PVA Pro Tips for Terrain Builders!

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Everything I've learned about PVA for wargames terrain and scenery building in the last 5 years of being TTT. Yep, all my secret tips for gluing, gritting, flocking and sealing. I hope it helps you with your hobby folks!
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[@TheTerrainTutor]

So, back to the two camera filming and first time using multicam editing in premiere pro. A little mistake with the audio for a couple of seconds (my bad) but beyond that, what do you think of the visuals/audio folks, am I getting better? Any recommendations/suggestions?

[@TheTerrainTutor]

Awesome mate, glad my videos help you pay the bills :-)

[@titi4112]

I have only found you recently, so I have been binge watching everything you have. And since I have been watching back to back, your improvements have been quite noticeable! I think you are doing a great job and keep up the good work!

[@billd.iniowa2263]

looks real fine Mel.

[@Adi031978]

I would say that it is a great visual improvement. The content was always great but now your visuals start matching your content. Great work

[@davidsurtees4439]

TheTerrainTutor brilliant videos bud btw look like your wearing lipstick in your first vid... not judging tho. Your vids really help me hoam in on my skills and use new things thanx

[@travisbdub4952]

No not a pro terrain/model/diarama builder, it is just a fun past time for me. I collect interestingly shaped plastic stuff out of the garbage as I trash-dive around town. Then I sit down with it all at some point and proceed to cut/break things apart, glue them together and form weird and or fantastical things with it. Wherever my imagination takes it.

[@geekfreak69]

Your tutorials are an absolute need for people like me who is new to the hobby

[@chrissh9001]

Wow 45 minutes on PVA??? Thought you must be mad, almost an hour on white glue??? LOL I gave it a watch anyways, and surprise! I learned a bunch, thanks Mel! I also subscribed to your Patreon channel this morning, keep up the great tutorials. I'm modeling dioramas of old Western Colorado mines and mills from the 1880-1900 era for use on a modular narrow gauge layout. Your videos are a big help, and I plan on going through a bunch of them this holiday season. Cheers from Texas, USA

[@TheTerrainTutor]

That awesome matey, glad you liked the video and thank you for your support!

[@HomeWithDrew]

Absolutely stunning in such a short time! The first PVA tutorial is bang on! So looking forward to putting these tips into action

[@Flux_One]

So generous with the knowledge you share. Amazing, thanks

[@timpiscovich4955]

Your videos are like a master class , as a new to the hobby kinda guy , this is amazing .

[@lorremortimer2183]

Great Info!!! Thanks from a mini stuff newbie! It’s already hard, so thanks for not being selfish with avoidance of pitfalls info. ❤️✌️👍

[@StevenHudson-gs4uu]

Fantastic video love your desire to share all you know and from what i've seen you deserve a medal. I model railway scenes of the Edwardian period. Thank you learnt so much !!

[@michaelleblanc3210]

You have great advise for builders because you explain things so good and percise nobody can go wrong.

[@MrCros1970]

Thank you for sharing your knowledge, love your work Cros

[@Tabletop_Crafting_Cave]

german beginning terrain builder here! Love your videos - startin' a marathon right now - watchin' you. Nice Work AND Explaining! One day i may be as half as a genious in making terrain like you are :D Keep it going (please) :)

[@twotoesshort1696]

Great tips and very well explained. Never would have thought of adding paint to the glue... brilliant! Just getting into making dioramas for diecast cars so thank you!

[@davidswindells3171]

I am a train guy. I do watch your videos. I find them very informative, but this one... Fantastic! I didn't want it to end. Keep up the good work. I live in Colombia and I just starting a new layout and I will definitely use your advice. Thank you.✌️🚂🚃🚃🚃🚃

[@johnslade3104]

The best terrain building video I,ve seen yet just excellent Thanks

[@AlastairJChristie]

Thanks Mel. Been making scenery for wargames for 30 years, and I still learned stuff! :)

[@FenixCreations]

Of all the terrain builders I've seen, yours is the most informative, esp for people like me, who just start this amazing hobby! Thanks alot! 🥇🙏

[@theenigmaticgamer]

Fantastic video Mel! Very slick and the changes of camera angle work really well. Just about to start my own table build and so your timing was perfect! Now I know a awful lot more about PVA than I did. Thanks for your efforts and here's to loads more vids. Cheers Keith

[@TheTerrainTutor]

Awesome sauce mate, glad it helped!

