Ranking all the classes in Pathfinder 2e

Here it is, adventurers, my ultimate ranking of ALL of the classes in Pathfinder 2nd Edition. This includes pre and post remaster notes about each class, as well as a heck of a lot of personal opinion. It was really tough since there are SO many decent options, and a lot of it really comes down to my personal preferences, so don't be too mad at me if your favorite is in the bottom half!
Also sorry about the camera occasionally being slightly out of focus. I still had autofocus on from a photoshoot a bit ago, and that occasionally caused some problems. I didn't think it was bad enough to reshoot... hopefully you agree with me.

[@RebelThenKing]

Hey everyone, yes, wizards have the most spells! If you look at only the tables it looks like they lag behind sorcerers, but "At 1st level, you can prepare up to two 1st-rank spells and five cantrips each morning from the spells in your spellbook (see below), as well as one extra curriculum cantrip and one extra curriculum spell of each rank you can cast from your arcane school." At each rank of spell, the wizard gets one more spell slot from their school, catching them up to the sorcerer. Wizards also have Drain Bonded Item, allowing them to recast a single spell. For example, a level 5 wizard will have: 4 rank 1 spell slots (3 from the table, 1 from their curriculum) 4 rank 2 spell slots (3 from the table, 1 from their curriculum) 3 rank 2 spell slots (2 from the table, 1 from their curriculum) Plus an extra casting from Drain Bonded Item. 5 cantrips from the table 1 cantrip from their curriculum. That's 12 total spells from spell slots and 6 cantrips. A sorcerer at the same level has: 4 rank 1 spell slots 4 rank 2 spell slots 3 rank 2 spell slots 5 cantrips That's 11 total spells and 5 cantrips. Y'all are sleeping on the wizard!

[@texbo1919]

Well ok, 1 more spell. But then the universalist can drain bonded item from every lvl per day, not just once. And the sorc with signature spells can heighten and pound out multiples of one spell if needed. You are assuming that the wizards choices in the morning are perfect, for what he will need. How often does he mem a spell and its never used, because he just didnt need that spell. Oh well.

[@jonathanbennison9220]

And... You mentioned it in your wizard breakdown, IIRC... But the one wizard has the ability to drain more times. Less helpful at lower levels than higher levels, I believe. But. Also, more spells than the chart suggests... 'at a glance'

[@jonathanbennison9220]

@@texbo1919 it's true, thought the Sorceror will more often encounter the other problem, Spells they need but just don't know, Situations, where they just don't have a spell solution. It happens to any spellcaster, but has always been an issue for the sorceress.

[@RebelThenKing]

@@jonathanbennison9220 Yup, the School of Unified Magical Theory wizards can use Drain Bonded Item once per level per day.

[@duncbot9000]

"I'm going to disagree with me" is really the best way to live life and continue to grow!

[@Offbeaten]

I do kind of agree that the oracle belongs at the bottom, but at the same time. They can be some of the best healers, so I'd not put it at a 1 for support.

[@RebelThenKing]

Totally fair. This part of the curse makes me sad "you can't be healed by magical effects originating from other creatures", but I suppose if you're the party's magical healer than it's not a big deal. Still though, it makes me worry about the dreaded problem of the party healer going down.

[@TheLandau1894]

​@RebelThenKing Medic archetype is good enough and cheap enough that almost every party should have someone pick it up pretty early even if you have a magic based healer already.

[@ObedientMammal]

Ive played a summoner twice now. It sounds clunky, but once you wrap your head around how the Act together action works, its smooth as butter. My turns ended up taking less time than anyone else in my team. I was able to also support my team with some spells that i could use (magic weapon for example), plus the Eidolon was very straight forward.

[@RebelThenKing]

Smart move using the summoner character as a team buff and the eidolon in combat like that. That's a good way to use those two characters.

[@9652769]

It is a complex class... But fun concept.

[@silenceditor]

I appreciated the honesty of your opinions and enjoyed your presentation style in this video! +1 pizzazz

[@Thatposer444]

I think you really undersold the ratings of Witch and Sorcerer compared to the other casters with set spell lists. It’s odd to talk about how powerful the arcane or occult spell lists are at something, then not give that same credit to either when they easily could have those same benefits.

[@toodleselnoodos6738]

Ya, im a bit confused by this. He said Post-Remaster and the Remaster Witch is the best for debuffing. Once it’s on, they can make it stick. The Witch is now the BEST vs. strong enemies/bosses. And I’m not just talking about Resentment. Just casting Blur on your familiar for Starless Shadow can perma-Frighten an enemy. Spinner of Threads can -1 status AC with no Saves. And even Wilding Steward punishes the boss for clipping them with AoEs.

[@RebelThenKing]

@@toodleselnoodos6738 I'm just salty because I dreamed up a vision of what a witch would be in the remaster, and it's not what it turned out to be. I never feel as strongly about familiar/companion based characters as I do solo characters, so it makes it tough for me to get super excited about the remastered witch, though it certainly is pretty good. I even created my own class based on what I hoped the witch was going to be. I haven't looked at it in a while though, so maybe that'll be a future video...

[@toodleselnoodos6738]

@@RebelThenKing It’s probably my fault for not considering your Opinion rating. Otherwise, it was still a fantastic tier list! For example, Cleric is super nice!

[@TheLocalDisasterTourGuide]

Overall, i would prefer for Fighters to have defined subclasses, but one advantage of the current fighter design is they have the least opportunity cost for using Archetypes in Pathfinder 2e - and Archetypes are one of the real strengths of the system! However, given the overwhelming popularity of the Free Archetype variant, this point is far, far less impactful. At the end of the day, i prefer the interesting options to be baked into the class, rather than designing a class with "more room for interesting options." But the critical hit machine is always going to have at least some appeal!

[@RebelThenKing]

I won't ever, ever argue against the efficacy of a fighter. I've kind of of realize in my ranking and responses that I'm judging aspects of the game by how much use and variety they get out of the same structural components, so when there's a class that's like "oh guess what, I'm actually an EXPERT and I don't have a subclass" it bothers me. But it doesn't bother me that monks have expert defenses and no subclasses...so...yeah...

[@hellfrozenphoenix13]

​@RebelThenKing for monks, it may be because all their level 1 feats almost feel akin to a subclass due to the stances or ki spell deals.

[@RebelThenKing]

I agree that the monk feats, especially stances, feel more like subclasses. The stances are something that you get into and typically stick with for an entire encounter, and they offer typically both attack and some sort of defense or speed or other action bonuses. This feels more like a core mechanic than the fighter feats that can be used in one round, not used in the next.@@hellfrozenphoenix13

[@jonathanbennison9220]

You put the Bard, at #1. 33:07 That's hilarious

[@jackdeth8769]

While I might not agree with your list, the video concept and the attempt (and multiple successes) to quantify each class by at least five static capabilities made this a pretty fun video, thank you!

