RDWorks Learning Lab 89 Axis Squareness Issue

[@bernardnadia4099]

Cher Russ, milles mercis, en effet, moi aussi j'ai jeté l'éponge il y a 7 ans avec ma graveuse et d'avoir trouvé votre chaîne a été salvateur. J'ai plein de motivation désormais et de projets grâce à vous. Et merci à votre épouse de vous laisser le temps de nous aider de la sorte. Nadia

[@paulrabsonic2864]

"I've been watching you A la la la la long" :) Thank you a lot Russ. Considering yours courious and problem solving ability you've become a mentor to a lot of us ... homemade lasercut "engineers" :D Thanks to this video you helped me to solve my axis squarness issue but on the blue machine (the same which is standing beside thunderlaser in your workshop) it was tricky because there was less access space to belt pulleys and it was difficult to adjust pulleys without removing all axes frame. Moreover i had to use combination of pulley and side belts tension adjustment ... couple of hours ... "couple" tests and finaly my laser machine cuts SQUARE. One more time ... THANK TO YOU :D

[@SarbarMultimedia]

Hi Paul I'm glad that solving problems with my machines has allowed you to do the same I could stop there and wish you good luck but I have a suspicion that you may have solved one problem and caused another, Carry out this simple test. Stick a piece of MDF or thick card over the hole in the head to cover up mirror 3. turn your max power down to about 20% and drive the head to front left. Pulse a light scorch burn onto the card. Move the head to front right and repeat. If your X axis is set correctly the second mark will coincide perfectly with the first. Now move the head to rear right and add another scorch mark. Hmmmmm...so it does not coincide? and then move to back left and the mark you make there should coincide with marks 1 and 2. Am I right or did you get 10 out 10 with all 4 marks coinciding? Best wishes Russ

[@paulrabsonic2864]

Hello again :) Yes, you were right :D after axes adjusting it seems that I will have to make beam adjustment and guess what ... ;) yes, your great video will also help me in that I think. I did what you have suggest to me with test and my results are: RL=FR but FL is slightly out from center (about 2mm) to left and RR also 2mm to right form center. So between FL and RR is about 4 mm difference. I Think will manage this in next step but now I'm most satisfied about squarnes. I've made a few cut tests at all corners and didn't noticed much difference casued by beam irregularity but I know it have to be done :) I can say that there is no way to deal perfection with those chinese blue machines together and we have to accept some imperfection for overall effect :) practise make perfect but it's boring when everything is perfect :D Greetings and thanks again :)

[@imajeenyus42]

Brings back happy memories ;-) In mine, I ended up cutting the rear drive shaft in the middle and using a split-clamp shaft coupler to connect the two halves back together again. That way, the coupler could be slackened and both halves rotated relative to each other (after loosening the bearing screws). I didn't rely on the pulley grubscrews because they dig into the shaft and make fine adjustment difficult. This was something that had totally been ignored by the factory. In actual fact, I never bothered trying to get it perfectly square, and instead do correction in software. For example, I know that scaling by 100.15% and then skewing anticlockwise by 0.3° will give me a perfect cut!

[@SarbarMultimedia]

Hi Lindsay Many of the Red Sail clones have a central drive for the Y axis with a split shaft as you did for your machine. I have always considered that a design weakness (until now). I realize that halving the shaft length reduces the torsional flex but that can still be achieve with a central drive position on a full length shaft. Slightly more expensive pulleys with a split clamping system would be a great improvement and something I will be talking to Thinklaser about. Near perfect or not , I'll find any excuse to rip the machine apart to find out how "that bit" works I like your off- the-wall approach to squareness Best regards Russ

[@katrinamaxwell923]

Russ, I've been searching high and low for something like this and was almost at the point of giving up! So disheartened at this stage with my machine but I can't face throwing in the towel until I know I've tried my best. I have a very similar machine. I first noticed an issue that circles were skewed/ slanted/ not circular. Then I decided to do a test with some square shapes and noticed they were also 'leaning' to one side. I measured the shapes and found what seems to be an out of square issue. So I'm hopeful i can cut perfect circles and squares soon! Investigating the machine I have discovered that the Y rails are not parallel to each other, a difference of nearly 3mm between measurements across top and across bottom. Obviously this meant measurements across the diagonals would not be equal; sure enough a difference of 4mm. I am in the midst of trying to sort the parallel issue (headache and still struggling to loosen the rail supports box section, thanks to extremely tight spaces to access the fixings), however, I noticed you had to loosen the runners/ bearing block? Does this allow for a rotation of the block relative to the X beam or something similar? I don't fully grasp how they work. Also, I assume I need to fix the Y rail parallel issue before going near the big bolt at the back of the machine to evenly align the two belts? Any advice would be greatly appreciated as I am now into my third week of trying to sort this off square issue. Finally, it's difficult trying to square the X and Y with my machinists square since they are on different levels, any tips? I really enjoy your videos and thank you for putting so much of your time and effort into helping so much with these videos. All the best.

