RCNC X2 Router 13: Mounting the Anti-Backlash Rack & Pinion Drive

[@MegaTopdogs]

Eerst even een gezond en productief jaar , net als jij hield ik bijna niet droog op het eind , man, man, man , wat een machine, geweldig !!!!

[@RoboCNCnl]

Haha.... een en al emotie dus :) de beste wensen !! (Ps check je berichten even, had je een berichtje gestuurd met de vraag voor je email adres)

[@oeljee]

Geweldig, met genoegen naar gekeken. Prima uitgelegd en goed in beeld gebracht. Ben zelf 72 jr. en was storings monteur van de pick and place machines bij Philips, waar ook nog een stukje pneumatiek bij komt kijken. Gefeliciteerd met het resultaat.

[@RoboCNCnl]

Beste Fred, bedankt voor het kijken en het leuke bericht ! Pneumatiek is ook altijd fascinerend, zeker ook door zijn snelheid en geluiden :)

[@oeljee]

RoboCNC Frees- & Graveerwerk Dank je wel, techniek blijft mij boeien.

[@adamna1672]

I just finished putting my 4x8 together. It's a beast of a machine!

[@RoboCNCnl]

Now have fun with it ! (Although, I’m working Friday night, this Saturday and Sunday due to having a machine like this 😂)

[@mohamed_fawzy]

Give that engineer a medal

[@RoboCNCnl]

:)

[@h4z4rd42]

IT'S ALIVE! Grats Marcel, it looks awesome, and the sound... so smooth, got to love it. Well done, good job!

[@RoboCNCnl]

Thanks for watching and the great comment !

[@phillhinkler3174]

Really nice build. It will be a super accurate machine. The twin pinion gearbox is a great way to go.

[@RoboCNCnl]

Thanks !

[@shawnschultz5509]

That's awesome looking machine, love the sturdy build and quality components you have chosen. I was biting my nails when you had to pull out those keys, glad you got them out without damaging anything! Looking forward to seeing the machine in action. Again great work!

[@RoboCNCnl]

Thanks for your great comment Shawn ! Yes indeed, I spoke to DamenCNC also to keep those keys out when selling.... Its hard to get out, and indeed you could damage the system.. Hope to find some time soon to work on this project again..

[@alfredoconner9892]

I guess im randomly asking but does someone know of a method to get back into an instagram account?? I somehow forgot the password. I would love any tips you can offer me.

[@bransonmarco7879]

@Alfredo Conner instablaster :)

[@alfredoconner9892]

@Branson Marco thanks so much for your reply. I found the site thru google and I'm in the hacking process now. Seems to take quite some time so I will get back to you later when my account password hopefully is recovered.

[@alfredoconner9892]

@Branson Marco it did the trick and I now got access to my account again. I am so happy:D Thanks so much you really help me out :D

[@pecilijevelicanstveni4973]

Way men!!! Until now this is one of the best machines that I saw!!! Congratulations!!!

[@RoboCNCnl]

thanks !! Thats very nice to hear !!

[@Z-add]

you should checkout this one kzbin.info/www/bejne/goDEdZJtmqmLpK8

[@ismatnabila]

I have a question, do I have to remove the pinion from the rack when not working with the cnc? If I mesh the pinion to the rack with the anti backlash setup once & leave it as it is even if the cnc not operating, will this harm the gear or rack teeth?

[@RoboCNCnl]

No you just leave the machine as it is. No problem at all. I do keep the rack sprayed with some lube to prevent fly rust and stuff.

[@ismatnabila]

@@RoboCNCnl Thanks a lot for the quick reply.

Hi Marcel, sadly reached the last episode of this highest quality series of CNC building videos. Good content, good explanations, good pace, good views, good sound, and a pinch of humor... Hardly waiting the follow up of all this, how did you solve your bed levelling issue, dust collection, first cuts... Anyway thank you again so much for all

[@RoboCNCnl]

I'm not there yet.... the machine is in the state of the video.. :) I have very limited time... Hope to work on it soon again....

