Prophecy Brief: Did the Pre-Trib view exist before the 1800’s?

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[@ruanvandenberg3901]

Your systematic exposition as always so well presented!

[@davidwilkins5932]

After more than 50 years as a Christian, I still get weary of the “Darby, Darby, Darby” dismissal. Augustine caused huge damage that continues to refrain to this day. Since his time, the practice of allegorizing and spiritualizing has done nothing but increase. Even the Reformation did little to change the course. Despite a minority who often speak loudly, the pre-mil / pre-trib positions seem to be held by an ever decreasing number. For those who continue to struggle with the issue, I highly recommend the book ‘Things to Come’ by J. Dwight Pentecost. It’s such a beautifully written and structured piece of work, that I think it serves well as a reference work on the subject. He compares the broad swaths and their scriptural basis, and concentrates heavily upon method of interpretation. The book was first published in 1958, which offers a refreshing break from the mass of material published in more recent years, a lot of which isn’t very good. After reading voluminous material on the broad subject over a period of decades, I’ve never been more firmly pre-mil / pre-trib.

[@CalvaryChapelFranklin]

@@davidwilkins5932 well said

[@evertbakker5307]

Thanks for that

[@davidn3843]

Pentecost's book, is an essential. 100%! His systematic literal approach to scripture irons out so much error. Blessings and kindest regards David from Australia. 🌏 🙄☝️

[@NICHOLAS-THE-WATCHMAN]

I love how brother Tommy Ice delves into early church fathers, going back to around 100 AD when looking how far back the; pre 70th week harpazo was a clear and profound doctrine.

[@GM-jv9jz]

Thank you for your on line teachings. Greetings from the Black Hills of South Dakota. God bless you !

[@CalvaryChapelFranklin]

@@GM-jv9jz God bless you too!

[@MrMikemcmillan]

Thank you pastor for this teaching

[@monty8930]

I agree that future prophecy is important to keep in mind. God clearly gave it to us for a purpose. However, I cannot understand why the rapture in specific is so focused upon. I believe we are given insight on these things so that we may be watchmen and warn/save others when the time is upon us…not so we can bicker amongst ourselves on whether or not we get to avoid it.

[@TheWatchmansPost3929]

According to John 16:13, it is natural that a believer be led into Eschatology, it is part of the work of the Holy Spirit to equip believers!

[@85rockhound]

There is a book that I am reading titled "The End Times By The Ancient Church Fathers" by Ken Johnson. Have you heard of it? He provides evidence that at least some of the Church Fathers held to a pre-trib Rapture view.

[@bobobricklayer]

Another clear reason to study this topic is that there is an end to the current age planned by God. It won’t continue on the way it has in the past. We are exhorted numerous times to be ready for this event. One cannot read the NT without coming to this conclusion. “And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed.” ‭‭Romans‬ ‭13‬:‭11‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

[@beauchal]

Irenaeus wrote about his belief in the "assumption of the church" where the "baptised spiritual ones" will be raptured prior to the antichrist being revealed. While his view could be surmised as a pre-trib partial-rapture, (the entire church is not raptured) the thought is there in the 2nd century. Ephraem of Nisbis also wrote: "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins" (On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World, by Ephraem the Syrian, A.D. 373). That is 4th century pre-trib rapture thought. So no, it didn't start with Darby although he and Scholfield certainly popularized it.

[@TheWatchmansPost3929]

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come"- John 16:13.

[@TheWatchmansPost3929]

For the testimony of Yeshua is the Spirit of Prophecy....Revelation 19:10.

[@MrJuanete12]

Good day, brother. I think you may need to clarify some points here. Paul clearly teaches that the rapture cannot occur until the man of sin is revealed, 2 Thessalonians 2:3. By Paul's teaching, this means that the rapture cannot happen pre-trip. I would find it hard to argue that the Church seeing the man of sin with their own eyes before the rapture would be considered pre-trip. Can you give us your thoughts on this point? To Christ our King be the glory!

[@TheWatchmansPost3929]

Though I identify as PreWrath in my personal understanding, I have no problem being caught up earlier! Who would?

[@TheWatchmansPost3929]

Without the knowledge of "things to come" (John 16:13), deception and doctrinal error could persist and lead many astray.

