Pronation Does NOT Create Slice | Tennis Serve Technique

[@IntuitiveTennis]

Related: Why Your Kick Turns into a Slice 👉 kzbin.info/www/bejne/honXaIGYrtKqiNk

[@jakehits]

How long will it take? “Years or maybe never.”Truer words have never been spoken!

[@VeganBeerMonster]

I've been teaching for nearly four decades and I am rarely impressed by KZbin instruction videos. This one was excellent. Probably the best I've seen. You just got yourself another subscriber.

[@czibailo]

Nick, you're the best! Today it has been 1-year since I took my first tennis lesson and started to learn how to play tennis at age 54. I really love how you get into the nitty-gritty of the subject, use a data-driven approach and explain all the nuances and possible ways to approach something, that is SO what my brain needs as I am learning. But then you pivot from the theoretical to the practical turn it into simple advice like "high-five the giant" so we as players can get OUT of our heads and let the shot happen naturally...almost intuitively, once might say! Great stuff man. :-)

[@jeffc4697]

Way to drill down into this topic of pronation and get the focus off modern technology that gets us into the previously unknown world and keep our focus on feel and results feedback. Thank you for your lifelong fight and work ethic with the “game” of tennis and for breaking it down technically, but mostly keeping it real, keeping it feel, and enhancing humanity through this sport and your own personal tennis experience. Jeff…lifelong player and instructor.

[@TJ_104]

Im a 3.5 player struggling with the slice motion while the flat and kick motion feel pretty easy to me. I conciously try to pronate even on the slice and thought im just too stupid to slice effectively. Thanks for logically explaining why its actually difficult.. i can fully relate to the mental problem because slicing with pronation feels like a knot in my head^^

[@willkittwk]

Love the video. I've practiced 10 s of thousands slice serves and tweaked it lots of ways. But I like the premise of results matter the most. Your slice looks great as they all hit in the box and carry with good spin and velocity to the side fence. I nevermind pronation as over emphasis is probably a coaching gimmick...IE taking someone's money for some concept they can't even visualize. Your demo of each I noticed the non pronation the ball curved just as much but had a higher bounce into the side fence and pronation had a lower bounce but same curve angle and perhaps a little more velocity. But all look very effective. One serve that gets almost every player is a hard flat serve to the deuce with the angle of a slice invariably the receiver is looking for a slice in that direction and when you come in hard and flat it's a surprise. Better for taller guys to use as you're going flat over high part of net. But try it in some of your matches you'll get aces, service winners, and returns past the baseline. It gives the opponent something else to think about

[@leebr2010]

Thank you for this video. You're the only coach who ever brought up this subject of continuing pronation, as far as I know. I've often wondered myself, why my slice serve does not have continuing pronation, and whether I'm doing it wrong or not. I am very surprised to hear that the majority of pro players do not have continuing pronation. That is shocking to me. Looking forward to seeing more of your research on this subject. Thank you again for the enlightening video on this subject.

[@the1tfactor]

Love this video. I hear so much static about WTA servers not continuing pronation as if that action was the be-all, end-all of serve effectiveness.

[@wc3415]

Best tennis coach on youtube. High five the giant!

[@doughaynes8771]

Nick, I love your no nonsense approach to teaching tennis. Let the haters do what they no best, be losers. The very concept of pronation on the service motion has to be taught to people who have no concept of where some of the power comes from, as this is only a part of everything the serve has to be. Once they hit a few and see the difference, then they get on board with you on the concept and practice of the forearm pronation on the serve. Like anything that is a new concept for these tennis students, it has to be seen to be believed, then experienced. They have to experience it for themselves, that you are not delusional; a daily occurance in my lessons.

[@Jon_Dang]

Nick, thank you for the detailed breakdown. This is great material to study

[@ericfreeman5795]

Excellent video. The term "pronate into contact" clears up so many doubts. Many think that pronation was the synonym of prolonged pronation, and if you didn't prolong it, it wasn't pronation. I think that your racquet head speed is a lot responsable for the prolonged pronation. Tha faster you accelerate the racquet, the more the tendency to prolong it. Also, in your serves, I'm observing pronation into contact, and wrist flexion after contact, as a release. In the 5th serve, there was prolonged pronation along with flexion post-contact. And prolonged pronation on the serve is like windshield wiper on the forehand, once the ball leaves the strings, it doesn't care how you finish the shot. It only cares about the racquet speed, angle, and trajectory into contact.

