R class (1917) - Guide 311

The R class, early hunter-killer submarines of the British Royal Navy, are today's subject.
Read more about the the ship here:
www.amazon.co....
The First Hunter-Killers: British "R" Class Submarines of 1917, by David Miller - Warship 1993
Want to support the channel? - / drachinifel
Want a shirt/mug/hoodie - shop.spreadshi...
Want a medal? - www.etsy.com/u...
Want to talk about ships? / discord
Want to get some books? www.amazon.co.uk/shop/drachinifel
Drydock Episodes in podcast format - / user-21912004
Music - / ncmepicmusic

[@Drachinifel]

Pinned post for Q&A :)

[@Aelxi]

You said you'll be looking into smaller nations AA guns in the future, in your AA guns video. When?

[@brendonbewersdorf986]

Could you do a discussion on the German guided bombs namely the Fritz X and the smaller HS 239 I'm curious as to how effective overall they were and if they were worth the expense

[@myopiniongoodyouropinionbad]

When a submarine dives what steps have to be taken to ensure the well-being of the deck guns and anti-aircraft guns (if applicable). It doesn't seem like it would be good for an artillery piece to just dive down dozens of meters in saltwater. But they obviously did it

[@davidhansen5067]

When the R-class was removed from active service, what was the plan to replace them in their overall naval role as submarine hunters?

[@backinblack03]

How about a 5' guide to HHMS Katsonis or Papanikolis subs?

[@andrewfanner2245]

We forget in these days of computer simulations just how good the hull designers of the RCNC and testers at the Haslar facility really were. The results of their work were seen of such critical importance to the Navy that they were to be destroyed in the event of a risk of capture and, if possible, the testing facilities likewise. All hail Froude and his successors!

[@petermgruhn]

"Make it look like a tuna."

[@namewarvergeben]

I think there is a misconception that computer simulation is some kind of simple, magical tool that will spit out a perfect design at the push of a button. It's an optimisation of a workflow. An optimised workflow does not mean that your work will be easier or that you will have less work in the future. Instead, the scope of your work will increase to fill the void left by the optimisation.

[@ross.venner]

@@petermgruhn - Or to use the expression I was taught in site of HMS Dolphin "cod's head and mackerel's tail."

[@joegibson1731]

Q+

[@trooperdgb9722]

@@namewarvergeben Well said.

[@cartmann94]

R-class submarines: realtively well designed and functional subs. Tried to kill its intended target K-class submarines: a monstrosity and a death trap for their crews 💀

[@AnimeSunglasses]

It's the English way. Must try the best and the worst ideas equally!

[@timholgate6639]

M-Class: the weird result of intercourse between the K class and a battleship (or later on a K class and an aircraft carrier. Or a K class and a Minelayer)

[@klobiforpresident2254]

@@timholgate6639 Really, it's just the result of a K class getting around like a female Henry VIII.

[@timholgate6639]

@@klobiforpresident2254 They were dockyard bicycle

[@richardschaffer5588]

Would an updated R haven useful in WWII in the Med & along the European coast ?

[@JessWLStuart]

YAY! My favorite submarine class from WWI! Also, they had a towed array in WWI? I knew the R class was the first "hunter/killer" submarine, but I didn't know they had a towed array! Thanks for informing me! :D

[@jonsouth1545]

fitted for but not with it was removed in build

[@watcherzero5256]

During 1918 some British airships even experimented with dipping sonar!

[@5000mahmud]

@@watcherzero5256 Seems like the Brits just forgot about the U-boat during the interwar years, so many ASW innovations left undeveloped.

[@janwitts2688]

As the first true hunter killer this was a credible effort...

[@old-moose]

And it is a real shame that someone didn't follow up on the idea between the wars. It is an interesting what if question, "What if the RN had 10-20 hunter-killer submarines sitting across the main U-boat routes out to the Atlantic? Had sonar and torpedo technology improved enough to make them successful?"

[@janwitts2688]

@Ronald Smallwood They could have just had delousing boxes where they hunted down u boats just before convoys arrived... ie just before the convoy enters box one an HK patrol is made and then clears before the convoy enters .. same with box 2 etc... with the HK going clear so as not to foul the defenders .. but sweeping back over the tail by the numbers to attack and trailing submarines... yup would have been worth a few cruisers in material and manpower to have such a combat arm

[@dr.sommercamp3435]

@@old-moose Would they have sunk the surviving 10% of our U-Boat forces?! By the way "U-Boot" - "Unterseeboot" literally means submarine...

