The REAL REASON Harley Quinn Got DESTROYED

[@realjesterbell]

PSA: I don’t know how it happened but my audio cut out when I was reading the Jimmy Palmiotti quote… So when that comes up just be sure to read it because it’s literally the entire point of this video

[@ClassicHarleyQuinn]

@@realjesterbell I'm surprised you brought the 30th anniversary special for Harley to be honest. I decided not to but I do have the 25th anniversary special.

[@kazekamiha]

It might be an idea to repeat it in writing; the 30th Ann banner blocked part of the quote.

[@kevthepoet]

Absolutely phenomenal vid, I loved the Batman animated series and loved Harley's original incarnation but didn't follow the comics so I never understood how and why she changed so much in the movies and her animated shows. This explains alot. Great work as usual 👌🏾🙏🏾💜

[@DanielBMaximoff]

No love for Mercy Graves/;'Livewire

[@JohnHenrysaysHi]

Gotcha! Also, for those not aware, JesterBell mentioned Judy Holliday in association with Harley Quinn and you can hear Judy Holliday doing the Harley Quinn voice as her character Bille Dawn in Born Yesterday (1950)!

[@YassineFarah2423]

Harley Quinn started out as a cautionary tale of how normal people can be manipulated into loving and trusting the wrong person, now she feels unrecognizable.

[@harleybtasfan90s]

👏👏👏

[@Nihonguy]

Ironically part of the reason harley chose a life of crime is because she felt she didnt fit in with mainstream society, they always tried to force her to be who she wasnt. And she changes writers all the time and they mold her into what they her to be and not who she is

[@harleybtasfan90s]

@@Nihonguy so true

[@TiberiusX]

Exactly! She's supposed to be a warning not a role model!

[@Rawan.9472]

Not true. She’s a psychiatrist working in a psychiatric hospital for criminals. The number one rule when working there is to not form any kind of bond with your patient, because they will manipulate you into helping them escape. This is what is taught before working in a place like that. So you can’t compare her to a regular civilian, since she knew what she was getting into because she has studied about these kinds of things.

[@echecroi]

Not every Character needs to be the Main Protagonist.

[@harleybtasfan90s]

This👍

[@HebiHouse]

Definitely in the case of Planet Sheen.

[@TheLast-pd3uu]

The writers of "what if" took it as a challenge XDDD

[@vernonhampton5863]

Exactly, thank you. Harley Quinn is a henchman. That's it.

[@BeckDaniel]

I liked most of the Harley quinn show T-T

[@trevorpearlharbor5171]

Harley Quinn was written so badly that they had to make Punchline just to fill as Joker's new sidekick.

[@dantemcedgelord9331]

yeah, btw where is punchline? i guess she failed

[@HeliatroCipher]

Nina the Killer lookin' clowngirl's even got her own schtick now last I checked. She's some internet sexy streamer celebrity who is veery loosely clown themed.

[@harleybtasfan90s]

@@trevorpearlharbor5171 yup

[@cosmicspacething3474]

Nah they literally gave her a really cool moment in that arc where she forced Batman into either saving her or the Joker because she was done with the Joker getting away with everything.

[@dordonake]

If anyone asks, i don't consider the rear end fetish version as canon. No matter how much fans this version has, it's not canon for me.

[@omegaman2846]

DC already had a Deadpool. His name is Plastic Man. They’re just too dumb to realize this. Edit: I’m loving all the alternate suggestions for DC’s Deadpool. You guys are awesome DC fans in these comments!

[@harleybtasfan90s]

Yesss👍

[@ClassicHarleyQuinn]

Actually DC's Deadpool is Lobo.

[@cclark8469]

What about ambush bug?

[@omegaman2846]

@@cclark8469 also a good one!

[@omegaman2846]

@@ClassicHarleyQuinn he would also make a great DC Deadpool

[@acemarvel1564]

From Icon to toxic Feminism to Straight up fetish art I Absolutely loathe whoever hired these writers

[@harleybtasfan90s]

So sad but so true

[@cartooncentral263]

Those writers need to be fired. We need some to bring Harley back to her original roots.

[@benh8657]

Next step: Domesticating Harley, or a redemption arc where Harlene Quinzel grows up.

[@GFXCXZ]

"toxic" feminism is just honest feminism. It was that at its core from the start. It just hoodwink and stabbed other women rights movement in the back in order to get the image it was the leader of the women awakening era at the beginning of the manual to automated labor revolution - and birth control one too -

[@stellviahohenheim]

You know those DC comic CeOs are into Harvey Weinstein stuff just by how much they're over compensating

[@shannonmcelroy8454]

The saddest part for me is that Harley was one of the first examples of how abuse creeps into someone's life that I actually got to learn from in high school. She helped me understand that everyone is vulnerable to false perceptions about someone in their life and that tying yourself to any individual as a crucial part of your identity is dangerous. It was because of her example that I was better able to understand Cult mentality in Collegiate Psychology and realize that people taken in by individuals like Charles Manson and Jim Jones are not complete idiots who deserve to be laughed at and blamed. They're people who were offered a heart and a home and couldn't possibly imagine how anyone would do so with malicious intent, just like how young kids believe someone being nice to you can only mean they like you.

[@QuatrinaVR]

You really nailed it It’s sad what’s happened to such a powerful story

[@DeadSilence115]

Same literally happened to Deadpool he was a tragedy behind the comedy character. He was a rep of s uic1dal people with body dysmorphia who used his humor to cope with his pain. Siryn tried redeeming him and Typhoid Mary ended up trying to ruin him even SAing him breaking him. Then the game made him a creep with no substance.

[@dantemcedgelord9331]

youz just wanna watch her get abused

[@ab-gail]

💯

[@MxMe-su1ch]

​@DeadSilence115 Deadpool wasn't originally comedic or tragic. In New Mutants #99 he's a straight assassin. He was Deathstroke for Marvel.

[@Cyberguy64]

Batman TAS had Harley's perfect arc, go figure. She was the Joker's sidekick and henchwoman, who subconsciously knew that she was being abused and manipulated, but just couldn't escape the Joker's charisma and manipulation. Then in Batman Beyond, we see that in the future, after Joker got what was coming to him, she managed to clean up her act and had a family and granddaughters, who she's furious with for going down the same path she once did. Everything else just rings hollow. It feels like they're parading around a name and costume, rather then an actual character.