[@GryphonArmorer]

I haven't been doing terrain or diorama building near as long as you (just a couple years now). In that time, both watching you & others and my own experiences so far I am switching from "standard" pva (Elmers glue) to wood glue (yellow) for construction. Also I'm trying Modpodge hardcoat mixed with black paint for a foam sealer. But am keeping my basing glue and basing sealer just regular old pva & water with a few drops of iso (90%). Although, I like the idea of putting a bit of paint into the basing glue as a visual guide.

[@DrVesuvius70]

Hey fellowTerrainiacs, tell me the truth now... When you were growing up and dreaming of what the world would be like in the future, did you ever dream you'd be able to watch a 45 minute instructional film about a glue....? ...and actually find it interesting? I mean I'm looking forward to making time to watch this later, but the sheer absurdity of it just hit me big-time.

[@TheTerrainTutor]

Imagine explaining to people that you make 45 minute long videos on glue for people to watch on the internet ......

[@TheTerrainTutor]

... for a living ....

[@joshjohnston7388]

I'm still gob-smackingly stunned that i went from thinking i could never do something like that, to having produced three great pieces that I'm proud of. We're talking custom gunpla in various environments (one even in space) with scratch built buildings and objects, simply because a bunch of awesome people made excellent "how it's done" videos. My work isn't "professional," but I think it's darn good. I'm very grateful for these people for turning me on to this stuff. I always wanted to do it but never thought I could. Just like weight training, cooking, algebra...

[@HomeWithDrew]

Yeah back in school I wouldnt have predicted we would all be staring at 5 inch screens learning all sorts of weird and wonderful topics of all kinds

[@djskizzle1]

very helpful, as someone just getting started. thanks kindly!

[@nemethzsistvan]

This was something exceptionally fantastic tutorial, thanks!

[@TheTerrainTutor]

Hope it helps you bud :-)

[@zodiac8892]

Thanks Mel, brilliant vid as usual. Very helpful mate. ;)

[@jodyfarmer8404]

LOL Mel!..youve grown so much!..youre too funny sometimes!..Ive learned so much!, thank you!...oh, im new to tutorials, LOL!!

[@napper8879]

Excellent video, informative and clear.

[@KentsPaintShack]

Great video mate I found the sound and picture to be really good

[@AndrewFishman]

Another great video mate!

[@yank3656]

thanks for sharing The Terrain Tutor

[@timhyatt9185]

Jetdry (the anti-spotting additive meant for dishwashers) works better than dish soap, it's essentially a high tech anti-surfactent which lowers the surface tension of the water, which is what flow aids are doing.....nice side effect...no bubbles....it actually lowers the tendency to bubble and keeps everything flowing. (works wonders if you add a drop or two to plaster castings too, reduces bubbles....)

[@TheTerrainTutor]

Thanks for the heads up bud

[@uncleoyster]

Late to comment here, but mate - thanks for this. Massively valuable information.

[@Eduardoalbaladejomendez]

nice video mate!

[@mikesmith2718]

great tutorial very informative and much appreciated

[@TheTerrainTutor]

Cheers buddy

[@jjab99]

With Great PVA Comes Great Responsibility !!

[@TheTerrainTutor]

Indeed!

[@kingjpeg]

Thank you buddy, just starting my journey into making small dios so this has been mega helpful. Do you have any videos or tips on making hedgerows and trees?

[@mtstewart8535]

I remember that video! You should do a few more recaps on some of those videos

[@TheTerrainTutor]

When I reach the point that I can serious improve info wise on the previous vid, I'll update it mate

[@dreadknot69]

Great job Mel! Someone who isn't as lazy as I am, should put in time markers for topics. Well worth the effort.

[@TheTerrainTutor]

Oh I like that idea, once I've got my head around premiere and improved the audio, I'll look into indexing for the big techniques vids, wonder if there's a plugin for premiere that does it?

[@dreadknot69]

TheTerrainTutor Yeah, it's called a buddy and that buddy types in the timecodes in the KZbin comments. Then you cut/paste that into the description proper. Job done. :) They do it like that for music mixes all the time.

[@mbdeyes]

Great stuff! Thanks!

[@michaelstarr2747]

Haha! I loved the cutaway to your stirring Mel!

