Real or Fake? Investigating an 1840 Tuppenny Cover: #philately 49

Experts believe that this unique and rare envelope from the 1840s is not authentic. Let's explore the envelope "cover" together and soak the stamps off to determine if the experts are correct.
#stampcollecting #history #artefacts
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[@briandimambrorarebooksanti3337]

As a rare book dealer for the past 35 years I’ve examined a vast number of original mid 19th century paper items of all types, paper ephemera including letters, pamphlets with inscriptions, hand written manuscripts and documents, stamps, items sent through the mail like periodicals, endless sheets of paper with old folds, old stains, various signs of handling, etc. I’m very familiar with how old paper looks when it’s genuine and how it looks when it’s been tampered with or created later to look older. To my eyes those stamps belong to and are correct with the cover, no question about it. What is revealed on the surface of the paper by removal of them is what confirms it, not to mention the stamps uniform age patina, etc. What a great video! Loved it.

[@adamhuffman3354]

Yea paper of the period is a challenge if not impossible to forge but scary to see it happening. I went to an antique mall this past week and found a coin case filled with replicas of old American coins. Yea they were labeled as replica. Scary for me as an investor! They looked good.

[@RonaldSimkin]

I think it is also more than reasonable to assume that people of that time could have been less than totally fluent in the nuances of the correct postage rates of the 1840's than we are today for an obscure letter such as this.

[@Rangersly]

What a thrilling episode! So cool you were there to document the whole thing! I hope we hear more from this cover in the futur.

[@ExploringStamps]

😊 Thank you. Robin will have to keep us updated, I’m eager to find out what happens next.

[@sheikhmubeen391]

We have year 5+ Experience in stamps to identify stamp details. we will find details of your stamp collection. Find Grades And Make database record of your collection. We worked with many stamp dealers and also worked for people who were interested in stamp collection. we are the best choice for those who want to find details of their stamp collection. We offer sample work before proceeding with a long-term project.

[@peterhugo2078]

@@ExploringStampsit is 3 months now since the video so it should have been expertised by now. Have you an update on what was the final result? My gut feeling was that it was fake with additional stamps added to a genuine cover where one or two actually belonged. But I am no expert and there are numerous conflicting characteristics which make an educated guess difficult. But with all the technology and expertise now available, a more definitive decision could be made. A fascinating video but a cliff hanger too for sure and I would love to know if it had a happy ending. He must have bought the cover from a quality auction house to have an item like that in just a mixed lot. I wonder what else was in there and what he paid for it. I can imagine some boisterous excited bidding for it and the final price being in 4 figures.

[@piusschroh6361]

Would it not be possible that the paper was folded prior to being used as letter and therefore before the stamps were affixed?

[@ExploringStamps]

Absolutely a possibility! The dried stamp however points to it being folded after the stamp was affixed, but there are so many things that could or could not have happened to this cover over its life, it makes for a fun investigation 😊 Thanks for watching!

[@Lemma01]

That was a point not explored - and by no means unlikely- indeed arguably points to the letter being carried in a pocket etc to purchase the stamps. The handwriting is not that of a habitual writer of the period, and the random placement also indicates a lack of experience with the process - although who was, in 1840, 😂

[@ColinWatters]

For example if it was folded to fit a pocket on the way to the post office.

[@rodfleck]

Absolutely fascinating discussion about this cover and those four gorgeous stamps. While I cringed watching the handling of the soaked paper, the focus of the inquiry was really insightful.

[@ToraTigerTigger]

What if the person who sent the cover folded the letter - to fit into pocket/small bag - before taking it to the PO to have stamps attached & sent off?

[@ExploringStamps]

Totally possible!!

[@50westproductions8]

Had the same thought or possibly repurposed paper used for a cover

[@-oiiio-3993]

Had the same thought.

[@greglance4712]

That was so fascinating, I really thought soaking it would be so risky, and devalue the cover. I’ve only started collecting recently and on a steep learning curve. Great video

[@ExploringStamps]

Glad you found it interesting 😊 I’ll try to keep everyone updated on what happens to the cover. Thanks so much for watching!

[@leslieselby5270]

Graham, congratulations on another episode that should certainly cause some philatelic discussion. If it was my cover, I think I would have preferred to submit it to expertizing committee at the Vincent Grave Greene Philatelic Research Foundation in Toronto where they would have examined it using the Video Spectral Comparator made by Foster Freeman to see all the details including any marks under the stamps rather than soaking the stamps off cover. If it is genuine, I would think the value was decreased when the stamps were removed.

