Why I HATE Weird Bad Ships Destroying My Favorite Characters and Stories

[@realjesterbell]

Have you ever had a story or character you liked disrupted by a bad relationship?

[@notyouraverageharleyquinnstan]

They should have their own character destruction support group😂

[@LoganTocker]

Batman TAS the Bruce x Babs Ship

[@sincerelynotme3522]

Batman Beyond with the Barbara and Bruce thing. Soured the show.

[@LoganTocker]

​@sincerelynotme3522 what do you mean soured the show?

[@GabiBrooks]

Yup. Yucky af​@@LoganTocker

[@vnom84]

Ivy being a good guy because gay is hilarious because for most of her character history she'd kill every man, woman, and child on the planet to make sure a dandelion could grow another three inches taller.

[@Chinshellbuford]

😱 oh God it's even worse then I thought CHILDREN TOO!?

[@vnom84]

@@Chinshellbuford Children are humans, Ivy wants every human dead for a plant utopia, yeah Ivy would do it. Probably a lot quicker than most of the Batman rouges

[@strategicperson95]

​@@vnom84 that probably is why she's portrayed as good nowadays, cause the Green Movement is another religion the establishment cater too. Despite Ivy is supposed to be everything wrong about the Green Movements Extremist rhetoric.

[@yelsahblah3270]

This. All of this. It was weird to even give her a relationship and if she was in one, it should have been with a botanist.

[@looniemoonie5955]

@@Chinshellbuford "not just the men... but the women and children too"

[@GreayWorks]

Seeing Poison Ivy and Harley be slotted as pretty much good guys now by DC is so weird because it's still cannon Poison Ivy has committed a lot of SA, it would be like if the Purple Man dated the Hobgoblin and people just acted like what happened with a lot of women didn't happen.

[@Harleyxjokerforever]

DC seemed to being trying to walk back Ivy SA attempts. Recently in her solo series they had a panel of Ivy and Batman meeting for the first time and it told that Ivy never used her powers on him and Batman was just unwilling to admit he was attracted to her so he blamed Ivy's pharmoans instead. Which is one of the hardest recons I've seen in comics in a while.

[@memevondank1197]

​​​​@@Thed538dhsk For ivy 1. Alot of versions of Ivy have her commit a lot of SA so presenting those iterations in a healthy romantic relationship leaves a sour taste in my mouth atleast 2. Ivys utter contempt for humanity is a massive part of her character so even versions of her who dont sa others really shouldnt be in a relationship without being redeemed so if Ivy ever gets a partner she shouldnt be a criminal cause to get a partner she has to overcome the hatred that makes her a criminal And for harley quinn 1. I repeat the same point for ivy most versions of ivy simply wouldnt care to help her because she abuses people and presenting an abuse victim getting into a relation with another abuser and presenting that as healthy is bad 2. If Harley gets over joker she should get a redemption not just do more crime as a bonnie and bonnie duo keeping the clown motif no less

[@ReidosDuendes-is5wx]

Women can do anything. In real life and in the comics.

[@МышковаОльга]

​​@@Thed538dhskman, what zaza are you on? He said if harley goes over joker she should redeem herself

[@МышковаОльга]

​@@Thed538dhskher being lesbian have nothing to do with it, she could get redemption arc and still fuck girls

[@GabiBrooks]

For me the worst one ever has to be Batman and Batgirl. And not because of their age difference, not even because of the fact he knew her since she was a kid, but because Batman is defined by his integrity in my eyes and I just can't cope with how he would get into a relationship with a kid, his son's girlfriend no less. Batman is supposed to be the hero. Some other people pointed out ships like Eric and Christine from Phantom of The Opera and fair enough, but in those situations the male is kind of an antagonist or misunderstood villain from the start. Did I mention that Batman is supposed to be the hero???

[@GabiBrooks]

@@Thed538dhsk yikes

[@7minutesguy]

Still better than batman and Talia

[@GabiBrooks]

@@7minutesguy oh yeah, don't get me starting on that one 😒

[@OsloTime]

Barf 🤢 this is so gross! I completely agree! They need to stop. I couldn't believe that it wasn't just random fan fiction writers that pair them up! When I first heard I was like wtf? They aren't a couple! 🤮

[@justoneguy2487]

Bruce x Barbara is the shitstain on the otherwise legendary DC Animated Universe

[@saj-manthesonicfan1893]

The Ivy Harley ship has never worked for me, simply because Poison Ivy doesn't like humans. At all. She is 100% for plants, part of her psychosis is her complete and total disillusionment and hatred of humanity thanks to the mutation that turned her into Poison Ivy. The only character that she would _ever_ hook up with, would be Swamp Thing. And that would be a fascinating ship, thank you to Injustice for exploring their dynamic a little bit. That's the Poison Ivy ship we deserve. Not Harley.

[@altalia07]

Yeah!! Exactly! Ivy and Harley never ever made sense to me.

[@SWANSWAN-nc7ds]

@@altalia07 Harley is a psychopath that would torture children just for fun and Ivy hate human all she care about is plant. It would make more sense if it were Ivy and swamp thing.

[@NaughtyJuri]

Harley is nothing without joker her whole damn gimmick is because of him they both crazy clowns her name is still Harley Quinn too even in Arkham games , Lego and current variant covers and some books you still see Joker and Harley still yet someone at DC has a fanfic obsession, and poison ivy has shown she does not care about humans. The most important thing is her plants even in Batman Beyond she leaves Gotham behind. Poison Ivy can take down Superman , level up a city yet she is reduced from a nature queen to a sex toy let’s not also forget she try to make her own babies because. At Best they BFF and Arkham cell mate nothing more

[@emma_luce_1123]

Yeah, she still barely tolerates her BFF, Harley. She's just less bad

[@samflood5631]

What about Kite Man and Poison Ivy? Or Kite Man and Golden Glider?

[@MagnumCreed]

I Hated the Starfire making her "empowered" by hooking up with everyone and acting like she didn't remember Grayson, and the Batgirl and Batman thing.

[@kirbyfan4]

Almost every romantic relationship in DC has been ruined. Even Vikor and Nora Fries aren’t even allowed to be together or even in love anymore and Vikor’s entire reasoning for becoming a villain was to be with his wife at least one more time before ethier of them dies

[@denkerbosu3551]

@@kirbyfan4 Did you see the supposed leaked design for Ms Freze for the SS: KIll the Justice League game? If I were Viktor I also wouldn't want that around.

[@WrathDrago]

@@denkerbosu3551 You must see how they portrayed Nora Fries in the Harley Quinn show, my brother in christ, seesh it's quite bad.

[@Katetanic]

You talking about red hood and the outlaws? The one where they gave her memories back because of so much backlash?

[@MagnumCreed]

@@Katetanic Yes. It made me sick.

[@BP-dn9nv]

I hate how badly Marvel has ruined Spiderman and MJ's relationship just to try and ship him with other characters. I'd care less if the ships actually led to something, but it usually just results in him going back to MJ and them driving a contrived wedge into their relationship again.

[@itsdantaylor]

The problem to me seems like there's two 'camps' and marvel trying to appeal to both. 1: those who love peter x mj together and happy and 2: those who become disinterested in Spiderman if he's married and happy because that frankly isn't what it seems they come to Spiderman for. So they bring them together for 1 group, and then break them apart for the 2nd group and OVER AND OVER AND OVER it goes. To the point where you get a 3rd group for people like me who are 'i'd rather they NEVER happen again to avoid this cycle repeating over and over' lol.

[@sincerelynotme3522]

All these ships had no business being ships in the first place. A lot of the tine it's a self insert and that's the worst thing you can do.

[@notyouraverageharleyquinnstan]

💯

[@jmag4527]

Exactly!

[@ClassicHarleyQuinn]

_"These are facts"_ *_~ Peter Griffin_*

[@BrightWulph]

Yep, a self-insert wearing the skin of a preestablished character. Like Batman and Barbra. XO

[@Ziggaton]

@@BrightWulph P much this although I'll also say it help tremendously when they have the self awareness to implant not only their strengths but flaws as well

[@Luciphell]

1:00 Writing went from "Storytelling for people" to "Storytelling for people LIKE ME" Plain and simple.

[@cxncxrtmxstxr]

* "Storytelling for people LIKE ME AND ONLY ME"

[@Rakso5809]

Every single writer writes stories they want to read or see, no one writes stuff for others. And that's fine. But the problem is, that nowadays, people take stuff that was made by people with different likes and cherished by an audience with a different tase and twist it to fit their preferences instead of creating their own content. Those things are fine in fanfictions, but they are not fine to do to the original work. And the thing is the audience that would like original content like that won't watch it because they do not actually like the original works, and they too see that the new directions don't fit, and of course, the fans will also turn away. So this originally brilliant stuff gets eradicated and destroyed.

[@chocov1233]

@@Rakso5809 Well said.

[@Drekal684]

@@Rakso5809 I call this the fanfictionisation of media. When you actually start to look at all media through the lens of "what if I was reading this on AO3?" you start to pick up on what's going on.

[@afellowpotato]

I think that's called a target audience

[@snowbunnie1113]

Weirdly the worst example of two characters being destroyed by a badly written relationship is Batman and Catwoman. A relationship that was popular for +80 years! I used to love their dynamic until Tom King’s Batman run. Both characters did nothing but spout nonsense about how “The Bat needs the Cat” and the like. Bruce became an obnoxious simp for Selena who had no personality whatsoever. I know DC tried to walk things back by cancelling the wedding, but it was already too late (and really the wedding itself was not the problem). King continues to get work at DC to destroy other characters and Batman, Cat-woman and their relationship have never been fixed in mainline comics.

[@ClassicHarleyQuinn]

Never been a fan of Batman and Catwoman.

[@snowbunnie1113]

@@ClassicHarleyQuinn that’s fine. I just angry because no only were both characters written horribly out of character and unlikable in general for this story (for no reason) even if you don’t like BatmanXCatwoman as a couple, King just butchered both characters and made Batman look like a loser who puts Selina above Gotham and his own family, and made Catwoman herself unsalvageable in the comics. TLDR, Tom King and his insistence on pushing “BatCat” when he didn’t have the talent to write it well is the reason why Batman comics took a nosedive in quality and sales.

[@ClassicHarleyQuinn]

@@snowbunnie1113 I very much dislike Tom King. His Batman run is awful.

