[REAL ATC] LUFTHANSA A350 - "FUEL LOW SITUATION" in Boston - "We have to declare Emergency"

A busy day with bad weather in the approach area and some missed approaches due to tight spacing on final... In the end, everything went well!

[@brocanova]

"We are able ANY approach" - Lufthansa rocks!

[@bodybuilding4lifebab]

jesuswasahovercraft what does that mean?

[@wickedpawn5437]

Imagine yourself after 9 hours of flying, then on a low fuel situation, and then just barely spotting the runway at minimums. This crew deserved their salary with this flight.

[@philhiggins4922]

WickedPawn U.K. o. O. Value gg lmo, o. Ou

[@JimWalsh-rl5dj]

It is what they are paid to do!

[@Atarian6502]

Yes, 9 hours of "flying" :)

[@LufthansaDAIGO]

One of the Flight attendants can jerk off their dick later in the hotel room so they can relax.

[@captaindasbomb6862]

should have carried more fuel. 9 hrs is not that long for a A359

[@Pilot.0101]

Don't F with Lufthansa, those pilots know their stuff and can/will land on anything when necessary. "We only have a helipad available!" LH pilot: "we'll take it!" 😂👍

[@josmclove4426]

🤣🤣

[@F4EHokie]

I flew fighter aircraft with the USAF in Germany for three years, and the ATC controllers there were most gracious and very understandable. Everywhere we went within NATO, with the exception of France, ATC was top notch. Come to find out, most of the British controllers at the time ('75 - '78) were former British fighter pilots!

[@antondepechy5808]

What was the problem in france?

[@kevinbaird7277]

@@antondepechy5808 The French.

[@til159]

Nobody in Europe likes france

[@bobbypaluga4346]

My money is always on Lufthansa Pilots despite the mess they made of the Germanwings suicidal pilot situation. Lufthansa and the German Air Force have sizable operations at Goodyear and Luke Field on the west side of the Phoenix area, I’ve only heard great things said about their people. I like the way LH trains a guy off the street that meets their requirements vs how a US citizen would seek to become a line pilot with a US carrier after paying for his or her own training. Owing $180,000-$200,000 or more you link up with a contract carrier to earn $20 to $30K a year. LH puts you in a dorm and you start your single engine training on their dime or Euro. At Goodyear you can fly everyday, with only an extremely rare gulley washer or dust storm to keep you out of the air.

[@madrockxvx]

6:20 the [...] is a "tall vessel". Aircraft landing over the bay in Boston sometimes have trouble with ILS signal due to ships blocking the signal. At 7:05 it's "tall ship".

[@martijnm4905]

A lot of comments on ATC English... my experience is on Northern East coast, English is relatively understandable for someone who has some practice. This audio, with a few exceptions, not necessarily due to controller’s speaking, makes sense... when going further south, it becomes worse and worse, when reaching Texas, one got the impression talking to a bunch of cowboys running on their horses thru wind, shooting their Colt with one hand ans a lasso in the other to catch the plane landing... And in the mean time tell people what to do in worst slang... Don’t forget, in international air traffic a good part of pilots are not native English speakers and even less Texan English speakers... this LH pilot did master the language perfectly and probably has long experience in the area and knows a bit about local customs and expressions. And is stress resistant... don’t forget he has left his house 12-14 hours before and has almost as much working hours behind him... so is pretty tired and just wants one single thing... put his plane on the ground and run to the shower in his hotel room. But instead is facing this shit and then, once on the ground, will be be handed over to US immigration treatment that is just designed to make visitors feel like shit while doing a job that contributes to make America great again...But just use your imagination and put à Chinese, Russian or so there... the plane might not make due to communication mishaps... And LH is focused on his approach and communication, but these exchanges are followed by other traffic in the sky, that are listening with one ear to get a full sense of what’s happening around, they might miss half due to poor speech... And then fuel... airlines don’t typically cross the ocean to carry excess fuel... I guess most of us know that it would be an expensive deal... the heavier the plane the more fuel it burns, to a point eventually with loading more fuel, consumption is so high it’ll reach destination with even less... this is all calculated including weather, safety margins and possible alternate airports to divert to in emergency. In this case this would have probably definitely been considered if running further out of control at BOS.

[@jbond119]

tall vessel in the approach area

[@LAGoodz]

The speech comprehension of these controllers is awful, so rushed and slack. Says a lot when you can understand the Lufthansa pilot better than an English speaking controller.

[@adennis200]

Anthony 1976 well you need to take into account that it's American English and as it's used to be spoken in that way pilots need to adapt not the way around. But I agree, American English is not the most pleasant listen to

[@LAGoodz]

* * Thanks, I’m not US bashing. Just in this situation. It’s not good either they say “descend TO xxxx” or “turn TO xxx”. “TO” is a dangerous word to use a preposition to numbers.