[@kimmoj2570]

@@old-moose Nope. As powerfull they would had been, they would had been totally blind. Finding U-boats, impossible. Even with radar mid war, antenna being so low... = half blind.

[@AdmRose]

@@kimmoj2570 You don’t need radar to find U-boats. Deploy a HK group as an outer picket around and slightly ahead of a convoy and trust me, the U-boats will come to you. Then they can be picked up on sonar and hunted down in short order.

[@Knight6831]

So the hunter-killer submarine is a British innovation

[@billpilling5725]

Yes

[@ericgrace9995]

As,I believe, was the first submerged sub on sub kill when a T class sank a U-boat.

[@derrickstorm6976]

@@ericgrace9995 just because a submarine kills another submarine it doesn't make the killer a hunter-killer submarine

[@johncunningham6928]

@@ericgrace9995 That was actually HMS Venturer... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Venturer_(P68)

[@ericgrace9995]

@@derrickstorm6976 It killed it while both were submerged which is why it is worthy of note. Firing blind, using the technology of 1945 echo locators and basic trigonometry to hit an invisible target, is a remarkable achievement. I can't think of another incident where this has happened. If you know of one please, share more of your pedantry with us.

[@klobiforpresident2254]

Only after having played the naval* game "From The Depths" do I appreciate what it means for a teardrop shaped vessel to have bad seakeeping. For anyone who wonders, here's the layman's explanation : normally when a ship rolls the side of it gets pushed into the water (and water doesn't like being pushed around). When a vessel is cylindrical this does not happen because it's round, it's like rolling a brick versus rolling a --dough flattening thing. What're they called?-- rolling pin. The brick resists, while the rolling pin does not. It's literally called a rolling pin, would be weird if it didn't roll well. The actual explanation is more complex, anyone curious can start looking up words like "metacentric height", "righting force", and "angle of vanishing stability". *as it turns out boats are the worst craft, unfortunately.

[@tulliusexmisc2191]

"a dough flattening thing. What're they called?" A rolling pin.

[@klobiforpresident2254]

@@tulliusexmisc2191 Thanks! My family (not one for baking) calls 'em "dough flattener" or "dough roller". We ain't creative either.

[@mahbriggs]

A very good explanation for why these boats were not replicated! Despite their excellent underwater performance, their surface behavior was abominable! And at this time, submarines were surface boats that could submerge for short periods of time!

[@BlisterBang]

Nothing generates sea sickness like a modern cylindrical-hull submarine on the surface. Maneuvering watchstanders are chosen not just for seniority or experience, but also whether or not they can keep their lunch down (voice of experience).

[@brucemckean2848]

see also 'corvettes'

[@CraigLYoung]

I would hate to be the poor Electrician Mate on that sub. 😕 About the time he finished taking gravities, he would have to start again.

[@waynesworldofsci-tech]

Hot dog, what a neat technological leap into the future. It’s too bad they never had a chance to prove their effectiveness. But the technology - just incredible. As an aside, I used to work with Chloride on big battery deals. Heard from some of the old timers about WW2 submarine battery production. I wish I’d written it down. Basically all I remember now is the pressure to get production up.

[@iberiksoderblom]

Really interresting! And a very good base for, what kind of small hunttersubs that will fit the Baltic waters and Danish straits, to effectively close in the Russian navy. Or just a handfull of Japanese torpedoboats...

[@leftcoaster67]

A sub so ahead of its design, they promptly forgot about it when it was scrapped. :(

[@Big_E_Soul_Fragment]

Didn't know concept for Hunter-Killer subs existed as far back as WW1

[@brucealbert4686]

Impressive number of photos for ONE class so long ago.

[@tomlindsay4629]

Been waiting for you to cover this class, they blew my mind when I first heard of them in my youth.

[@RCAvhstape]

Very cool, I had no idea somebody was building attack subs before the end of WWII, very ahead of their time.

