Tone King Sky King | Part 3: Almost Done

[@e.r.559am7]

I know exactly nothing about electronics yet find your vids to be completely enjoyable. A+

[@Henni63]

Good luck, we're all counting on you!

[@8sigreg]

It’s sad that they’re not paying attention to the tube bases and the bear traps. I think that’s the new ownership, because Bartel was very specific about what tube types to use when he was in charge.

[@michaelvarty-brownstein3977]

Leslie Nielsen was a nice touch... I laughed out loud... Thanks

[@joyoffilming9500]

Great in-depth repair review with lots of great comments on circuitry design and physical layout - as an engineer in electronics and computers I highly appreciate that kind of fingerpointing at little but unwanted flaws. And, PUH, just bought a Tone King Falcon Grande - hope this is made better - still, it is very clean and no noise at all.

[@PrinceOfGenovia]

Hey man I’m considering the falcon grande - any update on the amp’s construction quality?

[@joyoffilming9500]

@@PrinceOfGenovia Seems that ToneKing made some improvements. Especially, the mechanical tube holders are much better, compared to the video. I am very pleased with the sound of the amp. there is only one little downside: there is no effects loop in this amp. Everything apart from that is awesome!

[@mattchase3153]

FWIW a new Sky King I checked out here in Australia yesterday did not have the wafer based output tubes.

[@danielmargolis3210]

My friend has a recent Tone King that sounds great with his Eric Johnson Strat.

[@ExitThirteen]

"And don't call me Shirley!" 😆

[@mattg082]

So just wanted to put this here…finally got mine back from a tech. He said the components and everything is top notch, amp sounds beautiful. However, all the issues were because everything that could be loose was. He had to tighten everything on the amp. He also had to put some felt padding on front of speaker. The only thing really off here from factory outside loose parts, was the glue for the back panel dried out. So it was vibrating like crazy. He had to spend 2hrs scraping off the old glue, and reapply new. That was the only physical thing really done. After that the amp was silent, my tubes that would buzz now work right, reverb is silent. Essentially he said the board was great, components great…but he was very surprised how loose everything was from the factory, and the choice of glue used and applied to back panel. It had the wafer based tubes, which I replaced with TAD 6l6 WGC like here.

[@mattchase3153]

The Tone Kings I have played (and the one I own) have such a low noise floor that I have frequently walked out of the room and left them on accidentally, or have only noticed they are on when I turn out the light. This and the low clean head room makes me think there is something else going on with this amp. My Imperial Mk ii stays clean with buckers up to about 11:00 but doesn't overdrive like that until 2:00 or so. I don't have much experience with Sky Kings but I thought they were a louder/cleaner version of the Imperial.

[@PsionicAudio]

I have the Sky King schematic. It’s working exactly as designed. This is the opposite of louder cleaner Imperial.

[@mattchase3153]

@@PsionicAudio Ah, ok. Good to know. The Imperial clean channel has headroom exactly as you would expect from a Deluxe style amp.

[@mattg082]

Same experience with Imperial MK2..but the Sky King is not the same amp. It’s rather noisy, over heats fast and I experienced so many issues I ran back to an Imperial MK2. There’s a reason you see a lot of Imperial MK2 and hardly a bad review. The Sky Kings are built way different, and have been modified. They are very noisy, can be prone to issues depending on what parts they are using and a bit dodgy. The Imperial seems to be consistent and their flagship amp. So that one from my experience is pretty safe. The headroom also seems to be a bit better, and the noise floor a lot lower. I think sense it’s a more popular amp it may get more attention I dunno. But all those KZbinrs got to pick any free Tone King, and they didn’t go with the most expensive? They usually went with the Imperial combo or the stack…I think I know now why that is. I praise the Imperial MK2 all day. But can’t say much about the Sky King…I reported all my findings to BAD directly…they probably hate me lol. But I was just trying to be honest and get help with my posts on the internet. I probably blew them up with my posts, but still praised the Imperial and own one!

[@im247frogs]

I just recapped a 1970 Bassman that came in with those type of 5881's. Looks like someone used the Ronco Bottle And Jar Cutter on them.

