Project L Should've Been A Smash Game

[@IHeartPieGaming]

So a quick note: I'm seeing a lot of people saying that I hate fighting games, or I think that inputs are why Project L shouldn't be a fighting game, or even that I don't want Project L to exist. That's not true. I've dabbled in a lot of fighting games in the past, but for me personally, even with practice, could never get inputs down. I'm sure it could be easy for some others, and I'm sure if I dedicated more time to it, it would be okay. I also think that when you practiced it once, you should be good with all fighting games and it'll come second nature. I understand all this. Inputs are not my only point as to why Smash would work better in Riot's ecosystem. The point of the video isn't to trash on fighting games, or discuss the complexity of fighting games - it's to talk about Riot's position in the market and why I think a smash game would do better. As I mentioned in the video, I have no doubt that Riot would make a great fighting game and that Project L would be great. I hope this clears things up a little bit.

[@IHeartPieGaming]

Yup. I do. In fact, I mentioned it at 7:18 in the video. Inputs aren't the main or the only reason why I think Smash would do better for Riot. Besides that, comboing will likely still remain (unless auto combo is also introduced) and that has sequential, timed inputs associated with it too, which are usually still tricky to pull off for casual gamers and gamers new to the genre.

[@twgok3162]

Nice video, I do think your biased but it's an idea that I don't see discussed much. I hope to see what content you'll drop and what you'll learn about 2d fighters when project l drops

[@IHeartPieGaming]

@@twgok3162 Thank you. I appreciate that more than you know. I do for sure recognize that I'm biased and I'm working on fixing it. I'm planning on doing some content with fighting games as a complete newbie soon and making a video on the experience to find out whether it is actually hard to get into or not. I appreciate all the discussions that we're had here!

[@IHeartPieGaming]

I think you're talking one step further than what I'm talking about already. I'm talking from a standpoint of a complete casual - think your girlfriend or non-gamer friend. League blew up because it was able to bring in that audience. I've brought in plenty of friends that barely gamed before to play these games and they were hooked. The input of a Smash game is simpler from a basic standpoint. Left and right to move, A to punch, B to special move. If you want to go higher on a character, up B. We'd play some free for all 4-8 people games and they'd just mess around with the controls in a corner, completely unconcerned while the rest of us fight. Getting people into the genre is way easier because of the non-1v1 nature and the fact that all the controls are readily accessible. But the even more amazing part is that, as you say, high level smash is hard! But that's not what a majority of gamers are going for. They just want a way to play with friends and have a good time. I mentioned this in another comment but more than 50% of the games in league are normals and arams. People just want to hang out and play with friends.

[@IHeartPieGaming]

I didn't fail to consider it. I literally mentioned it in the video, which I also timestamped to you in an earlier comment. In fact, I answered what you said here in that very reply. I didn't say Project L is gonna fail. I genuinely think it's great for the traditional fighting scene. The point of the video isn't to say Project L sucks or that it won't do well - the point of the video is to say a Smash game would hit a bigger market and would be a bigger success.

[@hyperblaziken6572]

This video has great points however i like tradional fighters and i'm excited for this game so i choose to ignore all of them

[@ZenseiSmoke]

I would have lost interest if project L was a smash game tbh..

[@IHeartPieGaming]

Perfectly fair! I think it's not going to be everyone's cup of tea either if it's a smash game. But think about it this way, if someone isn't into fighting games and you ask him to play project L 1v1, they'd probably feel awkward to say yes because they'd get stomped by you. However, if a couple of your friends is chilling playing some project L smash and asks you to join, you'd probably say yes.

[@ZenseiSmoke]

@@IHeartPieGaming tag games tend to have the mechanic where multiple can play me and 5 other friends played dbz this way and I guess for new people to fighting games they simplified the inputs to forward and a button or down and a button etc But the brutal honesty is no matter what game you're going to play you gonna meet someone better than you which will then beat you it's what you do after you take that beating determines whether or not you've truly lost. There is something special about feeling yourself improve as you struggle that's what keeps us fighting.. But I understand it's not for everyone..

[@IHeartPieGaming]

Absolutely and I think it's great if riot introduced that to Project L too. Would help in bringing new folks in. Comparatively though, Smash is still a lower pressure because in a free for all, the sweaty members can ignore the non sweaty members until the end, letting them figure out the controls or duke it out or just poke from the side. Comparatively, a tag game would just have you wait for your chance to play and if you mess up, you mess up for your team. It's still a good option, don't get me wrong, but the goal of the video isn't to trash on traditional fighters, it's to compare traditional fighters to smash for a Riot-made game. I think Smash is better at bringing in fringe players (players who've never touched any fighting games or casual gamers or non-gamers) because of its simpler controls, free for all gameplay, bigger/more interactive stages and the fact that it'll be the first proper free to play, AAA Smash game on non-Nintendo consoles.

[@ZenseiSmoke]

@@IHeartPieGaming yeah I understand your point fighting games are a niche for a reason and it's a bold move Riot is taking let's hope it pays off.

[@IHeartPieGaming]

I hope so too! I wish no ill will towards project L at all. I'm looking forward to trying it out as well. This was more of a marketing case study video :).

[@DesuVentix]

Riot is getting bigger and bigger as years flows by cant imagine them failing in 10 years because of their motto of kepping the community alive and well

[@IHeartPieGaming]

For sure! I always trust Riot to make the best version of a game in the genre. They haven't failed me yet.

