Prot Paladin Talent Guide - TBC Classic

[@josephschultz6750]

You're easily the best prot paladin knowledge source out there. Thanks for the videos!

[@SubtleFW]

Thank you!

[@JAlvarez1104]

Awesome video. Hitting all the buttons and things. This is some of the best prot paly content out there.

[@SubtleFW]

Thank you!

[@trentonbarnes5230]

Was waiting for this vid - thanks!

[@Kikuku94]

you're the man really

[@kavenjohnson8012]

Enjoy your videos very much. I'm new to Prot Paladin and struggling with rotation more than I should and having mana problems. What would be the best reference to see a good rotation for pre-patch and find additional pointers?

[@SubtleFW]

Thanks, glad you like em! I'll have a vid out soon talking about the full wrath rotation. The rotation is a little funky in prepatch, since we're missing shield of righteousness. But basically: pre-cast Holy Shield before every pull. Then for single target, use the Big Threat Opener macro (found here wago.io/4QENh8JhB). Next you'll use hammer of the righteous > judgement > consecration > holy shield > hammer of the righteous and just kinda keep using everything as they come off cd. Since we don't have the full rotation yet, you can weave in avengers shield and Holy wrath (if fighting demon/undead) when you have gaps. For aoe threat, precast Holy shield as always, then throw avengers shield. Then you'll do Hammer of the righteous > consecration > judge > Holy shield > Hammer of the righteous and keep using everything as they come off cd. Judge is your lowest priority here when multiple spells come up at the same time. If you're fighting undead/demon, you can lead with Holy wrath to get good snap threat on everything

[@kavenjohnson8012]

@@SubtleFW Thank you! I'll study and give it a go. Keep up the great work

[@trad5479]

Great vid! I'm personally rocking the imp sanct aura spec, with MD's and your cooldowns, snap threat is not an issue and you get amazing aoe threat. I thought the comparison about Imp Sanct Aura as a trade-off for an extra stam trinket to be pretty interesting. How would you evaluate Imp sanct aura compared to another dps trinket like Eye of Mag.

[@SubtleFW]

Yep with some good communication with hunters, you can really overcome lack of AS and Exo. For single target, Eye of Mag is worth about 35 dps (vs Demon/Undead boss, in my threaty uncrush set) and Imp Sanc is worth about 19 personal dps + 130 group dps. So you're gaining about 114 total raid dps going from eye of mag to stam trinket + imp sanc. For AOE (using a 12 undead Hyjal pack example), Eye of Mag is worth about 354 dps and imp sanc is worth about 80 personal dps + 240 group dps. So you're losing about 34 raid dps going from eye of mag to stam trinket + imp sanc The group example I used for this is an Ele Sham, Boomkin, 2 Warlock group that I'm sometimes in

[@jrrivera3]

You should do a video on how prot paladins should prepare for BT and MH. Like which equipment to take, fire resist etc etc. Other than that keep up the great work, always great to watch your prot paladin content!

[@SubtleFW]

That's a great idea, I'm just not sure I'll have time to get one done before T6 release. But I did go over fire res and early shear sets at the end of my t6 gear vid: kzbin.info/www/bejne/kIekfaaKbcqNhbM I made some significant changes to the early shear set since making the video, which can be found in the video description

[@SubtleFW]

Alright I'm gonna make sure I get this done. Hoping to have it out Wednesday

[@figuures6098]

I'll be going imp sanc aura for hyjal and BT. typically have an ele/spriest/arc mage group, so giving them that 2% should be nice

[@SubtleFW]

Perfect group for it! They will love you

[@ravenblack9272]

Very informative! thank you

[@mrpeffko]

What kind of build would you recommend for a fresh 70 without any noticeable gear? For getting into doing first heroics, mostly 10 man/ catchup raids. The deep port one? What are the breakpoints gearwhise for switching to a higher threat build? Thank you for the content, really helps to get a general idea of what to do.

[@SubtleFW]

I'd start out with deep prot and move to Sanc once you have mostly heroic/kara/badge gear. There isn't really a set in stone breakpoint, but I'd say once you have 12k unbuffed hp and 400 sp you could switch over. Glad the vids help! Many more to come for Wrath

[@vipespcxbox6012]

Hello again man! I read the other day that due to diminishing return, it’s best to go with 3 in toughness and not 5. I’ve not tested this myself or looked any further into it. Just wanted to check with you and get your input/thoughts

[@SubtleFW]

Hey! You always want to go 5 in toughness, it's one of our best talents for survivability

[@MaidensRag]

So, on the vengenace spec, you say low survivability but is that only due to the lack of stamina? Id imagine with enough raid buffs and t6 prot gear you can tank just about everything up until illidan+sunwell with this set. Just curious if the label was put on there due to anything else other than the lack of stamina

[@SubtleFW]

The reduced stam and also reduced Holy Shield charges from Improved Holy Shield, so it will fall off on bosses and make reliable active uncrush impossible, plus some reduced blocks on trash. Depending on if you go full anticipation/deflection, potentially less avoidance from those as well

[@Rivek]

@subtlefw Are you running a variation of the 0/40/21 but with 3 points in Reckoning shifted to Shield Spec for early Hyjal prog?