[@cymbala6208]

Agree totally. I have been wondering a lot (since I have been listening to ATC on youtube) why for heaven's sake all this information is passed on via radio... we're living in times of smartphones, computers etc. and parts of all this information is (as much as I know) is only passed on over radio. Luckily it ususally works quite well. Btw - does anybody know what atc would do in case of strong solar flares? I have heard that from time to time very strong solar flares occur and can then disturb electromagnetical fields (which I guess might be a disaster for atc)?

[@OldSchool-px1xk]

I do agree with Anthony 1976 regarding the slacky pronunciation, but we have to give them they speak endlessly for hours and then you tend to mumble. I didn't feel like the German pilots had any difficulties in understanding Boston Control but rather they were annoyed how they let them circle over Boston. Any aircraft coming in from the Atlantic is low on fuel. That much BOS had to take into consideration.

[@OldSchool-px1xk]

Cymbala, oral instruction is transparent and the readback confirms understanding

[@Filmitis]

I understand what some posters are saying about the Boston ATC, Anthony 1976 in particular. And I understand that any human repeating the same words over & over again every day will fall into a habit of delivering them quicker and therefore risking mis-pronunciation leading to reduced comprehension by the listener. It's so easy to have a significant misunderstanding. This is fine in most jobs but in the world of ATC it is totally unacceptable. If a catastrophe occurred as result how would the controller feel. The crew would be blameless. and, I'm sure the controllers "Fall into the habit" scenario would not be accepted as a defence in a law court. The industry should address this as a serious issue to be dealt with. Maybe it should be an FAA requirement that controllers' ATC conversations be monitored periodically to identify anyone who needed the services of a voice coach and/or speech therapist.

[@jancovanderwesthuizen8070]

This controller is speaking horribly fast and almost slurred. You shouldn't even talk to American pilots like that, let alone anyone else

[@scotty523]

Seems like BOS needs to do better when it comes to sequencing these transatlantic heavy jets for final. This happened before with a NAX 787, except BOS wanted them slower than what the crews could accept, broke off approach then took forever to get them back in.

[@Swaggerlot]

It's not just Boston Scott.

[@DaWolf805]

I was a passenger on a Norwegian 787 coming into Boston last week and it was insane. Easily the hairiest approach I've ever been a part of (and I flew on a River Visual into DCA during a storm). We would hold speed and altitude for long periods and then descend and cut speed at the same time. I've never seen the spoilers out so many times during an approach, and never before while on final with full flaps out. Somehow we avoided going around though.

[@Swaggerlot]

The issue here was as much ATC (if not more) than the weather.

[@DaWolf805]

Whatever the deal was last week wasn't weather either. There was a light mist on approach but that did not appear to be a factor as we weren't vectored around anything.

[@rafaelleite1163]

What an 'almost' mess! Glad everything went well after all.

[@jasonpb27]

"Join from the other side" what on earth does that mean

[@BobbyGeneric145]

jasonpb27 it means "I am going to vector you across the localizer and you will intercept from the opposite side. If Im flying and being vectored, when I notice Im going through the localizer my first assumption is that they forgot about me. Its nice to know the game plan

[@jordano1005]

still not using proper terminology, definitely making it hard especially for a potential non native english speaker

[@joaoleitao3320]

Once again lack of proper Atc US is terrible especially JFK!

[@fhuber7507]

I wouldn't say improper terminology... i'd say just plain bad planning for spacing. He's using a zig zag across the localizer to delay the airplane by a few seconds, complicating the approach.

[@rongates478]

jasonpb27 .nothing

[@tomriley5790]

Good work really - unavoidable change in the ils condition, understandibly Lufthansa couldn't accept it (although the ATC guy did his best) vectored him around for another go. Then barely spotting the runway at minimums on a borderline low fuel situation after 9 hours flying - earning their pay!

[@skyking0475]

Great job. been there done that

[@shreddder999]

That controller was barely comprehensible both times he said thru the localizer. He should have reworded it the second time, as well. Also seems like they need to get those ships out of there.

[@sfctw1]

When your job is to chat with people from all over the world, you'd expect a more competent and better spoken ATC

[@fabiano.2550]

Did the Lufthansa pilot want to get the phone number of the Controller?

[@ATCpilot]

Fabian O. Yep

[@fabiano.2550]

ATCpilot ok thanks ;)

[@johanjacobs9240]

Given and accepting an RNAV approach is very risky in low visual conditions. And to top it all, it was a low fuel situation. What would happen if they could not spot the runway at minimums? Do aother go-around on fumes?