[@-DILLIGAF]

Hey Lyle, thank you for this channel. The best. Have you checked out Mark Bartel's (Tone King's originator) Bartel Amplification yet? A true "renaissance craftsman" treating & tuning his own cabinets (i.e., like a fine tuned/crafted instrument), hand molding his own control knobs, silk screening his own control panels, etc. Ridiculous attention to detail and an unwavering quest for perfection in his amplifiers as an instrument. He borderlines insanity in pursuit of perfection.

[@PsionicAudio]

Thanks man! I have, and Mark's work now is sublime.

[@-DILLIGAF]

My original (Mark Bartel) Tone King shipped with TAD power and carefully selected preamp tubes (all testing strong and no microphonics). After acquisition of TK, Boutique Amplification Distribution (BAD = doing amps for the likes of Friedman, Soldano, Morgan, Synergy, Bogner, et. al.) I experienced production "changes" that I didn't see in Mark's builds. Having owned multiple early versions of Mark's TK amps before being acquired by BAD, I can attest to these changes. Not to say BAD is not doing a great job but, they appear to have altered some of Mark's original components/designs (in some amps, i.e. Sky King) with showingly less attention to detail in favor of larger scale production. With that said, I have dealt with BAD with other various things such as a missing footswitch for a Friedmen and a custom Tweed cabinet I had made and they did an outstanding job taking good care of me with both of those. Mark's just in a league of his own.

[@dimbulb5549]

Interesting, Dilligaf -- seeing that you've got experience with both BAD and pre-BAD Tone Kings, do you know for a fact that BAD has done re-designs of Mark Bartel's earlier PC boards? Or have made substantial changes in parts selection? It sounds like you've interacted a few times with BAD, is that something you could ask one of their engineers over there? I've got a Nov 2016 Sky King build by Premier Builders Guild up north of San Francisco, before construction moved south to BAD, so I'm hoping it's old enough not to have the problems we see in this video. What were the approximate dates of your Tone King amps, and do you have additional impressions you'd be comfortable sharing? -- NEVERMIND for now on addl impressions, I just found some comments you made on other Sky King posts and am digesting them now

[@-DILLIGAF]

@@dimbulb5549 Yes, for a fact. I've looked inside the chassis, side by side. However, after re-reading my post I think it could be interpreted a little "harsher" than I meant (although I stand by my convictions). I've owned: - Original Imperial MKI - 20th Anni. Imperial - Imperial MKII - Two Continentals - Royalist head - Meteor - Skyking Three of those were B.A.D. Tone Kings and the rest Bartel (possibly a few PBG?) For instance, I've owned an original Imperial and then bought a 20th Anniversary and then the MKII intending to replace the original for the new attenuator. I sold them as the original sounded much better to my ear. I used the same exact tubes and speakers too, so it was a fair assessment. Given their excellent customer service, I bet you could call B.A.D. and get confirmation on the changes straight from the source. Most of the changes I observed were "minor". I also noticed finer detail production stuff like lesser grade tube sockets, tolex coming unglued from back panels, debris underneath the toilex causing bumps & bubbles, wood not being routed as nicely where you could see uneven contours and voids in ply under tolex (probably could have used wood filler) etc. Attention to detail seemed sacrificed for larger scale production. At least in my side by side comparisons. I wouldn't freak out over it though. I think BAD is a great company and does a fine job with excellent customer service. They just don't appear to exhibit the same attention to detail that I became accustomed to with Mark's builds in my personal opinion & experience.

[@dimbulb5549]

@@-DILLIGAF thx for the addl feedback, dilligaf How to you like the Royalist?

[@-DILLIGAF]

@@dimbulb5549 Funny you should ask. It had something rattling inside when I got it (Reverb). One day it made a POP, started smoking and had an electrical fire 🔥 inside (not a bad tube). FOR REAL. Luckily Reverb refunded me. I just kept my Marshall JTM45 reissue which I preferred for 1/2 the price and moved on. In my heart I'd like to believe that had Mark built that amp that would never had happened. I really feel like I'm "thrashing" builders post Mark Bartel building them but, I don't mean to. I'm simply just sharing my personal experience(s) although I do feel kinda bad putting it on blast in public domain as I believe many of these builders are great people with great business models that provide a lot of us with good quality gear and products.

