RE- Pantheism is Evil

[@ETERNALCYCLES]

Both theists and atheists like to create a strawman version of pantheism without understanding of what most pantheists believe. I do not worship nature, I do respect it and understand we are all part of it.

[@TrenchantAtheist]

@wholethinker By "chaos" I'm referring specifically to the mathematical use of the word, meaning that a system is chaotic when it is extremely sensitive to initial conditions (to the extent that all outcomes are unpredictable), and exhibits features of self-similarity (e.g. fractals, the branching effect of trees and blood vessels, etc.). Think of it as "order among apparent dis-order"

[@TrenchantAtheist]

@natmanprime "Rationality is an inevitable dynamic between two irrationalities" You've said that before, but I'm not quite sure how you mean to say that they are inevitable. The statement seems to evoke the principles of Chaos Theory, but not all systems are chaotic (i.e. when combined, two random phenomena will still produce random outputs, not order). Also, whether "order" is to be considered simple or complex is dependent on the scope of your perceptual focus and therefore relative.

[@StephenDeagle]

Considering your background in communication and interest in the works of McLuhan, it's pretty appropriate that your metaphysics pertain to that of a broadening of the experiential. While I'd warn against seeing this truth you've harvested as deserving of any capitals, I also deeply appreciate your point of view. For someone aiming to appreciate the gift quality of life while also consciously avoiding the mysticism so often dragging behind, it's like catching sight of the sun on a cloudy day.

[@SocialPromotionTips]

Energy cannot be created or destroyed, it only changes form. Scientifically there can be nothing else but everything. Eternal energy is worthy of the word God.

[@TrenchantAtheist]

@natmanprime Ah, ok. I wasn't referring to any chaotic system in particular, just trying to understand the context of your statement by comparing it to the only kind of mathematics that seemed relevant :)

[@notonewhit]

Can we realize for an instant what a cross-section of all existence at a definite point of time would be? While I talk and the flies buzz, a sea gull catches a fish at the mouth of the Amazon, a tree falls in the Adirondack wilderness, a man sneezes in Germany, a horse dies in Tartary, and twins are born in France. What does that mean? Does the contemporaneity of these events with each other and with a million more as disjointed as they form a rational bond between them, and unite them (con't)

[@CHistrue]

The original video that this is in response to seems to have mistaken the Pantheist position. Nature is not to be reverenced because she gives us positive emotions. She is to reverenced because she being Other is also ourselves. Within that tapestry is a lot of pain and suffering, which returns reverence to its ancient origins and not modern day easy believism.

[@xephyr1000]

I'm a Scientific Pantheist. I tend to avoid even the metaphorical use of the word "god", but I agree fairy closely to the manifesto of the World Pantheist Movement (WPM). As for consciousness, I use this saying, "In as much as I am conscious the universe is conscious, and through me the universe becomes aware of itself"

[@pfarabee]

I once had an argument with someone who was labeling themselves a Taoist. They had a very elaborate description of what the correct path to enlightenment was.. I told them that naming the Way was the first step to holy war, because it's like irrelevant specks of dust arguing with each other, each convinced that their description of the infinite is correct. In reality, any description of the infinite is, by definition, incorrect.. the infinite is indescribable, and without properties.

[@rosewood9874]

Ah, you are so right! When reverence and awe arise spontaneously from our observation of the world, why should that be quelled? While there can be mistakes when someone tells you their version of why nature is holy, there can be no mistake when an observation of the world rivets you to the earth and tells you that all ground is holy. Nature has given you everything you can observe and must have to continue your existence. If there is no sense of awe it is simply that you have taken it for granted and somehow see yourself as separate from it. How does it serve a mechanical, accidental evolution to keep complicating it’s patterns with fractal beauty? How is it possible to ignore desire itself as a force when without it, none of us would be here? “The world has made those things possible”. Yes! From the continuing patterns of evolution, wonder, awe and appreciation have arisen and are not false ideals that do not serve. Even trees have desires and goals. It may seem strange to acknowledge something like that, but fruit is designed to carry the seed away from the shade of the parent tree, being round it will roll away. The fruit is full of sugars that the roots could have used, but a sacrifice is made by the plant in order to surround its genetic material with something appealing, that it would be carried by animals to a suitable location. So plants do have goals. Corn sends out chemical signals when attacked by the corn borer so that parasitic wasps will respond and attack the corn borers. These chemical signals are not sent when the plant is simply cut down. So a different kind of intelligence and desire than we are used to, but it’s there, permeating all these levels.

[@pfarabee]

The moment we label something worth reverence (holy) is the moment we label the "other" as evil/unholy. It is dangerous to get into reverence of anything, frankly. As an example, if we label the universe itself as holy, and value reverence and respect for its perceived beauty, then lack of that reverence, and reveling in the ugly aspects (ala Gary) becomes defacto evil... the "unholy" to be opposed Just live life, be happy to be alive and try to enjoy it, because eventually it will end.