[@ExploringStamps]

Thanks Les, there certainly is an energetic discussion taking place here and online from this video. A VSC scan would be excellent, I think the owner of the cover will be submitting it for a certificate again, perhaps it will be a different committee that has access to a VSC to confirm that nothing was painted on. Thanks so much for watching!

[@Braddad126]

Does the Vincent Greene philatelic research foundation expertise all foreign covers?

[@kvppvk]

The best Exporing Stamps video ever. More ‘in depth’ videos like this please. 😊

[@ExploringStamps]

Glad you enjoyed it. The channel is ending soon I’m afraid, recently announced in the final mail day episode. But make sure to check out the other vids from Stampex

[@georgerab6101]

Fascinating. I have acted as a consultant to a well known expert committee and so would suggest that expert knowledge may help. The puzzling aspect for me is the incorrect rate to the USA. Although this was sent at the very beginning of postage stamps, sending of unstamped (bearing) letters to America have a much longer history. So it should have had the correct rate. If a specialist can convincingly explain away this anomaly then it probably is genuine.

[@keesdewaard206]

I watched this with fascination, never had I dared to soak those stamps off the cover in fear of ruining it. I keep on learning 😊 thanks Graham!

[@ExploringStamps]

Thank you, Kees 😊. I definitely wouldn’t dare do it to any of my cheap covers, let alone a five figure cover. Robin’s client is brave!! Thanks for watching.

[@LouisGedo]

Excellent episode. If it's a fake, the faker is super skilled.

[@ExploringStamps]

Yeah agreed, I’m convinced that it’s authentic, I’d be quite impressed if it is a fake.

[@andyf10]

Unlike the 'expert' ....

[@fareast_de]

Great show ! In my humble opinion, this early Victorian cover including the stamps is absolutely genuine. What we need now, is a positive certificate from an expert committee, based on this examination. Greets from GER, U.

[@ExploringStamps]

Agreed!! Let’s hope that it goes for certification again and maybe passes this time 🤞 Thanks so much for watching!

[@yessanknow302]

The problem is, the committees are not experts.

[@user-tl7mj2bm4m]

I collected stamps as a kid......holy shit...this episode had me on the edge of my seat. I guess I still must be a lover of stamps. Soaking it in water? Whoa....that alone killed me. Hell...this was better than MOST American movies... Fairly intense, but an incredible vid...I'll reiterate this again - THIS is the most AWESOME stamp channel IN EXISTENCE. Nothing beats it. Thank you for making stamps exciting and invigorating OLD and NEW COLLECTORS!...and yes, I"m 59 by the way.

[@patrickgascoyne8151]

I used to collect stamps when I was at school,had a lot of good commonwealth stamps.My brother took the stamps to school and sold them.He is very very lucky to still be here

[@lauraorben7128]

Another excellent episode! Interesting that there is an "8 d?" under where one of the stamps was placed and that 8d in postage was added around the cover in order not to interfere with the US address. There was also a Uniform Penny Postage rate back in 1840 where 'incoming' ship mail was 8d. I would be highly interested in an update once they sort this cover out. :)

[@lauraorben7128]

Web reading: www.rpsl.org.uk/rpsl/Displays/Handouts/DISP_20120607_001.pdf

[@duncanvr7567]

Suspect for me was the ship letter postmark was incomplete under the 2d stamp, and the MX lower right corner. I've actually bought stuff from Robin in the past a very reliable dealer.

[@ExploringStamps]

He is terrific! I bought a really neat Mulready cover from him that I’m very proud of. 😊 Thanks for watching!

[@duncanvr7567]

@@ExploringStamps He has nice QV surface printed covers to. Always worth a look in his shop.

[@bruceshaw2402]

The fact that the paper underneath the stamps showed up to be lighter ie protected by the stamps from fading / discolouring prooved to me that the thing was genuine , those stamps had been on that bit of paper for a long time .

[@rickwilmot9127]

Another great video, Graham! Personally, I would have taken a leap of faith and not removed the stamps from the cover. Surely, with photographic equipment around today the crease would have been found on the stamp without lifting it. Authentication is very expensive but with a cover like that, if I had the money, I would be getting a second or even a third opinion. 🙂

[@ExploringStamps]

I hear ya Rick 😅… I was super nervous watching this and it wasn’t even my cover! Let’s see what happens next, the owner I believe is resubmitting the cover to a committee for certification, I wonder what value it will be sold for if proven to be authentic. Thanks so much for watching!!

[@garyholdener2470]

Incredibly interesting episode illustrating how the very experienced in the trade examine, evaluate, and asses the value of an item that may or may not be authentic. Thanks Graham for this brilliant insight.

[@ExploringStamps]

😊 Glad it was interesting Gary! Thanks so much for watching.

