Pro Cyclist FTPs, How to Raise Your Threshold Faster, and More - Ask a Cycling Coach 410

[@mustridefaster]

In regards to high level racing in the US, particularly criteriums, there is rampant and deliberate "aggression" and shoving, barging, pushing riders around. Just last week a video from one of Legion's riders had a highlight of one of the Miami Blazer's riders literally shoulder barging another racer out of the way in a non-critical, non-race significant straight away, simply because he wanted that position, and it was defended and even "celebrated" as "just part of the sport" at that level. Some of this made its way to the public eye last year when two of the best crit racers in the nation came to blows after a race in full public view. To my knowledge, the in-race aggression is not policed at all by USAC and it has become a widely accepted norm when the "pro" crit teams show up to race. While the argument can be made that pro riders have the "skill" to handle that level of contact while doing 35mph 5 wide in a corner, the reality is that this accepted norm is making its way down the categories as aspiring racers see this behavior and accept it as not only the norm, but as a required skill to crit race in America. The unintended consequences is watching almost every men's race and even many of the women's elite fields at most national level events like Tulsa Tough, Gateway Cup, and others having multiple race neutralizations from mass casualty crashes that were almost all attributable to unnecessarily aggressive and unsafe riding. Anecdotally, I know personally about 20 riders who raced Tulsa Tough last year at Cat 1, 2, or 3. Of the 20 or so that I know, I know of only 1 person who did not get crashed out, and that was my son in the Cat 3 field who actually rode over a crashed riders bike but managed to stay up. Everyone else went down. To a man, none of them are going back to Tulsa Tough this year because the risk is too high. instagram.com/reel/CpoUFO5g5hT/

[@EricAbbottTri]

Was going to comment saying this. There was a Legion rider that was bigger and just pushed a smaller rider out of line. Super unsafe and a total dick move.

[@ayowser01]

that confrontation must have looked like those air-filled characters you see outfront of car dealerships 😄

[@corymolloy-advertisingprof4689]

I enjoy riding my bike not crashing my bike. If that's the kind of games people want to play in races, I want no part of it.

[@paulwood4142]

You can't even legally have an E Bike in the UK over 250w lol. FTP of 400w plus is so amazing to me, it feels like a max leg press effort around there for me not something I could keep doing for an hour! (I have around 200w FTP)

[@landixus]

So if you reach 250W your body needs a license plate :) *where can we mount this? :)

[@thomasoo2944]

funny comment at 26:33 given the performance at this year's tour

[@vorzap]

For the road aggression part, it would be great if you could help familiarize folks with filing SafeSport complaints for repeated harassment and bulling.

[@natorpen-palmer7192]

Thought Chad and Nate looked/sounded a bit off, yesterdays announcement explains allot...

[@jerrydixon9865]

When I was living in Miami I would do the Biscayne group rides 3 times a week. I never touched zone 2 in any of these group rides and my FTP absolutely went through the roof because it was a race simulation every time.

[@idiotcommenter]

It’s difficult to compare Wout and MvdP to 95% of the pro peloton, much less mere mortals

[@trevorfilipiak1247]

What the darn heck are you doing?!?!

[@adaml5473]

What…

[@robertm1552]

Doing you?

[@Willjcbaker]

You guys need to watch the video

[@hnchnc]

Little did we all know this was Chads last podcast 😭😭😭

[@CycoWarriorx]

😢

[@keeferification]

Bring outdoor workouts to the Karoo 2 pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

[@Bultish]

36:43 I find riding threshold is the most enjoyable, feels like drowning 😅 But compared to vo2max its a breeze, and I kept my sprint numbers after a long period of ftp intervals 👍

[@benemery9547]

Thank you! This is really helpful. Small note: Puerto Rico is a colony of the US, so it's not ~exactly~ international travel. But also not quite domestic. It's complicated and generally very crappy for the families who've been there for generations. I am planning to bring a bike though, so maybe I can take "live high train low" to an absurd extreme. But it seems like the best move is to mostly not stress about it.

[@davidmurphy9151]

Puerto Rico is a US territory - it is not a state but it is part of the US. Its citezens are Americans and it is part of the US. Not that gray.

[@petermyers4409]

Do the citizens of PR get to vote in the US elections? Genuinely interested I'm European so I am ignorant on the details.

