Qing New Army Sabers- Chinese Swords and Swordsmanship Series

[@andrewk.5575]

Can confirm that everything about those sabers screams German from a European perspective, the large asymmetrical steel bowl with slots cut out, the bakelite grip with that protrusion you hook your index finger around, and the quill point. The one thing I do notice is that, with the exception of the last example, the grips on the sabers seem to be rather long by European standards. Perhaps that was an influence from those katana-saber hybrids the Japanese were using in this period? I would be amused if there was a "Chinese School of Saber Fencing" because I have joked in the past that the 19th century is when everyone in Europe woke up and decided, "You know, I could create a saber system." So for example in the Medieval Period we know of a German, an Italian, and possibly an English school of longsword fencing, but in the 19th century we have British, Spanish, French, Dutch, German, Northern Italian, Southern Italian, Swedish, Polish, and two or three different Hungarian methods of saber fencing!

[@scottm.rodellgrtc2969]

Be amused, because apparently they did. Or at least some did, adapting some techniques to this "new" sword (new to China). There are even systems that created forms particularly for the European style saber. Thanks for the note about hilt length. I have not handled a proper German made KD89, only seen them in photos.

[@andrewk.5575]

Hmm, on further examination I may have been wrong about the grip length. The way you are holding the sabers in the video (with a closed fist) makes the grips look longer than if you had used a "saber grip" with the thumb on the back of the grip and the pommel against the wrist. Also, looking at photos of original KD89s, there seems to be quite a bit of variability in how curved the grip is, some are more or less straight while others are bent at about a 30º angle. The example in this video kzbin.info/www/bejne/Z4aUo2mbeaiJrZo seems pretty similar to yours, once you swap out an imperial eagle for a dragon.

[@adenyang4398]

It’s interesting how the modernized late Qing contrasts from post-Shogunate Japan in that the latter’s swords had extensive amounts of native sword designs implemented (for both kyu and shin gunto), while the former did not. Even throughout the Republican eras people gravitated toward the dadao and the oxtail dao, while the classical liuyedao was more or less left in the dust to be forgotten.

[@LafayetteCCurtis]

Most of the early Meiji and Taisho sword designs were quite European in their features and it would have been uncommon to see Japanese officers carrying native Japanese sword-length blades in active service (even naval dirks were British or German in style). It wasn’t until the 1920s/30s (getting into the Showa/Hirohito era) that the Japanese re-adopted their traditional blade designs for official military service in the modern Army and Navy.

[@adenyang4398]

@@LafayetteCCurtisthat’s true for dirks and daggers. Kyu guntos before the Showa era are not all that distinct from shorter-end tachi in dimensions though, the only notable difference was that they had a minimalistic knuckle bow. “Quasi-western” as opposed to being straight European copies.

[@junichiroyamashita]

From what i know european cavalry saber designs were also used ,under the name commander sabre. I guess they fell out of favor under Showa but it was interesting to see.

[@manchagojohnsonmanchago6367]

ownership of swords, weapons ect by the ethnically chinese populations in the machus empire was very limited.. but comparison japan had a huge.. class based civililian culture of of sword collection, and owning and wearing swords as a sign of status. much of the old chinese swords have military origins where a smost japanese swords you find are civillian products.. giving you a better image of the volume of swords being acquired by the japanese public.. when it was legal to do so.. because of that there was much japanese attachment to the style of thier swords.. where as in the manchus declining multi-ethnic nation there was not. look the manchus them selves.. and extinct ethnic group by then their swords were extincts.. but the 19th century mongols too .. were just buying swords of chinese mark or getting swords of chinese make issued form the arsenals where they were stationed.. the production of swords was huge.. and rather poor quality.. if not functional. a sword was for many people just a sword,the cultural and martial connotations of japanese katana ect were just not there.. ti was a tool for many people who would have owned it.

[@henryshoots]

That two-hand grip is interesting.