[@mollendorfg]

Fascinating! Enjoyed watching this episode! Excellent video!!!

[@davidchandler4587]

Very interesting and informative. Great video. Thxnks for taking the time to film and edit and post up. Good work.

[@ExploringStamps]

Thank you David 😊 glad you found it interesting!

[@jameswardell1840]

Fascinating! Great video. I love a good mystery. 😃

[@ExploringStamps]

Glad you enjoyed it! 😊

[@jimhresco1728]

Enjoyed watching this episode! Seems with all the new tech available now to scan the letter soaking would be the last option. Especially on a 5 figure item. Wish the owner well on authentication. 😊

[@erikmulder2574]

Nice action, I occasionally do some soaking myself, but limited to common stamps. I agree that lifting stamps for expertizing or examining is fine, love to hear what others think

[@ExploringStamps]

Thanks Erik 😊 the comments section here has some interesting and different perspectives about soaking covers and whether this one is fake or not 🤔. Thanks for watching!

[@PhilipJMilton]

Well done Robin!

[@postcardnstamps]

Fascinating video and very educational. Robin did an excellent job!

[@ExploringStamps]

Thank you, Amy. It was loads of fun to film 😊

[@ThreeStunStamps]

Learned a ton from this video!!! excellent guidelines on what attributes to check and making deductions based on evidence that can be observed on the cover, trying sequence forged activity and how it would result or look like… super video Graham!!! ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️

[@ExploringStamps]

Glad it was helpful! 😊 Thanks so much for watching and for your support.

[@kevincrock1202]

Great show thanks from Kevin in France and Florida

[@ExploringStamps]

Thanks Kevin, glad you enjoyed it 😊

[@Heaven2010la]

Great video. I thought I saw Robin, the surgeon of stamp collecting, and I really admired his skill at dissecting stamps, and I was amazed by his audacity, but judging a true or false, any move is appropriate. I hope I'm not the last person to see this video, thank you Graham

[@androliving5671]

Holmes @work, the stamp game is a foot...🧐 Really exiting episode there, Graham and Laura. Although it's just s letter 😆

[@ExploringStamps]

Thank you 🙏 It’s amazing how interesting a simple envelope can be, there could be a whole series of videos on this kind of thing. Thanks for watching!

[@midorner]

Excellent episode and what a Thriller!

[@ExploringStamps]

Thank you 😊 glad you enjoyed it!

[@GreatStampAdventure]

Hi Graham, this is my second time watching your video. The first time, shortly after publishing, I didn't get to writing a comment. 🙂 This lengthy explanation to say it was worth it to watch a second time. An excellent detective story! I don't know enough to give my opinion, but for me it feels wrong to have soaked off the stamps for investigation. I am sure one could first have gotten a second and third opinion at other expertisers. Especially since the cover as is is worth so much. It was scary to see the stamps being soaked off! 😵‍💫But I am sure Robin knew what he was doing. Thank you so much for preparing this interesting episode, Graham and Laura.

[@andream61]

I would say that the uncorrect rate is the biggest problem to solve. It is true that if the 8 d. franking is not sufficient we should find tax markings on the cover, but it is to be pointed out that similar markings would be found also if the letter had travelled not franked (and the stamps added post mortem, so to speak)

[@ThreeStunStamps]

Ok so I’m at the part where the cover is being soaked on water and my heart is beating loudly my neighbor could hear it across the street 😂

[@ExploringStamps]

😂😅 yup! And I had to keep a steady hand for the camera, stressful stuff.

[@forwoodc2704]

Not sure where the 'evidence' for it being fake is. For example, as others have said the crease was probably on the letter before stamps were attached. It was normal back then to write the letter then send it to the Post Office where the stamps were attached. It is also said that it was the wrong rate but when the stamps were removed there is a clear 8 written on the cover. Ship rates could and did vary, often on the whim of the captain.

[@kroo07]

Really enjoyed watching that, thankyou, including the owner. I am a very amateur collector of QV used stamps and covers. I also do calligraphy and like to study old handwriting, again completely amateur. As my opinions are worthless in this context I will merely list my thoughts, for and/or against:- 1. First reaction was "surely not genuine", but I would certainly have wanted to bid on it in a bargain mixed lot; 2. I was nervous that the writing of "William Randoll" is either a different hand, a different ink, or done at a different time to the address; 3. Really, really liked the number 8 under the top left stamp, I noticed initially that the rate was missing; 4. Did not like some of the stamp corners, that looked a little rounded or worn, on the three LH stamps. I would expect these to be neatly square unless all the stamps has been cut and handled before affixing; 5. Why did the sender seemingly have two goes at the number 83. Perhaps they realised the need for stamp space and rubbed or rinsed the first attempt; 6. The two sheet adjacent stamps were cut with a relatively sharp knife or scissors. The other two appear to have been cut with some type of serrated scissors and with an unskilled hand. If they were from the same sheet one may expect, although not necessarilly, that either or both of one implement and one person might have cut them; 7. The "from Great Western" is also a different hand to the main address; Thankyou.