Well, just hope your lack of time is good news, and whatever the thickness of our wallets, time is the ultimate scarsity for us all :/ Keep it strong, we'll eagerly wait... ;)

[@ralfklaassen]

bedankt voor de kristal heldere uitleg Robo!! deze heb ik hopelijk ook nodig als de grote klus doorgaat die in de pen zit. machine loopt als een naaimachine. drink er een paar op want dat heb je verdiend. fantastisch beest heb je ontworpen en geassembleerd. gefeliciteerd!!

[@RoboCNCnl]

Thanks Ralf ! Ja ik blijf er gewoon een paar op drinken :) (benieuwd naar je project)

[@davecox900]

well done mate its nice when you first fire up, i can see you smiling

[@RoboCNCnl]

Thanks Dave

[@JKTechSi]

Nice Marcel! I wish you all the best in new year and as little 20:37 moments as possible :)

[@RoboCNCnl]

Thanks Jure ! best wishes to you to...

[@jorgenlannock]

het ziet er steeds beter uit. we kunnen niet wachten om deze in werking te zien, maatje! ik ben zelf ook bezig met een aluminium cnctje ipv mijn houten beest. maarja, is niet profesioneel als de jouwe natuurlijk. mijne zal gewoon weer beltdrive zijn voor hout. veel succes met de opstart!

[@RoboCNCnl]

Thanks buddy.... Zorg dat je in een dermate modulaire wijze bouwt dat je later kunt upgraden zou ik zeggen. En probeer van de fouten te leren die je zelf eerder maakte en die ik heb gemaakt. Dan is er altijd vooruitgang ! Beste wensen nog !

[@davidjobe9876]

Mijn beste wensen voor het nieuwe jaar Marcel. The beast is alive !! Nog een tip je kan in die spie een M4 tappen, zo kan je die rapper eruit duwen met een press-vijs. In plaats met die vise-grip tang te werken, deze laat zelf markeringen na.

[@RoboCNCnl]

Bedankt voor de beste wensen en de tip en het mee denken David ! Dat wordt altijd gewaardeerd ! Allereerst ook de beste wensen natuurlijk ! De spie heb ik heel boos weggegooid dus markeringen zat haha

[@Neo7CNC]

That is a good looking (and sounding) machine Marcel!

[@RoboCNCnl]

Thanks buddy ! She seems sturdy... :) but the proof is in the pudding :)

[@What-is-thehandle]

Do you think this dual gear rack and pinion set up helps prevent wear or accelerates the wear with the constant tension on the rack? Thank you so much for taking the time to document this set up and the build or your machine. Do you think the backlash compensation of the servo tuning can make up for the play in the cheaper worm reduction boxes? The precision ones are so damn expensive.

[@RoboCNCnl]

Hi Chris, I think the wear will be less because you don't fores the pinion in with a spring, however i don't know if this is a real issue to address.. I think in every worm wheel there will be play, it depends on how much. Also it will probably get worse over time... best would be a planetary system, but i had to use the worm gears do to available space.

[@canonguy9448]

Looks great, Marcel! Have you had any thought about putting mechanical end stops at the bounds of gantry travel, in case your limit sensors were to fail?

[@RoboCNCnl]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.... ! Yes I do want to use mechanical end stops indeed. Haven't thought about how to do it though... Don't want to limit the travel. Just Endplates will not work since the hiwin carts would be the first to touch with their grease nipples :) More to come i guess

[@sto2779]

Just curious, after mounting and calibrating, what kind of accuracy and repeatability can this rack and pinion CNC router hold? Are you using precision ground rack and pinion parts? If so where did you buy them from? The reason I ask is because I am planning to build a 4 ft x 7 ft CNC router and need tolerances of at least 25 microns and with this length ballscrews is out from the question and need to consider using rack and pinion. Planning to build the cnc router from UHPC or epoxy granite. Will do fine art of 3D carvings with the CNC on wood.