[@papgabor8540]

I STRONGLY disagree with a lot of things in this video.

[@zacharymink6793]

Shout-out to your GM for sharing this on Reddit where I found it. When you eventually do this again I'd suggest a 10 point scale because of the number of classes. That might help with the tiebreakers and the big middle pack. I'm just now getting back into pathfinder with probably some society or beginner games so I can get a feel for mechanics again. Some friends got me into some 1-shots and very short games several years ago in 1e. Played in a couple meat grinder style 1-shots also around then at a con. Biggest thing for me that I learned from a GM of a meat grinder was to think of the classes as a base for whatever I'm trying to do with a character as a whole. That totally changed how I looked at it then and is shaping how I'm doing my light theory crafting now. There are a ton more options on how to accomplish a given goal with any class than it would seem at first glance. Best example I can think of is the value in what is basically a skirmisher character. Anyone that diverts enemies away from your other party members and gets enemies to burn actions on them is providing opportunity to the other party members. Maybe that keeps the front liner from getting overwhelmed or engages someone targeting your back liners to keep them going. It's always interesting for me to see how other people view different things around character builds. Those kind of perspectives can really shape how a party will handle all the challenges thrown at them. Overall I really enjoyed that. My personal ranking would be quite a bit different. I'll be keeping an eye out for when the 2 new classes and player core 2 get released to see how your lost changes.

[@RebelThenKing]

This video hasn't even been out a week and I can say that I'm already changing my mind on a few classes 🤣

[@zacharymink6793]

Have you had a chance to play test the exemplar or animist yet? The battle oracle and exemplar seem so close theme wise that I wonder how the oracle remaster will go.

[@RebelThenKing]

I have not. In fact I kind of forgot they existed with all of the remaster activity! @@zacharymink6793

[@recordzofthewasteland8741]

I couldn’t for the life of me remember what the missing class was when it was down to the bottom 2. I was ready to be so mad if you put my favorite class at the bottom, but you had it at number 1. Well played. Any other areas we disagree on the list don’t matter we agree with number 1.

[@reikidagi]

grow up

[@rattatooi]

Interesting. Your reasoning for not liking summoner is why I love it so much. I love the idea of having to rely on my summon to get the job done. Oracle (specifically life oracle) is my most favorite class in the whole game. The curse system could use a bit of an overhaul though when it comes to combat. Outside of combat that curse system is one of my most fav things. So much flavour and RP. I do feel like other classes do what they do better and without the negatives the curse adds. Bard is easily in my top 5. Can't really disagree with anything you said. We've all got our likes and dislikes which helps round out parties when you got a group going.

[@RebelThenKing]

Ha, that'll happen. I think people who are more into the roleplay aspects of the game really gravitate towards oracle, so that makes sense. I think it's great that there's something for everyone in the system!

[@MrShooter713]

Agree. But I love the Cosmic Oracle

[@austin80112]

Inventor not being a 5 on exploration means you probably never had a situation where the settlements are lower level than the party. The ability to be a true crafting expert from level 1 is cracked. Also in combat, overdrive makes them one of the best ranged damage dealers in the game. Double points for hitting every weakness in the game very easily with the multi-metal options combined with getting to add an elemental d8... It's kinda cracked. Also, with group overdrive and temporary gadget feats, you can turn your other party members into absolute monsters. Also, the construct companion can be crazy even on weapon inventors, but they don't share overdrive, so they're better for support roles.

[@SgtGitaroo]

My very first PF2E character was an investigator with a pistol main weapon. So much great roleplay and room for creativity with a good DM. It was obvious how much worse I was at combat compared to my other party members. Action economy was awful because of DOS + reloading, but it was a lot of fun. Felt so very fresh and different from anything I've played in a TTRPG before.

[@ethanabla2509]

Oracle, my love, you deserve a better support score for your full divine spell progression.

[@RebelThenKing]

Yes, I agree. I think the low support score for oracle is a really big miss on my part and will be corrected when I do a tier list or a post-remaster revised ranking.

[@drabheart9426]

Ranger has a support build that gives everyone bonuses against your hunted prey.

[@jonathanbennison9220]

7:06 Rogue. Support. While PF2 does allow. Other classes to double up on many of the Rogue support roles... And frees the Rogue to do many things in addition or instead... They do remain the single character most likely to have the most mastered and legendary skills. The most expert skills. If not the most trained... The most skill feats as well. Surpassing the few Fighter bonus Feats, or other bonus here and there for other classes. The Rogue is the most likely to have the skill mastery to perform support actions. If not be the single. Highest score on everyone. The Rogue can easily have Acrobatics or athletics or both. 2 or 3 social skills if not all 3. Stealth and thievery. And Medicine or nature. And has skill feats to spare for Athletics feats like Titan or Assurance. Allowing the Rogue to consistently trip the ogre... Freeing up actions for party. But Rogue shoves weak enemy down hole. Or into the trap the Rogue found and avoided with Trap Finder. Rogue Demoralizes enemy benefitting entire party, including casters With easier Saves vs DC's. I mean. I mean. Not to mention. Some of the best perception in game. Along with the skillslots to bump up 6 choices to Master and Legendary... And the skill feats to do some crazy things with those. All while. Being able to. Find and disarm traps, locks, and secret doors. All while being one of the best Skill Medics in game. Keeping up easily with the Cleric/Druid (in skill healing) Whose major advantage (potentially higher wisdom... Is moot with Assurance, and Without class feats invested into better skill healing (D10 medicine?) Falls behind in skill feats early. Not sure how you can call the Rogue, weak in support. Its also... Also... So versatile, It can easily end up providing a party missing a dedicated FACE, with social skills. All without considering ancestry... I mean.

[@OlivierCombe]

And it's a good DPS. And it's full of ideas for roleplay, there are so many rogues in so many media

[@jonathanbennison9220]

@@OlivierCombe absolutely I recently played a one shot and we happen to have a pair of Orc Ruffians. With Striking Picks. When they Critical. With the Crit Spec dmg. The Str dmg. The Sneak Attack. The Fatal. It's, devastating.

[@EpifanesEuergetes]

So is pf2e combat just mainly dealing or avoiding damage? No controlling & debuffing? Cause if it is that's a deal breaker for me.

[@EpifanesEuergetes]

Oh... so buff and debuff is part of support in your categorization? Ok...

[@RebelThenKing]

@@EpifanesEuergetesYup, buff/debuff is part of support. There is a lot of damage in the system, but also a TON of buffing/debuffing. In fact, my favorite way to play is in that support role. I play as a bard that buffs attacks, grants people additional actions, and even provides some healing. I also play as a wizard who focuses on protecting allies and controlling the battlefield by hampering enemy movement. There are tons of ways to play support in the system, and many classes like the bard, witch, and oracle, almost exclusively focus on buffing and debuffing.