[@SubtleFW]

Yep that's the plan

[@Rivek]

@@SubtleFW That was the swap I was planning to make as well. Thanks, and keep up the great content!

[@ctfootball14]

I love your vids man, you’ve made me such a better player! I’ve got two Questions: I just joined a new guild and they have me in a group with an hpal, giving imp sanc. I typically ran your sanc build with my old group, but with imp sanc would I want to respec? I think a good option would be to go crusade build, but I have no intention or desire to throw my dang shield in T6. So could I put that point into crusade or shield spec? Thanks for all you do brotha!

[@SubtleFW]

Hey glad I can help! I like the crusade build the best overall with external sanc, since it's a little better for trash. For pure single target/parsing, you'd want to go imp SoR. I would definitely grab Avenger's Shield if you're putting more than 40 points in prot, but if you really really don't want it for whatever reason, you can put that point into anything you want, which would probably end up being Shield Spec

[@ctfootball14]

@@SubtleFW thanks for the reply! I’m not exactly looking to parse just yet. I understand that we’re all going to be doing this content basically for the rest of the expansion, but I’ll definitely be going imp SoR down the line! Have a good one my guy!

[@ctfootball14]

@@SubtleFW funny story, my guild had me do deep prot for our first night since I had an external sanc. Well, I respecced to the sanc built for some heroics and Kara and forgot to spec back when doing Illidan. We killed him easily, and I didn’t really have issues staying alive. Sanc build slaps, man.

[@SubtleFW]

@@ctfootball14 very nice! Yah big problem with deep prot is its biggest talent (Ardent Defender) is pretty rng on whether or not it will ever even do anything on a boss fight where it's all big single hits for the most part

[@vipespcxbox6012]

Hey bro, wondering going into sunwell if my spec should change up a bit. We run 3 tanks, pally Druid warrior. I don’t do too much MT. I can mt and usually when contents on farm we’ll switch up. With that being said just wanted your input

[@SubtleFW]

Hey, if you're not MTing, I'd just go with 0/40/21 if no external sanc and 0/43/18 if you do have external sanc

[@vipespcxbox6012]

@@SubtleFW preciate it!

[@TheXerosyn]

Not sure if you're still checking these messages. I am just returning to my 70 pally, was mid dungeon gearing. 54.45 avoidance, 490 def. Would you suggest the 0/40/21 build you show? That's what I was using, just a slightly different points. TY (Edit) Ill be dungeon grinding for a bit, no raids yet.

[@SubtleFW]

Hey, yah I get notifications for all comments. 0/40/21 is solid for dungeons. But Avenger's Shield makes things quite a bit easier, since most packs are 3-4 mobs and you'll have a ton of threat on most or all of the pack before they've even reached you. When you're still gearing up, Devo Aura is really helpful for keeping you alive, so you do have a really good aura alternative to Sanc already. 0/43/18 is what I'd go with. A big thing you have to watch out for is that AS does cost a lot of mana, so it's important to manage your mana well to keep the runs going quick. Main way you can do this is to stop casting spells once you have a threat lead that nobody will pass before the mob dies. For example, if you have a 5k threat lead on a mob that's at 10%, casting a Judgment isn't going to change anything but oom you quicker. I also recommend grabbing some Flasks of Blinding Light (really cheap now) and Superior Wizard Oil too, they'll have a huge impact when you're still gearing up and don't cost much

[@TheXerosyn]

@@SubtleFW TY, Do you happen to have a video explaining rotations while tanking? IE like which seals to run, judge, etc.

[@SubtleFW]

@@TheXerosyn not yet but it's on the list

[@TheXerosyn]

@@SubtleFW Have any help by chance? I keep getting destroyed in heroics (only done two so far), but I am pretty much all pre-raid BIS. I get complaints that i half less health than most and get dropped.

[@SubtleFW]

How much hp do you have and are you crit capped? It is definitely an uphill battle starting out tanking this late in an xpac. People expect you to have raid gear, which of course is unreasonable. Even after heroic nerfs, some heroics may still be harder than Kara, so you may want to try to start with that, though you'll probably run into the same issue of people expecting you to have raid gear already. You can also use Flask of Fortification and Fisherman's feast to get some extra hp. Flask of fort gives defense too, so may allow you to use some extra stam gems/enchants

[@Srelathon]

Ardent Defender is definitely good while doing stuff like farming Strat as you're going to be taking lots of small hits and maybe during Hyjal trash since you're going to be pulling most of the mobs to you, but other than those I haven't really found any situations where it's very useful.

