Old School Discipline: The Company Courts Martial during the Napoleonic Wars...You will be shocked!

Official military courts martials aren’t always the best way to punish wayward soldiers.
In the Napoleonic era…the British army had a number of official ways to discipline men who broke the rules - you can learn more about floggings etc in my earlier videos.
But did you know that there was another tier of court martial? One that was often quicker, easier and more effective than doing things by the book…let’s find out more from Zack White - host of the Napoleonic Wars Podcast and expert on crime and punishment during the era.
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[@rooferization]

I'm ex R.N. I joined 1975 we occasionally got someone that didn't shower regularly, we had the facilities onboard, soldiers do not. We simply dragged them fully clothed to the showers and scrubbed them with a yard brush. Yes in mostcases it was not just personal hygiene but thier kit as well.

[@MichaelKng-fk5jk]

Regimental baths were still a thing in the late 80's and through the 90's. Happed out of sight in the barrack block but, everyone knew it happened. Taking round the back was very much a thing in Germany, I had an SSM who was well known for "my punishment or, charged?" No one took the charge. Late 90's, early 2000's when I was back in UK, it still happened though only certain NCOs & SNCOs and carefully offered because the climate had changed. I put my lads and lasses on weekend guards, could still attract a lot of trouble if caught doing that, it was well known to happen and better than charging the Soldier and; them losing money.

[@dougearnest7590]

That sort of punishment providing plausible deniability for the officers doesn't always come off as planned: "This is going to be 'Let's hope Professor Ritson meets with a little accident' all over again. We spent nine months hoping that Professor Ritson would meet with an accident before Leslie made it clear it was an accident that WE were supposed to make happen."

[@shep8851]

When I served in the 1980s there were examples of Sergeants punching soldiers instead of on the record charges and of Regimental baths ( trough bath )

[@chillaxter13]

In the 1990's we (quietly) had what was called "Wall to wall counseling". Off the record corrective corporal punishment that avoided all the paperwork and career damage.

[@jon9021]

Same here.

[@AJPMUSIC_OFFICIAL]

​@@chillaxter13face or gut was it?

[@Beauloqs]

Yup same detail here in the 80s, punch to the chest used to get your attention....

[@SnoopReddogg]

Affectionately referred to as 'Dead Ground Counselling' in the Australian Infantry.

[@richtea615]

'Where'd you learn to fight, sir?' 'Same place as you--Saturday night in the gutter.'

[@mattyallen3396]

Hidings in the barracks still happen.

[@EricDaMAJ]

It’s so quaint you discuss this as if it’s ancient history. In the US Army we call it “wall to wall counseling.” It’s supposed to have gone away in the 1980s yet it persists. And the US Army is supremely gentle compared to most other armies. Take the South Korean Army. Their physical discipline is not just accepted but expected, encouraged, and not even hidden. It’s the default in Soviet influenced armies.

[@timengineman2nd714]

In the US Navy it was called "Bulkhead Management"!

[@Hercules1-v9m]

Better a black eye than a black mark in your permanent record.

[@MrDubyadee1]

When I was in the Army we had “blanket parties”. The offender would be surprised while asleep in his bunk. He’d be covered with a blanket (so he couldn’t identify his assailants) and then people would beat him. Sometimes the steel pot of a helmet was used, but the idea was to cause pain and fear, but not serious injury. Teach a lesson, but don’t kill the student.

[@richardodonoghue]

not sure about the teeth thing, as a nurse i had a client who had as a young man in the 50's been biting people, the doctor at the time decided the simple solution was to remove all his teeth - and this was commonplace then and an 'acceptable' way to deal with the issue. this was 70 years ago, so 80 years prior to that - it would not surprise me for it to have been a simple solution.

[@TheScruph]

I was in from 1968 ( yes I’m an old fart ) and scrubbing for being dirty was a thing, also a slap for being a twat was par for the course.

[@Rockhopper1]

there was also the tailgate punishment reserved for officers on operations or exercise, the young officer would be asked to help with the tailgate on a truck, as they go to reach it, the tailgate is swung down making a noise, and one of the blokes, would punch the officer in the face and walk off. The seniors would ask what happened and it would be told to them it was a tailgate accident. The seniors were not stupid and there would have been a reason for it, oftentimes it made them better officers.

[@lynxfirenze4994]

I've heard a few stories of similar things in more recent times, but honestly it doesn't seem like the worst idea

[@tombogan03884]

It wasn't about "Army discipline" from the Commander. It was "Barracks discipline" from the people who lived with him.

[@Rockhopper1]

I have seen three regimental baths in my career where the blokes have been thrown in a bath and bass brooms and soap have been thrown in and scrubbed screaming, and I have been offered round the back by a sergeant, and we had a set to, I won, this was up to around 2002. My RSM would get you in the office and offer you top, middle, or bottom, you give your choice and they you were punched in that area,

[@Oldman525]

Company discipline was in the 1980s British Army extra duties, fines, or restriction of privileges.