[@snowbunnie1113]

@@ClassicHarleyQuinn A lot of people dislike Tom King, and his garbage takes on characters he writes for…and yet DC think of him as the second coming of Alan Moore, currently letting him trash Wonder Woman and The Penguin. James Gunn promoted him to lead writer of the new DCU and Jim Lee will probably hand him control of editorial once he retires. And DC is confused as to why they don’t make money. 🫠

[@ClassicHarleyQuinn]

@@snowbunnie1113 Failing upwards, common occurrence these days. The mind boggles. Companies wonder why they are sinking.

[@stackingspaghettisauce4271]

I will never in all my life forgive modern DC comics for taking Tim Drake, my favorite character, and breaking up his relationship with Stephanie, which had decades of history, off-screen to get him together with a new character he met like 5 seconds before. And then this character figures out Tim's identity like it's no big deal as if it's not one of the best kept secrets in comics? Come on! And I know the only reason they did any of this was so that they could have a "Robin is bisexual" headline

[@OsloTime]

I recently started to read Red Hood and Arkham stuff along with Batman. I couldn't believe it! Tim and Steph are so much better than whatever the heck this new crap is. 🖕 Big middle finger to these writers and their awful ships! 😂😂😂

[@snowbunnie1113]

“Bisexual” yeah right. Tim Drake will never be allowed to be in a straight relationship ever again, just like Harley and Ivy never will again, because that would “regress the character”.

[@valentecarrillo4259]

With Tim and Stephenie history how can people not be upset about it. All those years with these two and they f it up.

[@denkerbosu3551]

Let me tell you, he's gay. The bi part is bs, they'll not write him with a woman again.

[@BiggieTrismegistus]

Bernard was an old character from Bill Willingham's run on _Robin._ More specifically he was an old character who talked about how hot Tim's stepmom was and whom Tim didn't like very much. Thus it was only natural that Bernard would turn out to be a gay and in a relationship with Tim.

[@Graymanlegend]

I wanna point out how gross it was to “magically” age up superboy just to make him gay. They really ruined super sons for those extra brownie points.

[@denkerbosu3551]

Yup, I still remember the cover of him holding a sign against global warming. Like, that's the most gen alpha wannabe influencer thing I've seen.

[@GiuseppeMario-d8y]

You can thank Brian "I f*cking hate children _and_ the people who have them" Bendis for that one. Look up every story that guy wrote when a kid was a prominent character and bask in the first half of the story falling over itself to write the kid out of it.

[@kirakoraawesome]

Why did they have to age him up??? Like, they made an original character to pair him with, why couldn't they make a character his own age??

[@jaredgarcia8638]

Bi but your point still stands

[@azariahgarcia8958]

I LOVED super sons. I have trouble getting into dc comics, I’m more of a marvel guy, but super sons was one of the first ones i kept up with weekly. Damian and Jon’s friendship was just the best and I HATED that they aged Jon up, cause it ended the childhood friendship dynamic they had. For me, it was the start of Damian getting an actual likeable personality

[@lordtrigon1733]

Imo Natasha and Bruce wouldn't have been a thing if Janet Van Dyne hadn't been cut from the first Avengers, Janet is the type of character who could've had that calming connection with Hulk without being romantically involved with him.

[@denkerbosu3551]

Nah, they had to make her a girl boss on the Antman movies first.

[@lordtrigon1733]

@@denkerbosu3551 I would say they've done Wasp an incredible disservice with the way they've handled her in the movies.

[@John93965]

@@lordtrigon1733 The Black Widow/Hulk relationship deserved better. So shut up.

[@kingpablothe1stoverlordoft871]

@@John93965 it deserved to not exist lol.

[@John93965]

@@kingpablothe1stoverlordoft871 Yes it did. so shut up.

[@acemarvel1564]

The plot pretty much became a casualty in the wake of these toxic shipping wars

[@stardust948.]

They did Black Widow so dirty

[@CharlesH-t9r]

They never had Natasha speak with a thick Russian accent Now I get why in the MCU she didn't on the job because she's considered one of the best espionage spies on earth But why couldn't they have had her speak in her natural Russian thick English accent around the avengers or Nick?? Imagine the shock on Tony's face after finding out? And that's not on Scarlett because she openly said she wanted to but the executives didn't want her too because she actually did a very good Russian accent in "Lucy"

[@denkerbosu3551]

@@CharlesH-t9r Executives downright tell you not to check out the original stories of your characters. This is coming from the directors and actors in the MCU interviews.

[@thedarkestfateful]

I would have thought she’d have a little something going on with Hawkeye, but nope…she gets it on with Hulk out of nowhere.

[@PrincessLockette]

​@@thedarkestfatefulshe's dating hawkeye in the comics. Originally she was supposed to end up with him in the films too... and we all know how well that played out.

[@CharlesH-t9r]

​​@@PrincessLockette I mentioned in another comment section Marvel and Wb DC has a bad track record of completely nerfing legit and fan favorite relationships (Luke Cage and Jessica Jones, Gambit and Rogue recently, John Stewart and Hawkgirl/Harbinger, Natasha and Clint , and Cloak and Dagger) While forcing Marvel and DC characters together that never dated for no reason for a bunch of non comic fans who love toxic relationships which is extremely unsettling

[@gggardens8941]

I find it sinister when writers ship characters who have a bad relationship. Take Eric and Christine Daae' (from The Phantom of the Opera). Some fans were annoyed Christine left the Phantom, ignoring the fact that he had deceived her into thinking he was an angel, sent by her father. He hypnotized, kidnapped and tried to force her to marry him! He murdered innocent people and threatened to kill Raoul de Chagny. Running away made perfect sense. Love Never Dies is basically a love-letter to the Eric&Christine shippers. It ignores Eric's hard lesson and his deeds are forgotten. Christine's resilience means nothing. It felt like fanfiction.

[@rubenduenas5881]

Yeah, I watched The Phantom of the Opera a year ago and thought: "This is a terrible romance movie. Why do people consider it a classic?!"

[@asiabrew81]

@@rubenduenas5881 I feel like young girls are doomed to go through this phase of finding red flag relationships of classic literature and film romantic. The best anyone can do is point them out, but that gets criticized nowadays. I remember a creator here talked about how she challenged her teacher about how HORRIBLE The Taming of The Shrew was and how down bad the teacher was for the story and defending it but was essentially doing it using their own head canon. Messy stuff.

[@SkullQueen33]

Oof, The Panthom of the Opera discussion hits too close home... I read the OG book before seen the movie or the musical, and boy was I surprised of finding that people often romantizes Erik's literal kidnapping and torture success. I got on a pretty awful fight when I defended a videogame that actually takes the OG route of abusive Erik because people was saying to me 'NO, he loves her, this game is bad adaptation' 😑

[@GabiBrooks]

@@asiabrew81 that was literally me as a teenager. Maybe it's cause the music tricks you into thinking it's like a magical connection or something. Now I cringe thinking back 😂

[@GabiBrooks]

@@SkullQueen33 had no idea there was also a game. Good to know.

[@pessimisticprofessorfarnsw3241]

The Harlivy ship is either a self insert, a fetish, or both and it irritates me to no end.

[@VimRazz]

@@thehacker4012 Being annoyed at the way homosexuality is aggressively fetishized by a lot of straight people isn't homophobia. Get off your high horse.

[@VimRazz]

@@thehacker4012 No, that's not what I mean, and I don't believe that you're dumb enough not to know it.

[@VimRazz]

@@thehacker4012 No, I don't believe you're being sincere -- especially since the video already discusses the issue so well in the context of both homosexual and heterosexual relationships.

[@ClassicHarleyQuinn]

​@@thehacker4012I think Harlivy is exactly those words. There's no and never will be a good version of it. In fact each version gets weirder and more out of character.

[@pessimisticprofessorfarnsw3241]

@@thehacker4012 if it makes you feel any better I can cross that border happily. A big reason is because they turned my childhood crushes into clam licking lesbians. But also it's because it's toxic as fuck for Harley to go that hard into a relationship essentially on the rebound with the literal first person that showed her friendship. I think her and nightwing are better and I even think her and creeper make a better couple especially if she's really dedicated to the anti hero thing. Ivy and Harley scream close as sisters to me and I think the writers had something that motivated them to taint that be it self insert, or yes, fetish. Hell it was even shown in the Harley show the first episode of season 3.

[@frankiefrazer2988]

I'm a beetlejuice fan, but my god, are the shippers nuts. Aside from Lydia being a minor. beetlejuice, and Lydia, have no chemistry, little screen time together, and the writers made it clear that them being together in any way is bad. Shippers are hoping they get together in some way in the sequel, and i pray that the writers aren't dumb enough to entertain those people.

[@snowbunnie1113]

Excuse me WTF? Did they not watch the movie? Lydia was trying everything in her power to get away from Beetlejuice. She definitely did not want to marry him!

[@Omnicrush333]

Yep it's weird... They even point out in the fucking musical how weird it is like HUH. This also is prominent in the Labyrinth fanbase people ship Sara/Jareth and everytime I see it in my feed of gorgeous Labyrinth art I just 🤮. Sara is 16, Jareth is an adult and David Bowie literally declined having a kiss scene just it's so gross.

[@imamajesticseahorse2548]

.........didn't Beetlejuice only want to marry Lydia because then it would mean he could roam around the mortal world freely?

[@Omnicrush333]

@@imamajesticseahorse2548 Yep

[@ClassicHarleyQuinn]

The second one is made by Tim Burton so I it's probably safe as he just seems to focus on making good films. Not saying he hits the mark all the time but you can see the effort is there.

[@birdiejett3163]

I appreciate that you are someone who’s actually into comics and explains why these relationships are badly done, rather than just vaguely ranting about how “gay bad, everything woke now”

[@berenerchamion4998]

One of the most stupid ships ever has to be Amazon’s Rings of Power Guyladriel & Sauron. I mean… wtf???

[@ClassicHarleyQuinn]

Read the books, you'll get the story far better.

[@berenerchamion4998]

Thanks 😂

[@ClassicHarleyQuinn]

​@@berenerchamion4998No Problem. Start with The Silmarillion. There's also various books like The Fall of Gondolin, Beren and Luthián, The Fall of Numenor etc which expands on various things in the main books. I'm currently reading Unfinished Tales.

[@berenerchamion4998]

My Yt nickname is literally from a Silmarillion character.

[@ClassicHarleyQuinn]

​@@berenerchamion4998I didn't even notice your name and I should because I've read the book and others multiple times including the book made focusing on Beren. I am ashamed but I blame it on the alcohol that I've had. 😂

[@colehansen11]

This is also why I really appreciate Shang Chi and Katie’s relationship. There’s such a clear understanding of trust and closeness there without the “will they/wont they” drama. Platonic Intimacy needs more good portrayals.