[@RoboCNCnl]

For that kind of accuracy I think you should be doing great some real world testing. It kind of useless for me to name a number since it will depend on the force of the cut. It’s close to nothing, but it’s a belt. You migh look into helical RP .

[@brettwatty101]

It's alive!!!!!!!!

[@RoboCNCnl]

Yes it is... drink one tonight to celibate with me :) Thanks for watching !!

[@thegreenman4898]

hi, will the belts need to be adjusted after a running in period?, i assume they will stretch a bit. how long before you have to replace them? thanks i hope you can live with the sound of that machine bouncing of all that tile!

[@RoboCNCnl]

I don't think the belt will really stretch since it's a timing belt. It could indeed break, (quite quick if I have tensioned it to much). But on the other hand my previouse machine is running on the Y axis for years now without the belt breaking. And of course this is not the final position of the machine, i'm building it in house in my spare time, and still have to move it to the shop.

[@darlanjhony8193]

How do i get these stuff

[@RoboCNCnl]

Everything is explained in the videos and in the information below the video's. Please watch the full video, without skipping

[@PATCHOCKES]

another way to do the maths is teeth* module which gives the gear pitch diameter in you case that is 30mm and then do 30*pi. pitch diameter x PI. still keen to see what the backlash is in the worm drive.

[@RoboCNCnl]

Thanks for sharing ! And for watching of course... I'll do a test on that soon I think.. Have to think a view tests trough before doing a video on it.. Think it will be nice to do all axis, pinion backlash, wormgear backlash, runout etc. in one video.

[@daluidi6864]

Question: Why did you take the decision to go for backlash rail gear system instead a screw-ball pre-load system? Any particular reason for that choice? Great job anyway, very nice to watch that and the design is really good. Congrats.

[@RoboCNCnl]

When ballscrews exeed 1 meter of length the shafts tend to wobble on high speed rotations.. This gives problems.. A much better way would be to keep the ballscrew steady and make a 'rotating ballnut' but this is quite complex to make.

[@xConundrumx]

It's nice but I am worried about the rack and pinion thing. I was considering one myself but after doing some research I am in doubt. By and large the biggest concerns seem to be backlash (which you are trying to fix here) and also wear on a system like this being much higher than the usual ballscrew solutions (as hardness is lower). A problem which is more pronounced if you use certain areas of your work area more than others (i.e. places where you have/mount a clamp or if you the same 0,0 location a lot). What do you think?

[@RoboCNCnl]

You are right about the concerns.. If it was even possible to do with a ballscrew on longer lengths i would absolutely do so... So if you make a machine with

[@xConundrumx]

@@RoboCNCnl I have seen ballscrews though that are longer than 1m, in fact a couple of them recently sold for less than 100 Euros on a dutch online auction site. Both of them were even still in the original box :). It is not a common thing but I have seen several go over about a years worth of auctions.

[@xConundrumx]

@@RoboCNCnl I wonder if you could use ServoBelt systems for this. Seen people make Pick and Place machines with them and these things are _insanely fast_ not sure if they could deal with heavy stresses and loads. Hard to find really good info on them (but it's late :) ...)

[@mornmadness]

Hai Marcel.. Very nice cnc machine you have.. can u show we how to count steps/mm if I use ballscrew.. thank you..

[@RoboCNCnl]

Hi... Well showing is not going to be that easy... But it is quite simple to explain by text. - The ballscrew has a certain pitch (5mm, 10mm, 20mm or something like that, given by the supplier and chosen by you i suppose...). - A steppermotor has (or most of them) 200steps per revolution - The stepper driver has a microstep setting (most of the time on the side of the driver you can see the steps per rev. in microstepping) So if the driver is on 1/2 steps you would have 200/.5= 400 steps per revolution. If your ballscrew has a pitch of 10mm this means 1 rev makes a 10mm linear move. So 1mm (or unit) = 400/10=40steps per mm (and thats what you set in the software

[@mornmadness]

@@RoboCNCnl Thank you Marcel..this is really helping me out..