[@ExploringStamps]

Thank you 😊 glad you found it interesting! So many factors to consider and questions to ask, such as the ones you bring up! I’m hoping to see this cover go back to a committee for certification and perhaps get more answers now that the stamps have been lifted… let’s see! Thanks so much for watching!!

[@grahamlangfield2665]

I've seen this cover before. I personally wouldn't be happy buying it. The negatives still outweigh the positives for me. I was bitten many years ago with a 1d black plate 4 on cover. Superb 4 margin, full mx on stamp, not tied. I decided to soak it off, it didn't look quite right. It had a thin on reverse and also pl 4 written on the back! Amazing for 1840!........not. I've learnt a lot since then.

[@ExploringStamps]

Ohhh nooo 🫣 “pl 4” on the back?!? Well, at least you could be 100% sure it was contrived at that point… but that really hurts, oof.

[@mattys1467]

Excellent episode. Robin is an excellent trader who is very fair to deal with. As for the cover, it seemed rather too good to be genuine.

[@ExploringStamps]

Robin is indeed an excellent trader 😊 And he is eager to teach and learn with us!

[@StampswithSara1]

Great episode.

[@ExploringStamps]

Thanks Sara 😊

[@alanpower2857]

Bravo. Although I don't think I could have plunged that into water. I would go into convulsions. I'm surprised that he did not focus on who and where. There's a lot to look at on this cover. I have a strip of 5 of the darker blue with black crosses. Strong crease but I don't think I will come across another any time soon. Time to read all the other comments. I'm glad people still care about the heart of collecting, and history. Nice work gents.

[@arthurswart4436]

In The Netherlands, postage to the colonies was at a reduced rate compared to common overseas destinations. Also people somehow connected to the army or the merchant fleet could send goods and letters at a discount. This continued for some time after the independence of these colonies. It would make sense the UK had/has a similar discounted rate for those destinations and individuals, which would make the franked amount lower than usual. In 1840 it'd been only 84 years...

[@ExploringStamps]

Totally possible! There are a few folks in the comments here and online that are discussing the different transatlantic rates with this cover, revealing some things that the expertizing committee may not have considered… hoping for an update on the owners decision with the cover soon 🤞

[@hirschy10]

Interesting we are always learning new ways to learn about stamps i love learning how to deal with stamps. 😎

[@umasankarbanerjee3593]

Excellent video

[@ExploringStamps]

Thank you very much! 😊

[@nylemonday8630]

Very nice, Graham, although I cringed when that cover went in the water!

[@DavidPhilatelist]

I enjoyed the video. Thank you for sharing, and have a great day! =)

[@ExploringStamps]

Thank you David, glad you enjoyed it 😊

[@stephend6559]

Really gripping. Far more so than Fake or Fortune which is is so much more contrived. To see the process as it happened was wonderful. I truly reckon a series of these would get significant viewers and can cover much more fakery - eg, thins, reperfs & similar.

[@JeffHole-wc1tc]

Cool stuff.

[@ExploringStamps]

😎 👍

[@tonyadeney1245]

good insight used to collect inexpensive british stamps interesting video tick more stamp investigations would be good to see what to look for ...

[@roygbiv5164]

In regards to the "crease", why couldnt it have been there prior to the stamp being placed on it?

[@happybunny1329]

It could have been, but if the stamp was on the envelope at the same time as the envelope was creased, the stamp would also be creased in the same way ...which it is. If the stamp had been fixed to the envelope after the envelope was creased, there would be no crease on the stamp. The question is... who creased the envelope? If it was the forger, they could have added the fake stamp, and then creased the envelope and stamp to try to make the cover look genuine. There are so many possibilities. :)

[@roygbiv5164]

@@happybunny1329 Thank you so much for pointing out the obvious. You could have saved yourself some time.

[@philippinnington2798]

Thanks, great video. Interesting point that it is common practice on the “continent” to hinge the stamps back on. Looking at the comments I am inclined to agree with those who think that the removal of the stamps significantly undermines the value as it undercuts the argument that it is genuine, ie as it was originally prepared. It may not be a forgery but it is less than it was.

[@ExploringStamps]

Yeah I kinda feel the same way, would love to poll the viewers and see what the overall thoughts are.

