Q+A #22 - Classical musicians still feel rhythm differently

[@peterschaffter826]

Adam's video about why classical musicians feel rhythm differently from jazz musicians has been haunting me since he posted it two years ago. He's absolutely right, of course. We do feel rhythm differently, and the reason is simple: we're trained that way. In delightfully Adamsian fashion (Douglas Adams, that is), Mr. Neeley didn't ask quite the right question, which is, "What are the differences in how classical and jazz approach rhythm, and where do the differences come from?" I speak as a classically trained pianist and composer of classical music who has some experience performing and writing in jazz-derived genres. The degree of my involvement with jazz-derived genres (jazz/rock/pop...) is limited because classical is my native tongue. I will always speak jazz with a classical accent, however much I love it. My interest in this business of the classical/jazz rhythmic divide stems from a sensation I experience when playing jazz in an ensemble. It's quite intense. I feel boxed in, musically, like there's no room to breathe, no space to let the music bloom. The band always seems to be getting ahead of me. I have to stifle my interpretive creativity in order to keep up, leading me to feel like a cog in an unyielding bit of clockwork. A confession like that is not one I make easily. It might be mistaken for a slur against non-classical music, which it is not. It is just an impression, a useful one because it demonstrates how this particular classical musician responds to the emphasis placed on the beat in jazz. Jazz and its derived forms are all about the beat. The rhythm section rules the ensemble. Its chief function is to establish and maintain a regular beat. All other players are subservient to it. Improvisation and interpretive urges must be expressed within the container of a regularly sounded beat, usually supplied by unpitched percussion. This is of course a generality, but I implore readers who take issue to challenge the generality, not to cite fruitless exceptions that are mostly self-evident. In addition to metronomicity, the beat in jazz is democratized. Weak beats are emphasized (accented) so they're on an equal footing with strong beats. A single bar of 4/4 time falls naturally into arrangement of strong and weak beats: DAH-duh-DUH-duh. When the beats are democratized, they become DAH-DAH-DAH-DAH. Perfect synchronization with the beat is a hallmark of good jazz performance. Adam, for example, gushes over the way the members of John Coltrane's ensemble all land with mathematical precision on key beats, using his DAW's waveform visualizer to prove they're millisecond accurate. ("John Coltrane's Lost Album," kzbin.info/www/bejne/rJi1qXaFp5uAi6s.) Jazz performances tend to fall apart when all the players aren't "in the pocket." Classical music and its derived forms, on the other hand, are all about the musical line. Classical music grew out of a tradition of church music which forbade the use of drums. From monks singing Gregorian chant to the end of the 19th century--about 1200 years--the only drum of significance in classical music was the timpani, a tunable membraphone whose primary function was not to establish or maintain a beat but to punctuate the dominant and tonic notes of a key, usually at cadence points. (Again, please don't quibble over the generality.) As a result, metronomic adherence to the beat is not a prime concern in classical music. In fact, it is largely shunned. Mechanical or unmusical performances inevitably have as their cause too strict an adherence to the beat. This is not to say that classical musicians "can't count" or "don't have rhythm," but for them, the beat is flexible; an implied underpinning with expressive wiggle-room rather than a sounded reality. During my study of classical composition, I spent years learning how to write expressive lines, combine them into complex counterpoint, and fit them into ever-changing harmonic structures (chords) through good voice leading and correct doublings. I also learned the instrumentology of woodwinds, brass, and strings. What I never learned was any sort of rhythmic theory equivalent to, say, my study of harmony. Nor was I taught the instrumentology of percussion beyond how to write for timpani. It wasn't a hole in my education. It simply wasn't deemed necessary. As a classical pianist, one of the first things I learned was the importance of "erasing the bar line," in other words, minimizing the natural accent on beat one of the bar, which, if it's too apparent, makes the music sound mechanical, and avoiding democratizing the remaining beats, which destroys the fluidity of the line and the ebb and flow of phrases. I was taught to use the metronome to establish the tempo of a piece, and to practice with it so that I didn't fall victim to accidental speeding up and slowing down. However, once the tempo had been internalized and the written duration of all the notes mastered, the metronome was shut off and the business interpretation began. In other words--and again, speaking very generally--I was taught that the point at which the regularly-sounded beat is subtracted is the point at which the art of classical interpretation starts. Two key features of classical performance reveal why classical and jazz musicians feel rhythm differently: agogic accents and rubato. An agogic accent is one where a note is given emphasis by virtue of being slightly longer than its notated value. Rubato is the expressive pushing and pulling of the tempo. Both are equally part of jazz and classical performance, but with a radical difference: in jazz, any disruption of the beat for expressive purposes must be compensated for or you lose the beat--fall out of the pocket, so to speak. The same is absolutely not true of classical performance. That aching agogic accent on the highest note of a yearning phrase actually shifts the position of the beat. In other words, the placement of the beat has to compensate for the agogic accent, not the other way around. The same is true of rubato, by which I mean the mostly unconscious easing or pushing of the tempo mid-phrase, not the extravagant and obvious rubati of Rubinstein playing Chopin. Rather than rubato having to catch up or slow down to maintain the beat, the beat itself gets shifted. Once more falling on a descriptive generalization: in jazz, the soloist follows the rhythm section, whereas in classical, the rhythm section follows the soloist. This is possible because, in classical music, beats are implied, not struck regularly. The great piano teacher Karl Ulrich Schnabel had a phrase to describe the dangers of prioritizing the beat over the line in classical performance, "Playing in time, not in rhythm"--one of the worst sins a classical performer can commit. The reason I feel constrained when playing jazz in an ensemble is because the genre doesn't permit the temporal flexibility to which I am accustomed, and which, by training, forms one of the chief tools in my expressive toolkit. (Obviously, playing a solo ballad isn't so much of a problem.) Constantly sticking to the beat seems to rob me of expressive freedom, like playing in black and white when my soul yearns for colour. There are solid reasons why I feel this way, which I hope I've clarified. I wish only that I could offer a similar first-hand account from the point of view of a jazz musician playing classical.

[@TotallyFictional]

Peter Schaffter Thanks very much for that very interesting analysis

Well written and insightful! As a choir singer for many years and participant in a number of collaborations with orchestras I’ve also noticed some differences in conducting between choir and orchestras. Most choirs tend to be much more on their toes and sing “on” the conductor’s beat where some orchestras tend to play somewhat “behind” the beat. (And I’m not talking about just the latency of getting sound out of a bass or French horn but actually starting playing later.) Now obviously conducting style varies a bit and not all of these ensembles were made up of professional musicians, but is this something you’ve noticed between jazz and classical conducting as well?