[@tomriley5790]

Go around and divert....they were never on emergency fuel.

[@Neil7026]

This situation could have turned out to be like that Avianca flight where the engines flamed out

[@shreddder999]

That was a whole nuther story. Totally the flight crew's fault for using MINIMUM FUEL which is not an emergency.

[@yesidid]

LH424- Put it in Reverse- affirmative - LH424----- Now Welcome to the Twilight Zone

[@segredosdotiosam9989]

9:23 . He said Barely visible not rarely which makes no sense.

[@carlyoungblood7084]

It is very very obvious it was a mistake in the subtitle typing.

[@daviedmond4639]

i cant even imagine the horror id face if i had to know wtf is being said, this is a 94% of the time withALL ATC DIALOGUE TYPE IF SITUATION.....

[@ATCpilot]

Training only!

[@jonathanguthrie9368]

Nearly all of the communications you hear is very formulaic, and you usually don't have to hear the precise words to understand what the other guy is saying. Part of flight training is learning what the controllers are going to say and when so that you know and can correctly interpret what you've been told.

[@OFFICIAL_VIDEO_AWARDS]

British pilots always laugh at American controllers for yelling out unrecognisable jargon. Say this as fast as possible: Speedbird 294 heavy squawk 3252 join Victor onto Zulu cross 32 short of hotel ...... Ugh cross hotel lineup 7 for immediate fly 090 220 restricted to 5000 winds 13 at 313 cleared for immediate takeoff traffic is on 13 mile final.

[@fox-punisher-uneasy97861]

How do you get such clear ATC and pilot audio? What program do you use?

[@ATCpilot]

FPSPuppeR LiveATC.net

[@fox-punisher-uneasy97861]

+ATCLive are you using it on PC? When I use it on my phone it sounds very bad and staticky on all frequencies.

[@fox-punisher-uneasy97861]

I tried it on my PC just now and it still was kinda staticky. It never sounded as clear as it did in this video.

[@AureliusR]

@@fox-punisher-uneasy97861 It completely depends on the volunteer providing the feed from their radio. If they are near the airport it will good quality, if they are further out or there is terrain in the way it will be a weaker feed. Has absolutely nothing to do with your PC/phone in 99% of cases.

[@mrkhan2983]

so much of work load and stress

[@toyot034]

Professional Lufthansa pilots. Shame about the ATC rushed and garbled instructions. Accident waiting to happen.

[@MrLOLametro]

As a controller, you should never say "reduce speed *TO* 190". It could be misunderstood as 2190, for example.

[@tonejames9272]

LOLametro what does 2190 signify?

[@kina5146]

Unless you're flying the SR-71, I don't think that's the issue. What could be an issue might be mistaking it as '290' or '210' if part of it is garbled.

[@MrLOLametro]

Comrade Saucy Fellow that’s what I meant.

[@aerbus]

Its very difficult, if youre not a native English speaker and the US ATC controllers already have a terribly fast and unclear pronunciation...

[@jancovanderwesthuizen8070]

BMWTurbo Fan That's why Pilots need good English skills

[@chaki83]

looks lıke they busted mınss :))

[@HEDGE1011]

chaki83 Based on?

[@benhur563]

Is this atc'ing compliant to rules and regulations and professional good practices ? Or just plain messy s**t ?

[@snowshoe3274]

pretty messy with that last minute switch from ILS to LOC

[@151bar151]

Avianca almost happened again

[@dathrilla]

Can someone kindly explain why RNAV was used instead ILS?

[@ATCpilot]

Not 100% sure, but it looks like the ships are crossing the final approach path and might disturb the ILS signal because their route crosses the ILS critical area. An RNAV is independet of ground emitted signals.

[@nevilbounds5762]

Very poor RT from Boston ATC. It's not CB radio guys!

[@deeanna8448]

I'm still learning to interpret ATC/Pilot interactions. Can someone please explain what happened here? ATC mucked around with getting this plane down until they almost ran out of fuel? Why?

[@Swaggerlot]

There was an obvious lack of any form of modern air traffic management. The Lufthansa did not almost run out of fuel, just that due to the displayed incompetence of the FAA controllers, he was placed in a low fuel state. Sad fact is that even if they ever privatize US ATC it will get no better.

[@deeanna8448]

Swaggerlot thank you.

[@dylan4526]

the co-Pilot on that flight was, ulrichbeinert... that`s his Instagram, go follow him hes an a380 with some great stories.

[@ATCpilot]

Dylan Theakston Nope, different aircraft, different airport, different flight, different copilot. Check out his channel. You are referring to LH400 in JFK.