[@mytwocents777]

Manuel La Cunza (Jesuit theologian), in his book _The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty_ , can be credited with introducing the notion of two future comings of Christ. He based his ideas on the earlier Futurist eschatology of the Jesuit, Francisco Ribera, in his treatise _In Sacrum Beati Ioannis Apostoli & Evangelistiae Apocalypsin Commentari_ which he had written as part of the Counter-reformation effort to disspell the widely-held Protestant understanding of the identity of the final anti...ist as the Roman Catholic Papacy by introducing the idea of a future anti...ist. So, the notions of a future anti...ist and two comings of Christ were introduced by Roman Catholic Jesuit theologians. Edward Irving translated Manuel La Cunza's book from Spanish in 1827, which influenced early proponents of Dispensationalism such as Darby and Scofield. The Jesuits were thus successful in altering Protestant eschatology.

[@evertbakker5307]

What came to mind that during the tribulation all whom not obey to the Antichrist and take his mark will be killed, so if there was no pre rapture all believers will be killed, not really. Comforting. An other scriptere what say that many will be decieved even the elect if it was possible make me think, what is it what makes it not posible for the elect not to be recieved (thats is excerly a question Pastor Brian) Likely the rapture?!

[@petergouvignon8048]

Why spend time on a position of the last days which happened 2000years ago Act 2:17-18 ISV 17 ‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on everyone. Your sons and your daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, and your old men will dream dreams. 18 In those days I will even pour out my Spirit on my slaves, men and women alike, and they will prophesy. All prophecy ended in Ad70 Daniel 9:24 conclude vision and prophecy, No prophesy for 2000years years why?

[@SpotterVideo]

What does the Bible say? All man-made Bible doctrines are revealed not by the scripture quoted by its proponents, but rather by the scripture that must be ignored to make it work. What does an understanding of the New Covenant do to the Pretrib Rapture doctrine? Since the New Covenant is “everlasting” in Hebrews 13:20, how is the New Covenant Church age going to end seven years before the Second Coming of Christ? Why would anyone think God is going back to the Old Covenant system now made “obsolete” by the New Covenant in Hebrews 8:13? We are not come to Mount Sinai in Hebrews 12:18. We are come instead to the New Covenant church of Mount Zion and the blood in Hebrews 12:22-24. Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it. The Capitol "C" Church, as we use the word today, is not found in the entire Book of Revelation. Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found. In Revelation 12:11 we find those under the blood of the Lamb. A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ. Verse 12 of this passage proves at least part of the tribulation period is the wrath of Satan upon the people of God. Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. "It may come as a surprise to most pre-Trib prophecy students that the post-Trib position (in its primitive form) is the oldest point of view." (The quotation above is from the book "Will You Escape The Tribulation? RAPTURE [Under Attack]", by Tim LaHaye, copyright 1998, Page 197.) Tim LaHaye was co-author of the “Left Behind” books and movies which have convinced millions of modern Christians that the Church age ends seven years before the Second Coming of Christ. Recently, Pastor Matt Furse of Mountain View Baptist Church in Custer, S.D. has written a book titled “Which One Is Right?’, which reveals the recent history of the pretrib rapture doctrine, and the fact it does not agree with what is written in the King James Bible. The gathering of the Church is described at the end of 1 Thess. Chapter 4, and the timing of the event is found in chapter 5. The word “But” in the first verse of chapter 5 connects the two chapters, and the words “we” and “sleep” in verse 10 of chapter 5 prove the two chapters are connected. The Greek words for “wrath” and “tribulation” are not the same word, as proven by the verse below. Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. Watch the KZbin video “Pretribulation Paradox” by former pretrib believer skydiver626.

[@TheWatchmansPost3929]

The timing of the Rapture is of little importance. Our "Blessed Hope" is a declared promise to all believers.

[@richardkean5100]

In the early 1960s I took classes from the Dwight Moody Bible Institute on the theory of dispensationalism. At the time I was all in because it made sense to me. After many years of study I come to know the idea of dispensation( in my view ) are subjective way of putting God on our timeline. The Bible says that God has "set times" for the Book of Hebrews state the Feast days of the Lord are shadow of things to come. The children of Israel were to keep these Feast as a reminder of God's redemptive plan, rather they knew it or not. There is a big difference between a dispensation and the Feast of the Lord. Dispensations don't repeat themselves. A Feast of the Lord cast a shadow pointing to the substance that would come. They are repeated until the substance is revealed. The idea that the Church could be rapture at any time is incorrect because the rapture ( if there be one, which like you I lean that direction) is one of thoses Feast days: The blowing of the trumps will one day happen on this Set Time. This Feast of Trumpet ends the Pentecost harvest and announces to the Israelites nation to remember God and repent. From this point on God again will deal with Israel. That's why the 144,000 in chapter 7 of Revelation is there. I believe when Paul said it will be at the last Trump, he was referring to the 100th blast of the shofar and on this blast Church will leave. I hope you don't take this as a criticism for I don't mean it as such. It's another point of view to my knowledge as not been considered. Thank You nice job

[@CalvaryChapelFranklin]

@@richardkean5100 Thanks Richard!