[@VictorM313]

Great answer! Really complements the video's idea makes a lot of sense to me now. Thanks!

[@kn00tcn]

it's more of a fixed grid of colors than like 'playing in black and white' i hope you're aware of 8th, 12th (triplet), 16th divisions, the grid isnt limited to what the drummer plays but the mathematical divisions of the tempo/bpm, you can get all kinds of interesting feelings/tensions by offsetting your notes or ending them longer than expected (when composed at least, much harder live unless you're used to thinking in rhythm) edit: it's like 8bit visual art, it can be very creative when attempted, it doesnt have to be simply a loss of resolution or being stuck on large pixels

[@Chaosdude341]

Wow. Today I learned that my style/understanding of music came from classical guitarists, and so this analysis actually really hits home with me. Thanks for writing it up, it was a really pleasant read.

[@danieljones4932]

Hey Adam. I am a classically trained bassist and have had a steady symphony gig for the past 7 years. I do however make most of my income playing in the "real world", being pop, rock, RnB, country and the like on electric bass. Having gone through the classical schooling and then relearning everything to be able to play in bands I can confirm, at least for me, that this is true. Tempo and rhythm have elasticity the for the majority of concert repertoire and other genres don't usually. I've been saying the same thing for years myself about this topic.

[@taylorboulton177]

Daniel Jones As a cellist who recently had to swing, I agree 100%

[@ACCPhil]

There's an old joke in classical orchestras: What do you do with the musician who can't play? Give him two sticks and stand him at the back What if he still can't play? Take away one of his sticks and stand him at the front

[@ozanmrcan]

bruh

[@NAETEMUSIC]

Lol this is such a hopelessly stupid comment

[@rachaelsmonkey94]

Hi Adam! I just have to say, it blew my mind to hear you count the musical example at 2:15 the way you were actually feeling it. I'm a trained classical musician and the whole animal that is jazz has always eluded me, and it wasn't really talked about in my theory classes in college. When you counted it the first time, in groups of three, it made total sense to me and that's probably exactly how I would have counted it. And then you counted it again and I was so blown away with how much easier and how much more sense it made to count it in 4/4 with the added eighth. Thanks for putting out great content, I've learned a lot! :)

[@pringelsthegamefreak]

Rachael Howie agreed

[@xerogh1821]

What makes your channel stand out is that you cover a wide array of music elements, all of which contribute to how a musician should approach their instrument/playing style. And this is just as important as "technique". The combination of diverse ideas/influences/techniques are what make music so special, no matter what instrument you play. I also liked how you re-visited the "Classical Musician Rhythm" video, rather than ignoring the comments you addressed them properly, and most importantly you mentioned "continued the conversation". That was key, and I was able to pick up a few new bits of musical knowledge from it. I can go to any number of great "Bass" oriented KZbin channels to help improve mechanics, agility, plucking, slapping' , thumping', whatever technique, but I come here to gain insight on what comes before fretting/plucking a string. What is in a musicians head before each note is what makes makes a musician and their sound unique. It took me years to understand this and I still (and always will) struggle with it. Continue to post new provocative ideas, anything to help us musicians bridge the gap between the technical and mental sides of music.

[@arghyadeepmitra3615]

Advantages of longer scale length: 1) more physical tension to keep low tuned strings tight 2) reduced PERCEIVED tension so the strings are nice and bendy (take a length of rope, pull it sideways from a point in the middle. See how far you can pull it. Now double the length of rope, pull again. You can pull it further now, can't you? Play a bass guitar with a 34'' scale with a 100 guage string as the low E. Try bending it. Now try the same with a 100 guage on a guitar with a 25.5'' scale, tuned to the same E on the same octave. You''ll be lucky if you don't break the machine head from the sheer stiffness at the nut, and even luckier if the string bends enough to go over the nut....) 3) The fatter a string, the more it behaves less like a string and more like a rigid rod. This is called inharmonicity, and results in the higher harmonics being out of tune with the fundamental. You can reduce it by increasing scale length. Bass being a very low tuned instrument with fat ass strings, needs longer scale lengths. ALL bass instruments (cello, upright bass, bass lutes) are longer scaled than their higher tuned counter parts.... 4) more fundamental, less overtones. Ie more bassy tone, to put it simply. Which is what makes a bass sound like a bass, more than the wood or the string gauges or the pickups. Which is why a 9 string guitar with a 30'' scale with a low C# will never sound like a bass guitar playing the same note on a 34'' scale. 34'' is standardized because, iirc, the first production electric bass had a 34'' scale, and it has become commonly accepted....there are many bass instruments with scale lengths longer or shorter....such as Dingwall basses with their 33-37'' fanned frets, Ibanez BTB's with their 35'' lengths, Kala U Basses with 23.5'' scales....the U bass only works at that scale because it uses polymer strings btw, not gonna work well with steel ones.... Typed this out in case someone finds this useful....

[@owena7434]

Student classical musician here and bassist: Here's my two cents. I agree that classical music feels the beat differently 100%, but it has more to it that just the reactionary conductor thing: Instead of locking the notes into metronomic beats, the rhythm expands and contracts based off of a given phrasing choice, with the volume. In fact, it is sometimes considered a flaw when some classical musicians play everything with the steadfast beat that rock has. It is much easier to show what I mean on an actual violin, but the subdivisions, though they don't drop the beat, when they are louder or quieter they could be slower or faster, expand, then contrast, and whatever, but they always come back to the original beat, i.e. dilation. Since classical is musical-phrase-oriented like this, the 2nd sixteenth note would through them off because it doesn't follow the dilated phrases that they are used to; it has to lock right in. So, when a classical musician wants to play exactly on beat like a drummer or bassist always does, it is possible, but takes some extra brainpower, which is what you said. Also, 9/8 in classical is almost always 3 groups of 3 :P.

