Putting Harlow on the Underground

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Taking the Central Line a long way out of centre.
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[@JagoHazzard]

Go to ground.news/jago to spot media bias and make sure you’re getting the full story. Subscribe through my link to get 40% off the Vantage subscription this month only.

[@DeanStephen]

Ground News would be so much more useful if it didn’t perpetuate the false political left/right dichotomy and actually included the full range of political ideologies that can flavour the news, including independent, socialist, anarchist, monarchist, libertarian, green, etc. (few of which actually conform to the left-right spectrum).

[@williamwildcat]

1:38 says title text here, I think you forgor to finish 💀

[@williamwildcat]

I like the use of comic sans font at 4:43

[@laudermarauder]

Comment text here

[@winterwatson6437]

📌

[@youch85]

text

[@paulmiller591]

@@youch85 sub-title response

[@KevinTheCaravanner]

1:39 speechless. What is there to say about Harlow?

[@TheMusicalElitist]

Paragraph of text.

[@rogeremberson6464]

Harlow was hit by an earthquake in the 1970's. It caused £25million of improvements.

[@someonebald2022]

😄🤣

[@markhughes2556]

That's brilliant! I read a story about Jean Harlow meeting a Duchess (can't remember which one, but her first name was Margot) In an effort to make polite conversation, JH said, "Oh, the T is silent", to which Her Grace responded, "Yes, as in Harlow".

[@someonebald2022]

@@markhughes2556 Ooh, Mee-OWW!! 😆

[@stephenlee5929]

@@markhughes2556 Silent, like the P in swimming.

[@Shalott63]

@@markhughes2556 Margot Asquith, Countess of Oxford and Asquith. The conversation is not directly recorded, but references to it in gossip magazines etc. are known from as early as 1934. Most commentators agree it is certainly the sort of thing she would have said.

[@laudermarauder]

2:51 "So how do we get from Epping to Harlow?" Run!

[@aethellstan]

you wouldn't, but in the other direction it would be as fast as possible!

[@mistie710]

Personally, I'd use the A414.

[@FlixTV]

That was the perfect timing!

[@stuartmcconnachie]

@@aethellstan Might it not have been better to have put Harlow underground? 😉

[@faithlesshound5621]

I lived in Harlow 40 years ago. As a non-car owner it was difficult to get around that neck of the woods, especially to Epping, which was the nearest underground station. The Central Line went to Ongar then. The line had been meant to go as far as Chelmsford, but the war got in the way and the power station for the extension was never built, so trains on the Epping to Ongar section were said to run slowly at half voltage.

[@shrikelet]

Shout-out to the lad at 2:54 adding a sense of urgency to the video. Hope he made his connection.

[@emjayay]

Play it in .25 (with the sound off).

[@Jothamvvw]

Ah yes, *TITLE TEXT HERE* TITLE TEXT HERE

[@SilverScroll]

(skip a bit)

[@Pashizzle500]

As things stand, the central line is a little over 46 miles long

[@seanbonella]

Bad flag

[@Jothamvvw]

@@seanbonella well, what flag do you think it is?

[@SteveLego]

Yeah marvelous place, I’ve been there on summer vacation in 2026

[@Sam_Green____4114]

I was watching the Formula 1 build up for Monaco then I saw the notification for this ! This is way more interesting !

[@sgtgunfodder9263]

not to say it was far more action packed too.

[@who9387]

@Sam_Green____4114 - For interesting, watching paint dry runs F1 pretty close

[@winstonsmith2079]

Basildon; Bracknell; Crawley; Hatfield; Harlow; Hemel Hempstead; Stevenage and Welwyn Garden City and who could forget the new town of "Title Text Here" 😊 1:36

[@normanstevens4924]

Reply text here

[@RafaquaQuetta]

St Albans and Luton too and Dartford too eventually

[@Jaccident]

Time to finally get East Kilbride on the Tube Map.

[@markhughes2556]

Ugh! Bracknell!

[@katrinabryce]

@@Jaccident It was on the SPT Rail Map (Glasgow's equivalent) back when they still existed.

[@tomknight8639]

