Radosław Sikorski: The Munk Debate - The Russia Ukraine War, Toronto, 12.05.2022

The Munk Debate - The Russia Ukraine War, Toronto, 12.05.2022
Stephen Walt, John Mearsheimer v Michael McFaul, Radosław Sikorski
By any measure, the Russian invasion of Ukraine represents a profound security risk for the world. It raises fundamental issues about the basic principles that underwrite the current international order and it threatens the specter of an entrenched, high-risk Great Power conflict. How is this fast-evolving crisis best addressed? Does it demand a resolute and relentless push by the West to punish, isolate and degrade Putin’s Russia economically, politically and militarily? Or is a solution to be found in acknowledging Russia’s security needs and finding ways to mutually de-escalate the war, sooner not later? Which of these different strategies stand the best chance of success? And how ultimately is this conflict best resolved?
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[@47morlock]

Sikirski is the only one on the stage that actually understands russia. I wonder why

[@Blanka1100]

Because he is Polish.

[@wesluk2608]

How many countries were forced to join NATO? How many countries have joined Soviet Union or Russia voluntarily?

[@Bayonet1809]

Belarus has practically joined Russia, and is now little more than its puppet state while, China, India, South Africa and Brazil, (totalling over 40% of the world population) have all sided with Russia in this conflict, and have refused to disrupt their close economic ties. The idea of a country being forced to do something is not entirely black and white either; does Finland and Sweden joining NATO without holding a referendum mean the the populace are being forced into NATO?

[@wesluk2608]

@@vetrocomvetrocom9737 You probably learned this from Russia Z V news.

[@4637812648]

1:36:38 Sums up the whole debate: after one minute the audience laughs at Mearsheimer's ignorance of Russia and Putin. Russia's entire history is that of an imperial great power. Sikorski is Polish and knows that very well. So do many other nationalities living around Russia, and within Russia itself - Chechnya, Tatarstan, and 19 other colonies. Mearsheimer is popular with those who have axes to grind against America, and little else.

[@golbysystem]

Brawo Panie Sikorski!!

[@jesusjuarezflores2196]

A British, first NATO secretary said 70 yeas ago: "NATO has been made to keep Russians OUT, Americans IN and Germans DOWN". So far, so good. Divide and reigns.

[@hatrick3117]

You have a well massaged brain for Russian media if your arguments can consist of anything that happened in last 200 years

[@elenalychagina1923]

So true

[@jannowak1986]

@@elenalychagina1923 yeah it's working- except we want US protecting European safety and Germans don't want to be militaristic society anymore and they are happy with that. Cry russian looser - russians can't even grab Donbas after 3 months of this military compromitation.

[@corneliuscapitalinus845]

Reminds me of the saying aboit canada; Keep the yanks out, keep the French in, hope the natives disappear Old habits die hard aye

[@greenrosenz]

Yes, big mistake for reunification to take place then.

[@goonerland8195]

Michael Mcfaul is disappointingly immature. To think someone like this was/is anywhere near policy making is very alarming

[@gmw3083]

He's a (fuel). Like all western leaders and bureaucrats.

[@TedATL1]

He made a lot of excellent points. He knows from firsthand negotiation with Putin that NATO is just a fake excuse for invading any and all ex-satellites.

[@johnmadison267]

I was thinking this as well and i read your comment. No wonder why we are so close to a nuclear war.. US foreign policy is driven by these clowns..

[@elliottcovert3796]

@Jon Little The style and the substance are both clearly the product of someone who does not know what he is talking about and who is so deeply steeped in Beltway perspective bias that he cannot understand nationalism in other countries, much like John Foster Dulles couldn't understand it in Latin America or Iran. (1) "We have listened to Russia for decades." False. What does "listening" consist of in his view, exactly? In the 1990s Bill Clinton injected billions of dollars into Boris Yeltsin's presidential campaign when it was becoming clear that the economic reforms pushed by Rubin and company were wildly unpopular and the Communist Party was going to win the 1996 Russian Federation election. We then proceeded to create Kosovo from Serbian territory, right in Russia's front yard, and our Secretary of State made it clear to Russia's foreign minister that Russia would have no say in the matter despite its geographic proximity. Then we went through multiple rounds of NATO expansion, demonstrated that we didn't care about international law by invading Iraq (for which the Baltic countries got NATO membership for their symbolic support) and in 2008 made the Bucharest Declaration, which Putin called a "red line" at the time. We never withdrew the Bucharest Declaration and *15 years later* Russia invaded. McFaul is flatly and completely wrong about the US taking Russian security interests into account. This is not a serious substantive argument and it reflect the perspective bias I mentioned earlier. (2) "It's all about Putin's definition of Russian interests." No. No legitimate Russian head of state would accept the expansion of a hostile military alliance on their border. Think back to American history. Why did multiple American Presidents from different political parties go through great lengths to wreck Latin American states that they suspected *might* have been sympathetic to Communism? Because anyone sitting in the Oval Office was going to perceive those potential threats the same way. Russia is not different in this respect. NATO expansion was never, ever a controversial topic in Russian national security circles and there was universal agreement on it. William Burns, now director of the CIA wrote a memo to Condi Rice in 2008 where he said "every Russian I have talked to from the biggest knuckle-draggers in the Kremlins to Putin's sharpest liberal critics opposes NATO expansion and sees it as a red line." I guess McFaul didn't get that memo. (3) "Appeasement never works." Perhaps Putin thinks that attempting to appease the US for a quarter of a century proved unfruitful, no? Does McFaul realize that we are in Russia's face, and Russia is not in our face? McFaul's immature style makes the immature and ill-considered substance of his arguments unsurprising. Sadly our diplomatic bureaucracy is full of empty suits like him.

[@elliottcovert3796]

@Jon Little A person who argues in as immature a fashion as McFaul stylistically has no credibility on substance and unsurprisingly this is true in McFaul's case, just like the other Beltway blob members. (1) A casual examination of the historical record shows exactly the opposite of what you claim. The United States never listened to Russia's concerns. "Listening" does not imply agreement or disagreement when it comes to geopolitics, it means making concessions to respect another state's core security concerns. We didn't do that, we did exactly the opposite. Look at the record of conduct that I articulated in my last post. Since the collapse of the USSR, the United States repeatedly did what it wanted to do and disregarded Russia's concerns. Actions speak louder than words, and it was inevitable that Russia would push back. George Kennan predicted as much before Poland was incorporated into NATO. If you chose to respond again, please tell me what we actually *did* which acknowledged respect for Russia's core security concerns. (2) "But Alexi Navalny said the opposite of what Putin said!" That's because Navalny thinks that support from the West -- not support among Russians -- is his ticket to political power in Russia. It is *not* the case that 50% of Russians agree with Navalny on national security issues. Likewise, a marginal figure like Jill Stein or Eugene Debbs wouldn't represent anything close to the national consensus on American geopolitical security issues. As you are surely aware, 90% of Russians supported the annexation of Crimea. And as you are surely aware, Putin is not doing anything with respect to Ukraine that George W. Bush didn't do with massive popular support in Iraq in 2003. The only difference is that Ukraine, unlike Iraq, is right on his country's border. (3) If Mearsheimer said that appeasement never works then he was wrong about that. He's right about this issue substantively -- and of course, you are much more concerned with substance than style, so surely you can see that quote mining is a rhetorical technique that is not related to the merits of an argument, no? Of course, I can tell that you will accept none of this because you, like McFaul, are so deeply entrenched in the liberal narrative of American history that you cannot accept that world history looks quite different to people and leaders in different countries, and we don't look like the good guys from their points of view. Just as Latin America about how much the US respects international law.

[@puhelimentili805]

McFaul: "we didn't kill him...😉 " Killary: "We came, We saw, He died... Cackle, cackle... "

[@gmw3083]

That's Mcfowls game. Ignoring reality as it suits. He basically says it outright. Real (whirled) diplomacy is all.... ll... eyes. But trust us.

[@gmw3083]

Then he says zelensky offered the neutral UKR option. Conveniently ignoring that Lloyd Austin and Anthony Blinken shut that option down immediately.

[@gmw3083]

@Jon Little zelensky was hand picked by kolimoivsky and Victoria Nuland to play his role.

[@khersey6167]

@@gmw3083 (embarrassed to be American) ;) NOT -- but disgusted by war hawk tools 👍 💚 🇺🇸 😎

[@gmw3083]

@@khersey6167 i already tummed up your comment but had no time to reply. Thought you might like to know your wirds are hidden from the thread. Might be the wird (wore). Not sure. There are many triggers for the censor bots. Spelunking wrong helps. If you log out and view a thread you will see which of your comments are visible to to the general assembly. Yt has created a personalized safe zone play pen for all of us. So considerate.

[@V12F1Demon]

This really shows that our Western audiences live in a bubble, enable their govts actions & collectively keep making the same mistakes having learnt nothing from the Iraq war let alone, Dubya's recent admission. The levels of disinformation around this war will be discussed in 10-20yrs time just as we now acknowledge the mistakes that led to the Iraq, Libyan, Syrian wars assuming, there's a world left standing.

[@joeroganpodfantasy42]

Everyone lives in a bubble in Russia too if we didn't there would be no unity and we would collapse.

[@V12F1Demon]

@@joeroganpodfantasy42 What bubble is that exactly?

[@johntogo8608]

@@V12F1Demon ..........The bubble of self righteousness.

[@miguelmachado3259]

Absolutely Right!

[@V12F1Demon]

@@thetshirtblog Be ignorant elsewhere or grow up.

[@Jonas_Bro]

Widać, że Mearsheimer ciągle żyje w latach 80. Rosja nie jest żadną potęgą, ani tym bardziej mocarstwem. To kolos na glinianych nogach, którego populacja wymiera w zastraszającym tempie, a sama gospodarka jest mniejsza niż gospodarka wielu kilkukrotnie mniejszych krajów europejskich. Dlaczego ktoś miałby zgadzać się na ich irracjonalne żądania? Próbowano tego w latach 30 ubiegłego wieku żeby zapobiec wojnie i wszyscy wiemy jak to się skończyło.

[@zbyszanna]

Ja bym wręcz powiedział, że on nie tylko żyje w tych czasach, ale wręcz chce, żeby te czasy trwały. Być może to tylko takie moje odczucie, ale dla mnie to wygląda tak, jakby chciał powstrzymać zachód, żeby przypadkiem Putina nie obalił, bo się nagle świat zrobi dużo prostszy i zniknie jeden biegun.

[@bobzaba4842]

Kolos na glinianych nogach ktory siedzi na atomie i moze Europe i Ameryke zrownac z ziemia jak zostanie przyparty do muru..... Zagrajmy w ruska ruletke i przyprzyjmy go do muru...

[@Jonas_Bro]

@@bobzaba4842 Radzę poczytać o zjawisku "stability-instability paradox" i "nuclear peace". W skrócie, jeśli dwa wrogie sobie państwa (albo szerzej obozy polityczne) posiadają broń jądrową to groźba jej użycia drastycznie maleje.

[@GaneshGunaji]

Appeasement did work though. Chamberlain's appeasement bought Britain time to build up their military. They could never have fought Nazi Germany back then. They would have lost miserably, and it would have been worse for them. I'm not saying to blindly give in to Putin, but cutting a deal spares everyone a very costly and bloody war. If the terms are attractive enough for each side, it will outweigh the utility of the war itself.

