Problems with Meta Chasing in WoW

[@VitaminBeez]

This mentality is so pervasive, it's crazy. Not even just in WoW, MMOs, or hell - multiplayer games. People will try to minmax single player games!

[@mellowasiam]

This is the real dead Internet. We've optimized things until there's no soul left

[@rengarlothbrok5696]

Imagine min maxing and do less dps than me on my DH with personnal talents and 15 ilvls behind. (Just Imagine)

[@ArmandMehicic]

@@mellowasiam for real. I have begun playing POE 2 with my friends. Basically I'm the only one playing a build that I built for myself. Everyone else is putting together the prebuilt meta builds. I can't ever understand the fun in that.

[@omgnowairly]

People treat you differently when you have high dps. It’s your morality and value as a person. Low dps is trolling and they get no kindness or patience.

[@deseanroot75]

This^ I remeber when Elden Ring dropped someone I know said they were going to wait until all the builds were out before they play. Like dude, most of the fun is getting a new cooler looking weapon and just leveling up until you can use it. Why let the internet play the game for you

[@MrDoctorDave]

I am a Marksmanship Hunter, it's my favorite play style for ranged dps. I might use the best builds for my spec to get the best dps, but I would never consider changing classes or even spec to chase dps. That just doesn't seem fun. I play this game for fun.

[@greegeree]

Preach

[@jordanread5829]

During MoP (mainly SoO), I was maining a demo lock, which was the worse preforming lock spec at the time and nearly got cutting edge Garrosh. We were progging 25 man heroic Garrosh when the WoD prepatch came out. On that lock during 5.2, I did the green fire quest as demo. Which was the hardest spec to do that solo challenge on. During WoD I swapped to a gladiator warrior because I wanted to try out something experimental. Managed to do endless 30 proving grounds in 6.2 (after Blizzard did a small buff to Glad warriors and fixed some bugs involving the class buffs you got in the proving grounds if you weren't of said class). Even with those, wave 30 was tight. Really tight. With the guild I was at the time, we managed to get 10/13 bosses in Hellfire Citadel mythic before Legions prepatch. The issues we had were not the damage, just mere execution. And even then, my damage by playing off-meta specs was not an issue. I even got a rank 1 parse on mythic Hellfire Assault for Gladiator Warrior (inb4 someone says "of course you did, there are only 4 people playing it lol". When in fact it was around 2k for mythic). Unless you are pushing Hall of Fame achievements (top 100 cutting edge guilds) etc, you should not need to meta chase. Because at the end of day, you will meet the damage checks if you are pushing that sort of content towards the end of the season. Extra damage may kill the boss faster, but unless you execute the mechanics correctly, that extra damage will never be a factor. If you beat the enrage timer or the more dangerous cross overs that are designed to be a "soft enrage" per say, you are fine. You will get more enjoyment and probably do more damage playing a spec you enjoy anyway. Because if you enjoy the spec or class, there is a higher chance you will actively want to perform better. Not because you have to, but because you want to. Adding to this in an edit. A few years back during BFA, someone asked the warrior forums what stats they should seek out on a prot warrior. Where they were just looking to do more casual forms of content. Myself and a lot of other prot warriors gave the standard advise, which honestly is still true to this day. Item level tends to be more important due to additional armor, strength and stam. Even more so with Armed to the teeth back as of Dragonflight. For secondary stats ideally all four a good but haste tends to be preferred as it smooths out the rotation and rage generation. After that, versatility simply because vers scales well with ignore pain (in comparison to mastery via the AP % scaling) and the reduced damage taken, mainly in relation to magic damage is nice to have. Soon after we said this, someone came in and said that all of us were wrong because the top 1% of prot warriors in raiding or mythic + were stacking haste crit hard. You only did that if you wanted to parse hard. Crit's defensive bonus (parry chance) suffers from diminishing returns really quickly and Prot warrior mainly plays around blocking anyway. Telling someone who is new to Prot warrior "just do what the top 1% are doing) is dangerous. Those players have reliable healers, dps, know when to use defensive cd's, but internal (shield block for example) or external. They know how to play their spec and class really well that they can afford to sacrifice defense for offense. It is honestly funny how some random was acting like they knew what was best for players that is new to prot warrior, let alone tanking then actual cutting edge or cutting edge adjust players. If you are new to something, it is best to play it safe. You can take risks but that should be on you and you alone. Not be pressured by someone else.