[@SarbarMultimedia]

Hi Katrina Oh dear your machine sounds like a nightmare. Does the model number on the machine happen to be KH****.? The results you are seeing on your work may appear to be from an out of square X axis but with all the other problems you are describing I suspect that is the least of your problems. I will be happy to help you through this distressing situation and you seem to have a good grasp of engineering principles so it should be fairly easy to break the problem into little bits and fix one issue at a time I shall need to see some picyures or video and the only wt we can do that is iff we deal with this off line via email. For obvious reasons I don't publish my email but if you wish to add yours to another comment, I get auto copied to my gmail and will then delete your comment and respond to you. Perhaps you can add the link where you bought your machine? Best wishes Russ

[@jamierogers294]

Thank you for sharing your laser journey in 2016. It's been great to watch your problem solving process and come up with simple tests after they've been solved (like in this video) so that you, and others, can do perform machine healthchecks. I'd love to own a 60W or 70W machine but my current property doesn't allow for that. If I get to that stage though, I'll be so more prepared because of your hard work and perseverence. I hope you and your wide have a great Christmas, Russ.

[@SarbarMultimedia]

Hi Jami Thanks for the appreciation. I hope father Christmas is generous for you this year!!! Seasons greetings Russ

[@paulbritton187]

I had do do the same adjustment on my new Just Add Sharks Blacknose cutter when it was first delivered. It was easier to do than on the Thinklaser though, because the coupling shaft between Y axis is at the front (and less "industrial"in its construction) I cut concentric squares in acrylic and rotated and replaced them to check orthogonality.

[@bassam4545]

hi, i just want to say thank you ! you hove just solved a problem i was living with for over a year now !

[@phunkyphantom619]

Hi Rus, weve jusy carried out the card fold test and measuring corner to corner and depending on where in the bed the cut was made we are between 0-0.8mm out, do you think this may be due to warped honeycomb bed or gantry out of square? Think i could test with a set sqaure instead of the block of acrylic? Or am i chasing a silly amount of perfection? Love the series! Started watching from start to end so i can better understand and fine tune the company laser!

[@SarbarMultimedia]

Hi The answer to your question is a bit vague I am afraid because it depends on how big your machine is and how big your test was. If the test was 2m sqare then this error is a miniscule sqareness errroebut if it was a 200mm square then its significant enough to warrent fixing. However, you may be chasing the wrong problem by re-squaring the gantry. The first test I would recommengd is to put tape over the head hole and do a quick pulse burn with the head at the front cornerrfurthest away from your tube. Move the head to the back corner and repeat the pulse test. If the two marks are coincident within about 1mm then yes, go ahead and fix the sqaureness BUT if the dots are 3 or 4mm apart (typical) it means the beam hits mirror 3 at different positions causing the beam to enter the lenseat different positiond relative to the lens axisc.This could be moving the burn on your material relative to the nozzle and your error not caused by a mechanical squareness issue.. . You may finish up fixing a "Fourth Corner Problem" rather than a squarerness issue.. Best regards Russ

[@yorkshireman17]

Ross, Love your videos. Any chance of downloading some of the Christmas card files. Where did you get the fancy patterns from? Trevor

[@pablocolladoavila3162]

another excellent video mate. the camera mic and lighting really worked well and always in focus. what do you use for recording ?

[@SarbarMultimedia]

Hi Pablo I do have several Panasonic AVCHD and 4K cameras but the favourite for this KZbin work is my HC-X920. I certainly don't need 4K for You Tube . At present I do not have any special microphones I use the 5.1 zoom mic system on the camera. I am in the process of adding a blue tooth mic system but that has gone a bit wrong so far. For a long time I had no special lighting because the camera is so good at sorting it out for itself. However, I have recently installed 6 LED downlighters above each of my machines and they seem to produce a nice even light whether its day or night filming. I try to keep things in the autofocus field but of course I can dump the out of focus shots in editing. Thanks for your comment Seasons greetings Russ

[@typhonni]

Thanks Russ, this video was excactly what i was looking for. you helped a lot. Typhonni

[@kylet1405]

Hello! I have a 60w Chinese Laser, I am having an incredibly difficult time squaring up my machine. Adjusting the X didn't seem to have as much of an effect as it did with your machine. Is there any other common areas to check? I have checked beam alignment, X & Y axis frame are square. Could belt tension have an effect on this? My machine has a 30" X axis and it is off about 3mm over this length. Enough that when I cut square boxes ect. they will not fit together properly. If you have an email where I could discuss this a little more with you, that would be greatly appreciated. The Chinese seller could barely understand what I meant, and of course the manual mentions nothing squaring up the cuts.