[@henrygambles3652]

@@Thed538dhskthey could have at least said Gilgamesh was married at some point over his goodness knows how long lifespan and could have been interesting for his dynamic with Circe

[@CharlesH-t9r]

I actually liked that with Natasha and Clint at least that was built up and both have chemistry

[@SirFailsalot91]

Let's not forget that Iceman, who was a well known skirt-chaser, was brainwashed by Jean Gray into being gay, all so Marvel could say "We've got a gay superhero!"

[@VentWilsn]

Wtf

[@SirFailsalot91]

@@VentWilsn it feels like forever ago now, but instead of introducing a new character or taking a character with very little history and confirming they're gay, Marvel literally just decided "Yeah, Bobby Drake might be a womaniser, but we need a gay superhero, so we'll just make him gay somehow," and the way they executed that was for Jean Gray to gaslight Bobby into accepting he's gay using her telepathy to mind wipe him.

[@denkerbosu3551]

@@VentWilsn I'll give more context: at some point, they took the original team of x-men from the past to present day. So we had young and old Iceman. In an issue, young Iceman said something "Hooray for our hot teacher" or smth, basically joking around. Tehn Jean (who had been recently training with her powers and gotten results) took him away, asked him what is he doing, and told him he's gae. He said "Oh, yeah!" and they went back all smiles. That makes no sense, so the fans made the headcanon that "Jean wanted a gae friend, so she conversion therapied young Iceman" lmao From then on, CURRENT DAY, ADULT Iceman is gay. So they brought back the past teen version of him, made him gae, and that made current Iceman gae.

[@richborn6700]

Funny enough it was the time displaced original 5 X-Men being brought to present day. So the Ice Man we grew up with who WAS and still IS a skirt chaser was confronted with a paradox of his young self being gay, despite that new story wrinkle coming 50 years after his original debut. Just confusing for no reason. It's like if Spider-Man met of today met himself at 15 and instead of crushing on MJ or Gwen was actually gay for Harry or Flash with zero story hints towards that change in sexuality

[@psionicflames]

i'm cracking up, that isn't even close to what happened, and there are plenty of gay people in the real world who pretend to be straight and chase after the opposite sex. throughout his history bobby was written as closeted, we see three instances in the 90s. the first is him going shopping with jean, where she says scott hates shopping with her, and bobby alludes to her knowing why he liked going with because of her telepathy. then emma frost takes over his body, pushing his powers to their limits, and when she gives it back she tells him if he wants to be stronger he needs to figure out his inner issues (being closeted, a reality a lot of closeted queer people deal with.). bobby asks rogue to go with him to see his parents, which is written as a gay man who needs a fake girlfriend (which is typically called a beard) and for the whole story he talks about his dad never accepting him. even back then people speculated that comic was about bobby coming out, which also took place during the legacy virus arc, because of the massive amount of queer subtext (uncanny x-men 319 i believe, if you actually like reading comics). jean never brainwashed bobby, she pulled him aside after he kept making comments about magik and the other girls and women around that team. she got her telepathy early and could tell he was putting on a front and pretending to be straight, and she could also tell the adult version was very unhappy. she pulled him aside and told him he was gay, which he needed to hear so he could come out. yes it could've been written better (and by a queer writer), but it is what it is. if you want more proof, he's been pole dancing, hanging out with his best guy friend angel on all men trips, making ice palaces, and being awkward around northstar. as for his previous straight relationships, none of them were good and they didn't last for a reason. and again, there's plenty of gay people who remain closeted and act straight. you might even know some! and if marvel just wanted a gay superhero... they could've just given northstar, rictor, shatterstar, anole, wiccan, hulkling, indra, karma, america chaves, moonstar, phyla vell, and tempo a push idk.

[@buffaloalice8413]

People are like, “why would you watch One Piece?” Well let me tell you, children, we are over 1000 chapters and episodes into this and Eichiro Oda absolutely REFUSES to pander to shipping. We are here for for it!

[@AnotherRandomUserName100]

I do ship some of the characters in One Piece, but yeah, the fact that canon has none of that is why I still enjoy it.

[@li-limandragon9287]

@@AnotherRandomUserName100The moment I find interesting to unpack is Pudding being jealous of Sanji and Nami in Whole Cake. Clearly whatever the Straw Hats have, it can inspire jealousy from someone from the outside, but it’s not something to be easily labeled either way.

[@chandlerburse]

@@buffaloalice8413 i am not committing my life to an anime

[@buffaloalice8413]

@@chandlerburse No one asked, and the only people who care are your parents and if you're lucky your high school guidance counselor.

[@jodi2847]

My favorite ship that drove fans insane is Hannibal Lecter and Clarice Starling. Fans of the book series, including Jodie Foster, were so deeply disturbed by the author himself making them a couple, that the ending for the 2001 Hannibal film had to be rewritten. And yet, somehow the shipping of Lecter and Will Graham is totally acceptable. WTF?

[@anonme_]

Thank you so much for pointing this out! I refuse to watch that stupid TV show specifically because of this odd couple. And no, not the cop and serial killer lover angle-the books can at least be read without seeing Hannibal and Clarice as a couple (I, most certainly, did not see them as a couple either in the book or the original movie. And I still can't recall the part where Hannibal and Clarice are depicted as a couple or hinted at having a romantic angle. I always thought Hannibal reaching out to Clarice in the end was an act of taunt, trying to fuck with her head or something, in some way that I am too stupid to understand). But the show openly makes Lecter and Graham a couple (or I think it hints at that?) and the fandom is so into shit that everybody involved in the fandom just gives me the creeps. And it's not just the fact that people find Lecter and Graham a good, ideal and/or acceptable couple-I have seen posts romanticising Lecter alone (no disrespect intended but I don't think the actor playing Lecter is particularly appealing to the eye. This makes me think that people who romanticise Lecter, do so for his personality. His personality being a serial killer??? Yeah, he is smart and whatnot but smart people in real and fictional worlds are more likely to be considered nerds and "friends" than romantic partners-the last part applies to the fictional characters more so than real people.] and that's just fucked up in the head. I will confess I have romanticised, even if briefly, people who are absolutely not good, all because they were good-looking people to me. But I would never put that shit out for the world to know, fawn over those people in public and get offended when somebody calls me what I am-crazy. And as a woman, I hate how much it is mostly teen girls and adult women who indulge in this sort of shit. So much for "healthy masculinity". Yeah, just because he is not a misogynistic, homophobic asshole, doesn't mean he is a good person, even less a good man or an ideal partner. Sorry for the rant but I honestly have never before come across a negative take on this particular "ship" and it makes me think things. Thank you for your public service in posting this take! PS: The show EVE has a similar couple and that's just another reason why I never checked it out. Fuck good characters and storylines if it comes at the cost of having to watch insufferable assholes be nice to their lovers while they take another human life without a hint of remorse.

[@denkerbosu3551]

@@anonme_ If it's the series I'm thinknig of, I personally found Lecter to be an attractive man (no homo tho) but what you're explaining is a simple phenomenon: "I can fix him" which leads to the "bad boy" mentality. but even worse when taken to the psycho killer. I'll remind you that Ted Bundy, a real fe serial killer, had fans taht wrote him love letters and sent them to prison. Hell, recently I remember reading about this one experiment where they made a profile on Tinder with a very attractive guy, but his profile was filled with the absolute worst a person could have, personality and past wise. I think him being an ex-con over PDF File was included. Needless to say, he got many many matches lol. It's just a thing that happens. Men actually go through something similar, the "I can fix her" (or worse, "she can fix me") where men like the idea of a girl "crazy about them" because it would be a guarantee of "love and loyalty" We men approach it from a different angle, but we still fall into the crazy/hot paradigm.

[@cynreiusacari3163]

I can’t recall what channel it was, but raging golden eagle or legal eagle went over a case with bad omega verse fanfiction. I would have loved to see the court try to keep a straight face during the explanation and reading 😂

[@gatortot6753]

@@anonme_ I believe you haven’t seen posts talking about the Hannibal graham thing being sick and creepy because you might be misinterpreting the ship as a whole. I’ve been out of it for about five years so it 100 percent could be like you say presently. However, when I was into it as a teenage girl nobody was claiming it was healthy or ideal or anything along those lines. It was well regarded as a messed up relationship, that’s the appeal. It’s a fantasy. A feminine (not just woman) power fantasy. It’s not meant to be brought into real life, and I personally don’t think they’re the best but I get why people like them. In a world where there are strong, powerful men who can really affect your life as a young girl, a story about a monster becoming obsessed with you (a real threat in a girls life) and you being able to emotionally control them to a point where their power is yours can be comforting. Will is kinda the stand in for the feminine power in a lot of fan fiction. Also, the plot point of them hating each other but being emotionally tied to each other. A lot of women can relate to that. Married horrible men, had children with them, have to live with that somehow. How to arrange those emotions in you somehow. That’s hard. You married and had children with a monster! What do you do? You’re tied forever emotionally through your child. I think that one gets over looked too. Lastly, the actor playing lector is very hot, like Alan Rickman type hot. Might not be your cup of tea, but he is really sexy. A lot of woman and men think so they’re not lying just cause you don’t. I don’t appreciate someone stating a feeling I have isn’t real and inferring what it actually must be for me. I understand finding it creepy and not liking it, but I promise a lot of the people you see enjoying it aren’t freaks who find it really romantic to be kidnapped and drugged and tortured and stabbed and all the other horrible stuff Hannibal does to Will on top of just being generally evil. I also understand not liking that the tv shows interpretation changes so much. Sorry for the essay but I think if a thing is made and enjoyed largely then something psychological/emotional is fueling that enjoyment.

[@natasha5553]

​@@anonme_ you don't know fun or exploring taboo ideas in fictional spheres everybody knows they're bad people but they're fictional

[@raccoonenjoyer01]

I don't hate Harlivy per se, but I hate the way DC handled it. So now that Poison Ivy is with a woman we should universally think of her as a good person, conveniently forgetting all the crimes she's committed? It doesn't sound right at all in my eyes, it's an extremely lazy way to write redemption. Not to mention Harley Quinn, she suffers all of this much more than Ivy. The thing that frustrates me the most is that I genuinely believe that as a couple they could have worked very well: seeing Harley become aware of Joker's abuse and have a trusted person to count on to overcome everything and learn to love again is a beautiful idea if done right, the problem is that they treat Harley and Poison Ivy's relationship as the culmination of their development without even having one to begin with. It feels nosense. Like, why the hell those two character should behave like this in the current state of their story? With all that we saw, they should be at least a little bit problematic or equally abusive as Harley and Joker, instead they try their hardest to paint them as a pair of redempt villains in an "open relatioship" (which doesn't make sense because Harley has well established trust issues and would never agree to something like that but ok) without even explaining or showing WHY they are like this. Is so weird.