[@Mish844]

@@zbyszanna chyba nawet nie zdajesz sobie sprawę jak bardzo masz rację z tym że on żyje w tych czasach - realiści geopolityczni bardzo ciężko trawią upadek ZSRR, bo w ich predykcjach, ten balans sił miał być podstawą pokoju i trwać literalnie setki lat. Po upadku muru berlińskiego sam Mearsheimer tak ciężko wciągał copium że zamiast przejść z tym do porządku dziennego i zacząć pracować nad nowym modelem predykcyjnym dla zmienionego układu sił w Europie, postanowił pisać postulaty abyśmy dalej utrzymywali układ warszawski, tylko po to żeby się jego model nie rozsypał. Fakt że to nie było w naszym interesie i byliśmy w pozycji żeby nie dawać tym idiotycznym pomysłom tlenu jest pochodną jego realizmu w którym jesteś albo mocarstwem albo żetonem pokerowym, który nie ma nic do gadania i to przeświadczenie jest podstawą czemu Mearsheimer jest tak lubiany przez ruskie onuce - z założenia, na poziomie doktrynalnym ma wylane w naszą sprawczość.

[@matthewmekonnen6587]

Do as we say and NOT as we do seems Michael's position..

[@dexterr3txed664]

A Hippo named Chrissy

[@shari6063]

And he clearly stated the American diplomats lie. Lex Friedman just did a great podcast with Oliver Stone on Russia and Ukraine. He talked a lot about Kennedy.

[@shari6063]

@Jon Little I definitely misunderstood you! 😂

[@elliottcovert3796]

It pains me that our foreign policy bureaucracy is filled with people as petty, dumb, and willfully ignorant as McFaul. There are precious few figures like Jack Matlock or George Kennan in the current iteration of the American diplomatic elite.

[@PeterXiao1]

He's in fact an imperialist

[@amirtawfik7495]

Cant believe the nonsense of McFaul, Sikorsky My vote is for Mearsheimer, Walt ✌️

[@nicholasjohnson778]

Yeah, Putin has gotten a raw deal in the media; we all know NATO poses an existential threat to Russia. Doesn’t everyone recognize that Putin didn’t have to make up a long list of strange rationales for invading… no, he just needed to point out the threat from NATO to his people, who of course worried about NATO on a daily basis. With his well prepared military and the vast majority of the public willing to counter this clear threat… it’s only a matter time before the Ukrainians wished they had cut a deal while it was still possible. Realists… they love their theory so much, they’ll conjure up any excuse to make it relevant.

[@RedXlV]

That's because you're a shill for Russia.

[@amirtawfik7495]

@@RedXlV No, i am not…. Far from it, but I prefer reality rather than fantasy when it comes to people lives & future of all mankind. I prefer be more fair, unbiased and listen to all sides claims so then to support real peace. Know that propaganda methods can be used by any and from both sides (east/west) Some of the propaganda principles are to act like a charming hero that argue in loud voice, smirk on others speeches, use emotional spiritual narratives, use public speculations as solid facts, exaggerate or skip facts to support them. I saw some of that in McFaul and Sikorsky

[@Liberty73_NA]

1:15:48 So basically Russia was justified (in their minds, anyway) in going to war in Ukraine. Thinkers knew that already, but it is nice to see a policymaker admit it. We are constantly lied to. Do you see it yet?

[@404Dannyboy]

No one starts a war they don't feel is justified. Hitler felt justified in France and Russia. Stalin felt justified in Poland. Japan felt justified in China. Just because you are justified in your mind does not at all mean that you are justified in reality.

[@nickbrodziak611]

@kızgın tosbağa EXACTLY!!

[@davidh3985]

@kızgın tosbağa For Afghanistan, I think it was to support the communist government which was fighting an insurgency in the 1980's. For Syria, to me it seemed like an attempt to keep Assad in power and commit war crimes against the civilian population. Any other whataboutisms you want to elaborate on?

[@arturganczarski500]

@kızgın tosbağa So what? How does it make Russia's war any better than the American wars?

[@AntonSobyanin]

@@arturganczarski500 Then maybe we can discuss sanctions against the United States and NATO countries? Oh, yes, you can't condemn yourself. After that, you have the audacity to teach someone morality. Hypocrites.

[@zbyszanna]

Tyle było mowy o ratowaniu ukraińskich żyć, ale czy im przyszło do głowy, żeby zapytać o to samych Ukraińców? Zachód nie wpycha Ukraińcom broni i nie wysyła ich na front, oni sami tego przecież chcą. Zasłanianie się troską o Ukraińców wydaje się mocno fałszywe.

[@bobzaba4842]

Nie. Zachod im tylko wczesniej odpowiednio wypral mozgi...

[@RoboStuk]

Oni gadają tak jakby nie słyszeli o aneksji Krymu, wojnie na Donbasie i innych działaniach Putina. To wygląda tak jakby nagle zauważyli, że coś się dzieje na Ukrainie i stwierdzili - ratunku, kończmy to, jest niebezpiecznie! Jakaś straszna ignorancja z tego bije i brak jakiegokolwiek zrozumienia sytuacji.

[@MrAniseable]

@@RoboStuk Możliwe, że te wszystkie leśne dziadki właśnie taką mają 'wiedzę' jak to przedstawiłeś

[@imagrandpa]

US is proving to Russia that Ukraine is a,ready a de facto state!

[@RZ-bw9vf]

@@RoboStuk Krym jest zapisany w historii ze dobry Chruszow podarowal Krym USRR w 1954 r jak rozliczamy prawde to o tym trzeba wspomnac , a jesli cofniemy sie dalej to Krym nie byl tez Rosyjski ,ale tez nie Ukrainski .

[@jerzybognat1182]

Two pacyfist,przypominaja mi 1939 i wysilki Chamberlina z Angli.Pokoj za wszelka cene kosztem innych.Poddac wszystko by tylko byl pokoj.Debilne myslenie zza oceanu,P.Sikorski w najlepszym wydaniu.

[@bobzaba4842]

Dokladnie. Tez jestem za tym aby w putina walnac z grubej rury... Te jego atomki to zaslona dymna... Nie istnieja... A jak istnieja to jest zlom... A nawet jak nie wszystkie zlom to tylko kilka jest w stanie odpalic... A nawet jak je odpali to rosja bedzie zrownana z ziemia, a te kilka ruskich sarmatow co spadna na Polske i pare innych krajow europejskich to pestka...

[@BM-ur4je]

Radek PLUS McFaul który w 100% popiera dokładnie ta samą opinię. Jego wieloletnia staż jako ambasador USA do Rosji, biegła znajomość języka rosyjskiego oraz nie typowo praktyczne (a nie ściśle akademickie) podejście do całej sprawy wyróżnia go od większości tzw naukowców oraz "dyplomatów". Proszę spojrzeć na jego Twitter aby na bieżąco rozumieć jego b. cenne podejście. Stąd też względnie szybkie posunięcia USA w stosunku do Ukraini. McFaul od pierwszego dnia cisnął na "closing the skies".

[@klaudiagrob]

No wlasnie.

[@ronsonclinowski5649]

Wydaje się ze oni racjonalnie oceniają sytuacje, druga strona sprawia wrażenie jakby ta wojna na rękę właściwie była

[@mkj1951]

The important thing to note here is you can win debates by lying.

[@lehunzawellnesslongevityce3643]

Sadly believing more of the lies and not the truth.

[@mojoomla]

It shows the intellectual level and maturity of the audience that it chooses to be influenced by the war mongerers even when the stakes are as high as the possibility of global nuclear war !

[@shari6063]

Nice.

[@DianelosGeorgoudis]

Emotions are stronger than facts. And I was impressed with how the emotionals kept repeating claims the realists had just disproved. If you just keep repeating a lie no matter what, people will tend to believe it.

[@ShammuaMekonnen]

Yeah, both former Politicians were lying.

[@greenrosenz]

I think this war is 8 years old with at least 14,000 civilians killed before this conflict escalation.

[@fevgg]

most of them in Donbass in uncontrolled territory, more than 500 are children. Murdered by Ukrainian Nazi troops. Many of them under jewish president

[@Thanatos1982a]

ahem, nope - absolute majority of those 14000 people killed were combatants of both sides. For example, during the whole year of 2021, in total, 6 civilians in DNR were killed as a result of war (landmines included)

[@fevgg]

@@Thanatos1982a yes, from both side, but mostly were killed from DNR side. All childrened who were killed were only from DNR side

[@Thanatos1982a]

@@fevgg not really, that would be statistically impossible. For example, I just checked shelling of Mariupol in 2015 by Grad rockets and it killed 40 civilians, including two children.

[@fevgg]

@@Thanatos1982a you don't have any clue what you're talking about. Nazies shelled cities and killed civilians, LDNR responded to fortified areas. That the difference. Don't apoligize Nazies

[@acuranrx4525]

I love the arguments: RUSSIA BAD, PUTIN BAD, NATO DID NOTHING. That is an utter joke.

[@gebbygr7932]

Poland is a servant of the USA🐶

[@TheNoxmage]

Those arguments are working so why change anything? America always in dire need for a big bad enemy to control as much oil in the world. Look for places USA have military control over and what happened with government’s over there.

[@kazimierzpryk5526]

Pan Sikorski w znakomitej formie! Choć nie sympatyzuję z jego opcją polityczną, to serdecznie gratuluję świetnej postawy.

[@tomaszslaczalek7505]

Dokladnie tak zgadzam się geopolityka jest mocna strona Pana Sikorskiego

[@asiap1089]

Three native speakers and Radek Sikorski ;) chapeau bas Your Excellency

[@MR-G-Rod]

Radoslaw and Michael selling that snake oil. John Mearsheimer is a national treasure and should be a household name in America.

[@VincentVan2]

Kliknąłem w filmik niechcący, a przesłuchałem całą godzinę i czterdzieści dwie minuty. Tak, jak inni komentujący, chciałbym, aby w Polsce debaty były przeprowadzane z taką klasą

[@sandwind123456789]

Owszem debata dobra jednak pewne punkty nie wyjasnione. Np twierdzene ze nie bylo na tapecie wlaczanie Ukrainy do NATO wiec atak Rosjan pod takim pretekstem oraz negocjacje pokojowe i zakonczenie wojny zapewniajac ze Ukraina bedzie neutralna jest zupelnie bez sensu. Tymczasem mozna znalezc na necie artykul z Wall Street Journal. Cytuje Mr. Scholz made one last push for a settlement between Moscow and Kyiv. He told Mr. Zelensky in Munich on Feb. 19 that Ukraine should renounce its NATO aspirations and declare neutrality as part of a wider European security deal between the West and Russia.The pact would be signed by Mr. Putin and Mr. Biden, who would jointly guarantee Ukraine’s security. Mr. Zelensky said Mr. Putin couldn’t be trusted to uphold such an agreement and that most Ukrainians wanted to join NATO. Zeby znalezc artykul wystarczy wpisac w google Vladimir Putin’s 20-Year March to War wsj

[@michals6672]

@@sandwind123456789 przestań uprawiać ruską propagandę, Ukraina nie została zaproszona do NATO w 2008 roku i to był największy błąd, putin widząc to mógł spokojnie planować atak na Ukrainę, to go ośmieliło, opowiadanie, że atak na Ukrainę był spowodowany przez NATO i żeby zdenazyfikować Ukrainę to wierutne bzdury. Ukraińcy wiedzieli, że to walka z czasem i muszą jak najszybciej wejść do NATO zanim putin zaatakuje. niestety co się stało wszyscy widzimy. Oglądałem niedawno wywiad a Aleksandrem Kwaśniewskim, w którym opowiadał jak Borys Jelcyn tuż przed wejściem Polski do NATO prosił go, żeby tego nie robił i dawał Polsce pisemne gwarancje bezpieczeństwa, jeżeli Polska nie wejdzie do NATO. Kwaśniewski się tylko uśmiechnął, pisemne gwarancje bezpieczeństwa od Rosji???!!! wszyscy wiemy jak to by się dla Polski skończyło. Ukraina też dostała pisemne gwarancje bezpieczeństwa i nienaruszalności granic od Rosji po tym jak zgodziła się oddać swój arsenał jądrowy w 1994 roku, jak się to skończyło to wszyscy widzimy… miejmy nadzieje, że nie będzie mowy o żadnej neutralności Ukrainy po wojnie i Ukraina wejdzie do NATO.

