Prop vs. Jet; The Venezuelan Example

[@tpowell2115]

I flew the OV-10 from 1978-83. On one occasion our squadron weapons officer got permission to arrange a test encounter with an F-5 flown by the Agressor Squadron serving our theater. The intent was to determine what, if any methods could be employed by the OV-10 to counter an attacking fighter jet. When it was over he announced that there was no effective defense. In the words of the Aggressor pilot, "When you manuever you're going so slow you don't actually move across the field of view enough to get out of my pipper (gunsight). It's like straffing (shooting a stationary target on the ground) in a crosswind."

[@stitchjones7134]

I reckon Polikarpov-2 pilots might argue that one. Manoeuvre kill on a starfighter in Korea.

[@tpowell2115]

@@stitchjones7134 From another internet source "The Po-2 is also the only biplane credited with a documented jet-kill, as one Lockheed F-94 Starfire was lost while slowing down to 161 km/h (100 mph) - below its stall speed - during an intercept in order to engage the low flying Po-2". Not sure if it counts as a kill, cause jet was not "shot down", but rather "lost". So it was a Starfire (F-94) and not a Starfighter (F-104), and it crashed while trying to slow enough to maneuver behind the target. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut now and then, but that's no reason to think he'll survive the winter.

[@allahsnackbar9915]

@@tpowell2115 an actual starfighter would probably stall way before that anyways

[@huntforandrew]

@@stitchjones7134 Wtf are you talking about? First of all it was an F-94 Starfire and the PO-2 didn't maneuver kill anything. The Starfire slowed down too much trying to get it's gun on target that it stalled and crashed.

[@stitchjones7134]

@@huntforandrewSo the Po-2 aircrew pissed off a pilot that much he stalled out trying to kill them. What is that, if not a manoeuvre kill? And christ, I read that article years ago, starfire/fighter....whatever, I really don't care overmuch.

[@Sonofdonald2024]

If Iron Eagle 3 taught us anything its that a spitfire pilot can take out a jet by firing a grenade launcher out of the cockpit :)

[@Sonofdonald2024]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/eILIqH6Bd6uSoqM

[@wdcjunk]

@@Sonofdonald2024 I knew there was a reason I never watched Iron Eagle 3...

[@athelwulfgalland]

Hahaha! I never thought I'd see someone reference that cheesy old flick! XD

[@berthamoen4488]

Iron Eagle 1 was already very hard to watch until the end and usually sequals are worse then the original, so I never took the risk to watch Iron Eagle 3. Seems to be that was a good decision!

[@athelwulfgalland]

@@berthamoen4488 Yes, the Iron Eagle franchise stunk of cheese from it's very first installment. It progressively got worse though. By the third installment I couldn't see it as anything but a comedy.

[@exactinmidget92]

this is cool as hell. never seen a modern aircraft get a gun kill.

[@mr_derpo9729]

Yeah I wish there was some hud footage of the Israeli f-15s getting gun kills

[@lynx8437]

check out air to air footage from the falklands war, best modern air dog fighting content available

[@Darckstarchild]

Malvinas war

[@Juanpan3452]

@@Darckstarchild Falklands*

[@t3h51d3w1nd3r]

@@D0ntK1llme no.....its a flying tank, jk , never pick a fight with an A10, dogfight or AA they are brutal machines, I wonder will it be the next b52, its already had its retirement plans cancelled and I dont know how theyll improve it or toughen it up, the price to make something better would probably be better spent improving its capabilities

[@skylongskylong1982]

When was a kid in Gibraltar in the sixties the Spanish had a habit of doing breaching Gibraltar airspace with their Me109, and H111 aircraft. The RAF sent up Hawker Hunters, but had to keep the under carriage down , and air brakes open.

[@lablackzed]

😂😂😂😂😂remember Smokey Joe.?

[@phil3114]

there were no Me109s in the Spanish air force. You probably mean the Buchon, an odd contraption between a 109 airframe and a RR engine.

[@Spl1ntMan]

no.... this feels not true, suggesting you HAVE to fly with gear and brakes out implies you cant lower the engine power enough to fly slow unless these hawker hunters have a weird attribute where having the gear extended and the airbrakes open somehow reduce the stall speed?

[@WardenWolf]

@@Spl1ntMan Early jet engines were very finicky. It's entirely possible that reducing thrust that much could risk an engine stall.

[@couchfighter]

@@phil3114 yes there were. The Spanish civil war took place right before WW2. google it sir

[@VR4VROOMVROOM]

Being a Venezuelan I remember my parents telling me about this and I must correct one of your statements, reason why the f16 used its cannon instead of its missiles is because at the time it had to take off it wasn’t armed with missiles, see the pilot had to take off in a hurry and there was no time to fully arm the aircraft , lovely that you cover this subject though, thank you 😊

[@voidkuma]

May we pray for our brothers in venuzuela 🙏🏼

[@SeannoG1]

Forget modern heat seeking missiles. There's test footage of first gen Sidewinders being tested on Hellcat drones.

[@Otokichi786]

"Hellcat Drone" reminds me of The Battle of Palmdale, where TWO jet interceptors firing "dumb" missiles hit everything but the wayward, out of control target.

[@jacobmccandles1767]

That's because "heat seekers" aren't heat seekers. They are infrared guided, but heat sources can blind them. They follow the measured distance and direction of the target, as measured by an IR beam from the head, reflected onto the colimator by a devolving, angled mirror. It sounds complicated, but it's actually STEN gun simple. For this reason, they do not tail chase as in the movies, but rather they fly straight to the target, even on a deflection shot.

[@lsq7833]

@@jacobmccandles1767 This is the most self assured pile of bollocks I've read all week. -Infrared is literally the the wavelentgh of heat. So yeah, heat-seeker is not a misnomer. -IR missiles are by nature passive, so no, there is no "IR beam from the head" going on. -Seekers are usually a rotating head cooled by an external source (coolant gas, some use peltier effect). There is no IR beam... " For this reason(WHY?), they do not tail chase as in the movies, but rather they fly straight to the target" This has absolutely nothing to do with the type of sensor and everything to do with the guidance system. Every single thing you said was wrong, that's pretty amazing. Perhaps you are confusing IR missiles with laser guided, but even then... Laser guided missiles are not self illuminating... Otherwise they wouldn't need laser guidance if they can keep a lock by themselves.

[@ChucksSEADnDEAD]

@@jacobmccandles1767 This is not true. In fact early gens of heat seeking missiles did not measure distance at all, and as tech progressed missiles still had no direct measurement for distance and instead relied on the rate of closure to the target (heat signal increase) to help the algorithm find the time-to-impact. The first gens of heat seekers did indeed tail-chase which made them inefficient at using their energy. Modern heat seeking missiles have a high off boresight and thus they're able to actually fly _ahead_ of the target to optimize closure rate.

[@SOUNDWAVEPR]

@@jacobmccandles1767 man you are such a 🧢 person bro you made my day by saying the most stupid thing I ever heard while trying to act like a smartas*

[@gglen2141]

Listening to the crowd cheer during that dog fight hammers home how weird and spontaneous revolutions are. I would not be surprised to hear them shouting "Ole !!" like at a bullfight.