[@grandudetonesnob7107]

"Can't be too particular about everything"?... I scoff at your audacity in such a statement!😉

[@DornAndGrant]

Shirley ❤️

[@gringopig]

What is it with Tone King and 'db'. It's dB!

[@sgt.grinch3299]

Nice. Don’t call me Shirley.

[@jerrymcgeorge4117]

😂

[@vanguard9067]

Roger!

[@camielkotte]

I see a lot of B stock of this amp on Thomann website here in Europe. Now , I was interested until I saw these series. And the fact they give a 50€ discount on b stock isn't really a strong motivator to try ones luck. I ll keep saving for a Magnatone ... Some day...

[@genetomblin2883]

The 10 watt resistors should have been on some type of stand offs to get the head away from the board. Possibly then there would be a place for a cap. Apparently the people who are doing the design work on these amps never worked on a late 60s TV set where paper phenolic circuit board was ofter used with vacuum tubes. The board char and trace lifting that plagued these sets was a good object lesson in just how not to build vacuum tube electronics. Never mind the high voltage sections where really bad things happened.

[@williambock1821]

Those 10 watt resistors are weird. I had a 10 watt crack from heat where a 5 watt version held up. Both were Xicons from AES. THE 5 got hot and turned the lettering white which is why I changed it to a ten watt but the ten cracked where the 5 didn’t. I was using it to drop B+ temporarily until I got the components for a VVR in. Maybe it was already cracked inside ,Idk. 🤷‍♂️

[@GlasVelo]

There's trouble in the cockpit..... What is it?..... It's the small room where the pilot sits but that's not important right now.

[@KentBuchla]

Shirley, you can’t be serious.

[@chrisdiceart]

Did that amp come out during the "Tube Crisis" last year? Maybe the choice was to ship with those tubes or not ship? Just wondering if BAD deserves the benefit of the doubt here?

[@PsionicAudio]

Can’t say. I can say that if they had been forced to use the coin base 5881s they could have removed the bear traps easily. It’s a matter of knowing/caring.

[@stevelark9840]

The transformer date code is from 2018 so unless they used old transformers for this build, it was made before the "tube crisis."

[@stevehead365]

Fair enough but there are easily availlable alternatives to the 'bear traps'.(for very small bears).

[@75YBA]

How odd that it does😢have a clean channel.

[@OrbisonTributeArtist]

I am not an electrical engineering type of dude, but I find your videos quite compelling. However, it makes me afraid to buy any amps. They all seem to have some issues. Why pay top dollar for an amp that needs to be serviced immediately out of the box? I think I will just buy a Fender, which sounds amazing, and once the cheap caps fail, send it in to be repaired. It seems to be the least expensive way to get the tones I want. Buying a boutique that has even worse issues doesn't seem tenable. Love your videos, Lyle!

[@dimbulb5549]

04:19 "The amp doesn't have a lot of clean headroom ... even on the rhythm channel ... if I turn it up to 9 o'clock, here comes the overdrive" -- I don't understand how you can form an opinion of the amp's clean headroom with that rhythm channel attenuator set to less than half open (which is staring us right in the face) -- what am I missing?

[@PsionicAudio]

I tested it all at full volume no attenuation first. Then demonstrated with the attenuation on so as not to clip the lav mic. Made no difference to the *preamp* headroom. And I would hope after 900+ videos to have earned a little trust. Or at least benefit of the doubt.

[@dimbulb5549]

@@PsionicAudio well you certainly have my trust, I was just going by what was said and shown on the video. sorry to have offended

[@PsionicAudio]

No worries. I wasn’t offended. Hard to find the sweet spot for conveying information in these. If I overexplain the videos become boring/insulting to viewers. Maybe I underexplained here.

[@mattg082]

Dude it’s loud..went through 3 of these recently and all went back. I mostly had tranny issues. The longer they stayed on the louder the buzz…at one point my last one started sounding like an 8 bit Nintendo and bitcrusher noise…I turned it off fast and returned. Never had this issue with Imperial MK2, and one night accidentally left it on all night. The Sky King is just not built the same.. my experience thinks there is some type of flaw in parts used recently sourced, and some of the build choices. The Imperial MK2 is a much safer choice. Big reason you see a lot of them, with no bad reviews online. I just am finally seeing people speak up on the Sky King. And found some old threads from 2021 pointing to the Transformer being dodgy as well. It was a crazy experience I had to say the least.

