Professor Alister McGrath - On The Trinity

[@alexandergrubbs639]

C.S. Lewis of our day. Marvelous.

[@upsbear]

Alexander Grubbs You got that right. Lewis was a big idiot too

[@jongpark5338]

Amazing, thank you very much.

[@eflint1]

I love it when tritheists posing as trinitarians accuse McGrath of being a modalist.

[@thebiblerefutesheretics2054]

eflint1 Who claims that about him?

[@claudiozanella256]

What I'm wondering about, honestly, is how in the third millennium we still are discussing about the Trinity, which sets a world record as regards nonsense : 1. the theory states that the almighty God is HERE NOW. But this is impossible. The future is SET IN STONE. We are FREE because we do NOT know what is written there. But God would know that future instead and that future MUST COME TRUE. This means God would NOT be OMNIPOTENT: He could not even change the weather of tomorrow! He would be OBLIGED to let the future EXACTLY UNFOLD like it is, nothing can be changed. God would NOT BE FREE too, obliged to TAKE EXACTLY the God's actions already set in stone, down to the tiny detail. 2. God having a God-Son in the LITERAL SENSE is ridiculous: there is NO REASON for that. Further, that Son would be of course a "demi-God" and the people would still keep praying to the only one real God, the ONLY REAL ORIGIN of everything: his Father 3. the Son has his origin in the Father, but the Father has NOT his origin in the Son. This means that the Father is the ORIGIN of EVERYTHING, including the Son, whilst - on the other hand - the Son IS NOT THE ORIGIN of all. Thus they cannot be co-equal as stated by the doctrine. 4. it is ridiculous and OFFENSIVE to state that God is made of "substance". How can they quibble about the layout of God? It's just FANTASY. 5. therefore is NONSENSE to state that Father and Son are made of a SAME substance 6. ...and even if they were made by a same substance, MINDS MATTER not substance! They still were TWO DISTINCT Persons as long as they have two DIFFERENT MINDS (this is disclosed by the Gospels) 7. ...and since the Father teaches the Son things, they don't even share the same information. This means they surely have DIFFERENT MINDS so that they cannot be a "same God" (when Father and Son EXIST AT THE SAME TIME, but they DO NOT). 8. it's absurd having TWO almighty persons in the universe: if One of them wants the moon white-painted, what will the other Person do in this regard, could He change that color? Logic allows at most ONLY ONE omnipotent person to exist, because omnipotence is an UNCONDITIONAL power 9. it's RIDICULOUS to state that the almighty God is NOT SUFFICIENTLY ALMIGHTY and He needs to be helped by a "God's Helper" 10. In the gospels Father and Son NORMALLY TALK as it happens with TWO common different persons "thank you for hearing me...". If the Father existed now in a NORMAL form, then we surely had TWO Gods, that is POLYTHEISM. But God is ONLY ONE ! The Trinity theory is also EXTENSIVELY NOT SCRIPTURAL : 1. it's lying to state that Jesus is almighty when Jesus states exactly the opposite “ I from myself am not able to do a thing” (John 5:30). 2. the "omnipotent Lord who gives life" is an ABSURD INVENTION: an omnipotent God totally UNKNOWN in the scriptures, no one ever heard a single word from him !! 3. it's lying to state that Jesus and the Father are co-equal when Jesus states THE OPPOSITE "My Father is greater than I", the trinity inventors think to be more informed than Jesus on this topic! 4. it's FALSE to state that the Father and the Holy Spirit are co-equal when ONLY the Father know the future "..but only the Father knows", this means the Holy Spirit does NOT know the future ! 5. throughout the whole gospels disclosure it is clear that ONLY ONE RELATIONSHIP FATHER-SON EXISTS. Jesus crystal clear states: "I am not alone because the Father is with me." Without the Father, Jesus would be ALONE, NOT WITH A THIRD PERSON! Thus Jesus clearly states that GOD IS MADE BY TWO PERSONS, in other words NO TRINITY EXISTS. 6. it's lying to state that THREE Persons are in heaven, when the gospels clearly state who is there:"ye shall see (1) the SON OF MAN sitting on the right hand OF (2) POWER and appearing in the clouds of heaven." Thus, they are TWO INSTEAD, but since the POWER is not God, ONLY ONE Person is in heaven: Jesus. THREE PERSONS ARE NOT IN HEAVEN, but the Trinity inventors don't care: they simply don't care, either of logic or scriptures. "The Son of man shall come in the glory of His Father, with His angels ". Only the Son and the angels are there ! The Trinity is a nonsensical invention, but Jesus is God and He is the only Savior. Only Jesus and the Father are here ("I am not alone because the Father is with me"). However the Father is here only in the form of a spirit. ("God is a spirit"). He is the Holy Spirit.