[@NFDave1992]

As a Venezuelan, I would be surprised since "Ole!" is not an expression used here outside the very sporadic bullfights in certain cities.

[@superlumbagoman9370]

@@NFDave1992 jajajajajajaja, muy cierto. Lo mismo pasa en toda latinoamérica.

[@faleilham8334]

It more like entertaining than terroring. Trust me when we're on same situation we were gonna enjoying it

[@capscaps04]

I don't think it was a cheer but more of a spanish "Wow!" Yell. Since it is not something you can see everyday.

[@thealliedpowers]

holy shit never have i EVER seen footage of a modern air gun kill, in such outstanding quality nonetheless, and i have seen A LOT of combat footage from multiple wars this channel is a goddamn treasure

[@Captaincinquo]

When I saw that, my jaw hit the floor. Likewise, I've never seen anything like that before.

[@billhanna2148]

No truer words 👍👏👏 keep it up 💪👍

[@christianmaas8934]

I was half mindedly watching the video with the audio off and speaking over my shoulder to my wife and I see the Bronco going down in flames and I audibly gasped

[@leefithian3704]

Yes , agreed , good footage

[@romigithepope]

Me too. I've never seen anything like that. I can't believe I've not seen this before.

[@radicalxg8282]

Venezuelan here damn too bad that i lost the audio comms from the bronco pilot it was leaked years ago, he was loosing his shit in comms as soon he saw the F-16 " I have a f-16 on my six"

[@shatteredskull7221]

Qué dijo el tipo?

[@DonVigaDeFierro]

Carajo. ¿No recuerdas donde encontraste esos audios la primera vez?

[@bicok0073]

Who wouldn't

[@1983jarc]

Good video, but I got a couple of corrections to make, I'm Venezuelan and I live in Barquisimeto (were the air combat took place) 1. Chávez wanted himself as leader of the country, he did NOT want Caldera and the coup had nothing to do with him. 2. The f16 took of without air to air misiles, it just had gun ammo. The airport had been under attach for a while, and the plane took off out of a cratered runway. The bronco tried to stay out of the way of the f16 by flying over the residencial areas making sure if he was shot down the plane would kill as many civilians as posible. The bronco was dead as soon as the F16 took yo the skies, the only reason the air battle lasted was by using residential building as a shield.

[@skeletonwguitar4383]

For shame... maybe it was for survival since he knew he'll lose anyway, but using civilian area as his own personal shield is still a no-no

[@jefflei215]

that is the scummiest thing to do, you're effectively holding a building or two of people hostage.

[@bastogne315]

Did he ejeculate?

[@Rampantdiamond]

@@bastogne315 you mean eject? 😂😂

[@navb0tactual]

@@Rampantdiamond XDDD

[@lairdcummings9092]

All is necessary is to open the range, turn, and re-engage. Lather, rinse, repeat every time the prop aircraft evades. The jet pilot only needs to get it right once; the prop pilot has to get it right *every* time; so long as the jet has fuel and ammo, the odds are infinitely on the jet's side.

[@ZunaZurugi]

Basicly the same you would do with an Stronger piston engine plane which has worse turn performance. A Vertical turn beats them all if you got enough power.

[@mortified776]

Wow! I'd read about this engagement but had no idea there was footage of it. They really are low and close. You hear the buzz of the Vulcan pretty much the same second it started firing.

[@gilbertogbarreraa1052]

Hello there! I am from Venezuela, from a city called Barquisimeto, in the NW of the country. That's where this engagement took place. I was right there when it happened, near the local Air Base "Vicente Landaeta Gil". The OV-10s were stationed there (not anymore, as they have been phased out since). The F-16 and the OV-10 "put on quite a show" for a couple of minutes, but in the end a burst of 20 mm shells (you can hear the buzzing sound) did the little plane in. Also, there's footage somewhere of an 0V-10 attacking Miraflores, the presidential house in Caracas, with rockets.

[@mortified776]

@@gilbertogbarreraa1052 It must have been an extremely anxious time for you to say the least. I cannot imagine what it would be like to see your own country's servicemen firing upon one another in the streets and the skies above and I pray I never find out. I would assume you all understood generally what was going on and who was fighting who, given the events of that February.

[@gilbertogbarreraa1052]

@@mortified776 It was a trying time indeed. The fact that Venezuelan servicemen were killing each other over politics, something that hadn't happened in our country in about 40 years, was a total surprise for most of my countrymen. Even though many people, yours truly included, were demanding a change of tack in the way Venezuela was being governed. The one thing I'm going to say about that is be careful with what you ask for... On a personal note, my family and I were really worried about my sister. She was a NONCOM officer in the Army back then. (She retired last year as a coronel) For a couple of days we didn't know where she was, and feared for her life. As far as we know she never participated in any of the coups, but she's always been pro-Chavez.

[@mortified776]

@@gilbertogbarreraa1052 Thank you sir for your reply. I am glad your sister has come through all these years of turmoil alright. Even with things being as bleak as they are, I hope we will be able to say the same for Venezuela as a whole at some point. Knowing what little I do about Venezuela, I know you were absolutely right to be asking for a change of direction at that point. It is not any shame on you or any one else who demands better from those in power that the wrong kind of person took advantage of the situation. Sometimes we wish for a Clement Atlee but an Hugo Chavez turns up first.

[@mycroft1905]

Wow! That's remarkable footage of the dogfight. Spot on vid as usual Ed; thank you.

[@KevTheImpaler]

I read a book called Phoenix Squadron by Rowland White, which was about the Ark Royal aircraft carrier being sent to stop Honduras invading Belize. The Royal Navy was worried their phantoms would not be able to shoot down Honduras's P51 Mustangs. I think they planned on using some rocket launcher thing.

[@EdNashsMilitaryMatters]

Damn good book.

[@casinodelonge]

was that the one about Buccs??

[@KevTheImpaler]

@@casinodelonge Yes, them and phantoms.

[@Otokichi786]

This reminds me the two A-1 Skyraiders taking down a MiG-17 over Vietnam.

[@mikemcguire1160]

That was tactics--the Thatch Weave--probably two more A-1's involved. That tactic was invented so that F4F Wildcats could defeat the more able dogfighter Zero's

[@BobSmith-dk8nw]

@@mikemcguire1160 My understanding of that engagement was that the A-1's saw the jet coming - turned into it and took it on head to head with guns. .

[@johanmikkael6903]

@@BobSmith-dk8nw Jets loses to aircraft with shiton of guns, head on, those Jets should've avoid going head on.

