Toxic Masculinity Debate (2019 Rerun)

[Rerun] Dr. Kirk and Humberto discuss toxic masculinity
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February 1, 2019
The Psychology In Seattle Podcast ®
Trigger Warning: This episode may include topics such as assault, trauma, and discrimination. If necessary, listeners are encouraged to refrain from listening and care for their safety and well-being.
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[@chelseawelter2714]

Yeeeaaaah when a random man approaches me on the street, let alone gets up and follows me after I walk by, I do NOT get a good feeling. Yikes.

[@vilepile]

Yup and they don't leave after the first "No thanks or not interested". The same ones that do that are the ones who 🍇

[@N0regrets1]

Man, I hope Humberto has learned to listen more since 2019. That first debate, they kept running in circles: Kirk “many women say this makes them uncomfortable and they usually don’t like it”, Humberto (totally ignores what Kirk said) “ but why can’t men do this?!” Also, when Kirk said that it’s about time/place and guys should wait until a bar or something, Humberto says that’s equating women to an “object” or what “peg”. But no one mentioned *at all* that approaching a woman based on her attractiveness is doing *exactly that*. He doesn’t know that woman, or even if she has a personality that he likes at all. It’s all about her looks! That’s another reason why women usually don’t like being approached. It can be completely shallow. On another note, when Humberto talks about cultural differences, I know that when I travelled to Argentina (wheee the cat calling was constant, gross, and sometimes very scary), women there usually did *not* like it at all. Last point - it was also brought up that one of Humberto’s friend’s has picked up a few women on the street before. But there was no push back about *why* the women could have said yes. Maybe she was interested *or* maybe she was scared. Many women either freeze or comply when approached by a person they are worried could cause them harm. Saying yes to a date then will placate the man, and let the woman get out of the situation she feels is unsafe. This is a true fact that does happen. I’m sure the friend probably actually went on a date or two, but I doubt many actually meant up with him. Getting a number does not equate success to the process. Anyways - Has Humberto actually spoken to women or is this all conjecture and what he “has heard” from others or the internet. I think debates like this would do better if there was a female perspective, just like a male perspective is needed for talks about masculinity. To understand *why* women don’t like something, go directly to the source. *rant over*

[@cramp4221]

This is everything I was thinking ❤

[@marie4_4]

Yeah, I don't know if I can finish this one. I'm stressed. Men should have the right to approach women in the street because she's potentially perfect and you'll never meet her again? And then dismissing the fact that she'll likely not appreciate that because we also need to listen to what men want in that instance? What a wild take.

[@caxsmith]

Context in approach matters. Approaching someone in a self-selected group like a running club is different than some rando on the street.

[@merelkeldrima6845]

In the commercial you were talking about the man who approaches the woman says “sweetie” which is patronizing.

[@Becsartisticvoid]

At bars and clubs it’s not that men approach us that’s the issue. It’s the fact they won’t leave us alone after we reject them. I never get mad when I’m out with my girls and want to just dance with them and a man shoots his shot. Good for him honestly! AS LONG AS HE LEAVES AFTER I SAY NO.

[@janedashwood2018]

Yeah, I think at that point, he's been humiliated in front of his friends, so he's trying desperately to save face. That is more important to him than the woman's feelings.

[@RaymondJiang444]

It feels like the first part of this episode basically boils down to rejection and how men prepare for and handle it. There's always going to be caveats, anomalies, and exceptions to every plausible scenario and statistical probability, but teaching men how to handle rejection as it pertains to sexual and romantic endeavors seems like a more worthwhile conversation to have and if done right, provides more agency to men over their own emotions and reactions. And I'm not just talking about the women in these situations turning men down when they approach them on the street, but also other men that intervene in the situation to let the guy approaching her know what they're doing isn't cool, which seems to be the message Gillette was trying to get across. While Dr. Honda's explanation that it's not about not doing it at all, but considering the probability that it may not work out the way you hope it will does put a fairly good job of putting things into perspective, few regular people have that tact or the ability to articulate it in the moment when they see people doing things they don't like and think are wrong. Personally while the ad overall didn't piss me off like it might have for some, it did kind of reinforce the idea of certain traditional masculine constructs, even the ones that may be good like intervening in a situation where there's a high chance that another man might sexually harass a woman are 'ideal' and 'superior.' In all likelihood, that probably wasn't their intention, but it's undeniable that even within aspects of traditional masculinity that we should rationally consider as 'good' are often marketed as THE ideals for being a masculine man. Like with the sexual harassment example, intervening in a situation where a woman is likely to be bothered or harassed can be seen as a man fulfilling his duties as a superhero or protector of women just as much as him performing a pro-feminist act. Being a superhero and protector are generally speaking, good things to be, but they often fall under the realm of _hegemonic_ masculinity, or the type of masculinity that gets privileged and rewarded the most in society, whether it's toxic or not.