[@christopherjones7149]

Sloppy radio work from ATC!

[@chocolatetownforever7537]

Why do they use the term "heavy" when they ident? Ive heard that a bunch by planes.

[@ATCpilot]

To make sure everyone involved knows he is a heavy because that requires enlarged wake turbulence separation ;)

[@chocolatetownforever7537]

@@ATCpilot Thank you very much for the explanation.

[@florianmeier3186]

@@chocolatetownforever7537 There are several such categories: "Heavy" are most of the biggest jets >136t like A350, B777, B747, while above there is just "super" for A380 and Antonow and below medium and light see www.skybrary.aero/index.php/ICAO_Wake_Turbulence_Category

[@6teezkid]

Should have declared emergency a lot earlier. Go straight in.

[@mikkeya3808]

Yeah...reducing speed to mach 2....omg

[@virginiaviola5097]

I’ve no idea how Lufthansa understood a single thing that ATC said...I’m a native English speaker, with the words up on the screen, and I still couldn’t follow him. It was just garble..really poor show.

[@Digital111]

7:18 LH424 declaring a Karen situation

[@x1achilles99]

Gosh, you have to be a real aviation geek to be into this "video." I watched/listened to the whole thing. Was waiting for something interesting to happen. Never did.

[@AureliusR]

Then why the hell did you click on it?

[@sushi777300]

When you fly to the US you want Americans in the cockpit as they're the only ones who are really used to the very sloppy US ATC situation. It's shocking how little they seem to understand that clear phrasing and unambiguous terminology are key elements for safe operations

[@vojislavmarkovic505]

the next crash is round the corner

[@Boodieman72]

I don't know why people are saying they don't understand the Boston ATC, I understood it perfectly.

[@lockergr]

Boodieman72 It's not that most Americans can't understand it it's that it's too fast and run together with poor pronunciation to be appropriate for international flight crews. I get that Boston is a busy airport and being an air traffic controller there cannot be an easy job by any means, but I do agree with the other posters saying they need to consider who they put on handling international flights.

[@ZeroSpawn]

Try flying a A350 with out a youtube screen and write all this information down.

[@HEDGE1011]

Boodieman72 I'm no fan of flying in and out of BOS, but I also had no issues understanding what was said here. BOS has a terrible airport configuration and some oddball things (tall ships in the harbor, for instance) but given how busy they are they make do with what they've got. Still I like to avoid it when I can.

[@rikjanssens8971]

Such a disrespectful and unprofessional ATC towards the LH pilots.

[@punchoo]

I understood the ATC clearly and I am not even from the states. ATC is really helpful in the US. The best place to fly.

[@graemewilliams1308]

Fixed reserve + holding fuel+ contingency+ variable+ 1000lbs for mum & the kids = no problems. Too bad airline management knows nothing about this.

[@HEDGE1011]

Graeme Williams How long do you think 1,000 pounds is going to buy you in an A-350 that's partially configured at low altitude?

[@graemewilliams1308]

You tell me.

[@cruisinguy6024]

I think it burns in the range of 12,000 to 14,000 lbs an hour. 1,000 lbs extra fuel is nothing for a jet of this size. Of course no airline wants to lug around more fuel than is necessary with the exception of tankering when that makes financial sense

[@graemewilliams1308]

They are fuel tanks, not air tanks, fill her up & we'll dump what we don't need.

[@milesaharrison]

Dump what we don't need? You mean fill them up to full (probably could take another 20T that day) and just dump it before landing?

[@hamentaschen]

THUMBS DOWN for stealing the "[REAL ATC]" look from VASAviation. He's been using that style for years and you are nothing more than a thief trying to build a channel on his hard work. Not Cool!

[@ATCpilot]

Black Dog No intention to steel something here. I know two friends who were on board this flight. It was not on VASAviations channel (who I subscribe and love what he is doing - far more than a youtube channel, its more like an increase in flight safety since everybody can learn from others mistakes..). I was listening to liveATC with those friends as they asked me why they performed two go arounds. I just want to share that story... Check out my channel or my old channel EDDGpilot. All videos about aviation, not a single one like this. I am not trying to build a similar channel like somebody else did... Thanks for your comment, appreciate your loyalty to VASAviation and can understand your concern anyway ;)

[@acrodrigues1]

VASAviation is a copycat himself it happened many times with H89SA

[@nynphose]

come on guys, go outside and enjoy the fresh air, put down your joysticks and simulators and get some real lives.

[@victorgrasscourt3382]

Shocking display by Boston ATC. The Lufthansa pilots were so cool and professional. How much fuel do the Boston controllers think jets carry for all that vectoring? No wonder the Lufthansa Captain asked for a telephone number to complain.