[@scottm.rodellgrtc2969]

It is interesting how employing that grip makes it easy to wield like I do my miaodao.

[@camrendavis6650]

Curious bit of history. Love this combining of cultures.

[@mugenGRTC]

Thanks, we appreciate you support!

[@scottm.rodellgrtc2969]

I am quite interested in find more historical sources that tell us more about how these sabers were adapted by Chinese swordsmen.

[@camrendavis6650]

@@scottm.rodellgrtc2969 the fact that you mentioned it's integration into Xingyiquan is really something I want to see

[@scottm.rodellgrtc2969]

@@camrendavis6650 That will be in an upcoming video...

[@tuerkefechi]

Very interesting video on a topic I specifically am interested in. Saw this mostly about the japanese troops, to the modernization of their Army and in connection with the kyu gunto military swords and the style it was used. I knew about the german based military sabers in China, but this gives much more insight than I had so far. Excellent

[@-Zevin-]

One thing to consider with the Japanese kyu gunto swords, at least in my experience, I currently have an original. Mine is very lightweight, and a bit shorter in length than these Chinese sabers, and the grip is less protective. All of that leads to an incredibly responsive and quick sword, something that would handle quite a bit different than these German sabers If I had to guess. My blade is what I would consider "average" for the most kyu gunto that I have seen. However kyu gunto are interesting in that I have seen quite a variety in blades, from very fine Japanese style blades with a hamon in European style hilts, to almost spadroon like strait European style blades that are almost purpose built for thrusting. I even once saw a kyu gunto with a incredibly wide curved blade almost like a 1796 light cavalry saber with double fullers. There seems to have been a pretty wide variety and fairly relaxed regulation regarding what a officer could use, I am assuming these more unusual types were something a officer spent his own money on and of course was not issued.

[@scottm.rodellgrtc2969]

Thanks brother.

[@tbishop4961]

Great video. Felt like a legit highschool history lesson complete with props (I remember the days when you could still bring things like that to a class for demonstration 🤣)

[@scottm.rodellgrtc2969]

Thanks, but I think you might be dating yourself when you mention the days when you could bring a sword to school ;).

[@tbishop4961]

@@scottm.rodellgrtc2969 🤣 way back in the days where you could build a zip gun in front of the entire speech and debate class to demonstrate the effectiveness of gun control

[@swiftspire2970]

Interesting how swords were provided that did not match the training with Jian or Dao. I can only imagine the frustration of the people using those swords.

[@scottm.rodellgrtc2969]

It is curious, but makes sense in the New Army context. I hope to find more period sources that address how these sabers were wielded by Chinese martial artists.

[@LOL-zu1zr]

Well these swords are better suited for modern warfare at the time. They are for longer range stabbing which would fair better against bayonet.

[@LafayetteCCurtis]

On the other hand, it might be worth looking into the social background of the people who were issued these swords. I suspect it’s not unlikely that the segments of the population that made up the bulk of recruits for the New Armies (I’m under the impression that they were particularly keen to get recruits with at least some elementary formal education) might have been some of the least likely to have had a prior background in martial arts, given the marginal social position of most martial artists in the era (e.g. street performers, opera crews, caravan guards, and the like). So it might not have been so nonsensical to train them from scratch in a non-Chinese system altogether.

[@JonseyWales]

Another absolutely fascinating episode. Many thanks.

[@thescholar-general5975]

Excellent video! Do you think that the guards on the Chinese made swords could have been imported which could explain the western-style dragon depiction?

[@grounddragonmartialarts]

It's possible but there was no record of it when we were researching it.

[@scottm.rodellgrtc2969]

It is difficult to say given the lack of period records, but yes that is possible. However, it appears that these Chinese made examples copied the German style dragon rather than produce them in a more Chinese fashion.

[@rjtwocircles]

I was taught that nearly all Chinese swords, Jian and Dao, could be used as two-handed swords in the manner that you demonstrate here. And, that was an old tradition that went back to the Tang Dynasty or before.

