In Search of Nitrogen

[@jamesvanantwerp1516]

Although this channel's content is a lot of gardening tips, it's also great to see more of the philosophy behind this project peek thorugh, as it has been doing more frequently the last few months. The "why" always informs the "how". These are important issues, and I'm glad to see you adress them in an apropriate and accessable way.

[@BalticHomesteaders]

The why and the ability to critically think so so missing in society. Never stop asking the why, like a child :)

[@REDGardens]

Thank you for that encouraging comment. The “why” always informs the “how” is an interesting way of putting it, thanks. For me the “why” always seems to be the interesting part of it all.

[@REDGardens]

@@BalticHomesteaders 😀

[@FireflyOnTheMoon]

Yes, but Bruce is not an ideologue and that is a great part of the value of the videos. He's not here to brow beat us, which is refreshing. Science first.

[@Electedsphinx40]

This channel has a nice insightful comment section

[@REDGardens]

Yeah, the comment section is great! A wide range of people inputting, without the aggression found in so many other comment sections.

[@DeadeyeJoe37]

Another option that is probably more feasible in an urban environment is used coffee grounds from coffee shops. I'll regularly grab 20-50 lbs of used coffee grounds from Starbucks. I'll add it to my compost (awesome at heating it up to finish it) or mix into my mulch. It's 2-.5-.5 npk. It's pretty much neutral pH since most of the acidity and caffeine was leached out into the coffee. Best part is that it's free and normally would be thrown out.

[@KerriEverlasting]

Be wary of adding coffee grounds directly to soil at the base of plants, without a long composting first coffee grounds kill plants. 💖

[@DeadeyeJoe37]

@@KerriEverlasting you have to do that with any higher nitrogen mulch. I accidentally did that with grass clippings also. Basically, it caused the stem to rot and kill the plant. That's why I mix it into the mulch and keep about an inch space from the plant.

[@familyfruit9833]

How did you go about approaching the coffee shop? I want to do this, but the way I'm imagining it (at break neck speed because they always seem in such a hurry in those places): "next please" "double espresso" "next please" "two lattes please" "next please" "er can I have your used coffee grounds please" [puzzled baristo isn't getting through the long queue any longer]

[@DeadeyeJoe37]

@@familyfruit9833 I called the Starbucks and asked if they had used coffee grounds I can have. Others in my area do the same thing so they were ok with it. I've tried some other places and usually have no problem. I've had to explain it a couple times. Usually if you call in advance you can then tell someone behind the bar that you called in for the used coffee grounds. They're usually happy to let you take it because they don't have to haul it all the way to the dumpster. It's always nice to drop a tip into the tip jar also, or buy something (I don't drink coffee myself, but one coffee shop has a killer peanut butter brownie I'll get if I'm feeling naughty)

[@familyfruit9833]

@@DeadeyeJoe37 thanks

[@evilestmark]

Your commentary on all sides of the issue is far and away the most round and well considered of any gardener I have encountered in real life or on the internet. I also greatly appreciate the depth and breadth of your research and that you share the results with us all. You are one of my KZbin heroes! Please keep up your wonderful and inspiring work.

[@REDGardens]

Wow, thanks for that really supportive comment!

[@DenkerNZ]

A suggestion: See if you can get the spent grains from any local breweries. It's quite easy to get a constant supply via brewery, and usually they're very glad to have someone take it off their hands. Spent grains from the brewing process would be work a lot like the rolled oats in application.

[@REDGardens]

I have used some in the past, when we were doing som home brewing, but don't have a source at the moment.

[@sokolyslager8860]

Just discovered this channel. Love it! Straight forward, no bs.

[@REDGardens]

🙂

[@ricktruman1416]

I know I'm late, but you really have given me a lot of insight on replenishing the nitrogen into my soil. I am lucky and have the ability to move my main garden every year for a cover crop. But other small gardens in my property don't have that luxury.

[@ouroldtruck9380]

I'm glad you mentioned humanure and urine . As long as we fertilize the oceans and then complain about algae growth on our favorite beaches we will have to be completely reliant on industrial fertilizers. The instilled fear of our excrements is another narrative that keeps us reliant on fossil fuel. I like the way you are thinking. Most people would not realize that the organic manure they are using in their garden was originally also grown with industrial fertilizer. Well done video!

[@rulerofthelight]

most people's shit is just that. Tainted with antibiotics, hormones(birth control), and an dangerous amount of harmful bacteria from consuming garbage food.