[@mitchelloates9406]

I'm a retired USN submariner, 1977 - 97. I'd seen mention of the R class way back in the late 1970's, in a book on the general history of submarine development, just a brief description, and nothing else since. The question I'm left with is this - how much, if any, effect did this attempt at building a hunter-killer submarine, have on submarine development in later decades when the supporting technology was more up to the task - or were they completely ignored and forgotten about, and the various navies basically have to start over from scratch, when it came to developing a hunter-killer submarine, in later years?

[@sargepent9815]

Interesting. This sub was 50 years ahead of its time in terms of hull design and designed purpose.

[@goranserka3601]

I was waiting for this one for a LOONG time. Congratulations for the excellent work!

[@backinblack03]

Any British scientist during WWII; "I have a cunning plan..."

[@sovietdominion]

Does it involve us going over the top and getting us all killed?

[@kevg3320]

a plan so cunning you could stick a tail on it and call it a fox!

[@oldgamesinvestigator7852]

Wow... there really is nothing new under the sun. Who knew the tear drop shape was already figured out by the Brits when submarines were at their dawning age. Thanks, Drachinifel.

[@oldgamesinvestigator7852]

@Tired of War I'm a yank, but I have great respect for Naval innovations no matter where they come from.

[@RCAvhstape]

@Tired of War And no doubt you are always looking for opportunities to dig at the Yanks.

[@klobiforpresident2254]

While they did have it "figured out" the shape was, at the time, infeasible for actual use on a vessel. When surfaced she'd toss and turn and until the fifties (or truly until nuclear propulsion) it was not possible for submarines to stay submerged, where there were no waves, for any length of time.

[@chloehennessey6813]

@Tired of War When you’re that great I guess it’s gotta be done.

[@Easy-Eight]

@Tired of War That's our press that puts out the incorrect statements. That's the same group of fools that think a trans man can get pregnant.

[@Raptor747]

It's crazy how ahead of its time this design was! And to think that the Royal Navy didn't make use of most of these innovations until after WW2!

[@calvingreene90]

A little late or much too early. But still a brilliant design.

[@gavinhammond1778]

I always feel bad when a boat doesn't get a name. Thanks for the content.

[@colbeausabre8842]

They had a name "HMS R-something"

[@trooperdgb9722]

A great many smaller RN ships had a Letter/number "name" HMS M33 (an M29 class Monitor) is at the RN Dockyard Museum..she is the last surviving "Gallipoli" vessel...

[@SynchroScore]

British submarines started getting names when the class letters reached U, and somebody (probably Churchill) decided that HMS _U-9_ would probably not sit well with the rest of the Navy, or the public.

[@hattrick8684]

I just watched the video on submarine hunting strategy during WW1 again yesterday afternoon. I found myself wondering about the R-class subs… I was going to do a brief research on them today and look, you did it for me lol

[@NesconProductions]

Reminds me of much more modern German U-206 design 🤔. Always learn interesting factoids here TYVM!

[@PhantomLover007]

Interesting that the Brits made a fully dedicated Hunter killer. I’m assuming that this is the first such sub to be made so

[@bryantcurtis2665]

Thanks 😊. My dad, Jesse J.Bryant chief electrician submarines Atlantic 1946-67 must have had some cool stories. He worked closely with Raytheon and I was born in Norwich, Connecticut and soon moved to Kittery Maine. I'm a west coast boiler technician U.S.S.GRIDLEY CG-21. Curtis.

[@ZGryphon]

The shape of that bow fairing reminds me of some much later submarine, but I can't remember which. Maybe some early-Cold-War Soviet boat? That's going to bug me now. Fun fact: USS _Albacore_ (AGSS-569), mentioned in this video, still exists! She's on display in a nice park by Route 1 in Portsmouth, New Hampshire, not far from one of the bridges over the Piscataqua into Maine, and just a stone's throw upriver from where she was built. She's still in her final propulsion test configuration, with contra-rotating props compensating for that "stern too narrow for two screws" problem.

[@crazypetec-130fe7]

My grandfather worked at the Portsmouth yard. He took me to see Albacore, the last thing we did together before he died. He also took me to the Squalus memorial. His brother was one of the contractors on board who didn't get out.