[@woojooya]

The term "pronate into contact" clears up so many doubts. -> This is it. It cleared my doubts which disturbed me over 10 years.

[@kumarsabaratnam4787]

Well analysed explanation. Thanks Nick.

[@k.h.3905]

Hi Nick, so here is my judgement. All 5 Slice Service NO more Pronation after Kontakt!! Why: If you had continued to pronate after contact point, the face of the tennis racket would point outward to the right and forearm and racket would be in at a 90 degree angle. With your slice surf technique the racket face points to the sky after the pull out swing. This is because you swing your forearm around the ball after impact point and at the end of the swing the palm of your hand points upwards. This is exactly how I changed my slice surfing technique and for the first time I was able to serve far out! 😊

[@pastisi]

Best explanation I have heard. This video explains allot. Thanks again Nick

[@IntuitiveTennis]

💯

[@jwong472]

thanks for making a difficult subject comprehensible, & good advice too 😃

[@markfresca9765]

Serve n. 2 seemed to me better than n. 1... Your explanation is fantastic, but I'm still hardly working on your video about the toss. Bel lavoro, bravo.

[@JacObi-Wan-KenObi]

Good point on the coolness in slow motion. Forcing pronation with exaggerated movements can cause injuries. Shoulders and elbow issues being the most common. A friend was trying to do just that for months and eventually it backfired.

[@krishnar3493]

Thanks, Coach. Got us hooked like always.

[@jacnella2419]

Just so informative 🙌 💚 Hvala ti 🙏

[@Profesah_411]

Hi Nick. You are the best. Can you answer a question for me? You mention having to slow down for continuing pronation. I have found the same thing when trying to hit a flat serve. If I just “let go” and swing as fast as possible, everything happens naturally but I can’t hit a flat serve because I am unable to pronate enough. The force of my swing is to fast to control any intentional action at the end. I can only hit a flat serve if I swing slightly more controlled which allows what I call the sampras finish with high elbow. Does this sound correct? Thanks

[@IntuitiveTennis]

Pronation into the contact is a fundamental element, continuing pronation is not. Don’t think about it, build fundamentals

[@Leight4Dinner]

Great video breaking down reality v. myth. In my case I found myself pronating more (unintentionally) after contact when intentionally attempting to put more spin on the ball. The thought on executing this being ==build up more swing speed at the moment of contact and do so with a more pronounced swing path to the right. This led to more spin but less power with the physical consequence of some occasional forearm and wrist pain from trying to “overcook” it. I’ve gotten away from that and focus thought more on internal arm/ shoulder rotation. This has eliminated the occasional arm/wrist pain but will take practice getting used to so I don’t end up with deceleration. Great video Nic…I refer back to your videos for reminders on the fundamentals when I get led astray.

[@joelintl2226]

right on Nick - Thanks for the insights. I believe I have seen even a high level coach teaching to pronate after contact for kick only and not pronate for slice. I'll have to film and see what it looks like, as I do pronate on kicks.

[@guillermotrujillo2451]

Thank you I had that thinking and having a lot of problems

[@gabrielalcocer8051]

It’s extremely difficult to get some people to understand physics, great video.

[@SeattleJCB]

Thanks Coach Nik! 👍

[@lyd9828]

Great explanation of pronation. I have never focused on pronation really. I think I covered it a long time ago in the early days in coaching lessons and perhaps once the coach saw that I was pronating he didn't focus on it again. I think this is akin to 'wrist lag' - focusing on it, is probably more often than not, not a useful exercise.

[@nghiahuynh6545]

1:06 Nick: We can't hit the ball with the edge of the racket like this Also Nick: immediately proceeds to hit the ball with the edge of the racket 🙏🙏🙏

[@MisterReZ]

It would have been awesome if he had served it inside the box

[@vlesmeries]

I wish I had that level of control lol. Time to practice the slice when the weather cooperates again.

[@daanman2]

Very nice 👍

[@davidwatkins8016]

To fully and freely pronate and have a dependably accurate slice requires exquisite timing. By slowing pronation as we approach contact we decrease the effects of timing errors.

[@Lugtor]

Great slow motion scene, thnx.😊

[@johnrob1137]

Love the video keep it up!

[@knotwilg3596]

Aaah ... the satisfaction when someone explains in these simple words what pronation is: it's the necessary act to go from leading on edge into contacting the ball with the strings. Now this moves the question to "why do we lead on edge to start with" which boils down to "why don't we do a waiter's serve?". And here I've often quarreled in the comments. My argument is that leading on edge has less air resistance so makes for more speed (even if marginally) and more stability (no wobbling). But I might be wrong here and "leading on edge" may be a part of the mechanics for other reasons. Clarification appreciated!