[@tamas9554]

I always played Arcane mage during MoP, even though it wasn't particulalry great until SoO provided the high mastery stats the spec required. Of course, it wasn't a real issue unless I wanted to join a progress guild, which I did so in 5.4. What I realised then and only got reinforced in the later expansions too, is that the players who chase meta are often just bad players. They try to optimise the raid's damage to guarantee a clear, even though in the end its the mechanics that are the most important. Someone with passable DPS who always interrupts, walks out of the fire and focuses down the adds will always be more useful than the guy with a meta DPS spec. But then again, people got this elitist because they are tired too, I think. The ones who started this culture were probably also tired of bad players, because there are a lot of them. I too raided with people who played since Wrath back in MoP, they did normal gear DPS in BiS HC gear :D Most elitist players just want to clear the content and seeing non-meta specs appear only tells them that person doesn't have the same commitment to the game as they do. I think the best solution would be to just make the game less complex, but then again there are elitists in Classic too, so really I have no idea

[@asasdsaasda]

The issue is most people play 'meta' because like Kira, Yoda, or Gingi play it but they never question why players play meta or play at a level where meta matters, For a random example, the team I played with declined an MW because he was MW, the team disband at 13ish level of keys while that MW still play and times 15s, if you reach a level were meta matter, hats down to you, but 99.9% of players don't even come close to that level of gameplay, you will always perform better on a none-meta class if you are comfortable and play at 90%+ then a meta and play at 70% ish were the majority of meta chasers player

[@realBarny]

That Classic adjacent crowd is wrongfully playing Retail. A long term gearing system can not exist within a seasonal 22 week model. It's antithetical to long term progression. The people who ask for quicker gearing are right, because it's much better to "finish" a character within 8 weeks, than to finish it within 21 weeks and on your 22nd week there's a new season and all your gear you worked hard for is trivialized with M0 gear or even quest gear.

[@Boxkar24]

The only time I ever go for what is "meta" for my main that I raid with. The boss dying successfully is more important than me trying to do something different for personal reasons. That said, on my alts, I pick whatever is thematic to me. Especially now with hero talents. I can't for the life of me play a BM hunter as anything but pack leader, or a blood dk as anything but sanguine. It feels so wrong to go against those options since they fit so well. Hell even outside of wow, I habitually play with the blade of tirafion (whatever it's called) in Dragon Age: Inquisition. A staff that functions like a 2 handed sword! I cannot tell you how many times my characters dies being in melee but it just feels right! Play whatever the heck, you want and have fun with guys! Screw the meta!

[@ArmandMehicic]

People playing WoW (and other games) are forgot that they play for fun. I absolutely agree with you on the topic, I have been saying this to my friends who were always figuring out to play meta, or to have fun on their main. The only thing that I found that I don't think will ever work perfectly is that the commnunity have to make this good. First of all, the community made it this way, because they "evolved" into this. Blizzard has to act to regulate this toxic behaviour, while keeping a space for people who still wish to chase the META. It doesn't work like "Okay, go play another game if you want to play your preferred spec". This is the main thing, WoW is a game. Devs make it balanced all the time. The problem isn't the damage. If you can play your spec the perfect way, you will be good, always. The problem is the people fearing literally nothing and/or chasing their big numbers (parsing is the worst thing imo). I think the best approach for this would be, to make a dungeon finder for M+ (to test it out, if it works, it could be implemented to Raiding) - The system could automatically put together groups by their relative rating -> This way there would be no inexperienced people in higher keys, and you wouldn't get brain damage for manually clicking and waiting to get in for 30+ minutes - Shuffle a dps with bloodlust into the group Literally everything is built for this system, the problem that Blizzard fears that by doing this, they would lose the "remaining sense of community". I mean, what community? The one that you have to wait for 45 minutes while competing with 100 other dps to get into a group? The one that are assholes, 80% of the time? The one that you never see again, after you done your instance? The real community is the one you make for yourself. It has been always that way. But if you just don't have the time or energy to socialize with the majority of retail's "community", then there is no point having it for competitive play. Also, I would f*cking ban all boosting services regarding any payment form. Every single one of them. Like, go to work brother, like everyone else does.

[@DanH465]

Problem is there is a huge shortage of tanks, and healers. So whatever system you come up with is still going to be the same. DPS sitting in massive queues. Also the whole game and classes would have to be redesigned. It would be completely unacceptable for Blizzard to create a dungeon like Stonevault now where at a certain level curse dispels become mandatory. If blizzard were to put a group together without a curse dispel then they would be fucked. Once you start adding in all these parameters for Blizzard to try and include in each group: Dispels, bloodlust, battle res etc. DPS will end up in queues that are hours long.

[@ArmandMehicic]

@@DanH465 Every healer has the ability to dispell the mandatory mechanic. And of course the dps would be sitting massive queues, but at least they could do other, FUN stuff, instead of manually searching for a group to fit in. Also battle res is available now to at least half to the classes in game. I would also like to point out, that I would like to keep the manual group finding tool for high-end m+. So they could implement this automatic, experimental way for a more relaxed environment.