As a local to Harlow (living in the now-satellite town of Sawbridgeworth), I'm glad you mentioned this in a video (especially the most respectful slot of the Sunday noon video). I feel myself somewhat qualified to give my input on this topic, given I'm a major urban/transport planning fan and this has a local impact on me: Harlow isn't built naturally as like other towns, as you/Jago said it is a New Town, meaning that it was kind of built on farmland and incorporating existing villages. Netteswell Green, Tye Green, Great Parndon, Latton, Potter Street and of course the village of what is now called Old Harlow (the last two lie on the old A11). Because of the different than usual design, it means that there are large pockets of population, but broken by roads, or greenways, so they don't sprawl. While this is good for traffic, and for creating a closer sense of identity within the areas of the town, it means that on the whole Harlow is considerably more reliant on road transport as inter-district bus transport simply isn't possible, especially from the north and west, as buses terminate at the town centre and then radiate; if you want to go from Latton to Church Langley you either walk, cycle, or drive, and even the first two are a bit of an issue as the separated footpaths away from the road are a bit more scarce to the newer eastern developments. That's the second issue as well, that in the town centre of Harlow, there is a bus station, college, three decently sized shopping centres merged into one (so large there are two Greggs located within a five minute walk of one another, trust me I've timed it lol), and the Royal Mail depot. Nobody from the surrounding villages would actually head into Harlow Town centre by tube, as simply there is no need to. If you do your shopping in the centres it would be a hassle to take it on the Underground four stops to Theydon Bois, it's easier to drive into Harvey Centre, shop, and pay for your parking with your ton of presents. Indeed, actually leaving the town centre is also an issue for nearby residents, as a central ring road of dual carriageways surrounds the area, and of course these are greenways themselves so it takes a while to head to a suburb of desire. The third issue you talked about, which is speed, it takes a while to head into Central London, about 40 minutes to Liverpool Street on the Stansted Express, and that excludes the local services which other stations (such as my own and Harlow Mill) are reliant on. I know a fair few people who travel on buses from the likes of Ongar, North Weald, and especially Epping who travel north into Harlow on the 420 bus, walk the next ten minutes through the park and take the express to Liverpool Street, simply as it's quicker (especially if alighting at Tottenham Hale for the Victoria Line) than taking one single line. Of course, the town station has a major car park as well, and most of those either come from within or just outside the town. There's also the fourth issue, in which who would actually use the route? It makes sense that there would be some demand to head from say Latton into Loughton or Bank, but from the Town Centre and north of there (remember Harlow sits on the Stort River, which is the county boundary between Essex and Hertfordshire, hence why there is no development suddenly despite the rail station being so close (and also flood plains)), less people would be able to use the service, let alone enticed by it; of course there would also be areas in Harlow also unserved, and issue on it's own there. I don't really envision many people to use the service if it ever does go ahead, simply as there any suitable places to place stations within Harlow. If there was a major redevelopment plan which enticed people away from driving and more high-rise houses built then I'd say possibly, but sadly the underground I don't think would make major financial sense into extending into Harlow, even if Essex County Council were to foot the bill and subsidise the service. I'm glad you mentioned Crossrail 2 by the way, that makes considerably more sense for me in my opinion, as the West Anglia Main Line (which I suggest a video on by the way, it has some interesting history I think) runs along the Lea Valley, which is both very built up and is ripe for more housing which is so desperately needed. But getting back on point, if the tracks were to be quadrupled north of Meridian Water (a third track exists from that station presently anyway) up to Broxbourne at minimum, Bishop's Stortford ideally, that would provide an extremely frequent service not just to Harlow but to Hertford East, Stortford, almost definitely Stansted Airport and quite likely Cambridge as well. More people would use that service which heads straight into the city and beyond than the current format (Harlow Town presently gets six trains an hour, at odd times throughout the our), with Harlow Mill getting two, and most north of Stortford only receiving one. I think, rather than building a "new project which will make a decent dent of an impact", we should work with what we have, build upon it, and let it do the magic of being such a success it may even bring a necessity to build the Central to the town centre. Yeah, I kinda went a bit overboard on this video analysis lol, been kinda waiting a while on this one haha. Great video as every Jago, keep up the good work👍🏻

[@Skorpychan]

Given that it's Harlow, I'd say it's a good thing that the various areas can't spread. Containment can only be a good thing.

[@tomknight8639]

@@Skorpychan Average Church Langley commenter 😏

[@highpath4776]

Stevenage Got SuperBus / StevenageBus. Harlow got Dial-A-Ride Ford Transits for a Old Harlow are to new town centre public transport

[@highpath4776]

Most New Towns were designed not to be dependent on London - avoiding commuting back to London and making them more self sufficient for employment , education and residences ( as it was assumed london would get nuked,wheras the new towns looked like they had been nuked already )

[@phillee6993]

There always been ideas of running central line to Harlow terminating at potter street. Another idea I once heard was BR at the time was thinking created a new route to stansted airport to east of Harlow to run stansted trains via Stratford then use the old link to Woodford take over central line up to Epping across to Harlow then up to stansted. The central would run only to Woodford via Hainault.

[@charleswhitney3235]

Harlow and Broxborne stations both have quite interesting 50s/60s modernist designs that have held up well

[@Pesmog]

Agree, functionally as stations they work very well. I have never been sure about the aesthetic though.

[@paulwilkins2614]

“Harlow” is it me your looking for. Thanks, I spat my coffee out to that. Well played Sir, well played 😂

[@hakc97again]

3:20 i would rephrase that to "Few lines are as heated as the Central Line"

[@bingbong7316]

That was a great cartoon back in the day, successive road signs saying "Harlow", "Harlow" and "Who's Your Lady Friend?".