[@ouroldtruck9380]

@@rulerofthelight So by using animal manures we assume that these animals never get fed tons of antibiotics and growth hormones? Pigs also never eat any restaurant scraps? We also believe that these antibiotics and hormones, which are based on natural products can not be broken down by soil and compost microbes? Well, I don't believe such narratives, sorry if you do.

[@SimpleEarthSelfReliance]

@@ouroldtruck9380 Well stated. While I don't use our composted humanure for vegetables, I do use it for trees and large feed area prep. When done right, thermophillic bacteria and friends, kill off all pathogens + there is time and other processes too. The reason I don't use it for our own food is simply because I don't have time and finances to test frequently and I am not certain if the composting process completed in my planned time frames. Also, when we handle our own dry toilet systems, we know what goes in, don't we ;)

[@rulerofthelight]

@@ouroldtruck9380 If you don't know what's in the shit, your roĺlng the dice no matter what animal it's from. an example would be horse manure that contains persistent herbicide from the hay they ate. Sure microbes might brake it down eventually but some last in the soil up to 3 years.

[@REDGardens]

I do find it interesting that we se some manure as 'good' and even desirable, but the stuff we produce is 'bad' and we need to shield ourselves form it at all cost, and treat it as a toxic substance. There are very valid reasons why we have made this distinction, mainly of course prevention of some fairly nasty diseases. But we can easily develop sensible systems to manage all of that, we don't need to pump it away. But the challenge is social and cultural, not so much in practical application.

[@kirawelty]

You always drop a new video related to my current concerns. I expanded my chickens to 10 hens for the free manure. Been debating what other amendments I might want. You have helped more of us than you could eve know. You rock!

[@REDGardens]

Awesome!

[@clivesconundrumgarden]

Complex questions and even more interesting answers. As new gardeners, this makes our heads spin, but it is enjoyable to think about. Comments are excellent as well Cheers from Victoria Canada

[@REDGardens]

Thanks, and glad to hear it wasn’t too inaccessible, but still provided things to be junk about! That is just about where I want to position my videos, at least relating to new gardeners.

[@clivesconundrumgarden]

@@REDGardens always enjoy your perspective:)

[@garrettmineo]

Very thoughtful discussion of bioavailable nitrogen. Thanks.

[@REDGardens]

👍

[@pedrosgarden]

One of the biggest problems I have with nitrogen fixing plants is knowing how much of that fixing is done in the roots and how many of it is done above the ground. Here in Portugal, lupine is the most common nitrogen fixing plant. I've now been cutting them down, because I need the space they're in to grow grass for my chickens, and throwing the greens into my compost pile. Not sure this is the best approach, but it is the one I've resorted to.

[@REDGardens]

I figure all of the nitrogen fixing is done in the roots, but most of it ends up in the leaves/stems/seeds.

[@leslienichols5268]

So many ways to look at this!

[@REDGardens]

Yep

[@kittencollective]

I'm often worried about bringing too much compost into my growing spaces - we produce literally tons of it by collecting our NYC neighbors' food scraps and fall leaves - but then I watch your channel...

[@REDGardens]

Yep! A lot of compost!

[@Im-just-Stardust]

I like your unbiased approach. Helps me a lot man for my first garden that I am starting now.

[@REDGardens]

👍🙂

[@sheelaghomalley3292]

A very relevant and timely video. Thank you

[@bobaloo2012]

Just about fell off my chair. Here in Oregon I sometimes use an almost identical pelleted chicken manure product. I buy 12 kg bags for about $4, or 3 euros per bag. Hard to imagine they charge you so much for it. It works great, I use a bag per 200 square foot bed in addition to my compost, I think it's great for the plants. I've now connected with a local farmer who raises chickens for eggs, I get a pickup load of pure chicken manure, about 1.5 tons, for $40 loaded in my truck. Regarding hay, keep an eye out for "spoiled" hay, I can get hay that's gotten rained on pretty much for hauling it away as horses can't eat it due to health concerns. Living in a very rural area does have some advantages.

[@thehumblefactory]

I can't help think that here in the US, generally speaking, if we're getting N nutrients from an agricultural source (chicken manure, fish pond sludge, pig manure, feather meal, etc) you're getting a subsidy by virtue of corn and soybean's exceptional ability to convert anhydrous ammonia into food. Those cheap food sources mean more abundant livestock/cost of feed, and therefore cheaper livestock by-products. So even if we're using non-fossil nitrogen sources, that nitrogen, and it's low cost end up being due to the availability of ammonia from fossil fuels on the very front end.