[@i-1044]

This

[@innovator90]

So true

[@darkzeroprojects4245]

"But muh misogyny"

[@tempestvenator9809]

I think the problem is that comics are never allowed to truely retire a character. They want to milk Harley dry like they do every other character. Which will invevitably stagnate and decline.

[@Tyler_W]

100%

[@kazekamiha]

I think the thing is she's been changed too much. She was a cautionary tale of what can happen to someone by another's manipulations, a tragic tale of what one's emotions can do to you. Current Harley is 'nutty girlboss'.

[@senormarston]

Yeah, we can't have that anymore because, you know, she is a woman, a strong, independent and smart woman; so the writing will always narrow

[@cosmicspacething3474]

It’s like skipping Batman’s parents dying

[@MaxiRomero-wu3fw]

she was destroyed because she went so popular that she can´t be a villain anymore.

[@harleybtasfan90s]

👍

[@valentinkambushev4968]

And she also dragged Ivy with her. People complain about Batman not having enough female villains, well, stop redeeming his already existing ones!

[@marcogenovesi8570]

she is not anywhere near as popular as Joker and he is still a villain

[@CharlesChristinaWH]

Which was a bad take by DC That's like taking Darkseid another popular and iconic dc villian and turning him into a hero And he has one of the most dark and tragic origin stories in comic history

[@stellviahohenheim]

Actually it's because men hates women

[@NASAVids24-h9m]

From a tragic and comedic character, to a gross and grosser character. What an evolution! 🤔😟

[@vapoet]

Tragic and comedic. So, you laughed at every backhand Joker gave her?

[@darkzeroprojects4245]

​​​@@vapoet Because that's what he meant....(sarcasam) It so isn't her funny moments when she isn't beaten and abused , or her quips and such that he meant by comedic. (More sarcasam)

[@JurassicRod]

The only Harley Quinn is the 90s DCAU one voiced by Arleen Sorkin.

[@harleybtasfan90s]

Amen

[@TiberiusX]

What's weird is Margo actually does the accent in Wolf of Wall Street almost exactly. It's bizarre they decided not to use her second most iconic feature. Then again without her *most* iconic feature her costume, she's not really Harley.

[@JurassicRod]

@@TiberiusX I remember Margo when she was in Neighbours and when I heard she was cast as Harley I thought it was perfect. She had the potential to be great in the role but was never given good material and decided to go down the modern and somewhat feminist Harley no one likes.

[@CharlesChristinaWH]

​@@JurassicRod she had some great Harley Quinn moments but they did make her an Antihero

[@Yunglex313]

I actually really loved Tara Strong's portrayal of the character. Maybe I am in the minority but she's great in the stuff she's done as Harley.

[@jaredrobinson7071]

Harley has lost all characterization. She can just be whoever or whatever. That's not what people want. Deadpool for all his good and bad is very Characteristic. You know what you get when you watch deadpool. You have ZERO idea what you're gonna get in a harley story.

[@harleybtasfan90s]

Facts

[@ragingrat7670]

I'd disagree. I think it's gone on long enough that I assume that it's going to be trash.

[@HapiUrepiYoropikuNe]

@@ragingrat7670 pfft yeah just different types of trash

[@redmistbluemiss]

It's disgusting that a character often defined as an abuse victim is now a scape goat for the writer's poorly disguised fetishes.

[@vapoet]

I'd call Harley in lingerie and covering herself in pudding is the true fetish. It is especially true since that was what was presented to kids.

[@skylandersfan6954]

Wouldn't be the first time DCs done thus unfortunately, my man Dick Grayson also suffers from this issue

[@Sammy.Bear.King1234]

Oh Harley, my Harley you used to be a titan. Now look you. Look how they massacred my girl 😭😭😭😭😭

[@flowerbloom5782]

Let us mourn for our icon

[@DanielDiCenso]

I feel your pain, Mista J!

[@jeremyknight9980]

She should've stayed as the Joker's sidekick instead of making her this gross adult character. Yeah in the comics she doesn't mix with the more violent versions of the Joker, he's having his own set of problems where they just make him a horror movie villain ranting about society..

[@harleybtasfan90s]

Facts

[@pocaiesc]

I'ts a problem with comic books in general moving away from being children's entertainment that adults also enjoy to just flat out adult entertainment with a it's for kids excuse for poor writing and bad characters.

[@JakeSmith-mq5dc]

@@pocaiesc Thank you. I just didn't enjoy comic books becoming like this. It should be family friendly entertainment, with niches for different demographics. Some can be more childish, some can be more adult. But they lost sight of that

[@ClassicHarleyQuinn]

It's either Harley stays with The Joker or the only other option I can see is she goes with Batman (Doesn't have be romantic, can just be friends) and we see how Harley struggles to be a hero and how Gotham rejects her because of her past etc. Showing its not as simple as just leaving the past behind. We get this in-depth look into her struggles with her mental health and how sometimes everything gets too much and she has small relapses but at the same time she support around her now and how that effects Harley more positively knowing that finally people care about her. That is the only way I see Harley without The Joker working.

[@JakeSmith-mq5dc]

@@ClassicHarleyQuinn Yeah, have her help the mental health of villains and goons alike aiding in their rehabilitation. Ending cycles. Lean into her therapist training and do her part in helping clean up Gotham's streets Heck, the Batfamily could use the help as well

[@georgeprchal3924]

She's an example of why you don't pander to shippers.

[@GilesHellier]

DC don't create characters, they create icons. Once the icon is made, they don't give a damn what they do with it. It's an absolute free for all. Don't get me wrong, the icons are fantastic, but the stories are no different in quality than any fanfic.

[@valentinkambushev4968]

Hell, some fanfics are better than the actual comics.

[@GilesHellier]

@@valentinkambushev4968 The percentage is shockingly in fanfic's favour. :)

[@MichaelJosephRojas]

You are so right. So many film choices I can practically hear the focus group while I am watching the movie and I adore these characters, I am not a Marvel fueled hater. Marvel is okay, but DC are my icons, and you nailed it.