[@andrewclarke6899]

I lived in Harlow 1955-59. Not a bad place in those days, full of young couples from Northeast London who were moving into their first decent flat or even a house, and starting a family. Many came out with firms like Standard Telegraph and Cables who moved entire factories to Harlow's industrial estates. Schools were generally very good. Transport not so much, but shops and schools were all within walking distance anyway. My usual trainspotting location was next to the crossing gates at Burnt Mill, quite a long way from Mark Hall South for a ten year old, but I had a bicycle and nobody ever gave me any bovver. Both of Harlow's stations were a bit rustic in those days, but as very few commuted, that didn't matter much. Burnt Mill itself must be one of the last of Britain's Lost Villages to disappear ...

[@AtheistOrphan]

‘Harlow can you go?’

[@someonebald2022]

*Groans* 🙄

[@cv990a4]

Harlow (Harlow, Harlow, Harlow) is there anybody in there, just nod if you can hear me, is there anyone at home?

[@hairyairey]

@@cv990a4 A Song whose title reminds you of sitting on certain seats on newer trains!

[@someonebald2022]

@@cv990a4 "I don't wish to know that!!"

[@jappedut9009]

😂😂😂

[@AtheistOrphan]

5:59 - # ‘Theydon Bois, Theydon Bois, laced-up boots and corduroys’

[@samuelhuf1]

I am from harlow and am amazed you dedicated a video to our little rubbish tip

[@kuyans3889]

The shot of Harlow Town station at around 7 minutes is very pleasing.

[@PokhrajRoy.]

4:49 Standing ovation for high-brow comedy

[@pauljmccluskey5532]

Who remembers the famous Two Ronnies Tube Station sketch? I’d recommend it, very clever wordplay as you’d expect from the late and legendary, Ronnie Barker ☺️

[@wrichard11]

Lovely Harlow. No that's not irony. loved the place although I was only really there at weekends. catch the central at Holborn and head to Epping. Hop on a bus and a short walk to the little flat of my darling beloved (RIP) and Fluffy (also RIP). bliss

[@HwAoRrDk]

2:24 "But Harlow Town station, which wasn't built until 1960" implies that there wasn't a station in existence before then. But there actually was - it just wasn't named Harlow Town. It was previously named Burnt Mill. The current station is built on the same site of the old Burnt Mill station. Burnt Mill was mostly an agricultural goods station prior to the new town being built. Also, Harlow has two stations, the other being Harlow Mill about 2 miles to the east. This station was what was previously named Harlow, and served the village of Harlow, which is now the Old Harlow area of Harlow. Confused yet? 😄

[@Slycockney]

I don't think Lionel Richie has anything to worry about. Excellent video as always, thank you.

[@nigelcole1936]

Quality journalism on a Sunday - can't beat it thanks

[@apuldram]

“Get them out by Friday”. Genesis song on their Foxtrot album. Major references to both Harlow New Town, and process of populating it.

[@DoubleACbg]

I was just thinking of that song

[@whyyoulidl]

Wondered why a local taxi firm used to be called 'Abacab'...

[@MrGreatplum]

It’s not too far from the Battle of Epping Forest…

[@SamanthaWritesThings]

The song's been in my head since I saw the title of this video 😆Look out for the directors of Genetic Control!

[@glynwelshkarelian3489]

I grew up in Crawley New Town, arguably the most successful of the first generation of new towns. Three Bridges is on the London-Brighton main line, and it and Crawley are on the Mid-Sussex line; but it wasn't a dormitory town in the 60's or 70's. It had a lot of modern industry, and Gatwick Airport. The former has mostly gone, the latter keeps the town alive; and it's now just another commuter town.

[@neilbain8736]

2:55 Did you pay him to run like that or was it just one of these once in a lifetime opporchancities that have you giggling all the way to the editing suite? I'd have spilled my coffee if I hadn't finished it. Made my day.

[@seancooper4058]

Actually as someone who lives in Harlow it's very common to see people running there to catch their bus, so really I'm glad he caught it to show what Harlow is really like lol

[@thebean6731]

2:55 dat boy running like his life depends on it😂

[@ICanPlayPiano]

Peter: 'I come from Essex, Harlow'. Paul: 'Harlow'? Peter: 'Harlow. Ermm, Robert Halfon'. Paul: 'Oh, HARLOW!!'

[@raquelraccoon4681]

I'm in Connecticut, USA but my lovely friend lives in Harlow. Thanks for this and all your videos!

[@DeathInTheSnow]

People complain about the _Hertford-Essex Rapid Transport_ (HERT) name, but you have to remember that the first name that the scheme had was the _Hertford-Essex Rapid Passenger Express Service._

[@simonweekes3068]

The suggestion that Epping trains aren’t full, shows you’ve never been on a morning Eastbound train! Anyway, this is a dead duck, Central is too congested and slow. Cross Rail 2 is Harlow’s bus bet. But Essex County Council is the issue, as is always the case! If they had their way we’d have no Central line in Essex.

