Rant on 10:1 DSG's and Frankentorques

[@rex3453]

Stock G&P grip that came with my Mk 18. I shaved down the top and made damn sure it wasn't causing any miss-alignment. I did, however, have a Magpul MOE grip to start with but immediately took it off. Still getting the same issue. Even in a SSG set up, it warms up quick. Battery is a 45C 2650 MAh 3 cell running through a BTC Chimera.

[@erikmendel937]

WICKED VIDEO. covered all the questions I had with no time waisted well done sir

[@valleyriverarms]

thanks dude glad these vids help people still

[@valleyriverarms]

Oh for sure. I'm not sure if I mentioned the low draw but yeah that would be one of the pro points. I'm not sure that I would agree that the 10;1 set is efficient but I can sort of see what you're saying with the DSG?

[@ChamiCh]

at the very least, I received a big batch of chaolis a few months back and there were several different varieties of armatures with different windings in there.

[@valleyriverarms]

Interesting. I will say that my JG blue that I'm running on my dsg gets quite warm. I can't confirm for sure but I think the Chimera setup causes a little bit of resistance because of all the screw terminals. But it's hard to say. I would usually say check the shimming but I'm going to ASSUME it's good.

[@rex3453]

I don't know if it's the shimming honestly. I left .1mm of play with each gear since I'm using G&P 8mm bearings, and I only have one 1mm shim on the top of the bevel. I honestly still can't get the hang of the bevel to pinion shimming. I don't know how much play my pinion to bevel should have, or if there should be at all; when you press up on the bevel gear when the motor is in.

[@hamsterarms]

We really need to get a standardized nomenclature for the FT's. I think it was you who figured out that Chaoli makes like 5 different arms. Though, thinking about it, Let's find out what tpa is best for a 10:1 dsg, my guess is 24-5. Slightly slower than JG blue but the extra torque would make up for the gears and spring. Call it the 24TPAChaoliAMatrixC motor

[@ZaCkOX900]

Oh I meant in any setup, efficiency. If you go single I prefer torque. But yes I understand your imply.

[@valleyriverarms]

In my experience there should be a little bit of play in the bevel so that it can accommodate in the event of being too tight on the pinion. It's hard for me to judge though without trying it in person.

[@Maekiii]

I agree on many of the points, but I run 10:1's for their efficiency, and how little gear noise they make. My PDW is the coolest running gun I've EVER had. Less motor heat per shot than I've ever witnessed, and at 50rps its just ridiculous. DSG's are for efficiency... :P The most important point for FT's is the low current that they draw to pull heavy springs.. You dont need as big of a battery as you do with balanced motots.

[@rex3453]

I'll probably just end up making a video and posting it on ASM. Hopefully that can solve my motor heating issues.

[@brandongoad1692]

From what ive heard, they are really efficiant and they run really cool

[@Rapax97]

I agree with you. I bought the 10:1 set and i wish i wouldve got a 14:1 set.

[@valleyriverarms]

^yeah and that's sort of the point I wanted to make. The Frankentorque motor in general has been thrown around a lot recently as sort of the end all motor and it's just not the case. I've hit something like 48 rps on a single stroke setup before and it was a lot cheaper than my DSG build :P Don't get me wrong it wasn't the same in feel but the numbers were similar.

[@valleyriverarms]

I have no idea as I've never tried it on a 7.4...?

[@valleyriverarms]

from what I've seen they run similar to the other acm motors I've tried. Not bad but when their price point is close to Lonex I might as well go Lonex.

[@brandongoad1692]

You should try an element motor.

[@kevinnguyen8498]

How reliable are hi-caps with DSGs? I'm thinking about starting a new project with a Thompson and eventually adapt it into a Pulse Rifle. The dilemma is whether or not hi-caps would be able to keep up with 50ish RPS. I'm thinking the reason most people don't do DSG thompson builds is because the main spring for the mag would be small similar to a MP5 mag making it not usable for high ROF builds. Thoughts? Would be pretty awesome to have a Pulse Rifle DSG since I haven't seen anyone do it yet.