[@yasuke267]

On your point about Riot entering a small market, couldn't you make the same argument about traditional fighters? Sure, there are a lot of fighters out there, but none of them are that popular. Not a single one of the traditional fighters is even close to smash bros sales numbers. Then when it comes to concurrent players, none are even scratching any of the other top competitive genres. It's basically a saturated genre of incredibly niche games. It's hard to call any game "top dog" when all the "big dogs" are relatively small. Wouldn't this make it extremely easy for Riot to make themselves top dog if they enter the space and the game is decent?

[@IHeartPieGaming]

Interesting point! There's a couple reasons as why I think Riot using the Smash market would be better. 1) Mortal Kombat, Street Fighter, Tekken, and Dragonball FighterZ fill up most of the rest of the top 10 sales. Not a tiny market, but not as big as smash. The problem then becomes you have 4 separate game franchises to compete with - whenever each of them come out with a new game, player base will shift and possibly leave forever. Smash games pretty much only has Smash, and Nintendo is notoriously slow with new iterations. 2) These games are already multiplatform. You can play them on PC/PS5/Xbox etc. Compared to Smash, where Riot would be the first to take that genre in a AAA setting to these consoles, hitting up all those underserved consumers. 3) Smash games would also have a wider appeal. It's much easier to get a friend to play a couple games of smash than to get them to play a fighting game usually - Especially the casual gamer crowd. It's less stressful to play with a group than it is to do a 1v1. This casual crowd will then fund the game with skins and other cosmetic purchases. I have no doubt Riot would be top dog of fighting games when Project L comes out, but that could be a thing only until the next Mortal Kombat or Tekken comes out and talents bleed. A Smash game would be more evergreen because not only is Smash only on one console, it's also much less frequent for a new big title to show up in the genre.

[@greena5sas5in4]

@@IHeartPieGaming you also need to consider the WB smash and all the other smash clones that are coming out it's becoming a much bigger genre

[@killinswagz]

okay so like, i feel like this video is a huge misunderstanding of traditional fighters and the fgc and claims that riot should make a game made to your specific preference for really shaky reasons. this video made me cringe a lot but ill try to be as constructive as possible. first on the deal that riot only makes games successful in niche genres. while valorant isn't exactly the the same as other games in the genre at the end of the day valorant is still an fps which in todays day and age is an extremely popular genre with new titles launching every year by multiple publishers. the competition for fps games is in fact insane, even if tactical shooters are a smaller subgenre. the take that team games are inherently less stressful than 1v1 games has some merits but the points you bring up weren't exactly the best. i do agree that playing a game with your friends is more appealing, but the point that people use mental gymnastics to shrug off a loss falls apart when you realize that people do that in every competitive game ever. "this matchup sucks" "the match was laggy" "your character is broken" people make excuses in any game ever and that doesn't inherently alleviate the stress of competition in a way that is exclusive to team games. on that same coin, team games can also be stressful for some due to those same mental gymnastics as people always tell their teammates the loss was their fault. part of the reason i don't bother with stuff like league or dota is that i don't want to deal with hearing 8 people telling me to kill myself because i cost the team the game. onto fighting games, i feel like you focus too much on the execution aspect of fighters too much and ignore the many instances of fighters making themselves more accessible. first on execution , i cant deny that some fighters are pretty brutal when it comes to doing some things well, but this problem isn't exclusive to traditional fighters, platform fighters, or even competitive games in general. smash has its share of difficult things to do, rather it be character specific tech, di ranges, kill confirms, percent windows, or even basic things like movement. even in games like fps theres an inherent dexterity needed to do well like learning movement routes, and aiming. i highly recommend watching this video by fighting game commentator sajam on the subject kzbin.info/www/bejne/fYrYZJukbst-iqc the point that leagues fighting game will die off if another fighter comes out is really flawed. as a melee player you should know that a passionate community will extend a games longevity for years past its initial release, traditional fighters are no different. after numerous other titles in the street fighter series, people still play 3rd strike, after numerous other marvel games people still play marvel 2 and 3 long after infinite releases, and much like these games rivals 1 will continue to have players after rivals 2 releases. most of the points onwards are about franchise power, which fair enough but some of the underestimates are kind of unresearched. for example you mention brawlhala doesnt have the franchise power to make smash numbers. Brawlhala has peaked at 50 million players accross all platforms, thats more than any smash game has ever sold ever, and a huge contributor is due to the numerous crossovers with stuff like steven universe, ben 10, hellboy, and fucking john cena. i also want to address the take that a riot game would blow multiversus out of the water due to franchise power. holy shit this is such a dumb take. warner bros is one of the biggest multimedia companies in the history of forever. looney tunes alone already has bigger brand recognition than anything riot will ever have ever and even if it wasnt multiversus also has batman superman, game of thrones, steven universe, scooby doo, and adventure time rep. ALL of these were massive hits that changed the standards of animation and storytelling in their respective eras and reducing them to "just warner bros ips" in comparison to riot is really dismissive of the weight the ips have and is , frankly kind of idiotic or misinformed. the rest of this video talks about how riot can do better than smash, which fair enough i highly recommend doing more research when writing video essays like this. you did a decent job with the riot stuff but you didnt do very well when it came to other fighting games than smash. i think there is a conversation to be made about how we need more AAA platform fighters but i dont think this video was the way to go about it