[@stalbanstransport]

2:54 the random man running made me laugh

[@loftlegacy]

I visit a warehouse in Harlow every year for work and have found out that Harlow Town station isn’t handy for anything in Harlow.

[@Raggattoni]

Round of applause for 'Harlow, is it me your looking for?'

[@Sam_Green____4114]

A Branch of the Cambridge line to a Terminus in the Centre of Harlow would be the correct solution ! With fast trains to London

[@someonebald2022]

Or a tram/light railway? Preferably with good signage, because nearly all the housing bits look the same!

[@Mgameing123]

@@someonebald2022 Yeah a tramway would do better. But a Central Line extension would also be good :)

[@daispy101]

Would require prohibitively expensive tunneling and therefore not going to happen (see HS2). Much the same problem for extending CrossRail 2 out to Harlow.

[@kaliou6645]

3:09 🧸💚That White & Green Bus is similar to the ones in Mexico City😅 What a Humble coincidence!

[@batman51]

I recently visited Harlow for the first time to see my 80 year old sister in hospital. I had anticipated getting the bus to the hospital, only it turned out no such thing existed so instead I had to walk through the drizzle along the wide roadways and through back alleys to reach her (and ditto on the return). So what Harlow needs is a better bus service. It seems remarkable well served for trains given that, at least on my visit, the number of passengers did not justify 6 trains per hour in each direction.

[@dave771]

The people of Epping would not want the people of Harlow to be a short train journey away. The fact they can do it on one bus is bad enough. Oh, and great video as always!

[@Mark.Andrew.Pardoe]

Whato Jago, You didn't mention all the pubs in the new town were named after butterflies or moths when they were first opened. Yes, I know that's nothing to do with railways but does give you one interesting thins about the place.

[@windowsdosguy]

What could help is to have something similar to Stourbridge. There is a railway station no where near the town centre, so build a small heavy-rail branch that can be used by both normal trains and something like the Parry People Movers used on the Stourbridge branch. Apparently it really increased passenger usage, and is cheap to run.

[@lankriverfront8360]

Harlow has direct links to the Underground already. Tottenham Hale, Stratford, Finsbury Park Etc are all connected to the Liverpool Street to Harlow line

[@vkm5828]

Precisely. I gather the imbecile who wrote the original article which this video was based on has no clue about transport infrastructure, data, or the idea of structure a logical argument. Merely someone who speaks from self interest. I can think of 10 satellite towns of London far more deserving of incorporation into the tube network, but simply won't be, because it is not necessary, practical or helpful to do so.

[@michaelwright2986]

Being in my anecdotage, talk of congestion on the Central Line prompts me to tell of 1962, when for 6 months before going to university I had a job in the seat reservation office at Liverpool Street. I was living in Walthamstow, not then on any kind of tube, so the route (given I got free train tickets) was BR to Stratford, and change onto the Central Line. At Stratford, at high rush hour, the carriages were in sardine mode, so being an annoying teenager I developed the technique of waiting until the doors started closing, jumping into the carriage causing a compression wave to swell before me, and hoping the doors would close behind me before the rebound pushed me out again. It was about that time that I learned about the pushers on the Tokyo subway/metro/underground.

[@gsygsy]

I once drove to Harlow New Town (as it was still called then). When I got in the car to drive home to London a thick fog had descended. I drove round and round the ring road for at least an hour. No signs to an A-road. No signs of life, either. If I hadn't gambled randomly on a left-turn, I might still be there today.

[@nmarks]

I worked in Harlow for three years, for General Portfolio, a life insurance company. They owned the large red-brick office building as you come just outside the station. They expanded so quickly they had a second similar looking office built just across the road. As I didn't own a car I had to walk everywhere or take public transport so I know the station well. Quite brutal architecture.

[@SmudgeThomas]

My grandfather helped with the laying out of Harlow New Town, the house numbers were part of his job. Suburbanising Harlow was always going to happen, cities grow, and London has been throttled for too long already

[@jakeeiseman-renyard3505]

The Central line was intended to be even longer; in the inter-war years, it was intended to go beyond West Ruislip: to Harefield Road and Denham. I'm not entirely sure why this was abandoned, but compared to the Northern line's extensions to Bushey Heath, Elstree and Alexandra Palace, which were abandoned completely, it's commonly assumed that all works on the Central were completed, which is not so.

[@katrinabryce]

I would argue that the Northern City Line is the [uncompleted] Crossrail 1, ThamesLink is Crossrail 2, and the Elizabeth Line is Crossrail 3.

[@TheUnknown313]

Yeah, logically Crossrail 2 is the best option out of all of them and yes, the Central Line is the most logical (In terms of using the Tube), simply because Epping is the nearest to Harlow. Though if Harlow Council are pushing for a Tube line and if the Central Line can't handle the capacity, the other option could be extending the Victoria Line to Harlow instead. The line is only half an hour long, so an extension would be okay. Despite the line currently terminating at Walthamstow. Unless you create a new branch and have 2 separate Termini. Like the Piccadilly or Northern Lines.