[@scottm.rodellgrtc2969]

The vast majority of sword systems taught and practiced in China from the early Ming on were focused on wielding the sword, jian or dao, with a single hand. Many Chinese swords, particularly jian, are mounted with grips that are long enough to employ two-hands. And indeed, there are systems that do make use of two-handed cuts, the Duo cut for example. These are however specialized cuts and not the stand use. There was a resurgence in the popularity of two-handed swords and other weapons at the end of the Ming. This was likely the reaction of a military that was primarily infantry to facing mounted foes, namely the Mongols and later the Manchus. Note that Chinese two-handed swords are of a weight and balanced so that they must be wielded with two-hands. A long grip lone does not make a weapon necessarily a two-hander, rather it simply provides the option of using two hands when one wishes to deliver a more powerful blow.

[@rjtwocircles]

@@scottm.rodellgrtc2969 Thank you for the detail. Yes.

[@manchagojohnsonmanchago6367]

great video, plese show some closeups of the blades and handles of the swords..

[@mugenGRTC]

Will do...

[@manchagojohnsonmanchago6367]

@@mugenGRTC thanks, these swords are quite uncommon. would be interesting to see the versions with locally made blades

[@stanlim9182]

5:34 could anyone please tell me this technique? I have trouble finding a source to explain this move.

[@DeividHeisenberg]

Looks like a Ci. Deflection and a thrust, Defense and attack as a part of one fluid movemmet. If yu wanna lear of that, take the webinars with Laoshi Scott. Im one of his students.

[@scottm.rodellgrtc2969]

This demonstration should answer some of your questions: kzbin.info/www/bejne/oJm6eZSDgd6raJI

[@stanlim9182]

@@scottm.rodellgrtc2969 谢谢! I had register the online course a few weeks ago, the content was great.

[@scottm.rodellgrtc2969]

@@stanlim9182 Excellent, thanks for your support. See you at the Academy... in person Seminars are coming back...

[@Poohze01]

Your videos are so interesting and informative. Thank you! The pipe-back blade is curious: I didn't think any European militaries were still using them that late, but a European-influenced Chinese blade does... Curious.

[@mugenGRTC]

Thanks, we always appreciate hearing that!

[@LafayetteCCurtis]

Some units in the German army still used pipe-backs well into World War I. Remember, the German Empire was something of a federal state, and the old kingdoms within it (Bavaria, Saxony, etc.) still had some leeway in how much they wanted to Prussianise their military equipment and doctrine.

[@Poohze01]

@@LafayetteCCurtis Thank You for enlightening me!

[@allengordon6929]

I want to see qing new army sabre manuals. And I wonder who would be best at translating them....

[@DaiAndrews]

Great video, very interesting, nice swords!

[@scottm.rodellgrtc2969]

Thanks Dai!

[@johnphilipdesesto4159]

Would've been better if you show your swords at close up

[@shaneshackleford6960]

I wonder why didn't they use more of an Austrian symmetrical style hilt. It would be better balanced for chinese styles. And Chinese sword hilts were mostly symmetrical.

[@scottm.rodellgrtc2969]

Interesting point. I think they were copying what their German advisors had supplied.

[@LafayetteCCurtis]

Austria wasn’t exactly a militarily prestigious country in the era, what with their humiliation in Prussian hands only a few decades before. It’s hard to think of a reason that modernising Asian countries might want to copy them as a military model. Well, maybe if they wanted to specifically piss off the Prussians or Italians, but I doubt many Asian governments really wanted to do it so badly at the cost of risking their military prestige and effectiveness.

[@thedukeofskull1383]

You are the first to make Sabers interesting. Here is a joke for you and your students..." What do you call a 2 handed Jian in Scotland ? It is called a... 2 HANDED GREAT SWORD." 😁 ( I NEVER SAID IT WAS A GOOD JOKE. 😛 )

[@scottm.rodellgrtc2969]

Thanks, keep working on those jokes brother...