[@MikeGoesFithin]

So I’ve never CHASED meta but what I have done (usually do when the xpac is alt friendly) I start the xpac with my favorite flavor of tank and I usually hit some type of wall wether it’s raid prog/m+ score/ilvl and I get bored and then swap to something else and I try to make it something that is a no brainer zugzug class and I always end up learning more about the game and running with better players that I can then go back to my main and progress a little further. It’s a fun process. I try not to chase the meta but if I’m gonna make an alt I always look at what’s popping tf off at that time lol. Thanks for coming to my ted talk

[@covetousclub910]

I did this kind of thing in Warframe. It led to massive burnout, and I don’t want to play it all that much anymore, even with the 1999 update. Really don’t want to do that here in WoW like my brother who’s unsubscribed until season 2, so I’ve been avoiding raids and M+ like the plague.

[@crittykat]

not really a meta in raiding unless you are doing mythic. Every spec is viable in normal and heroic.

[@belisarian6429]

I also find it baffling that people are trying to push for meta and top damage and things like that, yea it has been few DLCs since I have seen real dps check boss. There are some bosses where people say they are dps checks (like third boss in current raid), but its not really it, since my guild for instance (filled with relatively average dps) managed to kill it while one player was dead almost whole fight. Dps check bosses are ones where all you will survive till the end(enrage or whatever) and boss is still not dead and you need to start optimizing for damage.

[@BuckCadigan]

meta chasing also kills new games like path of exile 2, like bro just play the game and have fun for once

[@BuckCadigan]

and classic wow, people focused on just max xp/h at all times means no talking or having fun at all. remember, friendships means xp loss.

[@Logan-ee5rx]

I used to chase meta now i play the spec that fits my favorite transmog. 😂

[@Wowhexx]

I think the fundamental problem is twofold. 1. Players really do not know what they want. 2. Players want something, but are dishonest about how they communicate it. Most players just don't really have well thought opinions on the game and are mostly just reacting to things in the moment. The things they say, do, or "believe" aren't really grounded in some ideological framework, instead they're just reacting to whatever or whoever is in front of them at that moment. They'll say they want WoW leveling to be slower paced, and then say that they want faster gearing. They'll say they don't want to play Retail because it's too sweaty, but then they'll spend hours hyper min-maxing in Classic despite the game not requiring it at all. The other camp is the folks that know what they want, but don't really want to admit it because it might be viewed as unpopular. They might say something like "Remove difficulties because the jump in gearing between tiers is too high." While this sounds like a reasonable ask, you learn pretty quickly when having a conversation with someone like this is that they don't really care that much about the drastic item level jumps between tiers, rather they are really looking for a single, frankly easier difficulty, because they don't like that certain players have better gear than they do by doing harder content. They just don't feel that they can voice this opinion without getting clowned on. The community is just rife with contradictions and varying opinions and there's no clean way to navigate this as a developer. No game has lasted this long with this many people still actively playing it. Blizzard really is on their own when it comes to figuring out the roadmap.

[@dread46]

Always mained demo, always will, only changed spec to destro when i felt like it. But for every boss i have a specific talent setups, preplace my teleport when possible etc. And since i do love this spec and know it inside out i am always parsing 80% and more, even getting a 99% here and there. A well played non-meta class will always be better than a mediocre performed fotm meta class. So why switch and have less fun? Besides that, another important point: generally and especially in m+, since i know demo inside out, i can not only pump big dick dps but also know ALL my defensive capabilites and ALL my utilities inside out. We had a guildie switch to SP once (due to meta and fotm shit) and he was dying so friggin often in raids until someone figured out through logs that he over a span of a few weeks not ONCE used Dispersion during heavy dmg phases. And dead dps remains to be no dps, as it always has and always will.

[@shadowsteppah]

I play thane fury war. Its peak. All tht matters to me

[@Xooo]

Totally agree!!! Exp firsthand just how better I could be if I focus on one main. =)

[@inadine]

If you arent playing top 1% or higher it doesnt matter what you play. So play what you enjoy Also the phrase is "a moot point". Moot meaning, having little or no practical relevance. Just as an aside 😊

[@Kronosbattlemaps]

I am Steve and play a frost mage. I feel singled out :(

[@netovalcacer359]

2 words I hate. Meta and Mythic. I'll never, even think about raiding Mythic again.

[@netovalcacer359]

Oh, 3. Parse.

[@LordProteus]

People who play Meta are NPC's.