[@dickdoyle1]

It's a tricky one to get your head round, but the issue was it had been given a Certificate as faked by a major Certifying body, so therefore (even if it is genuine) is only saleable as a fake with that Certificate, in the condition it was. With the new 'evidence' it may prove to be genuine and therefore the value will be greatly enhanced, even though the stamps have been soaked off. They can be hinged back in place, and the whole story will give it extra impetus/provenance as well

[@ExploringStamps]

@@dickdoyle1 True! The cover is now KZbin famous and has been seen by philatelists all around the world :D. I'm excited to see what happens next with the cover, please keep us updated.

[@danstars1]

Some fascinating investigation work, it will be interesting to know if it gets re-evaluated. Also be interested to know what the valuation will be after having the stamps removed.

[@ExploringStamps]

Agreed! I’ll make sure that Robin gives us an update so that I can share with you all. I’m very curious myself 👀 Thanks so much for watching!! 😊

[@MrHistorian123]

As one who collects stamps from this era (and knows Robin extremely well), I have a further thought. The stamps come from the same sheet beyond doubt. The chances of 4 stamps from the same sheet all coming into the hands of the same collector are remote, UNLESS the stamps were acquired in a block of 4, which the letterings here do not allow. I have quite a number of 1840 2d blues and no two are so alike in shade and appearance as these 4. The only likely way 4 stamps from the same sheet could be found together is if they came on separate covers from the sale of a law firm's archive. I have several cases in my collection where stamps obviously from the same sheet appear on different covers and all are addressed to solicitors. This is because solicitors often get several letters in quick succession from the same correspondent and they often store them together for a very long time. But even if someone acquired 4 covers with closely matched stamps, their value would be so considerable that butchering them to fake this cover would be an enormous gamble. Very intriguing. I shall ask Robin what the outcome was when I next see him.

[@johnhawkinshawkins1284]

DNA? Who sent it first? Who licked the stamps.....?

[@ExploringStamps]

I would LOVE to do that for philatelic items!!

[@guycossettecossette7444]

The putted re-printed no 2 in early 1900s on an unstamped cover from 1840 .. i always thinked that no 2 been printed early 1841 .. Hello from Canada

[@gavinstrachan1373]

Thanks i got postage cards with old stamps on from first world war which found in our attic i will have to get them valued also some old Navy postage cards thanks video

[@buzzawuzza3743]

This is fascinating and my question is about where the letter came from. Was it sold by a family member of the writer or the recipient? Was it in the family until someone sold it off? Wouldn't that go aways towards confirming it's authenticity? It's an idea I've had but of course I'm no expert in this kind of thing at all.

[@ExploringStamps]

It’s a good question BuzzaWuzza. In some cases, provenance can totally support the authenticity of an item, knowing its origin and who held the item over its lifetime. It sounds like this was part of a larger lot that was won at auction, and no decent details about its history came with it, so not in this case it seems. Thanks for watching!!

[@HenkeV368]

thrilling video about when he soaked the letter but as collector as myself is not dangerous to soak stamps if you know what you doing, and there is common with forgeries sadly

[@ExploringStamps]

Thank you 😊 Yes sadly there are many contrived covers out there, I hope this video brings some awareness to newer collectors to keep an eye out for things that don’t look right on covers before purchasing them. Thanks for watching 😊

[@rogerturner1881]

Perhaps the cover was creased before the stamps were added on later. Also the stamp on the envelope , wouldn't the stamps be well stamped with the red cross...quest is why was it creased in the middle? and when. i also noticed the 1 of the stamps letters was J J isn't this also a rarer combination of the same letter. Great and interesting vid, Graham.

[@CharlenePBlair]

Interesting 🤔

[@TheNorthscape]

I haven’t read all the comments but I’d say the stamps are placed to avoid the address.

[@ExploringStamps]

I think so as well!

[@1mmickk]

I lived in a house once and one entire wall say 15 feet x 12 feet x 12 feet was covered in English and the latter Australian Stamps. Tens of thousands of them. NO internet them so to study them would have taken someone with rare experience. The House was demolished and the Stamps lost. All the stamps were pre decimal currency. To me the question was how the hell did someone collect them? many were not post marked. Maybe a Thief? But in those days companies like electricity and gas received thousands of letters a day with cheques in them. It would have been someone who worked in such a place who would have collected them.Probably gave them to a child who diligently pasted them on their bedroom wall.

[@yessanknow302]

Blimey, you handled that cover very roughly.

[@tejarex]

The stamps could have been soaked off without endangering the cover as much by putting drops of water on the stamps with an eyedropper. Or just the 1 stamp could have been.