[@killinswagz]

id also like to point out a lot of riots staff worked on icons combat arena and well that game wasnt great: kzbin.info/www/bejne/haK6nmypgsyeoJo

[@IHeartPieGaming]

Thank you for your reply. I'll try and address all the points one by one. FPS genre is huge and Valorant vs something like CoD is like a 2D fighter vs Smash. Valorant found the tactical shooter genre lacking, swooped in and took CSGO's crown. Think about it - CS was a king of the genre for god knows how many years and Riot took over because there was only one competition and the competition was weak. This is why I suggested Smash - it's a separate category within fighting games that has a big audience but weak competition. I understand the issue with toxicity and I think one key thing I didn't address in the video is that a Riot Smash can take the best of both worlds - It can have the friends that take you into the game, as well as team modes, AND it can have a solid 1v1 scene for competitive. I do think that one of the driving force of team games is still de-emphasis of the self, which makes it more comfortable to get into the genre. I would never imagine some of the casual valorant/league streamers getting into a 1v1 fighting game, but I could definitely see them playing Riot smash with friends. I do think Smash has it's fair share of difficulty, but I think one of the key differences is that it's back-loaded. Smash's controls are incredibly simple to begin with - a direction + a button will access all your moves. The map is also bigger and has platforms, which allows you to play around more from a macro-standpoint as well as giving you bigger breaks in the action. Compared to traditional fighters, I don't have to look at a menu to figure out which button presses to do on my character to access their specific special moves. I don't have to pull off a combo to feel like I'm doing something purposefully in Smash - a simple big hit knock away will already provide that feel. I've tried a lot of labbing in fighting games before, but could never pull off any good combos, especially in game. (I do have plans to do some fighting game streams in the future and dedicate some hours to figure out just how hard a fighting game is to a new player). Melee exists as a community specifically because they didn't have any options. Brawl removed a lot of competitive elements, so they had to stick with melee or it's nothing. Compared to that situation, the traditional fighting games have an abundance of games. If another franchise makes a good game, they will jump because it's fresh - and if it's good, they'll stay. And also, for a free-to-play riot game, it can't just last and have a small dedicated audience like 3rd or Marvel 2/3, it needs a large audience's continual support. For sure, I did do my research in terms of Brawlhalla. I know they have crossovers and I even know they have the 4th biggest fighting game tournament in the world. However, that's because it's once again, the only option for a free to play brawl game. It's an indie company that can achieve this much success without the use of brand power in it's original cast - imagine the brand power that Riot can bring with their champions as the main cast. And I also know that Multiversus's cast have a lot of star power. However, Riot's brand power within the gaming community is what I wanted to focus on. I genuinely think that the 180 million monthly active players of league as well as god knows how many ex-league players would be a bigger draw than your average batman or game of thrones fan that doesn't even play games. The "Just warner bros IPs" is about how it can't grow past warner bros IPs due to conflict, while nothing stops Riot Smash from partnering with other game companies to bring their characters over. Lastly, with your add on comment about Icons - I think ex-Riot employees is more of a buzzword. Riot as a company produces good games, while their individual employees might not be able to pull it off. I thank you for your long reply and I genuinely appreciate you sharing your thoughts. This is my first video essay and I do admit I have a lot to improve on. I'll try to work on my clarity, the way I present my message, and my bias in the future.

[@ultimatederp5069]

So I was gonna leave my own 5 paragraph essay about how you aren't fully informed or experienced but it seems other people have already done that. So here's my comment giving you props to responding to them. You've got a backbone and I respect that.

[@Kinslayu]

I feel like a majority of your points could also be applied to traditional fighters. Those being Riot is good at making niche genres popular, eports, online play, updates, first free to play AAA cross platform fighter, league IP. The other important topics are difficulty and 1v1 pressure. For difficulty, we don't know how hard the game will be yet. They've shown one button specials. Will there be auto-combos? If it's easy for a new player to do cool moves then there's no problem. 1v1 pressure is a real thing for sure. If project L is strictly 1v1 then yeah the growth will be negatively impacted. But Riot could also do a 2v2 mode. Or a 4 player synchronous round robin lobby. Or a 4v4 team battle where you and your friends fight another group of 4 at the same time. There's a TON of different ways to make traditional fighting games into social events, they just require the developer to implement them into the game. So I don't think you're wrong when comparing smash to a 1v1 fighter, but I think we need to see more of what Project L is before saying they should have made a smash game

[@IHeartPieGaming]

Good points! I definitely think that Riot will be doing things to simplify the experience for casuals. But, one very important point about the 1v1 that I don't think can be ignored is that even if Riot implements the 2v2/round robin, at it's core, it's 1v1 fighter. What makes games like League, Valorant and Smash super easy for casuals to get into is that they can feel like they are contributing even if they aren't good. For example, if you aren't good at league, you can still do some damage, maybe land a cc for a teammate to go in. In valorant, even if you absolutely suck, you can throw a flash at a teammate's command or maybe do a couple bullet's worth of damage, or even just serve as a way for your teammates to know where the enemy is. In Smash, if you are new in a lobby of friends, you'll likely find them duking out with each other and ignoring you, so you can poke from the side, learn the controls and have some fun. A 2d fighter, even with 2v2 swapping out mode, will toss that new person into the ring to fight someone else 1v1. At that point, they are on their own and have to learn everything while fighting someone in a small space - that is a pressure that is hard to ignore. I think Project L will do incredible things for the 2D fighting community and I have no doubts it would be a good game (Riot only seems to launch bangers!) - I just wanted to bring up how the Smash genre would have likely been more successful for Riot's community/ecosystem..