[@HuggyBob62]

I used to live at Gants Hill, and we had a talk by someone from London Underground (or whatever it was called in the 1960s), who said that there was capacity on their trains for everyone to have a seat (and the audience laughed, of course). He went on to say that people didn't spread out their travelling evenly in the course of the day so at rush hour, for example, you had extra people wanting to use the tube.

[@PokhrajRoy.]

9:42 Your wordplay is brilliant

[@wrestlcub]

'Harlow... is it me you're looking for?' caused me to ugly snort-laugh.

[@ianhalsall-fox]

Good to see you branching out of London!

[@alumpy-acho112]

Happy bank holiday weekend everyone!

[@hughs591]

Loved the video, and, especially, the slogan :^)

[@ColinRaybould]

I understand that PAYG ticketing is going all the way out to Stansted Airport, so should also include Harlow. That should improve ticketing from Harlow into London.

[@GeorgeChoy]

New towns, something that didn’t live up to potential. Great video, thanks

[@pixoontube2912]

Looking at the large distance between Harlow and London and the therefore high travel speed required for a reasonable fast trip, extending the Central line seems really inconvenient. I think that Crossrail 2 would be the best option, followed by the adding more tracks and improving the service option.

[@made_of_paper]

The Crossrail 2 trains going into the tunnels at Tottenham would free up platforms at Liverpool Street. Presumably to run better Stansted/Cambridge services. I have read that one of the large rail projects that would be under consideration after HS2 & NPR would be an express route from Cambridge, stopping at Stansted Airport and Liverpool street only. This would be quite synergistic if implemented with CR2.

[@alastairfulbrook1285]

Good video. One option you didn't consider that has been discussed by myself and others on a UK rail forum is a BRT option from Epping to Harlow, using a new bus only motorway junction for the M11 at Epping Rd in North Weald Bassett, and the existing route to Harlow bus station from the M11 down the A414 (following an express stopping pattern of 4 stops Epping to Harlow) This would take 15 mins end to end (timetabled 20 mins to allow for congestion) and could be implemented a lot cheaper than a tube extension. Another scheme that resembles the motorway section, including the junction, has been implemented with the Bristol Metrobus and is largely successful.

[@starpoint271]

Central line trains are full by the time they even leave Epping on some weekday mornings. The car park is full by 7.15. If anything it needs more trains, adding more stations to it (altough re-instating the Ongar bit would help) would be a disaster. The route between Epping and Harlow is open countryside and its a battle every year to keep it that way, this really wouldn't help.

[@TheGKFront]

Thank you for the video and the vidoes from Harlow that bring back memories

[@johnboyle9682]

Just having had a quick look at a map I'd say extending the Overground service out to Harlow would make more sense.

[@user-sd3ik9rt6d]

We should restore the Ongar section and build a new town.

[@myonlydemandisbacktowork8759]

More train is needed but I think it can be done

[@hi-viz]

Green belt

[@joshc140]

It’s a heritage railway now, and a really nice one at that

[@SeanSoraghan]

It was not electrified and has been mostly built over

[@jackmartinleith]

@@SeanSoraghan Incorrect.

[@steve.b.23]

7:11 Mr. Nesbitt was behind the tree on the left. Unfortunately it's a very obvious piece of cover.

[@dddakapalejoegrindexofteny4026]

🤣

[@PartarioAbdullah-Levi]

And now for something completely different.

[@Rocksock531]

Serving it with Crossrail 2 would be great!

[@AlanHMartin]

You are the Lionel Richie song to my ELO song. Telephonically speaking.

[@tallthinkev]

If I'm ever feeling a bit sad, or down in the dumps, I just think, could be worse I could live in Harlow

[@davidhoward2836]

Interesting Video! I never understood why when Stanstead was rebuilt as an international airport it wasn't thought to extend the central line that far! Probably too expensive and too time consuming etc.. The Underground to Harlow would be a halfway measure, albeit unlikely, as Harlow town Council, like Epping Forest district council cannot find its own backside without both hands and a map...

[@p1mason]

I think this highlights the important difference between the purpose of metro rail (ie circulating people throughout an urbanised area), and suburban rail (ie bringing people into an urban area from outlying districts). It's hard for one train to do both these things well, and almost everyone is better off if some trains focus on being metros, and others focus on serving the suburbs.

[@miked351947]

Reading about the HERT project leads me to request a video covering the 724 bus route, please

[@kdisley]

9:38 Or, depending on the line that's decided upon, perhaps "Harlow - Broxbourne, my old friend" or "I will make you HERT"...?