[@REDGardens]

Yeah, the difference in prices around the world is quite significant. Here in Ireland, importing from elsewhere adds to the costs, and with such a small and marginal market for the stuff, there isn't the same kind of economies of scale. I could get nitrogen a lot cheaper from a variety of sources, but because I have chosen to live without a car/truck, definitely limits a few cheaper options. But then all the money I don't spend of the truck, insurance, taxes and gas means I have a bit more cash to spend on getting things delivered, so possibly cheaper in the end. 😉

[@REDGardens]

@@thehumblefactory Very good point, especially when you consider that a lot of the stuff is waste material that would otherwise cost money to dispose of.

[@lynnmacro3044]

Almost everything is cheaper in the states mainly because your fuel is much cheaper - transportation costs drive the economy it seems.

[@slaplapdog]

I came back to watch this video a second time. It really gets to he heart of what it means to grow sustainably. All the sources of nitrogen are ultimately from plants. Your calculation of needing half the available growing season/ space to provide nitrogen for the other half made me think. perennial

[@REDGardens]

The more people who do that the easier feeding ourselves will be.

[@slaplapdog]

@@REDGardens I'm thinking about growing entire beds of comfrey for "Mobile Green Manure". Apparently that's what they call it when it's not grown in the same field it fertilizes. Growing Fava bean outdoors overwinter to feed greenhouse tomatoes is an an example of how it can prioritize the most valuable growing space. The oats and such you are trialing as fertilizer are also examples. Growing Azolla fern might be the most efficient form of this.

[@jeshurunfarm]

Thank you for all the effort you put into your videos. Respect from Africa 🇿🇦

[@REDGardens]

👍🙂

[@justkeepgoing2657]

This is making me want to grow twice the clover I planned for my meat rabbits

[@REDGardens]

🙂

[@titanlurch]

It's always about context. If you use green house and have egg production ,the way to maximize return would be to overwinter the chickens in the greenhouse . The soil would be purged of pests and enriched for the following growing season.

[@REDGardens]

I have bene thinking of trying that. Feed the hens with imported grain/feed/scraps and some of the nitrogen goes into the birds and eggs, and some of it will end up in the soil. But if i didn't want to manage the birds, there are a lot easier ways to get fertility int the soil.

[@titanlurch]

@@REDGardens Two enterprises on the same land might be better shared.

[@REDGardens]

@@titanlurch indeed.

[@daveshanks8205]

About the best talk on fertility I have viewed, ever. Not sure how I missed this first time out, but great to view it at last. So much said here resonates with me. I am using my own urine to feed my grass, which is cut and used in my compost. I am now playing around with using urine on Green manure, particularly the weaker stem types that can be smothered rather than cut or dug in; Alfalfa and Winter Tares are examples.

[@REDGardens]

Glad you liked it. Have you considered using urine directly in the vegetable garden?

[@Tsuchimursu]

I always try to add some liquid human fertiliser to the compost when I have the need and I'm out in the garden. Then balance it with plenty of wood chips or other less nutrient dense matter.

[@REDGardens]

A good practice to get into.

[@petermac6221]

Remember that the old growth forests don't buy the nitrogen that they need.We need to copy the way Mother Nature uses micro organisms to make soils fertile and alive.The work of Elaine Ingham follows this path.I really enjoy the way you examine different aspects of growing in detail.Thankyou.

[@REDGardens]

There are a lot of possibilities, and I am interested in exploring Elain's work a lot more. But I am not sure that the forest is a good example, as complex ecosystems like that are great at recycling nutrients. In most vegetable growing, it is a one way extractive system, especially if you give away or sell some of the food. Generally, it seems, the rate of exporting, exceeds the rate that additional materials can be produced within the soil.

[@chantallachance4905]

I learn a lot about homemade fertilizer witth Korean natural farming M. Cho it work very well

[@REDGardens]

That is something I want to look into more.

[@douglas7998]

Have you considered spent grain from a brewery instead of rolled oats? I'm sure any local brewery would be happy to give you some.

[@REDGardens]

I have, and used spent grain from my home brewing in the past.

[@calebweldon8102]

I’ve relied on homemade compost, and urine for nitrogen over last few years

[@REDGardens]

That is a good combination.

[@melanieallen8980]

Interesting..cheers from Australia. 😊

[@REDGardens]

😀

[@ArkansasWoodcutter]

Great thoughts on a simple need of our plants. 👍

[@REDGardens]

Thanks!