[@ATCpilot]

And cost efficiency rather than safety

[@wiedehopf9068]

he should have fuel to divert but probably committed to that airport already despite the weather (strange fuel planning if he really would've needed to declare after that approach) ATCpilot would you mind including the date in the video description, i want to check for how long they got vectors.

[@nineac]

I think in this situation it was not poor planing on fuel reserve. In many occasions planes coming from Europe have to land in Bangor, ME to refuel because of the strong headwinds. Considering there was system around Boston, it could be that LH424 already burned more then anticipated fuel.

[@terryofford4977]

Rightly so too, Victor Grasscourt, any commercial Pilot would have every reason to complain. Shocking instructions on the part of the Boston Controller.

[@luciai3840]

Victor Grasscourt nmnn

[@lorenzopilotto7796]

ATC's in the US do not realize (most of them) that not all the pilots are native english speakers, use phraseology, It has a purpose.

[@as-guardianangel9360]

Lorenzo Pilotto Yet most pilots should

[@donalfinn4205]

Listening to this ATC clown makes me wonder if a lot of US controllers have any idea at all how hard it is to understand what they are saying? I have been listening to them for a long time and just have no idea why this problem is not addressed. US pilots might be able to understand this drawl but for foreign pilots it is very difficult. Hats off to the Lufthansa crew.

[@PorscheGTRSWeissach]

Cool Lufthansa Pilot! ;-)

[@fredwheeler7433]

ATC Controllers rapid fire monotone-style speech delivery is a recipe for an air disaster.

[@mw01720]

The LH pilots speak very good English, almost sounds native. Props to them for putting in the effort to learn English so well.

[@sebastianvettel3848]

In Germany we have to learn English starting at 2th grade.

[@indahooddererste]

ja aber das ist einer von 2 piloten der vernünftiges englisch spricht und nicht dieses verkrüppelte denglish

[@ZBTEproductions]

Max W In fairness, Germany, along with most of Scandanavia, are famous for how well their population speaks English.

[@qkc]

Genau

[@E9X330]

@@ZBTEproductions Sometimes hahahaha

[@moriatyalpha]

a number i can call == i need to speak to the manager

[@mikemassino]

That's what I was thinking

[@laggeryt7558]

It's sensible, the problems need to be addressed, but you can't clog up radio with stuff that can't be changed at the moment. Okay, the number is clogging up the radio, too. But probably not as much as an entire discussion. :)

[@Swaggerlot]

I wouldn't have a clue as to what 'join from the other side' was and I've near forty years experience as a pilot and ATC. The FAA needs to sort out their guys to deal with an international clientele. I've worked with their product in the past outside the USA and there is a lot to be desired. I stopped listening at 3:39, its just too embarrassing for anyone that's been in the industry. Poor fucking Lufthansa, he had the patience of god.

[@BobbyGeneric145]

Swaggerlot its very common phraseology... I hear it weekly. What I found most shocking was the LOCALIZER approach clearance, at the last minute. Thats something that needs to be fully briefed, loaded, etc. They were expecting to do an ILS and then at the last minute are cleared for the Loc 4r. Disgusting.

[@Swaggerlot]

I'm guessing that you are in the US, as I haven't ever heard the term used as it was in that video. From the LH reply, he was confused as well.

[@HEDGE1011]

thefactorypilot145 You know that BOS can't do ILS to minimums with a large ship in the harbor off the end of that runway, correct? This is something the controllers have to dynamically adjust for and they may not get a head's up. I think BOS is a mess and I've flown there a bunch, but if you can't accept an approach or aren't ready for one you say "unable". "Disgusting" it is not; the controller would prefer the ships to stay out of the way too but he plays the hand he's dealt.

[@BobbyGeneric145]

HEDGE1011 I totally agree with accepting the approach. Honestly if its the end of a long day, I could miss the fact that he said LOC instead of ILS due to fatigue! I know we have "tall ships" numbersbut I've never had to use em... I'd think that a blanket broadcast would be made over the frequency saying something like "tall ships in the channel, ils 4 currently ots, loc4 is now being used".

[@HEDGE1011]

thefactorypilot145 I'm not defending BOS I'm just a realist about their constraints. If they have the notice you might see it on the ATIS, but you might not. Like I said, I'm no fan of BOS and try to avoid it when possible, but while I may not like the operation there, the airport configuration is terrible for ATC (and pilots) to deal with. At the end of the day the controller will strive to give a legal approach clearance, and if pilots aren't able or ready for it they have to decline. I sincerely appreciate your contribution to this dialogue. Fly safe!