[@ExploringStamps]

Although I’ve never done or seen this, I’ve heard that exposing the stamps to moisture for 24 hours can free them from the cover. I’m guessing an eye dropper as you mentioned would be sufficient 🤔.

[@rmun386]

I'm intrigued by the fold being visible on the front of the item but not on the back. I wonder if there was something enclosed in the envelope which could have caused it?

[@happybunny1329]

There is always a possibility the cover is part real and part faked. It's possible the stamp with the crease is genuine, but one or more of the other stamps/postmarks are fake. Someone with a valuable cover may still be greedy enough to want to attempt to convert a valuable cover into a super-valuable cover by faking additional bits. I would be sure to investigate each stamp and postmark individually for authenticity as well as the cover as a whole. Do the postmarks add up to a real journey? Does the 8d postage paid correspond to the right postage for that journey? Does the seal have right wax composition and colour for that period? Is the handwriting of period? Are the manufacturing techniques and composition of the paper in the envelope correct for period? And so on. Also, who's to say an astute forger doesn't realise that creasing a faked cover may add integrity to their fake and do it deliberately to deceive? There are so many factors at play here to determine authenticity, not only the four stamps. I don't think it's ever possible to discount all scenarios, and authentification is simply the best interpretation that can be made on available evidence, not a factual statement of what actually happened, because in reality we can never know for certain.

[@ExploringStamps]

Absolutely!! All very good points, there are soooo many possibilities that could potentially explain the cover. I’m very curious to see what a different certification group may say with what we now know about the cover with stamps removed. We will have to get updates from Robin!! 😊 Thanks so much for watching!

[@ColinWatters]

How much does it weigh? If under 1/2 once I think 8d is correct.

[@user-sp1kd3yg5q]

Interesting and instructive video . Not sure about the decision to use such invasive techniques to confirm or otherwise its authenticity. If nearly all the visual cues corroborate , and they seem to do so, then the main question is about the stamps. The fact that the envelope could have been creased before the stamps were affixed is not conclusive either way. Although 'reasonable doubt". Removing the stamps is not only destructive, it challenges the intrinsic and extrinsic value of the cover. There are plenty of investigative techniques that could have been employed; spectrophotometry and spectroscopy. to examine authenticity including substrate analysis. all of which would not necessarily have been expensive given today's technology. Shame really

[@campbellmorrison8540]

Interesting, but if it is real wouldn't taking the stamps off affect its value, it isnt original anymore. I know nothing about stamps but it looks real to me or its a pretty amazing forgery considering how long ago it must have been done given the shading of the paper under the stamps.

[@jackhelm9852]

Please try to keep up with this gentleman and report on the results when/if they are examined and determined again, one way or the other.

[@ExploringStamps]

Yes absolutely!! I look forward to seeing what happens next.

[@bambopbam9025]

What was the rate from England to New York? In the video it is mentioned the rate was not 8p. If it was 7p that means a 1p overpayment but that may have been necessary if there were no 1p stamps at the post office. So the sender didn't care and paid an extra pence to get the letter in the mail asap.

[@birdshenanigans8506]

Your client certainly pulls the strings.

[@2realesazul]

Not much of an expert this person is. The 8d rate is correct for a ship letter to the US. This cover traveled on the Great Western, as written on the bottom left which was indeed a non-contract steamer, departed Bristol September 12th, arriving in New York Sep 27. The 1/ rate was for a Cunard contract ship. That black circle on the right side in different ink is the postage due at New York of 6 cents. The lesson here is that we learn NOTHING by soaking the stamps off. Do not mess with potentially valuable pieces people, there are other modern techniques to evaluate whether a piece is genuine or not. If this cover was genuine, I'd guess half its value is gone now.

[@dickdoyle1]

Thank you so much for your comments, I will follow-up on this, the stamps are definitely my expertise but transatlantic rates - I asked several specialists and none came back with what you have suggested, so very interesting to hear indeed as this was a key part of the expertising board originally giving it a bad cert. That is why we decided to do what we did in the first place

[@2realesazul]

@@dickdoyle1 Well, I'd say that performance definitely earns you the title of MrBeast of Philately. At least no one was hurt (physically), in the making of the video. The more I look at all the details the more I think the cover was genuine. I made a short video for you, I hope it helps: kzbin.info/www/bejne/gpmuZZJjja5prsU

[@kroo07]

I am unclear how the post office that determined the rate would know the ship on which it would be carried, unless the sender was offered a choice rather like first or second class? I notice that the "from" in "from Great Western" was covered by one of the stamps so preceeded the stamp. Is it indeed "from" or another word? "For" would make more sense but it does not look like that.