[@benemery9547]

⁠@@petermyers4409They don’t vote in US elections and have only nonvoting representation in congress. The arrangement is closer to an occupation than it is to US citizenship

[@JulAlxAU]

Fifteen minutes into the video and not a single word about FTP! Can you please remain objective and keep it short and sharp as possible!?

[@OneWheelLess]

Hehe, I won’t initiate a conflict, but if someone tries to push me I’m gonna drop my shoulder and hockey check them into the woods. (Xc racing) there’s no need to elbow or push people, don’t take yourself so serious. If you try I’ll gladly make it memorable.

[@ds6914]

Lady ftp's. Worth remembering that they have higher body fat% than the men.

[@sramirez824]

The Tulsa 1-2 is full of the hungriest and most aggro racers from across the country... that all want a shot to race in the P1. It is chaos

[@jonathanwise47]

I always thought banging helmets together was just part of the fun. I feel like vo2 and anaerobic work "makes space" so that threshold can increase quicker.

[@casladek]

last time i checked thru axles thread into dropouts, to say axles absorb all impact forces and frames, none, makes little sense. how many of you out there who have spent thousands of your hard earned currency on a carbon frame are willing to jump up and down on its carbon dropout or take a hammer to it??? my gut says that number is approaching zero. who cares if the mech can withstand 600 kg of force, can current carbon dropouts handle it? has SRAM produced scans of any of the test frames to show zero carbon layup compromises after impact? the jury is definitely out...especially until frame manufactures up their game with respect to dropout designs, specs, tolerances, QA/QC programs and warranties.

[@jamiec2188]

Exactly. The axle is a rigid structure, it can't absorb any force. So in the event of a crash that force is absolutely going into your frame. I'd like to think that Sram have done their homework and know it won't be breaking frames, but I'm still a little skeptical.

[@danjelle3404]

I love any technical discussion about racing, whether or not I participate in that particular endurance sport. Good luck Jonathan!

[@robp3431]

With respect to construction materials/layup, especially with gravel bike on rougher terrain, there can be great differences in comfort. And thats' not just aluminum to carbon, but also carbon to carbon comparisons.

[@pippinc7113]

Lance admits to about 440-450 watts for 20 min without epo; and all pros at the time felt epo recovery gained +10% over that. But food nutrition and on bike recovery today, along with better aero today are many reasons why riders are so fast today. Wout and Vanderpoel get so much from CX racing. These guys can manage in their bodies and can process lactic acid at rates so much higher than less average folks.

[@chickenpoodle]

there are good and bad alloy bikes, just as there are good and bad carbon frames, etc. a well made alloy frame can be incredibly good. the compliance issues that many people used to have with alloy bikes being too stiff, are mostly gone now. between carbon wheels, wider wheels, wider tires, lower pressures, carbon seat posts, etc, they ride just fine.

[@velo1337]

if you read what the best coaches in the world prescribe, you have to do so much work UNDER the intensity you would be able to complete it, its absolutly mind blowing. you really have to train within yourself and hold yourself back on most workouts. otherwise you kill your following workouts....

[@thenoclue90]

20:50 SRAM chains are much less efficient already so hopefully not put more behind by the new technology

[@medallionsales]

I go to the masters class this year and am worried that it 'll be like starting over. They are faster than the fourty year olds. The group is smaller but faster. Old pro's are gonna kill me.

[@thewisconsingravelcyclist]

Baby powder in the socks for after the swim. Works well for me to help with any water after the swim.

[@veganpotterthevegan]

The Michael Jordan example isn't very good. To not play basketball for decades, to being an ok minor leaguer in a short time is exceptional. Maybe MJ doesn't have a good hematocrit. But I'm sure he could have made a very good long/high jumper, possibly a very good 400m runner, and definitely a very good baseball player if he never quit playing in his teens.