[@takanobaierun]

Now I want to try that swashbuckler...

[@truevenom97]

I have personally felt that anathema opinion about the druid. In our year long ruby phoenix campaign the amount of loot I could not use if I were to stay true to my character was critically depressing. Our GM often forgot this so I payed for almost almost all of my gear (my teammates pitched in so I could get the good stuff).

[@LontEnCaras]

Ranger can get the soothing mist focus spell, which heals hp and persistent damage effects. That's pretty similar to lay on hands, so I think they should get a higher score in support! Also Sorcerers have more Spellslots than Wizards. Arcane Sorcerers can even learn spells with a spellbook, similar to wizards, when they take the arcane evolution feat.

[@toodleselnoodos6738]

(Wizard to the Arcane Sorcerer) Wizard: Who are you?!? Arcane Sorcerer: I’m you, but better. (And more popular, got a job, no student loans, and taking your mom out to dinner later tonight, I’ll drop her off tomorrow morning for your brunch meeting with here).

[@Fogelhut]

Wizards and Sorcerers can cast the same amount of spells per day as long as the Wizard isn't a Universalist Wizard or of the School of Unified Magical Theory. Starting at 1st level Sorcerers have 3 slots, while Wizards get 2 slots for whatever they want plus 1 slot purely for their School. On top of that, Wizards have 5 Cantrips with an extra 6th Cantrip they can use from their School, while Sorcerers have 4 Cantrips with an extra 5th Cantrip from their Bloodline, so if you count available Cantrips as Spellslots, then Specialist School-Wizards have more (by one).

[@RebelThenKing]

I did forget to mention Drain Bonded Item in this video, which allows a wizard to recast a spell and technically puts them just over the top of a sorcerer after you've added the extra wizard spells from their school/curriculum. And hey, one extra cantrip isn't insignificant! Another thing I forgot to mention is that on average I like the wizard focus spells more than the sorcerer focus spells, so that also feels like a small advantage. All of this being said, I'm playing as a bard and it makes me want to only play spontaneous casters in the future.

[@LontEnCaras]

@@RebelThenKing oh, true I forgot about the bonded item! (The wizard in our group never uses that) And yes, most sorcerer focus spells don't feel too great. At least the first one is almost always useless. But the second and third one are usually good. Now wizards have better focus spells, but without a dedication, they only get two focus spells! ...which for me wouldn't be that much of a problem, because all my groups play with the free archetype rule. And yes, a cantrip more is a a good thing. The sorcerer I play has 10 cantrips. He has Cantrip Expansion, a caster dedication and arcane sense, so I absolutly agree! Moar cantrips! Oh and witch focus spells have become better with the remaster. Before they were all like "you can do this, but now your target becomes immune to it." Now that immunity part is gone. Technically you can play a prepared caster as a spontanious caster with the flexible caster archetype but.. that reduces their overall spellslots which isn't worth it imho.

[@7Coolpablo]

Intersting list. As you predicted there is some disagreement. E.g inventor can have some useful support skills in healing, buffing damage, debuffing enemies gizmos. I think the stregth of the system is that most classes can be played multiple ways (damage, support) without being pushed into a single role and should get some higher scores. Secondly your personal opinion weighs in heavy. For some classes this doubles up their highest score (i like them because he has good combat utility. Overall nice thought-provoking video.

[@justinvonmoss6925]

I’ve been playing a rogue (levels 1-3) lately and I like it a lot… Until we get into combat. I do a lot of damage, but it’s kind of boring. I just walk behind the enemy, so I’m flanking it, and stab until I run out of actions. I want something more to do or to mix it up.

[@RebelThenKing]

I know what you mean. We had a rogue with twin feint and almost every turn was a regular feint action, and then twin feint. It just made so much sense and attempts to do other things like fully hide, disarm, or use a skill action just didn't work out.

[@kevinbarnard355]

That's all up to you and which racket you pick. There is NO reason to stick with a rotation or optimal DPR action sequence. Try not to think about your rogue as a damage dealer, and instead think of your rogue as a solution maker. Keep bombs in your pocket, quick draw is amazing, underhanded assault is fun if you want to be in melee all the time. Ruffians want to use athletics most round, but they won't use the same maneuver on each enemy/round. If you picked Thief, then you kind of did it to yourself. It's the simplest and most DPR efficient racket, but it has no unique actions or combat contributions.

[@RebelThenKing]

I really like this - "think of your rogue as a solution maker" @@kevinbarnard355

[@michaelstanet7453]

I got you criticism of summoner if you don't like the focus being off you PC, then the class is a bad fit. The Summoner has lots of moving pieces and you have to be very focused on the action economy metagame (which most players are not going to find so appealing). I however like playing classes like and really leaned heavy into it. I played a summoner with Beastmaster archetype, and because of the summoner action economy and that the animal companion will default act on thier own even if not commanded, this is totally workable. Having "three pieces on the board" gave me high damage, battlefield control, and defense (the summoner has lots of damage mitigation/healing options for eidolon and pet).

[@jonathanbennison9220]

26:39 Hahaha... You put alchemist, above fighter... Just. Wow.

[@bill2908]

I think it’s pretty clear he’s ranking them based on how much he likes playing them

[@ToradLP]

A good structured video, I agree with a lot of the rankings and really liked the stable presentation style. I noticed that some of the rankings of the "objective" categories, especially support were quite inconsistent. As an example, the champion got high support for a healing focus spell while the Kineticist with 4 heals every 10 minutes without resource cost some of which are better than lay on hands does not get that. Some classes got pointed out that its great that they have the most spellslots (btw, the class with the most magic/spellslots is the sorcerer, not the wizard) while others like the psychic or magus were not pointed out to have fewer and the different spelllists and spellcasting modes (prepared vs. spontaneous) were not weighted consistently at least in my feeling. I have 3 ratings I really disagree with: The witch, with the resentment being the by far best debuffer in the game now (e.g., slow even on a success will last forever now if the resentment witch is near, funnily enough making it exactly the sustained debuffer you were asking for when complaining about the witch) seems to be highly undervalued, it should have 5/5 in support and another +2 for the resentment being the best boss fighter in the game (and at least as written the witch has infinite wands over the course of a longer campaign, making them the best exploration character as well since their level 6 feat does not end on daily preparations). I also think you undervalue the ability to have a familiar that comes back for free every day in exploration as a scout and traptrigger as well as a roleplaying tool of having an emessary of your patron to speak to and roleplay with (though that is probably just not interesting for you since you said you dont like pets. The kineticist in my opinion was also sorely underrepresented. They have literal infinite healing that works just on a timer so no refocus nessecary. The way you graded champion that alone should bring them to 5/5 support with a +1 for the stackability with a champion or similar archetype. And then they have infinite walls, protector trees, a better stoneskin for everyone who wants it and so much more. For exploration they also deserve higher in my opinion due to the access of PERMANENT flight and insibility at level 8 with air and the ability to create permanent infinite walls within minutes with extended kinesis proliferate of stone or steel. Finally, giving the gunslinger just 1/5 in support when they have the best support action in the game with fake out that just dwarfs any other support (1 Reaction, no action cost for a guarantueed +4 to an attack at level 13? Yes please!) is a bit surprising to me. One thing that I personally include in my rankings is stealability, e.g. I don`t value champions reactions so much because they are easily taking via archetype, but that is purely a question of what question to ask.