[@leopardbush1619]

Great stuff!! Any update on these drive units

[@RoboCNCnl]

No sorry, no time left to spe4nd on the machine these days... I have to build in my spare time. I'm working on the controller electronics now, so the controller that I used here to test the machine is back to it's original machine to keep doing cnc jobs.

[@BoumanserviceNl]

gebruik een zijkniptang of een kopkniptang om de spie te verwijderen, vastgrijpen met de tang op het eind van de spie en de tang als hefboom gebruiken en tegen de as de spie eruit trekken...

[@RoboCNCnl]

Bedankt voor de tip !

[@rahamtullahmansuri7665]

Where did you find all the parts?

[@RoboCNCnl]

Rahamtullah Mansuri search and you will find...

[@rahamtullahmansuri7665]

Where exactly should I be searching? Can you recommend any website?

[@393strokedcoupe]

Great build that I wish to do myself one day. I wonder if there is a recommended torque range to aim for when setting the tension? I believe that would be a safer way of setting the tension taking out as much backlash as possible without over stretching the timing belt. Thanks for the effort and generosity of sharing with us! PS: I've just started watching this series as of January 2018. I can't wait to watch any other videos you have to see what this beast of a machine can achieve!

[@RoboCNCnl]

I have been talking about this to the maker and they said they will try to include a torque recommendation in the kits... not sure if this is done already.. but contact them for that question ! I have said the same... thanks for the nice words !

[@alessiog.3601]

hello, i saw that this component is different from the one currently available on the site where you indicate the purchase. Is it compatible with your project? Also I have not seen a video of your machine in action!

[@RoboCNCnl]

I have looked at there website and think it is still the same... You might have seen the one they use on the Y axis... Anyway, you can always send them an email.. Yeah sorry man, I have so little4 time, I was planning to move the machine to the workshop this weekend, still did not get to it... maybe next week.. sorry

[@alessiog.3601]

now that you tell me, it can be. I'll look better. Lack of time is a common problem ....

[@tonyblane3587]

Will the rack stay in alignment?

[@RoboCNCnl]

4 years ago already… and still aligned, still following along? Did you see our latest videos? Don’t forget to subscribe if not!!

[@ClockwerkIndustries]

Any update on this??

[@RoboCNCnl]

5 years ago already… still following along? Did you see our latest videos? Don’t forget to subscribe if not!!

[@barkiebarkie3138]

super mooie machine en heb alle video's met plezier gekeken. Ik kan alleen nergens de kosten terugvinden. Waar staan deze ?

[@RoboCNCnl]

Volg de link naar de website voor meer info..

[@AdrianFourie]

Jou videos is baie goed. Wel gedaan..

[@RoboCNCnl]

Bedankt !

[@jaapdekker5983]

gefeliciteerd, mooi werk!

[@RoboCNCnl]

Bedankt voor het kijken Jaap !

[@joppepeelen]

Mooi man ! mooie machine volledige eigen ontwerp ? zag ook wat damen CNC onderdelen en heb daar ook een tijdje naar gekeken. is er een reden waarom je voor rack and pinion bent gegaan en niet alles dubbel ballscrew voor de lange as ? (te lang ?) Iniedergeval klinkt perfect! ik ga even je andere videos kijken :)

[@RoboCNCnl]

Hi Joppe, bedankt voor je bericht, ja volledig eigen ontwerp met natuurlijk wel diverse design concepten die ik gezien heb in andere machines. Ja in de regel krijg je vrijwel altijd problemen als je kogelomloop spindels gebruikt langer dan 1 meter door slingering. En de spindels gewoon steeds dikke maken levert veel te veel massa traagheid op.

[@AnthonyWebb7]

Dying for another update, hows the machine?

[@RoboCNCnl]

Keep breathing :) I have had almost no time to work on it... At this moment finishing the controller, so the first steps should be soon...

[@stevenrichardson7882]

A bit late but a massive 👍👍 Well done.