[@libraeotequever3pointoh95]

I have visited the Albacore museum. Well worth it. :-)

[@janwitts2688]

Yea hunting with surface ships didn't work well..... 3 cruisers wiped out.... Roll ww2... courageous go hither and attract an enemy attack.... I'm not often for summary execution of idiots who have somehow infected the military command... but I would have understood in this instance..

[@alexcamron7446]

Military command is run by idiots, it's only occasionally that it is infected by someone with intelligence.

[@CharlesStearman]

I don't think the cruisers (Aboukir, Hogue and Crecy) were actually hunting submarines - their presence in the area seems to have been more of a 'showing the flag' exercise. And this happened in September 1914, when the potential submarine threat was not widely understood, and when the first ship was hit it was assumed to have hit a mine.

[@kefkaZZZ]

Where should we file this incredible Work of Naval Art? A museum? Playground? … No just scrap it

[@johnfisher9692]

Thanks Drach These were incredible design for the period and in a way show the uber German subs t at the end of WW2 their fans rave about still could learn much from boats built nearly 3 decades earlier.

[@zhoufang996]

Could an updated R class have been effective in WWII?

[@derrickstorm6976]

Doubt it, it lacked so many new technologies you couldn't retrofit an old design to encompass all of them and still function in an effective way

[@Joshua-fi4ji]

@@derrickstorm6976 but I do imagine a successor design could've been built around newer technologies and might have proved useful, especially in the Med

[@jonnyj.]

@@derrickstorm6976 Um... what? Do you know anything about submarine design? It absolutely could be used extremely effectively in ww2. There was nothing like it until the late 40's. Submarines that quiet were extremely rare in ww2, and literally the only thing "out of date" on the r class were its torpedos and fire control, both of wich were easily upgradable. The hull design and sonar layout, along with its stealth characteristics were FAR ahead of anything else used operationally in ww2.

[@5000mahmud]

@@jonnyj. there was some consideration to restart production post ww2, to deal with soviet subs

[@jonnyj.]

The r class were engineering masterpieces. The fact that they were thinking about a towed array in WORLD WAR 1 is fucking insane. Thats an extremely modern concept that only saw proper use when nuclear subs came online. The designers and engineers who worked in the royal navy at that time were legends.

[@chipeling8386]

You previously covered the British A class boats. But your coverage stopped before the final modernisation - is there any chance you could cover these later boats? My interest arises from my fathers service on Anchorite in Singapore in the late 60s.

[@DeadBaron]

Wait what? A towed array in 1917?? I had no idea they even had that technology in WWI, it's absolutely insane how quickly submarines and technology in general developed. Just a couple decades prior, most ships were tall ships assisted by coal fired boilers. Cars didn't really exist other than a few handmade small batches until Ford's Model T. Then in WWI we had diesel-electric hybrid submarines with hydrophones to hunt German U-boats.

[@thomaskositzki9424]

The design looks so modern - in fact it looks like a freaking Type 206 from afar! Looks like a bad case of "too far ahead of it's time". ^^

[@mistformsquirrel]

Given some of the early views on submarine warfare... I suppose it could also have been the Arrrr! class... (Yo-ho, yo-ho a submariner's life fer me...)

[@jakemrs9718]

Hiya if you haven't already would love you to do the county class destroyers Absolutely love your videos 👍

[@stevoschannel4127]

Very interesting that the modern layout was used so long ago!

[@nicolassmithlemaire1232]

a WW1 towed aray ...talk about advanced for it's time !

[@weldonwin]

And incredible feat of design and engineering, but still no match for the Kawaii Fury of the Adorable Seamine

[@patttrick]

During the night, the helm in K14 jammed to starboard and she swung round and collided with K22, which was actually the K13 renamed after she had drowned most of her crew on her maiden voyage. The two boats locked together and in a series of collisions K4 was sunk by K6 (losing all hands), and K7 was sunk by HMS Fearless (also losing all hands). Four other submarines were damaged. This incident added further to the suspicion of a hoodoo on the class, because just two months earlier K1 had been sunk by the gunfire of HMS Blonde off the Danish coast.

[@craigfazekas3923]

I've gone back in time by revisiting the old Drydocks, starting from #1 & working back up again. Might I suggest the same for those not getting quite enough Drach as they'd like.... And the quality is plainly there from the start !! 🚬😎

[@The_Modeling_Underdog]

My favourite class of RN submarines from WWI. They had several flaws, due to unforeseen shortcomings of the design and using some equipment and fittings from other RN submarines classes. Thing is, you watch R.3 on that final picture and all you can think is "that's some elegant boat if you ask me". Thanks for covering this, Drach. Much appreciated.