[@sandwind123456789]

@@michals6672 Wytlumacz mi czemu uwazasz ze to co pisze Wall Street Journal (WSJ) to ruska propagana? Czyli Niemcy nie chcieli zarzegnac wojny proponujac Ukrainie neutralnosc gwarantowana przez USA i Rosje ale Ukraina to odrzucila czy nie? Jest tez wypowiedz doradcy prezydenta Ukrainy z marca 2019 roku ktory dokladnie mowi ze na 99% beda mieli duza wojne z Rosja z powodu ich przystepowania do NATO i ze Rosja musi zaatakowac zanim przystapia do NATO. Jak chce to ci znajde ta wypowiedz. No chyba ze Nie tylko WSJ ale nawet doradca prezydenta Ukrainy to ruski troll i ruska propaganda to nie bede szukal bo juz wszystko wiesz sam.

[@farzana6676]

I would like Poland to stop protecting the traitorous Hungarians in the EU and possibly NATO.

[@midi5581]

@@sandwind123456789 No czyli nie było zgody Niemców na włączenie UA do NATO. Do tego jakimś dziwnym trafem Finlandia i Szwecja jakoś dostają obietnice szybkiej procedury przyjęcia, RU nie bombarduje Helsinek, Putin twierdzi, że to nie zagrożenie. Tak więc jak widać, kwestia NATO to tylko pretekst, ruscy chcieli powtórzyć Czechosłowację 68, doktryna Breżniewa.

[@AlR-db2mm]

The NATO (USA) will fight Russia to the last Ukrainian. Very sad.

[@flycrack7686]

Ukrain fighting for themselves. Very sad that they have no support against the invaders

[@cbskwkdnslwhanznamdm2849]

Ukrainians beg for more weapons and sanctions because back in reality they know the more damage to Russia they do the more of their country they can keep. Deplorable how many brats treat foreign policy like some virtue signaling therapy.

[@giftedtheos]

What is very sad is dictator Putin invading sovereign countries

[@sureshadusumilli4960]

Perhaps the current US administration would be more understanding of Russia's security concerns if Russia had formed a NATO like military pact along with other countries in the Americas. The response then by the Americans, would be quite interesting (Monroe Doctrine). The Cuban Missile crisis is a case in point.

[@teddybearmonster]

Russia do have this alliance. Check them out, they just had a meeting.

[@zhoubaidinh403]

America is not Russia

[@master1941]

@@zhoubaidinh403 No,that's why my country México won't do never an Ukraine. America would have invaded in a second

[@elliottcovert3796]

@@teddybearmonster The key difference is that this alliance does not have members in North America, in the US sphere of influence. NATO, by contrast, is right in Russia's face.

[@zhoubaidinh403]

@@master1941 That's right my brotha'...you gotta' do what you gotta' do in this dog eat dog world to survive.

[@PutinTerapevtEuropi]

U.S. policy toward Iran has been a failure too: The war in Iraq enhanced Iran’s regional influence, and ratcheting up sanctions didn’t stop Tehran from acquiring the capacity to build a nuclear weapon if it ever decides to do so. Unfortunately, Trump abandoned the 2015 deal that shrank Iran’s enrichment capacity and stockpile of nuclear materials and extended its “breakout time,” and his administration subsequently threatened to sanction several U.S allies (all of them members of the “free world” by the way) if they stuck to the agreement (which had also been unanimously endorsed by the United Nations Security Council). And what was the end result of this brilliant demonstration of U.S. leadership? Iran is closer than ever to building a bomb, and the Biden administration has been unable to find a way back to the original deal.

[@Almoniification]

What you wrote is true if you assume US goals was to prevent Iranian nuclear programme. If you assume their goal was to sabotage any agreements and any attemps to build an agreement between Iran and other countries of Middle East or, let's say Israel, for example, I would argue US were exceptionally successive. They ruined any attemp to stabilize relations between Nothern and Sounthern Koreas and Japan in a same exact way. And nobody blames US for it. An outstanding victory, I would say.

[@delta0307]

So what if they have a bomb? Only US EU is allowed to have a bomb? If US stops threatening Iran maybe they wouldn't think about creating a bomb in the first place. US has bombed and wrecked both Iraq and Afghanistan both neighbors of Iran. They know if they don't have their own bomb, they will follow suit like Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya. They know the only thing keeping US from invading them is their nuke. Same with Nokor

[@warbler1984]

But your own comment contradicts this. The sanctions brought them to the table to discuss nuclear treaty

[@markbujdos584]

Get a load of this Sikorski guy: "the test of the Realist theory should be its predictive power." Does he not know that Mearsheimer predicted the outcome in Ukraine in a Univ. of Chicago lecture way back in 2015?

[@RedXlV]

You mean when he predicted that there was no way Putin would be stupid enough to try to conquer Ukraine?

[@kevinmcinerney1959]

I can't think of a better set of participants to discuss this issue at this time than the two most prominent neo-realists and the two most prominent Putin skeptics. Either directly or indirectly the Mearsheimer school and the McFaul school have been sniping at each other since Russian aggression against Ukraine began to escalate. We need to hear these alternative viewpoints articulated and challenged. Well done Munk for making this happen. Very interesting that there are so many comments in Polish here.

[@TorianTammas]

Amusingly this is no topic in Europe as we see the war of aggression on our borders. We know we are next if we don't stop Putin Today.

[@dipthongthathongthongthong9691]

@@TorianTammas What country are you in? Using "Europe" broadly is a bit lazy my friend. Will Putin invade Ireland? How about Greece? You really think Putin wants to try to manage insurgencies and more conventional war in perpetuity when he has natural resources you need to buy from him? Sorry, there's no evidence he wants to "conquer" Europe. Mearsheimer's correct here.

[@Rai2M]

@@TorianTammas Moldova-Kazakstan-Georgia are way more possible targets (i just hope you're not from one of these countries). But i do believe in Ukraine and ukrainians, though i'm from Russia myself.

[@argon8908]

​@@Rai2M there is no proof at all that Russia wants to completely get those countries. If NATO minded its own business what's happening in Ukraine or what happened in Georgia wouldn't have happened. Russia had literally one request: no NATO expansion to the east. But the west knew exactly what it was doing when they kept expanding. You would think that at least Russian people would understand this, but it seems that some like you have already been brainwashed by the west. you might as well renounce your Russian citizenship if you have it lol. In the future you would probably cheer as NATO invades and destroys Russia as a country, take its resources, and kills many Russian civilians. At that point Russia as a country wouldn't exist anymore. NATO isnt just a "defensive" alliance, and If you think that isnt one of NATO ultimate goals you are delusional.

[@argon8908]

@@TorianTammas "We ArE NeXt" lol how clueless can you be. There is no proof that Putin wants to attack Poland, or other countries. Even Putin is not that stupid to attack a NATO country. His main request was no NATO expansion, but alas, your overlords in the USA want different. If anything, in the future, NATO will invade Russia to take its resources and destroy it as a country, so that Russia ceases to exist, and your country, like a good boy, will do what its US masters will say.

[@alecfoster5542]

Debate starts at 2:35. You're welcome.

[@notastone4832]

if putin was not in power, Medvedev would be.. and hes MORE of a hawk these days

[@freddiepizerhall8324]

@Peter Facka Normally when authoritarian leaders first enter power they reform and seem democratic. Let’s not forget the west thought Russia was becoming liberal in Putins early days.

[@facelessgod-kg7xk]

@Peter Facka is that from western media? Is so, azov got evacuated to Siberia. Putin is respected by othet small countries who get mess up by NATO

[@youtubeuser206]

@Peter Facka forced to step down? Medvedev is still very much influential and in a position of power, leading the national security council

[@youtubeuser206]

@Peter Facka he was the prime minister until 2020 😂😂

[@arjan2777]

Or is the just more a hawk because that is what Putin wants? You have no idea and neither do I.

[@richardgasiorek4943]

Jestem porazony argumentacja oponentow, chociaz znalem zdanie profesora sprzed wojny na Ukrainie. Tu dopiero widac jaka robote powinna wykonac nasza dyplomacja. Super argumentacja Panie Radku, gratuluje zawojowania publicznosci.

[@sevwoz8342]

Nadal zasadnicze pytanie nie zostalo odpowiedziane. Co to oznacza dokonczyc rosjan i czy wogole oni sie dadza tak dokonczyc? a moze stworzymy sobie jeszcze bardziej anty zachodnie 150 milionowe spoleczenstwo za pare lat, moze jeszcze gorszy drugi Putin nam sie objawi...co pewnie pentagonowi na reke bo przeciez nieustanna wojna to biznes i dominacja.

[@KH-lg3xc]

Specjalnie tak dobrali oponentów, żeby nawet Pan Rambosław - "magister za 10 funtów" mógł zabłysnąć

[@piotrtomaszewski4523]

@@KH-lg3xc szkoda , że milord nie został zaproszony , byś impokazał co ? @K H

[@Anakeish]

@@KH-lg3xc Its Its ITs ITs Its ITs ITs Its Its ITs. To twój poziom debat i magister za 5 funtów Andrej Dudek?

[@bogdanbaudis4099]

"Prof. Marshmallow" (tak go nazywam) kiedyś napisał teorię stosunków pomiędzy "wielkimi potęgami". Początkowo nawet mi się to podobało, jako próba wprowadzenia bardziej ścisłej metodyki naukowej do dziedziny która niekoniecznie była z tego znana. Prof. popełnił wg. mnie parę błedów, głównie w stylu "parę mostów za daleko", dokładnie chodzi o "mosty" abstrakcji. Abstrakcja jej bardzo użyteczna w tworzeniu teori, odrzucenie rzeczy mniej ważnych pozwala zająć się tymi ważnymi i zapanować nad komplikacjami. Problem jest w doborze co jest a co nie jest ważne: jak się odrzuci za dużo to teoria może się nie stosować do rzeczywistości. Pan Profesor odrzucił jako nieistotne: kulturę, historię, ideologię/religię i czynniki/ruchy międzynardowe (jak np. terroryzm ...). Nawet ekonomia została ledwo zauważona ... To spowodowało że jego teoria nie tylko nie przewiduje przszłości ale i nie może też wytłumaczyć wiele historycznie znanych faktów. Ale to by było OK, od czegoś trzeba zacząć, dobre teorie nie rodzą się od razu całe jak Atena z głowy Zeusa (albo mechanika klasyczna od jabłka uderzajacego głowę Newtona). Niestety, Pan Profesor zamiast zacząć poprawiać swoje dzieło zamienił się z naukowca w adwokata i praktycznie niczym innym się nie zajmuje tylko ciągłą jej obroną, dokonując coraz dziwniejszych akrobacji intelektualnych, jak widać, w końcu zaprzeczając sobie. Ma szczęście że w jego dziedzinie "autorytet" jest ciągle ceniony bardziej niż logiczna i eksperymentalna poprawność, więc ciągle ma wystarczająco duzy tłum kibiców zeby trzymać katedrę. Gdyby to była matematyka albo fizyka nikt go by dawno nie pamietał.

