Q&A Part 1 - What real historical fights looked like & British 19thC accounts of kung fu

[@MrMiddleWick]

Kitty be like Hello guys, Cat Easton here.

[@0hn0haha]

+scholagladiatoria I was looking for those sources you posted; can't find, and I searched FB and your website. If senpai shall notice me, can I has sources? I want readz.

[@1johnnygunn]

I could get some A1 catnip growing wild here in the states, let me know. LOL

[@JayTheRed602]

I've been a police officer for several years and I can tell you that in almost every case I've seen or been involved in fights are ugly, violent, and usually over very quickly. It's difficult to explain but even properly applied martial arts techniques rarely look graceful.

[@polymath7]

xxsinnirxx How many fights have you seen as police officer? I would think they almost always occur _before_ the police arrive.

[@JayTheRed602]

Unfortunately they often occur WITH the police.

[@polymath7]

xxsinnirxx That's not a fight in the vast majority of cases. Perhaps we mean something different by "fight".

[@loyalsausages]

Excellent job as always, Matt! Looking forward to your next video.

[@ville307]

In schools we are taught from western perspective and most descriptions are from western sources. When we colonized we looked down on natives and nowadays we think them more as exotic and many ways superior to our own. What I want to know what people in places like Africa, Americas and Asia thought about Europeans. How did they view our culture, traditions and fighting?

[@thejoojoo9999]

8:25 Just wanted to say that the reason that there were more boxers than kickers is because Shanghai and Hong-Kong are more southern cities (well Shanghai in the middle, but still) and there has always been a historical differentiation between northern and southern schools of Kung-Fu. Northern styles generally more long-ranged and use more kicks, notably high-kicks, while southern styles (Wing Chun is a typical exemple) generally are more short-distanced, close combat, more focused on hand and arm techniques, and when they kick, it's mostly low-kicks under the waist. There is even a saying that goes "Northern leg, southern fist" Just wanted to throw that in there.

[@bernieeod57]

A Marine Veteran from Guadalcanal recalled "Before we landed we were briefed never to engage the Japanese in hand to hand combat They are all experts in Martial arts! Well, the first time we encountered them, we found that to be false".

[@varanid9]

And now, decades later, we call that stereotyping.

[@varanid9]

Your summary of southern Chinese boxing arts and their similarity to western boxing is spot on. Most "martial artists" don't even know this. The various styles of Fujian boxing, White Crane, Southern Praying Mantis, White Eyebrow, 5 Ancestors Fist, Dragon Shape Boxing, all were really just different schools of the same core principles (which were startlingly similar to Western boxing) and kicking was almost non-existent. These were civil styles, often referred to, with some contempt, as "village Kung Fu", as they were practiced by peasants for brawling amongst each other and any relation to Shaolin or ancient warriors was purely mythical.

[@1cme1]

if you are really interested in how a medieval sword fight between unskilled combatants might look, i recommend simply searching for modern videos of people fighting with machetes. it's not that dissimilar to a fight with messers or falchions, the biggest difference being a complete lack of hand protection. obviously don't do this if you are squeamish.

[@scholagladiatoria]

Soullessnut I agree.

[@fakename1545]

Soullessnut I just did. That's some tense shit. I had to go watch videos of regular fights to calm down.

[@1cme1]

TrangleC i actually just saw a different video today of people in a different prison doing the same thing. except they used a machete and some sort of knife in their off hand. also idk why your comment was marked as spam. i restored it for you.

[@pant0sand0hat]

Soullessnut I just watched a few of those machete fights... my god. I appreciate your suggestions for those videos as an example, I feel I have gained a great deal of insight in a very short amount of time.

[@OmikronZeta]

Soullessnut While searching this, I found a website for a Haitian machete-fighting school, haitianfencing (dot) org.