[@BobSmith-dk8nw]

@@johanmikkael6903 Yes. They should have - but - the prop planes could keep turning inside of them so that they couldn't get behind them in the first place. What they should have done - was break off - fly out of sight and then attempt to come back and re-engage hopefully from behind the props. Here though - the ground based Radar of the side with the prop aircraft might have been able to warn them. I think the major factor here though - and this is just a guess - is that the jet jockey's just assumed they were going to cream these prop planes ... and ... were wrong. Another factor in this - was that unlike the Bronco being taken out by the F-16 here - these were A-1 Skyraiders - which were renown for their ability to take damage. Bronco's are little COIN aircraft never intended to take on anything that was a real threat. It's primary weapons system was - it's radios - with it's primary mission being Forward Air Control calling in artillery and air strikes on ground targets. It was a much deadlier aircraft than the Piper's and Cessna's that had previously been in use as FAC's but that's not saying much. .

[@shaider1982]

A Corsair I did the same during Korea

[@dalesharpy9197]

Driving around in your 60’s Camero and then a Lamborghini with Cannons shows up. :)

[@leefithian3704]

3 speed 6 cylinder camaro at that , universal window crank you kept between you and copilot, contant primer grey paint scheme , Incase you got a mission in various environments , yes ....been there

[@ChutneyGames]

@@leefithian3704 wait your telling me there was one crank between two windows?

[@osamabinladen824]

LOL 😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@leefithian3704]

@@ChutneyGames no We only had one window crank , which we passed between us in Florida heat 🤣hence , universal window crank

I was in Caracas that november 27, 1992. A Bronco was chased by a F-16 and then made a maneuver that consists of flying in circles inside a cloud. The F-16 did that too.

[@StarCraftBoy100]

how i feel when i play props and i meet jets in Warthunder,,,,,,

[@gotanon8958]

When you play with your friends and 1 of them chose the top tier line up instead of the prop line up....

[@RomanTheMexican]

best game ever (if you see it more like a simulator instead of a game, because its realism becomes pain)

[@RomanTheMexican]

@@arshdeepsinghmalhi4554 give money to the snail

[@PilotTed]

@@RomanTheMexican best game ever if your a masochist. Seriously, I use to play that game all the time from 2014 to 2020, but I often took breaks. I just can't bring myself to play anymore. The bugs, glitches, exploits, server problems, BR compression, and the fact Gaijin refuses to fix any of it and just keeps adding new modern vehicles. Remember when they said they would never add modern vehicles? Remember when they said they will never ad premium/purchasable top tier vehicles? They can't keep promises. One other gripe I have is the fact the dev server is only open for 2 days, and they never announce it publicly when they are open either. How else are people supposed to test new features and vehicles??? Dev server should be at least a week minimum, and should give all players access to all the new features and vehicles that way players can find the bugs, glitches, exploits, missing features, etc so that it isn't released into the live servers causing chaos. Remember when the FJ4 was first added with the first ever guided munitions the bullpups? Yeah I do. Players could literally use the camera used to fallow dumb bombs and dumb rockets to guide the missile from the air base into the battlefield and kill enemy tanks. All the player had to do was sit on the airfield, getting free reloads and never having to worry about retaliation because of the base AA. That could have easily been avoided if gaijin had let people test it out.

[@swenhtet2861]

I’ve managed to get my first jet kill in a P-51 Mustang when I was was playing Ground Realistic battles. Then in Air RB where I shot down a He-162 in an AD SkyRaider.

[@johanrunfeldt7174]

During the Iran-Iraq War of the 1980s there quite a number of dogfights carried out between Iraqi Mi-24 Hind-Ds and Iranian AH-1 Cobras. The Mi-24 was faster and better armed, while the Cobra was MUCH more agile. The standard procedure for the Iranian pilots was to call for backup from CAP F-14 Tomcats, and in at least one such instance the Iraqi pilot turned his Mi-24 to face the F-14 head-on. He fired two of his AT-missiles and scored a hit, damaging the F-14 enough to force the crew to bail out. I must say though, this outcome was an exception, not the norm. That said, I need to say that shooting down a slower more agile plane is harder, much harder than this video makes it seem like. The odds are still on the side of the faster plane, but it's not as clear cut as stated here. A good pilot in a plane that can fight back, can turn the table. It happened several times during the Vietnam era, with USAF Skyraider pilots escorting rescue helicopters shooting down half as heavy MiG-15s and MiG-17s.

[@richardclarke3924]

Sea harriers in the Falklands war shot down a number of Pucaras (similar to the Bronco) in one on one combat, you don’t get more manoeuvrable than the Harrier!

[@KB4QAA]

It's not a matter of maneuverability. The jet uses its speed to make a slashing attack ending in a kill.

[@LogieT2K]

The harriers had Aim-9Ls Mate. Dont need to manourver when you cant target them fron all aspects

[@richardclarke3924]

@@LogieT2K The Argentinians lost 30 aircraft, 24 to sidewinders and 6 to Harrier cannon fire. Of the the 30 aircraft lost, 5 were Pucaras, all shot down with cannon file, Mate.

[@therealmp40]

@@richardclarke3924 This is true, however you also have to remember that Pucaras were always carrying a full combat load of bombs and rockets, which was the state they were intercepted in. They weren't in much of a state to offer a dogfight. However in a dogfight between a Harrier and a Pucara with no ordenance there wouldn't be much of a reason for the Harrier to try using maneuverability to it's advantage, since the only way for it to match the Pucara's agility would be to use viffing, which would throw away their speed out of the window, leaving an easy target for other Pucaras to sweep in for the kill. I mean it has happened before, one plane baits the superior enemy into slowing down so that another sweeps in for the kill, and considering Pucaras during the war sortied in larger numbers than the Harrier CAPs, it wouldn't be hard to pull off if the pilots fell for it. But that never happened, because british pilots knew that, that's why you won't see any "I chased after him" in british memoirs, there will be more "I went in to take the shot" lines.

[@antonior3978]

@@LogieT2K The Argentines had more than 47 super soundfighters, and more than 80 multipurpose aircraft with speeds close to the Harrier. The british has just over 40 harriers (not supersonic) and still managed to shot down over 30 aircraft, losing only 2 and none were shot down by another aircraft. 4 harriers were lost in accidents for which Argentines say it is a terrible plane, what they do not tell you is that 13 Pucará were lost in accidents during the falklands despite the fact that the Argentine pilotos dont have to land on aircraft carriers with planes that exceeded 1000kph

[@FullMetalBaldo]

The history of Venezuela's power struggles was really interesting, keep up the good work!

[@PrintsCharming13]

Probably not the message you intended to convey with this video, but what it really did for me was remind me how cool the OV-10 bronco is.

[@davidbell8320]

The RAF carried out a contest between a lightning and spitfire many years ago, the lightning won by diving and climbing, look it up im sure a better description to be had than my memory

[@nor0845]

Yes, they found that a climbing attack from below/ rear was the best solution.

[@1IbramGaunt]

Couldn't it just as easily have just used it's SRAAM's?

[@nor0845]

@@1IbramGaunt This was a long time ago, can’t remember exactly when, but missiles not so good back then and had trouble getting a lock. For the Emperor and Tanith!