[@alanlittle4589]

I would love to see Harlow connect with the rest of Essex. There's no direct rail route between the line out to Harlow and the line out to Chelmsford and Colchester. The flitch way is a former rail line between Witham and Bishops Stortford which closed 20 years before Stansted airport opened 🤦‍♂️. I would favour a new route now, but connecting east to west across Essex perhaps closer to Chelmsford, would take strain off the A414 and could also provide a connection with the Central line. My main point is this, we should be able to help people in the home counties be able to avoid zone 1 if they want to travel to a different part of the country, or indeed the continent (Put the International back in Ebbsfleet International). East West Rail is a good step in the right direction here as well. Ps. I have no figures for the percentage of passengers who go into zone 1 and change terminus, probably fairly low because it's a bit of a pain... It's greener and the roads are creaking so we should do it. Rant over.

[@Gary0557]

They're 'rammed' on the westbound trains even when you get to Stratford.

[@dddakapalejoegrindexofteny4026]

Can i suggest a slightly wider look at the area? Harlow Town was previously "Burnt Mill" station and "Harlow Mill" is the original station for the settlement.. pre-war, Harlow Mill had an engine turntable. there is a roman temple between the two stations and -i'm sure- lots more interesting rail history to be uncovered. not far beyond Harlow mill is the "Frederick Gibberd" Garden.. the personal home and architectural wonder garden of the New Town's creator... Clough Ellis (Harlow architect) built Portmerion , Gibberd built a Garden. Regards Darren

[@demitrilevantis3427]

Nice to see you covering my hometown. Personally, I'm in favour of Harlow being on central as it feels more and more like a London suburb every year.

[@keystonedriving8180]

I don't know what the Central Line service is like now, but between 1993 and 1999 when I used it btween Woodford and Lancaster Gate it was very heavily biased toward the Hainault loop. I think my personal record was, at about 1730, no less than 7 trains for Hainault before we got an Epping. Three or four was very much the norm. If the line was to be extended to Harlow, on that basis they could probably fit in a couple of through services a day. It would be a very slow journey though. A more sensible, and cheaper, solution would be to put in a connection from Crossrail to the Lea Valley line at Stratford and run trains that way. You could even have a Heathrow to Stanstead service. Put back the third side of the triangle at Dalston and you could run a Gatwick to Stanstead service as well. It would probably be desirable to make the Lea Valley 4 tracks, but that would be no bad thing in the long term. At the end of the day it makes no difference to me, in 1999 I took redundancy and moved back home to Cornwall. I haven't missed London for a single moment. Every time I visit confirms that it was the best decision I have ever made.

[@rupep2424]

Crossrail only took 50-80yrs. Crossrail2 started 120yrs ago - before Yerkes stopped it 😮

[@JonathanMorris777]

Living in Hertfordshire, our wonderful county council has for at least 20 years kept coming up with local plans that make bold predictions of the future (like Elon Musk promising travel to Mars or fully self driving cars by 2016, 2017, 2018...) and this has included crazy schemes and investment in rail that never happens because they don't want to contribute any money towards any of the projects. They effectively scuppered the extension works around Watford, have never done anything about light rail or trams on the Alban Way, but have done a nice job of rendering images of some sort of futuristic travel system that is essentially just a bus with a fancy bodyshell (anyone remember the First ftr buses in York?). Realistically, the best we could expect is TfL to bring some lines into the London Overground fold, but it wouldn't likely be TfL taking over - rather existing TOCs just rebranding some trains and changing the uniform of the train crew. One such example might be the Great Northern inner services out of Moorgate. A uniform fleet of trains and stopping patterns (mostly) that could easily change almost overnight by adding some LO branding inside and out (and later, changing the seat covers). But it would essentially be unchanged from what it is today (perhaps with the exception that we might see not only contactless extending to Stevenage, which is already happening, but a way to fudge Oyster acceptance throughout also). Frankly, it's pie in the sky to imagine TfL investing in all-new lines for any distance outside of its remit.. and unless a new Government fully merges TfL with DfT operations the age-old question of WHO WILL PAY FOR IT, remains. Councils have no money so all they'll do is keep promising great things on their NEXT local plan.

[@sglenny001]

They also had FTR buses in Leeds and what a cool daft thing they were

[@Arghans]

As a former resident of Harlow, we used to drive and get into London from Debden as the parking was easier there and it was cheaper than getting the train. I would assume those car parks are not rammed like they used to be but back then the want for extending back to North Weald with a bigger car park was what we used to wish for.

[@ingleacre6480]

This is why I've come around to the idea that extensions aren't always a good idea - the Victoria is really the ultimate London-style metro line precisely because it doesn't try to be a regional commuter line as well, and the older lines which were extended to be all gangly (looking at the Picaddilly and Central in particular) clearly suffer because of how long and unwieldly they've become. It's why I've also come to see the idea of extending the Bakerloo beyond Lewisham along the Hayes line to be a similar mistake. The EL (and to a lesser extent Thameslink) show how there's more value in maintaining mainline trains on mainline train lines and connecting them together across the city into new RER-style lines, leaving metro lines to do what they do best - be metros! (If/when the Bakerloo does get extended to Lewisham, it would probably be more useful and reliable if it either stopped there and interchanged with longer-distance routes, or it was given passive provision for at most one further short extension to another significant urban centre like eg Bromley, but even that's pushing it.)