[@JJ37_]

6:55 "we're able to do *any* approach" the moment Lufthansa gets angry because of that messy ATC controller xD

[@Michael0697]

ATC: *for the millionth time* "Lufthansa, heading 1-" Lufthansa: "-How about you vector me ONTO a runway before I run out of fuel you absolute idiot"

[@FBWFTW]

I saw this happen. The Lufty had a jetBlue hot on his heels AND he appeared to be lined up for 4L when he was on the go.

[@nzkiwi7745]

I fly large aircraft all over the world. FAA ATC is the worst in terms of being Non ICAO in phraseology & speaking too quickly to foreign carriers.

[@N1120A]

FAA ATC also handle the most traffic, the most varied traffic and provide the best service. Also, assuming Lufthansa can handle the radios isn't a stretch - their pilots all speak very good English and the vast, vast majority are actually trained in the US.

[@hupfer7047]

Proof for Lufthansa pilots training in the US is that their flight school is in Arizona.

[@ryanmatthew511]

There was no emergency declared. LH424 heavy simply stated Fuel low and they may have to declare an emergency. That is WAY different

[@marcs990]

O wouldn’t normally float towards Lufthansa’s defence, but in this situation they handled a shocking situation caused by a very poor controller extremely well. I hope their bosses bought them a couple of steins when they got home as they deserved it. Boston beer is crap anyhow.

[@jjaus]

SHAMBOLIC!

[@CaptainStevenMarkovich]

Nice👍 subscribed

[@jurijsshramkovs3820]

That really hard situation... busy airport...

[@turbofanlover]

Big respect to both the ATC and those Lufty pilots. Definitely earning their pay. :)

[@Michael0697]

In my honest opinion, ATC failed big time here. Slurred and quickened speech, not clear what they're saying, and a non-native is doing a better job. Furthermore, and more importantly, they're vectoring a plane up to the point it's running on fumes, no wonder he asked for a number to complain.

[@gilmarriner3011]

Controller should get his pee-pee wacked. First a go-around, then vectored for the ILS 04R, then changing to a LOC only approach while on final vectors and then the RNAV approach. Talk about hectic after a 9 hour flight. Not necessary.

[@HEDGE1011]

Gil Marriner Completely necessary. He had to clear them for the LOC due a tall ship moving into the harbor. The RNAV was then proffered and accepted as the most expeditious way to get the flight onto the ground.

[@davidhoffman1278]

HEDGE1011 , What? A tall ship? A tall sailing ship? An air craft carrier? Ships go in and out of harbors all the time. Why the heck have an ILS at all if it may be blocked by a ship?

[@HEDGE1011]

David Hoffman The harbor is just off the end of the runway and a tall ship violates protected airspace. Why have an ILS? Because most of the time there's not a ship there. When this airport was designed ILS clearance criteria and jet transport operations were not a factor.

[@veutsavoir]

Props for the Trippin In Court ref ;)

[@russelllassen5834]

some bad calls by Boston control and Boston center

[@omniryx1]

Unfortunate performance by ATC. Controllers seem to have very poor control of the airspace. There's little excuse for the atrocious handling of the Lufthansa flight. That being said, I have flown into and out of Logan many times and have never experienced this kind of sloppy flight handling. This one was a real mess.

[@alek488]

I've been on the Boston-Munich flight, this was back in 2015 and I'm wondering if they were using the A350 on that route back then because I forgot lmfao

[@bluebrickstudios1432]

Lufthansa got their A350s in late 2016, it must have been an A340 in 2015. www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-releases/en/2016/12/lufthansa-takes-delivery-of-its-first-a350-aircraft.html

[@ATCpilot]

They did not ;) LH introduced the A350 in 2017. It was most probably the A340-600

[@karimha6425]

I’m pretty sure it was an a330-300

[@alek488]

No it was most likely the a340

[@bostonareapilot3911]

Sounds like the controller did his best juggling a bunch of traffic and separating airborne traffic from tall ships near the approach end of 4R.

[@FBWFTW]

BostonAreaPilot you should see the pics I’ve got from working on the ships!

[@ATCpilot]

I would love to!

[@wiedehopf9068]

atc pilot your transscript could really use some work. You missed the important detail of: "there is a tall/tow vessel (ship) in the approach area, so unable ILS approach"

[@ATCpilot]

wiedehopf thanks. If I did not understand that, I guess the pilots didnt either. And even if so, it doenst change the fact that ATC screwed up the two approaches.