[@Bultish]

Ive been a casual biker for all my life, no mopedas a teen just biking everywhere. First ever 20min ftp test was 4 years ago 340W smth, then did some more unstructured biking just more volume (fun with colleagues who made me buy new road and mtb). Next ftp 360. Then one and a half years ago I stopped gym strength training went all in on the bike. In January I started ftp intervals (2-3 sessions a week, two days z2) with progression after watching Dylan 😅 3-4 months later I took a good day and tried a 20 minute interval at 420W. Worked well, best shape ever 👍 Im 40yrs old, 83kg är the time, 2 new kids 😂

[@BMX73THE2ND]

Doubt

[@Bultish]

@@BMX73THE2ND isn't there always, who would have the time and energy though 😜

[@mathewrose2951]

I'm definitely curious to see what happens with my threshold this summer when I visit family at 600 feet elevation after living at 2000 meters over the past year. I'm expecting some increase just by having more oxygen-rich air to breathe, but I've never lived at elevation before. It will be my first data point on how my body responds, since individual mileage will vary.

[@JNorth87]

I lived in colombia at 1600 meters for a couple months and trained there. I came back to Miami at sea level and did. the highest 30 minute power I had ever seen.

[@neilmckenna236]

The top GC guys are producing BETTER wpkg than LA was doing ......... they are blitzing the fastest accent times too....

[@veganpotterthevegan]

My bet is that a lot of pros lie about their weight to avoid suspicion and accusations with their watts per kilogram too.

[@neilmckenna236]

@Veganpotter Thevegan good call, that could well be the case. What we actually know is that the accent times are faster now. Of course, there is no PED being used now....... the rider's are just smashing the so-called mutant rider's of a few years ago.

[@michaelstleger9888]

@@neilmckenna236 Yes but even 'clean' riders are pushing every known advantage. The bikes are defo faster as is the kit/ clothing and most if not all top pros are doing multiple wind tunnel visits in both road and TT positions. This makes a huge difference.

[@neilmckenna236]

@@michaelstleger9888 absolutely .... and so they should 👍

[@razorree]

everyone rides carbon mtbs, even ebikes, you can save .5-1kg !

[@barretxcr]

P1/2 at Portland Twighlight use to be a crash fiesta. Usually only 30 of 80 starters would finish with all the crashes. Very broken streets, L shaped course, a sea of fans and 10k in money make peoeple very aggressive

[@torbis75]

Have you guys read "How to skate a 10k" by Niels Van Der Poel? The Speedskater? ;-). Its quit interesting talking about FTP.

[@don_marcel]

15:46 The fiber weave affects torsional properties and directional compliance. The weave usually comes in 0, 90, +/- 45 degree patterns. Properly orienting specific weave types and designing the ideal tube shape both allow you to manipulate a frame's qualities.

[@dsonyay]

Talking about aggressive riders at about 6:00… just carry a few sticks to shove into their spokes.

[@bigaln1393]

If they try to push me they bounce off me. I am a 110kg sprint specialist

[@traversecitysufferclub]

One time I was in the peloton and another racer spit on me as he rode up to the front of the group. I had this crazy adrenaline rush and I rode up next to him and spit right in his face. His reaction was to attack up the road. He blew himself up, was caught, and then "spit out" the back. Lol. Watch where you spit and blow your snot!

[@0HereForAGoodTime0]

So here's my question on the elbows and pushing: why is it allowed if it considered to be unsafe? Other sports have similar elements. ARCA & NASCAR racing bump draft (not legal but they do it) and side scrape for position. Hockey has the enforcer checking dudes into the glass. All of these are unsafe. But the crowds love it! Crits have elbows. But no one can see that happening during the races. So what is the benefit to you as a racer to do it? If it gives a strategic benefit, why are there not rules as to when or how it can be done?

[@campbellhill86]

Love the podcast. Love the app. Love the AI components of AT and TN. Can I suggest/please request that torque Nm (instant/3s option) be displayed in the app UI during workouts? (Maybe as a toggle on/off feature like HR)

[@8584zender]

47:05 🤣 by that person's logic why not just raise the FTP in TR to 6W/kg to really get those workouts to advance to peak fitness! Pro contract here we come!

[@gregverellen3693]

Awesome, Good luck riding this year 2023 Im stepping back into fourm slowly. Bare with me. 😊

[@seanlamontagne7670]

Great podcast thanks for keeping it real. Listened while riding Sleeping Beauty +1. where the intervals are about 5 seconds longer than you want. 😅

[@bobfoster687]

I remember Bob Roll saying he ran the 880 yard run in 1:50 in high school. Example of transfer between sports.