[@bumbleguppy]

I just want to say: don't ever change JesterBell. I'm a 60 yr old man and I listen to your analysis and opinion and your insights and more often than not I feel like "If I could articulate how that movie made me feel, that would be it". Thanks for being my external brain :)

[@charlesharrison1907]

Seeing Tim Drake turned bi out of nowhere ruined the character for me. Especially when Megan Fritzmartin did the young justice dark crisis tie in with herself as Wondergirl doing a self meta book. Everyone rejected Tim being bi because she released a series and it didn’t sell.

[@samiamtheman7379]

As destroyed as Harley is, I agree the relationship is worse on Ivy because now she's attached to Harley's hip, despite being a character made decades before Harley.

[@CreativelyBankrupt-gc4dw]

Not to mention that every time ivy appears, it has to do something with Harley, she is no longer a criminal even though she is willing to kill innocents for plants and her entire character is unrecognizable. Ivy just can’t catch a break.

[@finalfantasyfan0128]

Kylo Ren x Rey: Creepy Hulk x Black Widow: Either they don’t know about the Hulk at all, or they choose to omit anything about the Hulk both as a character and regarding his powers. Rogue x Magneto: 🤮 Harley Quinn x Poison Ivy: Straight up lesbian porn. Batman x Barbra: 🤮 Rogue x Deadpool: Stupid I’ll let this quote speak for itself: “Those who cannot conceive Friendship as a substantive love but only as a disguise or elaboration of Eros betray the fact that they have never had a Friend. The rest of us know that though we can have erotic love and friendship for the same person yet in some ways nothing is less like a Friendship than a love-affair. Lovers are always talking to one another about their love; Friends hardly ever about their Friendship. Lovers are normally face to face, absorbed in each other; Friends, side by side, absorbed in some common interest. Above all, Eros (while it lasts) is necessarily between two only. But two, far from being the necessary number for Friendship, is not even the best. And the reason for this is important.” -C.S. Lewis

[@stiglapoint5672]

Rogue x Deadpool wasn’t even that serious. Hell I think it was funny af they had a small thing going on. Everything else tho is understandable

[@John93965]

The Black Widow/Hulk relationship deserved better.

[@achimdemus-holzhaeuser1233]

@@John93965 Especially it was Natasha/Bruce .. not their super counterparts. That is what made it work for me.

[@GM-yg9nq]

Don't forget Superman and Wonder Woman. Am I the only one who found that one unnecessary?

[@Ren-Strider]

C. S. Lewis always has the best quotes

[@EternityKingdomsHeadHoncho]

I will forever cackle at how bad the weird shipping in the Archie Sonic comics got. It got so bad that SEGA actually put a hard ban on ANY form of romantic relationship in the IDW comics just so they’d never have to deal with something as unhinged as “Sonic’s evil alternate universe doppleganger ruins his relationships with all the women in his life by having implied intercourse with them… including Amy, who is about 12” again.

[@snowbunnie1113]

Ken Penders got the whole comic universe shut down and retooled because he was such a weirdo.

[@CrustiiDustii]

I think the only relationship teased within IDW is between Tangle and Whisper

[@beauwalker9820]

I think the only one who was implied was Scourge X Bunnie, but according to writer Ian Flynn and Archie "nothing happened." After that incident in fairness, the Archie series kinda cooled down with the shipping a bit. Bunnie and Antoine got married, and Snivley had a thing for the Iron Queen, but at least most characters stopped randomly hooking up.

[@beauwalker9820]

​@@CrustiiDustii unpopular opinion, but I kinda prefer Tangle and Whisper as "just platonic friends." In comics it feels like it's overdone, and like you can't have 2 girls be "just friends" anymore.

[@raccoonenjoyer01]

I swear the only relationship in a Sonic comic that is not wild or weird as hell is Tangle x Whisper

[@Harleyxjokerforever]

I remember when the moment I called bull on Harley and Ivy relationship was when they introduced the Idea of them having a open one-sided relationship. Like Ivy just gonna be ok with Harley screwing whoever she wants? Sure. 😒 Now they in a poly relationship with Janet from HR? WHAT?! HARLEY HAS JEALOUSY ISSUES!!! she'd would flip her lid if Joker even showed any interest in a stuff animal but (the love of her life) Ivy can run off and come back with whole new girl? Come on!! And yes someone may say that Harley is more secure because Ivy treats her better (😑) but we're never shown them working on that.

[@ClassicHarleyQuinn]

I have a Batman complete history book that released for Batman's 75th anniversary. In it it says Ivy is a love interest of Batman and is only friends with Harley.

[@Harleyxjokerforever]

@@ClassicHarleyQuinnWe know this but DC has cave already to the Harlivy mob. 😕

[@notyouraverageharleyquinnstan]

💯

[@ClassicHarleyQuinn]

@@Harleyxjokerforever I know.

[@missmeme3946]

​@ClassicHarleyQuinn there is an old comic about batman lovers and one of the titles said: "Who batman will choose ? the comic came before pre crisis it has the first batwomen batgirl, when she was old, worked in the library before they made her young vicky vale catwomen poison ivy

[@colinpreston80]

Speaking of Marvel, I was very disappointed that Steve went back in time to have a relationship with Peggy. I've always thought he should have moved on.

[@SuperLumianaire]

Ehhh. To me, he finally got his happy ending and he proved Ultron wrong. He had a great life of peace the whole time, he stayed with Peggy.

[@colinpreston80]

@@SuperLumianaire I see your point, though not it’s not the ending I wanted. Then again, Evans no longer wanted to continue playing the character. So ending up with Peggy did solve that.

[@SuperLumianaire]

@@colinpreston80 did not think about that. Did not mean to be overly defensive if I was, he's my favorite character in Marvel. Hell, I know I've had what Ultron said to Cap said to me, that my wanting to always do the right thing met with cynical snide remarks and disgust of my morality.

[@colinpreston80]

@@SuperLumianaire You're good, and you did raise a good point that I didn't think of.

[@SuperLumianaire]

@@colinpreston80 thank you.

[@AlexanderMartinez-kd7cz]

don't play with shippers. don't talk with shippers. don't interact with shippers.

[@assssaaasasass]

Learned it after entering in a new freshly fandom, some ships became popular too fast, specially the gay ones, and if you shipped the characters with others that wasn't the "true pair" they would attack you and call you "homophobic" [even when you shipped said characters with others of the same sex].

[@DwarfDaddy]

Best advice

[@This-is-a-commentt]

Even Shippers follow these rules

[@foisopracurtir6389]

@@assssaaasasass Genshin?

[@samflood5631]

At least Tokyo Ghoul didn’t have Kaneki end up with Hide, which was what many shippers wanted. Kaneki and Touka have one of the better romances in this story.

[@TheShockVox]

Ivy and Harley worked better as friends/partners for me. I wasn’t against flirty undertones with them, but I didn’t trust anyone to do it in a way that wouldn’t change them in a way that hurts what I enjoyed about both of them OR makes them less fun to read and watch. And it happened. Them together means they can’t be what makes them engaging. It’s a similar reason why certain hero pairings don’t work. Spider-Man can’t date Captain Marvel because 1….i don’t like Carol much anymore. BUT mainly 2, it would change too many things about their respective books to be a real lasting change. The same applies for Ivy and Harl. But also unrelated, Harley has just been ruined for nearly more than a decade now anyway.

[@altalia07]

Yeahh

[@laraendlight9887]

Honestly, I often joked about Harley and Ivy when they would team up in the cartoons and older comics, but the more their ships gets written now, the more I see such a terrible writing and a complete annihilation of the characters. I'm NOT saying characters can't change, but I'd like to see the change, I'd like to see when Ivy got from: "Humans must die! All of them!" to: "This one I just tolerated once is my partner now", I'd like to see the writing focusing more on the characters work on themselves and on making up for the villains they've been in the stories where they're supposed to be the good guys, more of this, yet the more I roam the DC zone, the more it looks like they're being written as a: "People like them, make them good with everyone instantly acting like they were always perfect angels and make them the perfect cuddly couple and stop". It's not even impossible, I've seen many fanfiction writers treat the characters (not only as a couple, I mean as the characters themselves alone, or as friends, other dynamics) perfectly and actually put more effort into it than many episodes of the new serie did, one should only accept that to build a good relationship that works and doesn't look forced as fuck, you need to take time and work on the characters first, but their own development is basically reduced to what's convenient or to nothing.

[@christiannoriega428]

What bothers me even more is that they completely forgot about Bruce's love interest from the Hulk solo movie. She added another interesting conflict to the Hulk, but now she just disappears even though they clearly still deeply cared for each other. Maybe they were trying to just forget about that movie, but I think they botched that excuse when they brought back Abomination.

[@CharlesH-t9r]

Liv Tyler is back but for some reason Mark Ruffalo isn't involved in Captain America Brave New World despite the socalled Red Hulk plot , Bruce was a huge part of

[@marcusrimson6330]

Betty just disappearing pisses me off, it's like she doesn't exist anymore, hell she's not even acknowledged in the MCU

[@Rebelheart1985]

I would’ve preferred Natasha with Clint or Bucky honestly. Bucky more since Clint has a wife and children in the MCU.

[@John93965]

@@christiannoriega428 Natasha is a good love interest for Bruce and Betty’s so old news.

[@DanCoder-h2u]

It’s because more of our writers are focused on their own interests rather then what actually fits the character

[@nobleconsejera5278]

18:35 I saw it coming since The Force Awakens. The thing is, it got ruined since the moment they made him kill Han Solo… How would have Rey been supposed to end up liking him if the same day they meet he kills Han (his own father) in front of her? That was painful to watch

[@CharlesH-t9r]

Its always funny when the same media that marketed 50 shades of grey, Team Jacob Team Edward ships Bella, and Reylo Will then complain about "Kids and teenagers have toxic mindsets towards dating" Like how do they just do shit like this and act like they're a moral authority on relationships???