[@Chris-op7yt]

excellent points raised. maybe one day we could develop a formula that incorporates the labor cost, nutrient availability rate, crop value and risk to crop by possible contaminants etc. i used to do these (organic) things and then realized that i was working hard and many hours, and never counting this as a cost, that it is. when it all takes up most of your time, which is part of your life lived, it's a high price to pay and pretend it was free.

[@wandamills4078]

WOW, that was quite the mouth full of great information. Thanks so much. Very interesting 🤔

[@REDGardens]

🙂

[@paulm2380]

Thank you. Great video.

[@REDGardens]

🙂

[@rogerclarke7407]

When I lived in Oshawa, I had a small pond (about 150 gallons) stocked with small fish. I used to water the garden from that for extra nitrogen, and when I rinsed out the filter I would dump that on the garden to, that made the plants jump. You'd see the difference over night. I know that scaling up a fish pond as a nitrogen source for your size of operation would be daunting, (I had enough birds and racoons eating the fish), but it's doable for a backyard garden.

[@REDGardens]

Interesting. If you fed the fish, that would be a good supply of nitrogen.

[@rogerclarke7407]

@@REDGardens After a while the fish will be eating the algae, so they only need a little bit of food. I'm not sure if you'd be better off composting that food you give the fish but it is definitely immediately available.

[@qtpwqt]

Lots to think about here , hopefully now that things are opening up again , the city will provide compost like they used to do before Covid. We have had to make do with what we could produce ourselves ( which we did ok , but not enough ) so we would make use of the free compost when we could get it. Your compost pile may be bigger than my gardens by the way.

[@REDGardens]

haha, yeah, I have a big area for making compost.

[@mihiranpinnagoda5884]

Work on Carbon N will atomatically get fixed.

[@peterkoolwijk439]

Dear Bruce, thank for your clear enumeration of all the possibilities to get Nitrogen back into the soil. It shows your systematic way of working to find answers and this is why I think your channel is the most recommended for any who wants to go into the details of growing food. I was starting to wonder whether you were going to mention the easiest, and, to me, the most obvious solution. You did at last: the closed loop. Use your own excrement. It is not only about Nitrogen, it is also about phosphate wich is being mined for the sake of conventional agriculture and is not an infinite resource either (we are actually close to start scraping the bottom of the barrel there) To all readers here: please drop the squeamishness about it. It's too important. For those who like to read more on this: there are not too many books. But look up "humanure". You'll find Joe Jenkins's work from many years ago. To me a very good read. Back to Bruce: thank you for all the great content through all the years. I have been on and off with the patron thing a few times during and will keep doing so, happy to support your work, but I'm also waiting for the book you surely should write! Greetings Peter

[@REDGardens]

Thanks Peter, for that supportive comment and your continued support of this channel and my work. That book has been started, barely, though I don’t know when I am going to find the time to write it. Use of urine is very important, and I only included a brief mention of it in this video as the video was already too long, and I wanted to do another video about it. Also I don’t have a lot of experience. I have used urine a bit, but not in a systematic alway that would allow me to say anything about its impact. So will wait for that, as I generally only talk about things I have enough experience with.

[@peterkoolwijk439]

@@REDGardens Looking forward to the book. My experience with use of urine is not greater than putting it on the compost. I did once fertilize the lawn with diluted urine and the difference was very clear: thicker, taller dark green grass. Have read the number that one persons urine is enough to fertilize about 1000 m2 lawn through the season (I believe you had to start collecting through the winter as well). Here in Sweden the municipality helped me with advice and gave a paper with fairly easy explanation how to go about without being connected to a sewer or not having a tank that needs to be emptied on a regular basis: outhouse, thick cardboard in the bottom, good layer woodchips on that, after doing your business let it rest for minimum 6 months at minimum 10 Celsius (under cover so nothing can leach). After given time 99% of the patogens have disappeared and you can empty the rest and let i further decompose as regular compost. Then all you would need are two outhouse or, a bit more practical, a small enough collector that you can exchange when it starts getting full.

[@nathanbrink6415]

I don't know how available they are in the EU, but I use alfalfa pellets exclusively for fertilizing my garden (other than compost). 2-1-2 NPK, cheap in bulk, and supposedly has growth hormones that contribute to plant growth (I don't know about that, but it sure does an excellent job)

[@REDGardens]

I have had a look for them here in Ireland, but have only found small supplies in niche horse supply shops. It sounds like they can be quite useful. Interesting to know that you have had good success with them.

[@Qopzeep]

Interesting, how much are you using per square metre/yard?