[@RebelThenKing]

Gotta remember that the wizard gets an extra spell slot at each level from their school/curriculum, an extra cantrip from school/curriculum, and their drain bonded item ability to recast a spell, which does give them more spells per day than the sorcerer! That being said, as I get further along in my wizard gameplay I'm starting to get burned day after day by prepared casting and sitting with a bunch of spells I can't use.

[@RebelThenKing]

Also worth noting that every champion has Lay on Hands, but not every Kineticist is going to heal. I also count the champion's reactions as support, since they reduce damage to allies and can debuff enemies. And same here - every champion will have a reaction. So every champion build is going to be at least decent at support, whereas some kineticists might not support at all.

[@ToradLP]

​@@RebelThenKing I of course take the additional spellslots from the curriculum into account but even adding those the wizard is just even with the sorcerer (cantrips don't matter that much to me, 5 is more than enough and if I want more a spellcasting dedication or ancestry is an easy way to get that). Drain bonded item would put the wizard numerically ahead by 1 but most sorcerers can easily catch up with divine/primal evolution and greater vital evolution. However, as you already mentioned, the main thing bringing sorcerer ahead is that they are a spontaneous caster. Prepared chasting is a chore for adventuring days (it is really great for downtime though) and you probably will lose a good percentage of your spell slots to "being filled with stuff that I thought would come but didn't" which does reduce the practical number of spell slots usable per day quite a bit. The one wizard that could pull ahead is a cascade caster but I find those a bit unrealistic to use in actual play. Of course, a witch with their infinite wands would be ahead by a mile of both wizard and sorcerer but I still believe that the permanency of the ceremonial dagger wands is a mistake and hope that it will get errata.

[@ToradLP]

@@RebelThenKing This is absolutely fair, champions getting their features automatically is an important point to consider so you don't just do whiteroom math with things that no one chooses in play, it was unclear to me that you took that into consideration for the rankings. For the kineticist, I think the support options are so powerful that no good build except maybe a pure fire blaster would have not enough support to outdo the champion as all the other elements have amongst their must-have impulses strong support options.

[@RebelThenKing]

"being filled with stuff that I thought would come but didn't" really does happen and is absolutely worth calling out. It does make me think that the wizard will probably lose some ground whenever I re-rank classes. That drain bonded item is pretty helpful earlier in the game, but when you're later level and are sitting on 6 unspent spell slots because you just couldn't use them, then being able to cast fireball twice isn't all that helpful. @@ToradLP

[@johnthompson8580]

I personally dont thing roleplay should be a ranking thing as that is dependent on whos playing it and example is one of the best role plays i ever saw was a basic guard with a spear who being in a tavern one evening saw adventurers buying drinks for everyone and having a good time and he thought to himself well i risk my life each week for a measly couple of silver, so he spoke with his wife although reluctant supported him and then he was off on his adventures, he played the character very stingey with his funds and sent back almost every gold or jewel he had back home to his wife, the DM would occasionally send mail to the fighter with a present (to make sure the fighters gear kept up with the rest of the parties) and a letter from the wife telling how its going back home and how the money he sends has been changing the status of his family in the community

[@zoesequeira5388]

I get what you're saying with the "you be you" point on summoner, but also that feels like the entire point of the class. If I wanted my summons to be substantially weaker than me, I'd play a witch or any spellcasting class that has summoning spells. If you want the fantasy of having a pet or summoning a monster that's stronger than you, which is what the summoner aims to fulfill, you can't also then be the "main" character of the two in terms of mechanical focus.

[@jonathanbennison9220]

3:56 I'm building a support druid for the party, as a DMNPC, for the sessions we have upcoming where there PC Cleric, with healing font, healing staff, Medic dedication, Dr's visitation, continual. Ward... They heal a lot. They will be away. In the nasty part of the Dungeon. So. A. Druid standin. Shouod be half decent, and, bonus points, I think it might be bringing a tower Shield. So. Free cover allies. Yay. But. Focus attack spell. In combat. Refocus in exploration... Goodberry heal? Focus before combat. Splash some Treat Wounds with Nature for good measure. Yay.

[@moonlight2870]

I actually would rank classes that have their roleplay attached to their mechanics, such as the cleric or the champion, LOWER. A fighter doesn't have much going on, but that just means you have thevfreedom to play whatever you want. I almost prefer the fury instinct instead of dragon or giant because having anathema forced on me sucks.

[@craigrussell7542]

Putting the scores beside the names would also be useful.

[@link090909]

Now I have to run a 1-shot for a fighter, summoner, oracle, and witch 😂

[@RebelThenKing]

Ha! The party would still be fine, because really nothing in the system is that bad. The fighter, for what it's worth, I think is mechanically super, super strong and will help out any party. I just personally think they're a bit of an oddball in the system so I rank them kind of low. Also, witch is probably going to go up in my personal rankings at some point. Oracle... sorry.

[@hellfrozenphoenix13]

​@RebelThenKing Oracle needs help and are apparently getting reworked in Remaster Core 2. Aside from like Life Oracle, it has too much it gives and not enough that it gets. They are essentially a risk reward class where they are gambling $50k deals on 50/50 chances to gain 1k back. I hope the remaster for them makes the curses a bit more balanced and gives them a real reason to choose to go high curse on every Mystery and for it to feel good. I don't mind risk,but it must come with reward. Why would I sacrifice half my max life for a fireball with no upsides if I can just cast fireball?

[@RebelThenKing]

Yeah, I find it tough to read through the end of the list of penalties and still be excited to cast that spell @@hellfrozenphoenix13 😓

[@hellfrozenphoenix13]

@@RebelThenKing agreed. I think they should rework how curses are gained so you can choose to advance it on spell casts, gain a benefit if its from a focus spell, and a focus spell given at level 1 to lower the curse level, so there's a lot more "do I want to take more penalties for benefits" going on. Then rework the vast majority of the mysteries. Life Oracle is okay, but I struggle to say the same for the others.