[@Teamripper1]

Super entertaining podcast! I hope you kill it Jonathan! Thanks!

[@andrewwoffinden8671]

Belgian Kermeses in the late 90's were just next level aggression and there was no dealing with it, it just was what it was, but nothing phases me on a bike after that experience!

[@IHJR]

I feel like Ivy was trying to not call you all wimps for your elbowing comments lol :).

[@MTBryanH]

Great discussion! Glad I stumbled across your channel.

[@dsonyay]

You had me at clincher wheels. Take my money please

[@wsbygt]

So interesting to remember and think about this topic. Thank you!

[@jasonosunkoya]

MvDP / WvA / Pog are to the rest of the peloton what the peloton is to a cat 1

[@maxw5229]

That vision sounds awesome Nate, would be amazing!

[@veganpotterthevegan]

Loving Ivy's fannypack jab😅

[@asun3630]

I agree with Chad you are going to rock this Jon! The nerves will turn into adrenaline into excitement into plaid speed. There is always that moment in a race where you experience Nirvana and nothing else matters, just race tactics, endorphins and a finish line of success. I live in oceanside and work on the coast: Water is mellow right now.

[@falconsfootball28]

Z2 training question. My indoor max heart rate - in my cold garage in winter - is much lower than my outdoor max HR - based on race numbers. Should I adjust my training zones based on this? I mainly use HR for zone 2 but use power, too.

[@jimjamthebananaman1]

Figure out your power zones and stick with that. Heart rate is too variable as you can see, but power is power.

[@s.a.shaffer]

At 48:57, the talk turns to users finding TR workouts to be too difficult and those users bash TR. Nate's argument is that those users are picking too much volume to begin with. I concur but I feel this is where TR does fail to an extent in that the plan builder doesn't have controls for ramping volume or intensity. TrainerDay, a competitor, allows you to choose the starting hours, starting intensity, and the ramp rates for each when building a plan. While I prefer TrainerRoad over TrainerDay, I would love to see this feature added to the plan builder. There have been many setbacks in my training such as injury, illness, etc. that forces me to ease back into training. Fortunately, I have the experience to do this manually but new riders could greatly benefit from ramping controls, either direct or indirect. TR plan builder being able to start at 3 hours/3 rides per week and increase volume and rides to, let's say, 7 hours and 5 rides per week over the course of 3-6 weeks would be great.

[@philipk4475]

Ramp rates are kinda baked in with the training plans and progression levels

[@stuartmclean3843]

I dnt understand how Pidcock can compete with Wout and MVP when he is so much smaller and so much lighter and his ftp must be significantly lower than theirs, its incredible to me how he can compete with those 2 guys

[@philipk4475]

Because what matters is w/cda and w/kg, along with a huge amount of tactics (personal and team)

[@shannonmcgregor6004]

Good luck Jonathan!! I love the tri talk. Excited for you!

[@oliveoil2x]

Thanks for the podcast.

[@Philatlondon1]

But surely FTP isn't everything. Isn't short power better for road racing?

[@MrJohnnyTN]

2.0 will make me sign up again

[@LuffLab]

Nate is spot on regarding Cat5

[@Mylittledistraktions]

For The Pros

[@toddamelton]

Good luck Jonathan!

[@calandraco2888]

😂

[@chriswitek9455]

I've seen older masters getting aggressive, chopping wheels, and intentionally driving people off into the curb. Aggression doesn't die down just cuz the natural testosterone is lower 😂

[@Eirikkinserdal]

so high, you can not reach it on a TR program 😅

[@StopTheRot]

The top women ride at 6w/kg for over half an hour

[@lukewalker1051]

Most pros have a 250w FTW and race at about 4-5w/kilo.

[@TheConfusedCyclist]

Legion has taught people that shoving people around is ok

[@PhilEnsminger]

The only thing that may be more unbearable than cyclists talking about their own FTPs is cyclists talking about the FTPs of others. 😂 Love the pod, guys, but definitely skipped that part.

[@0nullrs]

Elbowing is a good way to catch these hands

[@Philatlondon1]

If they cannot hold this power for an hour, then it's not their FTP.

[@Lotustro]

So bike racing is not bumper cars? No fun I'm out