[@SonOfBeor]

Michael Starr It's even better on 1.5x speed... :D

[@TheTerrainTutor]

Just messing around with the multicam stuff mate :-D

[@SonOfBeor]

TheTerrainTutor It works really well, super smooth! 👍

[@TheTerrainTutor]

Cheers bud

[@stephenrenwick8781]

Great video... Audio/Visuals looked fine to me.

[@lonelygiant]

This vid is super great. Thank you!!

[@SBEARD12345]

I have a sign above my desk saying don't add water until all PVA is dried..a few times it leaked into the water. Made a great pattern.. Thanks for the video

[@TheTerrainTutor]

Oh yeah, tide marks lol

[@SBEARD12345]

TheTerrainTutor Of course if I colour it bright green then that's a toxic spill

[@benwooding1311]

I started watching this video thinking "I've already heard everything that Mel has to say on PVA in his other videos". You proved me wrong. Well done. It's always worth watching and I love every video. You talked about brands, but is there a way to tell from the label how 'pure' the PVA is?

[@TheTerrainTutor]

The more it looks like gel, the more pure it is mate

[@billd.iniowa2263]

I like the regular pva as opposed to the school glue. I can always water it down myself. But i use pva for building with paper and wood mostly. Dont do nearly as much grass/rock terrain.

[@TheTerrainTutor]

It's the better stuff mate

[@AFV85]

I love the look of that sandy rock hill looks like something the camo dude would sit up on or be cool in my iraq diarama I'm away to start with a husky and Bradley n few them modern British troops resin figures off ebay

[@carbon1255]

Can you do a video on making things to improve your craft space? Things you can to make making things easier, as well as organising things and some useful premixed things.

[@TheTerrainTutor]

I would but I outgrew my house to a studio, perhaps I'm not the best person for that sort of advice

[@Broken777Arrow]

This was super helpful! Could you add a small amount of matte varnish in to your pva spray for extra protection or is that just overkill? Thinking about terrain used at the club that might be handled a bit roughly

[@AFV85]

Is thee a full video on building these mel? What did you use for filling the middle just that dial filler? J picked 3 pots up the day n silicone etc n got gravel n sand left over from the aquarium set ups I done couple years ago there pretty nice d For scale the gravel n sand n stuff really like these three just perfect for what I need is that cork or real rock

[@twoaf3261]

Legend Mel

[@hongtanke]

you've cut down the crackins'! good job!

[@Simoncressey99]

Cool vid every time I watch one of your vids reminds me of a program from when I was a kid called art attack 😜

[@TheTerrainTutor]

gotta luv a bit of Neil B

[@MrMonkeyhanger]

Was just about to say I think Mel has an air of Neil Buchanan about him! Glad I'm not the only one

[@HomeWithDrew]

100%. Said this in another video...just waiting for a big art attack where Mel males a 1:1 diorama from foam, herbs, pva glue and house paint 😆

[@roblindsay3422]

I was trying to work out what it reminded me of, thats it!

[@PhilSNight]

My brother - you need to make more videos more often!

[@plasticbutcher]

Another great video Mel, greatly appreciated. Rick B aka Plastic butcher

[@paullangton-rogers2390]

This may seem a silly question but I'm totally new to this... does this PVA smell (in the finished product) if added to DAS modelling clay? And is there any real benefit to adding it? I'm wanting to make some replicas of very expensive antique Chinese and Japanese bowls I have in my collection for display and thought perhaps PVA would make the air dry clay more like porcelain?

[@rosemaryr.long-morgan9704]

Hi Thanks for sharing. Will this work for a sand dune (Wright Bros. Flyer scene before take off from Kitty Hawk (now Kill Devil Hills) NC, 12" (Bi-plane is 1/39 scale on Crest of Dune, but slope and base/beach is in 1/100 scale due to space restrictions) with a frame and mesh covering as a base for shape/stability or do I need to add plaster/plaster bandage strips to your mix to cover mesh? Ratio suggestions? Thanks. /Rosemary

[@LemmyCaution66]

Very interesting video. It’s amazing how rapidly the quality of them gets better. Where will it end?

[@TheTerrainTutor]

With a holographic Mel sitting on your shoulder ..... "you've got a bit too much whatchamacallit in ya thingymabob mate but just crack on ..."

