Room correction and DSD

[@PSA78]

Room correction will never create miracle; room treatment and speaker placement as good as you can get it, then room correction might give you that last bit. I'm using a fully active system that I built (speakers, amplifiers and DSP) and I do exactly what Paul says, noticeable peaks (to your ears) can be brought down, but it's easy to degrade the sound by trying to get a perfectly flat respons (measuring in room). Low frequency is all about the room, adding a subwoofer (or more) might help higher in the frequency as well, if you're lucky (though they should Never be crossed over high, like 200Hz). More indirectly it could potentially make it possible to move your speakers a little bit to fix a higher frequency dip, while the subwoofer(s) correct potential new problem at lower frequency. 🙂

[@Bassotronics]

Probably there are bass frequencies bouncing off the walls and reaching you at exactly 90° or 180°. You can place a bass trap on one side of the wall (test the walls) so that way the delay of one reflection can help attenuate the issue.

[@AnimusInvidious]

Physical room treatment is always preferable to post DSP, when possible.

[@sickjohnson]

I am a huge fan of what DSP can achieve, but you ain't wrong one bit!

[@emrealtan3522]

After some room treatments and adding subwoofer, experimenting placements and measuring speakers with a mic, optimizing the position, i still had bumps and dips around +/- 5 - 6db’s, and I’m really pleased with Behringer Deq 2496 in the digital domain for room correction, I also use A/D converter (Behringer Src 2496) with my turntable to connect to Deq 2496 and quiet pleased with the results, they are very very transparent, i couldn’t detect a slightest difference from that original sound, i can easily recommend them especially for what they bring on the table according to their price. And adding an active subwoofer below 50hz area with a smooth curve upwards also means you’re helping both your amp and speakers, so raising a few db’s (I try to keep it down 4dbs at most) here and there won’t be a problem imho…

[@digggerrjones7345]

Nova Scotia is one of the *southernmost* provinces of Canada!!

[@sidesup8286]

.............. A POEM.......... The Good Kind That Rhymes! What a tangled web one weaves When at first we had tone controls But then fall for the straight wire with gain disease. .

[@hoobsgroove]

I would say hes got skinny speakers I pulled them away from the side walls a foot, also you can try a baffle on the outside of speaker to the floor and curved to about an inch above the woofer, place against the speaker this can be made from cardboard and about double the width of the whole speaker flat or slightly pointing in. It will give you some enhancement around these frequencies. Also pushing them back can have a bearing increasing your mid lows and bass, you might have them too far out in the room as well. also check alignment electronically with REW can cause cancellations if not correct. You can use REW live seeing its frequency, if you get somebody just to move one speaker maybe just twisting one speakers don't have to be even necessarily. Get a subwoofer one with a built-in EQ that you can go high up to 200 Hz with a good quality sub.

[@uraldamasis6887]

Room correction is extremely useful when it's implemented correctly in software, However, the reason room correction can't fix "suck out" or "notch" frequencies is that these suck-outs are caused by the shape of the room, where at a certain frequency the sound bouncing back off a wall is exactly inverted to the sound coming out of the speaker, thereby cancelling it out. Increasing the amplitude of this frequency in EQ doesn't restore it, it's still cancelled out. However, the NEARBY frequencies to this notch (give or take a semitone, let's say) would be made louder by bumping up the frequency, which would only keep the existing problem you had, while adding new problems as well.

[@djhmax09]

Room treatment will definitely be the most effective and the best solution to the problem. But it is expensive and it will take up a lot of space if you're trying to treat low frequency pressure. And on top of that, you have to sift through all the BS marketing acoustic companies tell you to find the right product that will directly address the situation.

[@davidstevens7809]

Wrong.

[@ChiefExecutiveOrbiter]

Sounds about right, someone will always sell you (anything) you (want) if you're (willing) to believe in it. Any company selling room treatment would love to make promises of celestial transparency and jujubees raining from the Moon when installed "properly", then you try a diy solution like egg cartons backed with cotton balls with better results. 😂

[@fitsman]

Some room nodes you just cannot avoid due to dimensions. Its just physics. Adding a sub is not easy but in my experience is so worth while. I use a JL Audio CR-1 to do the xover for the mains. Lets all bass go to sub at the point and slope of my choosing. Sub can go in best placement for bass. Then I apply room correction using Roon Convolution filter. Can be done free with REW and a $100 mic. Of course you need Roon for this. But many have that already. Yes I still have a peak and suck out around 50-60 hz area. But its minimized down to about 3-4db. Rest of the curve is great. Do room first, then correction is my advise.

[@John-Edward]

Het Paul I see all those Sprouts behind you and boxes below… Are you guys now assembling the Sprout in Boulder, CO USA?

[@Paulmcgowanpsaudio]

No, but we have always tested each and every Sprout before shipping them to customers.