[@caxsmith]

@@RaymondJiang444 good insights.

[@harmoni2479]

“Uniquely interesting” - what is uniquely interesting about her, Humberto? You know absolutely nothing about her except for her body. Lol

[@harmoni2479]

12:20 for context

[@imperialdrift541]

Are you sure you can’t think of anything that might be uniquely interesting on someone aside from their body?

[@harmoni2479]

@imperialdrift541 In the scenario given, they literally talked only about how attractive the woman was and said that was the reason for pursuing her. Then, Humberto turned around and said "uniquely interesting" as if there was some deeper connection apart from attraction.

[@Lanetaskate]

Humberto really missed the point here. Completely inconsiderate of women and how unsafe it feels when you are minding your business and a man whose intentions you have no knowledge of approaches you and then expects to be entitled to your time. If I’m walking down the street, I really don’t want to be stopped to be spoken to and hear whatever they have to say. I don’t care if it’s an attractive man or not. A random stranger approaching me on the street is scary. Period end of sentence.

[@FishareFriendsNotFood972]

Sometimes this topic feels like the debate that will never, ever end.....

[@user-rf6gq8vz5v]

It’s selfish to be like : I am going to approach this women now, even if she probably doesn’t want it. If you don’t get a cue to approach, do not do it. Men often approach women who would never be interested in them, just to shoot their shot.

[@mielimedina3146]

Oh wow, Humberto get it together! Are you on purpose missing the point? Try listening with empathy and putting yourself in someone else’s shoes!

[@Arianne91]

Fascinating!

[@Rebecca-gc9gw]

As a woman, Tinder is for sleazebags and I am 47. It’s nothing but if you want casual hookups.women would be more receptive the more attractive you are and have a stable income. If you have these two things then it is more likely you can approach a woman anywhere you are.

[@caxsmith]

@@Rebecca-gc9gw will disagree here. Sleazebags can also be good-looking and have jobs. And how would a woman know of a man that approached her on the street has a stable job?

[@EvilWeiRamirez]

Wow this conversation is really not helpful in any way

[@tomburns5231]

After 15min, Kirk is insufferable in this.

[@vilepile]

Honestly from the beginning he is. He is just not listening. Maybe he's trying to justify this behaviour because he does this himself.

[@RaymondJiang444]

@@vilepile Are you talking about Dr. Honda or Berto?

[@deadfullyawesome]

@@vilepilethe fact that Dr’Kirk said “men are the privileged class” in reference to dating? This just shows how ignorant he can be sometimes. If a man had this amount of disproportional attention when it came to indeed and hiring. Say the female applied for 100 jobs and got 0-1 message back but the man got 1000+job offers I couldn’t be so arrogant to say”women are the priveledged class” He has this smugness sometimes when he talks about men that’s insufferable.

[@RaymondJiang444]

@@deadfullyawesome He was saying that men generally don't have to worry about being approached or hit on while walking down the street, at the grocery store, or any place where they're just going about their normal life and are less likely to be in a frame of mind to want to entertain any sexual or romantic initiatives, let alone seek it out themselves. And in addition to that, the possible consequences that could come about if they do reject the man that approached them.

[@RaymondJiang444]

@@deadfullyawesome He's saying that men generally don't have to worry about being approached or hit on by men while walking down the street, at the grocery store, or any environment where it's less likely that they'll be in a frame of mind to entertain any s*xual or romantic advances, let alone seek it out themselves. Not that men are necessarily better off when it comes to dating in all aspects.

[@janedashwood2018]

I'm only at minute 12:30 of the video, and I think Berto's argument about "women aren't interchangeable" doesn't fly for the brief clip of the man walking after a woman down the street. Yes, human beings are unique, but he is only interested in this particular woman because of her appearance. He (and any other man who acts like this) knows pretty much zero about a stranger in a public place. I'm not a 10 and never have been. But whenever I was approached in public when I was young and single, it was by a guy 10-30 years older than me who would say something stupid like, "Smile!" It was usually when I was preoccupied and alone, without a wing woman. I never, ever struck up a conversation with these guys. I never felt threatened in these situations, just annoyed. The one time that I felt truly scared was when I was out jogging on a major street in a strange city. I was on work travel, a married mom in my late 30s, and a car full of young men not only cat called me, but started following me, even when I took obvious turns and twists to evade them. I thought I was going to get beaten and raped. And it was broad daylight, probably late afternoon. Not one person helped me. These guys weren't trying to get my number. I think they enjoyed me being afraid. If a guy wants to genuinely meet women, the time and place to do it is at a social gathering space, like a bar or club. Maybe a sporting event or the beach, when there are plenty of people around. Women think about safety. I've been hit on in bars by strangers when I was on work travel, and the fact that I was in a crowed public place made me feel relatively safe.