[@pheragama1570]

The only reason why people don't get motion inputs is because people explain it wrong and i agree that casual people would like a platform fighters but if it does not have any deep mechanics it wont have longevity and will be a party game

[@IHeartPieGaming]

I agree :). I think Melee is good evidence that platform fighters can have deep fighting mechanics while staying casual friendly. I would trust riot to be able to pull that off. As for motion input, Im going to be doing some streams where I try fighting games then coming back and making a video to see if fighting games are truly hard or not!

[@kaos6684]

@@IHeartPieGaming I believe it's been confirmed, but project L will not have motion inputs. The main developers have stated also that their goal is to create a game that will be exactly that: "deep fighting mechanics while staying casual friendly."

[@StellaEFZ]

Look, you come to this with many misconceptions, such as people from the FGC saying smash is not a fighting game, that simply is not true. And that the reason people don't get into FGs is motion inputs which again, is not true, anyone, on any controller you can imagine, can do any input they want to with enough practice, but nobody wants to put in said practice because they don't want to think, which is something smash makes possible, then again, games like Blade Strangers, Divekick, Footsies did that and... Nothing, because that's not problem. And what you said about "fighting casually" apples to both smash and traditional FGs, issue being that in traditional FGs someone knows the very least about what they're doing, they'll have an enormous advantage over someone who is just pressing buttons because, just like in a real fight, what matters is the brains. As for the mix between casual and competitive, say someone who never played LoL jumps right into the game, what will happen? They'll be completely lost and the experience will be horrible, due to the way people play LoL, No way in hell that's easy, how do you even explain the objective in LoL to someone who never played it? You *need* to have more players pulling you, so it'll always be a group experience, which is easier to create bonds and friendship, the format itself helps, but it's unsustainable with a small playerbase. When you start mentioning the "problems with traditional fighters", you're actually describing the genre. 2D FGs are wildly different from one another, in many different ways. You're basically saying that Runeterra is the same as Magic as Yu-Gi-Oh because you use cards and have to defeat your enemy, that's what defines the Genre. Now, on the topic of innovation, Capcom made Darkstalkers which brought ground dash which is now a staple in basically every new FG and also AirDash, which got it's own subgenre with big titles being Guilty Gear and BlazBlue. They are, but not for the reasons mentioned, they're just false. To get into FGs, all you need is someone to play with, that's it. Execution is the most minor thing ever and will come naturally with you playing the game, reaction time as well, those are all things you need to practice and that's one of the biggest hurdles, in this genre you only survive if you actually practice things, even though, a 623 is a 623 in every game you play, so is 41236, 214, 236, etc; You only have to learn it once, just like aiming and shooting in a FPS. And you wanna talk combos? Sure, press A > B > C in order, that's it. That's all you need, in guilty gear (Not strive) everyone can do something akin to 5P > 5K > cS > 2D, and that grants you knockdown which is what you usually want. "Oh but I wanna do cool combos and not have to learn them" sure, just use the easy input modes or the autocombos, for example, in UNI you just press A (X on the controller) and your character performs one. For Blazblue and Guilty Gear, we have Stylish mode, which performs auto combos in every button. Same thing on Melty Lumina. Glad you mentioned Rising Thunder, nobody wanted to play it, but why? It's simple, it has no depth, because, again, execution is not the poroblem. But, as you stated, you never gave them a try. 1v1 Games... Yeah, you can't blame it on your friend. You have to bear with the responsibility of your actions, and people don't wanna do that. That's the true hurdle most people don't play these kind of games. But that's another topic entirely. Wait, are we talking about 2D or 3D? Arena Fighters aren't fighting games by their very nature, as well, they're as much of a Fighting Game as the Yakuza series or GTA is. But I won't dwell on this topic because again, it's another topic entirely and it'd go off-topic. As for this next statement, depends? You're going to play Strive because you liked Xrd for the same reason you'll play a new Pokemon game, because you liked a previous iteration. Melee, +R, MBAACC, KoF98 and 2002 are crystal clear examples of that being not true, then again, people always test these new games. Often times it has to do with the system of these new games, for example, +R is wildly different from Xrd which is wildly different from Strive and neither has absolutely nothing to do with Missing Link. There are more less know examples as well, such as Matrimelee, P4U2, Arcana Heart (just now people are playing AH3X)... People just play what they have fun with. The genre has so much variety for every possible taste and that's part of the magic, it will only die when there's absolutely no one playing them. Sadly, this leaves to people saying things like "Discord Fighter", which, ironically, builds a very strong community around the game. Yeah, FGs figured all that out waaaay back then, even for smaller teams such as Tasofro (touhou fighters), Furanpan, Subtle-Style and back in the day, ArcSys (check out the GGX Sammy tournaments, and also check Tougeki out! You may also find it as Super Battle Opera, aka SBO). It's the reason this genre stands the test of time. by the way, let's not forget about Playstation Battle All-Stars :^) I'm sorry if was rude by any measure, but I had to make this clear; You can't make judgements on something that you never got experience what it feels like, because it's really way easier than it seems. You just have to give it an honest try.