[@1IbramGaunt]

@@nor0845 well yeah, against something like a Soviet Mig-21 sure, but against something at close range like that and moving at a comparative snail's pace they shouldn't have any trouble I'd have thought, expect that's what the Lightning pilot just would immediately do in that situation. And yep haha well spotted, I see we have similar taste in books

[@nor0845]

@@1IbramGaunt I’m sure there was a tv documentary about it but as I said it was a long time ago. Yes, got my Tanith Cap badge 🙂. Cheers and thanks to David Bell for highlighting the comparison with the Lightning.

[@Theogenerang]

This is why the allied prop pilots simply waited for the German jets to run short on fuel and return to land at their bases before targeting them during their landing approach. Todays combat prop aircraft are really out there to attack ground targets, transports and helicopters and they can do that all day long at a fraction of the operating cost of an F16.

[@marcbrasse747]

That is not entirely true. The early jet engines had trouble spooling up quickly. You really had to manage their trottle-levers very carefully. So a landing Me 262 could not just trottle to max up and overshoot. If they could have the Allied fighter would soon find themsleves in trouble. The faster aircraft can normally always dictate the fight by taking distance when cornered, providing it also accelerates well.

[@charlesdickens6706]

.....apparently the desired necessary alloying metals for me262 jet engines where not available for the Germans. Cobalt, chromium ,vanadium and all those goodies so they had a short operational life .

[@marcbrasse747]

@@charlesdickens6706 Exactly. In theory they had the more efficiënt and earodynamic axial flow designs but they simply did not have the metals.

[@carlosviloria8239]

Just a side note from a Venezuelan: After Chavez gained the Presidency, he devoted all his energy and neurones to demolish every republican institution as well as every single productive sector, public or private. At the same time he would leave the door open for other foreign power to take a foothold (China, Cuba, Iran and Russia, mainly). As in every well-born socialist regime known, the economic devastation he and his successor created was followed by an ever increasing repression of the unavoidable protest, thus creating the largest diaspora known in the world, just after Syria, more tha 5.5 million citizens feeing everywhere. Also, not sure why it is said in this video that Chavez planned to put Caldera in office. That's a new one for me.

[@skydive7054]

these are the type of videos i search up but cant find.

[@lego4av]

I was 7 years old Venezuelan in 92.. I am now proud American and just learning that the were 2 coup attempt.... Cool as hell video about jet versus prop.. I am been looking for a jet that crash at carlota airport in caracas....

[@rikshelly13]

Things were what they were. The Bronco was terribly runabout and could loiter all day. The pilot did what he could but fell to that gun, but was not a US Marine Corps Bronco driver that might have at least evaded that wicked good 16 pilot. Wicked good 16 pilot... he sat at edge stall speed to get that gun kill. His plane was nearly falling into a flat stall when he ripped off that burst that put down that novice in the Bronco. Big props to that Falcon pilot, but he would have never gotten the chance against the US Marine pilots this plane suited best. Mad respect for all involved. Warfighters.

[@Pulang_Diwa]

There was an incident earlier than this during the 1989 Coup attempt in the Philippines where rebel T-28 Trojans were destroyed by U.S. F-4 Jet Fighters.

[@hanschristianben505]

correction on that, the USAF F-4s were only doing show of force flights, never firing a single shot, the Philippine Air Force F-5As were doing the counter offensive punch… I was there during that coup attempt…

[@flyboymike111357]

A predator drone came close to downing a Mig-25 with an airborne version of the stinger missile. The Mig only survived because its weapon had better range for a head on engagement and because the drone fired its missile from an excessive range. If a prop aircraft got within range to use a stinger or a sidewinder, it wouldn't be any different from a grunt, truck, chopper, or jet firing a similar missile. If helos are dangerous for jets to attack because they can hover, a prop plane with stovl can also use a jets speed against it if they have sufficient counter-measures to defend, which are just available to a modern nation using COIN aircraft as they are for combat helicopters. We all know that the US should have kept building OV-10s for the Civil Air Patrol, Forest Service, Coast Guard, Air National Guard, and NOAA. We all know that when the US started flying armed drones that crashed anytime they lost satellite signal that OV-10s should have been used in places where there were already troops on the ground and fast jets attacking insurgents. And we all know that those OV-10s would have been equipped to defend from Iranian Jets in the unlikely even Iran wanted to interdict US CAS aircraft. Can you really suggest that an OV-10 armed with sidewinders would be helpless if it got within dogfighting range of a jet, but an apache would be perfectly capable of defending itself?

[@johnasbury7511]

I'm new to the channel . Wow I do believe that you are going to blow up big. One of the best on youtube

[@EdNashsMilitaryMatters]

Cheers man.

[@deanfirnatine7814]

@@EdNashsMilitaryMatters Agreed bud, good stuff

[@email4664]

@@EdNashsMilitaryMatters Sort of lacking a reply to the corrections to your gross inaccuracies. Good video, but in Historian circles, one must address the mistakes made, and make an effort to correct them, otherwise, you are spreading misinformation. The comment in question is quoted as follows- Juan Rodriguez Juan Rodriguez 1 month ago Good video, but I got a couple of corrections to make, I'm Venezuelan and I live in Barquisimeto (were the air combat took place) 1. Chávez wanted himself as leader of the country, he did NOT want Caldera and the coup had nothing to do with him. 2. The f16 took of without air to air misiles, it just had gun ammo. The airport had been under attach for a while, and the plane took off out of a cratered runway. The bronco tried to stay out of the way of the f16 by flying over the residencial areas making sure if he was shot down the plane would kill as many civilians as posible. The bronco was dead as soon as the F16 took yo the skies, the only reason the air battle lasted was by using residential building as a shield.

[@flashbackhistory8989]

In 1963, Wind Commander John Nicholls flew a Griffon-powered Spitfire PR Mark XIX against an English Electric Lightning F3. He had this to say about the resulting mock dogfights: "[A]t the time of the Indonesian confrontation ... since the Indonesian Air Force operated a large number of P-51 Mustang fighters, we were very interested in discovering how best [an English Electric] Lightning might engage such an aircraft, In the RAF we did not have any Mustangs, but at Binbrook we did have our Spitfire with a performance that was, in many respects, similar. Thus is came about that our Spitfire came to be involved in a short battle trial pitted against a fighter that was her successor by three generations. Of course, from the start we knew that the Lightning could overtake the Spitfire by nearly 1,000 mph -- there was no need to run a trial to prove that. But we did find that the fighter presented a very poor target ot [Red Top] infra-red homing missiles, especially from the rear aspect. And, since the Lightning would therefore very likely have to follow up its missile pass with a gun attack, a high overtaking speed would have made accurate firing very difficult. On the other hand, if the Lightning pilot slowed down too much he could end up playing the slower and more manoeuverable fighter's dogfighting game and lose. ... Another problem was is the Spitfire pilot had sufficient warning of the attack he could spin around and meet it head-on -- and thus present the most difficult target of all. In the end we evolved a type of attack that was the antithesis of all I had learned from my own operational experience of fighters-versus-fighters combat over Korea. Instead of trying to get above the enemy and diving on him to attack, we found it best to use the Lightning's very high power-to-weight ratio to make a climbing attack from behind and below. From that angle the field-of-view from the Spitfire was poor, there was a good chance of achieving surprise and the infra-red source gave the best chance for missile acquisition. If the Lighting pilot did not acquire the target or bring his guns to bear on his first pass he could continue his steep climb--which the Spitfire could not possibly follow--and when out of range he could dive and repeat the process. Using such tactics, we felt that in the end a competent Lightning pilot could almost always get the better of an equally competent Spitfire of Mustang Pilot." As you might have guessed from Nicholls' narrative, the first encounters between the Spitfire and the Lightning weren't guaranteed wins for the faster jet. Although the Spitfire doesn't seem to have "killed" the Lightning during any of their encounters, it was able to dance away until the Lightning pilots tore up their old playbook and wrote a new one.