[@valleyriverarms]

Hi caps in general can work really well with dsg builds but I have no experience with how fast the thompson mags would keep up. The gearbox I know you could make shoot at a high ROF but the mags I have no experience with.

[@ZaCkOX900]

Efficiency is always better in my book. Gold motor it is! :)

[@valleyriverarms]

what kind of grip are you using? As I mentioned in another video, the magpul moe grips in particular cause slight misalignment which can create excess heat.

[@valleyriverarms]

It gets so confusing... It might have been andrew or mike that figured out how many types of arms chaoli makes. I sourced all of the motors for the TPA experiment btw so when my next paycheck is here I will send those over.

[@lawrencesampaga390]

How about a g&p m180 satan high torque is that can be used in DSG????

[@valleyriverarms]

The problem with the JG reds is more often than not price. I would actually prefer the Matrix Magnums simply because they're easier to find and they have stronger magnets. And cheaper after Evike discount.

[@valleyriverarms]

it could be? But it wouldn't be my optimal choice. Magnets are kinda weak and I'm not sure the windings. 18:1 dsg it would probably be fine.

[@valleyriverarms]

I would also disagree. The Lonex motors that I've used have had better quality control and tolerances than the JG blues. Again, the frankentorque is not the end all motor simply because of the speed differences. Your mileage may vary though.

[@trollin456]

so why is umbrella armory building shit so priced so expensive?

[@valleyriverarms]

You're paying for a company to build you something custom and that costs time and money involved with running a business. You need margins and markup for a business to run

[@valleyriverarms]

yes but the flip side of that is people are using these with 10:1 dsg's which aren't as efficient and you end up getting ROF that you could have gotten with a single stroke setup. Like I said, diminishing returns *shrug*

[@kmoser444]

What is the fastest high torque motor?

[@blueridgewarden2838]

How can I make a hair trigger because in my local cqb field theres semi only.

[@valleyriverarms]

Not sure. Never done one myself, you have to google around but I know there are some threads on forums about that.

[@psychcpnappl]

can you do a video just describing what the ratio means

[@valleyriverarms]

maybe. but basically lower number is faster

[@valleyriverarms]

I would disagree. I enjoy my 50 rps dsg. It sucks cause I can't use it at Tac CIty because of the ROF limit there but when I can use it I love using a high ROF setup. I will say that the sweet spot is somewhere around the 30 rps range for most people, but that's just no fun for me if I can build something faster.

[@theshrink1163]

what are some good ways to source parts?

[@valleyriverarms]

depends which parts you're looking for.

[@theshrink1163]

motors, gears, externals. pretty much cheap boneyard since all the stores are out.

[@valleyriverarms]

working on people's guns and asking to keep the old parts is a good way. BST forums have some gems too but they're populated with stupid people so you have to wade through that.

[@theshrink1163]

thanks for the reply man. appreciate it. have a nice day! :)

[@AlpineBishop]

Anyone know the rps I woukd get with a Frankentorque(chaoli armature, matrix 3000 shell) with SHS 10:1s and 11.1v Lipo with mosfet and deans connectors? Im trying to get great trigger response without going over 25-26 rps. Suggestions?

[@valleyriverarms]

Skipjack647 shs doesn't make a 10:1 set but with that you should expect something 20-25. Hard to say.

[@AlpineBishop]

valleyriverarms yeah typo but I figured it out.

[@lawrencesampaga390]

Thanks for info....

[@herunlimited]

Hi! I note that you have a Dboys M4 RAS II I wonder if you recommend 11.1v lipo battery, or is too much voltage ? Because I will buy the M4 in shootercbgear and they dont have 7.4v. shootercbgear. com/product_info.php?cPath=42&products_id=4242 I hope you can help me. Thanks a lot!