[@MisterRofltastic]

Hi all I'm from the East and have had the privilege of meeting some old school artists and have dabbled in a few styles of kung fu myself. From my limited knowledge, "kung fu" is a catch-all term for any fighting system and that those in China may be broadly divided into northern and southern styles. Northern styles are what comes to mind when one thinks 'kung fu'. In general, northern styles are more dynamic and you may see more acrobatics and high kicks. Southern styles (which is what I've done mostly) are as Matt pointed out more handwork-centric and grounded, possibly due to differences in geography influencing tactical demand (one theory I've heard is that narrow back-alley fights tend to occur in the generally more densely populated south). In fact theres a certain stigma regarding high kicks in kung fu in general, with any kick going above the groin being seen as overly ambitious and risky both in terms of balance and the danger of having one's foot caught by the opponent. They're generally reserved to snipe at toes, shins and knees unless a superb opportunity presents itself for a higher kick such as if the opponent is off balance or the fighter is able to ensure success through distraction. Having (casually) sparred with people using styles from all over the world, I'm often amazed how similar martial arts are to each other. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised if they are similar when every system is essentially trying to solve the same problem with the same tools.

[@Guilleme]

No one says "however" quite like you Matt :-)

[@davidvanau3182]

VoluntaryAct Sends shivers down my spine. (In a non-sexual way).

[@Guilleme]

Whenever Matt says "however", I know I will learn something :-D

[@TriEssenceMartialArts]

From what I know of the boxer rebellion, most of the rebels from the Chinese side used weapons, ranging from proper Chinese blades to farming tools, abd their goal was not to do hand to hand combat when possible, ofc they want to get into melee range because they don have much firearms, but cold weapons was their main choice of combat, even though they were called "boxers", its quite different to what the west perceives as boxers. The original and core group that started the rebellion was a branch of Mei Huan Quan, which is a Chinese northern system that is very different to Wing Chun. This group knew they were doing something illegal and could backfire badly, so they changed their name to Yi He Quan in order not to bring trouble to other branches of Mei Huan Quan. Yi means justice, He meaning unified, and Quan meaning fist or boxing. A point to note here is that Quan is used at the time in China as a collective term for all Chinese martial art, Quan Fa aka fist method is the generic term for all CMA, and most systems will end the name with the character Quan, such as Mei Hua Quan, Tang Lang Quan, Yong Chun Quan etc, and a martial art master would be called Quan Shi meaning fist master, even if he knew weapon methods too. So it could be possible that the western translation of "boxer" came from the Chinese use of the term Quan, more than basing on their observation of seeing CMA being similar to British boxing. And being called "boxer" does not mean they did not use weapons, whether their weapon methods were good or not is another story, but most of the members of Yi He Quan had weapons as their primary means to combat. The initial movement started somewhere in Shandong province, and they only started moving into bigger and central cities after they have gained massive support from all kind of civilian groups. Which is why later on the name was changed from Yi He Quan into Yi He Tuan, where Tuan meaning something like an organization, this mark the time where this rebellion was no longer made up of ppl from the same branch of Mei Hua Quan, but rather a group mixed with all kind of ppl who weren't happy with the foreigners. Another interest thing to note is that as this movement grew, another group of ppl became more influential than the original Yi He Quan ppl, these new comers initially called themselves Shen Quan, meaning god fist, they fooled ppl into believing some kind of shamanism ritual that invokes spirit possession, thus allowing the members to be invincible against bullet, and due to its overly promised power more and more member joined the rebellion under their banner. So eventually when they made their way to big cities such as Beijing and Tianjing, the crowd was so mixed that I don even think the majority were proper Chinese martial artists, hence I do not believe its accurate to try and piece together how CMA were like back in the days based on the descriptions of boxer rebellion. Not to mention the system of Mei Huan Quan at the time although was popular among rural areas, but wasn't quite respected in main CMA communities around the imperial city, where most top masters at the time gathered to make a living, lesser and weaker systems get pushed out seeking jobs in more rural places.

[@365hayden]

I really like these types of videos. Keep up the good work.

[@lendondain1]

I love the topics covered by your videos, and your level of knowledge on those topics is impressive. However, you could TOTALLY get to the point much more quickly and efficiently.

[@thecorner2511]

Best video I've seen about Historical fighting.

[@dextrodemon]

in my vast (ly limited) experience someone with even a little bit of training in boxing will absolutely destroy someone with no training at all in a street fight. just the jab itself as a tool seemed to be enough.