[@jamescstanley5018]

The beauty of the CCM is that the whole procedure is carried out by the man's own unit, by the guys he bunks with, works with and spends time with. In this way it is within the family, as it were, without "outsiders" ie officers being involved. Another punishment I have heard of is to be sent to Coventry, where a man is only spoken to by NCO's and above, so for a period of time he has ceased to exist so far as his "mates" are concerned. I understand that is was imposed when a man's language in front of the wives who followed the troops were present. I believe that these women were treated with the greatest respect by their husbands fellow soldiers, something that I have been told continues to this day when a unit wife is treated with exaggerated respect by their husbands company.

[@automatic6216]

So it's basically Colonel Jessup's Code Red.

[@jamescstanley5018]

As I see it, a Company Courts Marshall is a way to disapline a soldier without causing friction between the officers and men. For example, theft from a member of your own unit would be dealt with by that unit, if it went to a GMC, there was the real possibility of a hanging, resulting in the loss of a man. Quite often these theives were the company "scrounger", something every unit has and an essential part of the unit, how else would the odd bottle magically appear, the chicken for dinner when there was no coup, or that essential bit of lost kit be replaced? To be punished by your "own" was a far greater disgrace. If flogged, you are effectively "taking one for the team" and, as such have a certain status in your peer group, however, to be punished by your peer group meant that you had no status, no fellow feeling, and were considered largely an outcast, and you had to work hard (scrounging for the group?) to get back into the good graces of your mates. While I have not served myself, various friends who have, both officers and other ranks, have told me tales of this method of "self disapline" within the company.

[@Oscarhobbit]

Your channel is something very special. I always enjoy your videos, they are up there with History Hit TV.

[@redcoathistory]

Thanks. That means a lot, especially given they have a large team and a budget and I’m a one man show also working full time on a day job 👍🏼💪🏼🙏

[@24934637]

Chances are that back then every regiment would have had a farrier, horses were in common use for officers! The 'Regimental bath' anecdote IS true. Even when I was in the Air Cadets in the 1980s, that technique (Maybe not quite as extreme as being scrubbed red raw) was being used on cadets who got smelly on annual camp. They'd get thrown in a cold bath, with bleach, and scrubbed with sweeping brushes. Normally it only happened to the worst person, and the camp hygiene improved dramatically!

[@richardpiper6265]

In the early 1970’s a person could be threatened in the army by a blanket party. A blanket could be thrown over the culprit and then punched. One person in our basic training unit slept on top of his bed with his boots and clothes on. He was forced to strip and cold and hot water were poured on him and he was scrubbed with a brush. He went and complained to a sergeant who told him he needed more cleaning since his wrists were still black. When we had thefts at night, there was a MP raid and finally the thieves were caught but there was only 3 hours of sleep which we needed since we all had bad colds in the winter. I later got pneumonia. Good times. Not! Oh another sergeant got sent away for breaking a recruit’s ribs with a broom stick.

[@McNab1986]

Basically no form of punishment will ever be as effective as punishment from your own people, ie, why the military started punished the company rather than the individual, cause then the company punishes the individual in private

[@MadMax-bq6pg]

An Unlawful Discharge occurred at the pistol range (get your minds out of the gutter, he squeezed the trigger of a Browning when he should not have). The NCO running the range shoot knew if there was an investigation, the private would get significant jail time, as he had slightly wounded himself and everyone present was moving into a combat zone in less than 6 days. NCO doles out a fist flogging to the spot, a medic mate looks after where the perpetrator had definitely not shot himself, and everyone practices the phrase “I have no recollection of that , your Worship”. Everyone ships out on time, no investigation, & why would there be, when nothing happened.

[@TomFynn]

An old acquaintance of mine was an NCO in the Bundeswehr decades ago, being at the time range officer. A soldier had a misfire, turned around and, while fiddling with the rifle, walked up to him asking for help. He took the rifle from the soldier and socked him with all his might (was was a lot). Nothing ever came of it, disciplinary wise.

[@MadMax-bq6pg]

@@TomFynn as my dear old Dad (WW2 sergeant) used to say ‘no names, no pack drill’

[@Bazookatone1]

The "pulling all his teth out" seems implausible, simply because the chances of infection would be so high

[@simonrobson2293]

When i was in basic training 79,uk infantry,you did get a punch if you did anything wrong,in battalion usually it was the senior guardsmen who would sort out the person that wasnt up to scratch,in fact quite openly an nco would say sort him out

[@larrya.gresham8314]

"Up to a flogging". In the case of the "non washing" soldier, the initial "scrubbing" was I'm guessing proceeded by a flogging of bars of soap wrapped in either a piece of cloth or toweling by two buddies. One on either side of your bunk or one high one low if only one bunkside existed, just a few "good, we have your attention? W-A-S-H-!" Works now. Probably did then.