[@GilesHellier]

@@MichaelJosephRojas You said something very simular to what I often say, I say "I'm not watching a movie, I'm watching a board room meeting." - I know exactly what you mean. It's like they create concepts that are SO amazing that they... don't know what to do with them. 🤣

[@brucebezold2714]

I heard from a source in the comics industry. That the people in charge of DC are like producers of Porn who don't know what to do with thier performers.

[@henrygarcia39]

As much as Arkham Harley brought back the characters popularity, it unintentionally started the trend of Harley NOT looking like Harley

[@wesmcinerny4524]

Indeed. I mostly prefer classic Harley.

[@loganw1232]

Same

[@justingochioco1121]

I find it bs that Harley Quinn gets more content then Wonder Woman

[@dantemcedgelord9331]

wondy is a sexist, faschist. you cant even change that by better writing, its the core of her character! its freaking hard to tell a story of hero diana, while staying true to her origins! in every comic with evil supes, its always wondy that pushes him to become an evil fashist dictator! wonda womane should be a flatout villian!

[@ab-gail]

WW has more quality.

[@KopperNeoman]

@@dantemcedgelord9331 The original classic Wondy didn't have this problem - she was an explicit rejection of feminism: on-the-nose as you can get without outright stating it.

[@T.Truthtella-n3i]

*fascist

[@campoyo3788]

@@dantemcedgelord9331 I'm 99% sure you don't even know what fascism is, or what makes someone sexist. 👀

[@antwonsmith8931]

She was my favorite character but leave it to these modern writers ruining her.

[@A.Person...Maybe...]

They've done it to almost every character at this point tbh

[@ToxicVex267]

Mary Jane fans: first time?

[@omegaman2846]

One of my main problems with modern Harley is that they took this quirky Saturday morning cartoon villain and turning her into an “adult” character. Every problem with Nu Harley tracks back to her being coveted by fan girls who grew up with her character in the 90s/ early 2000s growing up and deciding Harley belonged to them. They turned her into the version they wrote about in their fanfic and now she mostly just appears into adult rated content, the Suicide Squad movie (R rated) Harley stand alone movie (R rated) Harley TV show (MA rated) Suicide Squad game (M rated). Unlike Batman, Harley wasn’t passed on to the next generation, she was kept by the first generation to receive her.

[@pocaiesc]

I agree although I would say that has been a problem with most comic book characters and I have seen comic fans defend Batman comics and others being no longer made for kids but made mostly for adults. Although I will also say it's not only comics but a lot of media originally made for children.

[@jpjammin1876]

I agree to an extent, but Harley still shows up in things marketed towards younger crowds, LEGO Batman games and DC Superhero Girls, for example. Addressing the issue of making her geared toward adult, I think what compounds that issue is the writing is still incredibly juvenile. The jokes are often low-hanging fruit or toilet humor, as Jester Bell mentioned. It's the worst of both worlds. She used to be a character with depth who could tell decent jokes. Now, she's the punchline and it's not funny.

[@omegaman2846]

@ you’re right, she is in those things but as far as major projects where Harley is significant, it’s almost all adult oriented.

[@charlesrs]

Gatekeeping should be a thing protect pop culture from the woke weirdos

[@Cameron_Levine]

I recently have been rewatching B:TAS and oh my god how much I missed her like this. I like her Arkham iteration, not including the non-canon SS:KTJL, but B:TAS is so good. I watched her episode about her going off with Ivy and her relationship with Ivy works so much better as besties rather than girlfriends. Can we please go back to this?

[@harleybtasfan90s]

Agreed👍

[@Cameron_Levine]

@ username checks out

[@ClassicHarleyQuinn]

I want nothing more then for Classic Harley to come back.

[@lizpurr4176]

I agree too with the fact that they should stay at bffs than girlfriends, I am not homophobic and I respect same-sex relationships, but it’s getting tiring that friendship always turns into love, this isn’t just the case with gay pairs but hetero ones as well, we should normalize more friendship dynamics rather than making everything about attraction and sex.

[@BigJonB36]

On BTAS, it seems like she wants to have a relationship with Ivy, whereas Ivy sees her as disposable. In Superman TAS, when they team up with Live Wire, Ivy and Live Wire pretty much ignore Harley, making her more and more jealous (even though it's pretty clear Ivy all but hates LW)

[@Chris-th5fl]

It felt like lobo could have gotten closer into being deadpool then harley. It was weird how we watched the original harley and they turned her into what we see today.

[@harleybtasfan90s]

Agreed

[@Drums_of_Liberation]

He should have been DC's Deadpool considering he's most well known for being a parody of everything that was wrong with the edgy comics of the late 80s and 90s

[@lostartist7751]

Both are even regenerating mercenaries incapable of dying.

[@koopa159]

Growing up with the old cartoon and playing the Arkham games years later, it does bum me out how far gone Harley has become. I will never say her relationship with the Joker is healthy or anything, but that was the tragic nature of the character. Plus the great voice acting and writing of the cartoons really did wonders for her.

[@harleybtasfan90s]

Agreed!

[@cosmicspacething3474]

Harley’s relationship with the Joker is her equivalent of Batman’s parents dying. You can’t completely take it out, you just can’t.

[@skylandersfan6954]

​@@cosmicspacething3474I don't think people are saying that, people are moreso saying that her arc should be to get over it instead of justifying an abusive relationship

[@robertbeisert3315]

It's like having a show called "Grayson" starring a Richard Grayson who hates Batman and wants to be a villain.

[@dantemcedgelord9331]

richard grayson does hate batman, like evey robin (notcounting tim) does, after growing up! but hating batsy, doesnt make you a villian, especially if you got abused and turned into a one man army!

[@Another_Hibiki]

@dantemcedgelord9331 That's only true when incompetent writters are in charge, the only Robin who kinda hates Batman is Jason Todd (and that switches like clothes), and is mot because Batman made him into a Robin, but because he didn't killed the Joker and because Batman mainly doesn't agree with how he goes about his vigilantism. Richard became Robin because he would otherwise become a vigilante doing justice with his own hands and Batman wanted to teach him how to do it (it was mentioned Richard wanted to do justice with his own hands for the death of his parents before Bruce took him in), Jason would have become a lowlife robber without Batman's intervention, Tim became a Rpbin by choice and Batman took his son, Damian, as Robin to make him use his skills on non-lethal ways, the right ways.