[@carrotwax]

I wish the debaters wouldn't resort to polemic and pathos. The side that uses facts in a calm manner gets my vote.

[@dreed7312]

Facts aren't reasoned thinking. A machine can spit out facts all day long.

[@hatrick3117]

Yeah, let's pretend that old farts have any chances in democracy with their logic and absence of humour

[@remremsrisri4953]

Unfortunately we have always chosen either the loudest, the funniest, the best spoken to win and lead. Regardless whether they actually know what they are doing or having all the facts. That's why we always fight.

[@elmercy4968]

I was also surprised why they scream like politicians though this is only a debate. Makes it hard to focus on what is said.

[@sylwesteradam759]

Emotions are human. Unless they insult each other, it's how it should be.

[@loco29456]

Świetna debata ! Brawo panie Ministrze Sikorski ! ✌️🫡

[@georgetsiklauri]

Point, by Michael McFaul, that "US didn't go along with NATO enlargement after Bucharest 2008" is simply wrong (or a purposeful lie). US, on the contrary, have been pushing this yet another enlargement, and who really stood up against, were Germany, the UK, and France.

[@kattyman6577]

Agreed. McFaul was fake.

[@PolityczneLSD]

Świetne przemówienie. Chadosław Sikorski.

[@ROUNDTOP3]

Great lesson!

[@psramachandran7932]

Superb and high quality debate

[@teresaaljayyousi8447]

I wish they spoke more about the last 8 years.

[@jesusk1358]

Exactly. That's where the issue lies.

[@maryanchabursky9148]

If you want to understand the issue you would need to cover the last 500 years

[@tfarfolini9742]

Tok myślenia tych profesorow to jakaś tragedia. On sobie wybiera z wypowiedzi Putina co chce. Nie słyszeli o tym, ze NATO ma się cofnąć do Niemiec?

[@jk5042]

No, NATO is not supposed retreat to Germany. What Russia wanted was there were not to be any NATO bases with foreign troops in countries which joined NATO after 1997. Those countries could still be NATO members

[@asdasd-wx9qf]

@@jk5042 without military potential...

[@lukec8504]

@@jk5042 And de facto it means: move NATO back to Germany. Can NATO effectively defend its eastern borders without troops and military equipment?

[@greatgalaxy2118]

Dear Sikorski, Dobrie Dien, Please Take Note: 1) India was the jewel in the British crown and yet the British didnt handover India in a Graceful Manner, on the contrary it was totally in a DISGRACE, CHAOTIC MANNER, dividing 1 country into 3 i.e. Pakistan later on Bangaldesh. The result of division of India by Britain led the worlds largest human EXODUS i.e people Criss-Crossing India and Pakistan ca 25 million in 1947 (imagine how much would have the number been in presernt time).Sadly ill handover killed a couple of Millions of innocent civilians. 2) The handover of India was due to the AHIMSA/SATYA GRAHA,(Gandhism), Quit India Movement, miltiple Swatantra Sangram activities, And was not by the British Compassion- Dzieki "May Peace Prevail in the conflict zone"

[@feorh1919]

the majority of former crown colonies are now on fire

[@brygadasfm]

Why have you greeted Mr. Sikorski with "good day" in Russian?

[@dexterr3txed664]

@@brygadasfm "dobry dzień", "dobryy den'"... close enough for a non-speaker of both languages, don't you think (which I am not either as well)? It's obvious that Great Galaxy is Desi.

[@greenrosenz]

Mountbatten rushed the Indian/Pakistan independance because it was thought that there would even be more deaths if it were dragged out- even so, yes millions died & were displaced.

[@davidh3985]

Great, another Indian that blames the British for their problems, doesn't sound very productive. How about you try to sort out your problems with the muslims instead?

[@leo19957]

Germany also gave a guarantee to enforce the Minsk agreements. Wonder how that turned out.

[@RasPutintheGreat]

UA did not respect it.

[@theodemirweltmann9673]

Germany cannot (and could not) give any guarantees for compliance with the Minsk agreements. Germany simply did not have the capacity to see that they were respected, it was an empty phrase I guess.

[@ferrariguy8278]

It's also funny how Russia practically wrote the thing, but got to waive their hands about not being a signatory to it while simultaneously blaming Ukraine for breaking it all while Russia continued to actively supply and keep the conflict going in the region.

[@leo19957]

@@ferrariguy8278 that's exactly what happened

[@RasPutintheGreat]

@@ferrariguy8278 but why signed it? Minsk 1&2 were the results of nato protecting their own people from certain death or capture esp in 2015 when UA and (some)NATO forces esp high ranking Germans. *Russia continues to actively supply and keep the conflict going. - what do you expect Russia supposed to do? Turn their backs on their own people? If they did not support or stop supporting ethnic Russians in Eastern Ukraine, they could have been murdered by Azov, UA and nato forces. I guess the loss of 14,000 people is not enough for you eh? And if UA respected the Minsk agreement on which they agreed and signed it, these could have been avoided but no! so look at them now. I have more sympathy with the AKs they used and being kicked by Chechens after they're killed in combat than UA's fighting forces.

[@marisolbolivia9174]

Stephen and John, very smart and polite!!!

[@warbler1984]

"Neville Chamberlain, very smart and polite!!!"

[@kenneth.topp.]

We are in bad hands. When McFaul says that we were addressing Russia's security concerns with this helsinki 2.0 proposal, and then couldn't for 90 minutes explain what Russia's security concerns is telling. The Helsinki 2.0 proposal was leaked to el pais newspaper and you can see what it was and decide for yourself if this path we are on is designed to end the war as quickly as possible.

[@TorianTammas]

The only way to stop Putin a narcissistic, imperialist bully it to teach him hiw little hus army is and that he loses. In 2014 he invaded Ukraibe and got hungry for more as it was so easy

[@dipthongthathongthongthong9691]

Yeah, and can we talk about McFaul fomenting dissent and opposition forces from his embassy in Moscow??? "But but we're promoting democracy for the good of the people..." Same old USA, nothing changes.

[@Rai2M]

@@dipthongthathongthongthong9691 hello, russian bot

[@dipthongthathongthongthong9691]

@@Rai2M Hello child who has no ability to refute any claims people make against the mainstream narrative and thus must resort to unoriginal personal attacks. 👍

[@RBurns80]

McFaul doesn't believe Russia has interests. He and the Polish guy spent the entire debate making up a strawman where if you acknowledge any Russian interests in Ukraine(eg Crimea where the Black Sea fleet has been stationed for 250 years) then you're telling Putin he can have all of Europe. I don't think the audience understands the history of Ukraine, the relationship between the Ukrainians and Russians, and the demographics of the Donbass and Crimea.

[@mariajurgens9889]

If it is clear, that Ukraine will not be member of NATO, why not fix it in a treaty? Why there exists a treaty between USA and Ukraine what says USA will support Ukraine by entering NATO, ( "US - Ukraine Charter on Strategic Partnership" from November 2021)

[@marathonx3]

It is in the Ukrainian Constitution that they will join NATO.

[@elliottcovert3796]

The United States already broke its promise on NATO expansion multiple times since 1990. Russia's leaders had no reason to suspect that we wouldn't just reverse course on Ukrainian NATO membership when it became convenient to do so. My goodness, we saw Trump tear up the Iran nuclear deal simply because he didn't like it. "Trust us" is not going to be a persuasive argument when we behave like this.

[@annasavarino10]

Cause they want to spite the Russians. Thats all this is about in the end.

[@greenrosenz]

Because the Secretary General of Nato said it was non of Russis'xxs business. If I were Russian & Nato was ever increasing it's proximity I would definitely be concerned...hence Putin's rise in popularity.

[@alexbullet9165]

Because In NATO documents it says that NATO decides who can join and who can't. So if they agree to let Russia decide then it shows that NATO can be threatened into doing things and for a millitary alliance that's not a good thing.

[@D4NK1]

The same people that say it's ridiculous to expect a democratically elected leader in Ukraine to let a piece of his country go, think that the only road to peace in the Balkans is Serbia recognising Kosovo as independent because it's already a fait accompli. One rule for me and another rule for you

[@davidh3985]

Well if the democratically elected leader commits genocide against another ethnic group in his country, others are going to take issue with it. Especially after they failed to act in Rwanda and Srebrenica just a couple of years earlier. Your argument is limping pretty badly.

[@CyanideBtm]

Double standards

[@D4NK1]

@Peter Facka there's always "differences"

[@D4NK1]

@Peter Facka yes they are "significant differences". The same people that say Hungary isn't a democracy, think UK a literal kingdom with an unelected upper house is a democracy.the same people that say Putin is a lunatic for saying Russia is exceptional (which I've never heard) believe that a us president shouldn't be elected unless he believes in American exceptionalism...and so on and so on...but there's always "significant differences" in every situation isn't there?

[@D4NK1]

@Peter Facka please you can say whatever you want to me, just don't compare us (Serbs) to Poles. We have enough problems

[@abeaboud272]

FYI: Ukraine never "owned" the largest nuclear stockpile; those were always controlled by Moscow. East Germany and Poland had Soviet nuclear weapons at one point too, but those were also pulled out. This is like saying Turkey had to give up its nuclear weapons in 1962 when in fact those were US nuclear missiles stationed in Turkey as part of NATO, and the US removed them in exchange for pulling Soviet missiles out of Cuba. Also, Crimea - which is majority ethnic Russians - was "gifted" to Ukraine by Khrushchev in a controversial gesture to the Ukrainian Soviet. Those populations and their territories will be annexed by Russia, and the Ukrainian ultra-nationalists have given Russia the perfect reasons to do so.

[@rachedel-moctar4290]

This is not entirely correct. As Mearsheimer pointed out in his 1993 piece, the Ukrainians were developing a native command and control system for use of those warheads, and perhaps even have the capability to use some of them at short notice.

[@elliottcovert3796]

Exactly. All of the actual know-how on how to use those weapons was with Russian members of the Soviet armed forces.

[@mmeade9402]

@@elliottcovert3796 So the Ukrainians had the technical means to build the missiles(they were designed and manufactured in Dnipro) but they couldnt figure out how to reprogram the launch software or how to sit in the silo control room and turn the two keys and push the two buttons simultaneously. Interesting theory....

[@Kealen69]

The difference is that Ukraine was ther center of Soviet missile design, the ships produced in Ukrainian shipyards were kept, the nuclear missiles made in Ukraine and stationed in Ukraine were kept. The command and control system was indeed Moscow based, the accord was to prevent Ukraine from building their own nuclear command system and bringing those nukes online again.