[@SubtleFW]

For farming it's hard to beat Vengeance spec, and you'll actually take less damage by just killing things quicker. AD could be worthwhile in hyjal if you're having survivability issues, but generally FAP rotation should take care of that. It's really a pretty weak talent most of the time. Luckily it gets significantly better in Wrath

[@zineddinejourney]

I did your aeo talent farming...still can't do shattered halls cause i wanted that trinket !

[@zineddinejourney]

Also problem with mana

[@rjgjr77]

I'm late to the game in TBC. I'm not looking to do any content beyond heroic dungeons and aoe farming for gold in preparation for Wrath Classic. Which of these specs would you recommend for that? Thanks!

[@SubtleFW]

For heroics as an undergeared prot I'd go for this 0/51/10 build tbc.wowhead.com/talent-calc/paladin/-0530513350000142521551-05005 Survivability and pull threat are going to be your biggest issues without raid gear. Avenger's Shield will help you a lot with your pull threat and the fights will be so short that the sustained threat of Sanc Aura won't be as important. This will also allow you to use Devo aura, which will help your survivability a ton in dungeon/heroic gear. You're also going to want to use Blessing of Kings over Blessing of Sanc for most heroics, just depends on how much damage you're taking. For farming, you'll want the 0/31/30 build: tbc.wowhead.com/talent-calc/paladin/-0500503340000140501-0510505030030125

[@rjgjr77]

@@SubtleFW can I tank heroics with the 0/31/30?

[@SubtleFW]

@@rjgjr77 you probably could now that they're nerfed in the new patch

[@henshire]

ty bro u advise but (sry my english) i cant change build everyweek its inviable, question is a build all terrrain, can i get good amount threar without santctuary ? its betther sanctuary vs ARmor ? im a fuuck noob with paly tank need a build i havent to change a lot XD except when i m going to boost in sTrat xD im lvl 60 now

[@SubtleFW]

Hey np. I'd just go for a deep prot spec (tbc.wowhead.com/talent-calc/paladin/-0530513350002102521551-05205) while you're lvling and gearing up. Survivability is pretty rough early on. Once you've got some T4/heroic/badge gear, you can move on to 0/40/21 if you don't have an external sanc or one of the other builds if you do have an external sanc

[@phillipgoninon1699]

Can we wear Oil and get WF or not? asking because 48/18 looks Amazing.

[@SubtleFW]

Unfortunately you can only use one or the other

[@phillipgoninon1699]

@@SubtleFW which one would you prefer for tps?

[@SubtleFW]

@@phillipgoninon1699 Windfury is gonna be a little more TPS in single target than Wrath of Air + Oil. I just take whatever totems make sense for my group as a whole

[@chrisgod27]

Whats your take on reckoning i want to go crusade spec but have been told reckoning can just get you killed with bad procs any information on that?

[@SubtleFW]

It can occasionally get you killed from parry haste, but it's pretty rare, wouldn't sweat it. I run 4/5 reckoning for everything atm

[@TinyTaurenRK]

What spec would be good for a freshly dinged paladin looking to do dungs and early kara runs?

[@SubtleFW]

I'd go for something like this: tbc.wowhead.com/talent-calc/paladin/-053051325000010252105-05205020300301 If you're having issues with threat on the pull or you're gonna have someone else providing Sanc Aura for you, you could go for a spec with Avenger's Shield like this: tbc.wowhead.com/talent-calc/paladin/-0530513350000112521051-052050003003

[@Lone-Wanderer28]

So, I've been gone for 6 months or so. Which talent build would help a Kara geared Paladin catch up?

[@Lone-Wanderer28]

Btw. Good video

[@SubtleFW]

0/40/21 if you don't have an external sanc

[@SubtleFW]

ty!

[@Lone-Wanderer28]

@@SubtleFW I thought so- Thanks.

[@Xante112]

For leveling a prot pally which spec would you go for, Sanc or deep prot? new to tanking

[@SubtleFW]

I'd go with deep prot for leveling but drop spell warding and put those 2 in reckoning

[@Xante112]

@@SubtleFW Ty for the reply :)

[@BrettBeer123]

which one of these specs would be best for a starting paladin so dungeons like shh heroics and kara

[@SubtleFW]

0/40/21 is the best all around spec, unless you'll be running with a ret pally consistently, then 0/43/18

[@jaypeesan1877]

As ret main I hated being shoved into prot pally group just to provide sanctity...agree 100% on the statement rets do not wanna do that. For farming the vengeance build is dynamite! agree..

