Random Lengths, starting your own shop, when are you ready?

[@CrookedSkew]

I didn’t expect you to put a 1 hour video out so soon after our exchange and what a comprehensive video! Thank you kindly : ) I really enjoyed our conversation on the other video :D What stood out for me in your video: - In any process, garbage in garbage out. - While there is no substitute for skill, good equipment gives better opportunities and are a pleasure to use. - Bringing a person’s partner in to setting up a workshop, purchasing decisions etc is a very important but necessary call often ignored or omitted. - Secondhand equipment is not just a viable option for cost but quality. - Newer machinery being lighter than older causing issues with vibration and chatter and the weight of a base relative to the machine is a great call. - Ventilation and dust extraction are critical. - Don’t waste items and think creatively as to how get machinery and materials. - Each brand has their strong and weak tools. - HOA and what that can mean for a shop that might be noisy at times. Personal tool recommendations from an amateur (me) from what I have owned / used: - Hazet - Knipex - Wera - PB Swiss - Engineer (Japanese brand) - Veto Pro Pac - Irwin-Record high tensile bolt cutters (don't take this to be an Irwin brand recommendation, it is not) - Fein - Festool - Makita Other observations: - For me, the single most important item in a wood- or metalwork shop is a sturdy bench with a proper vice. - That Fein lamp on your bench is one of my most used tools while doing up our house - Tool history and badges of honour is very interesting. - I’ve successfully and reasonably fairly rationalised my tool buying in a number of ways. Rather than pay somebody to do various parts of our secondhand house up, I agreed with my partner that I’d pay myself in tools. If a job costs 3000 Euro, I may spend 2000 Euro on tools, do a decent job and have quality tools to reuse. Also, quality lasts and I plan on reusing these items in my wood- and metalwork shop in future. - I was already subscribed to a few of those channels. StumpyNubs was and is very high up my list. He consistently adds educational value ground in solid theory and experience while managing to be both fun and concise. Subscribed to all channels I was not already subscribed to. - Need to be aware even some of the better brands have lines of their tools made in Germany and lines made in China such as Fein. - There are more options for tracking machinery nowadays but handheld power tools are still tricky as they’re small and the tracking tech is not miniaturised enough yet / at a reasonably cost. - Hikoki, Metabo and Hitachi are all related to the same company. - The Mighty Mo story was great and I did wonder! - Pin your channel recommendations or put them in the description. Considerations for a workshop in garden / garage: - Size vs usage / machinery / future expansion over time - Access (getting machinery and materials in and projects out), place to do outdoors work requiring maximum ventilation - Electricity (single or three phase and solar), gas, internet, water, waste-water / plumbing - Lighting, heating, ventilation, shelving, security, insulation, material storage, humidity - Specification of build including concrete floor, sound proofing - Futureproofing such as insulating and using solar to drive underfloor heating - Gain experience by iteratively building out the shop with benches, trestles, etc and as one's skill increases, so too can these be redone / cabinets added etc Any thoughts on Flott or Maxion for news drills and other new machinery in terms of quality vs cost?

[@HolzMichel]

well the dialog we had going back and forth really set me to thinking and once the dam broke it just started all pouring out. it could have been quite a bit longer as i went on several long winded rants that i cut out. there was easy 3hrs of footage...lol. nice to see you got the gist of what i was trying to bring across in your bullet points. this day and age, most people are only out for snapshots and sound bites and don't take the time to really dive into the material presented in my work. but that's ok, there are people out there like you who really get it. and that's the kind of audience i intended to garner. paying yourself in tools is a good way of framing it. in twisted way i have been doing it all along but never really thought of it that way. it makes very good sense and is perhaps the best way of looking at the tool collection and a really good amortization plan. on floor heating there can be some issues that could crop up if the floor has heavy vehicular traffic such pallet jacks with heavy loads or forklifts. if the substrate isn't beefy enough, the floor will flex and pipes will break and leak. so if heavy objects are to be moved across a floor, then floor heating may not be the best option. vibration from heavy machines also plays hell on floor heating pipes. or trying to anchor them down... while it may seem that wouldn't really be an issue, there was a business incubator project in elk city ID where i used to live that had floor heating installed. had the machinery setup in their building been just light cabinet making making machinery like table saws, it would have been ok, but they ended up getting a guy in there that had a mobile bandsaw mill converted to a stationary application. within a few weeks of running the forklift on the production floor, it turned into gravel and totally destroyed the floor and heating system. they also failed to account for the thermal expansion and contraction of the concrete and subfloor which was a contributing factor. something else to consider with floor heating is how your body is going to react to it. your feet will sweat like crazy and you will rot out shoes in short order. by nature i have hot feet anyway and usually double sock as my feet sweat profusely without floor heating. i can't imagine how bad my shoes would stink at the end of a work day with floor heating solar collectors for heating water (glycol solution normally) and circulating thru a heating system can be great solution as they can also be reversed for cooling as well. a neighbor two doors down the street has quite the solar array on his garage roof. one part is PV and the other is for heating. even on a partly sunny day he still pulls 60 C into the system. his heating oil consumption is between 300 and 500L per year for his entire house. prior to installing the current system he has, he was burning roughly 3000L/yr this point is also for all of those folks reading along in the thread: starting your shop as a full time endeavor is harder than a marriage, anyone who has ever been married can relate. owning a business requires a lot more from a person than working a 9to5 for the man. it's been said that if you work as hard for yourself as you do for the man, you have a good foundation for success. that is only partially true in that you have to have iron self discipline to get up every day and get your bahookey in gear and get after it. it's often real tempting to switch off the snooze button, roll over and catch a few more winks, but then you end up jumping up out of bed mid morning as the largest share of more productive hours are gone for the day. there's a damn good reason business owners often have grey hair at a fairly young age....