[@rex3453]

Well...heh. I guess I'll just stick with my 14:1 DSG on a Lonex A2. The only reason why I want to get a frankentorque is just like HS5 said, people preach it as being efficient. Seeing Maekii show off a frankentorque 10:1 DSG with 52 RPS just gave me the idea. The other BIG factor is the fact that my Lonex A2 is just spurting out carbon build up for no reason lately, and it's getting HOT after just doing a quick burst / ~20 semi shots. Heh.

[@herunlimited]

thanks a lot!

[@valleyriverarms]

I just sourced all the motors and once I purchase them I will be sending them out to the people who will be doing the rewinding.

[@FOVAirsoft]

So i built a 14:1 with 22tpa ASG CNC motor, and m170. Is this supposed to only get 34rps? and the motor supposed to give off a burnt smell without actually being hot? bettery 11.1v 1800mah 65-130c

[@valleyriverarms]

That sounds about right. That's a heavy spring. DSG or no? And yeah motors can give off a burnt smell regardless cause of the brushes burning against the commutator. If the grip is smoking though thats a concern.

[@FOVAirsoft]

@@valleyriverarms dsg yeah 9tooth

[@valleyriverarms]

@@FOVAirsoft You might need a bigger battery. I've noticed that the ASG motors under load are a little slower than some other brands. Maybe bump up to a 30k or something like that.

[@FOVAirsoft]

@@valleyriverarms okay thanks

[@valleyriverarms]

I'm confused as to what you're getting at but the madbulls that I've seen are pretty bad.

[@valleyriverarms]

you could get away with an a1 although i would suggest an a2 for a little more efficiency.

[@whatfor5]

(cont) "normal" setups. If you want to run 40rps, you can run that on an M120 FULL STROKE. Thats far more efficient than a DSG running 40rps. If you want high efficiency, and want below 40rps, what you want are fast full stroke gears. I've been pitching this for ages. As an aside, the 10:1 DSGs were never supposed to be offered because they exceeded the load spec of various components. People just discovered the sector gear was compatible with regular 10:1 SC gears and off it went......

[@valleyriverarms]

er. I wouldn't run with a1 but yeah I guess it would turn over

[@valleyriverarms]

nope. blue and 14:1 would be close to 10:1 and FT but not nearly as slow.

[@brandongoad1692]

I thought i would try the element. Why not, lol

[@valleyriverarms]

nope. All being used currently.

[@Kenjaiz]

Well shit. I wish I watched this video before I ordered 10:1 DSG and M210 spring with JG blue. This is going to be my first DSG build. I guess I better go order a 14:1 for better efficiency.

[@valleyriverarms]

Yeah all I can say is that's going to suck a lot of power either way. You'll get low 40's by my estimation with 14:1's an a JG blue depending on your battery.

[@valleyriverarms]

for that setup yeah I guess if trigger response is all you care about.

[@valleyriverarms]

frankentorque will give you that trigger response

[@valleyriverarms]

lol sort of by definition that would be a speed motor. I guess the closest I could say would be something like a matrix magnum or lonex a1 but both could be considered balanced motors.

[@Wayloncashwillie]

zci high torque motors are good

[@valleyriverarms]

as a stock gun, an 11.1 is too much power. Do the proper upgrades and then use a lipo. For right now just buy a 9.6 1600 mah battery.

[@whatfor5]

I like high TPA motors, they have their applications, but I've always found the 10:1 DSG+frankentorque combination a bit hilarious. Your result is often a slow DSG. Now people claim this is efficient, and it may be more efficient than a 14:1 DSG and faster motor, but I see people recommending them for efficiency flat out. This is simply absurd. DSGs serve their purpose, but the parts strain they create, their inherent inefficiency, and their specialization makes them poorly suited for (cont)

[@armoyg714]

Or JG red:) the old, slower one not the new faster hotter one