[@playlist9389]

I'm wondering - maybe there is a way to adjust squareness only by changing parameters in software whithout moving rails and other hardware? Maybe there is an option in RD works controller?

[@SarbarMultimedia]

Hi Sorry. no such distortion factors available in RDWorks. This whole technology is still very basic. Even the most expensive Epilog /Trotec/Universal machines are based around mechanical perfection. There are camera systems available for component recognition but I am not aware they contain any calibration for geometric errors. Best wishes Russ

[@semperidem2577]

Russ, What size are those linear rails? 15 or 20mm? And are they the same size on both axes? I'm asking because I'm designing my own machine and don't know if I should be using 15 or 20mm blocks and rails. i was thinking of 15mm for the gantry and 20mm for each of the sides. Cheers

[@SarbarMultimedia]

Hi My rails are 15mm. on both X and Y Many machines bigger than mine use 12mm rails . This size is perfectly adequate but personally I would never buy a machine with 12mm rails. The recommended mounting and load bearing is horizontal which is why so many machines have top mounted rails. However I see little point when you have to hang the head in front of the gantry by using a stiff and heavy horizontal mounting plate that puts a cantilever load on the bearing. I favour the front mounted bearing where the head can be solidly attahed to the bearing with very little torque load on the bearing. Take a look at the load ratings on 15mm bearings and even the dynamic loads can be as high as 400kg .. see www.pmi-amt.com/en/products/amt/MSC_M.htm With this overkill 15mm bearings on the side rails will be fine unless your gantry is planned to be more than 800kg!!!!!! Best wishes Russ

[@semperidem2577]

@@SarbarMultimedia Thanks for that Russ. I guess I was thinking of bigger is better with regard to the rails, but that's probably because I'm also in the process of building a CNC Router and you want 'heft' with those to help with rigidity., as I'm sure you're aware ;-) I understand what you're saying about the mounting of the head and the forces exerted on it. I might have considered that as an option but all the 'head' kits I looked for seemed to favour the more traditional top mounting. In the end I opted for the 'E' kit from Cloudray. Just as an aside, I replied to your Lab 192 video requesting a data pack and provided an obfuscated email address but haven't received anything as yet ;-) Keep up the good work, it's much appreciated. Cheers

[@SarbarMultimedia]

@@semperidem2577 Hi Semper I never knowingly ignore a question or comment so I apologize if something has gone adrift. I have checked back and can find no comment or a failed attempt to send a reply to an incorrect guess at your email address. You maybe one of the 5% comments and answers that You Tube sends to a parallel universe. I have even checked my spam box. On. Please send me your disguised email address again and will gladly send the datapack. Best wishes Russ

[@mikenuke]

I own a China blue machine with a table of 70x50cm. So not only my axis are not square and when I fold the test cut paper into half I get 9 millimeters difference between the corner edges. But I also have an X axis that makes an arc almost 1 millimeter upwards in the center! This is a major problem for me, since I come from die making industry and accuracy is more than important! Does any one have any idea where to start?

[@SarbarMultimedia]

Hi Mike You have two separate problems here so you need to fix them one at a time. One is a beam alignment issue and the other is making the axes true to each other. Logically you would try to set the axis square to start with. In this case I would say no because the clue is in the X axis drawing a curved line.. Your immediate reaction will be that something is mechanically bent for the machine to draw such a curved line. I need you to see a short piece of video. Watch this from 5:30 to 6:50 kzbin.info/www/bejne/m4TNf6aBZ9idhNE You can see that the you only need a very small horizontal shift in the position of the beam onto mirror 3 and the beam will not pass through the axis of the lens and will be steered out of line as it passes through the lens. So your first line of investigation must be directed at your X axis beam. It sounds as though you have set that well so that your scorch dots onto the head port (mirror 3)coincide at either end of the machine. Now check what is happening at the center point. I suspect that you will find a small error . Let me know what you find and we can then move on. Best wishes Russ

[@ronpaul2012robust]

you got more gumption than I good sir, I am impressed. I would have sent the machine back. I truly wish I had whatever it is you have running through your veins. I blame it on my A,D,D.

[@SarbarMultimedia]

Hi Ron I think I'm a bit displexic as well, and I blame that on my DAD also. Happy Christmas Russ

[@vaughanza]

Excellent work

[@alexisdamianidis5261]

Machine Redsail X900 with Rdworks It seems that it looses steps. I try to cut a full sheet of hearts Two layers.Firstly cuts inside layer,the little hearts,and secondly cuts outside layer the big heart. I get this result.It seems that one of two layers lost steps in hardware or software- I wish.I measured the two layers on the wood and realised that the second outside layer is precise.But the first inside layer did not start right.It is missind approximately 3mm in y.The strange thing is that it has lost steps only in first layer.Maybe I reduce the travelling speed at the start and between the layers?