[@jsifford]

Spot on with the 9/8 discussion. If you're not aware - the Bartok Sonata for Two Pianos and Percussion has sections with the pulse felt in both ways. The opening of the piece is in 9/8 with a "three groups of three" feel. Then, at the tranquillo at measure 84, he switches the feel to 2+2+2+3. When I performed it, I described the section as being in "4.5/4" time - four beats, the fourth of which is an 8th note extra long. Bartok even notates it this way, but some of the other musicians had a hard time wrapping their head around it and insisted on counting a strict 8th note pulse instead of feeling the quarter pulse that Bartok notates. And as a classically trained musician who spends a lot of time also working in theater pits, everything you said makes a lot of sense, both in this video and the other.

[@GogiRegion]

I started out playing classical violin for school orchestra, but also now play rock/metal on guitar and other instruments, and I think you nailed the differences (although I did know what you were talking about before you said it, so my interpretation was what I expected, so I may be biased). The people who didn’t like it probably don’t actually have experience with both methods and misinterpreted your points.

[@musological]

I'm a classically trained musician as well and playing self taught in modern rock bands on various instruments. It's a learning process to play with 'tightness' to a click (or drummer) rather than expressive rhythm and you were spot on and insightful with your video to my mind. Classical musicians are just snobbish and perhaps there is something of a "pretend that something you can't do is beneath you doing" at work there if some responded like you describe.

[@JoeServo]

15:40 I've always said, the drummer is the goalie of the band. No matter how good any/everybody else is, without a good one, you're sunk.

[@MichaelHankinson]

As a conductor - composer - studio musician writing everything from opera to classic rock symphonic scores you're completely correct. For a start when programming midi with a string library I generally move the string track many milliseconds ahead to allow for the slow response of the sample library. When conducting ballet (I've done over 800 performances) I like the orchestra to play exactly on the beat probably because we're trying to follow the physical actions of the dancers, ideally synchronise with them which is not ofter achieved and quite disconcerting - same with many complex contemporary scores where accuracy whilst many metre and time signature changes can be challenging. However with romantic repertoire or choral music I'm happy to have a more relaxed approach. I've had the experience of trying to "get" with the rhythm of a jazz ensemble - and struggled. I just don't have jazz chops - too much classical training. The term "push beat" is a term I've used to try to explain to a string section the feel required - sometimes my feeling is the swing of "a dinasours tail" - ouch 😎. Interesting topic and very partisan depending on your training.

[@Gary_W]

Adam Neely Getgood lolll...Seriosusly, great videos Adam, and I admire how you listen to many genres outside of jazz and kind of keeping an open mind on so many interesting stuffs.

[@nickcarncross6137]

Hi Adam, love you work! I just want to comment on your use of Mahler V. The opening to the piece is a trumpet solo and what bernstein was doing was simply conducting the pulse, having said that. They are actually perfectly in time, the trumpet doesn't come in until the and of 2 of the measure. My guess is that the pulse being so slow creates a lot of space which in turn makes it seem as if the performers are reacting to the conductor instead of performing with. I am a classically trained trumpeter who loves playing in both the jazz and classical settings, this is where my knowledge comes from.

[@ecksluss]

I literally just discovered you last night and I am a subscriber for life. You have a gift beyond the music in your broad educational approach. Thanks for the uploads!

[@tboorer]

Why were so many classical musicians angry? I’m a classical musician and you are spot on Adam. The opera pit has to be more on the beat, but symphony orchestras are as you described. And so many great classical musicians can’t swing for toffee. Especially strings. The reason classical musicians have trouble with the ‘feel’ of jazz is simply that they try to read and react rather than feel. Some never trust the feel, others (like myself) adapt over time. Don’t take the video down. It was spot on!

[@76JStucki]

Tony eBoneProject I was angry because I find it insulting. The other video, and this one as well, comes off as “jazz musicians have better rhythm than classical musicians.” It’s bullshit. I’m a classical musician and I can play or count anything, any rhythm, with any note grouping. And it’s not like I’m some weird anomalous guy in the classical realm. Probably so many got angry because they know it’s a false accusation.

[@NotFine]

​@@76JStuckioh People assuming and getting mad about it

[@russ6541]

@@76JStuckiyou’ve misinterpreted the whole argument then

[@TatianaRacheva]

I’m glad you didn’t take that video down. As a classically-trained musician, and pianist, I noticed our lack of precision in certain areas that we just don’t value as highly as other areas.

[@iconoclastic-fantastic]

I can relate to being a classically trained musician without a true sense of an internal pulse. I was a violinist for a long time before switching to classical voice, and am now trying to learn guitar. I notice that when practicing guitar with a metronome, it is very difficult for me to actually STAY on beat with the metronome, because for some reason I can't internalize the beat. It's frustrating to say the least, because for as long as I've been a musician, it feels defeating to lack the sense of rhythm that seems to be one of the most basic, foundational facets of musicianship. Of course, this isn't the case for all classical musicians. But I think it is kind of a problem that should be addressed in some way. I'm enjoying playing the guitar but I feel like I'm almost too far gone in terms developing that true feeling of an internal pulse, since I've gone on for so long without it.

[@pringelsthegamefreak]

Avery Simmons I have that exact same problem too! I can't stay on beat for the life of me

[@georgemcnaughton8238]

Metronomes are hard to play guitar to try a simple drum pattern its much more natural and intuitive for me at least

[@BradRau]

Keep the video up. I am a classical guitarist who is randomly into Jimi Hendrix. I found to my surprise I couldn't even come close to replicating these rhythms. This was a surprise for me because I have always been 'good' with syncopated south American music and I practice with a metronome everyday. Then I saw your video. (your video came at the perfect time, man maybe your right about those jazz guys being on time haha) It was then I realized that the very cord values on what it means to have a good rhythm is very much dependent on what style you are playing. Even within 'classical music' my approach to baroque rhythm is different then classical or romantic. Even within baroque the courtant might have a bit more 'swing' that a allemande. It is very difficult for a fish to realize it is surrounded by water. The very cord values that are so fundamental to our understanding of music need to be questioned. Otherwise we are blinded by our own believes to the point we can't even tell we are blind, and we think we can see with clarity. Surrounding yourself with only classical musicians with the same bias might lead you to believe certain things are 'true.' The video might be better presented as showing differences without calls to judgement. Edmund Burke believed that one should critic a work of art based on its own standards and goals. For example do not critics a Chinese restaurant just because you were in the mood for Mexican, rather compare it to other Chinese restaurants who follow the same measuring stick. But as a classical musicians I am not offended. You might have sounded a tiny bit arrogant at times, but your a musicians. Compared to hanging with classical musicians this is pretty mild. I have gained a lot from this video personally.