[@Abraham-uk4xy]

Part 6- only one person is in heaven Jesus. Really? What became of God the Father who created the world. Where did he disappear to?

[@claudiozanella256]

​@@Abraham-uk4xy God the Father didn't need to live a REAL TIME relationship with us. That would have been inappropriate. God is in our past, in a distant "God's temporal dimension". From that past temporal dimension He was ABLE to see us into his future and to interact with that future, with us. But this conversely means that we are NOW observed by Him from the past, in other words a "temporal bridge" exists between God and us. Since God actually is not here - He is only "virtually" here - you can say that God is like a spirit here ("God is a spirit" Jn. 4:24), He is the "Spirit of God". This is what happens, but only from our point of view. From God's point of view things are different: He was able to live all his relationships, to do ALL his almighty God's work even before the world started. Since all his work was done, He got rid of his then useless power to become like a normal man: the SON of God, with no power at all. "Son" means He DERIVES from God, He is not an actual son. All above of course means that nobody could actually see God, as stated by Jesus "nobody has seen God at any time" "The world has not known you". This means that the Son of God is ALONE in heaven, God is only in the form of a spirit there (and here).

[@claudiozanella256]

The Trinity is a painful story: Jesus clearly states at least fifty times -50- in all sauces, that God is only made by 1. the FATHER and 2. the SON, NEVER that God is TRIUNE. For example "those who will believe in me through their word so that they all may be one, as you, FATHER, are in ME, and I in YOU. THEY also may be ONE IN US...". You see: NO THIRD PERSON is there. Yet, the people of the council of Nicaea, and the council afterwards, don't give a damn about what Jesus repeatedly says. They fail to understand that the "Holy Spirit" is NOT a THIRD Person but the FATHER, again. Jesus has the "FATHER who is a spirit" and calls Him "Father". But when Jesus wants to specifically refer to that "SPIRIT who is the Father" (nothing actually changes) Jesus uses the name "Holy Spirit". I.e. "Father" (who is a spirit) and "Holy Spirit" are just two fully EQUIVALENT NAMES. The "Church Fathers" - who didn't get anything - came up with a "triune God". For that they even needed to INVENT a fantasy God (the "mute" Lord who gives life) absolutely unknown in the Bible... And then the theologians, who are then obliged for 2 millennia, they even today awkwardly try to justify that absurd theory using improbable arguments...

[@edmondbeatty9309]

Very helpful dissertation!

[@canderssonswedican7486]

So what is is hard to comprehend about the tri-une nature of GOD? Even in the simplest scriptures it is so evident, for instance, who raised Jesus from the dead?

[@upsbear]

Candersson Swedican Who can even prove that Jesus raised from the dead ?

[@albacan]

god save us from christianity

[@urasam2]

This was a terrible lecture. Completely lacking in substance, endlessly repeating “this is interesting, this is helpful, this makes sense”, while offering no evidence for any of it. He’s obsessed with CS Lewis, another waffly deluded wordsmith, and has a personal vendetta against Richard Dawkins, although he only mentioned him once here, and in an almost complimentary way.

[@thebiblerefutesheretics2054]

So in summary the Trinity is “irrational” and “difficult”. Thank you sir but I already knew that. I thank God I’m a Oneness Modalist, the only way Godhead Theology makes sense and remains faithful to the Bible.

[@shamounian]

so, in summary, you are a vile demonized heretic whose god has a mere human Jesus doing things that only God can do. You are also a vile blasphemer and wicked idolater since your god causes all creation to worship a man, thereby committing idolatry. Now instead of barking here set up a debate between us for your channel.