[@HughMyron372]

It's crazy how much of a difference just a little bit of fighting training makes

[@ivanharlokin]

Torc Handsomeson It can take an awful lot of training for someone to not revert to 'animalistic' reactions in a highly stressful situation, such as a real fight (as opposed to sparring). This is the reason that many modern self defence systems, such as SPEAR, are based around people's natural 'flinch responses'.

[@Robert399]

+Torc Handsomeson no experience < martial arts training < street fighting experience < both

[@dizzt19]

Fight Club did this faírly well, the sounds and the body language of inexperienced fights...

[@Dhomazhir]

Your comments about real fighting reminded me of the video of Phoenix Jones fighting a guy in the street in Seattle under Washington State's "Mutual Combat" law.

[@Underbottom.Sandydown]

That makes sense - If you look at modern MMA it shows that boxing (modern boxing I know, but Bas Rutten could be an loose example of old school bare knuckle boxing) seems to be a much more effective way to both damage your opponent and mitigate damage to yourself. That being said how funny would it be if the reason there wasn't many British accounts of head kicks was because the dudes who would've seen them got dropped. "I don't bloody well know how it happened mate. Llittle fucker was there no' two bloody seconds before he lowered his hands and turned his back to me - then I awoke on the floor."

[@nirfz]

Your explanation reminded me of a Book i read years ago. It was writen by Bruce Lee, who (against what would was used in the films) stated that in a real fight you should not use kicks higher than hip or even knee hight, because it takes too much time, and weakens your stand.

[@losthor1zon]

I'm told that in Southern China, fist work and low kicks - actually close-quarter fighting - predominated in various styles for a few reasons having to do with the environment - heavy on boats and crowded cities with narrow alleys, and light on wide open spaces. With Northern styles, it was the reverse, lots of open space. So the techniques emphasized reflected that. Not to mention that the rebels who wanted to "overthrow the Ching and restore the Ming" (dynasties), who concentrated in the south and many of whom stayed on boats, were also a big influence on some southern styles. Hung Gar is supposed to have developed at least partly out of this.

[@MarcRitzMD]

Matt, I am happy you are posting these Q&As but I think you'd do better to space them out a bit more considering the way that youtube handles the visibility of subscribed channels.

[@Yorosero]

I think the style of kung fu associated with the Boxers is Meihuaquan, which we can actually see demonstrations of online which is nice.

[@docleafman]

Could you possibly explore urban self defense in the 19th C.? From use of the walking stick to clubs,cudgles and saps to knives. Many chose to arm themselves when out in public and I am interested in your view on this.

[@autolykos9822]

Great summary, but I have two minor points about the Kung Fu: First, Wing Chun and Shaolin aren't mutually exclusive. While the non-classical Kung Fu from the Yip Man/Bruce Lee/Leung Ting lineage is often referred to as Wing Chun, the styles they are based on also are, and they tend to trace back to the southern Shaolin monastery. Second, the impression of Kung Fu fighters (especially southern styles) not looking very skilled to Europeans might be due to the use of Chi Sao. It does look a lot like uncoordinated flailing to bystanders. Even the opponent might at first not realize that it is in fact technique and just wonder why all his punches seem to miss and he always ends up with his hands in inconvenient positions. Boxing (or, for that matter, Jiu Jitsu) tends to make the user look skilled, Wing Chun tends do make his opponent look stupid.

[@RolfHartmann]

The Boxer Rebellion was entirely in Northern China, and many Chinese looked down on their fighting techniques as having less to do with Martial Arts and more to do with the Peking Opera.

[@1johnnygunn]

Any chance we could have a video about the parallels between fencing and knife fighting in medieval sources and obvious differences?

[@TheSkunkBlaza]

Chaotic would be the coined phrase I believe. Excellent explanation in my opinion.

[@greatkaafir7881]

Love your show sir

[@mpcaton5042]

Bit of a side point but it is probably worth mentioning that the "Boxers" probably shouldn't be taken as some sort of master-class in kung fu techniques, as most of them were just ordinary young men, disaffected due to economic disaster and barely engaged in old traditions of kung fu at all. Many just attached themselves to the vague movement, which in part promised physical invulnerability to those with sufficiently advanced spiritual development and practice of other non-violent techniques.