[@IHeartPieGaming]

Thank you for this! I appreciate your well thought-out post and your insight from inside the community. I suppose I speak largely from an outside the community perspective - as someone who tried a lot to get into the genre and could never get inputs down, even when I try to practice in practice mode. I've tried Street fighter 4 a lot, some skullgirls, Marvel Vs Capcom, I beat the campaign to injustice and one of the Mortal Kombats, etc etc. I really gave the genre a fair shake. A part of what makes some of the other games easier to get into is due to them shying away from mechanical inputs and focusing more on macro-play Even if I don't play something like Riven in League, which has high mechanical complexity, I can still play something like lux, which has low mechanical complexity, and do well since I know my map-awareness and vision control. Mechanical inputs are de-emphasized, so even if the game mode itself is more complex, people get better by learning macro-knowledge instead. 1v1 games are just innately harder to get into and most of the multiplayer games that blew up within the last couple years have co-operative elements. It's just easier to invite friends to play a squad battle royale, or a moba, or a shooter. Serving the casual playerbase and bringing more of them in via friends is the best way to blow a game up. The point of my video was never to trash on fighting games. I like fighting games and as a genre, it has it's very important place. The point of my video was to introduce the idea that if Riot made a Smash game, it would've been much more popular. Smash makes you feel like you are doing thing intentionally even if you are just spamming kirby down B. Plus the fact that you can just be that kirby floating around while your 2 sweatier friends are duking it out can bring casuals into the genre much easier. I hope I cleared it up a little bit with this comment!

[@xavierarchie4272]

I only disagree on ur first point cause I've seen figures and generally alot of the cmmunity saying smash isnt a fighter

[@RichardHannay]

MvC style is the way to go!

[@joseruiz5161]

Bruh, but there aren't any games that are free with the level of production values and recognizable IP as Project L is showing to have.

[@soulwarsnerd]

they stll can make a platform fighter. I think going into a trandional fighter is cool, because Moba genre is really hard to get into but league simingly was able to make that genre extremly main stream. I think if they can play their cards right, they can make a great fighting game that is easy to pick up hard to master quality to it .. Platform fighter in nature to me is stilll very party/casual friendly and it would require much tinkering. with a tradional fighting game their is a lot of room to experiment with the easy to learn hard to master balance.

[@tav1104]

i like the idea but i think a trdition fighter is a step in the right direction for riot and the fgc

[@shmixedNshmooved]

Idk, something about platform fighters rub me the wrong way. Games like smash are fun don't get me wrong but I just feel like I'm limited in what I can do in platform fighters vs classic 2d style fighting games. Motion inputs allow the developers to give players more tools whilst making a fun learning curve and let the player get creative with how a character operates (at least imo I think motion inputs are fun) I get that motion inputs are a turn off to some people but motion inputs existing is what drew me into fighting games in the first place. They don't need to be in every game and clearly project L is trying to make up for the lack of tools, due to the simple controls scheme, by making the game an assist fighter. I'm really pleased with the direction they're taking this game and the only thing I can ask of them is to take there time and don't be afraid to take risks.

[@IHeartPieGaming]

I think for sure there's preference to be had in terms of what each individual person wants for sure. Both the fgc market and the platform fighters markets are ginormous after all and I'm sure both markets craves a riot game! I mean for the video to be a bit less about preference but more on which market works better for Riot in terms of making a successful game. Given riots worldbuilding, characters and casual playerbase, I just feel that the more casual leaning smash genre seem to fit better. I still have no doubts project L would be a fun 2d fighter for the fgc tho!

[@SunderStormK]

Riot actually made a internal only brawl mod at a hackathon. There's screenshots of Garen, Katarina and Alistar in the game on the internet. So they definitely considered the idea but dismissed it for who knows why.

[@IHeartPieGaming]

Interesting! I think perhaps the lack of internal talent at the time to pull it off would probably be the main thing. Project L came to be because Riot bought a company that already developed most of the game for them.

[@njabyss]

We don't know if they've scrapped the idea. If I had to guess they're working on it and waiting to see what other companies do and iterating in the game accordingly. Riot doesn't do half baked games in a market they don't know if it'll survive, that's why they're waiting and probably iterating on it.

[@HokuSD]

You meant well with this video but the bias is too hard to shake off. You made FGC people come off as mindless consumer zombies and smash is the scene with real love and passion. Not only that but you made fighting games come off as not enjoyable just because of your experiences. Project L is a game that happened based off opportunity. If you look at the dev team behind project L you will see many respected figures in the scene behind the game and it’s development. Many people that have Made games, Better net play experiences and Pros. It’s not so much Riot seeing what’s popular in the space, but seeing an opportunity within the space and develop it free from Japanese devs and Netherrealm practices. The FGC is a victim of terrible devs just as much as smash with a lot of room to grow.

[@IHeartPieGaming]

I respect that and I apologize if I have insulted the FGC. I understand that Project L came from passionate FGC folks (People who started EVO if I'm not mistaken) and I do think fighting games have room to grow. My main discussion was meant to be about Riot's side of the equation - why a Smash would have been more successful for Riot than a traditional fighting game. How the Platform Fighter market is completely under-represented outside of Smash itself, which is not done well from a competitive or dev-to-community standpoint. I don't think Traditional fighting games are bad from my experience. I think Riot would make a great version and it'll make a lot of fighting game fans happy. I would be happy to try it. My point was that a smash game is easier to invite friends to join and play due to it's "up to 8 player" nature. It's less competitive due to the lack of games in the genre. It's e-sports scene was being stifled by Nintendo themselves. It's limitation to be on one console. It's terrible netcode and online structure. All of these leaves a lot of unserved and unhappy consumers on the table for Riot to pick up and it's perfect for their ecosystem. That's what I was trying to get at with the video.