[@Goatcha_M]

Still waiting for you to do an episode on the HMAS AE2.

[@ramjam720]

These subs would've been perfect for pirates, because the class uses the pirate's favorite letter...arrrrr!

[@bid0bid]

Royal navy invented the teardrop hull?

[@pennycarvalho1223]

I like that, that’s the kind of goofy design I love, it looks strange and goofy but probably would work well enough.

[@Easy-Eight]

Wow... if there had been a good ship reserve system, like the USN after WWII, then a few of these boats may have seen useful service in WWII. Granted there was no system in place for properly putting a ship in reserve during 1919 to 1939. From what I've gathered, the Clemson class 4 "piper" destroyers were in terrible shape after 20 or so years of neglect.

[@yes_head]

That many batteries seems like a nasty situation waiting to happen.

[@alexcamron7446]

Luckily they weren't the Chinese made lithium crap fitted to modern self igniting buses and Teslas......

[@mikedujanowicz6115]

My absolute favorite class of submarines! So far ahead of there time! There is a great piece about them in Warship 1994- sets alot of the misconceptions to rest!

[@JohnDoe-yq9ml]

Shame this is only 6 minutes. Need to go into way more depth please. Maybe for the next sub video.

[@jimkeats891]

I just want to call it now...RN has a time machine! They have a Los Angelos-class "hunter-killer submarine"...~60 years before "Hunt for Red October". :O

[@agesflow6815]

Thank you, Drachinifel.

[@FinsburyPhil]

What a missed opportunity. A third generation R class in 1940 would have been somewhat useful off of the west coast of France.

[@jeremiahwaller1283]

I really love your 20ish minute videos. Your long form content is fantastic but I just don't always have the time for them.

[@ChapBloke]

Shame they didn't revisit the concept again post war, I wonder if it was just a case of 'well they didn't actually get anything, probably best to stick to what we know'. There's a lot of stuff from the end of WWI that was never fully used or tried out and subsequently dropped without much thought.

[@phaasch]

What a lot of very joined-up thinking went into this design, and what a missed opportunity that the concept was not kept alive going into WW2, it could have had some very interesting outcomes. Was it, do you think, that the Rs simply didn't have enough time in service to prove their capabilities, and so the concept became sidelined?

[@johnshepherd9676]

Charles "Swede" Momsen proposed such a submarine in the 1930s not it didn't go anywhere but he was placed in charge of the Albacore program as his last project before he retired. I did not know about the R Class until I found this channel. I bet Momsen did.

[@alexcamron7446]

It's the old story of lions led by (decrepit) donkeys as usual. The general staff tried, and almost succeeded in replacing the tank with more cavalry after WW1 , what chance did an advanced sub have ? Look how the war office treated Percy Hobart in the twenties. I expect even now the British chief of staff is incapable of forwarding an email. Stupidity rises in the military!

[@phaasch]

@@alexcamron7446 Yes. Thank God for Churchill and Alan Brooke, otherwise that great mind would have been confined to the home guard. As a country, our heirarchy, both military and civil, is an utterly corrupt idiotocracy, who have just about achieved their goal of utterly destroying our society, and our raisin d'etre as a nation. May they all roast in hell forever.

[@alexcamron7446]

@@phaasch . Yes, you're totally correct. I left the UK years ago, as it's nothing more than a museum of past glories now, with no sense of national identity. It has all been done deliberately. I'll come back when it all kicks off. I wouldn't want to miss the lynchings !

[@phaasch]

@@alexcamron7446 Seconded. An awful lot of popcorn will be required for that!

[@FirstLast_Nba]

Never heard of any of this before, thanks.

[@michaeldelucci4379]

I love the R class subs I found out about this class in Brooklyn Public Library in the 1970's a history of the submarine by an writer Gunstan

[@markjohnson4170]

Alas, it seems that this promising class of warships was destroyed by the Royal Navy's biggest nemesis of all time... buget cuts!