[@Kx6tc]

I do agree with this sentiment, and I do believe that a Crossrail 3 type scheme for the Hayes branch with mainline trains would be a better idea, however in this case I think an extension to Harlow might make sense due to redundancy. If the West Anglia Main Line has any problems ( or Crossrail 2 if it gets built), the Central Line could be used as an alternative to commute into London. This would probably be the same for Clapham Junction if Crossrail 2 is built, with a Northern Line connection helping to improve redundancy there. Anyhow, the Central Line was originally designed to head to Chelmsford, and the line from Ongar already points in that direction, so I am not sure how feasible a project would be.

[@ingleacre6480]

@@Kx6tc Somewhat hilarious to imagine someone riding all the way from Chelmsford to Ruislip on the tube - pushing the limits of the appeal of a single-seat ride. However, Crossrail 2's current planned route is very lopsided (just two branches in the NE, four in the SW), and I have wondered if the mooted "possible future branch" to Hackney Downs/Central - which currently has nothing proposed beyond just heading in that general direction - might be the best candidate to take over the Central line from Leytonstone to Epping. If it did then extending the line to Ongar again, and eventually terminating it at either Chelmsford or Harlow, would make a lot more sense, and the Central could then focus on just the Hainault loop at its sole eastern branch.

[@Kx6tc]

@@ingleacre6480I could not imagine an Underground service from West Ruislip to Chelmsford on a tight deep level tube train, the Central line is already unbearable in the summers. In regards to the Hackney extension of Crossrail 2, I used to think that this extension was designed to go to East London, passing through Stratford International and onto the C2C lines from Barking, however, if I am wrong, I am glad to be corrected. I do think that your idea of using the Epping branch of the Central line for Crossrail 2 is a good idea, however I think that a lot of infrastructure work would need to be completed for this to happen, for example a lot of platform extensions and bridge height raising would need to be done to accommodate mainline trains, as well as the separation of Crossrail 2 trains and Central Line trains at Woodford. Therefore, in the current financial climate, I am not sure if this is the most cost effective solution.

[@ingleacre6480]

@@Kx6tc I've never seen anything about putting c2c on CR2, and I'm not sure it would make much sense - it would undoubtedly end up even more unwise than the Abbey Wood branch of CR1, unable to cope with the number of passengers who'd (totally reasonably) prefer the direct service to central London with multiple interchanges along the way rather than having to figure out an onward journey from Fenchurch St. It would probably nevertheless make sense for any future eastern branch via Hackney to interchange at Stratford (proper or International). But would the Epping line need much work for taking mainline trains? It already was a mainline branch line until 1948 after all. (Worth noting also that taking over Leytonstone-Epping was in the original Chelsea-Hackney line proposal from the 70s so I imagine some thought has gone into it, albeit not necessarily recently.)

[@Smart1529]

I was thinking that a Crossrail 3 should happen going from North West to South East and serve areas like Harrow, Wembley Edgware and Hampstead up North and areas like Camberwell, Peckham, Lewisham, Grove Park, Sidcup, Bexley and Orpington. After Crossrail 2 of course. And I hope Crossrail 2 goes to Sherperton via Kingston and serves Tooting Broadway despite the price cost.

[@martyn6792]

Two stations, Harlow Town and Harlow Mill

[@jonathandriver3415]

The idea of the Chelsea-Hackney Line, which has been around for so many years. Seems to have been taken over by the idea of Crossrail 2, which has been around for so many years.

[@user-rs5do6ud6b]

I have been to and stayed in Harlow on a number of occasions. Traffic did not seem a problem but it was not rush hour. The train from Liverpool Street only takes 30 minutes to Harlow Mill, one stop on from Harlow Town, despite numerous stops. What struck me was how expensive it was.

[@wclifton968gameplaystutorials]

The "HERT" scheme will probably end up being built as a guided busway, and not a tram if funding is ever approved, as judging by the success of the Crawley Fastway, Cambridge Busway, Kent Fastrack and Manchester Vantage Busway as compared to the financial failures of say the Nottingham Express Transit (NET) or the West Midlands Metro (Birmingham Tramway).

[@teecefamilykent]

Brilliant video sir!

[@BlackholeYT11]

One video topic I'd love to see from you Jago would be plans to expand TfL-run rail line services into Bromley, which has always been a conspicuous hole on the map and which it'd be interesting to see it discussed both why that is and plans to address it. There's the Bakerloo line extension as one possibility of course, but I'd love to hear analysis of other options I've heard posited, including taking over other National Rail lines, extending out the tramlink into Bromley proper, and even taking the DLR south, which I think Bromley council was gunning for at one point even though it sounds the least likely to me. Would be fascinated to hear your thoughts.