[@nathanbrink6415]

@@Qopzeep honestly, I've never measured, just side dress or toss a handful in planting holes. Quick math says it would be about .25 kg/sq meter for a standard fertilization schedule

[@nathanbrink6415]

@@REDGardens wasn't sure, thought that might be the case. Probably not hot enough to support a substantial alfalfa industry. They're quite cheap here in Montana (although, like everything, more expensive of late).

[@Qopzeep]

@@nathanbrink6415 thanks, alfalfa is relatively cheap here in continental Europe, so I'll give it a go :)!

[@drpk6514]

Remember composting and rotting release much of the nitrogen and is lost to the air or washed off. I would say bringing all the plant materials are wasted in the area to the farm is better, Another thing that most people dont know is all plants have symbiotic microorganisms that fix nitrogen. not as efficient as nodule-forming plants like pulses but still they do.

[@FrontYardGardener]

I did a side by side comparison of urine and weed tea as fertilizer. The weed tea proved better without a doubt.

[@TheSamba37]

I use some urine to soak my weeds for my weed tea.

[@FrontYardGardener]

@@TheSamba37 Cheers

[@REDGardens]

Interesting.

[@FrontYardGardener]

@@REDGardens I know from brewing beer that yeast increases the nutritional value of the ingredients. Maybe that and mineralization happens with a fermented weed tea/brew.

[@d.b.sorensen827]

here in America many people have been using alfalfa pellets (live stock feed) as it is relatively cheep and high in nitrogen and also is a slow release form.

[@REDGardens]

I searched for those, but they are not really available around here, which is a shame as they seem to work quite well for people.

[@ogadlogadl490]

@2:42 That is a beauty of a Pea plant, may I ask the variety?

[@REDGardens]

That is a broad bean plant, Masterpiece Green Longpod. The pea variety I usually use is Hurst Greenshaft

[@fpsninja1]

Another great video. I tend to grow legumes for the crop but always wonder if they are added or removing nitrogen from the soil

[@REDGardens]

I have heard different reports. Some say hardly anything is left if you harvest the peas and beans, others say that quit a bit of nitrogen can be transferred to the soil and other plants.

[@JoanEvangelista]

I wonder how far are you from a sea, lake or a river? A good source I'm looking into now is seafood waste (fish bones, scales, guts, shells, sea weed)

[@REDGardens]

It isn't so available around here.

[@arturomateo3920]

Briliant

[@avastone4772]

This is a great video. I wonder if it might be featured more in KZbin searches / recommendations and more KZbin users that don't know your channel (yet) would decide to "invest" the time to watch it if the title would be more descriptive.

[@REDGardens]

Thanks. I do need to work on the titles.

[@srjkpndt]

You are doing the work of animals like cow and goat. This is their work to eat greens and provide manure which can be used after heat composting (because of weed seed).

[@srjkpndt]

One to two cow will be enough i think for your plot.

[@REDGardens]

@@srjkpndt Perhaps, but I don't want to keep animals like that, and it isn't really possible in the context I am in (which is the same with many people)

[@srjkpndt]

In that case you can use the help of cowboy who can provide you with the cow manure. Problem solved and for leafy vegetables, goat manure is more suitable

[@terry.n.xiaohei]

🤤this why I love this channel... share knowledge that benefits whole world.. although I only can give per view to this video, but personally, I think this video can get higher price.. thank you.

[@REDGardens]

😀

[@huanyazhu825]

Love your videos and everything you do!!!, i have never heard from you talking about elaine inghams work, i wonder if you know about her and her work, some of her tecniques include making compost in specific ways to speed up life and using perennial covercrops to let the plants continously pump exudates to feed the soil web, i think it would be a wonderfull addition to your project

[@huanyazhu825]

I have also wondered if you have tried some of the sintropic agriculture methods, Ernst gotsch said that when he was a kid in Switzerland people there did something similar, and it produced a lot of food. Now sintropic agriculture is mainly spread in warmer climates but if something similar was done in Switzerland maybe it might work for you

[@emlillthings7914]

I've grown peas in almost pure biochar, after it was somewhat usable for other plants when it at first wouldn't (because biochar has very little N) One approach you might find useful is to plant N-fixing plants when planting others, especially root plants like potatoes. When the potatoes are up, I begin slashing the peas (eating the greens while soft), and eventually slash all, or leave a few which either matures well, or is choked by the potatoes. I still need to try out with more control groups, but it certainly doesn't seem to affect the potatoes negatively, but I can't say for certain if the N in the slashed pea-roots are made available for the potatoes (let alone other plants which typically need the peas removed sooner) But at the very least, you should be able to grow a appreciable amount of green manure. The N from such slash is quite noticeable when compost tests are done with very N poor substrate (which most tests I've done have been biochar, and endemic soils only viable to few rugged wild plants)

[@REDGardens]

That is very interesting. Thanks for sharing your experiences.