[@HolzMichel]

on the issue of flott and maxion... i haven't heard of maxion so i really can't say anything one way or the other. Flott on the other hand is a name to be reckoned with. their older stuff from the 50's and 60's is built for the ages. their new stuff is insanely expensive and i have no idea how good it is. but if you have a line on an older one, then i would whole heartedly recommend getting after it, even if it's not in the best of shape. they are fairly easy to restore to full working order without too much trouble.

[@CrookedSkew]

​@@HolzMichel Apologies for the delay in responding. You've given me something really important to think about - the floor. Originally I was thinking of a basement but given the weight of the machinery and the costs involved, I have given up on that idea and have instead thought to expand the size of the ground floor by perhaps 2 meters out across 9 metres wide by knocking a somewhat unhealthy tree. I'd seriously consider putting in at least a foot of reinforced concrete as the floor and figure a different way to heat the workshop other than underground. I was also thinking about getting anti-fatigue mats for areas that are frequently stood on. Building a shop is a really interesting exercise given I'm trying to balance the cost, quality and security of the build with having some money left over to shelve it along with buying a small but quality bench drill (Flott and Maxion look good), a proper metalworkers table with vice (Heuer perhaps) and a proper woodworkers bench (Sjobergs perhaps). FireballTool now have a European shop for their vices and workbenches which look like a very interesting option. Two really important tips I was given after soliciting feedback from work was to be extremely careful mixing wood- and metalwork as one can set the other on fire and to ensure I have a good organisation strategy. Thankfully for me, this is just a hobby. My goal is to replicate key parts of my secondary school wood- and metalwork workshops so I can create and experiment. I agree that if one wants to turn this into a business, motivation is critical. That said, I would advise going the whole hog and creating a business plan getting somebody to poke holes it in while the founder defends it.

[@HolzMichel]

good call on the concrete if you are going with older, heavier machines. one thing i would do in addition to that is clad the floor with a wood parkette or something along those lines. i really like wood cobble floors and mr. chickadee shows how he installed one in his forge. in one of my steam train videos i went to winterthur in switzerland and toured the old sulzer works where they built locomotives, huge stationary steam engines, ships steam engines, ships diesel motors and a host of other heavy machinery. the one thing that was present throughout was the wood cobble in many of the different halls and workshops. in my apprenticeship we had that in the filing room as well. here's why wood cobble in such an environment is the cats meow: during the course of a workaday tooling and work pieces are going to hit floor. when it does and falls on concrete it's usually toast. even on anti-fatigue mats. for some dumb reason sharp cutting edges or tips and edges of measuring tools *ALWAYS* manage to find the concrete... now when it hits wood cobble it just plops onto the floor. but since wood cobble is end grain, you get the incredible strength of wood as it stands on end. it doesn't crush, it doesn't give, and when put down properly it doesn't split when hit. and cutting tools won't bust off the fragile ends when they fall onto it. now the species of wood used in a cobble floor isn't critical at all. it's end grain. and so from that aspect species selection isn't really anything critical, you can use any low grade species at hand, pine or spruce or whatever you have. you just need to use something like a cant to cut into blocks, but not boards. boards will split in that kind of application when they are stood on end. cants hold up surprisingly well to heavy traffic over time. now in your case, a wood cobble floor would be total overkill and a decent hardwood floor would be more than plenty good enough when properly laid down and sealed. one thing i saw happen a lot with the old outfit i used to work for, people would lay their tongue and groove hardwood floor and one, glue in it place on top of green concrete (concrete that still has a lot of moisture) and then two, not leave any expansion gaps along the walls. concrete will always transpire moisture and pass it into any wooden flooring. causing it to buckle or twist. there are many different methods of putting down a wooden floor over the top of concrete, and so it would be a good idea perhaps to go around to old industrial sites if possible to see how those floors are put together. kids nowadays knock the old timers for being thickheaded, but when i wander thru old industrial halls that had a lot of heavy traffic in them and see the floors are usually in fairly decent nick considering, the knowledge they had is invaluable. another thing about wooden floors even if laid down directly onto concrete is the reduction in fatigue and wear and tear on your feet, knees and shoes. if you plan on using any kind of heavy cart in the shop and have a wooden floor, this is when and where solid rubber tired wheels really shine. they have a tad more roll resistance, but once in motion aren't all that difficult to keep moving, but will not run away from you or roll off when you park it.