[@DamonBates]

thanks for this. been wondering what you've encountered with Imperial MK II s. Just checked the bear traps on my tubes and they are fine. Had it for several years now. Coming from a '96 HRD I really like the amp....not surprisingly I suppose...but wondered if you've run into issues with them. TIA

[@PsionicAudio]

I've only had the Bartel era Imperials in, not the BAD ones. Sorry, no opinion.

[@shckltnebay]

Wont it have more headroom if the attenuation is all the way off?

[@PsionicAudio]

No.

[@mattg082]

So I’ve tried both this and the Imperial MK2. Both made by bad and not Mark. I will tell you now they both break up on a Les Paul around volume 3. The Sky King is 35w so of course it’s louder at 3. But both break up rather early for me. I found using GE Nos 5751 grey plates rated at 70%, instead of 100% helped here. Especially with the Imperial MK2. Tamed it a bit and had more fiber tune on the volume up to 4ish. I play a dirty amp at break up, and that’s one reason I do like these amps. I thought at first I wanted a really clean head room amp. But then I loved a bit of natural break up..and would have to crank some amps. I tried the new Fender Custom Pro Reverb and it would break up around 5. So about 2 levels up more. However I will say these amps are damn loud! If recording with attenuation fully open. You can set to 3 and based on of your guitar is at 7 or 10 will determine a little early breakup. I roll my guitar to 7, and usually set to 3-5 and fare well with clean headroom with the GE 5751 V1 swap. Breakup is nice as I run a Morning Glory almost always on any way at low volumes. I wouldn’t say these amps have headroom for clean Jazz past 3 unless single coils and volume down…or tube rolling. For Indie rock and rock blues they work very well and sound great! Take pedals very very well.

[@shckltnebay]

@@mattg082 I think im right and Lyle misunderstood me?

[@mattg082]

@@shckltnebay well also there’s the Ultralinear mode on the back that wasn’t talked about. Research those types of amps. Mainly in the 70s and 80s they were around. The Sun model T was one, and also Kurt Cobain used a Twin Reverb Ultralinear, on his acoustic for unplugged and on Inutero. He was as introduced to this amp by Steve Albini a hifi junkie for perfection. So Kurt got one during that time period. So you will get some break up in pentode, and pickups can matter. However Ultralinear mode offers a lot of head room, hifi sound and takes that sharp edge off, and sounds elastic. You can crank the Ultralinear mode up on this amp for lots louder clean headroom as well. You’ll lose the sharp top end, it’ll be more round and squishy. But it will offer more headroom way over 3-4 here. In pentode mode this amp starts to break up around 3 a bit on Humbuckers. And I explained the rest…if you set Ultralinear mode, it’s very round and stretchy, take the edge off and offers a crap ton of head room. You could play an acoustic guitar through that or any pedal, preamp or whatever. There a lot here to offer that wasn’t gone over in depth. As he was mainly fixing the amp, had it set in pentode and that was it. For a long time, and still now the trend was getting natural tube break up at bar room levels which these amps aim at. Pentode does that, and and it’s guitar pickup, and volume dependent as well as the wattage. Ultralinear mode on this amp changes this and was something Fender and many others were after…less break up and higher head room. So the Sky King if set to Ultralinear mode, does have a leg up with that mode over pentode traditional amps. It’s very clean and you can crank it loud.

[@shckltnebay]

@@mattg082 I may get one at some point but pretty happy with my Princeton Reverbs and little known Champ IIs

[@sdy30]

I’ve just bought one of these amps. Going to check the valves (tubes if you’re in the US!). If I do have to replace them, which brand would you recommend?

[@mattg082]

I bought one recently as well. I had to get an exchange. Well, the new exchange came with same tubes…but surprise they did have the plastic on them! Just depends when the amp was made. But back to what you ask..I’m going with TAD 6L6 like the ones this video shows he put in. I’ve used them in super Reverbs and like them a lot. Usually around $80 for a pair online. I also sometimes put in GE Nos 5751 grey plate in V1. Lowers noise floor a bit. But for me it’s good to have more volume control and recording.