[@SubtleFW]

Yah really not necessary to decrease a ret's damage for that when prots have so many viable options

[@trevorp875]

I get this but due to MH being mostly aoe trash, wouldn't it be better to provide more threat so locks/mages go crazy over your single target? I understand you could rock SP/Conc aoe damage but eh. That said I love 0/40/21.

[@SubtleFW]

@@trevorp875 Yah specifically for Hyjal trash it would make sense to have the ret in your group if you didn't have your own Sanc. You probably wouldn't have them in your group for the bosses though, except maybe Kaz'rogal

[@trevorp875]

@@SubtleFW Yeah agreed. You don't need the extra threat on the demons or infernal since exorcism.

[@rustyshackleford3316]

Is the ashtongue talisman better than the new badge libram?

[@SubtleFW]

You can use both since they go in different slots

[@ksherman51]

Do you have a discord?

[@SubtleFW]

I don't but I'm thinking about setting one up

[@SubtleFW]

Hey I have a discord now! discord.gg/yjsnC4V6JP

[@moh608]

In my recent experience... Always skill Ardent Defender - this caused several wipes - or at least this build is not recommended in Spellgear

[@SubtleFW]

Definitely depends on the healers you're running with how much you might need it

[@GaddCraft]

what a champion

[@axeaxe7678]

Thanks!

[@TWAD0ME]

What spec r u now?

[@SubtleFW]

Running 0/46/15 for sunwell prog atm

[@TWAD0ME]

@@SubtleFW ah okay, what is that UI? I love your combat bars and cd stuff.

[@SubtleFW]

@@TWAD0ME Dominos for the bars, WeakAuras for the combat cd stuff, Nova Raid Companion for raid cds, Shadowed Unit Frames for unit frames, and Plater for nameplates are the main ones. I have profiles for my main addons here: docs.google.com/document/d/1GtHLgOokP5maRg365oBrqSsz3AyLPgr16Ypd6ATLNH8/edit?usp=sharing

[@MrFrazzleDazzle]

I’m just now trying to learn how to play paladin. It’s an alt and I will play it casually. Just trying to find guides and learn appropriate builds, but everyone bases everything off of raids and raid groups. I don’t want that

[@SubtleFW]

0/40/21 is a great all around spec that will be good for just about anything you do. Unless you're gonna consistently be grouping with someone who has Sanc Aura, then I'd go Crusade for an all around spec

[@Bartinoles]

So about vindication and reducing a mobs health, i ran this talent for a bit in t5 but dropped it after i learned the following: "Vindication proc reduces mob's max HP (and only max HP) by about 6.5-7.5% (at 3/3 points), based on a random sample of mobs I fought today. When the debuff falls off, it resets the mob's max HP. Neither of these changes affect their current HP, unless the max HP reduction reduces their max below their current. Thus Vindication only does "damage" if you proc it before the mob drops below 93% or so, and would never "heal" a mob." direct quote from pala disc. Basically the health reduction never happens unless you manage to get a proc off on a fresh mob. So unless theres mobs with a ton of health that isnt immune to the effect, this talent isnt worth the points imo.

[@SubtleFW]

Yah I think there was a brief time in pre-nerf T5 when it was worth it, but I don't think it's really gonna be worth it the rest of the xpac

[@pickrobber9449]

you know nothing john SubtleFW :D % dmg increse is better then spell dmg items in fact in vengeance spec and more tanky items, you can have more surivability and more threat then in deep prot and lots of sp...

[@SubtleFW]

Haha I dunno about that! Got any logs of you running that? Curious to check em out

[@danbill9165]

Great video but I can’t justify losing kings and the block3/3 ,

[@SubtleFW]

Thanks! Yah that's fair, those points are really gonna come down to personal preference

[@TwobrokebyeOnline]

I run 0/31/30 anyone else?

[@mg6114]

First lul

[@ryuukochan95]

can you comment on the value of toughness 5/5? prot pally in my guild is 2/5 and i'm pretty sure this is not ideal. thanks

[@SubtleFW]

Toughness is one of our best defensive talents (worth around 300 armor per point now, even more with T6 gear). I would never go less than 5/5 for raiding

[@ziggyrocks5595]

Hi, I don't know if you will respond, but any help would be nice. Anyways, I am leveling a Prot Pally tank to play with friends. Which of these do you think would be best for things like 50-70 dungeons in a group with a mage/warrior?

[@SubtleFW]

Hey I'd go for this spec while lvling tbc.wowhead.com/talent-calc/paladin/-0530503350000152521551-05005 and then 0/40/21 at 70. I also recommend grabbing some superior wizard oil, and you can also use greater arcane elixirs and blackened basilisk if you want. The extra sp helps a ton in general, but especially while lvling