[@edvsilas8281]

Abe Aboud . As to actually who owns the nukes in Ukraine isn't relevant ,we all know that these nuke are US owned. Also, if I lived in the Donbas under constant bombing by the Ukraine for 8 years and 14,000 Donbas casualties, I'd most certainly would prefer annexation /protection by Russia.

[@JeremiaszCzeresniowiecki]

Sikorski klasa, wypadł naprawdę dobrze. Cokolwiek bym nie sądził o jego działalności na polskiej scenie politycznej to trzeba to teraz przyznać.

[@KH-lg3xc]

Prawie, jak Stefan Bandera.

[@wojciechtokarski9549]

this is Putin's agent. Together with Tusk, they sold Poland

[@RoboStuk]

@@KH-lg3xc Twój komentarz kompletnie jest bez sensu, po prostu masz główkę naładowaną Banderami i Wołyniami więc twój móżdżek produkuje losowe zdania z użyciem tych słów. Zachęcam do większego otwarcia na dar myślenia.

[@snowbaord]

@@RoboStuk przejechane walcem XD

[@pterodaktyl6755]

Pan Sikorski jak zwykle z klasą i doświadczeniem. Chciałbym żeby tacy politycy zasiadali w polskim MSZ.

[@marektln]

@@zenqq1458 premię za budowę lotniska w Baranowie i fabrykę samochodów akumulatorowych rozdawał Sikorski?

[@KH-lg3xc]

Doświadczony - chapał na niejednej posadzie.

[@adamek0020]

@@zenqq1458 Zapomnieliśmy, bo jakoś nawet ziobrowska prokuratura nie jest w stanie znaleźć w tym przestępstw. Poza tym miliard złotych kary za Ziobrę przykryje każdego.

[@johnlee-yo8jc]

This debate showed one thing - people are really stupid. I feel sorry for Prof Mearsheimer.

[@aleksandrekurdiani7224]

People are waking up tho. Growing support is recognisable in the world for anti-globalist ideas. Of course the collective west is not going to wake up, but the rest of the world is on the right side, and even in the west, there has been growing concern about the ideas that the globalists are advocating for.

[@zayinusa8]

Why deleting comments??

[@radosawkmita6571]

Amazing debate!

[@thezakson]

Świetna debata, życzę sobie, żebysmy w końcu przyjęli taką formę rozmowy w naszym kraju. Co do debaty, jest Pan doskonałą wizytówką Polski, a jej wynik tylko pokazuje, jak ważna jest dyskusja na ten temat w krajach zachodnich. Życzę zdrowia i wytrwałości.

[@POLISHAMERICANLEGIONS]

I am Polish American and I have to say Michael McFaul, Radosław Sikorski are the globalist pigs. kanalias.

[@kolomentseva]

Do people in Poland study all history, when Poland was conquering Belarus through centuries? I get a feeling that Polish think they were a peaceful nation, always on the defense. Should Belarus be afraid of Polish invasion soon, if Poles are afraid of Russian?

[@riki5733]

Seems that if you talk louder people should think you are smart and that you are telling the truth. Seems like a new concept, i should try it.

[@remremsrisri4953]

It's a thing with new democracies. The same kind of people in autocracies just adjusting to new norms. It will take a while before they get to be similar to older democracies like France or England or the US.

[@AbzAden]

I don’t like how other guys are screaming their point as if it would make em right kinda ruined the debate

[@bobzaba4842]

"Hypothetical possibility" that Ukraine would join Nato is a defacto REALITY when Nato trains and arms Ukraine (since 2014)...

[@Summerstorm2022]

The sole reason they were able to put up the fight was their training and preparation.

[@bobzaba4842]

@@Summerstorm2022 The sole reason there was/is a fight was because the gullible Ukrainians allowed themselves to be set-up and used as cannon-meat by USA/Nato... But given the Nazi character of the current Ukraine regime, it is hard to feel sorry for them...

[@phenomenal325]

Lol Ukraine also put it in their constitution that they will join NATO after the illegal coup in 2014. The realists on the left are correct Russia had cops for concern and we didn't listen to them and kept ignoring them. This is dangerous and stupid, and if we lose in Ukraine which is pretty much a 99% certainty that that will happen, the geopolitical and economic ramifications for the West and the United States will be disastrous.

[@phenomenal325]

@@Summerstorm2022 whoosh the salient point just kind of flew right over your head didn't it?

[@jasiekkoroluk]

And the only reason for that was Russia's invasion of Crimea in 2014. What is your point?

[@ChannelMath]

here's an interesting exercise: pretend this entire debate is about the USA (since everything fits perfectly)

[@hatrick3117]

oh yes, that"Iraq peoples republic" that we all forgot of

[@dreed7312]

Pretend it's about your mother

[@elliottcovert3796]

The US is an extremely aggressive power within our sphere of influence. Ask Latin America about that.

[@teddybearmonster]

Then you need to also pretend this debate is happening inside Russia. Can you do that?

[@tomasznowak2016]

Russia and the USA are completely similar. The same values, freedoms and living standard. Who would notice the differences ?

[@brazenzebra]

What an excellent debate! It's always a good idea to hear powerful arguments from both sides of an issue. Thank you so much for recording this debate and presenting it on KZbin.

[@trumanhw]

Intellectually dishonest is excellent ?? McFaul is up there pretending there are no NAZIS !??? WTF ? Why did Zelensky say he had to "put any agreements to a vote" in order to approve them? He's talking about the NAZIS. Pretending there wasn't a COUP !?? Really ?? How exactly did Victoria Nuland magically pick who'd be the leader ..? And conspirators chat logs to satisfy US requirements to kill more people so US ceases acknowledging Yanukovych admin.

[@lilpain8883]

@@trumanhw Wow it's very hard for a US politician to work out who will likely take a position. I guess there was a coup in the UK considering we all knew who would be PM of the UK before she recently resigned, or that most people knew Rishi Sunak would take the position after her I guess that means there was underhandings going on right?

[@blogintonblakley2708]

McFaul admitted he'd lie when it suits him. Not sure why anyone should take him seriously after that.

[@ericmacrae6871]

When did he admitted he lied when it suits him?

[@warbler1984]

Ya know who is telling more lies than anyone...is the Russian state. Who could trust them...they must be defeated kn the battlefield

[@blogintonblakley2708]

@@warbler1984 Russia is winning, and there is nothing the West can do about it.

[@decemvre]

John Mearsheimer : "You will find no evident Putin is an imperialist" ... seriously is John Mearsheimer paid by the Kremlin? Putin said: "THESE ARE OUR LANDS", in his speech before the invasion. He means all the way to Odessa, Includiv the Republic of Moldova. This debate is just ridiculous.

[@yvonraoul2198]

Putin never said "These are our lands". Simple.

[@decemvre]

@@yvonraoul2198 Watch the speech the day before the invasion.

[@Arcadius8]

@@yvonraoul2198 Every word coming out of his mouth is a lie. Assessment of any human being based on what he says is a sign of naivity.

[@fabioasterix750]

You are laughable

[@yvonraoul2198]

@@Arcadius8 Politicians everywhere believe in their lies or should I say half-truth.Nothing is black and white. Assigning 'truth' and 'lies' is in itself a way of shutting down the other side. This human drama, like any other drama, is layered and complex. Why can the people of the Dunbas decide by referendum what they would like for themselves? The Minsk Accord never came up in the debate. It's unfortunate. A federative approach was accepted by all parties. The U.N. security council even approved it. Canadians are part of a federation. We don't always agree but history as thought us to compromise.It's complicated and messy but it is the only way to avoid madness. I don't like the Putin character. He is an ultra-nationalist. But all nationalists are motivated by fear and fear is a lethal emotion shared also by American and Europeans. Mearsheimer is a rationalist who understand the dynamic of fear and how to circumscribe it. Ultimately you and I want peace...The longer we wait to have the parties sit at the table the worst it is going to get...for everyone in this globalized world.

[@kuulig]

Rewelacyjna debata, gratulacje dla Pana Radosława Sikorskiego za wspaniałą wygraną i reprezentację Polskiej racji stanu.

[@sebastianduchowicz2902]

żartujesz?

[@mathew8978]

@@sebastianduchowicz2902 bardzo dobre mial argumenty w tej debacie Sikorski widac ze przekonal do swojej racji wiekszosc publicznosci wiec uwazam to za wielkie zwyciestwo i dobre reprezentowanie polskiej racji stanu

[@Larsemillarsen]

Great debate. It seems to me, the two parties are talking past each other - they simply seem to have completely different starting points: One side argues from how they believe the world IS and the other side argues from the point of how they want the world TO BE. One is more or less a political science point and the other one political point.

[@ubroc]

All sides agree that Russia's security interests are central but they don't agree on what their legitimate interests are. That's why they're talking past each other.

[@maryanchabursky9148]

Except that their belief about how the world IS doesn’t make any sense.

[@pistolpetetc]

@@maryanchabursky9148 It makes full sense.

[@maryanchabursky9148]

@@pistolpetetc no it doesn’t it pretends it is the 18th century’s with grand empires. This ignores the reality that smaller nations have a lot of say in the modern world.

[@pistolpetetc]

@@maryanchabursky9148 It does. In practice the world still follows the rules of Real Politique, the war in ukraine is a case in point.

[@janusztracz542]

Brawo Panie Radosławie, przejechał się Pan po nich jak po burej suce

[@emissary23]

Why even assume that Putin is saying truth and not lying. Look what he does not what he said...

[@RoboStuk]

Delusional, naive, not understanding this part of the world, measuring Putin with western measures. All of the above.

[@jibbyjabs]

The American professors live in the past, in the present and future they just have no answers or plan so they delude themselves. McFaul is annoying but he at least seems authentic next to the opposite and radek is nothing but pure sense and truth. Great advocates for democracy on the part of radek and mcfaul. Real shame mersheimer didn't acknowledge salient points made

[@Imbalanxd]

In that case why believe literally any participants in this crisis? Absolutely none of them are trustworthy, the American's least of all.

[@jibbyjabs]

@@Imbalanxd oh Jesus give me a break you're on KZbin exercising free speech because of America. Get a grip..I'm in a neutral country and these kind of statements are not even a weak strawman argument it is legitimate logical fallacy and circular paranoia puked put online without a degree of consideration. Learn the complex history. We constantly appeased russia..not one country in Europe will do this anymore, I think but for that the USA would want to, but not even biden who was clearly desperate to avoid a war after the rather unceremoniously pull out of a certain territory last autumn, but there is no option left on the table to avoid invasions across Europe. You have to acknowledge ignorance here - we do know more.than the Eastern European countries about Russian intent - clearly. They said this would happen years ago - the USA and Western nations were not. This isn't a USA led proxy war it is something that no one wanted but now that putin kicked it off no one is willing to back down. And they shouldn't. Everyone is fed up of him terrorising, land grabbing and thinking he can redefine borders. He is an old autocratic blob with a failed nation and failed economy with a last gasp of air has made a fatal error most crucially for his own legacy

[@Imbalanxd]

@@jibbyjabs I'm exercising my freedom of speech because I have nothing to say that the United States would consider substantive. Julian Assanges current situation makes you immediately and unequivocally incorrect in your estimation of America's stance on free speech. Make another post excluding it's mention if you wish to be taken seriously.