[@salutcava9841]

Hey really interested video ! I kinda agree with you, a smash game would do better profit and all I don't think I can't argue with that however I like smash but I get bored quickly and I'd prefer a fighting game instead, I'm like you I'm not terrible but not that good at fighting games but I still think riot will make me play the game longer than any other fighting games even though I'm an MK fan so I'm pretty happy they are going in that direction

[@IHeartPieGaming]

Perfectly fair! Video was made more for the marketing angle more than what would be a better game. Everyone enjoys different genres and I def think that a Riot Fighting game would do well, especially competitively :).

[@nothinisworthit]

Wow, just found this video and while I'm excited for project l, I cant help but agree with many of your points especially about how riot games succeeds when their products can be played with friends ie league and valorant and even to a certain degree tft and when its not team based, it fails ie legend of runeterra. I feel like riot is very good at taking a game from a genre and making it noob friendlier than its counterpart and making it more fun to play with friends and I feel like thats where lor dropped the ball so its not as successful as riots other titles. However project l is not out yet and they could add some fun team based battles into the game, I dont know how it would work but we'll see when the game fully releases.

[@IHeartPieGaming]

I think Riot will pull off a very fun traditional fighter for sure! And I think they can def implement some fun team modes in that. However, I can't help but feel sad we won't get some fun 8 or 10 people big riot smash brawls with friends, haha. Glad I found someone that agrees though!

[@DanielSilvaMarquesVilela]

Hi, Pie! Excellent video! While I don't agree that Project L should have been a Smash Game (that's just personal preference), I really enjoyed the research, editing and overall content of your video. Make more of this! Also, I miss your streams! Hope to see you soon! P.S.: this is skaltur, btw.

[@IHeartPieGaming]

All good :). We don't have to agree, I'm just glad to start a discussion! And thanks man! I'll consider a return to streaming when I have a focus!

[@rainman2527]

Motion inputs used to be hard until I learned them now they’re second nature just like sliding and shooting in a FPS game. I think, while true, the statement about people not liking fighting game because they cant blame anyone but themselves is sad. People have to take into account perseverance, if you are always looking for someone to blame how will you ever hold yourself accountable and improve. (Not speaking about you just the people with that mindset) Id say if you really want to learn the genre find a game that you enjoy for me recently its been BBCF after its Rollback and just find spme people around your skill level you will improve and learn trust me

[@IHeartPieGaming]

That's very fair 👍. I do think that asking the casual audience for perseverance is at times very difficult. A lot of people don't have time to go practice this. A majority of the audience wants to be able to jump in and just have a good time quickly with friends - that's why I think smash is better for it. The other two points about the pressure of 1v1 and the fact there are a lot of established franchises in Traditional fighters vs Platform fighters I think still stands too. Thank you for your thoughts!

[@twgok3162]

@@IHeartPieGaming kzbin.info/www/bejne/moHYqpSdppdqntU I don't think u need perseverance based on this or fine motor skill or much thought to preform motion inputs

[@IHeartPieGaming]

Lol, that's impressive. I mean, if that dog can pull off a 3 hit combo into a shoryuken into a hyper move combo, I'll agree that motion input isn't hard.

[@rainman2527]

@@twgok3162 i mean to be able to lose take responsibility and keep trying not to do motion inputs

[@twgok3162]

@@IHeartPieGaming well that's like saying aiming is impossible in cs cause its hard to headshot an entire team in a single fire fight, but that may be possible with games that have auto combos where u just hit one button for a combo into a special and then super like dbfz

[@researchbashio]

Ok so every thing you just said could be apply to competitive smash ultmate and league of legends itself. Complicated combos smash that do you like doing hitconfrims based on the a percentage amount. League def has complex combos does matter if your using 1 button special moves it still acquired significant amount of practice. The 1v1 aspect can also be apply to League just because your in a team doesnt mean you can feed and think it's not your fault. Hell both smash and league are a lot more deep then what you give them credit for despite being easy games. So i dont see anyone cant apply that same dedication to a fighting game.

[@IHeartPieGaming]

There's a lot of factors that makes fighting games less appealing to casuals: The 1v1 nature of it is one major factor. While you can't feed in league, it helps a LOT to have team mates. You can feed and still possibly win a game for your team by landing a good cc. You can provide vision for your team or land a good last hit to steal an objective. The team nature also means that if you are countered or playing against a character you don't know how to play against, you can always rely on a teammate to deal with them for you. But most importantly, you can be brought on by friends who can play alongside you. This cannot be understated in terms of what makes games popular - you want to play what your friends are playing and you want to play alongside them. Outside of that, the controls for fighting games have been obtuse for a long time. I understand how there are simple combos and inputs in some modern games, but it is still at it's core meant to be a more mechanical experience. If I absolutely suck at league mechanics, I can get by very well by studying and playing simpler characters that are more about map knowledge and prediction than clicking fast. Fighting games will always require you to practice mechanics to succeed. In terms of Smash, while it has complex mechanics later on, a majority of players don't need to know them to have fun. Just think about it - if you are at a party and someone pulls out a game, would that one normie friend who never plays video games prefer to play smash or injustice? Which one would they pick up faster? It's not really a contest. You can feel like you are doing a lot in smash just by pressing special moves and watching it fly and the fact that it is a large arena with 3+ people means that they have breathing room to learn and to toss skills from the side while feeling like they are doing something. That's the same feeling most would get from valorant or league - You can just coast and trust your team to stuff while every once in a while getting some damage in.