[@KaneIshmael]

That show you're talking about does exist.It's called Titans,which stars the edgiest version of Dick Grayson.

[@gabriellemeche992]

Well you can do it from the time where he was Ric Grayson or that cursed time when Batman slept with Barbara. Also, in Batman Beyond iirc, Dick and Bruce are at odds even though a lot of time has passed. Plus he has been kind of mischaracterized from how he originally was. He had a lot of anger issues but as he becomes this s3x symbol, they made him a himbo.

[@walabixha1746]

Harley Quinn has always been a morally gray character tho . She was only a villain because she was in love with the joker. Also the Harley Quinn show is the only DC original animated show that is still getting consistent content so im sure it is selling well enough.

[@Deuteromis]

Harley is starting to feel like an overrated character because DC keeps fucking up her character.

[@shadowednight1600]

I can see DC putting Harley away or worst; what Marvel is doing to Spider-Man. The damage done to her may be unfixable

[@huntarthebarbarian8407]

Even if DC wants their own version of Deadpool, why can’t they just use Lobo? I feel like that will make more sense than Harley Quinn.

[@Cyberguy64]

Lobo makes way more sense. He's got the durability, the irreverence, the questionable morals that can be steered in the right direction. Everything lines up.

[@SkyVoid]

Poor Harley. A lost girl without the Joker, A lost character without a vision.

[@WeebGuru6]

It wasn’t just Harley who got ruined the other 2 members of the Gotham siren got ruined cat women and poison were just ruined especially ivy

[@chrischreative2245]

All women have to be “let’s’ be friends” for some reason

[@ab-gail]

Ivy’s change hurts the most for me. She’s my favorite! 💔

[@WeebGuru6]

@@ab-gail I know she use to be a guilty pleasure crush now she sucks

[@Gachagarry]

Ivy got the worst of it.

[@Luciphell]

TLDR: Harley was a character made to fit into a children's cartoon show. Nobody has been able to truly transition her into something more than that. They all face-plant.

[@FerraticaTheBard]

The most frustrating part is, Harley's so good as a side character! And her breaking up with Joker could genuinely lead to some fun places with a bit of creative thinking - I mean, imagine if it inspired her to go back to therapy, but specifically for heroes/villains/antiheroes, on the grounds that she has a bit more understanding/sympathy for how their lives can go and also they have literally no one else outside of Arkham to talk to, so no one can complain that she's practicing without a license. Break-and-enter couples therapy. Scheduling appointments with her 'clients' while they're in the middle of a crime. There's legit fun stuff you could do with a reoccurring side criminal character with her themes of therapy, abuse, and romance, especially if she's not above teaming up for the occasional crime spree or helping out the capes. And, like. Picture her crashing a Batman-Catwoman confrontation as their self-ascribed couples therapist. Jason Todd becomes one of her regulars, because he's finally found a way to get therapy that will still upset Bruce. It being a reoccurring gag that someone in the Bat Clan mentions that Harley got arrested for practicing without a license again. She has so much potential as a fun side character, but she feels like the sort who genuinely needs to not be on screen too much so that she's a sort of walking noodle incident source. Really tragic what they did with her instead. :(

[@liljenborg2517]

I think the biggest factor in DC’s inability to figure out what to do with Harley, you mentioned in your video, twice. It’s because DC became focused on, almost obsessed with, turning Joker from “the Clown Prince of Crime” (that is, a guy committing all the same sorts of crimes as other criminals, but he’d do it with ACME practical joke gizmos from joy buzzers to tangling “snake in a can” because it was fun and funny) into a violent, psychotic murderer who simply saw brutality as funny. They didn’t know what to do with Harley, because the place at Joker’s side where she fit had been erased by their new brutal take on Joker. The only way for them to fit Harley back where she belonged, was to dramatically alter their course with the Joker.

[@hope-cat4894]

You bring up a good point. Clown mobster Joker having Harley as a mafia moll makes more sense and allows for there to be more of a reason Batman doesn't kill the Joker. The more evil his character becomes, the less sense it makes for him to be alive compared to other supervillains.

[@skylandersfan6954]

Even when Joker wasn't like this, he still was abusive to her so that wouldn't work.

[@ryanjones358]

The best "solo" Harley story I've ever seen was an episode of Batman: The Animated Series called Harley's Holiday. That's the only way I think Harley can work as a solo character. Where you just have an unfortunate series of events and misunderstandings that snowball on top of each other into chaos. Not trying to make her Deadpool or give her a relationship with someone other than Joker.

[@harleybtasfan90s]

👏

[@lehahiah81]

The poison Ivy relationship always felt weird to me, because they felt more like sisters to me growing up; unlike that weird sailor moon censorship.

[@ryanjones358]

@lehahiah81 Apparently, in entertainment nowadays, if two characters of the same gender are really close, they have to be in a romantic relationship for "muh representation".

[@kanebarton6212]

That’s me too I’ve always seen their bond as sisterly in nature I’ve always never found an interpretation of Harley and ivy’s relationship as romantic that I’ve liked it’s definitely not in the Harley Quinn show

[@ClassicHarleyQuinn]

That is my favorite episode. It showed that Harley would struggle on her own. It shows that when Harley puts head to it, she can get out of Arkham, just needs help when she gets out.

[@Beast_better]

You deserve more recognition ngl. I can tell how much effort you put in these vids, and we appreciate it!

[@harleybtasfan90s]

I'm soooo burnt out on Hardly Quinnpool. It's like, either give us the real version (pre new 52) or don't bother

[@omniviewer2115]

I can offer one glimmer of hope: stuff like this happens in cycles. A character is like a rubber band in that it can only be stretched so far before it must snap back to its original shape. (No, I'm not the first person to say that, but it's worth repeating.) At some point, Harley will return to form. It's only a matter of time.

[@harleybtasfan90s]

🙏

[@flowerbloom5782]

I like that analogy.

[@collegerebel]

I could only hope for the same with Iceman, but I doubt making him gay is something that Marvel can just simply walk back on.

[@Drums_of_Liberation]

​@@collegerebelSure they can. Bobby is only gay because Jean literally did psychic conversion therapy no reason why she can't reverse it either.

[@KopperNeoman]

@@Drums_of_Liberation Conversion therapy is only bad when you're praying the gay away thoooooo, not when you're gaying the pray awayyyyyy Or something. Praise Christ.