[@DiogenesOfCa]

Every time I play WarThunder I get owned like that Bronco pilot did.

[@benthomas2232]

This is a good example of Jet Bias. An F16 flown by a professionnel pilot against a GROUND ATTACKER flown by an inexperienced rebel. Of course the F16 wins, there's no question. When someone actually pits a Jet vs a Prop FIGHTER, both flown by professionnels who know their aircraft, then we'll see.

[@MetoFulcurm]

For real, and jets are extremely expensive, many prop planes would overwhelm a jet.

[@benthomas2232]

@@MetoFulcurm jets can outrun and just boom and zoom prop aircraft.

[@simetric6551]

Who told you the Bronco pilot was inexperienced ?

[@kimkeam2094]

Thanks for the videos as there is so much information that I was unaware of. I purchased your book before I viewed the KZbin chapters and I am awed by your skills in life threatening situations. I was pleasantly surprised when I found all this as well.

[@EdNashsMilitaryMatters]

Cheers! Much appreciate the support :)

[@firefox5926]

0:31 well its really depends on how you arm it .. if you take say a spit fire and fit it with say high of bore axis modern self contained air to air missiles that dont require the launching aircraft to track the target with radar ... and if the jet doesn't see the spit and engage from beyond the horizon and if it also doesn't see the spit first visually or if it engages in a dogfight then yes the spit could very easily out turn it and let lose with an AAM and blow it out of the sky... tho that would require the jet pilot to be very very compliant.... hell with this set up a kite armed as such could too

[@dsdy1205]

A typical War Thunder Air RB match, circa 2024

[@helbent4]

Counter-example: During the war, U.S. Navy Skyraiders shot down two Vietnam People's Air Force (VPAF) Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-17 jet fighters: the first on 20 June 1965 by Lieutenant Clinton B. Johnson and LTJG Charles W. Hartman III of VA-25; Using their cannons, this was the first gun kill of the Vietnam War. The other was on 9 October 1966 by LTJG William T. Patton of VA-176. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_A-1_Skyraider

[@WardenWolf]

The problem for the piston fighter is the jet's ability to boom and zoom them. Even if the jet cannot turn with them or hit them with missiles, it can perform a quick strafing run on them and get out of range before they can react. And modern cannon and fire control computers will allow them to hit from much greater ranges. Basically, the piston fighter will be dead before it knows what hit it.

[@toribenita_kyo]

There's a rare photo of a RAM (Reform the Armed Forces Movement)-piloted T-28 Trojan trying to dogfight with a PAF (Philippine Air Force)-piloted F-5 Freedom Fighter during the 1989 coup attempt in the Philippines and it's the weirdest thing ever -- A small, prop-driven trainer/COIN aircraft from the late 1940s hot on the tail of a climbing jet fighter from 1960s.

[@kosapatryk3588]

I Just discovered my new favorite youtuber.. Continue please

[@miker1721]

At 3:57 the Bronco has its landing gear down, and the pitch attitude makes it appear as if it is trying to attempt a landing.

[@jakobholgersson4400]

I believe that the Tunnan shot down a bunch of Hawker Hurricanes in Kongo. If I'm not mistaken, the only air to air kill of any Saab aircraft. Unless you count the Saab/MFI "Biaffra Babies" that destroyed MIG 15's on the ground.

[@1IbramGaunt]

Just makes me feel sorry for the poor old Hurricanes frankly

[@anthonywilson4873]

Is that something a jet fighter pilot would boast about. There are these really old Second World War aircraft and I shot them down. He did his job earned his money that day, period.

[@LosBerkos]

@@anthonywilson4873 Who?

[@jakobholgersson4400]

@@anthonywilson4873 Did I say that it was worth boasting about?

[@aurigo_tech]

Essentially the same issue with biplanes vs monoplanes at the beginning of WW2/late 30s. Biplanes are crazy agile, much more so than a Bf109 or Spitfire etc. - but those are much faster (and usually more firepower) and control the fight in the same way as the jet did here.

[@ABCantonese]

Nowadays, props vs jets is basically the same as seals vs sharks. I don't know about Vietnam, but no one thought about using props on jets even back in Korea. Tucano vs MiG-21, so the MiG's performance is balanced by less advanced avionics, is still bet on the MiG.

[@PilotTed]

Before anyone else brings it up, in Korea there was that one time a Po-2 (one of the slowest aircraft every created in WWII and was a soviet design) "shot down" a Saber because it was so damn slow, that when the pilot of the Saber slowed down to see what it was, he stalled and had to bail. I could have gotten something wrong, but tbh, it was the pilots fault, and the Po 2 deserves no credit lol. The pilot could have easily just swooped in and shot it up a bunch and left before the Po 2 pilot even knew what hit him.

[@Itsjustme-Justme]

Besides the better cannon of the F-16 (the Bronco only has standard machine guns that don't reach very far and need many hits for a kill), I bet this fight was "unfair" in a second way. Pilots of ground attack units are not that much trained in dog fighting tactics against fast fighters. Simply because in a regular war scenario, they do their job against ground targets, while jet fighters protect them from above. Right before the kill, the Bronco manouvered in the wrong direction, giving the F-16 pilot the one second he needed to pull the trigger. This means it had been outmanouvered some seconds or one curve before. The Bronco pilot didn't even go as low as possible. The Bronco, with its excellent vision from the pilot's seat, excellent low speed and low altitude handling, can fly below the tree tops and through the streets between higher buildings, almost like an helicopter. Of course it is a maximum risk tactic because he can hit obstacles like electric wires, but everybody who follows hin that low in a faster aircraft has even higher risk to see an obstacle too late. This Bronco's pilot stayed above the trees and did not use them or buildings to protect himself. At the same time, the F-16 pilot, obviously well trained in dog fighting, flew at full risk, very slow, very close. In the moment he killed the Bronco he was extremely close to it. With both pilots trained for dog fighting and both very aware of the abilities of their aircraft in this kind of flying, nobody can tell how things will end. There was a comparable uneven pair many years before. The Fieseler Storch against the high performance prop fighters of its time. In a one on one fight, the fighter had a very hard time to kill the Storch. A Storch will a well trained crew of two could even get dangerous for the fighter, when they avoided getting into the fighters gun sight and used their own, flexible mounted machine gun. Even tough, I am not sure if a Storch crew ever had a confirmed kill against a fighter. They even tested survivability in a training fight during WW2. Gerhard Fieseler himself, fighter pilot during WW1 and world aerobatics champion in the 30s, tested a Fi 256 prototype against a Bf 109 G flown by a regular fighter pilot. The 109 didn't even get one single picture of him on its gun camera. Fieseler had never been specifically trained in the fighter tactics of the day, but I'm sure he had flown one or another of the 109s or 190s that were licence built in his factory and of course he was one of the best pilots of his time. In a fight two fighters against one Storch, the Storch had no chance, because the fighters were able to use their speed and come from two directions simultanously.