[@wiedehopf9068]

Well the first approach they screwed up. Or the plane in front of Lufthansa slowed early. Although i must say the typical USA announcement of 180 knots to 5 nmi is often not obeyed by pilots because they need to meet their stable approach criteria. 170 knots or even 160 knots to 5 nmi would probably work better. Pilots should announce "unable 180 to 5" but they don't want to argue with ATC. Sometimes they even ask for the 180 to 5 out even with a tailwind and that's when it gets ridiculous. their throughput in planes/hour is already good and the planes are moving much faster over the ground. The tall ship entering the area is not an ATC screwup, but yes he should have said change to approach Localizer 04R, Glideslope unavailable. On the other hand with all the noise on the frequency there was a more systemic problem: maybe not enough controllers to handle the bad maybe unforecast weather.

[@samsc6728]

It sounds as if this controller has had a stroke...!

[@spionsilver9626]

ok theres bad weather whis is always .. adding stress but the ATC´s need to chill out but work on their phrases .. they should install some sort of speech supervising the main reason is to depart and arrive airtraffic safely .. but if pilots cant understand local shortspeech and vocal habits ..it will create serious trouble .. "pepore arways choking about nasty ATC tark in asia or by asian pirots" but the east coast has some problems too i like phoenix ATC they are very clear and calm

[@Izmael1310]

What was the problem with the non ils approach (2nd) and non ILS/LOC approach (3rd). It was unavalaible becasue of...? I dont understand. Also is it confirmed that the fuel low situation was from Lufthansa? Thats also weird because in my opinion every plane has enough ful to do some 30-40 minutes hold + fuel to alternate airport + some reserve so it is weird too.

[@davidtsw]

No offense but why do so many of American ATCs seem not very smart to say the least ? At 1:00 the controller uses some non standard phraseology which the pilots struggle to understand and when they ask him to repeat the message he says the same think, using the same words, but even faster. What an idiot. And don't tell me it's to save time because he's busy. The whole thing took almost 20 seconds and could have taken 5 if the controller used standard aviation phraseology and spoke more clearly.

[@maltimoto]

I would have liked to listen to the phone call that the Lufthansa pilot made to the 630-...... number afterwards :-)

[@bill330]

He flew over my house on the MLTT approach. I see a lot heavy jet fly over my house.

[@alek488]

Each day above my house, the planes turn to align with the runway that heads north. I've seen a lot of A380's and 747's that way.

[@bill330]

I was in Stoughton when an Airbus A340 flew right over. I have seen a lot of 747 fly over my house in Randolph

[@alek488]

I once saw a 747 fly right over me. Planes fly over my house in Holbrook everyday.

[@FBWFTW]

It’s the ILS 04R approach. MILTT is the waypoint at the outer marker. The full approach starts at WINNI in Norwood, then NABBO which is right over the I93/route 24 split, then MILTT. Often when it’s busy they’ll vector the planes to intercept either at MILTT or slightly before which is a 5.1 mile final to the runway by the chart and 6.9 miles on the DME.

[@roccoVAL]

omg i hope there is never another 747 is the sky ever again...that turd is done RIP 747

[@tomjh51]

What I don’t get is that they said the wind was 050 at *3 KNOTS* why would they be unable to land...

[@ATCpilot]

TomJH Music because it was too close to preceding traffic?

[@tomjh51]

ATCpilot but at the start it said it was due to bad weather at the field

[@BeCoShooter]

Would a Ground Stop to BOS be an answer here, or was the weather unpredictable?

[@HEDGE1011]

Jeffrey J Not having a ship in the harbor with ILS to the north in progress would have been.

[@keithsmith4059]

Should have stuck with ILS approach ... ATC needs a lesson or two. :(

[@wiedehopf9068]

There were vehicles or something else in the area of the glideslope transmitter so it was unreliable. That was probably sudden so he just cleared him for the localizer only approach which Lufthansa didn't quite get. But that is not Lufthansa's fault because switching an approach should be announced more clearly (they obviously thought for now just join the localizer)

[@icarusvideo4440]

"Tall ship" off the end of the runway. In the old days we had different allowable weights if there was a tall ship off the end of the runway.

[@HEDGE1011]

Icarus Video We still do.

[@menaceg21]

What was the phone call going to be about?

[@HEDGE1011]

menaceg21 The handling the aircraft received from controllers.

[@johnnybikesalot]

A 603 number in Boston, did the controller give the pilot his cell phone number?

[@michaelcotter4203]

Boston Center is physically located in Nashua, New Hamphire, 603 area code.

[@GrafvonIsen]

Can someone please wrap up the merits of this event? Why did he miss 2 approaches? And why was it difficult and yet he said "It is hard, but we can try". Than he somewhat pissed claimed he can do "any approach" which apparently wasn't right.