[@tonygriego6382]

Dan DiDio. The architect of DC's downfall. At this point I'm convinced that the only thing that's keeping the character afloat are the cosplay people.

[@neroknight11]

At this rate we've spent more time with Harley as a member of the suicide squad or an antihero than actually being a henchman for Joker

[@dantemcedgelord9331]

does joker need her? joker should never had an sidekick: it took away so much of his character

[@skylandersfan6954]

Why is this an issue?

[@sammysstopmotionoas1996]

One word, mainstream. Harley went mainstream and the mainstream just doesn't and never will understand her, or most comic book characters for the most part. Also quick edit: The Suicide Squad came out simultaneously on streaming and in theaters during the pandemic. Most audiences at that time we're still a little scared of going out at the time and if they could just stay at home and see a movie, they would. In case someone brings up No Way Home, that was released ONLY in theaters. Also The Suicide Squad was received very well by audiences and critics. In fact, I think along with Peacemaker, it's the highest rated DCEU project.

[@harleybtasfan90s]

👏

[@flampagan1994]

You say mainstream, but that is the whole reason she was in the comics to begin with, she was very popular in a very popular kids shows, she became popular again in a very popular video game, it is the comics that didn't know what to do with her.

[@snowbunnie1113]

6:56 ah, ah, ah Jester. Harley does have something in common with Deadpool (aside from the fact they are both “crazy”). Harley has a red and black colour scheme and so does Deadpool. DC probably decided that she should be their answer to Deadpool, over any other more fitting character, just because their colours matched. 🤦‍♀️

[@QuatrinaVR]

Nevermind that Deadpool was Marvel’s parody of DC’s Deathstroke 🤦‍♀️ It’s amazing how incestuous comics have become to the point that it’s now detrimental

[@hope-cat4894]

I think people shipped them together, which led to writers wanting her to be more like him. I remember Deadpool and Harley Quinn fanart and couples cosplayers being a thing a few years ago. Edit: Jester mentioned it in the video about the shippers. I should have kept watching before commenting. 😅

[@handyman2101]

Did they forget about lord death man? He is literally (but not originally) Deadpool but DC

[@VileGlory]

Harley was one of the more successful patients of Arkham Asylum in the animated series. They should've just stopped or continued from that.

[@harleybtasfan90s]

Agreed

[@cheezemonkeyeater]

Suicide Squad: Kill Rocksteady's Credibility.

[@alexandermccabe556]

i really hate how their first move when they got her away from the joker was to make her a quirky lesbian villain god forbid she had an arc and left joker to you know fight crime after realizing how abusive he was no she goes on to be a criminal just not as mean of one as joker LOL

[@ToxicVex267]

Also wasn't her main goal to be a solo big villain am I the only one that feels she abandoned that goal far too quickly?

[@cosmicspacething3474]

I mean she kinda did that in her own animated series

[@walabixha1746]

I mean she stops being a villain in the harley Quinn show and tries to be a hero with the bat family but people also hated that 🤷 , and by people i mean the people that always complain on the internet. Since the Harley Quinn show actually has a big enough fandom to get a season 5 in January 16 of this year

[@alexandermccabe556]

@@walabixha1746 i meant when they first got her away from the joker and hadnt tried to make her deadpool yet the show still suffers from many of the harleyisms that i think have soured her character for most

[@skylandersfan6954]

Tbf she did stop being a villain

[@ianyoder2537]

I can't really think of an example of this trope beyond Nicalodian's planet Sheen and Sam and Cat, but some characters just work best as supporting characters and don't need to be the star. And that's OK. Sometimes having limited screen time and few but crucial appearances is exactly what makes a character special.

[@snowbunnie1113]

Joey, The Cleveland Show, The Patrick Star Show.

[@bensteinmeier7635]

The Minions from Despicable Me.

[@ab-gail]

True

[@joseleonardofarfanperez2838]

To anyone who miss classic Harley and would love to see a modern interpretation of the character, I recommend Harleen. What I consider the best Harley Quinn story ever made.

[@MalakiaLaGattaNera]

That is literally the only Harley comic I own alongside the original comic version of the Mad Love episode from Batman TAS. Everything else doesn't exist to me 😢, an og fan of the cartoon who grew up with Burton's Batman.

[@tell-me-a-story-]

Why do people need to pervert things like Batman comics? Everything children used to love has been hyper-sexualized. Children don’t get to just have anything. Just because your thing has adult fans, doesn’t mean you have to make it so kids can’t enjoy it.

[@flampagan1994]

Oftentimes adults appriciate things that are made for kids for that reason, nobody asked for the darker remake of avatar the last airbender or the dark continuation of he-man. Sometimes its fun to just enjoy kids stuff.

[@dantemcedgelord9331]

harls was sexuallized right from the get go! she was nothing more than fanservice, when she started off in btas!

[@Drums_of_Liberation]

​@@dantemcedgelord9331yeah okay Chris Chan

[@tell-me-a-story-]

@@flampagan1994 Right! When something is made for children and adults also enjoy it, it’s usually because they appreciate the innocence and fun art meant for children has to offer. It’s a big mistake when the person making it sees that a lot of adults enjoy it, and then immediately throws sex and extreme violence into every scene. Now all they’ve done is made it so kids can’t enjoy it at all anymore, and the adults who already liked it aren’t going to like it anymore. And people who already preferred dark and edgy stuff aren’t going to like it, because it still has the face of the kid’s character. These franchises who do this only get to keep existing because of their fan-bases of people who look and act exactly like Hal from MegaMind. 😂 But the Hals of the world ALREADY have plenty of stuff catered to them. Imagine if somebody decided to make an edgy hybrid live-action CGI remake of Bluey, where the dogs must eat each other to survive.

[@harbour08]

Honestly it's been perverted and messed up especially when you go back and see things as an adult. Now they're just doing what was already in their hearts.