[@g3heathen209]

I remember playing a game back in the day, you could take a phantom jet and try to take down a b-17. It was surprisingly hard, because the bomber did not have enough heat for the missles to lock on and at close range the defensive guns of the b-17 were dangerous.

[@TheNicestPig]

AIM-9Bs had no problem locking onto Hellcats, a B-17 with 4 bigger engines would have been no problem as well. What you were playing was probably not very accurate. And if all else fails, radar guided missiles are a thing.

[@mcal27]

Bittersweet...fun to see the Air Combat..but the OV-10 is my favourite Aircraft ever..sad to see one shot down. Impressed by your grasp of the troubles in Venezuela also. Kudos.

[@effingsix3825]

For a propeller equipped A/C to compete with a modern fighter, it would have to be capable of a wide variability in its speed envelope, from very slow to about 400 knots. Thus the engine would have to be a turboprop. The propeller gives off a huge radar reflection, so this is its handicap. But the handicap of the supersonic jet is that it can fly faster than its own bullets in an engagement requiring the use of its guns. A close-in engagement will also require slowing down below 400 knots and flying very low in altitude where the turboprop will not have a lag time before the engine spools up, because the turboprop has a constant velocity propeller. The disadvantage to the jet, if the turboprop is able to evade missiles, is having to lower flaps and slats and manage its energy and angle of attack at a slow speed and very sluggish response. The Bronco was a sitting duck, but the F-16 looks like they took chances too. A much better equipped attack turboprop aircraft designed for the purpose of engagement and missile evading would have been a real handful.(how you would evade incoming missiles in a turboprop is sci-if right now.) Thanks for making the comparisons, I’d never seen these videos!

[@Bellthorian]

LOL Heat Seeking missiles would have no issues locking onto a piston engine fighter. I was a Stinger gunner and during training I could get locks on Seagulls.

[@masonphillips6605]

The "unless the pilot was dumb" at 4:20 got me good haha

[@kingjinga2539]

RIP The guys in the bronco.

[@slavicco8368]

Yeah, it's always a shame when a pilot is killed. No matter who fights for who they're still fellow aviation fans and fellow pilots. Rest In Peace

[@PilotTed]

@@slavicco8368 He was a commie that was avoiding being targeted by flying over the city and only got shot down when he entered an open area. Yeah, he hid behind civlians, he had no shame.

[@JoseRuiz-ez8rc]

He's alive today!

[@alejomoyano5184]

beatiful Pucara pass in a 0:22 minutea

[@Wolf-Nyan]

That’s a pretty clean kill I’d say. Short clean burst to knock out the other guy. That loyalist pilot knew what he was doing, no fuss, just a quick brrrt to put an end to that. I’ll admit I’m mildly surprised the F-16 decided to knife fight with the prop. Always figured a modern jet could just zoom away and leave a prop in the dust, then loop back around to take a strafe at it on its own terms, then zoom away again.

[@Ocker3]

Apparently the Bronco didn't have any good weapons for A2A combat, so the F16 pilot probably felt safe

[@jamesyap8364]

Apparently the F-16 pilot also took off in a hurry and didn't have time to load missiles.

[@TheAndreso_]

The OV-10 pilot, being a natural civil killer (he was going to Caracas to reload bombs and bombard) was using residential buildings as a shield, so if the F-16 pilot shot the OV-10, it would fall on them, so the F-16 pilot had to maneuver carefully and then shoot at the OV-10 at the right moment. Thankfully, it landed in flames in a green zone, close to a residential site but with no damages to it. Sadly, in Caracas there were casualties

[@sanignacio1999]

During the Falklands war two T34 Turbo Mentor of the argentinian Navy managed to escape from two sea harriers who attacked them with cannon fire, even one of the Turbo Mentors got a cannon impact, but managed to break contact and return to Stanley safely. One of the Harrier pilots was Nigel "Sharkey" Ward. I think it´s a very known story. And i don´t know if there are other similar situations in war history were pilots flying turbo prop planes managed to escape from Jets armed with cannons and missiles...

[@ByzantineCuban]

Propellers are like the bolt action of air deffense, not commonly used but still sticks around in time for its specific applications

[@nor0845]

Seeing some of the content on KZbin it makes you wonder what they are sensitive about 🙄. Anyway good vid. Hadn’t seen that footage before, sad to see the Bronco (and crew needless to say) go down but the F16 is one heck of a dogfighter. Great subject though Ed. You keep churning them out. Thanks for posting.

[@michaelbevan3285]

There is other footage of the Broncos being shot down. two were shot down by the same F16 and one fell back onto the airbase it took from. Some of the crews were able to eject.

[@deanfirnatine7814]

They are sensitive about criticism of people like Hugo Chavez, he is a hero to a lot of people in places like Silicon Valley, champagne Socialists

[@nielsandersen6164]

As you said, the Bronco was a close air support aircraft, not a fighter. Even more important is the fact that it was unarmed. I'd say that your example though very interesting, hardly presents any significant evidence. Also, this doesn't answer the question what would happen if a modern jet engaged with a modern prop armed with modern weapons. Remember that you can arm prop figters with air to air missiles e.g. something like the Stinger or Igla, and have some limited stand-off capability against slow flying jets, if you don't go all-in and arm them with Sidewinders or Russian equivalents. Though the fight would have been much less unfair, ultimately I agree that the modern jet has just so much better performance, radar (and IRST) and all kinds of goodies allowing it to dominate even a well armed modern prop.

[@longrider42]

The Bronco for what it is, is a great plane, but it is not a fighter. Try a P-51D Mustang against a jet fighter, with a pilot in the Mustang who knows what he's doing. Also wasn't there a Turbo Prop version of the Mustang built?

[@TheNicestPig]

Same thing. F-16 coming in at 300 knots, brtttt, P-51 goes down.

[@SVSky]

Piper Enforcer

[@erikr968]

I recall reading stories about P-51 pilots having some initial success against Mig-15s in the early days of the Korean war. Mostly because the Mig-15 pilots were inexperienced and tried to turn-fight with the P-51s. I think the success just lasted for the first few encounters though. After that, the Mig-15 pilots had learned their lesson.

[@marcbrasse747]

Within the realm of jets themselves it's the old Phantom against Mig tale. Mig's where much better then we where led to beleive by western propaganda. The Mig 19 was actually better then the F100 Super Sabre (faster, stable, rugged). The faster (accelarating) jet will normally be able to dictate the outcome of a fight because it can simply accelerate away when things get hairy and then re-engage on it's own terms. That's not very chivalrous but war is hell anyway. Furthermore the Phantom had the 4 eyes and hands in the cockpit advantage. So beside pilot skills and tactical insight engine power is also a very important factor. More so then agility as those poor sods in the Bronco would probably agree on. They did not have the luxury of simply disengaging.