[@lyd9828]

You're theory seems to have a sound basis. I would add that I also think it is a biomechanical result of holding the racket in continental grip. If you try to serve with the face of the racket approaching the ball, removing all pronantion, it feels like you are fighting your the shoulder and forcing it too much (though that could be due to years of muscle memory). This may also apply if you try serving with a full western grip but I'm not going to try that craziness.

[@coilinnunan4058]

I'm no expert, but I've just done the following experiment which suggests that there is more air resistance when the racket is on edge. I held my racket by my side and moved it back and forth just by extending and flexing my elbow. When I do this I hear a much louder "swoosh" when I do it on edge than when I do it with an open racket face, despite doing it at the same speed. So it seems to me that, slightly counter-intutively, there is more air resistance when the racket moves on edge. Maybe this is partly because rackets are mostly not moving on edge and so have been optimised to minimise air resistance when this is the case. However the pronation movement, when done correctly, definitely adds a lot of racket-head speed, and therefore more power and/or spin. That's because at contact the racket is not aligned with the forearm. Instead there is an angle, of perhaps 40 degrees or so as the wrist should usually be in a neutral or fairly neutral position at that point. If the racket was aligned with the foream, then pronating would just result in the racket rotating around its own axis, and therefore very little racket head speed would be added. But when done correctly, because of the angle between the arm and the racket, pronation of the arm moves the racket head a lot in space in a very short period of time, creating racket-head speed. I have noticed that on my serve my racket and arm are sometimes too aligned, so I am working on trying to achieve a better position at contact so that I get more power and spin benefits from my pronation.

[@jacobstegman6602]

Leading with the edge forces pronation of the forearm, which accelerates the racket much faster than on a waiter's serve. The main benefit of leading with the edge on a flat serve is the ability to hit faster.

[@knotwilg3596]

If pronation in itself was such a big thing, we would lead an axe square on and then pronate into cleaving. Or nail with a hammer square on and pronate into contact. We don't do that: we lead on edge, both for an axe, a hammer and a racquet. With a racquet we pronate to make contact with the strings, not for the sake of an extra 'snap' or whatever analogy is derived from the baseball intuition prevalent in US. With an axe or a hammer we don't pronate because we make contact on edge too. Leading on edge is the real goal, because the momentum of a narrow object going through the air is so much greater than that of a blunt object. I wrongly labelled that "air resistance" - "momentum" is the proper term, while air resistance and turbulence may add to the effects of bad aerodynamics.

[@IntuitiveTennis]

Knotwilg, it happens naturally as a result of the path of the racquet drop (with proper acceleration & fundamentals). The only way it doesn’t happen is when movements of the wrist are taking place in isolation at a much slower pace.

[@sam8922]

I may be wrong but it seems to me continuing pronation gives you a faster swing and therefore more power on each serve. Therefore a serve with "continuing pronation" is always better

[@IamnotJohnFord]

I concentrated on continuing to pronate for a while. Total frustration and lack of accuracy. What I do now is relax a bit more and concentrate on all the other fundamentals of the serve while only working on pronating to contact in a throwing or high five motion, and what do ya know my serve is much better. And, I'm generating more power. Trying to hit the ball with a continuously rotating forearm generates tons of pace, but accuracy goes out of the window. Plus, I think that level of control actually slows your arm down. If you pronate to contact and keep your arm pretty relaxed your pronation should continue on it's own. I think that's what he saying with higher level players sometimes.

[@rucas10]

Nic regarding what I said about pronation and that after hitting the ball, pronating or not pronating, it has no impact on the ball because the contact has already happened, my question is: so what is the advantage of pronating? Thanks Nic

[@rexxengineering8333]

The continuing pronation is not to add any particular spin. It’s to sustain racket speed through contact. If there is no continuing pronation, it’s more likely the racket will slow down sooner.

[@DonYang73]

When i hit my slice serve i tend not to pronate and finish the swing from right to left. But when i hit a flat serve i pronate with the swing going much less from right to left. Just intuitive 😊

[@mq5694]

Hi Nick, always appreciate your content, thanks!!! In your Kick turns to slice video you demonstrated a serve with body rotating into the ball at around 4:26, did you feel like this had the example of stopping pronation or continuing? Want to make sure I'm see it right.