[@Flazhness]

Breathe man, holy shit XD You're like gasping for air lol.. VERY useful information, but the desperate gasping for air had me laughing through most of it ^^

[@JimBCameron]

Wouldn't the undiluted PVA & a hogs hair brush be quite effective as a used dirt road? (maybe with a couple of resin puddles)

[@loupiscanis9449]

Thank You .

[@angeloperini7524]

Hy,sorry but for seal flock and grave in better sparky PVA 50/50 water or just 1 part pva and 6 part water. Thanks

[@admira5228]

Great video, thanks a ton! I was starting to wonder why I never heard of PVA glue before I got into terrain; it turns out that Elmer's glue (a popular craft glue in the US) is pretty much kid-safe PVA glue.

[@TheTerrainTutor]

Yep, that comes up quite a bit

[@shayneandrew4922]

This comment alone was worth watching the video for. You probably have mentioned it elsewhere Mel but prolly alot more Americans looking at getting into it might need it plainly states that Elmer's is what we're after.

[@PersonMan1234]

America here. Quick bit of info. There are two types of common Elmer's polyvinyl acetate glue-- School Glue and Glue All. The Glue All is more expensive, but is less watered down and doesn't wash off as much. School glue has more water, and washes off things better even if dry. Both are safe and non toxic.

[@tiredgardener]

Do the tips here also work with wood glue? Not sure how different it is to PVA, but it does look similar and gives a very strong bond.

[@IntergalacticApeMan]

Makes me happy to see you playing with the different camera angles, mate. You're really getting into this. Thanks for updating this ressource. In reply to my earlier tent question, now that your video is up, I guess florist wire is what you'd also recommend for dome tents then? Anyway, what I've been observing from the railroad people is, they're sculpting their grit dry and then apply an acrylic penetrating primer with a syringe. This seems rather smart to me, since the primer is used to seal concrete for painting for instance. So it shouldn't reactivate with water and make rather durable terrain. I think it's an emulsion of acrylic resin, so it seems to apply to our preferred products as well. From what I could research, it's rather cheap and can be used from the pot. Have you had any experience with it yet and what do you think of it? (My excuse if I got wrong on the terms here, I've had troubles looking up the equivalent to the german product called "Acryl-Tiefgrund". It starts at about 15 € for 10 Litres over here. Concrete sealer and penetrating primer were the terms dropped for a product similar to the german discription.)

[@TheTerrainTutor]

It's a hard steep learning curve but I'm enjoying the results mate Go for plastic packaging for dome tents mate, just lay string with pva on the dome for the tent rods and then layer, when dry, peel away the plastic ;-) They don't push half a kilo of resin tank along their roads mate - durability is the main differentiation between our techniques.

[@IntergalacticApeMan]

Cheers. Well I'm sure it would need a proper sealing layer for game usage, but my thinking was if it's applied like we would do with thinned pva, there's a chance the acrylic sealing product does a better job when it's not reactivating with water. Since the purpose is priming porous surfaces so the paint won't soak in or chip, it can't be that bad to seal in the grit, can it?

[@TheTerrainTutor]

Give it a test mate, best way to be sure and know your products

[@anthony342]

can i glue paper scenic background onto smooth wood

[@enriquel2959]

Hi Mel! Awsome videos! everytime I see them I get to learn more ;) Just two quick questions, I haven't seen you use this technique so I wanted to ask. It is well known that MDF warps with liquid (water, PVA, paint, etc) and PVA gets activated again with moisture, which is a pain when trying to achieve quick and durable terrain pieces. Here is the question, have you ever tried to seal the texturized piece with polyurethane resin? I thought it would be a good idea to lay a thin layer of poly. resin to seal it and paint it afterwards with washes, the cured resin would prevent it from warping and removing the stones/sand. Plus, it would make it more durable. To prevent warping. Would it be a good idea as well to barnish the MDF with poly. resin or any other kind of barnish? Which one would you recommend for each purpose? (MDF sealing and terrain protection) Hopefully I'll see you using this technique in one of your videos

[@TheTerrainTutor]

If I need to seal anything non-scatter, I use a spray varnish mate but beyond that, pva works fine for me

[@AFV85]

Whare do.you get your Baker Ross pva.?