[@Len0n0]

Great Video as per usual, I have s question! I own the Sky King Bartel era hand-wired, I love the amp but it runs extremely hot, after half an hour of playing when turning off the amp the switch is very hot to the touch. The amp sounds good and no noticeable hum, it does some clicking from time to time but that clicking does not affect the sound. Som in wondering if it's normal for the amp to run that hot? Thank you!

[@dimbulb5549]

I've got a Nov 2016 build when they were being built up north of San Franciso Bay at Premier Builders Guild. It runs hot, as you say. I've gigged it weekly since 2016 and usually just place an 8-inch floor fan behind it to circulate air thru the back of the cab. No sense any amp being run hotter than necessary.

[@ThomasJackMoore]

So... what amps would actually recommend?

[@PerishableDave]

Would really appreciate it if Lyle could do a best amps between $1000-2000 and $2000-3000

[@bobjones7082]

What the hell’s a man doing with a bobby pin. In space?…. At this hour?

[@surfthejapstrat7010]

Lyle, I have recently tried out a time king imperial. I loved the tone of the amp but I noticed if I had lead channel attenuated on the back and while playing, switched back to the clean, it got a huge momentary rush of signal through the reverb tank. Is this a design flaw and fixable or an issue with that particular example? I’ll preface this by saying I thought the reverb was a bit lacking in depth except that brief second when changing channels. Thanks in advance

[@garygratzer9670]

That was not Mark Bartel! Poor decision of the new owners of a great design. This is all a bit confusing to me. I have an early hand wired version when Mark was at the helm and don’t experience any of these caveats. Lyle is my guru as Mark and a few other builders are in my short list of exceptional designers.

[@PsionicAudio]

Mark is fantastic and would never have made any of these mistakes. And thanks.

[@matthewf1979]

Finally got around to sending you pictures of my new ES-335. I had to change a few things, like the nylon saddles and “Alnico III” magnets but I do that to all of my guitars. Just a little personalized touch to make it mine. Check your company email.

[@PsionicAudio]

Noice!

[@ctcards2636]

This amp would be useless to me. I need a clean channel ! lol. And i use humbuckers more than Single coils. Good to know. I have not sat down and tried one of these amps.

[@ForeverDownByLaw]

Just an observation, is the speaker 16 ohms? It appeared that you had the amp set to 16 ohms.

[@PsionicAudio]

It is and thus I did.

[@ForeverDownByLaw]

@@PsionicAudio I wouldn't think otherwise, just thought that it having a 16 ohm speaker a bit unusual.

[@DemonKingOFFICIAL]

Man. Aren’t they like really expensive amps too?

[@jamesf2918]

Yep... 🤦🏻‍♂️

[@ditchgator1]

Are all Sky Kings this way.?

[@PsionicAudio]

The whole point of mass production is that they should all be built the same, for better or for worse.

[@goodun2974]

@@PsionicAudio , this is somewhat of a tangent, but the concept of identical and interchangeable parts (mechanical parts, anyway) was supposed to be a hallmark of the Industrial Revolution (thanks to Eli Whitney), but now we have electronic devices such as I-phones that are electronically serialized and "brick" themselves if you try to swap a battery or screen from one phone to another, unless you're an "authorized" servicer. For many types of devices there's no longer such a thing as a "parts unit", and the right to repair your own stuff has become a hotly-contested courtroom issue. I have to wonder if amp and effects-processing manufacturers will eventually be building their digital-based products the same way, where you can't just swap out or recap/repair a board at component level without having to reload proprietary, non open-source software into it, so as to discourage non factory-aligned repair techs.

[@stringlocker]

Assembled in the USA seems vague to me.

[@ditchgator1]

@@PsionicAudio Thank you. Have you had the pleasure to see inside of other amps in this manufacturers line? And if so...are there better built offerings? 😎👍❤🖖

[@dimbulb5549]

@@stringlocker Commerce, California - in the Los Angeles urban sprawl

[@nacho-in6ow]

Too much issues for such an expensive amp

[@antoonhermans8953]

yep , i was thinking the same thing

[@stringlocker]

Assembled in the USA. What does that mean exactly.