[@RoboCNCnl]

Thanks !!

[@magnuseriksson4697]

Wooww.. nice ..its a live.. nice work you have don..

[@RoboCNCnl]

Thanks Magnus !

[@Dheerseng]

Good totally cost of machine?

[@RoboCNCnl]

Read and learn my friend :) follow the link

[@kkimfinaxmusic3883]

Very impressive idea buddy, nice installation and i have no doubt there would be no effective backlash in that system when properly installed. Have seen all your posts here :) I would like to adopt that two pinions-tensioning-each-other system for my next build and am currently looking into misumi site for all available modules and parts. One thing I am wondering is the limit of mechanical resolution when pinion is traveling on the rack, apart from backlash. How high with the precision/resolution can you go with that system? (I believe you would know I am not talking about servo-encoder-pulse resolution) I understand you are using mod2.0+15t pinions which gives me the feeling that it would provide satisfactory pushing torque, if only it can actually control each axis at under 0.02mm effectively.O, btw, I am designing 3:1 + 4:1 reduction timing belt system using 3gt timing belt with a tensioner rather than worm-gear box.tks, Kevin

[@RoboCNCnl]

Well due to the fact you can choose the ration on the wormgear you can decide resolution vs speed for your application. However, indeed a wormgear will always have a small radial backlash. Even in the reduced settup. I have not done extensive measurements so i have no hard numbers. but if you have the space you could ofcourse go for a different type of reduction. (For me the 90 degree bend is giving me the space i need in the mall shop to. btw, the pitch and mod can be altered to... no real hard math was used in my case to choose these.

[@BenMateffy]

I don't understand why it has two drive sides and how can they work in sync. Why just one anti backlash mechanism on either side isn't good enough?

[@RoboCNCnl]

imagine the motor use all of its 2kw of power to cut material... a lot of force will be put on the gantry. If you would do this on either side the gantry would tend to go crooked if it was only driven from one side. You could drive from beneath in the middle but that's a cheep option. backlash should be taken care of (just like every problem in life) at the source... so if you introduce two drive sides, you have two places for backlash, and so you have to work at both.

[@BenMateffy]

RoboCNC Frees- & Graveerwerk I understand that one - what I didnt get is how can they work together and exactly turn at the same time. You can tune two motors in the cnc software to work in sync? Because just a little difference would press the other side of the gear to the gearrack or some kind of friction would generate if you know what I mean. Because on one side the play or wobble is already eliminated and it isn’t backdriveable, it holds on the gearrack and it just moves as the motor and the drive move if I am right. Another side would be nearly impossible to align right - at least for me - it means each teeth has to be exactly parralel to the other one? I have never seen anything like this in cnc machine thats why I am curious :)

[@CopyleftBR]

awesome explanation, thank you

[@RoboCNCnl]

Thanks ! and your welcome

[@amigosocialmarketingplatfo8959]

What is the tool he used in calibration?

[@RoboCNCnl]

What calibration?

[@marcus3d]

Super good video, but in the math at the end, what the heck is the extra "p" letters you're sprinkling all over the place? It obviously can't mean "per" because that's what the "/" means. So what are those p's?

[@RoboCNCnl]

Hope I now make your day, because you are absolutely right. Bravo :)

[@marcus3d]

@@RoboCNCnl Do you mean the p's and /’s both stand for "per", by mistake? I thought it was something I just didn't understand.

[@RoboCNCnl]

Yes the p and the / are the same, exactly as you understood. Otherwise you would have know as there is also sound in the video. So ignore the p’s and thanks for your constructive feedback.

[@sebastianMGV]

Hi, Thank you for sharing such excellent work. Could you please share with us some details i.e: What is the max speed of this machine (mm/min), What are the used motors (model #) for it? I guess that you are not using closed-loop motors, at least I wasn't able to see any encoder. It should be great if you can put on test this machine, under heavy load, cutting different materials (Wood, Al, Steel, etc), Trochoidal milling, to find out its limits (Is there a video link?). By last, Have you created a custom tramming plate? or How you solved it? Maybe a new video with this information could not only be very informative but also a good marketing campaign for your X2 CNC. Wish you all the best and please keep working at this level of quality.