[@edi9892]

I guess that a serius fight ended faster then hollywood would make us believe. Maybe the less serious ones took longer as people were more defensive and avoided infliction of serious injuries. PS: I am sorry, to hear that you had your share of real life experience in the topic. I had an dispute that escalated horrifically fast and I almost had to do something that I would have regretted. This minute of my life I had to carry for years.

[@zasmirko100]

There are different applications in Chinese kungfu. In boxers uprising was prevalent "magical" attitude of masses who trained month or two - which failed. But there were men who earned there bread with real skills - guards of caravans, personal guards and soldiers. And unarmed combat was rare and unusual anyway -its more a modern legend.

[@WoodLeopard]

Interesting video. Under pressure most empty hand fighting reverts to western style boxing, unless the practitioner is highly experienced in another method.

[@runakovacs4759]

***** Generally, it will make some alterations to this revertion. I myself study Mantis Kung Fu. My natural reaction to a fist coming at me is the classic bob and weave from boxing mixed with mantis's parry/grab if possible.

[@enginnonidentifie]

I suspect that a contest between a novice and a trained fighter would probably play out like those videos were a pro boxer/mma fighter/other martial artist down their assailant, or assailants, relatively quickly as they don't really know how to defend themselves. Though, I doubt people would rush as much if sharp objects were involved.

[@EhAmes94]

Now we have the dreaded HEMA Cat!

[@singami465]

Hey Matt, I'm designing a video-game sword-fighting combat system. While replicating reality 1:1 onto a computer screen is never possible - and also almost never fun - I strive to make it feel as realistic as possible, or at least mimic the thought process that you would have in a fight, with blacking lines, movement and everything. I have a solid base (I think), but there's definitely a lot of questions I'd like to ask someone that knows about historical fighting. Could you help, or do you know anyone that could? If yes, then where to reach you/them?

[@cygil1]

Yagi This is a long process if you're new to HEMA. I suggest watching footage of the last few Swordfishes and getting some of the better books and DVDs out there, /then/ asking an expert your questions. "I cannot explain the finer points of a Shielhau to someone who doesn't know Vom Tag from Iron Gate."

[@Anndgrim]

Yagi You should be able to find treatises, though it would still not be worth real experience. You should look if there are HEMA clubs not too far from where you live. You don't necessarily need to spend a lot of time either.

[@singami465]

cygil1 You've mistaken my intent, or perhaps the process of designing a video game system. The point was not to get a full analysis of historical fighting, knowing every bit of detail possible - that will never translate well into a game. The point was to ask some very general questions.

[@zephyrbiscuit4547]

Yagi Hey Yagi. I too seek to be a game designer and I know what you're thinking. I have actually been going to HEMA to get hands on experience, and I've been watching youtube of unarmed combat(although I used to have a BJJ gym and wrestle so I have a decent idea). I could definitely give you some ideas for core mechanics. I would need some details first though like is it 3D, are you fighting in armor, are there multiple weapons?

[@qiangluo1974]

i read that ww2 british close combat system was developped from ShangHai gangsters fighting style. if that is true, they must find it very effective. but i am not sure how reliabe that is. Do you have any knowledge about it?

[@DeathWishMonkey]

Hrm, didn't know how I missed this video, but US Marines reported enraged Chinese "insurgents" (actually militia troops) who took multiple rifle-shots to drop.

[@GameNubQuin]

Honestly that bit at the end where you mentioned Europeans liking Japanese Martial arts but not Chinese sounded really interesting, I'd always figured they were too ethnocentric at the time to care. I'd like to hear about that.

[@Sifuben]

GameNub Quin What's interesting is that there are positive things said about Japanese swordsmanship and negative things said about Chinese swordsmanship. In the second Sino-Japanese war the Japanese did so poorly in sword encounters that they completely redesigned their sword training.

[@77jarim]

Sifuben The positive accounts are from from 16th and early 17th centuries when Japan had dealings with various Europen nations before isolationist period and again (and I assume mostly) from mid 19th century when foreigners were once again allowed to visit. During this time the samurai were still around. To my understanding the Japanese swordsmanship arts deteriorated significantly during and especially after the Meiji restoration since the samurai class were no longer allowed to carry swords. A soldier or an officer during the WWII era would often only have very basic training.