[@stefanjrgensen6842]

afaik sorcerer get the same amount of spellslot as wizard but less choice with chosen tradition where as wizards get fewer spellslots but more choice in their tradition

[@kevinbarnard355]

Wizards get the same number of spell slots to use as sorcerers, and one extra cantrip. If you include Drain Bonded item, they have one more slot than sorcerer. Sorcerers are more likely to get to use most or all of their slots as Wizards will have some dead ones.

[@jonathanbennison9220]

36:15 You can be a charismatic Bard And fall behind in face of the party. Its possible. Especially if you neglect that one thing.

[@BestgirlJordanfish]

Yeah absolutely Oracle needed a rework. I don’t even think it deserves 5/5 for roleplay. PF2E doesn’t use handy infographics or diagrams for help teacher players. It’s all blocks of text or charts. Oracle could really use a simplified flow process to match the way Focus Points changed, just downgrading curse levels whenever you have time to refocus. On longer day campaigns, it kinda just sucks. I think it should be changed to a slightly bounded caster (like six spells a day instead of four) that uses its curse like transformation powers with drawbacks or weaknesses. Maybe have really good cantrips that can only be used during curse states, or offer more melee unarmed attacks to represent a curse (tentacular aberrant or void aura or twilight druid vibes etc)

[@naboroux18]

Cleric with a 2 in combat? I guess it depends, we did curse of extinction and I had a Cloistered saranrae cleric, might have been the heaviest hitter in the party (with a champion and a barbarian in the party!)

[@RebelThenKing]

Well dang, that's a pleasant surprise. I'm pretty sure our cloistered cleric critically failed every time they tried to use their deity's weapon, so pretty much the opposite experience. They were mostly stuck casting daze for tiny damage and then healing everyone.

[@kevinbarnard355]

@@RebelThenKingWho uses daze for damage? It's only useful for nonlethal, or finding out if something is mindless. Divine lance, Needle Darts, or Haunting Hymn (aoe) are the way to go for Divine caster damage cantrips; or pick up a primal/arcane cantrip from an archetype/ancestry. With Remaster in play, Void Warp and Divine Lance are way, WAY better than Daze. That also gives AC and FORT to target. Anyone who is bored or disappointed by their actions should look at the choices they made and consider retraining. There are usually MUCH better options out there.

[@jonathanbennison9220]

17:58 There are a couple, awesome. Mutagen... That on the right PC vastly outweigh the drawbacks... But, you CNA always just buy those anyway. So.

[@JamesTillmanjimthegray]

poisons are brutal in game with my toxicologist and gunfighnters are defently a 5 in combat , the pathfinder world is a post renaissance world but even if not guns predate full plate so the guns dont bother me but great video

[@RebelThenKing]

Which poisons are you using? I started using poisons with my bomber build, mostly poisoning the darts used by our crossbow ranger. I often found something would pass its fort save and take no poison damage, or it would take a bit of poison damage but then the barbarian would smash it to pieces so there was no additional poison damage. What's your strategy to make poisons effective?

[@JamesTillmanjimthegray]

You want to use toxicological they get to use there class dc for all potions unless the posing dc is better, of course things like undead and constructs are immune but you have bombs for them. The dots add up quick

[@JamesTillmanjimthegray]

I tend to hand out some and spread the rest around

[@kevinbarnard355]

Your Rogue analysis misses the mark substantially on their support capability. They have at least as good of a support opportunity as a Swaskbuckler, and possibly more. Only the Thief racket is selfish, with no group support options. Mastermind plays with Recall Knowledge, helping athletes, casters, and with knowledge in general, Ruffians ARE the athletes that MM rogues would help, Scoundrels will be demoralizing/feinting like crazy, and their feinting can help everyone (including those attacking vs reflex if they take a racket feat), and Eldritch Tricksters were abandoned in Remaster (thank Norgorber), so we don't have to talk about them. Thanks to their increased skill proficiency/feats, they are also one of the most supportive classes outside of combat. They make great medics (the fastest to achieve and branch out with impactful feats), great socialites, great crafters (maybe the best), and great investigators. In short, even including the Thief racket (which interacts the least), every Rogue has a means, and a reason to setup their allies. Tripping/Grappling/Feinting/Flanking/Identifying is generally good support, and they get more of the skill feats to support those actions. Plus, Rogues are great with bombs for varied weaknesses and debuffs. Bottled Lightning sneak attack makes EVERYONE happy.

[@jonathanbennison9220]

37:02 Bard is not bad. Agreed. But. Does your Bard, win the fight? Does your party function, without the Bard? Who does it miss most. The Bard? The Cleric??? The dedicated PC the Bard is buffing to actually hit and hurt stuff? The fighter/gunslinger/barbarian/monk/ranger/or Rogue? Now, if your Bard, is filling the role of Trap Skill Monkey... Did it replace the Rogue? Can you now explore the Dungeon, without a Rogue? If you have a Rogue, did the Bard neglect its support thievery, and when the Rogue dies... Can the Bard get you out? The Bard is seriously the one class you start every party with? Wow. Bard, ironically, has been the most replaceable in our party. We don't have one, never have. I will say, It might have done more good in the party than the witch or sorceress did, before they died. There is that. (premaster witch) But. Wouldn't replace our Cleric with a Bard. Wouldn't replace our Thauma with a Bard. Our Ranger archer+companion, granted, is a roleplay and arrow machine. It could be swapped out. We'd lose a ton of attacks that have been critting impossibly high lately. Regularly. Flurry is just, so good. The Bard would trade out DPS, and thievery and nature medicine and animal companion, And bring in some buffs and some magic and some Bard stuff. They'd need to bring medicine and thievery, to sub for our Ranger. And would be 1 PC instead of an archer and a mini tank. But. Ok. ... And our Monk became our Kineticist. Tank. DPS. Now elemental. AoE all day. Literally, I'm terrified to see the Ranger share Hunted Prey with our Kineticist and our Thauma. I wouldn't mind seeing a Bard in that 5th slot where our Witch was struggling. But as a Psychic at the moment, they are contributing nicely. Big Amos that function well.

[@jonathanbennison9220]

4:48 Can the Barbarian not Demoralize? Intimidation. Can they not Athletic sGrapple/shove/trip/disarm/reposition? And Prone /Grabbed = Off Guard, which aids out Thauma and our Rogue and our Ranger Archer in hitting better... Helps your already accurate fighter/gunslinger, hit even more accurately... That's some benefit. And, nothing cooler than chucking an enemy, down a pit hole to its demise. Oh, did you have over 100 hp left? Did you fall of the ledge though? Sorry, not sorry

[@texbo1919]

Wait what? Wizards have most spell slots? Since when?