[@HolzMichel]

now onto work benches, the sjobergs are top notch. as are ulmia should you happen across one. if you look closely in the background of the recommendations video, you can see the mensuration workbench where i store my power tools. this is a workbench i built myself from materials scavenged in the demolition of the old sawdust bunker in the video "all in a days work" .. boss man was more than happy to spring for the 40mm multiplex tops for the two i made. they are loosely patterned on commercially available models from a german manufacturer and would cost around 4 to 5g a piece if purchased from them... moral of this little side note: you can build your own better and cheaper in some cases. just depends on how much you want to sink into it. it's also a good way to get into ironing out kinks in your manufacturing processes as you aren't under pressure from a client to get it done in a given time and can go back to correct any errors that creep in. on the subject of fireball tool: the items they sell here in the EU are made in taiwan and the outlet is in czechia. that's not a bad thing, it's just something i look at when i have my sights set on something. recently, i made a set of 4 of the large mutant welding squares that fireball offers in their line. then added a few refinements and a precision grind to them. the first thing that was welded up on them was dead nuts on...no wobble, no out of squareness.. they are also a tad thicker, larger and heavier than what fireball sells but the concept is the bomb. now this is going to sound a little off perhaps, but if you can measure accurately, and cut straight and run a half way decent bead welding, you have most of the skillset you need to do most of the work building your shop and infrastructure yourself. yes, there is a lot of trial and error, but that's a part of the learning process so that when you're ready enough to offer your services and products to the broader public, you have the experience you need and can keep building on that previous experience. the biggest challenge a guy will face is customer relations. a business owner will have to have a decent set of people skills to keep customers coming in the door. you can be the best machinist, cabinet maker or whatever, but if the people skills aren't there, the business won't do well. you don't have to lick the dinkleberries out of everyone's arse but you definitely have to have a healthy sense of diplomacy. and if a customer is in a real bind and needs something yesterday, don't hesitate to charge more for them jumping ahead in the line, just be gentle about it and up front. most of the time they will understand.

[@ermerins]

spot on advice! buy once, cry once. get the best tool/machine you can the first time.

[@HolzMichel]

if i had all the money i spent over the years on garbage tools, i wouldn't have to work for a few months

[@HolzMichel]

here are my recommendations of KZbin channels that would be of interest to the viewers of this video: for metal work - Mr Pete - www.youtube.com/@mrpete222 Jake Kilroy - www.youtube.com/@jtkilroy Keith Fenner - www.youtube.com/@KeithFenner Steve Summers - www.youtube.com/@SteveSummers Randy Richard - www.youtube.com/@RRINTHESHOP Chuck Bomerito - www.youtube.com/@outsidescrewball Tom Lipton - www.youtube.com/@oxtoolco wood working - the wood whisperer - www.youtube.com/@woodwhisperer Marius Hornberger - www.youtube.com/@MariusHornberger Matt Cremona - www.youtube.com/@mcremona Mary May - www.youtube.com/@marymay155 Susan Gardener - www.youtube.com/@SusanGardener Stumpy Nubs - www.youtube.com/@StumpyNubs Jonas Winkler - www.youtube.com/@JonasWinkler worthy mentions: Dale Derry - www.youtube.com/@jigandtoolguy Basementshopguy - www.youtube.com/@BasementShopGuy Doubleboost - www.youtube.com/@doubleboost makeitextreme - www.youtube.com/@MakeitExtreme Stefan Gotteswinter - www.youtube.com/@StefanGotteswinter

[@CrookedSkew]

Thanks. I was subscribed to most of them wood- and metalwork (all but one) and none of the worthy mentions so I've fixed that now!