[@meth_raccoon]

The relationship makes no sense in an almost inhuman way. Who simps for a stranger who tortured them and executed his own parent in front of them? The crazy thing is that Kylo doesn't even pretend to have good motives or be nice to Rey in anyway. And wasn't her whole thing that she was waiting for her parents to come back, only for it to turn out they died? Shouldn't she _especially_ be disgusted and horrified to see someone killing their father after he reached out to them and invited them to return home with him? This story was so wack lmao

[@CharlesH-t9r]

As a diehard Stephen King novel fan Even he himself said he fully understood why studios completely took out the "Losers pact" part Only sick fucks like Jeremy Scott from CinemaSins wanted to see that put in the film Same dude who was creeping on teenage Haliee Stanfield, Millie Bobby Brown, Emma Watson and Lindsey Lohan

[@henrygambles3652]

Jeremy Scott is gross! Addmittedly I used to crush on Hailee Steinfeld but I was younger(I’m 23 right now and she’s 27 now) and yeah I don’t know what Stephen King was thinking when he devised that scene!

[@Uneclipsed]

@@henrygambles3652he was on coke the entire time he was writing that novel.

[@crushinganimek9470]

What happened in the "Loser's Pact" scene? I never read the book.

[@richborn6700]

​​@@crushinganimek9470All the losers take turns losing their virginity with the female loser because she thought it would help their bonds as a group. But it goes into rather graphic detail about the sizes and skills of they boys in what amounts to a bunch of 7th graders gang banging a girl in a sewer before battling a cosmic space creature from another dimension who assumes the form of a clown. *Cocaine is a HELL OF A DRUG*

[@Uneclipsed]

@@crushinganimek9470 an inappropriate group interaction involving all the children as a metaphor for entering adulthood. 💀

[@diamondinmyeye6160]

The best relationships come from characters who see something in the other that they personally lack. It facilitates growth for both when they can help themselves through it together. Having a similar outlook/trauma is a recipe for toxic codependency.

[@codymartin9218]

This is actually why I like Natasha and Bruce together. If they had botherd to do anything with the caricatures

[@l.tc.5032]

Im fine with fanfiction, go wild! But I draw the line when it becomes canon. I remember Korrasami, it was so out of left field and forced. I just don't get it I probably never will.

[@MagillanicaLouM]

Yeah having Asami get with the chick that ACTIVELY tried stealing her boyfriend and starting the annoying love triangle bullshit was definitely not a stroke of writing genius lol

[@ClassicHarleyQuinn]

I'd say Harlivy is patient zero as it was made canon in 2011 during New 52/Rebirth. It's the one I can't stand the most and Batman/Batgirl. "BuT tHeY sHaReD a RoOm WiTh OnE bEd" *Shows a very clearly run down room with the very bare minimum amount of furniture clearly showing they doing what they can to survive* Venom 3 trailer looks decent, Alien: Romulus trailer drops tomorrow. Also got new music from *EMINƎM* which is clearly a Slim Shady track and I think his new album will be as well. Hopefully a Venom 3 track on his new album.

[@ClassicHarleyQuinn]

@@Harls1992 it's where the downfall began.

[@Terminalsanity]

I've gotten so much blow back for not really liking Harley x Ivy and I all ever said it it kind of ruined the big sister little sister dynamic they used to have which is exactly how they were written and now neither character even resemble themselves because Ivy is no longer defined by her need for control which is what corrupted her eco advocacy but is now defined by her relationship with Harley and is basically just a prop her even more than Harley was a prop for Joker and Harley's character begins and end with LOL aren't I wacky and sexy?

[@kayokango]

I'm willing to bet that around 95% of the people who ship Harley and Ivy have no actual knowledge of either of their character histories. Their only sources of information are current day product and sh^tty youtube comic book media channels who spout lying revisionist history bullsh^t.

[@altalia07]

😞

[@li-limandragon9287]

@Terminalsanity My only problem with it is that it reduces Ivy who’s a had much longer history than Harley into just her green girlfriend. It’s not the relationship itself, it’s just another case of Harley getting to dominate.

[@TheSeptacle]

Remember when friendship was a thing? I miss that

[@beccaknight5763]

Yes! Omg! But now, everyone must be attracted to each other and friendships are just a step before people hook up….. so sad.

[@nakitaknight957]

Obviously a FAILED attempt to recapture Beauty and The Beast, that was Joss Whedon’s unoriginal vision & the answer as to y

[@CharlesH-t9r]

The Betty Ross and Bruce Banner/Hulk dynamic was already a good beauty and the beast allegory The MCU for some reason won't go back to that dynamic that was built up in The Incredible Hulk

[@amyflowers2435]

Chakotay and Seven of Nine. It wasn't even a bad relationship because it wasn't a relationship. It was a WTF, out-of-nowhere choice that never made any sense and made a lot of people angry.

[@kinglewis6553]

Yeah, i know throughout the series they made the jokev that Harry always fell for the wrong girl but him and Seven would have made way more sense. At least on that point they had put in work on the two of them getting closer.

[@AColonDashSix]

Yeah, I always thought that he had better chemistry with Janeway, not that it would have worked but the romantic _tension_ does work ... same way there's a little tension with 7 and the Dr.

[@gloomxroses]

the Loki series on Disney+ could also be a good example. i still don’t understand why they had to put Loki in a relationship in the first place. Not once have i thought that he would be the romantic type before the show, but apparently he is because….why not??😭 I haven’t seen anything beyond season 1 because the whole romance ruined it for me💀

[@DarklightNamari]

I did think the Loki/Sylvie ship was wierd, but I also got this vibe at teh end of season one that she probably wasn't capable of being in a relationship due to her experiences and the fact that she clearly values her freedom so much. If they were goin for that Adam/Eve angle then Sylvie basically became Lilith instead. So I don't think the ship was ever going to go anywhere from the get-go because of what she valued. Honestly I loved that show to death and was probably the best show in the MCU (imo) and tho I did think the ship was initially wierd, I have a feeling it was planned to sink from the start. So I feel it was not as strange, but I get where you're coming from.

[@anonme_]

​@@Thed538dhsk What version of Loki Season 2 were you watching? Sylvie (or other characters) never "said" or implied that the ship itself is sick. She is basically shown as too selfish to get into a relationship (or have anything to do that comes close to taking responsibility for starting the clusterfuck of chaos that is going to wipe out the universe and time) because she wants to live that McDonald's cashier life, which I really liked. After all, she is an alternate version of Loki (or the other way around, if saying a woman is a man's alternate version hurts anybody's sensibilities lmao). Loki is vapid, selfish, cruel, insecure and definitely not a romantic person. It's not to say that he can't be romantic (I suppose "ace" is the term for the sensible folks); he just really doesn't care about anyone enough to have romantic feelings for them. And yet, in S2, just so that he wouldn't have to kill Sylvie, he chooses to let time get fucked. He literally says as much to the Dude who sat at the end of time (that irrelevant character whom Sylvie had chased all throughout S1). We are watching two different versions of the same show and you appear to be making assumptions to justify your opinions. Please consider adding the episode number and probably a time stamp where Sylvie (or other characters, don't know which ones you are pointing at) says or at least implies the realisation of how fucked up it is that a person fell in love with their own self. Also, where is it mentioned that S1's ending is inspired by Adam/Eve's story?? How does that ending even mirrors Adam/Eve's story, who were the first human beings and Eve fucks up? Where are you getting these theories from? Add your source, please.

[@denkerbosu3551]

He is because they had to make him a bottom in all ways they could think of (randomly brought up his sexuality, AND made him simp for blondie)

[@denkerbosu3551]

@@Thed538dhsk Season 1 bro gave up keeping Kahn alive because he couldn't kill Silvie, S2 sucked just as much.

[@denkerbosu3551]

@@anonme_ I don't like Silvie being a selfish ahhole simply because nobody holds her accountable for that. Trash character, writing and overall story.

[@maximusprime3459]

Thank you for this. I thought I was the only one who thought this about some of these couplings. I largely now steer clear of anything that involves Harley and Ivy.

[@MagillanicaLouM]

Same, automatic "turn away" sign (and most things pushing Harley as the main focus in general really). It feels like they just use Ivy as "the chick Harley starts fucking after joker" rather than her own character, in part due to the weird larger pop culture push for Harley in general.

[@altalia07]

@@MagillanicaLouMyea..

[@verstamech]

Tbh, one big example of a ship destroying characters and stories for me was in Star vs. the Forces of Evil. Not only was the show's quality overall really going downhill after Season 2, but the show became increasingly more and more focused on shipping fulfillment. This resulted in some of the most hilariously awful moments in the show, with characters doing a complete 180 and breaking up with each other just so the main two protagonists could get together by the end. It wouldn't have really been a problem if this had happened in, say, early Season 2 or 3 or something when the characters weren't already in established relationships. However, when this happened, it was at the tail end of Season 4, the show's final season, where the two protags were already with other people. It felt like, after Season 2, the writers each had their own favorite ship they wanted to push and resulted in a tug-of-war between who the characters should end up with by the end rather than focusing on the actual story and writing. The show itself wasn't even that good by Season 4, but the forced relationship drama really felt like the extra cherry on the cake

[@meth_raccoon]

That show's final season was a mess. They really built up Marco and Kelly, only for the characters to just casually mention that they broke up off-screen a few episodes later so they could fast track Starco. Tom actually developed beyond just being the crazy ex and became the most likable character, only for Star to cheat on him and then get mad when he (calmly) confronted her about her cheating. That just made her look so awful and had me hating her, even before the magical mass murder thing. It was also a crazy terrible choice to have an episode pointing out that Star/Tom was technically an interracial monster and mewman relationship, hold it up as proof that the 2 races can work together, then have that relationship implode in the worst way possible. The writers didn't need to do that, but they did it anyways 💀💀💀

[@marcusrimson6330]

I swear it's like DC is just sweeping all the horrible shit Harley did under the rug just so they can force this ship to happen, she literally murdered innocent children

[@BlueDaisy33]

Injustice spoiler loved that one comic issue where Jon calls her out for her role in what had happened

[@valentecarrillo4259]

It was really mess up for the comic books writers and x-men 97 writers to make Magneto and Rouge being former lovers. In the 90's animated series Magneto and Rouge had no interest of each other. And I'm also pretty sure that Rouge and Gambit were already a couple on the show. But the writers of X-men 97 retcon it having us think it never happen. Just because it happen in the comics which they clearly got that idea from. Doesn't mean that they should have put it on the show. It should have never happen in the comics books anyway people hated that what were the comic book writers thinking back then? If x-men evolution come back they better not do the same thing on that show including the mcu.