[@GuukanKitsune]

The saddest thing about Modern Harley Quinn is that the people writing her are writing the concept of 'What would Harley be if she was done with Joker for good'. We have already seen, in the cartoon series that INTRODUCED her, what Harley would be if she was done with Joker for good. The answer is: NORMAL. She would go back to trying to be a regular person living a quiet life like she did BEFORE Joker. No more hijinks, no more violence, no more crimes. All that was just for JOKER'S sake, not her own. That was her obsession, her NEED for Joker in her life, driving her to make herself into what she thought would be _the perfect girl_ for Joker. If she tosses Joker aside she tosses that PERSONA aside as well. In Batman Beyond we see what happens to her when she doesn't have the OPTION of going back to Joker at all. She moves on. Legitimately goes straight. Becomes a regular lady living a regular life. Grows in wisdom and understands in retrospect just how AWFUL her relationship with Joker and time spent in that lifestyle had been to experience. Finds love, REAL love. Has the family she clearly always wanted. And now, perhaps with extreme methods but that is understandable given her trauma, is desperately fighting TOOTH AND NAIL to try and keep her twin granddaughters the DeeDees from falling into the same miserable trap of a life by repeating her mistakes because she sees in them _the vulnerable naive person she used to be_ and wants to save them from experiencing anything like what she went through.

[@justinlast2lastharder749]

You forgot the Detour to "I wanna be part of the Bat Family!" and infatuation with Dick Grayson in the Batman Animated series follow-up animated series.

[@GuukanKitsune]

@justinlast2lastharder749 No, I didn't. I omitted it because that all falls under the more modern writing silliness that is ignoring all this. Harley without Joker was already shown and established. She would just try and go back to her life before him, probably succeed at it in the end.

[@raelogan]

It's crazy that the one modern Harley Quinn that's the closest to the actual energy of the original is the one in the DC Lego games.

[@bentonbell3690]

They tried making their own Deadpool, but didn't know what made him popular in the first place

[@peterfrost377]

Marvel & Dc characters: Multiple writers. Mangas & Webtoons: Usually one author. Noticed the problem?

[@gamingguru2k6]

DC never cared.

[@dantemcedgelord9331]

they care more than marvel, thats for sure

[@A.G.P.115]

DC cares, cares about the money! But they never figured out how to make money😂

[@biguy617]

The origin of Harlequin is from the friendship Paul Dini with Arleen Sorkin. They knew each other from college. When Paul was coming up with the character, he saw Arleen playing a Jester with clown makeup in Days of our lives. Paul asked Arleen to do the voice of the character and the rest is history.

[@Ziko577]

With Arleen deceased now, I think after this last season of the show that they should just let the character die with her. The season 4 finale dedicated the episode to her which I found out from my brother who watches the show but I don't as I don't care for it.

[@NelsonStJames]

Trying to make a villain into an anti-hero, or even a hero, simply because the character is popular almost never works, and for it to work takes a tremendous amount of skill on the part of the writer and that level of skill is severely lacking at present in comics - and other forms of entertainment for that matter.

[@harleybtasfan90s]

Amen

[@justinlast2lastharder749]

I mean...Pro Wrestling has been doing it for a hundred years. It can be successful, if done right and it has reasons behind it.

[@skylandersfan6954]

The thing is, that was always the idea with the character and you can see that in the show she was introduced in. They didn't do it just cus she was popular

[@notyouraverageharleyquinnstan]

Harley Quinn is my all time favorite character too, and I basically agree with your takes on her. She had such interesting depth before they started to turn her into female Deadpool and it's such a shame. More fans need to see/read her origin story and stop thinking it's that she fell in acid. The new 52 was the beginning of the end for Harley. Her personality, looks and meaning were completely erased. I miss her complexity. You're right, there's nothing to do with this character once she's "Quinnpool". And they're clearly not gonna stop shoving this trash version down our faces so they really should just kill her off of comics and not have her in anything anymore. Just stick with selling the merchandise at this point. I'd much rather them ignore Harley instead of furthering her destruction. Great video👏thank you for explaining all of this!

[@shred79]

I will always say it, this caharcter was interesting in the first place cause it was a character who loves the Joker and was not only ensnared by his madness, she even motivated him and becomes some of a muse. Their relationship was toxic, crazy, but also interesting, entertaining and it was always fascinating to see how is more addicted by the other. Who needs who more? The hints that Joker has deep inside some humanity cause of Harley made him as a character much more dimensional. I say, both makes each other as fictional characters great. But now, DC made Harley such a boring cheap Deadpool Knock-Off that she lost all the things what makes her so wonderful in the animated series

[@skylandersfan6954]

Perpetuating a toxic relationship forever where Harley gets abused constantly is awful, even in the original show the point was that she got over the Joker and became a better person

[@Igor_Dust414]

I Absolutely love a channel dedicated to Harley Quinn We need to make Harley Quinn Justice❤🖤 I would love for you (when you are fully ready, you clearly need a deserved break and rest) to also talk on What How and Who The Real Harley Quinn is for you, going from BTAS, and how DC should have written Harley Quinn

[@ClassicHarleyQuinn]

I second this.

[@PhilipGipson-m9q]

That was a pretty exciting explanation you've given just now on the Harley Quinn character. I despise the abuse she's getting nowadays as a character.

[@EricOSullivan]

Great video, Theresa! I’m beginning to treat Harley like Star Wars. I’m a Lucas Era fan and ignore the Disney Era. So I am a fan of BTAS Harley and not the comics. Harley’s soul was Arlene Sorkin IMHO not whomever is writing or editing her. Original Harleen was a conscious choice maker who chose the life of crime. She works best as The Joker’s moll. For me. I know even saying this is sacrilegious to all the girls who love the girl boss modem version. Shes so boring now. The days of Mistah Jay and Puddin’ are a blemish on her character? Sheesh that’s taking comics and characters too seriously IMHO. Shes better as a bad guy.

[@missmeme3946]

i am surprised nobody talks about the fact that there was a time when harley quinn worked to athena and harley went to amazon Island she was almost become a member of the granny soldiers too

[@JohnHenrysaysHi]

You look very pretty, JesterBell! Your Harley Quinn overview last year is my all time favorite superhero explanation video I heard in my life!

[@Groggle7141]

1:32 I believe this has only happened with a few other important characters, Alfred (created for 40s serials) and Barbara Gordon (created for the 60s show)

[@oiwithyou]

This is why i dislike decoupling harley from the joker. I dont mind SEPARATING them, but the joker is the cornerstone of what turned harleen into harley. Without that nagging presence in the back, even if she's trying to get away from it in the story, she's missing something. That's my belief. Geel free to disagree, but that's how i think.