[@thiagomassa9807]

I agree with your video if you are very casual, but if you are doing M+s and investing quite some hours of your week in the game because you want to progress and feel you are good. Playing a garbage class/spec will make you feel like the game is holding you back. And as you've mentioned, it takes a long time to grind the gear. It's frustrating. People quit a lot because of this, you know right? People chase the Meta or at least don't want to be the bottom % because the bottom really sucks, and the game is much more complex than you said in the video, as if everybody is a DPS and as if every DPS had the same amount of utility and aura buffs. They don't. When you are in the bottom of the DPS chart, have no utility, or have some aura buff that your healer already has it, let's be frank, even if you do 80% parse, your net contribution can be negative for the expectations of your M+ group or raiding guild. This becomes more evident the more importance your role has to the success of a challenge. Try playing Brewmaster Tank on high keys, you'll just flat out die. The "therapeutic" tone your video is good to get views and people to nod, when your viewership probably isn't the hardcore WoW players anyways, so to me it just sounds you want to say something that resonates with your audience and get KZbin views, not do a video of a thoughtful reason why you shouldn't "chase the Meta". I honestly believe that the best way to show Blizzard that you dislike the fact that they don't seem to play the game at all, as some classes are terrible, isn't to reroll or cry in forums, but to cancel the subscription, which seems to be the only thing that make them change and design a better game.

[@Nhouyengah]

I don't chase the meta, I chase the parse gotta get my other 99s, but I play mage I know i'm kinda privileged 😅

[@Sniprep]

While I agree with most of the video there is one gripe I have. Playing multitude of classes will improve your knowledge of the game immensely, which will most likely enable you to perform way way better. Most of the people who tend to hold onto one class find their "safe space" and if they don't push themselves out of it they will just end up in the mediocrity. I mean, this doesn't only count for the classes, but roles and raid management (leading raids). In the end people should just play how they want and have fun. But my point is that switching back and forth can just benefit you in a lot of ways. The only drawback is the potential loss of gear progress. What I'm saying is that your re-roll from Mage to Warlock will probably make you an even better Mage once you come back to it, giving you outside perspective of the class.

[@tamas9554]

I think this only matters if you want to raid/group lead or PvP, though. Learning other roles only means you learn how those specs are played, what mechanics you have to follow with them, but that isn't really tied to your class. I was always an Arcane main in the past, but then I tried Holy. Yes, I understood how another role has to play, but I didn't become a better mage because of it. I didn't get to know more about how my main spec should be played, as I already knew how to stand out of the fire or interrupt, or do my rotation :D I agree it makes you a better player overall, and that most people would severely need to see how a tank or healer has to play before flaming them for everything. However, thats mostly an ego thing, and people who play all 3 roles can still be arrogant af. Like, your Lock example falls very short imo, because its just another ranged caster DPS. You'd have to do the same mechanics in a raid, unlike with melee DPS who often get a different task. So to play your class well I don't think knowing other classes is necessary in PvE

[@ollaitsrealgood]

I completely disagree with this sentiment. Playing different classes within a type is going to do fuck-all to make you better. There is no amount of playing Warlock that will make you a better mage. Playing different classes that are external to a certain type is what makes you a better player. Healers who occasionally tank. DPS who ocassionally heal. Tanks who ocassionally DPS.

[@omgnowairly]

Why wouldn’t you have one of each class? Easy.

[@domoneeko6723]

your opinion is kind of not mine. what if you are not in a guild because you don't want to. how can you join a heroic or mythic pug as a feral? several times i signed up on Custom Group Finder as a 614 ilevel Feral. my DH, Shaman, and Hunter got invited faster where the feral got invited never so far. the answer is you can't ever pug a feral unless the host has sympathy or unaware of the meta. be real next time and look at all angles.

[@domoneeko6723]

META is artificial superiority. Blizzard is teaching players (or dictating them) which spec to like and play. WoW is no longer a skill based game. What it is now I do not know but the top ranks are not there because of skill. A low DPS Feral probably requires more skill than a high DPS Enhance Shaman. Yes, I have played both. Let the deniers begin, lol.

[@gelidgee]

Y’all better stop following the meta…

[@apointtomake1517]

there are soo many holes in your logic, i have neither the time or energy to list them all, but i will say that seasons make a prior season's gear irrelevant and it is not a big deal going with a different class.

[@Ryan-sn3uo]

what a pointless comment

[@ArmandMehicic]

He was talking about 1 season, even if he mentioned what you are saying, I don't think it was the point of the video.

[@_amanojaku]

I'd love to know what other holes are in his logic, but addressing what you pointed for now, going full mythic gear from a season to another makes a big difference and gives you a headstart into clearing higher keys. Also, it's ok to admit you're following the meta, no need to search for justifications.