[@richardramorino3319]

I have a system with Dirac. I love it. A friend was deeply skeptical (pure tube and analog guy) heard my system and now feels he has to have it. Dirac is also a powerful equalizer. I had a guy who used to work in a studio help me tune mine. It also DOES help with some suck-out. Sorry. I understand why you shouldn't be able to correct suck- out ( zero times anything is still zero) but I can measure with REW and and hear it. A subwoofer is still the best answer for suck-out of course.

[@randyduncan795]

One of the sneaky things even high end processors with room correction pull is downsampling high resolution digital to more efficiently process all the delays and eqs. For example, when fed a 24 bit 192KHz or 96KHz source they will downsample it to 48KHz. I'm ok with that so long as it's done in an upfront manner. Not everyone can feed a 40KHz test tone through a 24/192 A/D converter just to see what comes out those preamp outputs. Trust, but verify.

[@michaellundy3551]

The 200Hz suckout is similar to an issue I have in my room. When I have the speakers as far out into the room as I can have them, 4-1/2ft., I get the largest soundstage but have a suckout centered at 150Hz and spanning from 125Hz to 175Hz. When I move the speakers back to a position 3ft into the room, the suckout goes away. The trade off is that the soundstage gets a little smaller. It's a room mode cancellation issue and the only way to fix it is to get the listening position out of that modal intersection. Since I can't move the listening position, I have to move the speakers.

[@davidfromamerica1871]

Maybe it’s because you are playing the wrong music.😀 Play music your neighbors like to hear..🤗😀👍😎 kzbin.info/www/bejne/a3bFmoWIpcaMeJY

[@rollingtroll]

Years and years and years of going to audio shows and demos and visiting fellow audiophiles and never ever did I hear a subwoofer do a great job. Yet I have faith in Paul's assessments and it's one of the major reasons why I'd love to visit PS Audio (which I probably never will, distance and finances are a thing). I'd love to hear how he set it up though. As for DSP/Room Correction; Though it does exactly as it promises, I never heard a rig where it wasn't blatantly obvious that the sound was meddled with. Though I can see it work in the low-end to get a small speaker sounding a little larger, as soon as it does anything more than that it just completely deadens the sound. Yes it's impressive how a properly set-up room correction can completely make the space disappear. No echo, no hollowness, but also no music. For some poeple that's a trade-off they are willing to make. I'm not one of 'em.

[@sickjohnson]

There just isn't very many good fast subs out there, and the problem is 2 fold, as they are frequency range restricted/limited to efficiency (box size/driver type & matching/driving power)...especially in sound quality regards combined with room dynamics. To combat that you need multiple and in 2 ranges to over come these issues as well is a DSP also...a set for mid sub (kick drums range so 80 down to 25 Htz) and a set for sub sonic (pipe organ range below like 25 Htz) or like a pair of 1812's in a good room if you get what I mean? It's rare to have a full range speaker that doesn't drop off before 50 Htz or sooner and rooms magnify it. Also there is the issue of the source material and it's range limitations as well, plus the master's personal preferences when mixing with regards to the bass specifically. I've experienced hundreds of concerts and tuning them via DSP...and only a couple didn't suffer from the from deadening/meddled effects; I always leaned towards operator inexperience/error with that though. On the home systems and even car audio DSP systems I didn't notice it so much, as it is like you said a compromise big time; but I do prefer dead rooms more than bright ones, yet I don't suffer much from compression drivers oddly. Not all DSP correction system are created equal as some do have patents pending on their specific tech. None of us like locating the speakers, thus appreciated that holographic 3 dimensional realism; I didn't notice many DSP systems taking that away though...but you have me thinking man! Few 2 channel systems employ DSP (DSP 8000's), it's mostly in home theaters in my experience in the last 10 years...no?

[@20CycleMonger]

What room size and speaker? 200hz is a multiple of 50hz.... Is the room square? OP is trying to avoid DSD to analog to another ADC/DSP/DAC conversion. I doubt thats possible?

[@turboboost99]

Problem with room correction like Dirac, ARC, Audyssey, etc. is that they all work only in the digital domain. So, his analog signal from the DAC will have to be re-digitized into PCM, then converted back to analog a second time after the corrections have been applied. The only problem he needs to contend with is the 200 Hz null, which can most easily be taken care of by simply moving the listening and/or speaker positions.

[@DigitalPhilosophers]

I have no doubt one can call it “miracle“ what room correction did in my room. Not only the bass that got tighter/quicker also holographic imaging/darkness between the sound events increased

[@jimdavis5230]

A combination of a large number of velocity traps and limp membrane pressure traps will solve most listening room acoustic problems. I have done this in my listening room and the result is superb. Despite me building all my traps it was very expensive and involved a lot of hard work to build and install them. I don't believe that digital processing room correction is a good idea because it doesn't attack the root of the problem. Extensive acoustic room treatment does attack the root of the problem and is the way to go.