[@2realesazul]

@@kroo07 I always interpreted the routing indication was the archaic use of the word "Per" but I am not a native English speaker so I may be wrong. Keep in mind that these were not random departures. Dates of sailing and ship names were published in advance on newspapers so of course they knew what the options were.

[@ExploringStamps]

Interesting discussion!! I think you may have given some valuable insight for Robin and the owner. Thank you!

[@_H_2023]

Oh dear this is crazy removing the stamps and not distilled water! Surely placing it on top of a light box would have shown the detail above or below the paper including the crease, the light box doesn't have to be strong just a little bit stronger than the light in this room as you can already see markings on the paper in this video. I certainly wouldn't want to purchase these stamps knowing they have been removed and then reglued.

[@dickdoyle1]

Hi, just for clarity as mentioned in the video, the owner requested the stamps be removed ; historically this is a common practice so that stamps may be inspected for faults ; the major international certifying board had given it a bad certificate, it was looked at under light, but to enable a full inspection the stamps had to be removed. As I think you can gather from the video, this is not something I especially would normally do or recommend. Hope this helps. Best regards, Robin

[@jbb-cj1md]

I never really understood why people use insufficient postage amounts on a cover as evidence that the cover is probably a fake. I'm sure that there are thousands of letters travelling through postal systems every day franked with incorrect postage, and without any postal markings indicating them as such.

[@Savageman76]

It is real. What a find. 👍🏻

[@ExploringStamps]

I’m with you, I think it’s real ☺️. Thanks for watching!!

[@kingcurry6594]

I'm fascinated how you can know that without seeing it. I'm a very experienced collector and I wouldn't commit to any opinion without examining it in person.

[@kymjohnthorburn6044]

I think that the same type of x-rays used in fine art investigation - forensics should be used - to determine authenticity, following the four principles of fake - as used by Jean de Speratii - paper - ink - period -reapplication , ie - chemistry - light refraction - material aging . I f a masterpiece is taken out of its frame - it was never the same as when it was first put in its frame - its has changed - and ultimately its authenticity has been tampered with - however - only a few would know - so there is the rub.

[@boboallan1]

High magnification would have been a better non-destructive way to proceed. Still believe it is authentic.

[@andyf10]

Wow, it's screams authentic to me. The shadow of clean paper where the stamps were, the absense of the ship stamp underneath the stamp (visible from the back) the common plate letters.... I cannot believe that there was really any question over this. Now they have been removed the piece is seriously compromised. There is no way Id have removed those stamps from the cover! Also, the guys handling of the fragile cover was appaling. So much for the 'pros'....

[@Bartyron]

1. Could this investigation not better be done with non destructive methods like infrared as they do with paintings and so keep it's value when genuine? 2. Could the paper be creased before used as an envelope?

[@405940ny]

I wouldn't buy after refixing the cover.. The "Original" this magic word is not there anymore

[@ExploringStamps]

You raise an interesting point! I’d be curious to hear everyone’s thoughts on this.

[@gilanganeh1]

Genuine cover, genuine stamps, but fake usage..

[@ExploringStamps]

Interesting, and quite possible! thank you for your thoughts 😊

[@aib0160]

The letter could have been written and folded before the stamps went on.

[@LouisGedo]

👋

[@ExploringStamps]

Hi Louis 👋

[@maxiewawa]

One day they'll be able to put them in a CAT scanner like machine and it'll sequence the DNA of the glue and it will tell us in 2 milliseconds whether or not they belong together.

[@ExploringStamps]

That would be…. AMAZING!!

[@annettedesclayes5486]

Why no gloves handling stamps that may be rare?

[@highlandcow4765]

Looks like the missing two stamps were right centre vertical and top right corner horizontal. kzbin.info/www/bejne/ppbXhnWpoqxgp8U

[@forwoodc2704]

With regard to the rate, stop the video after exactly 15 minutes. In the top left corner, where one of the stamps had been stuck, there is what looks to be to be a clear figure eight. It may have been the right or wrong rate (my understanding is that ship captains had some digression when charging for mail) but if we agree it is a figure eight what can it refer to other then the cost of postage? There was a question about the placing of the stamps. Why is that a problem? Clearly the address was written before the stamps were placed on the cover. Doesn't everyone do that? The stamps were then placed where there were big enough spaces for them. Far from the evidence being 'mixed' the physical evidence suggests very strongly that it is totally genuine, if now somewhat destroyed. I would like to see it again with the stamps put back on - what do you use to do that which is not going to damage the paper? Perhaps the video should have a different title. . .