[@nikitaonassis6090]

Europeans have more affiliation with Japanese, simply because they were one of their partners or alliance in invading China.

[@nikitaonassis6090]

Further more, the Meiji Empire saw significant drop of Samurai, being unable to bear tribal weapons, as did China, where those tribes returned to the villages or migrated due to poor economic handling by a corrupt Chinese court..so the story goes..which seems plausible that upon the decline of empires, new ones emerge the victors. I am sure the Monguls and Ghenkis Khan would have less flattering tales of European battlefield craft and martial arts as well, at the peak of their empire. All in all, it is difficult to have an even comparison except of the decline of art and the rise of another.

[@danielwalker8142]

i have heard it said i an mma context where they are atempting to cheery pick the best aspects from all the martial arts that the best punching is western styl boxing

[@schizoidboy]

I think the Chinese martial artists in the Boxer Rebellion might not have had much training. At the time they might have recently joined the movement but they might not have had the time to develop skills as martial artists.

[@davidbradley6040]

So "West Side Story" may not be accurate in fight scenes?

[@umidontno040394]

where do you find all these accounts? i am genuinely curious

[@morallyambiguousnet]

To date I've only seen two types of fights; those in which one of the opponents is skilled and the other is not, and those in which both opponents have little skill. The first are generally over in seconds, with the unskilled opponent bleeding and/or unconscious on the floor. The second last for a good while, result in the opponents wrestling about on the ground, and end when either bystanders pull them apart, or one gets the upper hand and puts the boot to the one still on the ground. One notable fight I remember seeing, in my youth took place in a shopping mall, and was clearly something ongoing. Drunk purposely bumped thug. Thug pushed drunk off. Drunk tries to push thug who brushes his arms aside, grabs him by the shirt, hits him twice in the face, then literally drops him.

[@polymath7]

morallyambiguousnet How is the person being assaulted in your description a thug?

[@morallyambiguousnet]

polymath7 You would have to have seen him.

[@polymath7]

morallyambiguousnet My whole question is how merely seeing him would ascertain this. Looks like you're a mindless dipshit. (But maybe it just _looks_ that way.)

[@morallyambiguousnet]

polymath7 Why, thank you for your analysis. Someone who looked this much like a movie thug, walking in a wedge with his two buddies who also looked like stereotypical movie thugs, was either a thug or trying way too hard.

[@polymath7]

morallyambiguousnet Dipshit status confirmed.

[@zyztem8775]

Hate to triple post. Just have to point out that 'Boxers are terrible with their blade work' should be a very accurate description. Even Chinese sources say that the 'Boxers' are mainly under-fed and under-trained peasants that gets cut down like grass against European professional armies.

[@Usammityduzntafraidofanythin]

If all you have is a flintlock musket (or impractical blackpowder rifle), and the enemy has a bolt action rifle - this might suggest that it's better to just abandon the musket and try to move the encounter to hand to hand. The enemy is going to be taking territory left and right, so your best bet is probably to hide and commit to guerilla warfare. I wonder if that's how the rebellion went? Also, I don't think there were many musket vs. bolt action rifle battles. The bolt action was just too high rate of fire.

[@Morrigi192]

Usammity There were probably quite a few such battles, they ended very quickly and with a lot of blood on the Chinese side.

[@isaiahecorrea]

Cool vid

[@badpossum440]

Where is this review list?

[@Robert399]

How do real brawls compare to less flashy martial arts bouts like Muay Thai or Lethwei or the like? Oh course you never have to deal with street conditions or other people joining in, etc. but still how does the actual fighting compare?

[@Anndgrim]

Robert R People tend to try to gain the advantage by tackling their opponent and pounding away.

[@fakename1545]

Robert R What do you mean by a brawl? You can look up martial artists fighting one on one, in groups, amateurs one on one and in groups, people killing each other with weapons in groups. Google it, you can see it for yourself.

[@edi9892]

Robert R Mostly it is a douchy pushing contest until someone has enough of it and starts swinging haymakers. The other doges them and tries to land his own or takles him and on the floor it gets really messy.More generally speaking kicking is rare especially the higher the target is and the longer your technique takes to be executed. You may see a kick to the groin, shin or knee but rarely anything more fancy, as it usually ends in an epic fail. You will see that under great stress you pretty much forget what you learned and follow your instinct while having tunnel vision and only gross motor skills (I can tell this from my own experience).In case one has an (improvised-) weapon you can be pretty sure that he will swing it like a lying figur 8 and in case of a stabbing implement that it will be in icepick grip attacking downwards.