[@davidstevens7809]

Totally agree

[@sickjohnson]

Good advise Paul...kind of wish we could see the room to understand how 200htz was getting pulled out...that is odd...no? If his system had the rare extreme luxury of loads of head room he could drop everything except 200htz and 50htz...but who are we kidding right?

[@arieshechter]

I had exactly the same problem, and I solved it with Lyngdorf TDAI-1120 room correction

[@davidfromamerica1871]

Maybe that is why most all the high end stereo stores went out of business. They didn’t have room treatment.

[@josefbuckland]

One day Paul will just reply with 'Sucks to be you' LOL

[@davidfromamerica1871]

That is when his PSAudio sales pitch comes in. .👍🤗 Plus the only way you can experience true high end audio with his system he sold you is to buy his entire Octave album collection..😀

[@OldTooly]

Isn't "suck out" just phase cancellation. Phase cancellation is simply the interaction of 2 wavefronts that are 180 degrees out of phase to the other. Absorb one and the problem is reduced or completely eliminated. No?

[@Nick_4i]

If you can fully absorb it, sure. That would require a gigantic (or extremely expensive) bass trap, though

[@daleboylen6427]

Hmmmmm. I've never had much luck "fixing" rooms with phase cancellation due to physical dimensions. Damn near impossible. Adding a sub, in my opinion, is making that problem worse because the issues facing those rooms have to do with low frequencies as the room simply is going to have issues Sure, you can place that sub in a different location, but if the ROOM is phase cancelling 50 hz and below, the room is phase cancelling the sub, a bookshelf, a floor stander, makes little difference because it's the length of the wave vs the physical size of the room causing it. The other issue is the room doesn't merely cancel frequencies, it also doubles others. I wish you luck fixing that. As Paul said, those are easier to fix. But you'll have peaks and dips at the harmonics of those fundamental frequencies also. Good luck Chuck. Room correction cannot work, in my opinion because the mic used cannot distinguish between direct sound of the woofer or floor bounce, low frequency room nodes or low frequency phase shifts. Nor can it distinguish between direct sound from the tweeter or splash off the cabinet face. And that whole one mic two ears thing. Bass is a bitch in most listening rooms, at least here in America. YMMV

[@davidfromamerica1871]

Paul is not going to like you too much. He is planning on releasing his own subwoofers for you to buy. Paul wants you to buy not one of his subwoofers. He wants you to buy two.😀 Paul says you need them.👍 Then redo your entire room with new updated room treatments for his Subwoofer’s..😀 Makes perfect sense.🤔🤗

[@daleboylen6427]

@@davidfromamerica1871 Not to worry.

[@sickjohnson]

Rooms will always be the problem, combined with lack of head room; thus why I like dead rooms more. They used to say human hearing was not much below 50 Htz audible not that long ago, and they would say you are only hearing/feeling just air pressure...? The size/volume of the room needed to hear a 40 Htz frequency is massive. Best I have seen to over come this is near field subs...and big ones with loads of power behind them.

[@daleboylen6427]

@@sickjohnson You are correct. Seems few that love that under-damped low frequency noise seem to care though. Buddy of mine is buying a sub for his Focals. I warned him of the nightmare he's about to place himself into. Didn't seem to care.

[@Metalhead-4life]

Great camera Paul your vids look great lately (especially w/ RTX Video Super Resolution)

[@deankim6687]

I have 4 subwoofers and still have a suck out at 55hz.

[@davidfromamerica1871]

Buy 4 of Paul’s subwoofers when he releases them for sale. 👍🤗 I am sure Paul has already solved your suck out problem with his new and improved subwoofers. 👍

[@kcr2365]

Just use headphones

[@ewhite5381]

As I Canadian, I knew there was going to be at least one person complaining about your description of geography. Paul, please ignore them and keep up the good work.

[@dougg1075]

How will AI effect the industry I wonder

[@davidfromamerica1871]

How long can predatory sales practices continue taking advantage of people’s mental state of mind and emotional insecurities. As far as AI development and advancement technology, it is dependent on its ability to learn faster than the human brain can comprehend. The human brain cannot complete with AI. The tech industry says there will be safeguards in place. The question is for who. The military is not interested in such AI safeguards. Government’s are not interested in AI safeguards for there own interests. Government sponsored cyber hackers are not interested in AI safeguards. Corporations are not interested in AI safeguards to increase their profit margins. Including job security for employees on their payroll. The Actors Guild and Screenwriters Guild have already rang the alarm. They personally witnessed the advancement of CGI technology in the movie industry. Paid movie extras are replaced using CGI. Robotic companies using AI technologies. AI is open source, any Government has access to it. China, North Korea, Iran. Etc. Can AI be used in Audio..? It is and has already been used in audio using Algorithms for decades. Algorithms are the basic foundation and framework for advanced AI. AI can sing, play instruments, write music and songs. Holographic images of music artist have been used for a number of years.