[@canderssonswedican7486]

First…………… Muhammad makes these statements Surah 18:27 (no man can change the words of GOD) And recite (and teach) what has been revealed to thee of the Book of thy Lord: none can change His Words, and none wilt thou find as a refuge other than Him. Surah 6:34, "Rejected were the messengers before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs, until Our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those messengers." Surah 6:115, "The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfillment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all." Surah 18:27, "And recite (and teach) what has been revealed to thee of the Book of thy Lord: none can change His Words, and none wilt thou find as a refuge other than Him." ...... So the Quran says that none can change the words of Allah. Second……………….. Muhammad then makes these statements Rafi Haritha and Sallam Mishkam and Malik al-Sayf and Rafi Huraymila came to him [Muhammad] and said: "Do you not allege that you follow the religion of Abraham and believe in the Torah which we have and testify that it is the truth from God?" He replied, "Certainly, Ibn Ishaq's "Sirat Rasulallah", biography of Muhammad, page 268. ……You Muslims say the Bible is corrupted. But there is nothing in the Quran that supports this. There is not one word in the Quran that teaches that the Scriptures of the Jews and Christians have been perverted by man. Instead, the opposite is true. The Quran supports the Bible. If such a corruption had actually taken place, wouldn't "Al llah" have revealed it in the Quran? .......Here Muhammad agrees with the whole bible Dawood - 3:3 He has revealed to you the Book with the Truth, confirming the scriptures which preceded it; for He has already revealed the Torah and the Gospel for the guidance of mankind, and the distinction of right and wrong. Ali - 3:3 It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step) in truth the Book confirming what went before it; and He sent down Law (Of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this as a guide to mankind and He sent down the Criterion (of judgment between right and wrong). Dawood - Quran 3:48 - 50 48. He [Allah] will instruct him [Jesus] in the Scriptures and in wisdom, in the Torah and in the Gospel 49. and send him forth as an apostle to the Israelites. He will say: "I bring you a sign from your Lord". 50. "I come to confirm the Torah which preceded me and to make lawful to you some of the things you are forbidden. I bring you a sign from your Lord: therefore fear God and obey me." Third…….So if your prophet states that Gods words cannot be corrupted and then he states that the bible is the word of GOD, then explain to me why we need Islam which agrees with nothing that has been previously given to us by GOD (according to your prophet)? Fourth, ......Since the Bible teaches that Jesus is God then why do Muslims disagree with their prophet? Hebrews 1:8 {the Father calls Jesus God} But unto the Son he {God } saith, Thy throne, O God {Theos}, is, forever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom. John 20:28, 29 {Thomas calls Jesus God} And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. { o Kurios mou kai o Theos mou } the definite article. …..Does Jesus correct Thomas? No, he calls him blessed. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. Romans 9:5 {The Holy Spirit thru Paul calls Jesus GOD} Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen…NIV I Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: GOD was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles believed on in the world, received up into glory. Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. Titus 2:13 Looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, Titus 3:4-7 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior Philippians 2:5-7 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of man: John 1:1, 2,3,14 {The Holy Spirit thru John calls Jesus God} In [the] beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and God was the Word . Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος, καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος. En arche en ho logos kai ho logos en pros ton Theon kai theos en ho Logos He was in [the] beginning with God. All things through him came into being, and without him came into being not even one [thing] which has come into being. And the Word flesh became, and tabernacled among us, part one...

[@canderssonswedican7486]