[@edi9892]

***** well, I do see much truth in it, but still it depends on the circumstances. A friendly sparring will hardly prepare you for the stress that you feel when you are for the first time in a live or death situation. PS my personal experience was not of this magnitude, but also my training was only basic.

[@runakovacs4759]

edi Idea is to do the same thing in a given situation so often, that you... "autopilot it". Fist coming to your head? Don't lean back and away. Bring yourself down with your knees, while leaning towards it (as in, getting behind the punch like the bob and weave from boxing). Same deal as with ukemi.

[@slowpokebr549]

Having done a fair amount of security work, I've seen a lot of bar type fights. Most fights either amount to a lot of rolling around violently hugging each other whilst swearing or they are bloody slobberknockers. Even most trained boxers revert to dominant armed haymaker machines when they are drunk and angry. Really, it comes down to the size of the fight in the dog. It's the guy that refuses to quit that usually wins. OH and girl fights are the worst thing to happen in a bar. Holy Moses, just try to shove em outside and don't get caught up in the hair pulling whirlwind.

As a student of malay arts i was wondering if there are any accounts of british for malaysia or dutch for indonesia and their fightingarts, i.e. silat. Do you know of any? (Please if yes can you reference the source, id love to read it)

[@nikitaonassis6090]

Not sure, but you could try sources during the second world war when japan invaded Singapore through Malaysia. There were many brave Malays who died from Japanese, but you have to remember it was essentially much like Hitler going in with tanks against a largely horseback prussian elite. My guess is there was generally tribal resistance and guerilla warfare, where the Japanese had little interest, as did the British had, in that both sought to control cities rather than the outskirts.

I was more intrested if there was doccumentation by the british of malay fighting arts armed and or unarmed

[@nikitaonassis6090]

+Björn Rugstad You will have to delve into British accounts for encounters with the local martial arts, but most of the time, the occupying army that includes indigenous people will have them to a standard weapon of their own forces, unlike early Indian occupation where tribes who sided with the British were allowed their own tribal weapons. I know this because I am acquaintances with former military who adopted the local martial arts. And most martial arts are held closely within the family or tribe. My guess is to start looking for people whose Father were there in the second world war, because military records are unlikley released if not destroyed soon after the 50 year probation, I think. Scholar glad trained HEMA from the instructor who adopted a local art, Australian 1st Battalion were taught the martial art as did the elite or front line best at the time, thats where to start looking, if not your local british military library, be my guess.

[@nikitaonassis6090]

+Björn Rugstad Keywords Majaphahit, you may have to broaden your search to Thailand, Cambodia, Malaya, Indonesia, Singapore, Philippines, India, Pakistan and to southern China closer to the indian border. Silat has roots in indian budhism, with elements of Malaya, Chinese Kun Tao, and subsequently japanese influence.

+Nikita Onassis i am fully aware of silats history.

[@mysticonthehill]

I think a lot of accounts from this era aren't very rational. Politics, national pride and racism do seem to taint many accounts of the 1800s. Of course that doesn't mean at times there isn't varying degrees of truth. A good example is the growing respect for Japanese martial arts at this time. Are Japanese martial arts really that superior to Chinese ones? I doubt it. But Japan's military successes (which had little to do with jujitsu) and potential as a far eastern ally influenced Britain to view them in a different frame of mind. Also while the fighting schools did play an important role in mobilizing and giving the basis for the Boxer Rebellion very few of the boxer were trained martial artist among them. Some of the Boxers did know a Kata but I suspect that was the limit of the knowledge of many.

[@1Invinc]

I think there are many reasons behind the issues of Kung Fu. China towards the end of the 19th Century was in turmoil and weakened greatly. This was after the Qing Dynasty sought eradicate civilian Kung Fu schools out of paranoia that these schools would serve the old Ming rebels. With Qing themselves being weakened, both civilian and state sponsored Pugilist schools were in shambles. Quality of fighters plumet. Most civilian Kung Fu schools only started to revitalise themselves in the Hong Kong region under the relative peace of British rule, but military/state sponsored Kung Fu have never recovered.