[@flowerbloom5782]

Yes, it’s pissed me off. Especially how gambit and rogue developed to trust each other. Nope throw out that way.

[@li-limandragon9287]

@rickmel09It sucks but yes they briefly had a thing in Savage Land, Rogue had a thing for his younger self/clone and slept together in Schism. Plus they’re together in Age of Apocalypse. It definitely didn’t need to happen in the first place and was ultimately just Chris Claremont being horny.

[@samflood5631]

@@valentecarrillo4259 I just hope that the new show runner will bring Gambit and Rogue back together.

[@therotryzit]

I feel like Black Widow's character really suffered from the fact that important parts of her history with other characters was glossed over or relegated to the magical land of offsreenia. She was never really allowed to be the main driver of her own narrative always relegated to a supportive role. (We know the behind the scenes reasons why) But even after they got to sort that problem out they never really bothered to rectrify that at all before deciding to kill her off in a very unsatisfactory way.

[@PrincessLockette]

The characters Yang Xiao Long and Blake Belladonna were totally ruined in the show rwby when they were forced to become a couple.

[@oscarborjajr1176]

Oh 100 percent agree. I hate bumblebee/wasps ship so much. that ship had a huge hand in help ruining the characters, making them unlikable and had a hand destroying the show and the fandom. Yang was my favorite character and what they done to her and reduced her to being a forced butch lesbian to pander to people who don't care about rwby or the characters. They ruined adam character and his storyline, they ruined blake, they ruined sun, they destroyed yang and most important her relationship with ruby. Also it makes no sense at all for why yang would ever like blake or develope feelings for since ahe should do the opposite and instead dispise and not forgive her for abandoning them and be a coward. They were literally forced at gun point and was manipulated into being something there not which is beyond disgusting and disturbing and insulting to the characters. It also gets worst when yang sister ruby was clearly depressed and was having a mental breakdown and she stood by blake side and look angry at her and didn't care about helping her in volume 9 or the previous volumes heck in she would more worried about what blake think of her than ruby safety and well being back at 8 which characters assignations. They even add and push more stupid bumblebee/wasps ships when ruby died and she all smile and hugging blake because apparently acording to the writers blake is more important than ruby which is beyond disgusting. It also doesn't help they shove in the terrible justice league rwby movies as well and try to make yang care when it was extremely to late and also insulting heck ruby should be pissed at them and not forgive then and not accept it. Also let not forget this "relationship" is beyond toxic and abusive, you have yang having abandonment issues and anger issues and blake is a coward tha runs away when things get tuff and play the victim and blame others and shown to violent. Also there blake compare adam to yang which doesn't help and shows how blake is a not a good friend. Also blake is basically another version or raven yang mom who abandoned her and is horrible so it doesn't makes any sense why would yang ever want be with someone like Blake. Yamg ahould be angry at her and not deal with her and should spend time with ruby because that her sister and she supposed to love her more than anyone. God I can't stand this ship or any for or version of it, they made this ship cannon for people who don't care about rwby, or the characters or the story and instead care more about "representation and diversity" and woke crap. Also if yoy take blake out in those forced shipping scenes with yang and replace her qith ruby and adjust it abit it actually makes more sense because yang and ruby are supposed to be extremely closed to one another and care about one another. Heck the bridged scenes should be about ruby and yang and them as sisters and how much they care about one another and vow to not leave one another and help each other out because they do care love each other. I hope to god they don't continue rwby and I believe they will not ans I hope for two outcomes one it gwt lock in the vault or they reboot it and don't make this ship cannon and instead make it about a sisterhood like the creator wanted.

[@PrincessLockette]

@@oscarborjajr1176 problem is who would reboot it, crunchyroll? Funimation? Netflix? I dont trust any of those companies anymore.

[@theflyinghandofloob2062]

They picked the two worst characters out of team RWBY to ship too. Blake already had a love interest (Sun). I’ve always thought Yang was a weird choice because her character seems like she would work better on the sidelines of a romantic drama. Either as a wingman or some sort of comedic relief. She always struck me as the older sister to the group, not just Ruby, lightening tensions and cracking jokes.

[@jessnalulila5552]

Honestly there's nothing else the writers know what to do with Blake other than her being Yang's girlfriend

[@PrincessLockette]

@@jessnalulila5552 I'm half convinced that's why they killed off Adam. They killed him off because they didn't know what to do with his character anymore and also because they were trying to find a way to force Blake and Yang to be a couple. So killing him off was the best way to make that happen, in their minds.

[@LouiseXSparrow]

Completely with you on the Rogue/Magneto thing, it's the reason I won't watch '97, I loved the 90's cartoon and as far as I'm concerned it ended back then.

[@Fenris30]

Wplverine and Jean was also a.forced thing cause it was a Retcon inserted by Claremont after Jean was brought back in X-Factor.

[@flayjunior18]

Well, you're right. But Jean x Scott aren't better.

[@richborn6700]

@@flayjunior18 Jean x Death is the best relationship. Every tine she's around its a. bad love triangle b. phoenix force shenanigans c. self sacrifice due to b. and everyone martyring her and talking her up for literal years while teasing returns

[@li-limandragon9287]

@Fenris30 People only gravitate towards LoganXJean because Scott (with a few exceptions) is a vacuum of charisma.

[@Fenris30]

@@li-limandragon9287 And yet Jean loves him. Makes you think she knows something you don't. Scott's a great character when written well, problem is Logan tends to suck up all the oxygen in the room. Look at how Scott was able to shine once Logan got the Scott treatment of being pushed into the background on X-Men 97.

[@samflood5631]

@@flayjunior18 why’s that?

[@psychodrummer1567]

39:15 it reminds me of an old Internet saying: "love is like a fart - if you have to force it, it's probably sh*t"

[@sirjimothythe1st]

I remember when I saw a reddit post about how Batgirl apparently had a crush on Killer Moth at some point.

[@antwonsmith8931]

Magneto and Rogue are a prime example. I always shipped her with Gambit. Not Magneto! 😖

[@oliveragag8576]

The dude has several children around her age.

[@CharlesH-t9r]

​​@@oliveragag8576 Aaron Taylor Johnson who played Quicksilver was groomed by a 40 year old woman when he was 16 then "married him" at age 21 The cowriter of X-Men defended Aaron being groomed I assume this is way of "getting" back at people calling him out for it

[@henrygambles3652]

⁠​⁠@@thehacker4012He wasn’t 18 when they met, he was actually 13 if not younger, he definitely wasn’t an adult when he met her so yeah it’s grooming!

[@henrygambles3652]

@@CharlesH-t9ractually he was 13 if not younger!

[@CharlesH-t9r]

@@henrygambles3652 you're right he was 13 , how she's not in prison is beyond me

[@Avarn388]

I will post to comment on the video specifically, but for me what hurts about seeing bad romances is when they don’t make logical sense. What I mean is that why on earth would two characters fall for each other? Let’s assume they are even well written characters, the why and the hows of their relationship matter a lot. For example if you have a loner who is a good person and helps out but doesn’t like interacting with people maybe he or she can have a romance with someone who is more outgoing. Someone who will bring this person out of their shell and start connecting back with others. Whereas the outgoing person can appreciate the moral character of the loner and how they always support them and know when to ground them. I know I’m speaking in vague terms but please for heavens sake, when you introduce a romance it has to be more than lovely dovey stuff. Especially for a story where romance is the focal point.

[@andrewcook4873]

My take on Black Widow and Bruce Banner was that she was straight up just manipulating him in order to control The Hulk, given their lack of chemistry that was the only thing that made sense to me. The she straight up betrayed Banner to bring out the Hulk so that was confirmation for me. That take makes sense to me but does kind of ruin the character of Black Widow who was supposed to be trying to be good but then goes into manipulating Banner which is not ok by normal standards.

[@missmeme3946]

there is a comic from dc that came in 2012 have ivy where she made fun of Wonder Woman because she is on an island full of women only heraly was like: ewww !! and now Ivy and heraly become gay couple

[@qwert4407]

Are you sure that's a real comic, because I did a search online and couldn't find anything like that pre - or post new 52.

[@missmeme3946]

@qwert4407 The comic called AME-COMI: BATGIRL Is it elsewhere comic

[@oldman5247]

Another example of bad fan-fiction like romance from author self insert writing. Was how they treated April O’Neal and Donatello in the 2012 TMNT Nikoledeon cartoon. That “relationship” started out bad. Then ended in a pathetic whimper.

[@jadbayram496]

Wait what? I always thought the ship was April and casey. This is gross and further proves why self-insertion isn't always a good thing

[@oldman5247]

@@thehacker4012 I didn’t hate the fact that they didn’t get together. I hated how one sided the relationship was. They kept dragging it on with no real end in sight. Then the writers decided to drop it unceremoniously. With them just accepting that it wasn’t “working” for them. So if I actually cared about them getting together. The ending would be a big waste of time. I prefer it when the Turtles are paired with other mutants or non humans. Like Raph and Mona.

[@oldman5247]

@@thehacker4012 Even if that is literally the case. I’m left with a romance that one sided, and deliberately set up to fail. To point out how obviously bad a one sided crush is. Wouldn’t you want to see a romance where both sides of the relationship. Care about each other.

[@oldman5247]

@@thehacker4012 Okay I’m obviously getting no where here. Yes obviously unrequited love does happen. But they dragged it out far longer than they needed to. I just don’t like the “romance” between Donatello and April. I prefer Raph and Mona. Plus I always saw April as more of a big sis to the turtles. Than a potential love interest. Plus April O’Neil is usually older than the turtles.

[@richborn6700]

​​@@thehacker4012this is a real problem too. April O'Niel went from a woman with a career and college education, to a college student, to a highschooler. And while they are Teenagers, that's never been the main driving force behind their personalities. Yet much like Spider-Man, they think the younger and more juvenile they make the characters the more relatable they'll be to this new generation

[@shawnwykoff8744]

You think Kevin Feige care about the movies, how cute.

[@josephroszell]

I'm still shocked that they tried hulk and black widow like bruce where's betty?

[@drecolizo1]

I was genuinely disgusted by the Rogue/Magneto relationship. And Ivy/Harley was and is terrible. That show objectively sucks.

[@archersterling6726]

I watched the season last week and man, all these ships were SUCH a waste of screentime

[@GM-yg9nq]

Yeah I'm not a fan of the Harley show either. It's pretty much every other adult animated comedy I've seen. It ain't anything special.