John 1:9-10 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. Acts 20:28 {The Holy Spirit thru Luke calls Jesus God} Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 2 Peter 1:1 {The Holy Spirit thru Peter calls Jesus God} Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours: 2 Peter 1:11 "for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.," 2 Peter 2:20 "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first," 2 Peter 3:18 "but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen," Jude 4,5 (The Holy Spirit thru Jude calls Jesus God) For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. Isaiah 7:14 {The Holy Spirit thru the prophets calls Jesus God} Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Matthew 1:23 (The Holy Spirit thru Matthew defines the name Immanuel, Jesus is GOD} Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. Revelation 1:8, 22:13, 16 (Jesus claims to be GOD) I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end the first and the last… I JESUS have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. Matthew 4:7 (after satan tempts Jesus, Jesus states) Jesus said to him again, 'It hath been written, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.' Exodus 3:13-14 (the Father states he is I AM THAT I AM) And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, what is his name? What shall I say unto them? And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. John 8:58 10:30-36 {John states Jesus said he is I AM} Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM. Fifth……………………. Why should Muslims accept Christianity?” …….because Muhammad told you to. He came to reveal what was already revealed to us in the bible. Sixth………………………Jesus said to obey him When Jesus came with Clear Signs, he said: "Now have I come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which ye dispute: therefore fear Allah and obey me. (43:63, Yusif Ali) kzbin.info/www/bejne/aIDShqmkmt54a7M In His service, So since I have established that: 1.) Muhammad said the Torah and the gospels are the word of God. 2.) The Words Of God cannot be corrupted by man. 3.) that he came to" He has revealed to you the Book with the Truth, confirming the scriptures which preceded it; for He has already revealed the Torah and the Gospel for the guidance of mankind, and the distinction of right and wrong. " Then you must agree with what the "WORD" of God teaches. Less you be a pagan.

[@dunk_law]

@@canderssonswedican7486 see Pauline NEW creation theology.

[@canderssonswedican7486]

@@dunk_law ? what are you talking about?

[@stevephillips8083]

All doctrines and dogmas are harmful to both society and the individual. All conscious being should be allowed free thought. You are free to not be shackled by Christian thoughts for example. You are also free to not think like a Muslim. It took billions of years for us to evolve, and we will continue to do so. Change is inevitable, and to say your doctrine and dogma will not change as we evolve, I would suggest is not very useful at all.

[@canderssonswedican7486]

"It took billions of years for us to evolve, and we will continue to do so" ...Billions huh? I see, so from this cosmetic spit we crawled out of ... From absolute "KAOS," to order and rules governing our universe. Naw, we were designed, code does not write itself.

[@canderssonswedican7486]

So I ask you, when the atoms in your brain just per chance happened to “form themselves” in just the correct arrangement physically and chemically, so as to give you as a by-product, the sensation you call thoughts and from these “thoughts” critical thinking which you can’t trust because how can you know what you are thinking is to be true? And if you cannot trust your own thinking or anyone else’s for that matter how can I trust any arguments you make leading towards God?.....C.S. Lewis We as a limited pile of cells trapped in a decaying carbon body cannot assert anything beyond what we can see, feel or touch. What arrogance by such limited carbon life forms, do you think a snail can process it surrounding as a bird can? Or the bird process it’s surrounding as a dog? How about a monkey can he out think the latter? Us human’s. Each one of these creatures cannot comprehend what the larger and higher capacity brain of a more developed creature can why is that? Can the smallest creature ever evolve enough to develop the intelligence of a creature higher up on the evolutionary scale? Will a snail ever reach you humans in intelligence, of course not? It will never be “biologically” possible. So why do you, an animal, one evolutionary step higher than a monkey, a primate, think you are biologically capable of understanding a higher power. We are not biologically capable of understanding a higher power. Does an ant know I exist? Can it ever achieve self-awareness larger than its brain can process? Is it aware of my presence? What happens when I start to push it with my finger it runs away why? Because then and only then does it know there is something there. I have to reveal myself to it for it to know I am here, yet it still cannot comprehend who or what I am. Likewise a higher intelligence would have to reveal itself to us. Beside we humans are just one short step above a primitive primate. We humans are just a little more evolved primate species, but we are still a primate…get over it. Just as an ant is limited by its evolutionary limits so are humans. So understanding that neither you or I will ever be able to comprehend who or what God is. Would it not then make sense not to tell others what God can or cannot do? Or even if he exsit? It is Gods prerogative to be whoever he wants to be or how he represents himself he does not need you or me to define him or his limits nor to tell him how he is to reveal himself to us nor who he chooses to reveal himself to. So don’t tell God what you think he is you have no clue who or what God is. Our understanding of him is limited to the boundaries of our dimensional and biological existence. It is quite obvious that God exists outside of our understanding... otherwise HE wouldn't be God. Neither you nor I will ever know him fully until we stand before him, until then I will, by faith made possible by his grace trust his word and its description of him over your opinion.