[@misiekkania]

Rewelacyjna debata!!! Panie Radku nie zgadzam się z Panem w wielu kwestiach. Ale w tym temacie popieram każdą Pana tezę i każdy argument. Obyśmy znaleźli więcej tematów w którym jesteśmy zgodni, a w pozostałych prowadzili właśnie takie debaty!

[@Teaspun]

McFaul is a lightweight and a hothead. All emotion and little logic, could barely stop himself from interrupting. And they sent *this* guy to Russia?? Looking at the caliber of Western diplomats surrounding this issue it is little wonder we are where we are.

[@timothybierwirth7509]

11:40 ... ah, except for the evidence that has come directly from Putin's own mouth...

[@siod4]

Jako wyborca PiSu gratuluję Panie Radosławie rozsądnych i moim zdaniem trafnych uwag!

[@internetowywichrzyciel6971]

co jak co, ale w stosunku do Rosji od 300 lat zdecydowana większość polaków ma to samo zdanie.

[@arturganczarski500]

@@internetowywichrzyciel6971 I słusznie.

[@vka3]

Besides NATO neutrality, Ukraine has been subjugating its Russian speaking population in Crimea and Donbas regions who like to be part of Russia. The speakers seem to ignore the second point. Verbal commitments do not mean much. In 1990, US made verbal commitments to Russia not to expand NATO an inch eastwards but did it anyway several times.

[@greenrosenz]

Except it was in writing ...one excuse I heard was a slap in the face to Yesltsin..." no, that agreement was with the USSR which doesn't exist anymore, you are Russia- it wasn't with you!" What a slap in the face was that.

[@davidh3985]

India should just give Kashmir to Pakistan, it's for the best. I hear the Putin propaganda machine has worked wonders in India.

[@thurakyawnaing4208]

I would say they wisely avoided that topic - subjugating these russian speakers in Ukraine - both of the professors are very wise. Personally, I thinks it's irrevelent here.

[@vka3]

@@davidh3985 In fact, Half of Kashmir is with Pakistan. Both are asking for whole of it which is never going to happen. So, they might just keep half and half. Same goes with LAC with China and settle it and move on. Kosovo was part of Serbia and NATO bombed Serbia and declared Kosovo independent which is not recognized by Russia to this day. Crimea/Donbas are Russian speaking majority who want to be with Russia. Why force them to be in Ukraine and make Russian language illegal despite Minsk agreements.

[@davidh3985]

@@vka3 Recognizing Kosovo was indeed not the best solution, but there was genocide being commited there and something had to be done. What you fail to understand is that there was no Donbass issue before 2014, Putin sent Igor Girkin there to instigate (Yes the guy responsible for shooting down 2014) There were no oppression of Russian speakers, in fact many of the best UKR volonteer units from 2014 are russian speaking themselves. Now Putin is driving more russian speakers to want to be part of Ukraine with every Grad rocket he fires at them. Russia should just leave the territory of Ukraine and let them decide for themselves which form of rule they want.

[@soniamaddalena5124]

We 're lying all the time !!!!!!!!!

[@fasilketema2661]

thank you so much for give us information

[@tadeuszmurgrabia4578]

W czasie podpisywanie ugody perejasławskiej Moskwiczanie i Ukraińcy potrzebowali tłumacza. To były już inne języki.

[@alh6255]

Język ukraiński pozostał językiem rusińskim, opartym m in. na dialekcie połtawskim (okolice dzisiejszych rejonów "kozackich"), ale nie tylko, bo w ogromnej mierze także na dialektach zachodnich Rusinów (jak choćby dialekty Polesia czy karpackie) i na językach zachodniosłowiańskich (głównie na polskim, ale i słowackim). Kontakt z zachodniosłowiańskimi językami (szczególnie z językiem plemion lechickich, inaczej Lędzian) od niepamiętnych czasów wpływał na ukraińskie słownictwo i gramatykę. Rosyjski z kolei także częściowo wywodzi sie z dialektów połtawskich, ale to bardzo dawne czasy. Potem ogromny wpływ wywarły na niego języki ugrofińskie i tatarskie (ugrofińskie zwłaszcza na mowę chłopów, a tatarskie - szlachty). Co więcej, Księstwo Moskiewskie przyjęło prawosławie nie z Kijowa, ale "z rąk" Bułgarii i Serbii, a wraz z tym, ogromną liczbę słownictwa południowosłowiańskiego. W cerkwi rosyjskiej używa się właśnie dlatego języka południowych Słowian (Cyryla i Metodego), a w cerkwi białoruskiej i ukraińskiej - staro-cerkiewno-słowiańskiego. W efekcie w rosyjskim już w XIV w. pozostało stosunkowo niewiele słów rusińskich, w porównaniu z ukraińskim czy białoruskim (albo wręcz językami dawnej Rusi Kijowskiej, do których zaliczał sie także język Nowogrodu Wielkiego). Bajania Putina o tym, że Ukraińcy i Rosjanie to jeden naród (bo 1000 lat temu były razem w luźnym związku wielu księstw, zwanym Rusią Kijowską) to wierutna bzdura :)

[@tadeuszmurgrabia4578]

@@alh6255 Dziękuję za świetne wyjaśnienie.

[@user-xt8ty6hr3p]

@@alh6255 ваши фантастические истории очень занимательны. Жюль Верн не мог бы с вами соперничать 😂 Особенно про разные народы между русскими и украинцами.

[@arjan2777]

@@user-xt8ty6hr3pAh no Muscovites are just Asian hordes who have no legitimate interests in the countries west of them. Go back behind the Urals and bother us no more. Really if you think that being part of the same multi ethnic principality a millennium ago has any bearing on ethnicity now you have no understanding of history at all

[@MrAniseable]

Piękna debata pokazująca oba obozy

[@beesplaining1882]

If only security interests were as simple as just "being invaded". Imagine how few wars America would have started if that were the case.

[@jackoh5134]

That is a great point. Unfortunately John and Steve didn't point out this conceptual shift.

[@beesplaining1882]

@@jackoh5134 its a typical straw man argument. The con side used a few of them in this debate.

[@ronparks8875]

@@jackoh5134 It's only my opinion but I lean towards Walt and Mearsheimer. The other side did seem like they put up a good argument though. But in the end to back a heavily armed nuclear power into a corner is really a very risky thing to do. Appeasing Hitler and being wrong is completely different from being wrong about Putin. There may be no second chance.

[@dipthongthathongthongthong9691]

@@ronparks8875 Quite shocking how so many seem willing to March forward with this assortment of neocons from various countries; with the US leading the way. Given the debacles in the Middle East over the last three decades, you’d think people would be more skeptical of their motives.

[@samuelskinner7704]

@@ronparks8875 The bigger issue with the appeasement argument is war changed. Getting Austria and Czechoslovakia increased Germany's ability to wage war. Gaining Ukraine or all the post Soviet Republics isn't going to change the situation for Russia in a full scale war with the US. Conventional forces engage, losing side launches, nuclear exchange occurs. It only comes up because thinking is not as valuable as labeling things double plus ungood.

[@ruslandukhnovskiy5694]

thank you mister Radoslaw. You said everything right. being a Ukrainian, who as well was in Euromaidan, the way you described all the story and your arguments are precisely correct. and I'm thankful. we would be more safe in trenches with the Poles rather than with those from the west Europe either ❤️🇵🇱🇺🇦

[@byttlejuice145]

Good debate. I didn’t want to listen to some point of views, but I am glad I got through it. I feel even perhaps. I was hoping some would mention the Donbas conflict in more detail with relation to this war.

[@TorianTammas]

Yes it started with an illegal Russian invasion snd occupation of Ukrainian territory and the forming of Putin puppet regimes in the occupied territories.

[@50kjy]

Yes....the Donbas conflict that began in 2014....and the killing of many Russian speaking Ukranians.

[@notastone4832]

@Jon Little no.. it was igor strelkov lol.. hes not too popular in the kremlin because of it.. spetznas.. chechen war veteran.. took it into his own hands with some other veterans and started taking the territory that became the DPR and LPR.. fun fact: some of the riot police from the maidan helped with that process..

[@50kjy]

@Jon Little Most things are a matter of perspective. Some would argue that Putin provoked the conflict in 2014, perhaps Putin did. Others would argue differently that it began with the Maidan uprising when Ukrainian govt decided not to sign an agreement with EU and chose to sign with Russia. All I can do as an independent thinker...is listen to all the perspectives, which of course I expect contains propangada and hyperbole. No one is innocent...and there is no good guy in this story...that I believe.

[@sylwiatime]

@@50kjy How are they two different perspectives? It began with Putin telling Ukrainian president not to sign an agreement with EU and sign one with Russia instead, an exclusive one at that. Since the president was in Putin's pocket he agreed. That led to Maidan because the guy had just sold out millions of young Ukrainians' lives to Putin, and that led to the president running away to Russia. Seeing that he'd just lost his leverage, Putin invaded Crimea and Donbas and cut gas supplies to Ukraine. And how no one is innocent? Are the Ukrainians who wanted to have a chance at a decent life guilty?

[@mawmiernyalewierny1770]

Definition of what Russian security interest are. I give you what is the doctrine of Russian security: "All our neighbors must be afraid of us, if they are not afraid, they do not respect us"

[@bogdanobradovic7621]

What makes you think that Russia should even accept some sort of Minks 3 agreement after Ukraine violated Minsk 1 and Minsk 2 by firing on civilians. All Ukraine had to do was not fire on civilians, instead they really amped up shelling of residential areas pre 24th Feb.

[@pioptoja]

@@bogdanobradovic7621 watching ria novosti with some caviar and champanskoie to feel like panslav?

[@bogdanobradovic7621]

No, I lived through 3 months of Nato aggression and saw what the empire of lies spins. In essence, I feel sorry for the Ukrainian people, they have been led down the wrong path with false promises, on purpose to provoke Russia. Many reasons. None of this is helping the Ukrainians. They are dying in droves and pushed forwards with promises and false hope and false victories. Stop this propaganda and let the Ukrainians live in peace.

[@Imbalanxd]

Its a terrible and tragic geopolitical policy to have, its true. But since America's doctrine is that all of the world must be afraid... I know which side I choose.

[@cis19590302]

@@pioptoja jealous of caviar and champagne?:))) It not so tasty, believe me. Try shashlik with red wine outdoors by the water, say in mid-July. Much better

[@CrossbowManD]

The grey haired guy arguing the con side is incredibly disingenuous. You need better moderation. The guy got away with not answering questions that were asked of him, like "what are Russia's security interests?", which the moderator asked of him.

[@AZ-zo6yr]

He is a political. Escape the exactly answers - it is his main skill.

[@CrossbowManD]

@@AZ-zo6yr more like the lack of skill of everyone around him. He should never be allowed to get away with this behavior, especially in this setting. The moderator and his interlocutors should be bringing up the fact he isn't answering questions asked of him.

[@irahoppe3632]

Great to find both sides being given. Very unusual these days.

[@WookCarajo]

Chapeau bas Panie Radku!

[@bogdanbaudis4099]

Having been hammering on the Mearsheimer for so long I have to admit that at least once he might have been correct. That was when he said that Ukraine should not have given up its nuclear arsenal. However this only looks good today, at the time the events were taking place it was not that clear what exactly Ukraine would become ... it might have ended like Belarus but with NUKES ...

