivers and attack Powhatan towns amphibiously. In fact you could describe the fighting in Virginia as the combining of "feed fights" as practiced in Ireland and offensive boat operations. The English just did not carry the fighting cross country, especially since they could freely move unmolested on the rivers by boats and ships. With a notable exception being in August 1611 when Sir Thomas Dale marched 350 soldiers, in part as a demonstration of their capabilities, from Jamestown to the northwest nearly 40 miles to a site selected for the construction of a new fortification known as Henricus.

[@jeffreyragsdale3569]

Fred, do we know what kind of padding the used? Gambeson was common for the medieval soldier as it helped absorb some of the shock from swords and added an additional layer for arrows. I've seen some Jamestown and early American re-enactors use just a shirt. Or would t be more akin to a later 15-16th century arming jack?

[@JYFMuseums]

Our belief is that gambesons were probably not in use. Like mail they were old, outdated, and no longer fashionable. By this time in the early-17th century, jerkins and arming doublets were established as the useful and fashionable military garments worn to protect clothing and as a layer under armor, arming doublets often having some padding. Buff coats were just starting to appear in Europe as well. There are mentions of quilted coats and quilted bases used as armor, but a quilted coat would serve as an armor on its own. We believe that in Virginia it is likely that mail shirts were just worn over doublets and cassocks.

[@calebwelch6393]

Fascinating video! Do y'all have any book recommendations about this subject?

[@jamesread1607]

Hi Caleb, Fred said to try these two books -- The Armourer and His Craft from the 11th to the 16th Century, by Charles Ffoulkes and Techniques of Medieval Armour Reproduction, by Brian R. Price.

[@calebwelch6393]

@@jamesread1607 Thank you! I’ll make sure to check these out when I get the chance.

[@michelehumphrey852]

Curious if the metal rusted. Great video. Thanks for sharing. 😊

[@jamesread1607]

Yes the iron does indeed rust. From :40 you will notice the mail shirt that Fred has sitting in front of him does have a rusty brown hue to it. We find that when the mail shirts are not getting handled or regularly used they'll get rusty hue. And when they're regularly handled the metal darkens up a bit.

[@CommissarMoody1]

Another great video. What gage steel do you guys use? I might try my hand at makeing some myself.

[@JYFMuseums]

Fred says that he uses 16 guage wire for making the flattened riveted rings.

[@CommissarMoody1]

@@JYFMuseums Thank you!

[@TheMonkeyBros]

Would you know when this armor stopped being used in the colonies?

[@jamesread1607]

I would not attempt to say when mail armour specifically stopped being used in the colony, but I would say that the use of armour in general would have ceased use probably by 1677, if not before that time. By 1677 we have seen the end of three major Anglo-Powhatan wars (1609-1614, 1622-1632 and 1644-1646), as well as the close of Bacon's Rebellion, the Treaty of Middle Plantation, the Powhatan Paramount Chiefdom subjugated to English colonial authority, and the English firmly established in the Chesapeake. As we reach the late-17th century future conflicts will tend to take place on the frontier much further into the interior and away from the established English settlements of the Tidewater along with the reality that many Native American tribes are going to have increasing access to European firearms and trade means that armour is no longer as useful as it had been in the early to mid-17th century when the English were facing the Powhatan armed with bows.

[@jacobrigby3172]

I'm wondering was it all leftovers from previous centuries dug out of an old armory/storehouse or did they make fresh shirts for the colonies? and if so we're any noticeable changes to mail compared to earlier era's ie thinner gauge wire because you're not fighting against steel weapons or you want it to be lighter and more bearable. was it tailored to the body for a better fit or was it a one size fits all kind of deal?

[@JYFMuseums]

Yes, the mail sent to Virginia was probably leftovers from previous decades. By the early 17th century there was just not much use for new mail armour, and the few pieces of mail that were made were sleeves to go along with plate armour or gussets to provide some additional protection where plate could not effectively cover, such as the inside of the elbow. As far as the pieces of mail found in Virginia, there is nothing about it that makes it stand out as something different or unique to Virginia. Probably the best reference that is available is the 400 shirts of mail that were sent to Virginia in 1623 from the stores at the Tower of London. It seems that Virginia also became a haven for old armours in general. Not only have the remnants of mail been found, but also the remains of jack coats and brigandine have been excavated. This old armour for Virginia is described at the time as "not only old and much decayed but with their age growne also altogether unfit and of no use for modern service." In context modern service is service in Europe and Virginia was not considered modern service. Additionally, while armour is shipped to Virginia, quilted coats and jack coats may have also been made in Virginia. There is evidence of small iron plates being cut and a hole punched in the middle of the small plate, that could be sewn into a jack coat.

[@michaelj132]

A great demonstration. Is it know how old the mail used in Virginia was? For example was it newly produced or left over from the medieval period? I have just discovered this channel and I think you do great work. Hopefully I can get over to the US to visit your museums in future.

[@JYFMuseums]

Good question, and unfortunately there is really nothing to indicate exactly when any of the mail armor used in Virginia was made. We presume that it is old, because it had fallen out of favor and general use, but the armor can be old without being medieval, and is likely decades old rather than several centuries. We wish there was a better answer.