[@RebelThenKing]

Added a pinned comment that explains it all. But yes, wizards get an extra spell slot at each rank from their curriculum and get to use Drain Bonded Item to recast a spell, which technically gives them more rank spells per day than a sorcerer even.

[@Landmassorussia]

While I do agree with most of the rankings and placements, Oracle having 1 support really, really is not accurate. Between the massive buffs or heals mysteries like Life, Time, and Ancestors can provide and the equally crippling debuffs mysteries like Bones, Ash, Cosmos give, I personally wouldn't give it any lower than a 4, to say nothing on the sheer amount of hp replenishment having Signature Spell heal/harm can be and the flexibility to grab from deity granted spells it you want.

[@RebelThenKing]

I do think they deserve higher than a 1 as well, so that's a miss on my part. I'll be making a tier list video pretty soon that will make some adjustments to the scores so I'll keep that in mind. Remember though that I'm judging support as your ability to buff/heal/debuff others, not necessarily yourself. I don't see a lot of curse effects that work on others - mostly just on the oracle character. But you are right that the LIfe oracle can really deal out some healing and that Ashes being able to conceal your party is great.

[@Landmassorussia]

@@RebelThenKing you're absolutely right about the curse itself not effecting other people, outside of Ash giving a weakness to fire damage. What I'm referring to is the focus spells for each mystery, not the curse of the mystery, combined with the Divine spell list.

[@RebelThenKing]

Ah yes, totally. Sickened from the Ashes spell, Dazzled from Cosmos, great callout on those and others being good support focus spells. @@Landmassorussia

[@9652769]

I concur that Oracle has more in support. 1. They have the divine spell list 2. Even the battle Oracle spell focus is a buff... To others.

[@skateshark]

I don’t agree with some of your top picks. I don’t know how a thaumaturge got such a high combat score. I play with a thaumaturge and they are always dying and not doing a lot of damage, their strength is more in role play. I also don’t think Bards are the best class, more middle of the pack.

[@jonathanbennison9220]

15:16 So. Thing is. Almost everything that's currently plaguing the Alchemist? Kinda fixed in the Kineticist. All Day abilities. AoE. Versatility. Gish. A bit of Magic. A bit of Martial. Super versatile. Perhaps an elemental. Monk. Or elemental Eldritch Fighter. Perhaps a Martial. Sorceror. What the elemental. Sorceror wanted to be. Definitely not a. WIZARD OR CLERIC But, never run out of Reagents, and totally trust your abilities. Even potentially gain ability to Punch through Elemental Immunity... To burn the unburnable. Our Kineticist just Arena Solod 3 Black Puddings, under level, while the party ran and hid. The Thauma ran for its life. Ultimately, the Sorceress(splash Rogue) died painfully inside an acid puddle of Black. Pudding.... The Kineticist Solod them with almost disdainful ease. Despite being below their level. In the environment she lured them too, they simply, couldn't catch her, while she flamed them into roasted pudding dessert. Kineticist, should get points for being a better alchemist, than the alchemist. Heck at this point... You might want to roleplay your alchemist, using the Kineticist. And pretend you are using a bag of infinity reagents, instead of a Gate.

[@TheLandau1894]

This is easily the most accurate tier list for this game I've seen. But i do have a couple bones to pick. - You have two REALLY subjective categories. Roleplay And Opinion. And 3 if you count your +/- bonus points. It didn’t skew your list too much... except for Fighter and Wizard which are both just wildly misplaced. I think you're mis valuing a few classes that have abnormally large power swings between highly optimized and less optimized builds. There's not actually much if any less power in a properly built and piloted Investigator as a support character versus bard/cleric/champion... it's just WAY easier to ruin your build and be useless. A properly built one can be a monster. A properly built Starlit Span magus is the best pure damage dealer in the game, and it's not close. Given any kind of party support to improve its accuracy and it basically breaks the combat system. And even the worst Magus build probably deserves the spot you gave it. Psychic kinda the opposite. The spot you gave it is probably appropriate for a really good build... but Psychic has a lot of really BAD options that kind of brick your character in combat.

[@RebelThenKing]

I'm already starting to think about a new ranking video once all of the remaster changes are done, and I realize it's going to have to rely heavily on opinion.There's been a lot of really good re-balancing and though there still are some objective winners and losers, it's mostly going to be feel.

[@tinear4]

I do not understand your caster rankings. Drain Magic item gives one extra spell slot, but sorcerer has an extra slot to begin with. And Cackle *is* a free action. AFAICT the witch, wizard, and sorcerer are functionally equivalent (though not identical) when we consider the arcane domain versions alone. The focus spells are where things get interesting, but even there it’s close.

[@RebelThenKing]

Wizard also gets an extra spell per level from their school/curriculum, which catches them up with the sorcerer, and then Drain Bonded Item puts them over the top! It's definitely not as big of a difference at later levels, because have something like 16 spells compared to 15 isn't that big of a deal. The wizard also gets an extra cantrip from their school/curriculum, so that's 6 cantrips rather than 5. Since cantrips auto-heighten, I consider this a pretty big deal, allowing you to have a solid 3 attack cantrips and 3 exploration cantrips.

[@drabheart9426]

Barbarians are experts in perception. A 1 for exploration is a bad take. They more often than not take nature skill and ive had 2 groups in a row where nobody took the nature skill.

[@xezzee]

Rogue should get +1 general bonus for being a Skill Monkey. Without the -1 Rogue would be 5th on the list ^_^ but I think 16.3 would be fair with shared rank of 9th, so 10th. Simple reason. Rogue has ability to gain more skills and feats which is why it is Skill Monkey. This benefit can be applies to any part of game Combat/Explorer/Support/Roleplay to make it +1 in my opinion. Rogue can take Field Medic for Battle Medic and Assurance for Medicine level 1 and by taking Expertise Medicine lvl2 and then lvl3 you can add War Medic and Continual Recovery. This allows level 3 Rogue to heal 2 people with Treat Wounds every 10 minutes without failing and is able to heal people once in battle using 1 Action to Treat Wounds. Support 3. Not the best but by far not the worst. But this is ONLY Thanks to Rogue being Skill Monkey. Thus General +1. How about Rogue with Trap Finder feat taking Expertise in Stealth lvl 2 and Quiet Allies? Party can now sneak using single +4 stealth roll while also searching for Traps using +9 Perception. Again thanks to Rogue being Skill Monkey I consider this to be +6 Exploration activity. You can also invest this to Role Playing by being a Smith or Singer and investing all skills and feats around that. There are also options for making the Combat better like Legendary Stealth allowing to stealth anytime in combat for Sneak Attack if you can't do it otherwise. So 15,3 could be considered 16,3 or even 17,3 without your -1 complain about "there are too many Rogue" which is my point. They get +1 for being too good at everything. So I would say 16.3 is fair assessment.