[@jabonorte]

Agility only really works as a defence when dogfighting. With a modern cannon/gun sight a jet pilot can stand off a bit and let the computer do the work. Another comment is probably right; the F16 pilot was probably worried about letting go 300 rounds of 20mm shells in a downward direction over a built up area. Brave men on both sides though, for taking sides rather than for the air combat.

[@cliffdixon6422]

Slower aircraft can cause a problem for the latest jets. A good coverage of this is in the book 'Phoenix Squadron' by Rowland White where Fleet Air Arm pilots from HMS Ark Royal in F4 Phantoms had to work out how they were going to deal with the far slower P51 Mustangs if it came to an engagement

[@email4664]

As well as North Korea's use of the Antinov

[@billyjoejimbob75]

CAUTION: Eardrum blowing volume change at 3:54

[@chaz000006]

You forgot the price tag. The Rockwell OV-10 Bronco is $480,000. An F-16 is roughly $30 million.

[@devondetroit2529]

This is a wild story !!! Where did you get the archive footage?

[@iansmith5174]

Turning around in circles just makes you a stationary target. The old adage is just as true now as it ever was; "Speed is life!"

[@JonasRosenven]

Exactly. A jet plane would just go vertical and dive on the prop plane until it got a hit. A prop plane wouldn't be able to follow or counter a move like that.

[@cahilla54]

I’ve never seen air to air combat footage like that before

[@slayerdeth0705]

Like how you ended the video boss. Its better left out, although I could go on all day about that person.

[@EdNashsMilitaryMatters]

Didnt matter, video is demonitized anyway by look of it. Oh well, still think it's interesting :)

[@slayerdeth0705]

@@EdNashsMilitaryMatters This was one of the few times I had heard of what the video is about. A suggestion for a video in line with little known dog fights. The Border War.

[@lucasfeliphe7028]

Really the point of speed/difficulty of keeping up with a turboprop aircraft with a fighter jet is difficult. When certain Afghan aircraft were fleeing to Uzbekistan, a MIG-29 collided with an A-29B In an interception, most likely stalled.

[@enscroggs]

3:58 You can hear the F-16 pilot let off about 50 rounds from his M61 Vulcan cannon at point-blank range.

[@leefithian3704]

Holy shit , F16 ate that poor bronco for lunch , I LOVE the Bronco BTW

[@JoseRuiz-ez8rc]

This bronco had landing wheels down. He was surrendered.

[@leefithian3704]

@@JoseRuiz-ez8rc well , I agree , but also Messerschmitt 262’s used to get nailed wheels down to , even landing lol , I actually had the sweetest Bronco flyby at Jean airport , NV , the other day

[@tammyhenson7295]

Pretty sure the near glowing exhaust manifold on a prop job+exhaust plum will allow an easy lock...

[@tammyhenson7295]

And lets not forget that all turboprops are a jet engine with a gear box...so also an easy lock on.

[@ReviveHF]

Probably the latest case of propeller plane ever involved in a dogfight. The previous one was the US Army ground attack prop plane shot down a MIG during Vietnam War.

[@KineticRhyme]

in my opinion, the existence of light attack aircraft and attack helicopters are the reason why fighter jets still need machineguns/cannons.

[@radianman]

An interesting addition to a long running debate, but the Bronco was not designed as an air to air fighter, and also uses turbo prop engines I believe, so it is not a fair comparison to fighter aircraft like a Supermarine F22 Spitfire or a Hawker Sea Fury on the hands of an experienced fighter pilot. It is unequivocal that modern fighter jets hold the advantage (or airforces would still be equipped with prop fighters), but take away their middles and radar, then close in gun fighting would become very risky.

[@mikestanmore2614]

Occam's Razor: If prop fighters were better than jets, airforces around the world would still be using prop fighters. They don't.

[@LosBerkos]

Well, they do, and that is not Occam's razor.

[@nickpapa1721]

Hawker Sea Fury downed a MIG 15 during Korea.

[@1IbramGaunt]

Well does help if you have a truly superb pilot at the controls of course

[@xmeda]

These are somewhat close. Its like MiG17 downing F4 in Vietnam.

[@ayebeemk2ayebeemk285]

@@1IbramGaunt most migs in korea were flow by russian pilots, of whom many had learned their trade flying against the luftwaffe.

[@uegvdczuVF]

@@ayebeemk2ayebeemk285 lol MOST MiGs in Korea were flown by Chinese pilots who knew how to take off and and land and that was about it...

[@ayebeemk2ayebeemk285]

@@uegvdczuVF go and do some research yourself.....

[@athelwulfgalland]

I think it all boils down to the people, the machines, their training and experience. This video shows a Falcon in a knife fight with a Bronco; Probably the most interesting aerial duel caught on camera I've seen. That said that's the dumbest way a jet fighter pilot can take on a slower and likely more maneuverable propeller aircraft. That pilot should've been either using the stand off ability to use missiles or zoom and boom attacks to take that Bronco down. Just trying to stay in that knife fight you could tell that the Falcon was close to stalling. Had that've been a Cavalier Mustang, a late model Spitfire or something along those lines with higher horsepower, even greater maneuverability and MGs or cannons though? Then this fight might've gone VERY differently if the Falcon's pilot hadn't have changed the tactics that were used here. Make no mistake the day of the prop-fighter is over, but as a COIN/Close Air Support aircraft, it still has it's uses. All it takes though is for one dumb fighter jockey to do what this guy did against the wrong adversary ...

[@bigearl3867]

I've looked at the engagement a few times. From what I could make out, the F-16 was not armed with missiles.

[@athelwulfgalland]

@@bigearl3867 I only watched it once and from how it looked to my eyes I have to concur with your observation. It looked like even the wingtip rails were empty. Still the pilot should've used his speed to take runs at the enemy while lining up on and filling the Bronco with a "burp" of 20 mm shells. Instead we see this ignoramus barely avoiding stalling while trying to stay in a turning fight. That's what I was getting at. I guess if the ends justify the means, he did fine, but he could've handled it a heck of a lot better by exploiting the strengths of the aircraft he was operating. I've no idea what that Bronco pilot was thinking. I imagine that he was just panicked.

[@bigearl3867]

@@athelwulfgalland I agree with you. You think the F-16 pilot got excited, and forgot his training? As for the Bronco pilot, I would have been trying to set it down, and then run.

[@athelwulfgalland]

@@bigearl3867 I think the Falcon pilot either forgot his training or just had insufficient training from the outset? The Bronco pilot, that's probably the most logical course of action he could've taken, all things considered. I probably would've tried fly NOTE to make use of the agility of the aircraft in conjunction with ground clutter to shake or (hopefully) scrape off the Falcon. After all even if I dropped my gear and made for a landing there's no guarantee my adversary wouldn't have lit me up in my landing run.