[@mattg082]

It is…I’ve gone through 3 now all with noise issues always in the reverb. And then each has a radon buzz that appears on the Pentode or Ultralinear. Some were so bad it sounded like a fog horn. I can’t pack this thing up soon enough and get a refund. At this price point I can’t believe how careless the issues are. It should be a big priority for them. It just doesn’t seem like they are focused on this amp. It sucks to say that…the Imperial MK2s I’ve haven’t had issues. But these amps have def taken a turn for the worse. I see nothing but problems ahead, and bad resale value if I keep it. I tried for months and I’ve given up

[@bm7760]

New owner short-cuts. It's a shame. You think you're buying a top-quality piece of kit but it's all based on marketing and trust. I swear you're better to just buy a regular Fender 68 something or other. A fraction of the price, sound great, replaceable.

[@kesamek8537]

Dumb King. Get the good designers back and make good amps please, for the money asked they should be flawless paragon tier majesty.

[@raivkka4313]

Pretty disappointed with the under the hood look of this amp and the Magnatone. These are cheap amps and would have expected better.

[@goodun2974]

Raivkka, "these are *not* cheap amps"; I suspect you made a typographical error.

[@douglascrawford4791]

Cheap

[@nicholasgolubov7791]

Mine needs repair too. Please answer my email!

[@mattg082]

What’s wrong with yours? I’m just asking because I’ve had so many issues with Tone King recently. It’s just sad, because it’s hard to find a comparable new built amp that ticks all these boxes for me.

[@nicholasgolubov7791]

@@mattg082 It cuts out (dirty channel) after about 20 min of continuous playing. When this happens, it emits very little, to no sound at all. I have changed every tube in the amp and the problem still persists. The back of the amp's chassis gets quite hot to the touch also. I believe I recall this failure happening with the clean channel once at the same time the dirty channel failed. If the amp is turned off and allowed to cool, It will return to normal function until it gets tired and fails again.

[@nicholasgolubov7791]

@@mattg082 I have also sent 2 emails about this issue to Psionic this week but I have not received a response yet.

[@mattg082]

@@nicholasgolubov7791 have you reached out to Tone King/Bad? I had an issue where it overheated 2hrs of playing…and started to cut out. Huge hum came over it in Ultralinear and I turned it off. Two days later I turned it on, and a power tube blew. I think these amps really have to be in a very cool environment, or in a very open room away from the wall. They really need the ventilation imo. If you have contacted Tone King…please let me know what they say. Not optimal, but does it still do it if you place it in an open room, and say a box fan behind it? I find it weird the fuse hasn’t blown first as a safety precaution. Usually sound dropping in and out, can be a big sign of power tube failure or something in that area. But man these amps do sound damn good when it’s all going right. Big reason I kept trying to get it fixed and everything right. Was hard to find an amp that sounded and tick all these boxes. Without going vintage or spending 3.8k on a Milkman amp or something. They are expensive, but in my search for a similar amp, it’s actual cheaper than the competition like Milkman or Two Rock. Carr Rambler is in the same price range though at a lower wattage. Mine main issues with what I had was hum when all volume was at 0. It would get louder as the amp was on. It did not matter what house and used all good grounds. I really feel the Sky Kings are like..if you get a good one you do. If you get a bad one you get a project. Some seem to get lucky and no issues, others have massive issues. I feel the box and how they end up in transport may have a big reason did that..I’ve had 2 come in that look like they came from a third world country and threw off the back of a truck. One box had a Foot of a tare on the box! You could see inside it, and UPS just taped it up! I suggest ordering from the store, to get them to check the amp for an hour, double or triple box that thing and overnight air it lol. Those boxes they use do not stand a chance against UPS or fed ex!

[@nicholasgolubov7791]

@@mattg082 I did speak to someone at Tone King, although I had serious doubts about his qualifications to provide tech support. He said it sounded like a tube issue. I changed every tube in the amp and still have the same problem. I am going to take it to an amp service shop in my area this week and see what they say. The guy that hosts this page hasn't responded to any of my emails.