[@michaelj132]

@@JYFMuseums Thanks for the answer. I imagine your presumption about the age is probably accurate. I am sure I have seen art work of 16th century English forces in Ireland using mail. Also artwork of Northern horse/ border reiver type light cavalry wearing mail. So it would not be surprising if 16th century mail was still available. Thanks for the response 👍.

[@JYFMuseums]

@michaelj132 Exactly. We know that border reivers were still wearing armors like mail, as well as quilted coats and jack coats.

[@rickstevens5592]

What kind of rust prevention did they employ to maintain it in that climate?

[@JYFMuseums]

There was no effective method to prevent oxidation on mail armour, though putting mail in a cask with an abrasive like sand and rolling it was probably the most effective method to clean mail.

[@Daylon91]

The English longbow wasn't ANY different than longbows before it. It was the literal draw weight of the bow that made it more powerful

[@michaelsommers2356]

So it was different.

[@tobiashagstrom4168]

Does riveted mail wear one stuff like clothes more, since it's got more edges and little points on it? Imagine those have more friction and snag more on stuff.

[@JYFMuseums]

Historically mail armour would be worn over a padded garment known as a gambeson and by the 17th century with the decline of mail and rise of plate armour, leather & cloth jerkins or arming doublets became the garments commonly worn under armour to protect one's clothing from the armour. We find with our mail that sometimes the rust comes off on the wearer's clothing. Thats about it.

[@Miggytiggy]

They probably did flatten the ends then overlaped them when looking at museum example they look not so perfectly circular

[@MauricesExoticPets]

There are some maille armors with oval rings, they have some unique characteristics to them for sure. The design appears intended to align the overlaps, which is incredibly visually appealing. This style of ring is not without its issues, for example; if the rings are sized such that they can rotate, some will. Oval rings out of place can "knot" and inhibit the mailles flexibility.

[@jackthunderbolt4307]

man it must be faster to get through a divorce than making anything mail

[@debbiej.2168]

That riveted armor must be very time consuming to produce.

[@JYFMuseums]

Yes. And to reduce the manufacturing time, increase the number of workers on the piece.

[@terrorcop101]

Gotta ask, if mail was so effective against Native arrows, why didn't the American Army equip its troops with it for the Indian Wars? Natives couldn't get guns and ammo except through trade and looting, nor iron and steel blades and arrowheads except in the same manner, so the soldiers would've been up against stone weapons at least part of the time. I realize, by the later years of the 19th century, the Native economy had been overtaken by trade with whites and that affected their ability to traditionally craft stone weapons, but it still seems that mail would've been good to have at least up until the Civil War era, depending on who you were fighting.

[@jamesread1607]

I think that it is important to consider the fact that while mail was effective, it was nonetheless an armour technology that was well on it way out -- its use in Virginia is only a temporary reprieve. The various native nations in the Americas are certainly going to be very quick to appreciate the benefits that a firearm brings and soon acquire those weapons as well. And once the various native and European economic and political interests align and alliances are made, Europeans become a source of quality firearms for a very savvy native market with the natives being rather demanding customers. By the time there is such a thing as an American army, there has been at least 150+ years of brisk commerce in firearms to the point that it would have been madness to consider any kind of armour effective protection, never mind the reality that warfare had also moved past the use of armour of any sort.

[@terrorcop101]

@@jamesread1607 not necessarily any kind of armor, plate still saw some use through the Napoleonic Wars and then some, but I get your point. Guess what I was trying to argue is that Natives weren't making their own guns and little in the way of powder and noting like priming caps; when it actually came to war time, they had to rely on what they could get, meaning once out of ammo, it was back to basics until they got more, especially on the Plains. Settlers and soldiers had similar logistical problems. Still point taken.

[@jamesread1607]

@@terrorcop101 The point I would make though is that it was not necessary for the Natives to have their own domestic arms manufacturing base, when there were individuals, business interests & merchant houses, colonial & European governments more than willing to provide quality arms and munitions to the many Native nations and to keep them well supplied. If we bring this back around to the early-17th century English experience in Virginia, as long as the English are facing Powhatan armed with their own bows, they understood that all sorts of armour would be effective protection against Powhatan arrows. However, once the Powhatan gained access to and understood how to use firearms that armour was much less effective and would quickly fall out of use. In the period of the 1st Anglo-Powhatan War, the Virginia Company officials were careful to try and keep firearms out of the hands of the Powhatan and made attempts to recover firearms anytime they were lost in skirmishes and battles to the Powhatan. After the end of the conflict in 1614 and until the start of the 2nd Anglo-Powhatan War in 1622, English settlers saw little issue in lending or providing firearms to the Powhatan. Pretty much from that point forward over the next many decades, the access to and use of firearms by Natives simply are going to increase and as a result a clear decline in the importance of armour and its use in the colonies.

[@terrorcop101]

@@jamesread1607 And that's why I said I got your point. Someone's always going to be willing to sell stuff, especially if somebody tell them not to. In the later years of the Indian Wars, the US government attempted to restrict the sales of guns and ammo to any tribe deemed hostile, but black marketeers are always out to make a buck. And that's without considering political rivalries back during the colonial era.

[@w.reidripley1968]

@@terrorcop101 Nobody had percussion caps until rather early in the nineteenth century. For some time, the Indians yet preferred the flintlock, as these locks better suited the kind of supplies they had best access to. Percussion caps would have been one more dang thing to find money to buy, unlike flint which they knew how to find. It took the advent of the cartridge arm to make the difference.