[@Bassotronics]

A.I. Paul will be recommending 60” tweeters to play bass.

[@davidfromamerica1871]

@@Bassotronics AI Paul holographic image appears in your listening room beamed from the PS Audio system you just had delivered. The AI Paul holographic image walks around the room looking for all the problems in the room. Make sure all the equipment is set up properly with the proper cables/power cords, power conditioner. AI Paul talks to you about the importance of his Octave music playing on his system. AI Paul does the Subwoofer crawl , telling you where to angle all the speakers perfectly. AI Paul sits down with you to listen to the music, ready to answer any questions you have. After all that the PS Audio system makes AI Paul disappear. Not to worry, AI Paul Will always be there in person when needed.

[@Bassotronics]

@@davidfromamerica1871 Perfect! 🥹

[@shipsahoy1793]

Setup, setup, setup !! Oh, did we say setup ?!! A decent (stereo) setup in a fairly decent room with a synergy through component selection may not require subs, if your taste allows. Room correction is seriously overrated by the unenlightened, those without home theater equipped rooms, and/or the people that have a vested interest in its viability. If most of my bread was buttered by the sale of subwoofers, I’d be telling you that every set up needs a pair of subwoofers, no matter what, giving you justifying examples as to why.. And, if I was a person who spent many dollars on a pair of subwoofers, after spending even more thousands on floor standers, I would take that position which establishes my spending that money as a wise choice. Ditto on the room correction. Room correction doesn’t fix the problems, it just modifies the output response. It’s such a hypocrisy for a purist to advocate room correction. All you are doing is moving the places in the space that sound bad or non-optimal to your ears to different locations within the room. Beyond stereo, people raise the white flag, bc setup becomes a more difficult and less reachable goal, so they say, I give up.. I need digital technology to bail me out of this mess, and the more automated and least involvement required of me, the better lol I say, suck it up. That’s why they call it a hobby. 😉

[@Nick_4i]

All I'm doing is moving the problems to a different place? Sounds good to me! I couldn't care less if theres a bass null in the top right corner of my room, because I don't listen to music up there.

[@shipsahoy1793]

@@Nick_4i my point was that a good stereo setup without room correction is going to leave you sitting in one listening spot, which is the same result using more costly room correction. It’s basically pointless in many cases, as it doesn’t “fix” acoustics. Just place and point the stereo speakers correctly for your listening position and done. If you need subs anyway, there’s a good chance your speakers don’t dig deep enough, your setup is wrong, or the speakers aren’t a good enough match for the room. Also, some rooms are like an enclosed reverberant box, the worst case scenario, and the smaller it is and the bigger your speakers, the worse things can get, requiring much treatment.

[@davidfromamerica1871]

You bought the system and didn’t know how to use it. It’s your fault. The manufacturer takes no responsibility.

[@davidfromamerica1871]

Or just buy headphones and forget about the room treatments..😳🙄😀👍 People are becoming financially lazy..🤗

[@RobertoAlcantara]

I have great headphones and I can guarantee: no way. If you think this you never listened a really good stereo setup.

[@davidfromamerica1871]

@@RobertoAlcantara Of course I have. That is not the point. Times are changing in the wind. I have witnessed a lot of changes in my 73 years on this over crowded rock. I was just thinking about my younger day’s of my youth listening to AM radio. The best radio entertainment in its day, now that is vintage listening. The days of 45’s and 78’s all in mono. Now we have AI knocking on the back door sneaking in. The Actors Guild and screenwriters are ringing the alarm bell. The winds of change start with a gentle breeze at first.

[@lsucet]

Regardless of how good headphones can be, and I know there are some good ones out there, no it is not the same. To each its on. So many here and all over the Internet, they play the game of them knowing how a good and proper setup system sounds. Maybe I am one of them, you never know. 😊 But for sure I can't see how headphones can give you the immersion of a good stereo system. When it has its place for those with limitations, or, for those that like them due to xxx reasons, no it is not the same.

[@alex_stanley]

I have two pairs of Empire Ears custom IEMs and a Chord Mojo 2 to drive them, and I dearly love the head-fi listening experience, but it completely lacks the visceral element you get with loudspeakers. Totally different experience.

[@davidfromamerica1871]

@@lsucet You have to share your music with the neighborhood.😀👍🤗😎❤️😘🥰😍 Yes I get it. A bad ass system blasting the music you can feel in your bones..Been there done that. Now in my old age don’t want to upset the neighbors. They all have semi automatic weapons..😀 kzbin.info/www/bejne/a3bFmoWIpcaMeJY