[@johnrey7365]

How's Yuumi gonna fight on fighting flatform?

[@IHeartPieGaming]

Interesting thought. Yuumi would probably have to play differently than its league counterpart and be more of a solo fighter. Could attach to enemies as command grab and do a bit of damage as a reference. Rest of her kit would still be similar (controllable projectile neutral b, launch off book up b, wave of energy down b) Alternatively, she could also be relegated to an item to pick up instead, but yuumi fans won't be happy, haha.

[@mariocabudol7968]

Project L is rumored to be a 2v2

[@Kinslayu]

This plus a ton of other unexplored game modes like team 4v4 or 4 player round robin are amazing ways that could remove the 1v1 pressure. There's a bunch of ways they can make project L a social game

[@nanopix5305]

Im a bit late to this video, but no, I dont think Project L should be a platform fighter. As you said, Riots strength is delivering a polished, casual friendly alternative of other games. At this point I dont this point I dont think we need a smash alternative, theres Brawlhalla and Multiversus that feel in that necessity quite well. However, Fighting Games do need an alternative, just making a f2p fighter would be good enough for the genre, but simplifying the controls is as big, not only that but offering a pretty big playerbase with great online play. Finally I will be able to play a fighter game with people of my skill level, no more buying a 60$ just to get completely decimated in 10 seconds and getting frustrated because the game doesnt register a quarter circle + punch as a quarter circle + punch.

[@IHeartPieGaming]

The issue I still see within brawlhalla and multiversus is that they seem to cater less towards the "for fun" smash crowd. No items, little interesting stages, more stringent lobbies. I understand the desire from the FGC for a f2p fighter - I absolutely think the community needs it. BUT the point of the video is how a smash game would have been more successful for Riot. You even mentioned how you play a fighting game and get decimated - a super casual gamer would not last through a lot of this. Majority of the people who hop onto league or valorant is because friends are playing and they want to join them - a 1v1 game is really hard to join, but a 8 player free for all smash would be easy. I'm not saying Project L would fail or that I don't want it to exist. I just wanted to point out how a smash game would fit Riot's MO better.

[@nanopix5305]

@@IHeartPieGaming I understand the point and honestly i wouldn't mind a platform fighter either (and they can still do it). However I think their take on a traditional fighter will be more casual friendly, the f2p model and the massive IP will bring a lot of players, new players, that will be able to fight each other. On paid fighters you get a bit of fun at launch with new players, then after a while only the small percentage of players stay, the hardcore ones, spending 60$ to try a game and get facerolled is extremely demotivating, however if all goes right, anyone will be able to pick Project L for free and find people of their skill level to play with and slowly improve.

[@IHeartPieGaming]

I was in a very similar situation with a different game recently called Eternal Return, a moba battle royale that was really mechanics driven. The game is fun, beautiful and plays smoothly, but because the game is so hard mechanically and the focus is solo matches, what happens is that casuals drop like flies. Everyone in the community (largely hardcore players) only says that the game's main problem is that the playerbase isn't big enough so people fight more experienced players. I argue tooth and nail that the game needs to be more easily accessible so casuals don't quit and they should focus on the squad mode, but I would get chewed out by the community for suggesting such a blasphemous thing. The game has lost a lot of players since then despite constant patches, updates and events. Numbers alone cannot solve a problem that is systemic. Systemic fixes is what increases the numbers. In the 1-2 decade, how many times has a solo/2v2 pvp game been successful? One can argue hearthstone maybe (but that's just in a large part due to the CCG market finally getting a good digital, free game). Outside of that, fortnite, league of legends, call of duty, apex legends, rainbow 6, valorant, dota 2, pubg, fall guys etc etc are all popular due to their team modes. People want to play with their friends online - that's the #1 factor on why a game goes viral nowadays. Many streamers also only play Valorant - a relatively harder, more competitive shooter, because their friends plays it and they join them on the same team. Once again though, I do not doubt Riot would make a good and successful game - perhaps even the most successful 2D fighter out there. I just think that if it was a platform fighter, the ceiling would've been much higher. More casuals, more players, more staying power, better tie in with Runeterra lore and more cultural impact.

[@Hiyooma]

what's funny though is smash meele is one of the hardest and most complex fighting games ever created.

[@Capt.Burakuman]

Riot Platform fighter got canceled. so you were ahead of the curve.

[@Tylerisnowhere]

I'm gonna be honest and I don't want to be mean or anything, but I don't see the point of this video. Riot already committed to making a 2d fighting game and they showed it off to the public, so they can't just go back and create a new platform fighter. This video is just you explaining why they should've made a different video game instead of the one their actually making, with only your opinions and some thin evidence to back them up. I don't think your wrong for wanting riot style smash game, I just don't see how this video will convince anyone at riot that they should've done a platform fighter instead.