[@bigearl3867]

@@athelwulfgalland Point well taken.

[@jimbracknell5648]

If Im not mistaken wasn't there an incident during the Korean War where a bi-plane shot down a F-84?

[@alexannal]

Bast line in a KZbin video. "Unless the pilot was dum" brilliant 👏

[@acoow]

What's controversial about Chavez's economical policies turning the richest country in South American into a third world nation?

[@startingbark0356]

Does it matter if the fighter with an propellor is build the same as an jet, with the propellor in the back

[@Name-ps9fx]

In DCS there are many opportunities to have dogfights with WW2 prop fighters and modern jets...jets will lose only if the ROE basically ties their hands together (limited airspace and altitude, guns only, or very high odds against). There’s a reason no modern air force uses prop fighters to secure airspace.

[@TechNiVoltisgr3at]

The president looks like Nicholas Cage playing an old, corrupt politician

[@Parocha]

You got the corrupt part right

[@douglasv85]

Word is that Mr. Burns from The Simpsons is based on a Latin America president (in Venezuela we always wondered whether it was ours (Carlos Andres Perez) or Carlos Menem from Argentina)

[@SithLord2066]

Prop plane: we are circling so close your missiles won't work F-16: ha ha gun goes BRRRRR 3:57

[@stcredzero]

According to Greg’s Airplanes and Automobiles, Taiwan P-47s fought PLA MiG-15s to a standstill.

[@johndavey72]

Thanks Ed. Someone's mentioned the Spitfire V E.E.Lightning in the '60's . I think it came to nought . Yes. It's amazing that we can read and see all sorts of lies and rubbish on KZbin but don't say anything that puts political adversaries who may be held in favour by "another" country .......tut ! tut !

[@LosBerkos]

What is tut?

[@johndavey72]

@@LosBerkos Hi. Tut means naughty or turning a blind eye !

[@tacticalmanatee]

I love the OV-10, but that video shows the limits of such an aircraft in any contested airspace environment.

[@themodernwarfarehistorian825]

I guess this also applied to propeller-driven drones, that would be shot down easily by both fighters and air defences, right? Because some drones (like the Reaper or the TB-2) are not meant for air to air combat, so they are not "agile" enough to evade

[@fredweller1086]

In a protracted conflict, the jet's thirsty engines, intensive maintenance and need for improve infrastructure are a significant handicap. The "better plane" is no good if it can't get airborne.

[@Wolfen443]

Who knew it such a rare footage for a dream scenario for combat aircraft issues could come from Venezuela.

[@DarkIzo]

for anyone interested in practical examples search up prop vs jet in DCS

[@m1ch0_lzz]

i love the way this was in my country and in my state sadly i was not alive at that time :c since i moved to florida a lot of cool stuff has been happening in my country

[@jimjim2953]

gregs planes and automoblies P-47 conclusions start from 1hr for info on taiwanese p-47s vs migs, the whole vid is good though.

[@rich7787]

That channel is amazing. I just got done with part 5 of the P-47 series, it’s so high quality. It’s my current favorite channel.

[@jimjim2953]

@@rich7787 the graphs are a problem if one is colour blind though. if you like detail i also recommend tik history.

[@guaporeturns9472]

Love that channel

[@10percenttrue]

Bronco has his gear down and has obviously decided to call it a day! Still, a kill’s a kill. Great video and channel.

[@anthonyscott8639]

Title suggests a focus on a specific air combat scenario. If all the information that is not specifically related to that title was cut from the video, it would be half the length. Give the audience what clicked on.

[@davidmcintyre8145]

The RAF tested this in 1963 where a spitfire was able to completely outurn a Lightning F.3 a notably agile interceptor when there was a possibility of FAA aircraft or Lightning's having to face Indonesian P-51s

[@davidmcintyre8145]

@geoff chilton The thing is that the Spitfire which was the point defence interceptor of its day doing exactly the same job as the Lightning was being used as a stand in for late model P-51s because the RAF no longer had any P-51s available and if it had come to a knife fight the Lightning would have lost. In the end the advice given to pilots was the same as that given to USN pilots facing the Zero in WWII"Do not get into a turning dogfight"

[@jenniferstewarts4851]

A-1J got bounced by a Mig-17 during vietnam war, and manage to take out the Mig with Zuni's. Truth and reality is the first problem being the planes loadout, next, what "modern" jet... Some modern jets used by air-forces have limited and/or very unreliable air to air ordnance. For example, lacking look down shoot down radar, and thus having a hard time or complete inability to target low flying targets with missiles. At the same time some countries also make use of older heat seekers that are still rear aspect only, with ranges under 3 miles. Versions of the AA-2 for example. This ends up with strange situations for example where... one side might be fielding mig 21's and mig 29's but limited to AA-2 missiles because the airforce couldn't afford better missiles or was blocked them by embargo... facing off with Embraer EMB 314 Super Tucano, carrying Aim-9's or Python 5's which ranges from 15-20km+ giving them the standoff advantage and all aspect lock on capabilities.

[@fredweller1086]

Not all "modern jets" are equal. A front line Taiwanese F-5 would have it's hands full with a Tucano. Whereas their F-16 would have no problem (lookdown / shootdown).

[@jenniferstewarts4851]

@@fredweller1086 exactly, but remember its not just the jet, but the weapons the country has to mount on it. You might get a country fielding an F-14 but not having Pheonix missiles so instead use Hawk Missiles, which have horrid ground clutter tracking. OR you might get a country with Mig-21's, but are carrying R-77's with 100 mile ranges... All of a sudden the mig-21 is able to take pot shots at f-14's and f-15's from well outside their weapon ranges. There are more then a few situations where... ww2 fighters... operating in mountain terrains like greece or parts of the phillipines/burma/asia... COULD stand a chance against modern jets... simply because the type of terrain would push the combat into the ranges and speeds that would favor the prop job.

[@fredweller1086]

@@jenniferstewarts4851 I recently read an account of Iranian Tomcat pilots in the 80s smoking numerous MiGs. With guns and AIM 9s. They used the superior F14 radar to coordinate attacks against the Iraqis. Sun Tzu ed the crap outta them. Its all about controlling the battlespace.

[@jenniferstewarts4851]

@@fredweller1086 Oh yes, but at the same time remember, the F-14's radar was made for use over ocean, the flat deserts (per say) and wide open spaces, were great for that kind of radar. Same with arctic territories, long flat regions with no big hills... Nothing to hide behind, nothing to clutter the radar. Problem being put the same aircraft into heavy mountain areas with cliffs up to 20,000 feet, valleys, and now its more about the ability for pilots to spot and identify targets themselves fast, and deciding hwo to respond.

[@BobSmith-dk8nw]

The typical prop over jet confrontation has the prop aircraft turn into the jet and take it on head to head with gunfire. In most of these cases - the jet - is also trying to use guns ... but can't take as much damage as the prop aircraft so it loses. IF the jet is using missiles from outside gun range ... the prop has a problem ... You hear about the prop beating the jet - because it is unexpected. The jet beating the prop - you are less likely to hear about since it is to be expected. .