[@mrmarvellous5378]

Welcome to Reality. I once asked a man I knew who was brought up in Muslim Nation what he thought about God and he to my utter surprise said that Nature is God. That was around 1995 and so my journey into this belief began and has changed my life in many ways health, wealth and a sense of internal peace.

[@TheWillwillwill]

@professoranton You mentioned that thought is a small part of life/reality... That is debateable. A hermeticist would say that that reality is a product of the mental, thought or consciousness. Wave particle duality, time dialation, relativity and quantum entanglement seem to indicate that perspectice of individual consciousness play a role in what we perceive in reality.

[@robertarmitage6996]

Pantheism or the Cosmic as God can be seen as extensive to include all, but if the Cosmic is also seen as intensive, as the mystics experience it, then it has revalatory power.

[@wholethinker]

@rhocando: No harm in letting our believes "to overtake our rational thoughts": these "rational" thoughts are derivatives of our believes.

[@rhocando]

I just single handedly destroyed a friendship over "religious" views. I always thought of myself as a "live and let live" person. Wow. I'm sorry to say I don't live that philosophy as much as I wish I could. I think religion, no matter what kind of religion (even non-religion) is such a passionate and emotional thing that sometimes we all allow our beliefs to over take our rational thoughts and sense of good human behavior and we become the very thing we hate. *ugh* I'm learning.

[@discoverednotcreated]

Speechless. My favorite channel.

[@notonewhit]

into anything that means for us a world? Yet just such a collateral contemporaneity, and nothing else, is the real order of the world. It is an order with which we have nothing to do but to get away from it as fast as possible. As I said, we break it: we break it into histories, and we break it into arts, and we break it into sciences; and then we begin to feel at home. (89 William James )

[@TheWillwillwill]

You is this guy, this video is debating. The guy is not worth debating.

[@rhocando]

@wholethinker I guess I was shocked by just how passionate I am about my own way of thinking. I didn't think I cared about it as much as I do especially when I absolutely believe no one really knows diddly squat about it including myself. :)

[@DonQuixotedeKaw]

Beautiful! Thank you Cory. Fred has somehow got it into his head, that I am some sort of wacked out panENtheist, and is painting this projection onto me. For me Pantheist is merely a label of convenience, a (supposedly) easy statement of non-absolutism, as an atheist. Returning to my own rede, I must recall that; "Before they are ready, to others your fact, is but a lie."

[@wholethinker]

@TrenchantAtheist: How do you define chaotic system?

[@georgemoncayo8313]

a book called the stones cry out by Randall Price shows alot of archaeology that supports the Bible and the Bible address's Pantheism in Romans chapter 1.

[@feedtherich]

Pantheism is redundant in believing the universe is somehow a god in addition to being just a physical universe. There is point to that unless you want to start praying or thinking there is a spiritual realm that defies physics. Such as this 'life force' you describe...why does there have to be some magical process instead of just plain physics?

[@Censeo]

Panexperientialism is not simplistic. It is a model that accounts for the obvious dualism in our universe without invoking gods or souls. The theory is that all essence is relational. It's not turtles all the way down, but that is the only way we can understand the world philosophically in a more accurate sense. Cause we can't model the reasons for the cosmos getting more complex through time, neither why the physical or mental layers arise through time. It certainly isn't any yearning I think.

[@andrewzot]

"this is a quick response video..." 20 minutes later

[@wholethinker]

@labrat882 From a cockroach's point of view they really suffer, and we, humans, are just a part of soulless nature. Only some of them attribute the abilities to reason and converse to non-living things, animals, and even humans (cockroachmorphism). People not only say, they believe we are the pinnacle of evolution, which I consider to be a big mistake. But all children make this mistake when just get self-conscious - it is comforting.

[@Graymoths]

I agree, the use of the word "God" in pantheism is misleading. It conjures up a misconception in people that are unfamiliar with it as a belief or reverence for a deity that is supposedly the universe. BS. As a pantheist myself, I believe that pantheism at its fundamentals is in alignment with the endeavours of science.

[@Geertpieter]

I think self relation is the result of being able to formulate questions to one self, so the development of language would be required to reflect, if u can't formulate something in words it's very hard, althougt when Albert Einstein thougt up the theorie of relativity he did it mainly by imagining the motion of objects, so maybe it is posible to think in abstracts in sted of words (but i don't believe it) Furthermore you would need self recognition, and that we also see in chimps...

[@yoseph89]

God, Nature, Reality, The Universe, The Multiverse, The Conscious/Unconscious - NONE OF THEM ARE OMNIPOTENT

[@lolingattheism]

Ok, thanks again. I always think I need a joint after listening you or Fred ;)

[@2bsirius]

Thanks for making sense!