[@nikitaonassis6090]

State sponsored kungfu either stayed and died out or migrated.

[@zyztem8775]

Also, 'Kungfu' was never a battle field martial art, the Chinese armies in the ancient time did more or less the same drills than everybody else. The concept of 'Kungfu' in China started from the legendary '18 monks' from Shaolin that helped the first Tang Dynasty emperor Li Shiming won many battles. However, even in China there was no detailed account how they did it. Assuming that only 18 monks can defeat thousands of enemies is of course ridiculous, therefore the main theory is that they brought the Shaolin training method into Li's army.

[@zyztem8775]

Michael Z But that's the only account of 'kungfu' working in battle field

[@nikitaonassis6090]

Most of the top kongfu were called puegellists or spelt somethg to that effect. They were mainly war generals during Romance of the Three Kingdoms, or a 300 year war to unify China. Most pugillists had retreated to their villages, since their history is much like Italian, in fighting each other to see who is the best, to get students, and revenue, and influence. Much fighting had occured, by the time the Five allianced invaded China, most of the better fighters had retreated to their villages, and the corrupt court under a Woman dictator controlling a puppet teenager, had made sure that there were very few in their employ. Some families and tribes had also ventured off to Taiwan, Singapore, SE Asia. Those that were no longer combative had already seen much fighting and grew weary of the fight as well as greed and pride claims to have more students and so on. It was a battlefield art, but when your best man at arms decide not to train your army, things tend to go to pots.

[@nikitaonassis6090]

Most of the top kongfu were called puegellists or spelt somethg to that effect. They were mainly war generals during Romance of the Three Kingdoms, or a 300 year war to unify China. Most pugillists had retreated to their villages, since their history is much like Italian, in fighting each other to see who is the best, to get students, and revenue, and influence. Much fighting had occured, by the time the Five allianced invaded China, most of the better fighters had retreated to their villages, and the corrupt court under a Woman dictator controlling a puppet teenager, had made sure that there were very few in their employ. Some families and tribes had also ventured off to Taiwan, Singapore, SE Asia. Those that were no longer combative had already seen much fighting and grew weary of the fight as well as greed and pride claims to have more students and so on. It was a battlefield art, but when your best man at arms decide not to train your army, things tend to go to pots.

[@qiangluo1974]

there are Chinese account about hand to hand combat in boxer rebellion. although i have no idea how accurate it is. and some account seems made up later for nationalism propaganda. but there is one thing mentioned countless time that European saber bounce off from back of the head because the thick manchu pig tail braids stopped cut.

[@davidbradley6040]

I understand that most Boxers were not "Official Boxers" but were civilians.The Boxers were using traditional Chinese weapons as an idealogical belief as well as what they had available.They would use modern firearms when they could get them but most "true"Boxers would not approve of that.Vertually all combat would be armed even with just a "snickersnee".The main problem would seem that "true" Boxers were a minority and the mass were made up of "coolies" who believed in the cause or were up for a fight.

[@justsomeguy3931]

Anyone who wants to see what real fights look like should check out ActiveSelfProtection channel

[@qiangluo1974]

lol it is easier to actually watch real sword fight in china than get that information from book. if you stay at night club long enough and promise you will witness a few good one.

[@Arafax]

I'm not saying that you're necessarily implying this but the majority of the people involved in the Boxer Rebellion would not be considered as skilled kung fu masters by any means. Besides, it's not as if we don't know anything about the martial arts taught at the time since Shaolin and Wudang monks have been practicing more or less the same thing for quite some time now.

[@jesperjrgensen133]

Jet Black not really. what you see in shaolin schools today has very Little combat application.

[@Arafax]

jesper jørgensen That's neither here nor there, and also your opinion. Sanda is absolutely combat applicable. My point was that the majority of the people involved in the Boxer Rebellion probably knew little to no actual kung fu.

[@mariocassina90]

italians too

[@axebattler6604]

From what I have seen in martial arts circles chinese martial arts are seen as inferior. Wing chun in particular is considered a joke. There's lots of bullshido videos on WC on KZbin. It's also near impossible to find a fight on YT where the wing chun fighter wins.