[@skylandersfan6954]

Joker is also an incredibly toxic and abusive partner, the point of her story is getting over him and becoming a better person

[@wannabehistorian371]

I just realized you have a Godzilla Minus One poster in the back. Based.

[@QuatrinaVR]

Harley Quinn was an intriguing character to me because she was a woman in an abusive relationship who had been manipulated into criminality. This was a very heartbreaking type of story to me because I grew up with a grooming, abusive, drug addict father and watched him try to murder my mother. It was powerful to see Batman do his best to try to help her in the show instead of writing her off as irredeemable.

[@cosmicspacething3474]

This.

[@VOLDGAMER1]

real harley quinn: doctor from arkham that was tricked into helping the joker and is blindly in love with him but he is only using her as a pawn which makes her a pretty sad character when you boil it down. fake harley quinn: girl boss lesiban that is a cheap rip off of deadpool

[@skylandersfan6954]

I'd rather take a "girl boss lesbian" (which she isn't even lesbian btw, she's bi) over blatantly justifying abuse by having her continuously stagnant in a abusive relationship instead of yknow. Getting over it

[@kayokango]

Ironically DC already had a Deadpool type character in Ambush Bug from whom Deadpool stole a good bit of his schtick.

[@ClassicHarleyQuinn]

Started with the legendary classic Harley Quinn then people started shipping Harley and Ivy and then DC assumed it was popular which isn't as evident by sales and then they became obsessed with it. That is where the downfall began. It just completely escalated from that point (New 52 onwards). Now Harley Quinn is no longer Harley Quinn.

[@lightborn9071]

CERTAIN people started shipping them, just like these CERTAIN people have always been shipping every other female character. And everyone else simply mistook it for a joke back then.

[@skylandersfan6954]

Harley and Ivy being a thing was not the downfall of her character be fr here

[@darrylldoucette6895]

Does it not make more sense to make Deathstroke DC's Deadpool?

[@cosmicspacething3474]

From what I’ve seen, Deathstroke is basically the opposite of Deadpool

[@Grevnor]

Somehow got to thinking about another DCAU canon immigrant with a similar function - Mercy Graves from Superman: The Animated Series, introduced as Lex Luthor's bodyguard / henchwoman. The similarity in function between her and Harley is obvious, as is their very different personalities (they work for very different people). She was not even remotely as popular as Harley, but she was introduced into the comics (a few months before Harley, in fact). But the important difference is that the writers apparently understood somewhat what the character was supposed to be, or at least didn't change her all that much, from what I understand. Unlike Harley's writers, who really shouldn't have been allowed to / forced to write for a character they neither understood nor cared about.

[@Enzo_Matrix92]

I remember when Marvel pushed Captain Marvel down our throats for a good 2 years and then bam! They stopped.

[@Drums_of_Liberation]

But Billy Batson is a DC character.

[@Weirdos22146]

​@@Drums_of_Liberation they are talking about the marvel character Captain marvel not Billy

[@Drums_of_Liberation]

​@@Weirdos22146there's only one Captain Marvel and that's Billy. You're thinking of Mar-Vell. I refuse to acknowledge that bastadized version of Carol Danvers as a Captain Marvel.

[@josephcittadino6541]

Ahh, the old Karl Manvers days, when they made poor Carol look like a man...

[@qwopiretyu]

Emos are what ruined Dr. Quinzel. It starts with Arkham Asylum.

[@EnvyDSin]

Harley Quinn used to be a nice addition to Joker with a nice suit. Then she became this overexposed, overrated, solo thing. And IMO, the closest Quinn is to a Marvel equivalent, especially in terms of popularity, would be more in the likes of Gwen Stacy than Deadpool.

[@chromesniper00]

You articulated this really well, Jester. I always felt for the longest time that I preferred Harley as a sidekick character to the Joker (or even Poison Ivy) cause I felt she was at her most interesting whenever she had someone to contrast her personality with. But this was a sentiment I felt I could never be vocal about during the new 52 era because liking Harley to be back with the Joker apparently meant you supported abusive relationships. Now that many years have passed and her popularity has declined a bit, I'm glad to see more people vocal about missing the original Harley and not liking her new version more and more. The only recent Harley run I liked was the Stephanie Phillips one (but the art was a hard sell and worked against what was a decent take on the character). As a fan, it just hurts seeing a character you once loved become so unrecognizable that it's just better to just distance yourself from it altogether to avoid disappointments. I completely feel you.

[@dokdirge]

I genuinely loved Harley. I grew up with her in BTAS, I even have her entire first comic run wherein she dies and goes to hell and comes back to life. It was a beautiful, poignant character arc for her. She grew as a character. This was pre - New 52. Whats more, her relationship with Poison Ivy was wonderful and, while at times flirty, NOT lesbianic (the very idea that Poison Ivy would be a lesbian is stupid considering her powers). Two broken women leaving eachother mentally better off than how they found one another. Harley learned to stand up for herself, Ivy started to allow herself to be more open to people. It really rustles my jimmies that the new writers seemingly cant comprehend a healthy relationship that doesnt involve romance.

[@lightborn9071]

Thing is, they cannot imagine anything good and healthy.

[@cosmicspacething3474]

I feel like Ivy being Bi could work. Why should her seduction powers work on just one gender?

[@KopperNeoman]

Remember, the "love that dare not speak its name" is a code phrase for "the lust that never shuts up". These people do not understand love AT ALL, they mistake it for lust. Entirely.

[@milli5968]

How is ivy being a lesbian stupid when she is consistently portrayed as NOT liking men?

[@dokdirge]

@@milli5968 She hasnt always been portrayed as such. Thats a nu52 thing. Its doubly stupid considering her pheromone/lipstick powers -only- work on men (classicly). Simping by saying 'hurr well characters evolve' renders established lore and canon meaningless, in which case our two opinions are equally foolish. She's a femme fatale, like Catwoman.

[@hope-cat4894]

Harley Quinn without the Joker should go back to being Harleen Quinzel. The episode Harley's Holiday showed that a reformed Harley Quinn without the Joker exists in a limbo state between her old identity as a therapist civilian and a supervillain and her stories should be focusing on her struggles with that if they want to keep her as a good guy. She really shouldn't want to be a clown themed character anymore if they don't want her associated with the Joker anymore.