[@Disc147]

On the note of taking breaks I got fed up with guitar and bass for about six months after eighteen months of really brutal practice in a really toxic band and I pretty much undid all the work I put in those six months of hating the instrument and refusing to play. After reflection it reminds me of something my father once said "A beginner drummer who practices an hour a day will be a competent drummer in five years, a beginner drummer who practices five hours a day will hate the drums in a year"

[@Disc147]

Cheers guys

[@Tabu11211]

I watch your video on brightness every 3 months. Every time I get something new and directaly usable! Your guitarist bass lessons are also super helpful!

[@papa28100]

it's awesome that you still stuck to your idea, whether people disagreed or agreed. Shows that you truly believe this is knowledge, and not just an opinion that's brought about from bias.

[@SPLEclipse]

I'm glad you didn't take that video down; it showed up in my suggested videos and now Ive been binging on your channel. Thanks for all the fantastic content! As an aside - I've always wondered why every conductor I've seen "leads" the orchestra, even if only slightly. Having only played popular music I couldn't comprehend how that would work.

[@reaganharper447]

I really hope that the internet doesn't get you too jaded, Adam. These videos are excellent, especially from my perspective, having done an undergrad degree in music and then putting it on the shelf for 6 years. Nice to hear music discussed and dissected on this level again. Keep fighting the good fight, my friend!

[@n7275]

I'm a classical musician. I liked your video. There's definitely a difference in rhythmic feel. I listen to a lot of metal and punk, but I play mostly baroque violin solo pieces. I think (but I can't find it) C.P.E Bach wrote something on how note lengths were not strict fractional proportions. I would imagine that the necessity of syncopation and weird time signatures increases as a piece of music becomes more metronomic. When it comes right down to it, it's probably all dependent on whether your cultural ancestors made reed flutes or drums.

[@cecilia.santana]

Matthew Hume Hey! Your comment offers an interesting point of view. Do you know where I may be able to find these writings by Bach? Thank you!

[@lennic95]

I agree with you that the performance is different but he implied that classical music isn't totally square out of incapability and not musical choice... and that's extremely condescending and arrogant.

[@LootFragg]

Nah, he didn't. He pointed at classical musicians often not sounding good against a drum beat. Then he said they are capable musicians but they do not anticipate the beat if they haven't practiced exactly that. He didn't say classical musicians can't keep time. He never said that and it kinda sucks to see people repeat that misconstruction.

[@recrystal]

I am a classical viola player with a bass player background and EDM producer, I really enjoyed your previous video about the classical musicians rhythm feeling. I think you just "scratched" the topic, but it's probably a very important one, especially in the music pedagogy. As classical musicians I really think that we should develop our rhythm differently and in a more "open minded" way. Still until the early music era, they probably felt rhythm more "groovie" than in the later music, many compositions were in fact based on historical dances. I think this is a topic that worth a huge discussion, I hope you'll go deeper with other videos. We should definitely study and practice also the Dionisiac aspect of the music...

[@PauLtus_B]

Smart thing you said about "boring" bass playing. Players want to play, but this doesn't always result in the best music.

[@StratoCaster5632]

I'm a classical musician, and I absolutely love that original video! Maybe I still disagree a bit about the conducting, but I think you make good arguments both for and against.

[@ggauche3465]

Thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience Adam. I would probably never have come across Knower without your recommendation and that alone has made your vids worthwhile, apart from everything else!

[@aaronorel3254]

hey, you responded to my comment! lol, I honestly don't remember what I was thinking when I said I play primarily jazz, but it's not really true. I play jazz, but I am mainly a classical bassist. coming from that background, I found your video on how jazz and classical musicians feel rhythm differently as nothing short of enlightening. I really don't like the mentality that classical music is superior to every other genre, because it simply isn't. in fact, the biggest thing I've noticed after starting to branch out more into other genres, as well as studying theory and ear training in school, is that all types of music is far more closely related than so many people realize. my overall musicianship and my understanding of music in general has skyrocketed since I started seriously learning how to comp through jazz changes. I don't think we should strive to identify as classical or jazz or rock musicians, I think we should just be musicians ☺

[@Laura-qo9cc]

Adam, I found your KZbin randomly while on a binge, and I have to say, you have one of the highest quality channels on KZbin when it comes to music theory. I think the phrase "Vsauce, but for music" applies really well. You've changed my thinking on many different levels and made me appreciate things I didn't before. Just offering my appreciations for what you do and wanted you to know its made a big impact on people :D!

[@Laura-qo9cc]

i like to think im at least partially responsible for the vsauce parody in the next video :D

[@ArsenicFault]

Low key, I'm a classically trained musician insofar as I am a musician, and I gained a fair amount of clarity from your cleaving of the "brand" of rhythm between classical and other musicians. I can see what you're saying, and as someone who only recently found you on youtube I'm glad you didn't take that video down.

[@gerabassman]

I haven't find other channel like yours, the topics you talk about are not very commonly addressed, but most of them had come to my mind occasionally before but never read about them. Very interesting videos, keep the good work, God bless you.

[@CugnoBrasso]

Subscribing to this channel has probably been the best thing I've done in a while, I'm totally addicted! Thank you for what you're doing!

[@Reeal15]

As an undergraduate Music Education major/sax student, I second the notion that you should consider "cashing in" on your wealth of knowledge, academically speaking. You have clearly done your homework and know what you're talking about, and your videos are quite helpful to an undergraduate trying to supplement his understanding of music to be more scientific, philosophic, and generally go 'deeper' with music. I would certainly be interested in any published academic work you were to generate Keep up the good work!

[@danteort]

The comment preceding this is a lot more elegant than what I’m writing here, but I’d also like to add my brief experience as well. I’m not a professional musician, but I did study cello performance in college so am classically trained. I distinctly remember one of my first string quartet coaching sessions focusing on this very subject. And it was quite clear: classical musicians are taught to “move time” where, as Adam’s prior video points out in the Ravel example, the rhythm ebbs and flows. That is quite deliberate on the part of the musicians, and the evidence is in the fact that the quartet moves time TOGETHER. Also agreeing with the “erase the bar lines” mentality. In fact, often as an exercise we are taught to start with just the plain notes without any connections or bars, and to literally pencil in the divisions of the musical line ourselves. Think poetry: even though there are stanzas, to read poetry “properly” you often “go past” the stanzas and let the rhythm of the words and phrases guide the timing. So yeah, I’d agree that a follow-up video comparing the ideas, with a professional classical musician’s perspective, would be helpful.

