A Muslim's Four Objections to the Trinity | Part Two

[@jandj8355]

Thanks for responding to this with the truth. Praise the Triune God!

[@mattm7798]

The interesting thing about Muslim apologists that deny the Trinity is how much they use the Bible for their points. They could easily just say "we believe the Koran is the word of God, and the Bible isn't, and the Koran denies the trinity". Instead they use the same old tired arguments Unitarians have tried for centuries.

[@nschlaak]

I agree that they could however the Muslims have a Trinity in the Quran. Allah, the Spirit of Allah, and the Word of Allah. Satan mimics God in order to best deceive people. After all, the best lie has the truth embedded deep inside of it.

[@mattm7798]

@@nschlaak Hmmm, I didn't know that. I admit I am not well versed on Muslim theology. I thought the Muslim view of God was uni-personal(what we might call unitarianism). One thing I find fascinating is why the Koran denies the cross itself IIRC. There must be something very powerful that Satan hates about that. Jehovah Witnesses deny it also, claiming Jesus died on a stake of some sort. Seems an odd hill to die on.

[@nschlaak]

@mattm7798 Sam Shamoun, David Wood, the Christian Prince, and God Logic in debating their religious leaders have pointed these facts out. According to Muslim theologians Allah is uncreated, the Quran, is uncreated, and the Spirit that was breathed life into Adam and created Jesus in Mary's womb is uncreated. I've heard the Muslim apologists tap dance around this while trying to explain it but so far they haven't succeeded.

[@Real_LiamOBryan]

@@mattm7798 The Islamic belief is, as you say, "uni-personal". What the other chap is pointing out is that the arguments Muslims typically use against Christians, about three not being able to be one, cut against their own worldview. In other words, they believe in only one person in Allah, but they do have a complex unity in their worldview; therefore, they are inconsistent when they accuse Christians of so-called "illogically" believing that three can--somehow--be one.

[@mickraybam6012]

@@Real_LiamOBryan 1 Thess 5:23 people are body soul and spirit… that is triune as well…

[@estimatingonediscoveringthree]

3:13 where in the Bible does it say to refer to church fathers for doctorine or to other creeds? Or mainstream ecclesiastical traditions? We should be going to the Bible, and that is where you guys air and become irrelevant as a source of truth.

[@grasonicus]

_We should be going to the Bible_ Right. And nowhere in the Bible will you find the Trinity. On the contrary...

[@grasonicus]

There are more than four insurmountable objections to the Trinity dogma. 1) 1+1+1=3, not 1. Obfuscation won't help. 2) Mutually exclusive conditions can't coexist--Jesus is fully God and fully man, like fully cat and fully dog, or fully whale and fully mosquito. A god who becomes fully man won't be able to revert back to a god because someone who is fully man can't do that. 3)Something as important as the nature of God would be fully spelled out in the Bible. It is, and nowhere as a Trinity. 4)Jesus said the Father is the *only* true God, and Paul said, _for us, there is _*_one God, the Father..._* There are more, but only one is enough to sink the Trinity dogma. The definition of philosophy is, _unconstrained speculation._ Here's a little ditty I call _the philosopher's song._ Come, let's light the crack pipes, Willy We'll draw on them both hard and long We'll talk about the sound of one hand clapping Then we'll sing a mystic, purple song

[@MarkPatmos]

1 x 1 x 1 = 1

[@grasonicus]

@@MarkPatmos _1 x 1 x 1 = 1_ Most Trinitarians won't even fall into this trap. You think addition and multiplication are interchangeable. You'll be happy for 4+5+6 to be 15 or 120. Even a preschooler knows when to use addition and when to use multiplication. but not you. How far did you go in school?

[@MarkPatmos]

@@grasonicus I didn’t realise you were being serious with 1 + 1 + 1 = 3 refutation of trinity. Are you a Muslim? Yes, there are three persons but in essence and substance there is one God. 1 + 1 + 1 = 3 isn’t a refutuation of doctrine of the Trinity, it is trying to turn Trinity into polytheism to refute it.

[@mickraybam6012]

Allh isn’t omnipresent nor spirit, which is why islm struggles to comprehend the G-d of Abraham.

[@ChappySinclair]

Muslims, Jews and Christians all believe in the god of Abraham.

[@mickraybam6012]

@ the G-d of Abraham is spirit, genesis 1:2, saying allh is spirit is haram. So allh isn’t G-d.

[@ChappySinclair]

@@mickraybam6012 Allah means God Arabic.