[@davidswelt]

The terminology in the description above is non-standard (or faulty, if you want). The approaches were cancelled by ATC, and in one case, upon request by the pilots because the vectors received put them too close in for a safe approach (would have required too steep a descent, either for standard operating procedures or energy management - can't tell which).

[@GrafvonIsen]

Thanks! I didn't get, that ATC cancelled the approach.

[@wiedehopf9068]

They are able to fly all the published approaches. Which he based on current weather information he had which was probably better than what he encountered on the 3rd approach (just said it was close to minimum) First approach: Too close to the preceding traffic Second approach: expecting ILS, cleared for Localizer only approach. Lufthansa didn't get that they thought they should join the localizer only without capturing the glideslope, but they were cleared for a Localizer only approach and could've descended would the controller have made it more clear. (glideslope not usable because a large ship was on the water in front of the runway) Third approach: made it in but saw the runway at the last moment possible (minimum altitude to see the runway before having to go around) quite unfortunate to have that ship come in on the second approach.

[@GrafvonIsen]

Thanks for clearing this up.

[@lockergr]

wiedehopf Excellent recap!

[@DJDAVINCI]

welcome to mcdonalds can i take your order?

[@SB9P4]

Where l can find the real ATC?

[@roccoVAL]

SB9P4..they usually work in the big towers at most airports

[@lockergr]

One thing that I think Air Traffic Control needs to be more considerate of is talking really fast with foreign pilots. I teach ESL for a living and you really have to consider both your speed and your pronunciation, of course in addition to comprehensibility (but that wouldn't be such a big factor here).

[@t288msd]

Another example showing how bad American ATC is compared to the rest of the western world

[@ATCpilot]

Cannot confirm that in general. Experienced some pretty good ATC in California and Florida.

[@deplorablepatriot5338]

...and your evidence is?

[@ATCpilot]

Deplorable Patriot evidence to what?

[@deplorablepatriot5338]

My comment was intended for t228msd, who claimed American ATC is "bad" compared to the rest of the western world.

[@Frafty]

Lol the rest of the world doesn’t even come CLOSE to the amount of traffic the US sees. AND all I much tighter airspaces than anywhere else in the world. Fuck outta here.

[@edmonlevon]

Shouldn't Lufthansa's callsign be said by the pilots always after the collated information?

[@ATCpilot]

edlevon most people do it, but Lufthansa pilots learn it the correct way.

[@robertogolisano5951]

The question is? Why LH A350 after only 9 hours have Low Fuel?

[@ATCpilot]

Roberto Golisano because they did not take more than necessary

[@robertogolisano5951]

Ok but... why 😇?

[@safferms]

They would have taken extended time into consideration concerning fuel. The facta that ATC made them fly around like a homeless bird, which, BTW, chews up fuel under those circumstances, so all he was doing was stating a fact and never declared an emergency. Besides, itvis unclear as to who actually transmitted that but we can all guess. The LH jockeys did well and maintained level heads and even had time to be sarcasric to the ATC’er by saying they could land anywhere or something like that. Hope that answers your question.

[@TrzKeepo]

Roberto Golisano You never take full tanks, just adds up unnecessary drag, not cost effective at all.

[@miragedelta]

With low fuel, i would try my best to be stable at 1000ft and land rather then making another pattern with incompetent controllers, i partly think crew made a wrong decision of making another appraoch with low fuel state

[@BobbyGeneric145]

So much useless chatter... If Im level at 3000 tracking the localizer, no need to tell me "maintain 3000 til established". Im already established.

[@larsfroelich]

barely visible, not rarely visible

[@Mike_Sierra95]

Shit atc!

[@elbergalinda1596]

Cómo los de beoing se caen,que hacen los yanquis?tirarle mierda a Airbus...😠

[@melbrooksonbusiness4396]

The result of affirmative action instituted by the Obama administration?

[@mikemassino]

Inappropriate to have this discussion here. Grow up

[@terryofford4977]

Yes indeed, Chris V, you are correct, many older controllers were fired (to save dollars?) nevertheless, the U S A has a need to rationalize the country,Listen out on the App and Lcl ATC frequencies and you'll be surprised at the almost domestic level of speech, poor enunciation, non acceptable phrasing, e.g'Go Behind' 'Slow Down Behind' pronunciation of numbers are often poor with five and nine and similar goto etc.,

[@jennydiazvigneault5548]

This had nothing to do with Obama it had to do with a busy day in very poor weather. Dont be stupid.

[@lockergr]

Chris V I see you couldn't follow his "grow up" directive. No surprise there.

[@user-wl6bw3jl4n]

+@@lockergrI don't know who you are but it would seem some village is missing their idiot. Keep your uneducated opinion to yourself, particularly when you don't know what you are talking about.