[@hbloops]

The video about feeling rhythm differently is the reason I found this channel, so I'm very glad you made it!

[@cezerelecrucio9717]

You talked about drummers in this video, and I'm a drummer! Here's my input. Time is definitely the most important thing. Adaptability is again, important. However, I would wager that dynamics are more important than confidence; you need confidence in order for effectively show dynamics.

[@stephenfreeman7808]

Im primarily a guitarist. I dig what you said about the action on a bass. It was at that moment that a thought occoured to me... It's pretty darn entertaining, informative, healthy for my music, and just plain crazy that I can sit here and listen to someone talk complete nonsense that, somehow, my brain always receives as perfectly sensible information... hell of a job

[@crashzero6517]

I'm glad your still into making the videos i only just found you :) and the way you talk about music, its helped me so much and is genuinely thought provoking. also love the song at the beginning i always watch it twice \m/

[@piternoster]

Hi Adam, I work as a percussionist in orchestra. Conclusion in your previous video was really obvious - I am constantly frustrated about people (especially strings) playing way behind conductor. It's ok in classical music most of the time (not every time), but when it comes to play something more groovy I literally suffer, cause I have to throw my internal pulse away and try to stay with the rest of the orchestra. And it's supposed to be other way round... very frustrating. Thank You for putting this obvious true into words. I showed your video to some of my colleagues musicians and now we're trying to fix this, but it's really hard. You're really smart guy! Greetings from Poland, cheers!

[@SprengersKoben]

I myself am formally trained as both a classical percussionist and a jazz/classical bass player and interestingly enough, I have the exact opposite experience of Mr. Schaffter (below). I have thought long about this distinction in approach of rhythm myself and I found Mr. Neely's contribution delightfully insightful. Whenever I play in a jazz environment, especially smaller instrumental ensembles, I feel rhythmically liberated, even more so after having played a certain amount of classical (be it chamber of symphonic) music. Allow me to elaborate on my experiences for the sake of discussion. It is true that the rhythmic dimension of classical music is rather elastic and flexible, to say the least. I've heard and played performances where I would have written down a different rhythmic notation altogether, even up to the time signature, if I hadn't known the music being played. But hey, as interpreting music goes, I believe that any musician/conductor is entitled to bending and molding a score as freely as they find fit. However, I actually feel rather limited within these "temporally flexible" environments, since I mostly play in ensembles, in which the various sections and the musicians within those sections are supposed to play together. So the conductor might approach a certain phrase with certain temporal, even rhythmical, freedom, yet all of the musicians are still bound to that interpreted rhythm/tempo nonetheless, be it an agogic accent or a rather rubato interpretation. Now, when it comes to jazz music, I can understand that the pulse, or beat, might feel somewhat dictatorial to those who are used to play around freely with temporal flexibility (and as a solo piano player, that's about as free as it gets). However, at a highly advanced level, jazz bands can achieve the ability to approach tempo and rhythm as freely as a classical ensemble might do (my go-to reference here would be Miles' amazing 2nd quintet), yet even within a fixed pulse, I always find an unsurpassed amount of freedom in playing jazz, because of its freedom of choice. Jazz music often doesn't work with written scores, and even when it does, it mostly serves as a starting point for a band's rehearsal, and the sheet music might just as well be cast aside as soon as the pieces are internalized (in this sense, a jazz musician's score has a similar role as a classical musician's metronome). My approach of written or non-written jazz music is more or less the same: whenever I read a score in such an environment, I deduce the ideas that (I believe) the composer tries to convey, and insert them into actual music with relative liberty, just as I would with playing standards with regards to their tradition. Exactly this freedom is what I find extremely liberating in playing jazz music. To stay within the parameter of rhythm: within the fixed grid of the pulse, I am free to draw out my own story, to play every rhythmic cell precisely the way I see them, I am free to leave a much or as little space as I redeem tastefully fit or to simply create variations on prior choices. But most importantly, within all of these different choices, I am free to engage with other players' choices, or syncopate against them. And it is exactly this shifting interaction of personal choices which creates that specific kind of synergetic energy which typifies any decent jazz band. So the very reason why I feel fairly constrained when playing classical music in an ensemble is because the genre doesn't permit the personal input for which jazz, and some other genres, is known. And this is arguably the most favorite expressive tool of my kit. Hope my contribution has been useful, or at least interesting, to some.

[@EricAndThe]

About the ego of a bass player, that is why Prince is one or my favourite musicians and one of my biggest inspirations. As a true multi-instrumentalist I feel for him his music was always first, not the instruments or the musicians. For example there is a story about Kiss, how he during composing and recording thought something was a little off and only figured it out once he left the bass part off for good. That is an extreme example, but I hope you get what I mean about him. And that might me one of the reasons he is really underrated as a guitarist. He had the chops and showed them occasionally, but only if the music asked for it. Sign O' the Times is a good example of music coming first, the whole album just feels so balanced. And about vaporwave and the nostalgia towards all things plastic and so on, maybe that is just a sign that we are moving to the next era. Great content, please do make these longer videos in the future, I enjoyed it. The people who watch your videos come up with great questions and thoughts and I respect how you make it a conversation, not only an answer.

[@HypnoticPattern]

your prev video on it was awesome. As a pianist who played classical, and then later devoting all my time to jazz, I've come to apply a lot of what I learned in Jazz to classical, and I get disappointed when I don't hear average piano or keyboard players not grooving the same way. This was the first time I've had someone sort of describe with words what I've felt, so I really vibed with this and the prior video.

[@prrighstocktabergate2350]

Funny thing. I am from Russia and I do know Swanne River. At the Moscow College Of Improvisational Music, where I'm currently studying, Swanee River is teached to all newcomer guitarists. There's a saying, dating to Soviet times, that says "Сегодня ты играешь джаз - а завтра родину продашь!". Literal translation is "Today you are playing jazz, and tomorrow you will sell your homeland". And so, the beginner jazz guitarists star their long journey into jazz music by learning by heart the official state song of Florida of the EVIL UNITED STATES). Ain't that ironic. P.S. I can't speak for all of my fellow students and musicians, but many of us have deep respect for your channel and your music. Keep up the good work!