[@57dent]

Mel, you missed the pva use to keep the kids occupied while you're terraining! Take some borax and add a cup of water to it, keep adding more borax until no more dissolves. Pour the saturated solution into a cup that contains a cup of 50%pva/water and stir. After a minute or two you can pour off the excess solution and keep squeezing the silly putty. The more you knead it the stuffer it will become. Don't think it's got a terrain use but the kids will have fun playing with It! One note of caution, make sure they don't leave the solid lump of silly putty on the coffee table. When left alone it will transform back into a thick liquid and run off the table and onto the carpet where it will be almost impossible to remove!

[@TheTerrainTutor]

Oh we always have slime on the go in this house mate :-D

[@thisbridgehascables]

Have you ever considered molding and casting your own terrain pieces from say like a resin/plastic or building the terrain with an epoxy putty material over foam?

[@TheTerrainTutor]

I've considered it mate

[@we4r119]

Do you know what gel agent is in Modge Podge? Also, can you use PVA watered down to make a water effect? Thank you.

[@the_arcanum]

It's actually an acrylic medium emulsion according to its SDS safety sheet. Which does explain how you can have mat and gloss versions and why it's more expensive as a base material. As always, you save quite a few pennies making your own even with art store quality acrylic medium.

[@steveclark247]

Thanks

[@bourne817]

Dammit I love this man

[@caliban7870]

Hi, I was wondering what you can do to help PVA to stick to plastic. I recently finished up some models for someone (GW Products) and shipped them off. When they arrived the grit and rocks pealed right off of the plastic! I know you mentioned that PVA doesn't stick well to plastic but my only alternative is superglue and the cost (and the fumes) are really terrible. Anything I can do to make the PVA stick to plastic Games Workshop bases?

[@TheTerrainTutor]

Sand the plastic with a course grit sandpaper mate

[@TheGeronimoChief]

Can you seal the texture with Varnish ? Like for example the Vallejo matt varnish or something equivalent ?

[@TheTerrainTutor]

Yes but it's kinda overkill if you get my meaning mate

[@LeSadW666]

Got a query if you can answer. I have noticed when using PVA to glue fiddly intricate pieces down, the PVA can go all grey and mucky and rubbery, it starts to look a mess and leaves a grey snottiness on your piece! Am I doing things wrong or am I just using cheap PVA? I have recently made a chimney breast on a house with cut-out card for the bricks and it probably wont look too bad when painted, but still.... is there a way of avoiding this grubiness?

[@TheTerrainTutor]

Errr .... don't know, never seen pva do that before mate, get a different brand! ;-D

[@dragonld123]

I want to make my bases like "Alien planet" (like Starcraft Zerg building area slime). I already have some custom resin bases with some rocks and I want to fill the gaps with PVA to look like slime/pool ground. Any suggestion? liquipedia.net/commons/images/f/ff/HotS_reaper_opening.jpg

[@RockysRoom]

Hey Mel if you already used Matte Mod podge to glue down the flock, can you go over it with PVA to seal it in? Or will it have a bad reaction to the mod podge?

[@TheTerrainTutor]

it'll be fine mate

[@RockysRoom]

Thanks

[@Pedro116092]

to seal my clump folage and for that matter everything including my models I use spray varnish and bulk it up on the items until they are rock hard, I have not had the durability from pva as I have from matt varnish

[@gfyracing7632]

As far as flow-aid goes, can you use Jet Dry?

[@TheTerrainTutor]

sure mate

[@PeterWelzien]

Hi there. I've always been using Casco wood glue for gluing sand and flock (mainly because there always seem to be a bottle somewhere around the house) and now I've tried it to seal the flock as well. I watered it down ~1:4, added a drop of washing up liquid and brushed it on. Now when it's try I noticed that the flock has darkened very much. Much more than in your video. Is it because of the glue used, or did I not water it down enough?

[@TheTerrainTutor]

I've never even heard of Casco mate

[@PeterWelzien]

It's bog standard wood glue. The kind you buy in the DIY store or at the lumber yard. According to the product specification it's PVAc. I'm just wondering if there's something I can do to not have it go so dark.

[@TheTerrainTutor]

It's just standard PVA then, the chemical name for PVA is PVAc :-)

[@bullnut2013]

Great vid mate, though I lost audio at about 27minutes. Anyone else have that problem?

[@TheTerrainTutor]

Yep- bit of a glitch, first time multicam editing in premier pro, luckily is just a couple of seconds of the section intro - phew!