[@petrtamler4484]

Hallo and thanks for interesting topic, I believe that more pronation may mean more power but can be on expense of slice, some people go for supination like Jeff Salzenstein which puzzles me, as I think that such a serve is slicy but not enough speed

[@deeps10]

read my mind, I was thinking today, is there a video from Nik about continued pronation after the slice serve, as its not natural to fully pronate when you are trying to "scoop" the racquet after the slice serve

[@Cepreus]

Thank you for your extended pronation research! Very useful information 4 me, as I struggle with my slice-serve. "Giant high-five" is nice mental setup. May be you have something alike 4 slice-serve motion?

[@junkmail75034]

7:22 that looks like Becker and Sampras. Is it just natural for them to pronate like that?

[@brodaism]

If you contact the ball half way through pronation then slice the ball. Test this, try to serve and hit the at supernated position i.e with the side frame. You end up slicing whenever you make contact with strings.

[@sidchugh8371]

Nick, I hear you to not deliberately practice continued pronation on the slice serve as it impacts swing speed for most amatuers. But should we build the muscle memory for continued pronation by practicing this using shadow serves and then gradually introducing the ball? If we have the muscle memory built to biomechanically serve and pronate correctly then we are less likely to slow down our swing when serving and continuing to pronate?

[@IntuitiveTennis]

That’s fake pronation kzbin.info/www/bejne/g6qmm5mlgMmXl6M

[@sidchugh8371]

Got it! Very helpful, thanks!

[@leolionroarrrrrrr5509]

Seems the one with pronation was faster and rocketed through the court. The non pronation ones seemed to have more spin, and slight kick, maybe better for second serve.

[@yakzivz1104]

the serve is the hardest thing to learn in tennis. There are so many moving elements to it.

[@lordbyron3603]

Good explanation on pronation. Personally, I don’t think about it. It happens naturally for me. My wrist simply turns when I want to slice down-the-T or go wide.

[@nini_toys]

the ball normally bounce higher without continous pronation , right ?

[@peterbedford2610]

Yes

[@cesarfernandezlopez2209]

First time i see you miss a serve and hit the net Nick ☺️ , I can not say the same about myself,😂😂😂 but I'm not giving up , believe me 💪🏻🎾 ,nice to see you again 👍🏻❤️

[@april1865]

Cant* you mean lol

[@cesarfernandezlopez2209]

@@april1865 sorry I miss that too 🤣🤣🤣

[@cesarfernandezlopez2209]

@@april1865I LL fix that in a second , that's easier that the serve believe me 🤣🤣🤣

[@april1865]

@@cesarfernandezlopez2209 so English isn’t your first language…

[@cesarfernandezlopez2209]

@@april1865 correct, I'm Spanish ,as you can tell by my name 😂

[@ducockk]

From my own experience, pronation adds racquet head speed. You need to have the right swing path in mind to get the pronation. The downside is it makes it harder to control the direction, and the right swing path is not intuitive.

[@goggleboy2464]

How much to come do a hitting session with u Nick? I think im only 7 hrs from u

[@goggleboy2464]

Real issue is people are calling flat serves that barely slicing a slice serve. There are a few different variations of all serves. If u are a good server anyway. I have 3 different flat, 3 different slice and 3 different variations of topspin

[@Luciano-zy1sy]

I don't wann to judge Nick's serve. I certainly would be glad, if my serve was as good. I think, the main reason, why his serve normally does not have continous pronation is that his racket head is pretty much upright at the point of contact and not much tiltet. If there was a larger angle between the arm an the racket, the continous pronation would happen more naturally, also on the slice serve.

[@IntuitiveTennis]

Most high level players do not always continue to pronate. Racquet angle has absolutely nothing to do with it. In fact racquet angle at contact is the fundamental differentiator btw the three serves.

[@lordbyron3603]

Pronation creates topspin! That’s how I see it . 😊 and that’s how I create a kick serve.

[@Javi_C]

👍

[@omarsultanov362]

I'm afraid the question is being put wrongly. The pronation is the must for the slice serve. It is indispensable for the speed of the racket hence the power of the serve. For sure one can slice serve as well as topspin serve without pronation. The effect I'm afraid will be less power and tons of injury risks.

[@hansolsson3409]

Serve # 1 had the highest bounce i believe!