[@RoboCNCnl]

Wow, thats a lot of questions.... I know i'm not complete in all info, but i build the machine for me to work... It's not to sell so all videos take me a lot of time (of working). maximum speed i have not in my head, slowest is the RP (think i set it to 2m/min, but that is also used on Y just because i dont want it to go faster. most of the work i do is lets say in the 1400mm/min range). I have not yet placed the definite table on it (alu extrusion) have to much work to take it out of order... It is just working with a spoilboard now. For more info, follow the links in the description.

[@sebastianMGV]

​@@RoboCNCnl Thank you for your prompt response sir. Please don't get me wrong,I learned a lot of your work, I'm trying to move one step further with my own CNC. Even if I'm conscious that making a video for the community requires a lot of time and work it should be great if we could see X2 in action. I can confirm it that you are using open-loop motors (34SM080-050-8W-SB12-4 4Nm). Please let me suggest you that you should sell this model, I'm sure that with some improvements (mainly in the electronic area) and removing/reducing some non-critical elements (structural parts) this X2 could be a really good and competitive product on the market. Actually it is better of many others which are being sold 'as good'.

[@WorksbySolo]

Hey, saw you on Daniel's picks. Good stuff! SUBBED!

[@RoboCNCnl]

Hi ! I could say exactly the same ! Welcome !

[@juansebastiandominguez96]

Great job!

[@RoboCNCnl]

Thank you !

[@AnthonyWebb7]

Wonderful man! Looking forward to a kit :)

[@RoboCNCnl]

Thanks ! Will have to think of that indeed.... thanks for letting me know !

[@AnthonyWebb7]

Even if a guy could just get the custom brackets, he could source all the stock extrusions, rails, rack/pinion, etc from the suppliers direct. The custom brackets are where a guy could use a kit :)

[@canonguy9448]

waiting impatiently to see it cutting :-)

[@RoboCNCnl]

Yeah me to... :) I have just so little time.... Working on the controller now and think i'm at 80% done with it...

[@flyxtube]

GREAT MARCEL

[@RoboCNCnl]

Thanks FlyTube !

[@nsbharathi4402]

Super

[@RoboCNCnl]

A bit late, but thanks ! Don’t forget to subscribe and check out the latest vids !

[@Z-add]

This looks better than the one from cncrouterparts.

[@RoboCNCnl]

This is not a model to aim on being affordable, but aimed on quality... thanks !

[@Samielbasri]

Very good job ;-)

[@RoboCNCnl]

Thanks !

[@customcycle6330]

Hello! As always interesting and informative video. Thank you! P.S. Happy New Year!

[@RoboCNCnl]

Thanks!! And you guys a happy new year to !

[@scottvincent5291]

Nice

[@RoboCNCnl]

A bit late, but thanks ! Don’t forget to subscribe and check out the latest vids !

[@ilya8540]

мега мозг

[@RoboCNCnl]

4 years ago already… still following along? Did you see our latest videos? Don’t forget to subscribe if not!!

[@Bigwingrider1800]

ALL THAT EXTRA WT? I DONT GET IT...BELT DRIVEN RACK WOULD BE JUST AS GOOD. AND FOR ACCURATE CUTS BALL SCREW..NOT AS FAST BUT MUCH MORE ACCURATE...

[@RoboCNCnl]

Wow... now you tell me? We needed a real engineer like you when designing...

[@Bigwingrider1800]

@@RoboCNCnl I thought you got it for free and had to use it. I know about the wt thing (but with a ball screw) when I built mine I used 3/4 alum. plate.The machine is 5'x45" and over 300 lbs. Needless to say its HEAVY. but it's a bad ass and never miss a step. 170 IPM rapids. When I drew it I wanted a rigid foundation and man I got it.