[@mickraybam6012]

@ yes, it means god…any god…it’s not a specific name. Allh isn’t spirit. The G✝️d of Abraham is spirit. They can’t be the same then can they.

[@ChappySinclair]

@@mickraybam6012 Allah is the general term in Arabic for the God of Abraham. This isn't complicated.

[@nmdale78]

If one looks into Islam historically it becomes apparent that it was originally a Christian sect...Jesus being The Mohammad. i.e. The Praised One. For instance the Dome of the Rock has inscribed on its ambulatory phrases attacking Jesus's divine nature and then summarises the text, Mohammed is the Messenger of God. In other words the whole text is about Jesus and it ends by affirming Jesus is the praised one, but only a messenger of God. Why is this important... because these lines predate the Qur'an and are duplicated in the opening passages of the Quran. The early Quran was entirely about Jesus until it syncretized other beliefs to create a portmanteau character.... Mohammed. So where did the phrase of the Dome come from. Prior to the Dome the first Caliph was clearly a trinitarian Christian, see his writings and coinage. But when the second caliph came to power he did so in opposition to Constantinople. By that time this sect of Christianity, like others since, became Unitarian. So this ascendent kingdom built the Dome and inscribed on it, its theology of Jesus in political competition with Constantinople. It was as much a political affirmation that declared its independence from the Eastern Roman Empire as a theological one. So this new Christian sect defined itself in opposition to Byzantine theology...which is why Islam seems so obsessed by Christianity, it WAS a rebellious child of Christianity. The sect evolved and accrued various beliefs, including some Buddhist thinking. The Quran evolved with it and was eventually consolidated into something that looks a bit like what we have today. In this iteration The Mohammad simply became Mohammed and gnostic stories pointing to Jesus were incorporated and re-pointed to him. And so this new movement like the Jews, who had Moses, and the Christians who had Jesus now had its own Arabic prophet to unify its growing empire. Search pfander films on KZbin for more details.

[@pescatoralpursuit1726]

Interesting. Am I inferring you don't believe in the historical figures: Mohammed and Jesus Christ?

[@ji8044]

There is no Trinity in the Bible. Jesus and all the disciples believed he was born human but was anointed by God the Father to be the messiah. Even Paul always wrote that Jesus was inferior to God the Father. It was Augustine who essentially gave us the Trinity which we have today.

[@MarkPatmos]

I think even though Jesus had a limited conscious awareness and limited physical location and form while human, he wasn’t completely separate from God the Father and the Holy Spirit through his soul. Jesus prays to God the Father and maybe can receive guidance as well as knowledge. Also the Holy Spirit may assist Jesus with miracles (e.g. passage where Jesus refers to blasphemy against the Holy Spirit). It is also the Holy Spirit who initiates the human existence of Jesus in the womb of Mary.

[@grasonicus]

_I think..._ That explains the Trinity dogma--no facts and logic, only speculation and crack dreams.

[@grasonicus]

_I think_ Reality does not depend on what you think, it is what it is.

[@MarkPatmos]

@@grasonicusIf you claim to know the exact truth about God, maybe you should think

[@grasonicus]

@@MarkPatmos _you claim to know the exact truth about God,_ Only in so far as it is explicitly stated in the Bible. The Trinity is nowhere explicitly stated. And really, to think addition and multiplication are interchangeable? Solomon said something like, the wise man listens and becomes wiser still, but the fool opens his mouth and nonsense comes out of it. This is paraphrased.

[@MarkPatmos]

@ Yes, you should try to learn from Solomon. Even though Solomon didn't live perfect life and wasn't perfect role model🤦‍♂️

[@estimatingonediscoveringthree]

Bill spent a lot of time at working to be or I should say appear to be consistent while appealing to and naturalistic evolutionary framework for biology and then appeal to spiritual events that cannot be explained with natural meat. It’s kind of a waste of time listening to him because his view just don’t work because he’s trying so hard to hold onto naturalistic causation so I would recommend not listening and unsubscribing from anything to do with Biola please don’t send your children there

[@urbanfranko]

Islam is very basic. It doesn't understand quantum physics

[@grasonicus]

_It doesn't understand quantum physics_ 1+1+1=1 is not quantum physics, it's nonsense.

[@estimatingonediscoveringthree]

Bill spent a lot of time at working to be or I should say appear to be consistent while appealing to and naturalistic evolutionary framework for biology and then appeal to spiritual events that cannot be explained with natural meat. It’s kind of a waste of time listening to him because his view just don’t work because he’s trying so hard to hold onto naturalistic causation so I would recommend not listening and unsubscribing from anything to do with Biola please don’t send your children there