[@Piatasify]

Axe Battler In kung fu, it is considered the most effective (unless you consider san dou, which is really thai-boxing with throws). Bruce Lee's criticism of traditional Chinese martial arts are interesting to read, because it's quite in line with what we can see today, while having been mostly theoretical (still underestimated the groundfighting though, and had a hard time being critical of his "firt love" WC)

[@autolykos9822]

Piatasify I don't think he underestimated ground fighting. Going to the floor is a *horribly* bad idea outside of the controlled environment of a tournament. You can't really run away, and if the other guy's friends arrive first, or he draws a knife, you are in serious trouble. Other than that, I did a bunch of different styles (mostly Filipino MA, some variants of Jiu Jitsu, Kickboxing and Weng Chun), and each of them has useful ideas and techniques the others miss. You should learn as many different styles as you can, but quickly ditch any trainer who doesn't know what he's talking about (which is especially endemic in Karate, WT and Aikido, as well as anything with "modern", "streetfighting" or "commando" in its name, but also common enough everywhere else).

[@Neverninja]

2:00 am video. Dang

[@pellaken]

That's your computer room?!

[@BIIGtony]

Teddy Boragina I'm wondering if he has swords in his bathroom.

[@pellaken]

BIIGtony are you crazy? The bathroom is for war axes!

[@nikitaonassis6090]

+Teddy Boragina No way, bathroom is fitted with cat of nine tales..for that kinky feel.

[@Escylon]

It is really unfortunately that there aren't many documented cases about hand to hand combat between the European and the Chinese. A lot of Chinese martial arts systems use quite some unusual weapons or at least not usual in Europe. Would be interesting to know something about the first encounters with these weapons.

[@Duke_of_Lorraine]

Your cat is annoying ? Then... what about making a video showing whether Katzbalgers deserve their name or not ?

[@Escylon]

Sorry, but the words "kung fu" in itself don't tell you much. It just means something earned by a lot of and often hard training. So if you don't specify what type of "kung fu" you are talking about, it remains just a vague idea.

[@flecx39]

i have been in 80-100 streetfights. people who know me know this is true i have used kung-fu mauy thai judo grapling. i have fought multiple opponents and was a pro mauy thi fighter. live near fontana many biker gangs here so i fought them in bars. . i have smashed guys on the street. people with no skill should not ever fight.. its realy bad for them

[@hotsteamypudding]

well if you look at modern MMA, UFC etc - its pretty clear that a more western style of boxing rather than say wing chun is preferable - if wing chun was better thats what they would use.

[@Ahuc899]

Maybe there's only unflattering accounts of kung fu because all the Westerners who came across talented practitioners weren't alive long enough to talk about it?

[@watchthe1369]

Easy, look at SCA recreations.

[@Patrick-dj9dd]

Like fuck they're realistic. SCA fighting might be fun but it's far from realistic

[@zyztem8775]

Boxer revolution is just mainly farmers, filled with almost religious rage, trying to take arm against intruders armed with modern weapons(for that time) with melee close range weapons. They usually had very little training (tho they did trained in 'Kongfu') However, as a Chinese, I really dislike the word 'Kungfu', since its widely exaggerated and overly generalized here. Let's face it, 'Kungfu' is just another fighting art generated from the will of killing another person effectively. The only special thing is that its developed in China. Is it much better than other fighting techniques? no. Is it just a myth that never exited? again no.

[@JkaaraKoDi]

Intro sound is VERY annoying

[@claspe1049]

Excuse my sloppy pingin ... but the chinese word for martial arts is often kuen wich means fist or boxing. Southern styles of kungfu often lack high kicks ... huang gar or southern mantis are great examples ... and yes wing chun wich i at least in its european incarbation dislike because its pseudo scientific marketing to the middleclass...

[@zeiitgeist]

Cla Spe 拳 kuen is Cantonese so pinyin need not apply since Mandarin pinyin would be written as quan, in any case in Cantonese is sounds more like quh (Queen)-nn

[@TheLeg4tus]

meow?

[@sanqiangli6425]

Not many accounts? Propaganda?