[@SarbarMultimedia]

Hi Alexis I have sent you a message so that we can deal with this problem by email Russ

[@marcelocabrera7720]

Hi,I have a 1612 laser 150w Chinese machine and I have problems with X and Y axis cut in angle and I can fix it the difference is 3mm on both side and the laser and motors are in a solid bar, I don't have that any adjust in the X or Y can you help me do you have any other idea ?? Thank you

[@SarbarMultimedia]

Hi Marcelo I didn't fully understand which squareness you were speaking of . I think that the squareness of X and Y axes is what you were trying to describe. If so then look at this video to start with kzbin.info/www/bejne/pKStmGeahdl2qNE We blem. can speak again if this is not the problem Best regards Russ

[@marcelocabrera7720]

when I cut right to left X axes is shift down 3mm and Y shift left to right 3mm

[@SarbarMultimedia]

Hi Marcelo Check out you you tube messages. Regards Russ

[@marcelocabrera7720]

Sorry, I haven't received any messages. Did you send me a message somewhere?

[@SarbarMultimedia]

Hi Marcelo It was a You Tube message. . If you cannot find it , I need your email address to send you some test programs. Click on the orange Sarbar square and a new page will open. go to the address bar and add /about Press enter and another page will open. Top right there is a MESSAGE button that you can press. That will allow you to message me privately with your email address. Russ

[@sergiomercado1905]

How can I send you a picture of my problem?

[@SarbarMultimedia]

Hi Sergio The best way will by email. Add your email to another comment and it will be auto copied to my gmail. After 5 minutes please go back to You Tube and delete your comment . By that time I should have your comment as an email and will write to you. Best wishes Russ

[@SwissplWatches]

really incredible, thank you

[@popierinelt]

hi how to test fire laser on controler?

[@SarbarMultimedia]

Use the max button on the keyboard and set it to 50%. Press the Min button on the keyboard and set that to 50% also. Now press the ZU button and use the arrow keys to highlight laser set There will be 2 choices MANUAL and CONTINUOUS. Make sure it is set to CONTINUOUS. Press enter. You should now bw able to press the PULSE button to fire the laser manually. Hope this helps Best regards Russ

[@neatpleats11]

Fantastic.

[@ingmarm8858]

That's very poor for what I assume is a multi thousand $ machine.

[@SarbarMultimedia]

Hi Ingmar I believe Thinklaser are being very courageous (and maybe very clever?). This is a machine that the normal Joe would not be able to afford as a hobby machine as it is about 4 times what I paid for my China Blue machine. This class of machine would normally be in a small business, an R&D development lab, a school or college. The fact that I could offset a chunk of the cost against a deal to provide training videos, has allowed a renegade engineer such as myself, to pull it apart. As you will know from the rest of my series I like to understand the animal that I am training, and this more sophisticated Chinese dragon still has a few bad habits. That's where I guess Thinklaser have been brave and clever at the same time. They have pulled together good quality parts at a VERY competitive price and the agreed to give me a total free hand to play/use/criticise and video my actions for all to see. They in turn get to find out detail issues that would normally be worked around by their service engineering team but may never be fixed. So what I'm saying is that the normal user of this machine will never see these detail issues because they just call in the service engineer when things are not quite right. A luxury that the likes of you and I cannot afford. In fairness to Thinklaser, I COULD call in their service engineer and the issues WOULD be fixed and you would know nothing. This machine is an upmarket Red Sail clone type of machine and anything I can learn about this type of machine not only helps Thinklaser with improving their machine but also the wide laser community as well. This is a new collaboration and there 's just a few "t" s to be crossed. I hope you can see that your "very poor" initial perception may be based on invalid comparisons with VERY expensive and mature machines that have already gone through this snagging phase. I personally am overjoyed that this machine is not quite perfect, it means I can pick around the edges and find excuses to delve into the engineering of the machine. It also makes good video because many people would not have the courage to rip machines apart as I do.......and explain what and why I'm doing it. Thanks for your comment because I has given me the opportunity to explain some of the hidden background Best regards and seasons greeting Russ

[@ingmarm8858]

I agree about the brave and clever because they have hopefully assumed some things you will find will be embarrassing but it will also improve the product. I'm lucky to be exposed to a lot of very expensive equipment in my work but even at this cheaper end this sort of dimensional error would have had my blood boiling as a paying customer. I think it's a basic thing to expect to be right! On the local good news side my ultra cheap eBay purchase (AU $560 for the pretend 40W CO2) is producing very pretty little acrylic boxes etc for the ladies so pretty happy there :-) All the best for Xmas Russ. Ingmar