[@Fogelhut]

I don't quite get what you mean with Quiet Allies and Perception to find Traps at Level 2. Quiet Allies takes your whole party and you roll the Stealth bonus of whomever is the lowest at Stealth, so if you roll as the entire party and you have a Fighter who didn't take any Stealth in the Party and even has maybe a Stealth penalty due to armor, the whole Party may be rolling at a -1. The Rogue's stealthiness doesn't really affect anything that way. The Perception thing requires you to pump Boosts into Wisdom and take the Trap Finder Feat. You CAN have even a +10 to Perception checks for Traps, but that requires you to hit three Wisdom attribute boosts in character creation with the Trap Finder class feat. It could be all the way down to a +8 or even a +7 if you took no Wisdom boosts or no Wisdom Boosts with a Wisdom penalty from choice of Ancestry.

[@kevinbarnard355]

@@Fogelhut Quiet Allies (QA) uses the Follow the Expert (FtE) action. This means an Expert in Stealth is making everyone who follows them have a +2 circumstance to Stealth. If they are untrained in Stealth, they also get their level from proficiency. A level 2 Fighter with a minus 1 to stealth (untrained) now has a +3 minimum skill check (barring armor) which is 4 more than they would have without FtE. QA makes it so the whole team rolls once, increasing the groups chances to succeed. 1 roll with a +3 has better odds of party success than 4 PCs each rolling with a -1, 0, +2, +4/6 and +10.

[@xezzee]

​@@Fogelhut Party of Four is most likely going to launch a direct attack on Bandit camp in order to save the merchant or use deception to inflirtate the camp. But they will never use Stealth as option because with -1 0 +2 and +10 against Perception DC16 (Bandit) the chance of everyone succeeding Avoid Notice is 1,3% which makes stealth not an option at all. Quiet Allies makes that 1,3% to a single roll with +3 minimum which has 40% chance of succeeding, which makes Stealth inflirtate an viable option. During the Quiet Allies no one can use Search exploration activity to find Traps which require at least Trained Perception except the Rogue with Trap Finder feat. Trap Finder mostly gives you +1 against Traps and to find them. But Trap Finder's usefulness hevily relies on DMs ability to use Traps. If DM never uses Traps then Trap Finder is just wasted feat. Additionally Traps like Hidden Pit has Stealth DC 18 which allows everyone to roll Perception check to find it but Spike Snear crafter by Expert Crafter would have Stealth DC 16 (trained) requiring use of Search epxloration activity and Trained Perception to be found which might be found in Bandit Camp, Goblin Tunnel or similar places where one might expect an enemy to lay up few Traps around like Alarm Snear. Again, hevily reliased on DM's ability to use Traps.

[@kevinbarnard355]

It's obviously an opinion piece, so I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong, but you are often judging classes very differently with the same metrics. For Oracle, you essentially docked them for their curse mechanic twice. There's no reason to give them lower scoring on support and exploration because of their curse, and ALSO -2 mod for curse when they can already do what any other divine caster can do, and some things that they can't. They have some of the best Focus spells in the game, start with 2, have the best off tradition spell access, and like Swashbuckler, have a fun class feature steeped in RP, even though it doesn't give you much raw power for that work. Some of the mysteries even give you very strong personal/party benefits, without inconveniencing you too much. You get to control when your curse affects you, and how much. Also, Wizards being trained at a school (a choice) is far less interesting RP for many people, than a person born with a gift/curse that they have to balance and explore. Cool, Wizzy had a mentor/teacher. Sorci/Witchy poo over there had to battle personal demons/patrons to wrest their secrets from the universe. Will that come back to bite them in the ass later? Will their patron/ancestor make demands of them in return for their gift? All more flavorful than "books done taught me stuff". I'd argue that wizards have some of the least amount of RP baked into their class. Investigator and Rogue both have more RP baked in, especially around being the smart guy/tactician than a Wizard. Wiz have school and planning their spells. Every other prepared caster has that last feature, so Wizard doesn't even stand out as a Master spell planner. Witches have more baked in support than Wizards, with more options for spell tradition, which inherently gives them more support and likely as much exploration. Their familiar is also a built in, daily (replaceable) opportunity for scouting/investigation which the wizard can't replicate without a familiar archetype.

[@MrShooter713]

Great video. I’m so glad to see fighter where you put him. Most over rated class of all time.

[@BRZ3RK3R]

Please fix your camera focus. :D

[@jonathanbennison9220]

Crit Magnet is a bad thing? Because why... Are they drawing too much aggro? Consider Army of two. One Aggro, one Shadow. Perfect team.

[@jonathanbennison9220]

Isn't the gunslinger. A Gun Fighter? And, can make xbows kinda cool, even if Firearms aren't in your game? I kinda hate the PF2 firearms as written. But I just rewrote them as Numerian, and or, Numerian knockoffs... And voila. Now they are mostly perfect. Drop the correlation to our firearms and suddenly they standing fine as a fantasy alternative to the xbows. But... Fighter accuracy. Styles that are just too cool. Perhaps more damage than the Ranger Archer. Perhaps more specialized than the Fighter Archer... I mean.

[@ItsDeffoScott]

It's funny to me it's a given that this is your own opinion but people are still annoyed by it

[@HiImLerazzo]

Lots of stuff to agree with; Thaumaturge, Kineticist and Psychic are awesome. Summoner, Alchemist, Oracle, Inventor, Gunslinger are a quite janky. I really don't agree with the comparison of Wizard and Sorcerer. I find prepared casting so tedious and I don't think "🤓" is awesome roleplay. Are Sorcerers not at least as supportive as a Wizard if they go arcane, and more if they don't.

[@RebelThenKing]

Yeah, playing as a bard now and it is wonderful just hitting "rest for the night" and being ready to go. I also recently had a session with my wizard where I had a bunch of mental spells and we kept encountering mindless creatures, so yeah, being spontaneous would have been WAY better in that situation. Honestly, it's almost more about my outside-of-Pathfinder, real life experience of always having to work super hard at things and not being super natural at anything, so I just identify with wizards a bit more. All that said, a Phoenix Sorcerer is one of my top build ideas for a new campaign right now.

[@HiImLerazzo]

@@RebelThenKing I think I have the opposite approach; I am already a studious nerd in real life, why would I want my fantasy characters to be exactly like that. Hence why I prefer the Sorcerer over Wizard. Also you can create some strange backstories with the bloodlines that aren't just my great-great-... - great grandparent was a _. When did your powers awaken, why did they awaken, how do people react to you, how do you see whatever creature is influencing you. It ties you very close to the fantastical I think. Other things I like about Sorcerer mechanically; 4 spell slots, nice focus spells, the learned spells from bloodlines are bonus spells; you don't actually have to use them at all if they are bad, nice feats that allow you to dip into many things, no extreme daily preparation shenanigans (I don't think I understand how people even write down what spells they prepare), no wasted spellslots if you misprepare something. I do appreciate the versatility of prepared casting though - but I think it is nicer to get that through archetypes or just buy niche scrolls than having that be your entire class.