[@The.Elk.of.Antioch]

Hail Lord Xenu and Hail Princess Xena, Long may they reign over us all!

[@josep754]

Frankly i think that Harley stagnated by being that deadpool type of character, her story should follow the path of Joker goon to hard realization to independant to a person who has to deal with the consequences of what she did while with the Joker and that sort of story isnt a happy deadpool comedy sort of story, she could be perfect for mature stories about love and relationships but DC didn't make her into that

[@flowerbloom5782]

Yeah I think we even get to see her recover from Harley in cartoon right?

[@yoruemiya9196]

That’s because sad people don’t buy stuff so instead they went the Deadpool route

[@williamfrank962]

I actually really liked the Arkham version before the whole suicide squad game debacle. That Harley to me is a good lesson in how the manipulated can become just as violent as their manipulations even beyond death and Harley in that to me is the most “realistic” depiction of what a girlfriend of a psychopathic, murderous, gang leader clown would be.

[@ulicesveracruz2202]

In conclusion dc should focused more on condimint king

[@genericguy5998]

Where’s the extended condiment verse

[@jessemurphy2158]

Poison Ivy is my favourite DC character, and I would love for her to get more recognition in media. But seeing what they did to Harley, it makes me sceptical 😅

[@MaoRatto]

skeptical*

[@Not-Ken-Molestina]

No there are not trying to make her Deadpool. What happened was DC got a bunch of sheltered writers with no lived experience and. They just wrote they twisted fanfiction and fetishism.

[@theLikou1]

The true reason why she was not part of the Batman comics is because the creators didn't like that she wasn't from comics originally. It's dumb pride.

[@bastionunitb7388]

I despise how much plot armor she has nowadays. DC has such a hardon for her that she never takes damage and when she does its comedic. The scene in suicide squad where she guns down like 20 guards in a hallway while none of them shoot her was so frustrating.

[@AlexanderMartinez-kd7cz]

she was conceived in the peak of DC (the DCAU) and was taken into the trash heap that is modern DC. it was the only possible outcome. and let's not even talk about the feminist arc.

[@N03_03]

Marvel and DC have really gone downhill lately. Marvel’s biggest problem being its editorial, while DC’s biggest problem is that there’s no editorial.

[@matane2465]

Harley Quinn finished her character arc in the original Batman, the animated series by the episode Harley's Holiday. Mad Love should have taken place before Harley's Holiday for her proper character development. But the writers keep regressing her character.

[@ClassicHarleyQuinn]

She was a new character at the time I just take as they were experimenting with Harley to see how she gets along with other characters etc but I see what you mean.

[@xenitation]

I would have loved to see a Harley Quinn origin movie where it’s a more grounded dark psychological thriller (no magic or supernatural) with her slowly being manipulated and twisted by the joker, being made to doubt certain events and even empathize with him as he lies to her. To watch her go from a professional psychiatrist to being the joker’s plaything. With no romantic tones either.

[@TiberiusX]

Yeah. I actually hate Deadpool outside of the movies. Cosplayer deadpools are a bane on existence. Cartoon Deadpool sucks. Comic Deadpool is just annoying.

[@eringreen4514]

Finally someone realizes.

[@ClassicHarleyQuinn]

With Deadpool there's a fine line between having something great and something flat out annoying very easy to cross over it.

[@eringreen4514]

@@ClassicHarleyQuinn Fair enough.

[@josesarango3408]

90s Deadpool before he became a joke, was great

[@TiberiusX]

@josesarango3408 to be fair, it's mostly the cosplayers and memes that annoy me about Deadpool, I've only read a couple comics, but I can imagine that before 2009 he wasn't as annoying. By 2012 though he was mostly insufferable. Somehow Ryan can pull him off though. Probably because he's actually funny.

[@rinakitty9283]

I liked the old Harley Quinn, she was so relatable 😭

[@jman3657]

these people dont want to learn how to make better comic books. they want to find ways to force their agenda down peoples throats without making it so obvious

[@dreamspheree]

Since around 2012 all comics characters became over exposed and exhausted. They now digging up shit line and blaster them until people start on hating them.

[@misterl0gic]

They're making Harley Quinn into Deadpool? Uh oh. Are we gonna get Blake Lively as Harley next?

[@SimpleTricksNonsense]

She became embraced by single moms who have a lot of baggage, listen to party music and make bad decisions. Her pirate outfit phase, the roller derby phase then the live action appearances. I can see her becoming their Deadpool. Deadpool, especially in the convention scene gives license to an attention starved portion of the population. Harley has essentially been that at conventions for the past nearly 10 years.

[@fakshen1973]

The animated Harley Quinn works so well... because she's in an animated universe. Animated characters can be hyperbolic.. exaggerated... But making live action versions of them can just wind up flat or corny. To put her in comic books, you have to make her much darker of a character to fit in that universe... especially if you have established a dark tone already regarding the relationship between The Joker and Batman. Harley Quinn would do well in live action if we did another campy version of Batman ala Adam West. I just don't think you can really make her work unless she's an absolute bubble-head or deeply unhinged and diabolical.

[@shadowking9739]

Deadpool started off as a Deathstroke rip-off but he became his own character. Harley Quinn was taken in the opposite direction, having her own distinctive personality and traits but was turned into a rip-off of another character (Deadpool). I really wish Harley is rebooted back into her original iteration because I really adore that version and she needs it.

[@GaZum22]

People overlook that Harley and Deadpool have always been similar, both traumatized tragedy behind the comedy characters with a edgy and clever slapstick sense of humor. The Deadpool game then ruined Deadpool but made him popular despite the game’s fandom further pushing “Memepool” and that push indirectly ruined Harley Quinn.

[@DeadSilence115]

FACTS literally everyone forgets Deadpool literally had the same cautionary tale in Joe Kelly’s run.

[@SosaSalsa99]

IM SO GLAD U SAID THIS SHES ALWAYS BEEN LIKE THIS just not like memepool

[@Sonubuz_27]

Facts 🔥🔥

[@DarknerSoul]

Just pretend Harley doesn't exists outside of BTAS and life is good

[@ShadeszOfficial]

16:00 they were appealing to a "modern audience" at that point.