[@larrya.gresham8314]

As for our "dental" offender......Yes the furrier made a suggestion. If the "Courts Martial" transcript states NO exact removal, then it was the threat of all teeth yanked that convinced the offender to swear loyalty once more thus teeth to tear the cartridge and discipline preserved by pulling just the rotten teeth which increased health for the individual as well as the unit, but "kept it local" as any military unit past or present prefers how discipline/esprite de corp be carried out .

[@Aelxi]

Now that's soldiering

[@silviarosati-t9t]

cari militari siete avvertti

[@SnoopReddogg]

Bloodsport for all!!!!!

[@noahoktay4294]

very cool video

[@timengineman2nd714]

I could easily see the Sargent "Suggesting" to the Captain and the Lieutenants, that this evening "would be a wonderful time to go up to the Regimental Mess and be seen by the Colonel and his Majors".... And the "problem child" will have "slipped and fallen" while they were away!

[@royhayes-ry6rw]

regimental bath. alive and well in the 80,s. a good thump from Troop Sgt also used, saw an officer receve one too.

[@macducati2304]

As a former soldier we did give dirty lazy soldiers a 'Regimental Bath' which entailed filling a bath with cold water, then a group of lads would drag the dirty soldier and throw him in the bath. We would then throw Vim on him and scrub him with big brushes, known as Bass Brooms. This did work and was effective.

[@DrMikeOckhertz]

When somebody needed squaring up without official involvement they were given what was known as the "Mechanic's course". The CSM would take you round the back of the garages and "show you how it worked" hence the name.

[@jon9021]

RAC basic training in the late 80’s in Catterick, and any kind of punishment detail was still called “jankers”!

[@ghjgbnhjjghjthknvf6379]

British soilders ripped the cartridge paper with their hands not with their teeth... so I think the teeth pulling may be more likely than you think.

[@hammerqos]

Love these videos you have made. . Zulu wars my favourite but all good.

[@camrenwick]

A Regimental bath, was sometimes done within the Troop, to sort out the the grots

[@keithagn]

Sounds more "efficient"(?)...

[@charleskokel6602]

Lol sounds like stuff that still happens today.

[@lornbaker1083]

Sharpe was always known as being the sort who didn't like Officers who looked down on those who were brought up through the rank. He was Also in the book's famous for winning over his Troops by showing them that he was really no different than them.

[@organisten]

No. It is not "the whole thing is not legal", it is "NONE of it IS legal".

[@redcoathistory]

Thanks - a very important point. I'm sure that you write in to Radio 4 every morning when they split an infinitive also :-)

[@organisten]

@@redcoathistory Radio 4? Dost thou think we all live in the UK?

[@nautifella]

I rode a US Navy Submarine in the 80s (SUBPAC) We had a guy decide to see how long he could go without showering or washing his clothes. He was Machinist's Mate, so he working the hot and dirty engineering space, get hot and dirtier in the process. After about a week, he started to smell like a corpse. The COB told the captain and he scheduled a wardroom meeting at the same time. After the dinner meal, he got up and looked at all of us staring at him. Stripped his clothes off and left them in the Trash disposal area, and went an took a shower. We would knuck it up to settle disputes between us, low key and no face shot. Wardroom knew but we had that boat running like a _Swiss Watch_ And it killed a grudges.

[@johnvelas70]

We had a guy in Boot Camp (Great Mistakes 1991) who only showered with soap 1 day a week. We scrubbed him with a toilet brush til he bled. He never again didn't use soap.

[@johnmuers2146]

OC's orders company punishment. Not recorded at regimental. CO'S Regimental recorded level on regimental entry on a conduct sheet. Then Court Martial. Punishment metered out at company level. Restriction of Privileges. Cookhouse! Cleaning duties. Extra guard etc. Company sheet wiped after so long. 1978 I joined

[@redcoathistory]

I guess some things never change!

[@jgunther3398]

Bloody awful. Good job Washington put a stop to them, what?

[@test-201]

i like to call him jorge shultzheimerbergstein, its more.. american

[@markmcpherson1385]

My lived experience--During trainIng in the 1970’s a regimental bath sorted out those who were shower-shy/ had an aversion to water, an accidental closed locker door on those light-fingered individuals, and NCO’s would take those that did not ‘comply’ for a walk behind the building for a ‘chat.’ And ONLY ONCE did the majority get punished of the the individual. Discipline was discipline - everyone was aware, no- one squealed/cried, sort counselling, told their mum’s, wrote to the news papers/Sky news, posted sh** on social media or screamed human rights. Everyone accepted it, and everything in the section ran smoothly. That is the way close units were ran, it does not make it right but it worked every well. it was controlled - not bullying or sadistic, but necessary for combat. For that we old sweats are truly grateful. Per Ardua.