[@CharlesH-t9r]

Someone said "Well they paid off Rogue's hero's journey arc" They did that in the OG cartoon and comics once she became a an X-Men and realized she was used by Mystique and Magneto

[@tabithanel1975]

@@GM-yg9nq Could I recommend some good (IMO) ones to you? It's never nice to only see the shit part of a genre❤

[@GM-yg9nq]

@@tabithanel1975 Be my guest

[@Katetanic]

I will always hate Harley Quinn and Poison Ivy as a romance couple.

[@harleybtasfan90s]

Hate all the ships in the thumbnail, and you throughly explained the reasons why👏one of the many reasons I adore your channel. And you!

[@AndreNitroX]

You are so right, sometimes bade relationships in shows or movies can actual ruin likeable characters but only because they have to change the character to make it work.

[@GiuseppeMario-d8y]

Harley and Ivy is fun, when done well. But 'Reylo' (and Rise for that matter) is why you should never listen to the Internet. Came right the hell out of nowhere and did nothing for either character. Bruce and Natasha was a byproduct of the Hulk's murky copyright situation at the time _and_ the studio boss at the time, Ike Perlmutter(massive a-hole) believed the only story worth telling about women was "Who is she boinking" and "Would she be a good mommy?" The less said about New 52 (all of it) the better, but what the f*ck were they smoking when they thought how they introduced Starfire was a good idea? "Hey, you know this character who's had a boom in popularity because that family-friendly, anime-lite cartoon where she's happy, bubbly, and always wants to help? Introduce her on a boob joke and pair her up with two of the biggest _losers_ in comic book history, the people will be nothing but delighted!" Spoilers, _the people were not._

[@keona5560]

I'm an anime fan. I have too many to count especially when it comes to shonen. Aside from targetted examples they fumble so often I'm SURPRISED when they don't😭

[@PrincessLockette]

Cough Naruto cough

[@keona5560]

@@PrincessLockette the poster child for this😭

[@user-Olive]

Oh god, it's horrible. Especially Naruto. Plus shonen often have a misogyny.😢

[@DrLipkin]

The one that guts me is Tim Drake. Over his 30 year existence as a character, he was extremely asexual coded. He had a long standing love interest in Spoiler, but they never consummated, and he was explicitly stated to be a virgin. When I was reading comics (My first comic was Countdown to Infinite Crisis, I stopped at the Nu52), Tim was my favorite character. I wouldn't realize until many years later that it was because I was heteroromantic asexual, and I saw myself in Tim. Cut to the 2020s, and suddenly Tim realizes that he is bisexual, breaks up with Cassie off panel, and starts a relationship with a random former schoolmate. Excuse me, what? First of all, talk about disrespectful to his relationship with Cassie. Second of all, Tim spends most of his time around the fittest men on the planet, who are wearing skintight outfits. Including Nightwing, who canonically has the best ass in comics. Tim is supposed to be one of the best detectives in the DC universe, rivaling even Batman. You're telling me he never noticed he was attracted to men before some pencil necked dweeb confessed that he had a crush on him? I'm not upset about a character coming out as bi. Jonathan Kent being bi is great. Clark is meant to be a role model, so there's no better character to model how to be the parent of a queer kid. My problem is that asexual characters in romantic relationships have almost zero representation in media. And that often people interpret a character not being interested in the opposite sex as proof that they are interested in the same sex. Outing Tim in such a lazy way threw away the opportunity to have an actual nuanced and logical character arc.

[@tomboyraider1015]

Thank god I'm not the only one who feels this way. Some of these ships are just so unsuitable. You can already tell. Gosh some of them are just so cringe.

[@VentWilsn]

All these forced relationships And Pete STILL cant get with MJ

[@richborn6700]

Because Peter x Eternal Misery is the only ship all the Marvel Bullpen can agree on sadly

[@brainiacat2011]

They even changed Ivy's powers during this shift of Harley's friend to lover, from poisonous kiss & spores that control you, to mind control kiss & poisonous spores.

[@robbie_azure]

the Olicity thing damn near killed my love for Arrow and anything CW related, and the Hulk and Widow thing really does feel like a self insert, hell even the Olicity thing can feel that way sometimes even though its not

[@lordtrigon1733]

I remember at the time it happened, Felicity was very popular, and Laurel was very unpopular. Then that switched which, to me, confirms they were just really bad at writing a love interest.

[@robbie_azure]

@@lordtrigon1733 the fact that the show was trying to make Laurel problematic but felicity as perfect was such a weird choice...and the suffering of the Lance family in terms of writing needs to be studied cuz wtf

[@achimdemus-holzhaeuser1233]

Yeah, the whole shipping thing made the series cringe for me ..

[@CharlesH-t9r]

The Clark and Lana relationship in Smallville was bad too but at least they kinda handled it the right way

[@TypicalCynic_]

I’m also annoyed by the Harley and Ivy ship. I miss when villains were actually, y’know, VILLAINS. A character can become popular and exist outside of their role as a villain for a hero, but at the core of their identity they should still be a villain for the most part. All these writers are trying way too hard to make Harley an anti hero, or just straight up a hero, and Poison Ivy hasn’t been a meaningful Batman villain since, I don’t even know. The Arkham games??? Like you can’t make this shit up. It’s like if Scarecrow suddenly became gay for Clayface and they both decided to become anti heroes in EVERY SINGLE POSSIBLE MEDIA, never being portrayed as villains ever again like they’re supposed to be.

[@smartalec2001]

My headcanon was always that Natasha was trying to seduce Bruce because either she was afraid of him and felt a need to neutralise the danger he posed, or - even darker - Fury told her to do it. She knew she couldn't kill him if she needed to, so she had to fall back on the seduction part of her KGB spy skillset. In the Age of Ultron movie, though, yeah, Bruce was effectively Joss Whedon's self-insert.

[@CharlesH-t9r]

That's actually a good theory

[@anonme_]

I always thought Nat had hots for Bruce before she even knew he was Hulk. Like, when they first met in Avengers, probably she knew something was wrong with him but instead of going her way (she always hints how she needs to clean the red in her ledger), he learnt to control his monsters and basically became a saint (he was working as doctor in India in Avengers). I considered her feelings for him valid because probably she saw him as a better version of herself (though I cannot exactly explain how they are similar kind of people to begin with, apart from the fact that they both could have used their "powers" to wreck absolute havoc, to exact some sort of revenge and they didn't; not until the Black Widow movie but I didn't know this part of her story when Age of Ultron came out). I liked that ship when I saw them as two people trying to heal each other and detach from the "avengers" tag, where they have to become versions of themselves that they aren't necessarily fond of, even if it's for some greater good. I genuinely thought Age of Ultron would see both of them stepping away from the Avengers and going their own way to live in the woods or something like Hawkeye had been. Wishing thinking, I guess.

[@denkerbosu3551]

@@anonme_ An interesting take.

[@denkerbosu3551]

It's funny you mention Whedon's "self-insert" it reminds me of the actor for Black Falcon pitching a romance beween his character and Black Widow.

[@flayjunior18]

@@anonme_ lame...

[@rebelgames623]

It’s truly awful what’s happened to comic books What was once a fun experience to sit down and read a fantasy story about superhero’s saving the day or solving mysteries and problems Has now degraded into a cesspool of fetishized garbage that only exists for a small group of weirdos

[@Butterfly-ql4pg]

Your anecdote with Jabba and Leia reminded me of a personal experience where bad ships actually got in the way of a ship I wanted to be canon. A few years ago, I got reallly into a post-apocalyptic show on the CW called The 100 and seriously shipped the two main characters, Bellamy and Clarke, primarily because of how much chemistry they had. (In fact, the actors even got together in real life and are now married with a kid.) But the writers seemed really allergic to the idea of them ending up together because they wanted to be "edgy" and "different" and not have their male and female leads end up together romantically, so it felt like they were whipping out every excuse they could think of to keep them from ending up together. On one hand, a brief relationship Clarke had in the early seasons with a love interest who was ultimately killed off ended up developing an extremely rabid fanbase, and the writers would frequently weaponize it and play off their hype, to the point that they were painting this ship to be more important to Clarke's storyline than it actually was and having her grieve this love interest to an unhealthy degree. And then in the later seasons, they randomly forced Bellamy into a relationship with a side character he had absolutely no chemistry with. The fact that she indirectly killed one of his previous love interests and nearly killed his sister at one point made them getting together make even less sense. Thankfully, I was able to help myself feel better by writing a fanfiction where Bellamy and Clarke do end up together, but needless to say it's still one of the most frustrating viewing experiences I've ever had 😂

[@user-Olive]

Yes, i never understood than type of thing. Why some writers so afraid/hate fans, or ,other extreme, think they should please every desire of fans. Just write a good story and sometimes listen your fanbase. Fans not your enemies or gods. I understand that producers censor a lot of queer content, and maybe writers had a lot of cool plans for queer couple. But (in the in 100 case) now it all looks as homophobic and as bad writing. They could do something interesting with Bellark, but decided no to. In the end, i think it was a combination of censorship from SW and inability of writers to work around it, or even just go with something that already work.

[@doro626]

Can we talk about the sexual tension between Magneto and Xavier in that mind scape scene? 😁😀

[@samflood5631]

Was that sexual tension when Erik and Charles are in that bar?

[@doro626]

@@samflood5631 Yeah. The rough waves outside and yacht bobbing up and down.

[@samflood5631]

@@doro626 I wonder if the new show runner will make Magneto x Professor X canon.

[@tonygriego6382]

Superman and Wonder Woman. Horrible ship.

[@flayjunior18]

Nah. You are the horrible person.

[@richborn6700]

This always feels like it stems from someone writing and thinking, "can Superman have sex with regular women and not kill them?"

[@CharlesH-t9r]

​​@@richborn6700 especially when it's established Superman holds back and is extremely careful when dealing with humans even villains

[@Rebelheart1985]

I don’t hate it. I just massively prefer Superman with Lois Lane and found it a bit too obvious.

[@JRexRegis]

Yeah A major part of Superman's character is that he has two things to ground himself - his normal human girlfriend Lois, who can pull him down when he loses sight of the human perspective, and his job as a journalist, which is not something his powers will allow him to "cheat" at. Pretty much every "evil superman" type story asks "what if one or both of those anchors did not exist?" and they're all incredibly good because they reinforce *why* Lois and the bugle job are so pivotal to the character.