[@VikoTheBassist]

What are your thoughts on what Les Claypool did with the bass guitar and the alternative rock genre? Do you think Primus was a step in any particular direction in the world of bass playing? I was just wondering, as I am fascinated with what Les figured out how to do on the bass guitar.

[@TheStuF]

Yes, and also Rockette Morton (Mark Boston).

[@mirceagogoncea]

Hey Adam! I very much appreciate you taking the time to address the points discussed in your video on classical musicians earlier. I still feel like you did not address the two points of paramount importance that were left out of your original video, namely that 1) not all classical musicians play orchestra instruments; and 2) classical music consists of an extremely wide array of styles, in some of which rhythm and phase synchronicity are the very driving force of the musical discourse. That being said, as a classical musician (that does not play an orchestra instrument ;) ) and huge jazz fan, I do entirely agree that there is an elitist feeling of superiority in certain classical circles - one that absolutely disgusts me. I feel you invited this sort of rhetoric by making an overly simplistic (and therefore wrong) argument that "this is what it's like in jazz, and this is what it's like in classical music", but I do agree with you that the discussion sparked by your video is a good thing. Thanks for addressing some of the comments on your original video and take care! :)

[@surgeeo1406]

I love that bit about performing live, it's so great. "Whoops, that's a mistake, can't worry about it, gotta keep playing."

[@littlefishbigmountain]

CANT STICK AROUND HAVE TO KEEP MOVIN ON WHAT LIES AHEAD ONLY ONE WAY TO FIND OUT

[@oniuqasaile]

I'm a classical musician, and I LOVED that video. In fact, that video led me to your other videos, which led me to love your channel, and consequently, subscribe.

[@davidcfc95]

Great to see your channel finally taking off Adam! it was only a matter of time :) Peace, from Glasgow

[@sweetb879]

Love these videos, you always inspire!

[@AntiChris]

My favorite part of watching the Q&A videos is watching Adam come up with new and interesting ways to tell the commenters to fuck off. Nice Guitar to Bass video. Really helpful since I started messing around with it.

[@Doormin]

love what ur doing man I've learned so much, even though I play piano haven't even touched a bass, you've really elevated my music theory and I love your videos

[@funanimal4]

Happy post thanksgiving. I will jump on patreon. You are head and shoulders more valuable (to me, anyway) than those I already support. Very articulate and thoughtful-thought-provoking and well produced (lighting?) vid channel!! kudos

[@salac1337]

hey adam. i think you have a good point. i play trumpet for over 11 years now and i played in wind ensembles and mixed orchestras and have to say that those are like night and day. strings have a totally different feel of rythm especially those who are not as expierienced as others. last week i played with both in a very short amount of time and so the difference was even more feelabel than normally so i agree with your argument.

[@SteveGaddTasmusic]

Even when I don't agree with you Adam.. you set a train of thought...a series of questions and research and practice ideas into place.. I am not a bass player but I get more from your lessons than almost anyone around...

[@AnnaH-qt9nl]

I’m absolutely positively irrevocably convinced that Mr. Neely is fully confident and well versed in what to do with four fingers and his left hand. #provemewrong

[@jani14jani]

Adam even though i'm a guitarist who likes to make too many bass jokes sometimes i have to say that your videos are way more entertaining and interesting than any of the KZbin guitarists videos.

[@feilik]

So glad you mentioned Billy Childs, I met him at a music event I played a decade or so ago and checked out his music but had since completely forgotten the guy's name. Heading off to buy some of his music.

[@jiroumi]

Please do not take down that video on classical musician and rhythm. I found that personally helpful giving me insight into why I struggled rhythmically with playing in a contemporary church band... I had noticed when I recorded myself against a click track I was consistently behind the beat. Which is fine solo.. not really good when it's with other people And it was thus that video that got me hooked onto your channel and your various thought pieces and lessons Also, if you would split the lightning into 3 scenes in this video, I personally like scene 2 the best Thanks again!

[@Pianomagicdude]

Whenever you were addressing the polytonality question concerning "playing outside the key" in jazz - the first person that came to mind was Billy Childs. It's crazy that you brought him up just a few questions later! A couple of people have told me that they can't listen to Billy Childs' solos because he strays outside of the key often. I personally love it, I just wish I knew how to incorporate that kind of stuff without sounding like I don't know what I'm doing! Also speaking of multiphonics - I think Fnugg for solo Tuba by Øystein Baadsvik is a good introduction. For a jazzier context - trombone player Wycliffe Gordon uses multiphonics a good bit in his soloing, and he spent a bit of time discussing it at a clinic I attended. Even though it's a bit of a niche novelty thing (and usually sounds terrible), singing harmony while playing scales on the tuba at the same time helped me a lot with recognizing intervals.

[@Julienbodartmusique]

Yo Adam ! First, thanks for the vids, keep up the good work ! As a multi-instrumentist player, both orchestral and non-orchestral, I think that you're right when you say both don't feel rhythm the same way. Although, people should stop thinking that you're saying classical musician can't feel rhythm. Also, please make a longer intro, love the clip, love the song, do something with it ! :D

[@timeastwoodbagpiper]

Hi, your card for Program by Wim Leyson says to find it on 'Bancamp'. Either there is a new site I've never heard of or you miss-spelled Bandcamp. great video as usual, I agree with you on this topic! thanks for the expansion and tightening of your argument :)

[@rdoetjes]

Finally something that me as an amateur luthtier can answer. It's actually ironic that a guitar player comes up with a question about neck scale lengths. I never heard a guitarist argue before what a Gibson looses with it's 24,75"vs Fender's 25.5" or an average Dobro at 22.5" =) (which is very little -- especially in electric) The matter of the fact is that sound wise it makes very little difference, like Adam said it has to do with hamonics. With smaller necks the higher harmonics are not as profound. This is mainly why a Gibson sounds a bit warmer and a Fender a bit louder in the high ends. But those harmonics are there and you can bring them out with clever BP eq. The biggest thing you'll notice is comfort. A shorter neck makes strings more "floppy", less tension (as Adam said). I prefer 25,5" guitar necks because I often play in a drop tuning which already makes the strings more floppy. Doing that on a Gibson would require even bigger strings that the .010 probably .012 which most likely would require me to vile the nut... So basically pick the scale of the neck that is the most comfortable for you. Comfort wins over sound, not the least because when you are comfortable you like to play the instrument and learn it's finesses and get the best out of it.