[@northstar1060]

nukes in the hands of the nazis --no thanks

[@happyhappynuts]

1000% agree

[@tiagomagalhaes7032]

Doubt it would have gone that way, two reasons: 1 - if Ukraine hadn't given their nuclear weapons then US wouldn't have supported them, so no joining NATO, which would mean less ties to Europe, because Poland and Baltic nations would never feel safe, and there would have probably been an escalation of NATO presence in East Europe. 2 - if they hadn't then I don't know if th Friendship treaty with Russia would ever came forward...please remember, Ukraine and Russia were very close to conflict because of Crimea, as the Russians felt it was their territory and should be given back (Crimean population agreed btw). Yeltsin ended up accepting Crimea under Ukraine sovereignity after Ukraine accepted that Russia would keep 80% of the Black Sea fleet + 20 year land lease of Sevastapol, but that agreement was dependant on Ukraine also giving it's nukes. So I don't know what would have happened then... As for Mearsheimer, he's more times right than wrong, the problem is that his views do not correlate with what we wish the world to be. We want the world to be peaceful and harmony and no stupid wars or conflict....but reality is that there are many interests in conflict, both political and economic. US is heavily dependant on selling weapons, it's a multi-billion per year industry for them, and they need it to keep building and researching more weapons...BUT if everyone in the world was nice and no conflict, then those weapons would be useless, which would lead to the destruction of US military industry which is supposed to employ around 3-4 million people...so that's not going to happen, US needs wars all over the world. This is what realism view is about, accepting the reality over what we wish.

[@bogdanbaudis4099]

@@tiagomagalhaes7032 Well, more or less correct except: "(Crimean population agreed btw" - the problem is that the "Crimean population" included Russian military personnel of the Black Fleet with their families (which were also "extended" for the purpose of the polls) while at the same time EXCLUDING people who were REMOVED from Crimea by Soviet Union (Tatars and others) "he's more times right than wrong, the problem is that his views do not correlate with what we wish the world to be." This is a little of reverse logic: He claims "realism" and people disagree only because realism is always less desired than dreams. This is not necessarily true, some people dream of things which would horrify most other people. Moreover his theory does NOT predict or explain FACTS! He says that "great powers" act "rationally" but then Nazi Germany elects to fill railroad cars with Jews to send them to death camps while at the same time there is a shortage of ammunition on the Eastern Front! "Rational" my ass ...

[@tiagomagalhaes7032]

@@bogdanbaudis4099 I was actually talking about Crimea in 1994, when Yuriy Meshkov won elections with 74% under a platform of wanting independance to rejoin Russia...and then Ukranians sent special forces to capture him, and since then Crimeans have always supported politicians that want to rejoin Russia. As for the Tatars, it would be too long of a conversation, as indigineous people being forced out of their lands by stronger forces is kinda an usual thing that happen, even in western countries it still happens today. He never said that Great Powers act rationally, he says that they act in according to what they perceive are their security interests and that it does not matter if it is rationally or not, they simply act...and if proven wrong, they will simply double down. His theory does explain much of what happens, because we can look at several decisions made by Great Powers over the years, that led to disastreous results, because they believed it was the only way forward for their own survival...now obviously his views are not 100% correct, but no one is. I'll maintain my statement, he's more times right than wrong. Nazi Germans were not acting rationally as they killed everyone they saw sub-human, but it was part of their security interests...by creating a sub-human enemy, that "endangers our way of life", the Nazis unified a country, because they had to cleanse the world of that threat. Which is a very similar way of view that many US and European citiziens have been sharing towards Muslim nations...we're all very happy to take Ukranians in Europe, but let's not forget about the millions of North Africa and Middle East refugees that are stuck in refugee camps, that were put there as direct action of NATO military interventions in the region... So let's not pretend we are that much better than Nazis, we might not have concentration camps, but we are willing to accept millions living in sub-human conditions because of actions we took, people who their best choice of surviving is to attempt crossing the Mediterranean in a situation where it's estimated that 30% die...those are the odds they rather try, and we do not care. This is what realism is about...it's looking at the world and see the consequences of our actions, instead of just dreaming that we are some sort of perfect society that does no wrong.

[@sergiuszzajac2109]

Szczerze, może debata i jest dla Amerykanów dobra, ale dla ludzi z Europy Środkowo-Wschodniej nie ma najmniejszego sensu. po 11:45 nie ma sensu tego słuchać. Skoro człowiek uważa, że Putin nie chce podbić Ukrainy, to trudno. XD Tak sobie chciał czołgami pojeździć wokół Kijowa oraz Zełeńskiego zabić dla zabawy. XDDD

[@murmur4498]

tak samo pomyślałem :D

[@piotrkost6850]

Not long ago on "stand up for Ukraine" conference in Warsaw a young Ukrainian refugee activist said that they knew that the war was coming because the systems put the economy and money above the human. So maybe that's this "elephant in the room" and not much of an issue between democracy and autocracy in the 1st place. (don't they have the same "elephant" on both sides)

[@sashagrey2984]

I'd like to know a place currently existing where money is not put above the human.

[@warbler1984]

What are you talking about? One fatuous bint saying something doesn't make ut true. They didn't know the way was coming. They were shockingly badly prepared, Kyivs bomb shelters were not stocked and were locked up. Zelenskiy was poorly prepped

[@Athenaikos]

Mearsheimer's reasoning and logical framing are a cut above. The winner is the Walt-Mearsheimer team.

[@greatgalaxy2118]

Professor John Mearsheimer weighs heavy in this Debate.

[@midi5581]

Heavy in a cynical belief that he should dictate UA what to do. Or in delusion, that RU is not imperialistic and revisionist country

[@firstone3289]

as a naive foold who was wrong

[@larissachase4726]

He really rocks, the rest are pebbles, useless and ignorant.

[@greatgalaxy2118]

@Jon Little You need to hear Mearsheimer with open mind. I am neutral non European person. I hear both of pannels statement/ argument and rebuttal with equilibrium pov.

[@greatgalaxy2118]

@Jon Little youve got some valid point, I like the idea towards the peace and not to escalate violence on european soil. My concern is that Russia may nuke Europe l, as once Nagashaki/Holiroshima were. Thank you friend for sharing your depth knowledge regarding the geopolitic conflict.

[@slobodanpesic2302]

Ukraine is a democracy?! “Ukraine suspends 11 political parties”! Not one, ELEVEN! :o)

[@slobodanpesic2302]

Minsk agreement: /…/ Article 4: elections in Donbas. The day after the pullback of heavy weaponry from the contact line, a dialogue on local elections will start in accordance with Ukrainian law and the temporary law on special status adopted in September 2014. No later than 30 days after the signing of the Minsk-2 agreement (i.e. by 14 March), Ukraine’s parliament will adopt a resolution defining the area in which the temporary law on special status will apply (to be based on the delineation line in the memorandum of 19 September 2014). … Article 11: constitutional reform. A new Ukrainian constitution will enter into force by the end of 2015. Its ‘key element’ will be ‘decentralization’, which will take account of the ‘peculiarities’ of occupied Donbas, as agreed with the DNR/LNR representatives. Ukraine will also adopt ‘permanent legislation’ on special status before the end of 2015. This law will include: an amnesty; ‘the right of linguistic self-determination’; the involvement of the local authorities in the appointment of prosecutors and courts; agreements between Ukraine’s central authorities and the local authorities covering ‘economic, social and cultural development’; state support for the socio-economic development of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts; assistance from the central authorities to support ‘transnational cooperation’ between the occupied regions and regions of the Russian Federation; rights for local parliaments to create ‘people’s militia units’; and no early termination of the powers of local parliaments and elected officials.

[@slobodanpesic2302]

Bear in mind that no NATO member state asked its people in the referendum about joining NATO!?

[@beasnoil3139]

Yes, one of them were officially pro-russian. And if you haven't noticed, they're currently at WAR with Russia. And only 1 of these parties was in the parliament. Eastern European countries ban communist parties, don't you think that's undemocratic? We should just kick them out of NATO.

[@davidh3985]

Pryvet Belgrade. Did you miss that there is a marshal law in Ukraine? They are fighting for their existence, they do not need 5th column parties in the country during war.

[@nintsip]

So your logic is that the Nazi parties must have existed during World War II? In the name of democracy? Democracy ends when you pose a serious threat to humanity. When you invade. When you kill. When you rape children. And if someone supports that YES they have to be suspended!

[@kleinweichkleinweich]

my national security interest is that Russia is not at Poland's eastern border

[@cookml]

If you look at the map, if not Russia it would be China or North Korea. Think again. :) another solution to this problem is to have German-Russian border.

[@jibbyjabs]

Brilliant debate, what a treat to stumble upon whilst looking for Mearsheimers more recent views on the invasion

[@jibbyjabs]

And for what it's Worth, Radislaw is the winner of the debate hands down, just by stating the obvious..we just.dont have the option to appease anymore

[@BM-ur4je]

@@jibbyjabs ....and add Michael McFaul's position as well

[@magdaty1815]

pgh, what is brilliant about that? Wasn't Ukraine created by Russia? It was. Fact. Is it something unfamiliar (for example to USA) to expand own territory no matter what the locals of that territory say? Give me a break. Święte oburzenie. Ciągle nie takie dyskusje jakie można by prowadzić. Już mnie to na początku znudziło, bo nie jest to nic, czego byle klituś-bajduś w sekcjach komentarzy nie powtarza jak katarynka. Więc jak jest dalej o czymś mądrym to niech ktoś mi poda minutę, kiedy pada pytanie o taką sytuację - Część obywateli Ukrainy nie chciała już należeć do Ukrainy dlaczego to oni są źli vs Ukraina dobra, a gdy UPA nie chciało należeć do Polski to Polska była ta zła? W wielu krajach ludność jest mieszana. Gdyby tak nagle w USA kazali ludziom wybierać, zakazali amerykańskim Włochom mówić po włosku i zmusili do działania przeciw wszystkiemu co włoskie, a jakby ktoś nie chciał wybierać, nadal szanował swoje włoskie korzenie to byłby traktowany jak przestępca a wręcz gorzej jak przestępca? Ktoś coś? Jakieś debaty o tym? Bo już były takie sytuacje że tak właśnie kazano ludziom wybierać, opowiadać się za jedną ze stron nawet jak człowiek był po prostu bezbronnym mieszkańcem wsi, nie mającym nic wspólnego z polityką chcącym tylko pracować i w miarę po ludzku żyć - tak było gdy nazistowskie Niemcy kazały ludziom wybierać, gdy UPA kazało ludziom wybierać. To już było i teraz się powtarza.

[@jibbyjabs]

@@magdaty1815 by your logic rome and Greece owns all of your nation 😆 russia is going to learn the hard way why they shouldn't stand by a man who thinks he can redefine borders by massacring people. And China won't stand by, they are way too reliant on US and European trade.

[@greri88]

@@magdaty1815 No, Ukraine was not created by Russia. Fact.

[@forestpump]

So the result of the debate is people prefer all out war against Russia until they destroy Ukraine or themselves over peace talks, what sort of people would choose this path!

[@tetyanahnatyk7756]

Ukrainians are choosing to fight for freedom, democracy and liberty. What are you going to do about it? Americans are not dying in Ukraine and we are not asking them. They did die in Afganistan. Ukraine is not Afganistan, we will not surrender, our leader did not flee next day. Ukraine does not want to be part of Putin's regime.