[@Gyswandir]

While anything that happens after contact is irrelevant, what happens after contact is indicative of what happened during contact. To say that continuing pronation after the serve has no effect is the same as saying follow through has no effect on the ground stroke. While technically true, it doesn’t address the fact that different follow throughs are associated different types of strokes (flat, topspin, high topspin, slice…). What I suspect, but still unsure about, is that slice serves with continuing pronation are associated with a fast/hard slice serve (ex: kzbin.info/www/bejne/qXfbmWCpl8-ekNE), while no continuing pronation gives more spin on the ball at the expense of top speed

[@imateapot51]

If you stop pronating as soon as you hit the ball you slowed down the pronation to hit the ball. It may be natural if you played tennis for 30 years. Try injuring your dominant arm and then try to serve with your non dominant arm and you will see pronation really is not that natural and automatic. Then you do exercises to build up the muscles that pronate and soon it is closer to your dominant arm serve, but not that close. I believe you do indeed have to focus on pronation to make it natural and automatic. There are reasons why pros hit the ball 130 miles per hour. They were not born on a different planet. It is technique, and specific strength training. Anyone who disagrees go out and serve with your non dominant arm and let me know how it went. Try this exercise I certainly did not invent. Stand with your arm straight in front of you holding a racquet straight up and on edge. Without moving your arm lay the racquet face to your right and parallel to the ground with your palm facing up. This is supination. From this point quickly lay the racquet to your left and that is pronation. Try hitting a ball doing this and see how far it goes. My dominant arm sends the ball across 4 tennis courts. My non dominant across one tennis court. An example of slowing down is the back hand slice. I was taught to swing down and forward and then follow through up high. I was slowing down the down swing to be able to follow through high. I noticed Federer does it a lot different and a lot better.

[@thangmeu]

The racquet head speed will be slower if it does not continue to pronate.

[@PrinceLawrence-w9y]

Nick you should f🎉orm a Tennis Academy . Thx Prince

[@ATIL1304]

1:07 you can :)

[@sam8922]

I disagree about not focusing on pronation. I think you should train yourself into finishing the pronation movement otherwise you'll never get it

[@shabzone]

Yea seriously from my experience lower level players' slice serve is just brushing the right side of the ball. When they want to hit faster, they brush it faster with no pronation. It's not until they realize you should still pronate with the slice that they start to add pace to the slice. If they followed the title of this video they will continue to hit slice serves at 30 mph

[@IamnotJohnFord]

I think he says to concentrate on pronation up to contact with a relaxed arm. The pronation will probably continue after contact if you allow your arm to relax. It's like when you throw a ball. You don't think about pronating. You just do it and your forearm continues to pronate after the throw. I have found this out with my service motion. I try to keep everything loose and high five the ball. If I'm relaxed my shoulder, arm and forearm keep moving and rotating. That's why a really good server looks like they are putting in very little effort.

[@jh276]

they look like FLAT SERVE to the side to me

[@Ricksonkimura]

Agassi was 1 of those players who barely pronated after contract

[@golllaur]

Those pickleball sounds tho :)))

[@sergioalonso3118]

Good info, as always, Nick. After watching this video I checked my second serve practice (kzbin.info/www/bejne/a4OsaGSNoLqhZqs) and to my surprise, I continue pronation in most of my serves. I was completely unaware of that. My serve is one of my weaknesses, still working on a consistent motion and testing different stances.

[@kevo99able]

That annoying pickle ball sound in the background lol. Otherwise awesome content as always!

[@CasualTennis]

No time for bullsh*t on intuitive tennis 😜

[@FairwayJack]

like

[@drbonesshow1]

Your extensive research examines only the status quo. No new knowledge no imagination. The fact is pronation is not necessary for a powerful serve. However, if pronation is your goal, then supinate the wrist before you pronate. You will achieve what I call Power-Pronation. There are 6-actions to the wrist, which allow for various tennis serve mechanisms other than Power-Pronation. The 6-actions come in 3 pairs of opposites: (1) supination-pronation (2) radial-to-ulnar deviation and the third, which I use for the most powerful way to serve (3) dorsi-flexion to palmar-flexion. I call this the Inverted Golf Swing. That's right, I've turned the most powerful swing in sports - the golf swing - into a powerful tennis serve. I'm a physics professor involved with the Physics of Sports (aka The Nutty Professor of Sports).

[@kamrannikoo7764]

Please do not " compliment yourself". don't make a fist!. You are not amateur.

[@vladimirvidov6202]

👍🕺💃🎾🇷🇺