[@lordsinister707]

At this stage in the game, I honestly just think shipping characters is a sign that the writer didn't know how to develop their relationship. Everybody has to be dating for there to be any type of a deeper connection and that to me is just a sign of lazy writing and lack of creativity

[@jonnjones8263]

Steve Trevor & Wonder Woman is also something that doesn't need to be a thing. DC trying to make Steve relevant always results in undermining Diana.

[@sereksusvictar7888]

Yeah, they had to make Diana a grapist in order to force that relationship in the last movie.

[@thatonkgau5221]

They should've let Steve Trevor remain dead he served his purpose they should just replace him with someone else.

[@kayokango]

To be fair, Steve was always meant to be sort of Wonder Woman's equivalent to Superman's Lois Lane or Spiderman's MJ. It's just that Steve has often been the victim of really bad writing over the years. Sometimes he's done justice, but sadly not nearly often enough.

[@Rebelheart1985]

Naw that’s just bad writing. They were alright in Wonder Woman: Bloodlines, kinda Wonder Woman (2009), and the DCAU.

[@dafnev3643]

I may get hate for this but i dislike what they did to Mistique and her wedding with Destiny, is not that i dont like the couple but as same as IvyxHarley, they seem to forget that Mistique have made a lot of abuse to her children, specially nightcrawler, they are not good persons but they tried to make them as white doves

[@spinningtornado4543]

The retcon done onto Nightcrawler made matters worse for all the characters and turned the ship so toxic, a wedding/renewal of vows should be the last thing Mystique will want to do with Destiny.

[@samflood5631]

@@dafnev3643 How was Destiny not a good person?

[@budgiecat9039]

Right off the bat these come to mind: Magneto and Rogue in X-Men 97 Korra and Asami in Legend of Korra Future Trunks and Mai in DB Super Batgirl and Batman in that one OVA Harley and Poison Ivy Bruce and Natasha Wolverine and Cyclops? Kylo and Rey of course Whatever the hell they were doing to Peter Parker in the recent comics having him being cucked by MJ

[@robchuk4136]

Korra and Asami was the first time I experienced an online ship get canonized in the actual show. Remember, Legend of Korra was only supposed to be one season, so that was never the plan from the start. In the end, I don't think it hurt the characters, but for such a celebrated thing, it's overrated, because nothing was developed between them. The creators can blame Nickelodeon all they want, but they made the last season knowing what the final shot of the series will be. Yet even in the climax of the show, and everything is life and death, these characters barely say two words to each other. That's not censorship. That's just bad development.

[@aryoph9224]

@@robchuk4136 also one thing that really bothered me about Korra and Asami was that Korra initially was into Mako and seduced him to cheat on Asami. Then there was this back and forth with these three until Korrasami happened. My first thought when looking back at the show was "why the hell did Asami get together with Korra, the same person who got your boyfriend to cheat on you with." Like, if you want to have characters together, that's fine. But atleast make it make sense.

[@shannonmcelroy8454]

​@aryoph9224 I mainly think the ways these characters were mishandled were mainly selfishness on the writers' part. If you look back at early Q&As, you'll notice the main way they described Mako in particular was that he was a tall, dark, and handsome pretty boy, so that was likely what was important to them in the creative process. They basically were like Dark Helmet playing with action figures of the heroes and playing out what he would want them to do to each other.

[@aryoph9224]

​@@shannonmcelroy8454yeah, I hate the fact of what they did to some of the characters. There would have been great potential for them but they just decided to not think too much about it. A shame really.

[@flayjunior18]

Jean Grey x Scott Summer. All betrayal, infidelidates, children from other timelines and other people. I think why is so popular? Wolverine was no better. Even Superman x Lois Lane today.

[@GM-yg9nq]

I don't mind Harley's character straying away from her Joker obsession. I think there could be some interesting character study there if done right. But doing so by shifting her interest to Ivy feels forced as hell. The friendship with them was way more interesting than the new romance between them.

[@Luciphell]

7:45 You really think they would pass up the chance to shoehorn in "Strong empowered female tames the savage toxic masculinity within" in story form? 0_o please "Sun's gettin' real low..."

[@jadbayram496]

In harlivy's case it's "strong empowered female tames the toxic femininity" and I find that inappropriate given that ivy hates people in general, and harley on her high horse is annoying because she still does bad things, but it's also hilarious that people made it up

[@John93965]

The Black Widow/Hulk romance isn't all that bad.

[@LordReginaldMeowmont]

Black Widow was such a badass until she was ruined.

[@alishanightshade3270]

The bad ship I don’t like is Monster High: Toralei x Clawdeen. Toralei is a bully. She pranks Clawdeen’s friends and make them feel bad. Clawdeen is someone who stand up and protect others. Have love interest with a bully? When I talked about this in the community, people will said I hate lgbtq+. Don’t mix them up. Toralei is lesbian but it doesn’t make her not a bully. And making a heroine character fall in love with her is just out of place.

[@Rose-cq3bf]

I’m fully convinced the only reason they’re together is bc one is a dog and the other is a cat it’s like fanon random pro ships are making it into mainstream media

[@astridgog890]

Mann especially the comic bro I'm so sorry Cleo and Deuce Cleo failing out of love with him g1 not g3 I mean I feel like we should keep g1 and g3 stories separated 😭 AND BEFORE YALL GET ME I LOVE G3 stories 😭

[@Ms.FoxyOxO]

Personally, I wish that the rest of G1's lore was left ambiguous/discontinued. It was established by Monster High's official IG account that G1 and G3 exist in different universes, but it feels like the current people who are working on Monster High want G1 to mirror G3 more in terms of canon. That creative choice kind of defeats the point in having alternative universes imo.

[@remy2968]

An argument can me made about Black Widow. In age of Ultron she's been with the Avengers for some time now as well as Shield who she thought was good. You could say she was finally in a place where she feels like she's home and comfortable and her opening up like that, making her softer is the natural direction to take her.

[@Crimzon_Nova]

Ivy and Harley could’ve been an awesome female criminal dynamic duo sortve thing. Sisters in arms, BFFs in the criminal world in all that, taking on Batman. They did not need to make them a couple!

[@blacksmoke6292]

I only say "it's in the comics" sometimes because people usually complain about some adaption not being faithful to the source.

[@kayleighdriessen]

Alot of to nearly most ships ever made in this world of social media are bad to sometimes even toxic (Klance from Voltron is how I first got introduced to these scary shipping-wars, I was indifferent about shipping and I just found Keith and Lance great characters inside and outside of their ship-dynamic, what did my teenage-self get myself into?) especially when they're forced due to this toxic societal idea that every single character/person needs to find their "happily ever after" through a romantic partner even if certain characters aren't even interested in romance or raising children due to trauma or lifestyle-preferences or sexual orientation you name it.

[@RoseBaggins]

Oh, I hated the Klance ship, mostly because of the shippers. Die hard Kallura/Plance shipper here. 😅

[@SPRX77]

@@RoseBagginsey welcome to the club!

[@RoseBaggins]

@@SPRX77 🤝 part of a few Discord and Tumblr groups and have even written fanfic!! 😁

[@pocaiesc]

Maybe not quite the same but most of the "romance" in Harry Potter made me feel this way when I read through the books. Harry and Ginny ( Ginny is a terrible person, and character, and putting Harry together with some one whose only defining trait for 5 out of 7 books was "Harry Potter fangirl" is just kinda insulting to Harry), Ron and Hermione ( Rowling admitted several times that THAT was a mistake), George and Angelina (HIS DEAD TWINS EX!?...what?). It's hard to enjoy the story when that's the ending for the characters.

[@1234redwing]

The entirety of Korra was awful, I couldn't finish season 1 because the love triangle was just so god-awful and annoying

[@cbbartman1360]

Just listening to this makes me glad you haven;t touched RWBY pretty sure that can send anyone into cardiac arrest from its ships to mental gymnastics plots to character assassinations XD

[@oscarborjajr1176]

Oh yeah. I can't stand some of these rwby ships like white rose or rose garden, and especially bumblebee/wasps ship. I fucking can't stand that ship in any shape or form. It was never planned at all, the creator even said he wanted team rwby to be a sisterhood and them as sisters. Also no people like crwby and especially people like arryn like to claim it was planned ( mostly to make blake into her own o.c. and weird fetish fanfic) but it wasn't at all. That ship is one had a huge hand on why people left rwby and was done with the fandom and killed rwby ans the characters. Also no I don't believe the bi excuse, they all staight, not gay or bi or pan or ect. I pray to god that rwby get lock in the vault or reboot it and get rid of these ships especially bumblebee/wasps. Heck none of those scenes make any sense at all, if you replaced blake and put ruby with yang in all those forced ship scenes and adjust it not make sense but it makes it where ruby and yang act as sisters and show they care about one another like there supposed to. Because there zero reasons why tang would eve have feelings for blake. Same with blake because ahe have shown numerous evidences to like guys likw sun. Same with everyone in team rwby.

[@shannonmcelroy8454]

I'll have to start using the term "mental gymnastics plot" now that I know it has a name.

[@dylansmith5206]

​@@oscarborjajr1176What about the crossover ships Since there's one crossover ship that didn't make me want to shove pencils in my eyes Good Ol Dragon Fruit (Yang X Izuku From Boku No Hero Academia) Which I prefer over all the cannon crap

[@shadowbolthaseo1861]

Yes I stopped watching rwby after yang and Blake got together They redcon yangs preference after the creator died she whent from only showing interest in guys to out of nowhere now she is lesbian not even bi or pan no just lesbian now out of nowhere and they completely ignored everything between black and sun there development, there grow and clear love for each other and made black go from cool mystery girl to just yangs girlfriend it pissed me off so I stopped watching

[@PeterJosephRivera]

they should have shown how Natasha Learned how to Calm Hulk down with the sun is getting real low thing...

[@romana34]

You do realize this has been going on for a very long time, I can think of examples going back to the 90s when I was a teenager,and I can even think of books from the 19th century, where characters were forced into relationships; i.e. little women where Louisa Alcott was told she had to have her characters end up married.

[@regishel]

Of the issues I've read of the recent #PoisonIvy Solo Comic, the relationship with Harley was actually interesting, I feel like their relationship can be done well with good writers🤷‍♀️

[@jturner2577]

Well that's good to hear.

[@crystalfairy912]

This whole “changing the characters for a ship” is why I couldn’t even finish A Court of Thorns and Roses. It was mediocre, but after hearing which ship is endgame, and what the guy did to his “mate” before they were a couple, the first book became a waste of my time and investment.