Pro Wrestling Basics: Heel Finishers vs. Face Finishers

[@TilWeMakeIt]

My playlist all about Finishers is right here: kzbin.info/aero/PLUyHqrf-_sDi156zodIdi8AZF6ui-85vw

[@InvestedDetailing]

As long as the move works for a wrestler from a character or psychological standpoint it shouldn't matter their alignment. One thing I seem to be noticing more lately is not many people seem to be trying to work towards their respective finishing move throughout the match. Whether it's diving for the legs for a leg submission or trying to get someone in position for an impact move.

[@retrokid6446]

I remember watching a clip from Al Snow saying how finishers should be, then I remembered one of the biggest Babyface moment of all time won via a crossface, I feel a submission finisher actually benefits a Babyface more as it really builds up the tension and excitement of seeing the hero win and the cowardly heel give up, obviously I mean no disrespect to Mr Snow of course, there is merit to the idea of course.

[@TilWeMakeIt]

I agree - there is merit in this idea. But it isn’t a rule, and I don’t think there’s much evidence to support it was ever widely adopted as such.

[@amir_oates]

Very informative, I honestly never thought about finishers in that context before in matches. Thanks!

[@TilWeMakeIt]

I'm glad - thank you!

[@zickelous]

Mr Quackenbush always in time, when I'm struggling with something, he uploads something I was really needing, thank you Mike❤

[@TilWeMakeIt]

You’re welcome, Zickelous!

[@DregStrummer]

I love listening to you. The intro you did about wrestling evolving makes me more excited and interested in your videos. I’m so early in the journey but your videos are so clear and helpful. I was discussing this very topic at class the other day because I’m a chickens*** heel and am trying to build my moveset around being cheap, undeserving and disrespectful and am trying to find some signature moves that really accentuate that character.

[@TilWeMakeIt]

Thanks Tony, I appreciate you! There’s lots of great heels from previous generations to explore, and to take inspiration from. Especially if can avoid material heels of the last 15 years or so used, I bet you can come up with a move set that both aligns with your character and feels unique.

[@Seanatonin]

It depends if you Kayfabe injure your opponents, like what Sid’s opponents getting stretched out post match, or a surprise win a La Sean Waltman’s moonsault win on Scott Hall in 1993

[@ripkackel7402]

Interesting vid, some stuff to ponder for sure. I feel like this notion might have less to do with old vs. new and more of just a general changes in attitudes towards phycology. I think things are a lot more 'high-light reel' now. On socials, individual moments get over, especially with indy work. I have seen/had to participate in a lot of matches that where chasseing 'moments' and not telling stories. I like to work indy/high work rate, I just like it to mean something. All that said, I think this 'rule' comes from a sorta crude interpterion of basic format. Heels heat so they should use holds, babies come back/hope/fight from under, they need something they can do suddenly. The reasoning is sound, but if some one understands the principle, they should be able to work the move/hold regardless. ultimately, moves don't get workers over, workers get moves over. Thanks for the vid, as usual it gave me something to thing about.

[@TilWeMakeIt]

Great point here, Rip! The way you defined "chasing moments vs. telling stories" perfectly encapsulates the shift to the Social Media Era from the Cable TV Era.

[@DarkAvengerVIM]

The equity point is one of the reasons that I actually agree with the old heads about using the Canadian destroyer or the Spanish fly as anything other than a finisher. As my trainer put it, "duck one, mind the gun." Because after huge move like that, if they kick out how else are you going to finish?

[@TilWeMakeIt]

Right. I’ve never heard “duck one, mind the gun” before. I’m stealing that!

[@chanyt5225]

Thank you Because im literally over here taking notes looking 4 tips on how to be a heel

[@TilWeMakeIt]

Happy to help, Chan!

[@JackgarPrime]

I feel like one of the reasons that old "common wisdom" existed could also be due to how having a submission move gives the heel a very straightforward story for the heat. Heel has a finish that targets the leg? Well, looks like that's where the heat and overall story of the match are going to be aimed at! I've also noticed another distinct difference between what I'd term face submissions, like the sharpshooter, vs heel submissions, like the figure four. In face submissions, the heel usually gives up quick, and they otherwise do everything they can to escape getting put into the hold at any cost, often through underhanded means or by pure luck. It shows how skilled qnd devastating the babyface's move is that the heel gives up so fast and is so terrified of the move. While in the opposite situation, the babyface can fight and claw and grit through the pain of being held in the move, getting over their toughness and tenacity. Of course, none of that is set in stone.

