Push/Fold Poker Quiz: ICM vs. Chip EV Part 1/2

[@michelemeriggi]

It would be better if you explain what are the criterias for ICM pressure rather than saying things like medium/low/high/quite high etc. These are words that sound subjective to me.

[@splitsuit]

That's totally fair. I'll ping Ben and see if I can get him to jump in here and shed some light on that =)

[@fundiver198]

Thats a great explanation Ben, and a great video series as well. Thanks for the good work!

[@fundiver198]

By the way your point about Villians, who are folding or calling to much, is really important. The charts show a lot of hands, which are very marginally +EV or -EV to shove, so with a lot of hands, intangibles like opponent reads will be the deciding factor. The ICM model also fail to take into the account the value of being able to apply ICM-pressure in future hands, if winning a flip gives us an above average stack. Which could give validity to being a bit more aggressive, than what the HRC calculator suggest. If on the other hand there are some really bad players at the table, who made it there due to pure luck, then the value of surviving obviously goes up, which could be a reason to play more conservatively. So while this is great stuff to have ingrained, the answer in poker is rarely as simply as just pulling out a chart.

[@kylewhitmore304]

maybe you should make your own video and do this

[@UncleJoeLITE]

5yrs later...ICM still does my head in, so I like this "Doug Polk-like" breaking it down into 5 ICM ranges. I tend to dumb it down to position & 3x ICM ranges: '~low', '~same' & 'high', based on relative chip stacks. 'None' is only a thing if I'm one of the monster stacks vs XXbb.

[@UncleJoeLITE]

5 years later and...80% because I folded the two [dissonant to me] ones. Gotta listen to those voices more!

[@bartvanderwel373]

This video is so good! I never thought about the 'pressure switch' that takes places whenever you're getting closer to the blinds, but it makes total sense. Thanks James & Ben for the free content!

[@Tell_It_Right]

Well, I got 90% my 1st try. However, I scored it based on experience not math. I want to understand WHY I should make certain moves instead of just intuitively knowing. TY for this video!!!

[@andrewboos-nm8os]

How do they accurately calculate the odds of a hand if a binary computer cant simulate true random?

[@AltumNovo]

Do these push fold programs account for folded hands in front making hands behind more likely to be strong hands?

[@love2play]

Appreciate all you do for us - TY

[@idonthavemonkey]

For the KJ hand, when stacks get shallow, shouldn't we also be thinking about our chances of finding a better spot?We're unlikely to have better cards next hand, and the blinds are going to eat 25% of our stack It's better to shove 6 chips with a 5% expected loss than 4.5 with a 5% edge.

[@VilleHyytiainenInvesting]

What makes betting so bad in tournaments instead shove? I feel like most people in my low stakes tournaments can't even find bet button.

[@TheSuperF21]

Can you explain why, at 9:30 , SnapShove tells us to not shove Q8s but shove J8s and lower ?

[@splitsuit]

You'll find oddities like this sometimes when using these kinds of tools. If I had to venture a guess, I would assume it's a domination thing

[@TheSuperF21]

That's the only thing I could think of. Thanks for your answer !

[@splitsuit]

Anytime =)

[@AndreasFroehliPoker]

TheSuperF21 proximity effect, cards close to each other overlap in equity and therefore J8s > Q8s sometimes

[@pokertrackercoachmanager9301]

Just Thanks

[@ryangomez1754]

Is ben of hendon mob? I went to check for some stats and couldnt find anything.

[@Ryanprovements]

nice one :D

[@splitsuit]

Cheers Ryan!

[@danielj1642]

These calculations don't take into account fixed algorithms like Partypoker.

[@RageReaperf]

Hello this is probably (and most certainly) the wrong place to ask this question but if anyone (80% of you) has too much time on their hands it'd be great if someone could give me a quick feedback on this hand. This is a 1/1€ live game at my local casino I am about 300BB deep and villain is 200BB deep. I limp UTG with AKo, another player limps behind and villains raises to 3€ button calls and I 3-bet to 15€, folds to villain and villain 4-bets to 42€ and I shove and get called by AA. How should I have played this differently or did I get coolered?

[@AndreasFroehliPoker]

Robocop33 if you limpraise and get 4bet, dont 5b jam 200bb with AK. Dont limp AK. It seems that you need some online experience to build your game from ground up.

[@RageReaperf]

Andreas Froehli Poker Thank you for your reply.

[@vivavaldez87]

Source: £1/2-£2/5 live player w/ 10y experience (6 full time/professional) AK is an open raise UTG, you want to make it 4-5x in a live full ring low stakes game when you're this deep, charge people for calling too much, in a £1/1 I'd even make it 6-7x if the game warrants it (i.e. people too sticky pre). However, let's go from your initial limp. The overcall could be anything and the small raise to 3x looks weak, as does the overcall. I like the backraise sizing, but I'm not a huge fan of the choice of hand/position to do it with. It's reasonable though. Anything from £15-21 is fine here, so you're a little on the small size. When the 4bet comes in, you've not invested much relative to your stack (200bb effective, let's not forget), so you can get away vs most £1/1 players. HOWEVER, if they're a maniac, I like a flat to try to connect or see a low/paired board and call at least one street, maybe even patiently fold. Shove doesn't accomplish much (even vs a maniac, unless they're drunk/super crazy, in which case fist bump and get it in with AJ before someone else takes their money). Maybe you fold out TT-JJ vs a normal player when you do this with AK, which is a pretty big win. Vs a nit, it's a pretty fine fold to the 4bet. I think the moral of the story is that an open raise is more solid to start the hand, you can flat the inevitable 3bet and go from there with far more defined ranges.

[@disisaz]

@@AndreasFroehliPoker You didn't actually say anything here ijs

[@oldirtysean00]

I think I have an interesting hand for you if you're interested. Where can I post it for you if you're interested?

[@splitsuit]

www.splitsuit.com/send =)

[@BrockPageProductions]

Joe Cada...top 10 tourney player in the world?

[@splitsuit]

He is damn solid =)

[@totomaster9841]

What is this actually telling me...? With the whole ICM thing being just overrated anyway, it's all just speculating basically.

[@splitsuit]

ICM is deeply mathematical - it's like the exact opposite of speculation.

[@totomaster9841]

@@splitsuit Now having been digging into the ICM thing more thoroughly I have to agree with you James. I'm just learning everyday :) Thanks for your reply.

[@splitsuit]

@@totomaster9841 Nice job Toto!

[@splitsuit]

Kevin w fair point.

[@Shooter11B]

How about we get back to using the tool between our ears and in our guts without all this overly complicated madness which is absolutely KILLING the game??

[@splitsuit]

This is the kind of work you do to train that tool between your ears =)

[@Shooter11B]

Honestly it can be, so I agree with you to some extent. But my objection to it is that the game is suffering from too much of it. When you have guys sitting at a table using a death stare on you, with computers and phones, running programs checking probabilities and graphs and talking to friends watching the game at home to read pocket cards of their opponents....well, that is not poker anymore. It is some Millennial Sci-Fi nightmare that will kill the game. The pendulum has swung too far kids.

[@splitsuit]

I see your point about the effect, but I disagree that software is the root cause. I think societal shifts, legal status of poker, and ways that card rooms allow streaming are having a bigger impact overall.

[@vivavaldez87]

Haters gonna hate, ROFLers gonna ROFL