[@iamtheiconoclast3]

K so I guess I'm a bit late to the party but I've just discovered inside//outside thanks to this video. Was literally reduced to utterances of compound profanity in expressing how much I loved Anthem on first listening. Immediately recommended to two people and will buy the moment Bandcamp stops glitching on me. Well done sir. I've known you for ~2 years now as a font of fascinating musical knowledge, but it's always so much better when our music educators are actually breaking ground and producing interesting stuff of their own.

[@iamtheiconoclast3]

p.s. Not only is the new Sungazer album incredible... I also stumbled upon a completely different band also called Sungazer while looking for it, and they're pretty damn good too. So... double thanks there!

[@andrewt248]

As a musician and audio engineer, there are a lot of considerations that go into the level of instruments in a mix, not the least of which is personal preference, but the other MAJOR consideration that comes to mind is how much of the overall energy (loudness) that can be contained in a digital audio file can be used up by low frequency content. The more you turn the bass up, the quieter everything else is going to get, and it can get out of balance very quickly.

[@timothyser9967]

Love that this channel is growing.

[@isaacwimmer4097]

as someone who doesn't listen to any electronic music, im really digging your sungazer stuff. Grooves hard

[@masonthomassax]

Great videos man, it's evident that you're putting plenty of effort and time into these. Thanks for doin' the lords work out there

[@olderchannel3583]

I watched your "classical musicians feels rhythm/tempo differently" video. I am a classically trained organist with a bachelor college degree, and I just tell you this, because I have first hand experience of the thing, and I think you are absolutely right about it. Actually we are TRAINED to feel and think about rhythm and tempo that way, and for me first time (at age 7) it was hard to get, because it feels quite unnatural (at least for a few months for sure). The jazz/pop and anything similar feels much more natural, because it FEELS, and NOT "THINKS" if you know what I mean. :) I think classical rhythm and tempo is too much "brain controlled" and jazz/pop/etc rhythm tempo are "feeling controlled". I don't know how to put this into (English) words, but I think you get what I mean, right? :) Anyway thanks for your fantastic vids! Many of my classical musician friends (who tend to live in a "classical bubble") should watch them. (no joke)

[@CashlessCaptures]

I'm a classical trombonist and that video didn't come off as predatory. The delay from the baton is actually much more prominent in Europe than in the US and I kinda gave that to ya haha. I personally loved the video, it got my sub.

[@porteous42]

Adam, one of my favorite things about your channel is the great music you have introduced me to, such as Billy Childs and Joseph C. Phillips. You have exceptional taste in music! Hsve you considered making your own music podcast?

[@wolfgang1626]

I played/learned piano by ear since I was 3, started Classical at 6 (currently working towards LCM Dip, went to Trinity Laban studied Composition) - at 15 I learnt guitar by sitting in front of Kerrang and Scuzz trying to learn every song that came on by ear. My point being that if it wasn't for classical and knowing scales and intervals, it would have taken me a whole lot longer to pick it up. Adam is totally right about classical musicians who have only listened/learned classical music and do nothing but imitate their teacher.

[@BarnieSnyman]

I'm was somewhat surprised to find out that that video was met with such hostility. I regard myself a classical pianist (with a taste for "classical-like" modern music), but didn't find anything offensive in that video. On the contrary... your thoughts were quite fascinating. If I really wanted to, I probably can find something to disagree with, but hey, we're all entitled to our opinions/views, right? Plus we might also learn something from each other. I used to frown on most not-classical music (I still do with some music styles), but I've grown enough to appreciate that its just a matter of taste. One style is not "better" than the other, simply just different. In the same way I can hear something special in a classical piece that would make most people rip off their ears, so too can someone else hear something special in a piece that I am unable to comprehend as actually being music. On the subject of different styles... how much overlap do you think there is between classical and jazz? Marc-Andre Hamelin (quite possibly one of the most jaw-dropping pianists alive today in my own OPINION) playing Nikolai Kapustin's music brought this question to mind.

[@eriknorman1742]

I'm a contemporary composer turned singer songwriter. I feel nothing. lol. Great channel, Adam!

[@slwankaedbey775]

Hi Adam, a Question for a Q&A : I've always said to my self that sight-reading doesn't give the piece its perfection, there are always little details that after memorizing the piece and playing it like a hundred time professionally you could master these little details and that in my experience gives the listener a lot of thinking for months and years and still discovering new beautiful details. on the contrary, sight-reading ignores details and yet it still comes up in tests, do you think music teachers and professors should make students care about details mastering rather than sight-reading. ( I'm a piano player from a classical music background ). great content!

[@insanerotta5332]

Sorry in advance for spamming the same comment in multiple places, but I reaaaally would like an answer. Here goes: I really liked the idea of getting into the mind set of playing bass you brought forth in your 'How to play bass (for guitarists)' video. I'm a bass player myself and also started with bass as my first instrument. Every once in a while I dabble with guitar and some guitarists have looked me weird and/or chuckled a bit. They tell me I play the guitar funny, as if I'm trying to play it like a bass or something... I've taught myself basic guitar techniques and so on, but the "problem" seems to persist. It would be great if you, and maybe a guitarist friend of yours could make a 'How to play guitar (for bassist)' video. Maybe you could discover that guitarist mindset that I need to chug riffs right. :)

[@captainsmitty353]

obligatory comment. i enjoy your videos

[@thederpyunicorn306]

As a guitar player, I find it interesting and frustrating when I’m singing in the university choir and I’m directly locked with the pulse that the director has set, but everyone else seems to be slightly behind… as if they’re reacting to what he’s doing and not feeling the pulse. It’s an observation that I’ve never been able to figure out the reason for so thanks Adam for the insight into this phenomenon

[@whyidontknow7113]

As a classical musician, I can say that much of classical music is so focused on rubato that locking into a grid can be very difficult. This is still a struggle for me.

[@AceSuares]

That video realy got me into all the Adam Neely stuff.