[@TilWeMakeIt]

Yes. I often think of this dynamic: the face’s mission is to overcome the pain, a heel’s mission is to avoid pain at all costs. If your selling and structure support these ideas, the move choice is secondary.

[@JackgarPrime]

@@TilWeMakeIt That's a great way to put it, and one I'll keep in my mental rolodex.

[@TilWeMakeIt]

@@JackgarPrime Yes, once I heard that, I never forgot it. It informs so much of the selling choices you have to make for a match to have the right feel.

[@RevolverR0nin]

I never heard the babyface should use impact spots/heels should use submissions idea. Though, I did hear something similar. Back when I was working, I used a 450 as my finish. My mentors were old school guys, so when I did turn heel, they insisted that I not use the move because it's a very babyface spot, designed to get a pop. That made a lot of sense, so I didn't use it during my time as a heel. But, to your point about how things evolve in wrestling, I remember seeing Pac (who was heel at the time) break out Black Arrows and still able to keep heel heat.

[@TilWeMakeIt]

This is great, Ronin! I’ve heard a similar principle: the heel shouldn’t have moves that are more spectacular than the face. So to use your example, the only way the 450 gets used as a heel is if the face you’re working has something that can top it.

[@stephenseydell1]

What are your taughts on heels doing flashy finishers like a 450? I wasn't a fan of it until I saw justin gabriel start to stall to look menacing at the top rope and it highlight the impact of the move

[@TilWeMakeIt]

Like with the example you mentioned Steve, so much of it is down to how it is performed. If you can imbue the move with menace, then I don't doubt that a heel could make it work. If the audience dreads seeing the 450 Splash used, despite how spectacular it is? You did your job as a good heel!

[@starshipjive411]

Where would you place 'strike' finishers?

[@TilWeMakeIt]

Great question. I think to fit the conversation of this video, they get lumped in with impact moves.

[@yasserbaaziz007]

Great video🔥

[@TilWeMakeIt]

Thanks Yasser!

[@KingofKarma619]

I have a question, if a heel has a submission move as their finisher would it not be a bit messed up for the face to tap out or give up

[@TilWeMakeIt]

Well, I don't think there's one answer to that. Context can change everything, and for every "rule" there is at least one exception!

[@ronniefaulconjr5711]

I wanted to ask, I noticed that sometimes when wrestlers win another promotion's championship, they would either bring them to the other program to show it off, or it's never seen with them. Is there like a permission to have a championship from another company appear on the other?

[@TilWeMakeIt]

Most times? Yes. Both organizations have to agree for this to take place. Some companies don’t give physical possession of title belts to talent, making this sort of thing impossible. They might get handed the belt right before their entrance, and return it as soon as the match ends.

[@ronniefaulconjr5711]

@@TilWeMakeIt Thanks for the info!

[@TilWeMakeIt]

@@ronniefaulconjr5711 You bet, Ronnie!

[@badwolfest83o8]

I'm a massive baby-face, and I use a Sharpshooter as a finisher.

[@joshmorth]

I think the reason that it's suggested that heels have submission finishers, is that the babyface is supposed to pass out and not "truly be beaten" by the heel. The flip side, babyfaces having an impact finisher, is that it's supposed to come from deep down inside the babyface after a tough battle and make the heel utterly unable to recover in time to kick out. At least, I think that's the logic behind it. In this way, it's a momentous occasion when someone does kick out or not pass out. I also think, that as a storytelling device, a finisher should really be used sparingly. A signed wrestler in a match with local talent really shouldn't need to use their finisher to defeat them. I think it seems excessive. Perhaps, in that situation, using a move that has less equity might be a better choice.

[@TilWeMakeIt]

These are all great points, Josh - thank you!

[@bigevil1001]

Heels become babyfaces and babyfaces become heels. So this question seems pointless.

[@943j]

hi mike quackenbush i really want to talk to you about something is it possible for me to get your email?

[@TilWeMakeIt]

Sure. It's up above, in the description.

[@943j]

@@TilWeMakeIt Thank you, you are the best