[@boydgrandy5769]

The teardrop hull on modern US nuclear submarines are at least as rolypoly on the surface as this design, and for the same reasons. Round bottom, relatively high center of gravity makes them real pigs in strong seas on the surface. The real advantage over the R class, aside from torpedoes that work reliably, is the engineering plant. Nuke subs operate best, in terms of stability and speed, when they are submerged and the fission reactor plants coupled with steam turbine propulsion made that possible.

[@trident1000y]

Does anybody know of a book or website where I can view cutaway drawings of warships? Thank you

[@JGCR59]

Apart from the deck gun this looks almost identical to postwar West German sub designs

[@jonsouth1545]

I wonder how different things would have been if that Uboat had been sunk as that would have vindicated the whole idea especially and the Towed array would have definitely added to it's lethality if it was fitted later.

[@ScreamingSturmovik]

so the German wanted to use Deck guns against cargo ships as a cost saving method because torpedoes are expensive but the British are like "what if we just fire a bunch of them at a single U-boat that we can't see and use the gun if that fails?" lol

[@MonkeyJedi99]

Easy solution for trouble bringing your torpedoes to bear. Bring the bear to the torpedoes!

[@geordiedog1749]

Ben Bryant served on one. Just happen to be reading his autobiography.

[@kennydee8296]

another game changer that didn’t get to wear the guernsey - fascinating vessels

[@jacobdill4499]

I was half expecting the USN R class subs.

[@rayalbaugh4149]

Early but not First!

[@myopiniongoodyouropinionbad]

Where's a good place to find photographs of the Interiors of World War I era u-boats? I could probably walk around a type 9 or 7 U-boat blindfolded and know where I am based on how many pictures I've seen but I haven't seen too many of the Interiors of any other submarine

[@whitepony8443]

I would like "X-Class" more.

[@firstcynic92]

It's too bad they didn't have any success in their role. Those reports would have been very suspenseful.

[@McRocket]

Fascinating. I knew nothing of these. Thank you. ☮

[@alanbare8319]

I enjoy these Guides. Always some little piece of information that gives one an "ah ha" moment!

[@davidbrennan660]

When you want all the torps in the water at once.

[@mikeholton9876]

worlds first Hunter Killer Subs

[@myopiniongoodyouropinionbad]

Seems like a lot of work to create a new submarine class when you could just use the Crushing Hand of God method

[@johnmcmickle5685]

At least they did not have a boiler on board.

[@jebsails2837]

The photo reminded me of the USS Baya, (serving as AGSS 318) in one of her last iterations as a auxiliary class submarine. Narragansett Bay

[@comentedonakeyboard]

The original hunter-killer

[@ross.venner]

Thank you, Drachinifels. I have been waiting for this instalment for years. You did not address one question... No discussion in WW2 of a successor. Why not?

[@xcc9162]

I think USS Maryland (BB-46) would be a good ship for Review.

[@John-ci8yk]

Thank you and thumbs up.

[@firefox3187]

So the R-class was the Genesis of Hunter-Killer, with flank and towed sonar in 1918….

[@hellhound47bravo3]

I thought after seeing the title that the video was about the American R class, but thankfully it wasn't. Very interesting ships that were all too quickly forgotten after the war. One can only guess whether or not if that one attack had been successful if it might have raised these ships rep in the eyes of the Admiralty. Oh well.

[@jasonz7788]

Awesome thanks 👍

[@bigblue6917]

Definitely a missed opportunity

[@crgkevin6542]

Wow, a WWI era attack boat

[@PeteCourtier]

E class next please🙏

[@gerrymalayo7823]

Yes first 3 comments

[@joaoalbertodosanjosgomes1536]

Who does care about this imbecility?

[@nowthenzen]

Good one, Drach! Submariners are sailors too, even if all they get is a boat to ride in.

[@chloehennessey6813]

Drach do you think the Atlanta class ships were misused during the war?

[@jollyjohnthepirate3168]

The hunter-killer concept was older than I thought.

[@jeebusk]

Interesting

[@lewiswestfall2687]

Thanks

[@BELCAN57]

These could have been great test beds between the wars.

[@petermgruhn]

Would have been interested in the toad array.

[@gerald5344]

All hail the toad array!

[@kevg3320]

No frogs were drowned during the making of this video!

[@shaider1982]

This sort of looks like the later T-class sub.