[@ExploringStamps]

Thanks to several comments such as yours, Robin and his client are actually going to submit the cover again for certificate, I’m curious to see what will come of it. There is a strong belief that 8 is indeed the rate, several other examples have been brought up that show an 8d rate across the Atlantic in 1840. I’m not sure how the stamps will be placed back on the cover. What title would you suggest for the video?

[@forwoodc2704]

Will be very interesting to see what new committee think of it. Would I be right guessing that the first one was the RPSL? I was somewhat surprised that having looked at all the evidence the conclusion on the video was that the jury was still out. Also, and this may be so obvious as to not being worth mentioning on the video, that the stamps were all plate 1 (as far as I can tell) which is absolutely right. Alternative titles perhaps something along the lines of 'Just because it looks good does not mean bad'.@@ExploringStamps

[@user-lb3jw6jk1s]

Does not look faked. The London postmark looks genuine. If the postmark was fake it would have better impression detail and not a light cancel. Should not have soaked in water.

[@user-rl5nd3ys8p]

🇦🇺👍

[@ExploringStamps]

😎👍

[@olliebeak131]

I don't get it. Potential value of 5 figures, then the letter is covered in water - and the ink could have run. The stamps have been taken off and it turns out to be genuine. Ruined, surely?

[@ExploringStamps]

We will see! Robin recently confirmed that the cover is being sent back for certification, although it might be a different expertising committee, I’m not sure. But if proven now to be authentic, then we will see if it achieves a 5 figure sale price:

[@dickdoyle1]

Hi, just for clarity as mentioned in the video, the owner requested the stamps be removed ; historically this is a common practice so that stamps may be inspected for faults ; the major international certifying board had given it a bad certificate, it was looked at under light, but to enable a full inspection the stamps had to be removed. As I think you can gather from the video, this is not something I especially would normally do or recommend. Hope this helps. Best regards, Robin

[@leovanlierop4580]

I can't get my head around the fact, that he still thinks it could be genuine and willing to soak it.

[@ExploringStamps]

Same 😆 he made us all nervous!

[@leovanlierop4580]

@@ExploringStamps made? I still am!

[@kitrichardson5573]

There’s no longer original gum on those stamps, they have definitely dropped in value and the cover has been tampered with and it’s never going to be completely the way it was originally. I would buy it after this egregious display

[@robg3545]

Oh would a true Briton really affix his monarch's portrait inverted? Surely not!

[@alanpower2857]

People have been putting stamps upside down and sideways from day one. All countries. US, Canada, Great Britain. I have examples of all of them and you can easily Google images of them. The way you placed a stamp on an envelope used to have special meaning. Those days are gone but the covers still exist.

[@jayare2620]

Back when there were actual philatelists it would have been immediately judged a fake.

[@ExploringStamps]

The experts or “actual philatelists” as you say immediately judged it wrong as a fake. This is likely not a fake, and the client may be getting a certificate now that it has been properly looked at :)

[@jayare2620]

"Now that it been properly looked at"------"LIKELY NOT a fake"??": "MAY be getting a certificate"? What are you trying to say? What happened after it was "properly looked at"????? ITS A FAKE.

[@ExploringStamps]

@@jayare2620 they found no evidence of it being a fake, especially now that they got to look under the stamps. Also the rate has been proven to be the correct rate for trans Atlantic letters, other examples have turned up from viewers and experts after watching this video. So let’s see what happens next, Robin believes it could still go for 5 figures🤞

[@luigiaqua2263]

Somehow I smell a falsified postal item. As the stamps are not original from this envelope, but both parts are genuine. A marriage. What makes me wonder that no microscope is used, a stereo one is very useful to detect not matching marks. A 100% falsification is nearely impossible to make due to the enormous effort.

[@adiem1653]

Believe it was genuine and he's destroyed the authenticity 😅

[@sarahmaynard2507]

Interesting, but felt the stamp expert had a very negative attitude.

[@adelhalimgawani60]

For me the are not fake just by looking everywhere, you just damage the all things and l lose value it was better live like the was

[@tedlawrence4189]

You may as well keep the stamps off cover as you ruined the value of this valuable,if genuine,cover.

[@dickdoyle1]

So the reason we did it is because the experts had given it a bad certificate, meaning they believed it was not genuine, and thus unsaleable as a cover. Now we can review all the evidence and have it re-examined if necessary, the stamps can always be hinged back in place which is a common occurrence on covers - one often sees the remark on a certificate 'stamp lifted for inspection and hinged back in place'. The decision was not taken lightly lol! Many thanks for your comments.

[@ExploringStamps]

Let’s see! The cover will likely be submitted again to a committee for certification, I hope to be updated with the outcome and eventual fate of the cover, either sold together or just the stamps.

[@philcollinson328]

Looks as fake as hell to me.