[@RCAvhstape]

Playing live is what it's all about for me. I love doing electronic music at home and all that, but playing bass with a rock band live is awesome, there's nothing like it. Getting that immediate feedback from an audience, knowing that you're communicating directly to them on the spot, that's a rush. I don't really understand any musician who doesn't like to do that at least once in a while. It's interesting that the Beatles quit doing live shows for the last part of their history to do all studio work, but after breaking up all of them went back to playing live.

[@pixelatedparcel]

Helium Road For what it's worth, the Beatles stopped playing live because they literally could not hear themselves playing over the non-stop screaming and had stopped evolving as musicians as a direct consequence. Feeling like a circus act instead of like musicians probably also nudged them away from live gigs and into the studio.

[@StephenTack]

The female proclivity to discern color better than males is an "on average" thing. The genes that control the center wavelengths of the color sensing cone cells (especially for red) in retina are on the X chromosome, and so there are many more men with messed up color perception to some degree. Interestingly there is some evidence that a VERY small number of females might have a 4th cone cell (centered at a slightly different wavelength), and therefore possess a slightly superhuman ability to differentiate colors. So, no link between the mechanism for variations in color vision between the genders, and intonation/pitch perception. Cheers!

[@littlefishbigmountain]

There’s always overlap over the abilities of males vs females. It’s always an on avg thing. Guys are, on average, stronger, but that doesn’t mean that a weak guy is stronger than a strong girl

[@SladeBallard]

We agree on drummers! I've always said the "best" instrumentist in any band should always be the drummer. Considering he's the one most people will be able to tell if he fucks up, even people without music knowledge. There's nothing that throws me off the most when I'm watching a live band and the drummer misses a beat.

[@MarcCarriage121]

I found your KZbin site by accident, and it has been very helpful to me so far. I am a guitar player, and I started on Bass but didn't stay with it. I do find that educated musicians are more superior over people like myself who is self taught. I love all types of jazz & blues . sorry I am rambling. how learning bass guitar help me in my 6 string playing. I do find my self leaning into funky jazz grooves sometimes. any advice on integrating bass, with guitar.

[@DEADN8]

Periphery just happens to be my favorite band and it surprised me when you mentioned them!

[@telecasteroil]

So true , I always tell my students the drummer drives the band , I’ve gotten the strangest looks from my guitar students 😄

[@realraven2000]

4:04 I wouldn't say classical musicians have a superior sense of rhythm, tone and melody. but two things that they are better at is freedom of timing and dynamics. such nuances are often completely ignored by the popular music production process, where loudness and beat are over emphasize and somewhat dumb down the audience.

[@aidanrabinowitz6555]

Whoah. Thanks a lot for replying to my "good drummer?" comment-I really appreciate your answer as a bassist.

[@popeyesailor9571]

The fact that i played in drum corps all my life and then get comments that people are surprised how good time I have especially after displaying chops is hilarious. We always had to play with sticks clicks or metronomes.

[@TheElectricFlamingos]

Hey Adam! I am a guitar and bass teacher down in Arizona. You've mentioned in previous videos that you've taught private lessons before. I was just wondering if there are any music education tips and strategies you could share with your viewers. I'm sure there are other music educators who watch your channel and would appreciate hearing about your ideas/techniques. P.S. I absolutely love your videos and I always forward your channel to every new student I get.

[@milesjjoseph4567]

If you were making an EDM song in orchestral version. what would you use as a beat?(kick, snare, hat, clap). would you even use a beat? since orchestras use conductors to keep maintenance. I just was thinking about this before i became a musician(piano) and learned anything about music theory. I love that EDM and Orchestral music are similar and that you talked about it:)

[@ChristopherRoss.]

Personally, it would depend on the composition of the orchestra. Generally, I wouldn't use a steady beat, but I would accent with the percussion section. Tympani, or slap stick, or tubular bells if the beat is tonal... something along those lines.

[@squigglycircle]

You might want to check out what the Helsinki City Orchestra did with Sandstorm a couple of years ago: watch?v=07Cobo7xCkY

[@kezzamedic]

I play a little piano but I love this channel :)

[@JosephAnidjar]

nolly actually mixes all the periphery stuff and he describes what he does to the bass as "where the guitar tone ends the bass begins. and you can actually hear to bass quite clearly in their tunes. and obviously its louder during the playthrough

[@williamadams1105]

Great content as always. I am a graduate of Musician's Institute Guitar program and although I felt the education I received was fairly comprehensive and expensive, I could never make my music career full time. Such as "most" other musician's I encountered were either a flake, drug addicted or were only interested in perusing their own musical vision. How do you deal with similar types of musician's? I felt that the more I kept trying, the more I was disappointed in their motivations and drive to succeed in an incredibly over saturated market. Again, this was LA so maybe East coast had a better environment. Thanks!

[@nikohumavoid]

My fiancé has a degree in classical music. I cut my teeth jumping straight into playing in bands and didn't study music until much later. When working with rhythm/groove related stuff she always comes to me for help. She also had to "learn" memorizing song structures whereas I never had problem with that. Yet she can play anything at first sight from sheet music and is technically far more advanced. Just trying to say that we're all wired differently depending on the surrounding and its demands.

[@Maude02000]

Adam Getgood on Remain Indoors. So good.

[@anthonygaudino971]

Hey, Adam, I've been playing upright bass for about 10 years (although you probably wouldn't know it from my level of play, lol), and I recently joined a band playing bass guitar. Do you have any tips for someone transitioning from upright to electric as I can only seem to find videos going the other way around? I know it's not necessarily your expertise but yours is one of the most interesting and knowledgeable bass channels I have come across and I figure you might have some insight.

[@keinGenug]

i'm a classical musician and I liked a lot that video, is sad to see how shallow minded some people are

[@kamilee4123]

isaac grandas I know right? Really doesn't help the idea that classical musicians are kinda stuck up huh.

[@markl4730]

This would be understandable if Adam had said “better” way Jazz musicians, but he didn’t.

[@SeraphSeraphim]

Woo, Nolly! My understanding of Periphery's mixes is that the high end of the bass extends up to right where the low end of the guitar is so the instruments sit nicely in the mix on top of each other, and the heavily distorted bass tone is more difficult to discern from the guitar than a more traditional bass tone. In a straight up rhythm section, a lot of what I'd heard is actually the bass. In Periphery's The Bad Thing, the bridge section really shows their particular style of interplay between guitar and bass. P.S. Could you see yourself with a Dingwall?