[@midi5581]

Ukrainians fight for themselves when Russia ignored diplomatic efforts, you can give them weapons to defend or watch them die or get enslaved (like East block after WW2). What sort of people want them to surrender against their will?

[@forestpump]

@@midi5581 - Enslaved? Hardly, they're just trying to stop the slaughter in Donbas

[@forestpump]

@@tetyanahnatyk7756 - Why the draft then?

[@mahssahazfi5956]

It’s a tactic to vote contrary to your belief in the first round and then vote for what you actually believe in the final round so that your side wins. I don’t think many people get into a debate on such grave implications without preconceived opinions. I certainly wouldn’t go to a debate to be persuaded I’ll go to see my side win! I don’t know maybe I’m unlike 88% of the people 😁

[@V4zz33]

How do you have debate with pathological liars and agenda driven people?

[@patrykmikosz8810]

Świetna debata

[@iCharli92]

Świetna robota Panie Radosławie! Dyskusja z Pana strony na wysokim poziomie przypominając niewygodne fakty historyczne jak traktat Budapesztański plus parę dowcipów, które podobały się widowni. Niezależnie od Polskiej polityki wewnętrznej jest Pan 'towarem eksportowym' naszej dyplomacji i na zachodzie widać liczą się z Pana głosem. Dobrze by było aby zrozumieli to Pana przeciwnicy, ale to myślenie życzeniowe. Życzę powodzenia

[@bobzaba4842]

Szkoda ze nie przypomnial traktatow Minskich ktore Ukraina od samego poczatku lamala...

[@iCharli92]

@@bobzaba4842 Nawet po krótkim wyszukiwaniu tematyki źródłowej ze strony dzienników Niemieckich (nastawionych neutralnie bądź przyjaźnie dla rosjan) można wyczytać, że obie strony te porozumienia łamały, szczególnie po ofensywie na miasto Debaltseve separatystów Donbaskich. Jest jeszcze jedna data warta wspomnienia 28.IV.2022 czyli założenie Pana/Pani konta. Śmierdzi z kilometra ruskim lub rządowym trollem.

[@RoboStuk]

@@bobzaba4842 Bo traktaty mińskie były nierealne. Realna była inwazja Putina. A ty pisząc szkoda że nie wspomniał jakąś strasznie wredną gierkę prowadzisz, jakbyś był jakimś ruzzkim trollem.

[@bobzaba4842]

@@RoboStuk Lamanie traktatow podpisanych przez Ukraine jest ok bo byly nierealne ? Przesladowanie etnicznych ruskich na Ukrainie bylo ok ? A moze szkoda ze ukrobanderowcy nie zaserwowali im takiego takiego piekla jak to zrobili z Polakami kilkadziesiat lat temu... Wole byc ruskim trollem niz zdeprawowana, moralnie zgnila usraelska zaba ugotowana na koszernej propagandzie medialnej...

[@jtothed8575]

@@RoboStuk then both sides should not have agreed to sign them, what was the point of signing the Minsk treaties?

[@sgill4833]

I'm surprised US involvement in the maidan revolution/coup was never brought up. Nor Lindsey Grahams speech to Ukrainian soldiers in 2016.

[@KrissowskiM]

That is because any sane and well informed person is aware there has been no involvement of US into Maidan...

[@johnbea5684]

The leaked phone call of Nuland says otherwise.

[@cbskwkdnslwhanznamdm2849]

@@johnbea5684 wow a diplomat has a preference on a political outcome. I guess everything that happened in Ukraine from 2010-14 is irrelevant because of that call. Either that or you brats are in this for virtue signaling therapy.

[@suna173.6jm]

I was a bit on the fence about liberal hegemony and realism but Mcfaul's fascinating viewpoints just turned me more into a realist than I ever was. Thank god for Mearsheimer and Walt. Loved watching this debate and I'm gonna think about this for a long time!

[@bbmaverick]

Mearsheimer: "Putin is not an Imperialist". Didn't realize this was a comedy show.

[@victorgrandpre5869]

he's right though

[@rageburst]

On the topic of neutrality, google us ukraine charter on strategic partnership on Nov 2021. Look at the defense clause that basically respects Ukraine's right to join NATO. In the end, Ukraine became a de facto ally of NATO. They were also getting tons of weapons and there were even French soldiers there. Therefore the issue of neutrality is about substance, not symbolism. Being truly neutral means no weapon infrastructure, no military exercises, and no clandestine expansion of NATO. Forces were also amassing against Donbas. That is a dangerous move too.

[@rodtukker1904]

They just don't want to admit what the world seen in the last 3 months. Every one saw where the first hyper-sonic missile flew to, it was told by CNN as a NATO training base. But these people ask everyone to believe Ukraine has nothing to do with NATO.

[@JL-vk1rs]

this was a great debate, thanks to all of you for putting it together. I wish this was the norm of political discussion

[@justgivemethetruth]

Except that most of the con side was based on attacking Mearsheimer, while the Pro side presented cold hard facts.

[@slavimo]

@@justgivemethetruth If you call Putin's words facts, you urgently need to do a brain MRI. That's a bad symptom indeed. Mearsheimer is a Russian tool for years.

[@firstone3289]

@@justgivemethetruth Mearsheimer presented only his fantasies.

[@justgivemethetruth]

@@firstone3289 Name one?

[@Andre-zd8ke]

@@justgivemethetruth The skimming over Ukraine’s right to choose its own future made his whole attribute a load of one-sided BS. The aggressor is Russia, not the Ukrainian or even NATO. The ‘interests’ of Russia are simply to establish a hegemony over more countries, more areas, and now its target is Ukraine. It’s a non-defensible interest and if successful won’t stop with Ukraine. Oh, and to use the nuclear threat as an argument to give into Russia’s demands is pathetic. If successful Russia will use that time and time again.

[@PioroWieczne]

Radek jestes WIELKI

[@catharinepenrith5285]

"provide more weapons to ukraine to end war" The debate should have ended right there. How does ukraine pay for all these weapons ? with hryvnia ? no its same old historical trick being played out to gain RESOURCES AND INFLUENCE across the globe

[@youdontneedtoknowwhoiam9612]

@Peter Facka The soviet debt was paid for. What are you talking about?

[@youdontneedtoknowwhoiam9612]

@Peter Facka While repayment of the interest-free loans was required after the end of the war under the act, in practice the U.S. did not expect to be repaid by the USSR after the war. The U.S. received $2M in reverse Lend-Lease from the USSR. This was mostly in the form of landing, servicing, and refueling of transport aircraft; some industrial machinery and rare minerals were sent to the U.S. The U.S. asked for $1.3B at the cessation of hostilities to settle the debt, but was only offered $170M by the USSR. The dispute remained unresolved until 1972, when the U.S. accepted an offer from the USSR to repay $722M linked to grain shipments from the U.S., with the remainder being written off. During the war the USSR provided an unknown number of shipments of rare minerals to the US Treasury as a form of cashless repayment of Lend-Lease. This was agreed upon before the signing of the first protocol on 1 October 1941 and extension of credit. Some of these shipments were intercepted by the Germans. In May 1942, the HMS Edinburgh was sunk while carrying 4.5 tonnes of Soviet gold intended for the U.S. Treasury. This gold was salvaged in 1981 and 1986.[citation needed] In June 1942, the SS Port Nicholson was sunk en route from Halifax, Canada to New York, allegedly with Soviet platinum, gold, and industrial diamonds aboard.[67] However, none of this cargo has been salvaged, and no documentation of it has been produced.

[@rezonaut]

Yeah, more likely we should let it bleed, and wait for our turn, just like in 1939.

[@ChannelMath]

Rad: "Putin said he's interested in annexing Ukraine" John: "Actually in that speech he said the exact opposite" Rad: "you are so gullible! We can't seriously believe a word this man says!" (meanwhile, his side insists we can trust the intentions of the US gov, smh) That was a nice trap and it worked well on the goldfish in the room

[@loczyn]

Ukraine was in Putin's influence, when it stopped he suddenly took offense at his "bratny narod" and stated that he had to conquer it

[@dznuts123]

@@loczyn Can't tell if you are serious, but Putin's objectives before the war started were demilitarization, denazification, and supporting the Russian speakers/separatists in the Lugansk and Donetsk regions. Now his terms also include keeping the conquered territories, most likely to give them to the separatists or create some kind of buffer between NATO and Russia. I don't think you understand how big Ukraine is and how difficult it would be to conquer the entire country with the number of deployed troops. Russia only dispatched a small percentage of its military force in this operation. Also, Ukraine will have a lot of terrorists from the Azov battalion and Nazi extremists, not to mention Ukraine is poor and very corrupt. Russia would be committing financial and political suicide, if it really takes the entire Ukraine.

[@randomdude2832]

@@loczyn do you mea after the us led coup in 2014? and after the us ramped the training and arming of nassis in ukraine and set concerning bio labs? or did the coup regime constant shelling of donbass have something to do with it?

[@loczyn]

@@randomdude2832 Russia also have bio labs, so should we bomb Moscow?

[@loczyn]

@@dznuts123 I'm tired of the Russians imperialists talking... 1. Demilitarization? Of an independent country? Why do you want to demilitarize other country? And when you for example start to demilitarize China? They have much more army than Ukraine 2. Denazification? This is an overly general and vague term. They are all Nazis that the Russians will call them. Even jewish president... 3. "supporting the Russian separatists" - yeah we know that Russian tactic to destabilize all countries around. You forgot objective about regime change. It was a plan to "denazify rulers" I mean - denazify of jewish president ;) Of course this objective magically disappeared after VDV and Specnaz got their asses kicked at Hostomel and in Kiev. "Russia only dispatched a small percentage of its military force in this operation." - thats why Russia has pulled units even from Ossetia and Armenia to help in Ukraine? "Ukraine will have a lot of terrorists from the Azov battalion and Nazi extremists" - nice bullshit for dumb people in russia. Ofc they have some nazists like russians has too. Russia is a global breeding ground for neo-Nazi culture and there is so many scientific papers from around the world. "Russia would be committing financial and political suicide" it's already a suicide, hope that war will stop Russian imperialism for decades...

[@margaritawhynot2800]

All it would take to win this debate is to show a map of US/NATO military bases globally for people to see who’s security is truly being threatened.

[@larissachase4726]

It would have been a great idea! For dummies in the audience.

[@hatrick3117]

All it would take to win is to show that US after ww2 had more GDP than the rest of the world, was only country with nukes, and still done nothing to "great" Russia

[@dreed7312]

Says the dog seeking the shelter of our front porch. Here boy! Come get a treat! (Dog snarls)

[@cbskwkdnslwhanznamdm2849]

Dumb. People democratically enter nato because collective security is important when Russias and chinas exist. Vote with your feet.

[@peterred8297]

Nato has no bases outside Europe my dear.

[@miklosgergely2356]

Nothing will end, this is just the beginning!

[@handwerp]

Despite of the entertainment nature, this debate is still the more rational discour in the West. Pitty that the audience sided with the "Fight Until the Last Ukrainian" party.

[@fevgg]

It was Stalin's mistake to let nazi alive. We should dispose all Ukrainian Nazies

[@hatrick3117]

There is no alternative, after war crimes Ukrainians wount give anything, it might be logical from a side but to give Russia anything after starting the war with the dumbest arguments in history will mean only a couple years of ceasefire