[@lavistar]

0:36 How long was that again? 0:44 Thanks Jago

[@RoyalFlushFan]

When I overheard this, I rewinded a couple seconds and expected a pun on different ways of measuring its length (it includes a loop section after all)

[@AFCManUk]

I suppose one way of shortening journey times and increasing capacity on the Central Line would be to have regular separate shuttle services between Leytonstone and Buckhurst Hill on the Hainault Loop, and another regular shuttle between North Acton and Ealing Broadway, so they could run extra direct trains between West Ruislip and Epping (and beyond), and not worry about routing any trains off the main line.

[@jefffranklin4894]

Ayyy didn't know you watched Jago mate, seen you a fair amount #WeAreTheMedia

[@AFCManUk]

@@jefffranklin4894 Heyyy brother :D. Yes, I have many strange youtube tastes,,lol

[@petermartin7350]

How much easier it would have been to set up HERT had not so many lines been abandoned and then built over - Hertford - Welwyn Garden City, WGC to Harpenden Luton and Dunstable, Hatfield to St. Albans Abbey.

[@borassictime918]

Crossrail 2? 🤔 I can see it in your eyes, I can see it in your smile, you’re all I ever wanted…but given the colossal delays and cost over-run for the Elizabeth Line don’t hold your breath. 😂

[@jennyd255]

Forget Harlow. Back when I lived in the area I always wished that the Ongar extension could be reopened and extended into Chelmsford... Sadly I doubt anything so useful for the many Chelmsford commuters would ever happen, although a fairly decent alternative would have been to extend the Elizabeth line from Shenfield. (Anyway I have moved to Scotland so it's no longer really my concern.)

[@nathan_scofield_ynwa]

impossible because Chelmsford only has 2 platforms. And if you extend it to there, Colchester will be jealous, then Ipswich, then Norwich haha

[@jackmartinleith]

@@nathan_scofield_ynwa Sidenote: Beaulieu Park (under construction, expected completion December 2025) will have three platforms.

[@staszekr03]

An idea I have would be to exend the Victoria line to take over the Hainault loop. This would provide some relief for the central line and give the victoria line an above ground section.

[@ccityplanner1217]

From Oxford Circus, taking the Central line to Epping takes about 14 minutes longer than getting to Harlow on the Victoria line & changing at Tottenham Hale. However, Harlow is poorly connected with areas directly to its south, so a new route could be justified by providing service to new urbanisation around Thornwood and junction 7 of the M25. It would be a lot like the Watford branch of the Metropolitan line mostly serving to connect Watford to Northwood and Harrow. I think the council could be neglecting what can be achieved in public transport without needing a railway: the current bus between Epping and Harlow is only half-hourly, which is not attractive.

[@ccityplanner1217]

Or, if we were to be really extravagant, a line would run from Harlow to Epping, then a new tunnel could connect Debden with Grange Hill via Chigwell Row. It would then run in another tunnel from Newbury Park to Ilford and Barking, hopefully ending Loxford's status as London's worst suburb for traffic congestion.

[@pauljmccluskey5532]

It’s ‘Arlow, not Harlow, if you’re from the town itself 😜

[@QPRTokyo]

If only the new towns were like Poundbury.

[@Londoncycleroutes]

Nice idea about taking Crossrail 2 to Harlow, makes a lot of sense. My first thought on the idea of a central line extension was the same as yours - is there capacity in the centre? But actually, there's a second objection which is: would you really take the central line all that way when an express rail service exists? But then... does that cancel out the first objection? Perhaps a central line extension could be more useful for people to get between places on the central line like Epping, Wanstead, Hainault etc and Harlow without a car, rather than into central London (though doubtless some people would use it for commuting if their workplace was more conveniently reached by it than having to change at Liverpool Street). But perhaps that would be more manageable? Who knows

[@frglee]

Looking at the OS Map (on streetmap), the 7 mile extension of the Central Line to Harlow from Epping looks pretty do-able, construction-wise and cost-wise, especially as the heritage line section west of Blake Hall from Epping could be used for the first couple of miles to the M11. It could then run alongside the motorway up to junction 7, then follow the A414 and A1025 into Harlow, say, initially to near the bus station and eventually to the main line station. There seems to be lots of unused land by these roads in Harlow left for landscaping by the planners. I somehow doubt that commuters from Harlow would congest the Central Line quite so much, there being a better fast train service to Liverpool Street - but they would use up spare capacity on the Epping branch and Harlow residents might well find a link to Stratford and connecting locations like Canary Wharf very useful.

[@PartarioAbdullah-Levi]

"Harlow, is it me you're looking for?” 🤦‍♀️ Could be worse, you could have done "Don't look back in Ongar".

[@ziggarillo]

HERT is obviously intended to be pronounced in the same as the first 4 letters of Hertfordshire, so not " hurt"

[@alastairwilson457]

My first wife came from Harlow, she used to get upset when I suggested Harlow was part of London. Maybe I was right all along 😅