[@Manovellozzo]

Summoner rocks!

[@elizj]

Hm, lot of witch & familiar criticism here... perhaps you are simply jealous? 😅

[@weezlbee1]

eidolon.....

[@archmagemc3561]

How do you rate alchemists that high? They are easily the 2nd worst just behind oracle and depending on the campaign can be an outright hindrance to your team due to just being so weak. Their accuracy hurts, they don't get auto scaling crafting, their consumables are horrible compared to spells and have insane feat taxes and horrid action eco Being able to craft so much stuff doesn't matter when the stuff they can craft is hot garbage and often 8 levels below where the party is actually at with spell buffs. The 'good stuff' they can craft your party can't actually use, because the duration is so short and pre buffing before a fight takes way too many actions. Martials have to spend an action to drink, an action to change grip/draw, then an action to move or set a stance or whatever. Casters can't reposition if they wanna drink a potion and often don't have a free hand to even drink any, and your not going to buff people in combat without the DM being super generous and homebrew-y or letting the alchemist use ANY alchemical tagged item regardless of rarity since a lot of items that 'fix' some issues with alchemist are rare(And since they were made for alchemist, very little effort was put into explaining them leading to confusing rulings which are just homebrew anyway.). Compare this to a caster who just spends 2 actions to cast haste or heroism or something which is better than anything you can provide since your buffs often have drawbacks as well. And alchemists have so many feats that are often mandatory for them, or class functions that are just outright broken and pointless, that they barely function as a class on their own. And of course, without poisons, their damage is the lowest in the game if they can't exploit an enemy's weakness. And thats not even mentioning how they are so horrid at low levels that they might as well be half a player. Granted, giving a homebrew item that lets your party members drink a potion from you as a free action when you roll initiative, giving the alchemist a class feat at every level, and giving them master in all weapons at 13, and making advanced alch AND quick alch give your alchemist DCs instead of just quick alch, AND just removing poison immunity from mobs if your alchemist is a toxicologist/just in general, you'll have a class that is.... not too bad tbh. Not a fighter or a monk, but they aren't at the bottom.

[@RebelThenKing]

Mostly because I want to believe in the poor alchemist 😅 I played as one for my first two years and definitely experienced how ineffective most mutagens are with the party not even bothering to take the actions to use them. I hope the remaster breathes some life into this class. It's been around since the beginning, has received multiple erratas, and still lags behind just about everything.

[@Reevos]

You keep using this term Gish like its something common. I've never heard it before. It would be helpful if you explained that term a bit more. It sounds like sword/caster from what you are saying about Magus, but I'm not sure. My only gripe is Rogue's low support score. They have the most skills of anyone, and support with all the skills. Not sure who you are playing with that doesn't do Anathemas as they come up in almost every game I run or play in. Oracle has the best healing in the game. Curses are easier than the psychic class.

[@RebelThenKing]

Yup, you got it, gish means a combination of martial and magic. I guess I don't really know where I first heard it, but it's used a lot in my party and in some of the other channels I watch. I like that the Life Oracle can roll d12s instead of d8s, but I still prefer the Divine Font of clerics for all of the heal spells, and the fact that Clerics are WIS-based so they can also be great at non-magical healing. I also like Druids as healers too since they have access to the Heal spell, are also WIS-based for non-magical healing, and often will pick up Natural Medicine for a +2 bonus to those healing checks.

[@liamcage7208]

Wow, Bard as #1??, Fighter at #21?? All other Martials middle high in the ranking ? We all have our biases but if you can't be more subjective than why bother making a list? So many of the rankings had nothing to do with the categories but were instead decided by your Opinion. You should have just started and ended it with your Opinion and forget about pretending that you were honestly ranking the classes. So having said that. It was fun watching your video (while getting outraged, lol). Keep up the good work.

[@jonathanbennison9220]

6:40 Voting your Rogue down, because it's too good at too much stuff. Kinda, sad. Fighter = too good. Thauma = too good. Rogue, just does what it does, and happens to be a pretty exceptional base to rewrite almost any scoundrel onto. Ie. Want to play a 3 musketeers or Pirate? Play a Rogue, and pretend you are using Panache.

[@jonathanbennison9220]

Ewww. 5:38 Panache. Sorry. Not sorry. Like. RP panache, with your Rogue, Thauma, Vanguard Gunslinger. Call all. Those awesome things you do, Your Panache. And just, let it work all day. Panache. Swashbuckler. Eww.

[@jonathanbennison9220]

7:06 Rogue. Support. While PF2 does allow. Other classes to double up on many of the Rogue support roles... And frees the Rogue to do many things in addition or instead... They do remain the single character most likely to have the most mastered and legendary skills. The most expert skills. If not the most trained... The most skill feats as well. Surpassing the few Fighter bonus Feats, or other bonus here and there for other classes. The Rogue is the most likely to have the skill mastery to perform support actions. If not be the single. Highest score on everyone. The Rogue can easily have Acrobatics or athletics or both. 2 or 3 social skills if not all 3. Stealth and thievery. And Medicine or nature. And has skill feats to spare for Athletics feats like Titan or Assurance. Allowing the Rogue to consistently trip the ogre... Freeing up actions for party. But Rogue shoves weak enemy down hole. Or into the trap the Rogue found and avoided with Trap Finder. Rogue Demoralizes enemy benefitting entire party, including casters With easier Saves vs DC's. I mean. I mean. Not to mention. Some of the best perception in game. Along with the skillslots to bump up 6 choices to Master and Legendary... And the skill feats to do some crazy things with those. All while. Being able to. Find and disarm traps, locks, and secret doors. All while being one of the best Skill Medics in game. Keeping up easily with the Cleric/Druid (in skill healing) Whose major advantage (potentially higher wisdom... Is moot with Assurance, and Without class feats invested into better skill healing (D10 medicine?) Falls behind in skill feats early. Not sure how you can call the Rogue, weak in support. Its also... Also... So versatile, It can easily end up providing a party missing a dedicated FACE, with social skills. All without considering ancestry... I mean. 7:29 Overpowered, so dock them. Too good. Dock. Points. Hahaha.

[@jonathanbennison9220]

6:40 Voting your Rogue down, because it's too good at too much stuff. Kinda, sad. Fighter = too good. Thauma = too good. Rogue, just does what it does, and happens to be a pretty exceptional base to rewrite almost any scoundrel onto. Ie. Want to play a 3 musketeers or Pirate? Play a Rogue, and pretend you are using Panache.