[@bradharford6052]

Many people are talking about a soon coming rapture and presenting complex charts and timelines, but most seem to ignore a few very simple and straight forward scriptures from the mouth of Jesus Himself. We've got definitive reason to believe that Jacob's trouble, abomination of desolation, end of the age, etc. all occurred between AD 63 and 70. Matthew 16:27-28, Matthew 23:34-36 and Matthew 24:24 make it quite clear. It is very clear in its context that Jesus was speaking to and about the generation that was living when He spoke these words. The transfiguration in no way fits what Jesus said to His audience as recorded in Matt 16: 27-28 as some try to force it to mean. Bottom line is that without all the complex math and time spans and ancient history lessons, Jesus said plainly that those that were hearing Him, would experience ALL THESE THINGS in their lifetime (generation). Unless Jesus was mistaken and all of His apostles and disciples misunderstood Him, all those things happened in their generation just as they all were expecting them to. I don't think anyone can deny that the first century believers all expected these things in their generation. No new testament scripture suggests otherwise.

[@BIG_r.]

pretribs messiah is darby :)

[@ZUGTFO]

Answer: NO

[@shawnkeith1164]

Pastor brought receipts for his views, can you bring them for yours?

[@Knife_Collector]

The 70th week. The last week, after 3 1/2 years the Messiah will be cut off, (death on cross) and the people who shall come after (Rome 70ad) shall destroy the city. He (Jesus) shall confirm the (new) covenant with many (Jewish nation) for one week (the time he was here teaching plus the following 3 1/2 years till the end of the 490 years). And shall cause the sacrifice to cease (animal sacrifices no longer needed), and for abominations shall make it desolate (meaning it will be destroyed) The abominations were what he spoke about referring to the Pharisees, and things the people were doing thru the years. Now, what happened at the end of the 490 years?? The Jews did not accept Jesus, and 3 1/2 years after Jesus, Stephen was stoned, Paul came on the scene, was chosen to be a messenger, and salvation went to the gentiles, just like it was prophesied. A continuous 490 years with no gaps.

[@Robert-r4s4c]

The Protestants, who invented the rapture, are very clever at manipulating Scripture to mean what they want it to mean. Darby's rapture is a bit different to the Protestant one. He taught in 1832 that the Church would need to be "silently" removed from the earth in order to make way for the completoin of God's dealings with the Jews. 1.Thess. 4:16-17 has absolutely nothing to do with a rapture (caught up in the air to meet the Lord in the clouds). People do not know the real reason why those believers who are alive go to meet the Lord in the sky. They are not being "raptured". In the Second Coming, Christ comes with his angels, NOT his saints. Those who believe in the false rapture are unable to read and interpret the Scriptures correctly. They all misinterpret it the exact same way, even so called Bible "experts". Also the Second Coming is NOT when Christ establishes his Kingdom on earth with his saints. Christ will not rule on the earth. His saints will do that. Christ will rule from heaven. Christ did say his Church must remain on earth and suffer great trials and persecutions before it can be perfected. This is why there is no rapture of the Church. It has to be purified. Also it must endure the infestation of the Antichrist.

[@davidwilkins5932]

Read the plaintext. Believe the plaintext. That’s why it’s called faith. If any theology has been “created” it was during the corruption of the Constantine era (and some before), when many “church fathers” decided to crawl into bed with political power. They felt the need to craft a theology that was less revolutionary and threatening to political power, and in turn they were lavishly rewarded. In essence, they set about the long business of becoming the Great Whore. But it has been almost two millennia, and the time for the fullness of the actual path has come due. Allegory and spiritualization is rapidly reaching its expiration date.

[@onlyjesussaves840]

@@davidwilkins5932 I so can't wait for that! :) Amen! :)

[@onlyjesussaves840]

The Bible was written LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG B4 the Protestant denomination was ever established. The Pre-trib. rapture has 'ALWAYS' been in the Holy Bible since the beginning of it's writings. Pastor Brian went over all that in this video.

[@Robert-r4s4c]

@@onlyjesussaves840 Are you Pastor Brian's spokesperson ?

[@shawnkeith1164]

@@Robert-r4s4c are you the spokesperson for the non-Protestant Church?