[@IHeartPieGaming]

Perfectly fair comment! The point of the video is meant to be more of a marketing case study on Riot's playerbase and the current gaps in the game market. Definitely not here to convince Riot to change their project at all. Think of it as an exploration of the what-ifs of the world. By no means do I think Project L would fail, nor do I think Project L is a bad idea - I'm definitely interested to see what Riot can do for the 2D fighting game genre. I just genuinely think that a platform fighter can explore more of the Runeterra world, hit a bigger market and have longer-lasting appeal as compared to a traditional fighter.

[@maddox9511]

Smash clones will never be smash, that’s why they all die so fast. Project L doesn’t even have inputs. The fighting game market isn’t as big as other games but it’s an important one

[@CrazyPantsus]

i really think the problem here is the mind-set you are taking aproaching this topic, the video its awesome and well writen, but you are only talking and seeing the competitive aspect and the e-sporty/streaming potential of the game, like half the time idk if you where talking about a product you want to sell or a videogame you wanted to play, anyhow grat video, keep it going...

[@IHeartPieGaming]

Thanks for the feedback! For sure I aimed for this video to be more of a market analysis vid more than a video game I want to play. I wanted to draw attention to how a Smash game fits Riot audience better and how the current market would have been perfect for it. It might've gotten a little lost in the script, haha.

[@leaomarinho5023]

If Project L had come along in 2018-19 it would have been revolutionary for the FGC, but now that covid forced japanese devs to actually implement rollback in their new releases I think the impact will be greatly diminished. It will still make waves in the FGC, no doubt, mainly because it will be free and probably have full crossplay, but it's not going to be a huge market disruptor.

[@IHeartPieGaming]

I agree! And there are also other Free to Play titles looming on the horizon as well such as Dungeon Fighter Online Duel, which will be a direct competitor.

[@harryvpn1462]

It'll be a fighting game with rollback that is actually alive and that's enough

[@IHeartPieGaming]

Yup, I agree! I don't think Project L would do poorly and I think fighting game fans would love it! The point of the video was to analyze the what if situation of a Riot Smash game.

[@xxxxx409]

The idea of "ults" in a competitive smash bros environment is a terrible idea

[@kamakaarchangel9301]

F Etika

[@Hamdaddy]

"Smash game" you mean a "Platform fighter"?

[@IHeartPieGaming]

Yup. I mentioned platform fighters in the video. Smash game just has a better ring to it for the title =P.

[@rayguo7704]

Incredible takes tbh. Based and smash-pilled. Hopefully Project L still turns out great though

[@IHeartPieGaming]

I hope so too! I want there to be a good game for the FGC; I just want to bring up the idea that a smash game fits Riot better with this video :).

[@IHeartPieGaming]

Should Project L have been a Smash Game or do you think Riot made the right decision going for a Traditional Fighter?

[@shade692003]

Just like how Valorant is CS easier to get into instead of a cod clone, Project L is an easier to get into 2D fighter instead of a smash clone. Being ok with Valorant but not Project L is a bit hypocritical to me.

[@IHeartPieGaming]

I tried to tackle that with the 2nd point against traditional fighters - the 1v1 aspect. The reason I'm okay with it is because it's a team game and it can be carried by the fact that if your friends invite you to join, you are a part of the team. For a fighting game, if your friend invites you, you have to just fight them. If the skill level is different, then it makes for an awkward experience. If I get invited to play some valorant, even if I suck (which I do), I can just be a part of a team and enjoy the experience.

[@twgok3162]

@@IHeartPieGaming it's a 2 v 2 game u can make it like mk 9tag team mode

[@IHeartPieGaming]

If they do implement a 2v2 mode, I think it'd help quite a bit. However, I still would still argue that it's nowhere near smash level of casual fun. Smash allows you to utilize different parts of the map and can do free-for-all removing both the stress of 1v1s and the feeling of letting a teammate down. I would see many casual league or valorant streamers who squad up with each other play some smash free for all, but I can't see them playing much 2v2 traditional fighters.

[@twgok3162]

@@IHeartPieGaming you should know people that play valarant and lol don't fear letting a teammate down cause they believe their team is throwing the game as soon as they reach character select

[@adolphineatingchildren2641]

what do you mean by "no timeless fighting game", there are a lot of classic fighting games like 3rd strike, MvC2, CvS2,

[@IHeartPieGaming]

Timeless as in it's still one of the most premier version of the game being played by everyone. Looking at evo 2021 a surprising example is skullgirls, which resurged due to the new update (and was missing in the years before that). Every other game is a new version of it. You won't find classic games like 3rd strike or MvC2 on there, nor will you find a lot of competitive streamers playing it. By comparison, the moba genre has league and dota 2 and they both stayed top dogs for years now without a new version in sight. CS:GO stayed relevant for close to a decade up until Valorant came out (And arguably is still relevant). Smash Melee is still holding huge tournaments today (Ludwigs tournament as mentioned in the video, Smash summit, etc.). These are the games that I would call more "timeless" - games that last many years and still remain one of the most played game of the genre competitively. One can argue that Riot can provide that timeless fighting game, but the question remains if the FGC will stick with it or will they jump to the next Tekken/Street Fighter/Mortal Kombat. Comparatively, Smash has low competition and the Smash Melee fans have been disappointed all a lot of the new Smash iterations. That's a prime market for Riot to come in and make a "timeless" game for them.