[@viktorhammering6102]

Tried finding where you make hills like this but can’t find it. Complete beginner so I need a good first mission.

[@TheTerrainTutor]

Check the hills playlist mate

[@robertpowell7616]

I've got a white foam board I'm making for Star Wars Legion. Would sealing it with acrylic paint and Modge Podge work or would PVA and paint be a better seal?

[@TheTerrainTutor]

I just use house paint mate

[@robertpowell7616]

@@TheTerrainTutor Thanks I'll give it a shot

[@Crusaderbil]

Hello! You mention 1/6 to 1/10 as sealant analogy. In another video you recommend 50/50. Can you please write more specific which is better and how many parts pva to water for sealing? Keep it up :)

[@TheTerrainTutor]

It depends on how strong your pva is and what you're sealing. Above, just remember you can always put more coats on but you can't taoe them off mate

[@Crusaderbil]

Ok got it. Apart from that thanks for your efforts to pass your knowledge and for your tutorials. Greetings from Greece!

[@Pedro116092]

What about pva in crafters clay, I have been told this addition of pva makes the clay stick better and firms up the clay stronger. Have you ever heard of this tip and would you recommend this. Cheers

[@TheTerrainTutor]

A little helps but careful you don't make your clay sloppy mate

[@JPWestmas]

The thicker raw PVA that isn't watered down looks a lot like "Tacky Glue". I suppose you don't have that over there. Some say its the same but I'm not sure.

[@TheTerrainTutor]

Yeah, I just dehydrate my pva if I want tacky glue mate

[@jodyfarmer8404]

We're you aware of the newspaper article that was at the 28:15 mark??

[@TheTerrainTutor]

That stuff is pretty common for British newspapers mate

[@harleytepania3188]

what's your opinion on flour/water glue

[@TheTerrainTutor]

It's ok for kids crafting but it's not really suitable for terrain

[@jp3d911]

is it mandatory to draw balls with pva for a good adherence ? :p

[@TheTerrainTutor]

Merely a suggestion!

[@klaasbakker4304]

Balls need air too.

[@rwdyeriii]

@jp3d911 no it's mandatory to draw peckers with balls for good adherence with pva. 😂

[@larrynorris2451]

Cool...

[@rat39]

So question for ya Mel. I've been using an Elmer's carpentry glue for what I've do so far. Are there any issues with using this?

[@TheTerrainTutor]

I've never used Elmer's anything mate, it's a US brand, so sorry but I can't help

[@rat39]

Thanks Mel. Perhaps this could be a good question for the terrainiacs group.

[@TheTerrainTutor]

Ask them matey :-)

[@MrLlamatastic]

@theterraintutor you might already know, but at ~ 27:25 there's an error where you play the wrong audio track for a few seconds

[@TheTerrainTutor]

Yep, first time multicamera editing mate

[@MrLlamatastic]

No worries, I know the pain!

[@bradbeining3341]

Windex makes a great flow-aid.try it you'll love it.just use windex not the cheap off brand stuff.

[@TheTerrainTutor]

I'll give it a go mate

[@NordboDK]

Glycerin. Way better. Takes very little.

[@PhilSNight]

Lets fookin craic on

[@briancochrane1054]

I need a JOBBY

[@dudziakdominique1558]

Super vidéo dommage pas en français

[@olovskiPL]

it applies the PVA on its skin :)

[@TheTerrainTutor]

Is that the way you see me? WAIT .... I'm not at the bottom of the well am I?

[@catherineannehenderson8073]

It would be good if you could list products, only cos sometimes I can’t understand what you’re saying lol 😂

[@TheTerrainTutor]

I've started doing that mate

[@larsgottlieb]

LOL spongy-spongy-spongy

[@adamj7841]

Nice PVA drawn bum!

[@TheTerrainTutor]

It's a pum! :-D

[@kaerrunedesigns7267]

I thought it was boobs..

[@brerrabbit4265]

"It's a lady's squirty squirty". LMAO...

[@Lordvoivod]

Yeah, My mind went rather dirty there....

[@scottbond9505]

Nice pink computer

[@TheTerrainTutor]

It's my favourite monitor because it has sparkly stickers

[@jasons1537]

I love the terrain tips but I really just come to hear Mel talk.