[@2ruthfox82]

i really enjoyed this one, thank you for sharing all you do = )

[@erinbailey6665]

thank you for all of this. A thought i had while you described the levels of conscience, from a plant's to human's understanding of the world. i just have to wonder, if we can mediate with and understand our existence that much more than a plant, just imagine the level of mediation the earth has.

[@wogaff]

thank you for that quote

[@imyouandurme]

That's an excellent point!

[@CoreyAnton]

Thanks. Best to you. Please help others find my videos.

[@georgemoncayo8313]

Jesus said "So it will be at the end of the age,the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,and will throw them into the furnace of fire,in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."Matthew 13:49-50.Jesus also said "You are my friends if you do what I command you." John 15:14. Jesus taught that the only way to be saved is to choose him as your Lord and Master, repent and believe that he died for the sins of his people on the cross see John 14:6.

[@stefantherainbowphoenix]

Jesus said "You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell." Matthew 5:27-30 Jesus also said "Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a person's enemies will be those of his own household. Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it." Matthew 10:34-39 What a "nice" guy. Jesus also said "Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters." Matthew 12:30 Obi-Wan Kenobi: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes."

[@irreduciblemultiplicity5312]

Pantheism is Another Way Of Saying Incidentalism, and Incidentalism is Simply Another Way Of Saying Nihilism

[@TheGrammarOfDesign]

@Egoismus Sophimesmus Well, I'd say Wittgentaoism Hyperpantheism isn't nihilism, whereof, the present universe is being projected from a model from the prior incarnation of our universe as part of an eternal regress of universes, solution rather than the infinite regress of god dominoes problem. “The meaning of the world must lie outside the world. In the world everything is as it is, and everything happens as it does happen: in it no value exists - and if it did exist, it would have no value. If there is any value that does have value, it must lie outside the whole sphere of what happens and is the case. For all that happens and is the case is accidental. What makes it all non accidental cannot [reside] in the world, for if it did, this would again be something accidental. It must [reside] outside the [present] world. The solution of the riddle of life in space and time lies outside space and time. (It is certainly not the solution of any problems of natural science that is required).” -- Ludwig Wittgenstein “[T]he paradox is that no matter how skillfully this law paints reality, it can never produce a picture that contains everything, because it always fails to take itself into account.” -- Vlatko Vedral “The whole modern conception of the world is founded on the illusion that the so-called laws of nature are the explanations of natural phenomena. Thus people today stop at the laws of nature, treating them as something inviolable, just as God and Fate were treated in past ages. And in fact both were right and both wrong; though the view of the ancients is clearer insofar as they have an acknowledged terminus, while the modern system tries to make it look as if Everything[the universe] were explained” -- Ludwig Wittgenstein

[@wogaff]

best 20 mins ever spent though

[@MikeFaJohn]

I am a pantheist but at the same time I do not believe in the word God (with a capital G) The universe is alive and thriving. It is life and death incarnate. It is vastness beyond our imagination and it is us. What could be more spiritual than that? I do not worship the universe but I respect and love it and I am humble before it. I consider myself a Pantheist. But I do not consider it my religion.

[@sidewaysfcs0718]

or God is worthy of the name Energy ;) see what i did there....i think the emphasis on the word god throws people off ...since the word has a certain meaning to theists and atheists alike ....people each have their own unique view on the universe and what could be called god (if it's the case) , so putting labels on beliefs doesn't really help alot, since there will always be someone who can fit in between 2 labels like naturalistic pantheist and atheist

[@TheColaGoodfellow]

If God is truth... isn't it true that the universe exists? Doesn't that make the universe a part of truth? Any real Christian holds to pantheistic or panentheistic christianity.

[@jamesperkins2552]

Nature makes God's existence obvious to me. The problem I have In the idea that everything is God is that it makes self evident realities of right and wrong a lie. We all know what is right, and we all know what is wrong. If God is everything and embodies both good and evil then he bas given us false intuitions of what the Universe should be. Not only that but it paints an incredibly dark picture of loneliness and pointlessness. All kindness is self serving vanity and ultimately we are alone. If God distributed himself throughout all the thinking feeling beings in the universe because suffering and being confused is somehow better then whatever we where before, then what are we to hope for? If God is everything including child rapists then we have the same chance of suffering for eternity as achieving some sort of ultimate victory. All of our bone deep understanding of goodness and hope are falsehoods and our relationships are lies because ultimately we are all the same being. Go is good and the pantheistic image of God is evil.

[@TrenchantAtheist]

@natmanprime lol ;)

[@oscarmarin1995]

Why should anyone believe that garbage?

[@saedaaal4901]

niramo18 you're a pretty shitty human