[@jamescatlover123]

Marigold helps with the nitrogen and deters pest

[@REDGardens]

I didn't know that marigolds are nitrogen fixing.

[@FrontierlessCraftsman]

Would there be any benefit to fermenting the rolled oats to speed up the breakdown and release of their nutrients?

[@REDGardens]

Hmm, I don't know. It would add more work.

[@FrontierlessCraftsman]

@@REDGardens true but no more than making a compost tea id guess

[@jessicaz5512]

Glad to be early to this great video!

[@REDGardens]

😀

[@ИринаСоколова-ф1о]

Thank you for your work and videos. Have you ever use JADAM for fertilising?

[@bobwilliams4528]

I use urine to excellerate my compost. I cover my garden with a thick layer of hay in off season and spray urine on top multiple times. By spring very little hay left.

[@REDGardens]

I think more people should do stuff like that!

[@BalticHomesteaders]

Another really interesting and thought-provoking video, thank you Bruce. Sometimes closing the loop of fertilising seems like a holy grail. I keep thinking with all the abundance of biomass we have here we must be able to close the loop but I fear I'd be working 24/7 to do that. I have also been thinking more about the use of urine but seeing your numbers there it seems we will need a lot although it's just one of many potential inputs. I meant to make a video last year about what fertalisers are available here in Latvia as we do have a supplier of fishmeal who also make a seaweed meal product but I haven't seen commercial-scale bags available, I do like their product and use it extensively. 'Food for thought'. Thanks.

[@IvanHawkes]

I have "closed the loop" here. It's pretty cheap and easy and saves me a fortune in fertiliser. I "piss" into a 10L watering can with a big funnel in it's head. When I have enough saved up, I go and pour it over the garden where it's needed most. It's an amazing fertiliser...especially for the cost...which is nothing.

[@BalticHomesteaders]

@@IvanHawkes do you dilute at all? Any observations?

[@IvanHawkes]

@@BalticHomesteaders You should dilute it any where from 5:1 down to 20:1. Don't apply directly to the roots of plants or seedlings since it may "burn" them. I generally just save up a 10L watering can of it, apply a light shower over the area, then hose that area down as a way to dilute it. That said, I live in Australia, so the plants are always in need of a good soaking anyway. Fresh urine has a really high nitrogen content, but it drops over time down to a 1:1:1 ratio. Use it fresh if you want the max nitrogen, or store it for a while if you are after a balanced feed.

[@REDGardens]

Closing the loop is definitely a benefit, and something id like to explore a lot more. I tend to stay away from that aim mainly because I have such a large growing space, with at lot of other people eating the vegetables we grow (many would not be keen on using fertilised vegetables - but I am working on that.) A the moment there is plenty of fertility around, that would be much more acceptable for many people, so I focus on that. But we do need to explore how to close those loops of fertility.

[@homestead.design]

I have come to almost view N as being overrated. I do cover cropping/green manure lazily. For a subsistence level of N I find I personally make more than I need personally in the form of Urine! Obviously for a massive plot its not enough. But I have settled on 1 days worth of 'yellow gold' is about 1 square meter for a full growing season.

[@a2e5]

There’s indeed an astonishing amount of N in urine. A healthy human pees out 12-20 g of urea per day, which is about 6-10 g of the element. Divide that amount with the normal daily urine output ranging from 800-2000 mL, that’s actually quite concentrated. [Please DO NOT learn about what a "nitre pit" is.]

[@ximono]

While researching composting toilets I learned that 1 year of urine from 1 person requires 40 m2 of land to disperse the urine across in order to stay within legal limits of N (Sweden, EU). That's for the Compostera toilet, which separates liquid from solid "waste" (what a misnomer!). When you also consider the potential of solid humanure, we could be pretty much self-sufficient in terms of fertilizers. It's just a question of making it safe to use in food production. (1 year's production of solid humanure requires 10 m2 per person.)

[@REDGardens]

For a smaller plot, and when you are not feeding other people who might be uncomfortable with this form of fertility 😉, urine can be a geed source of nitrogen. I suspect your approximation of one day per m2 is fairly close to what I have been working with.

[@REDGardens]

@@a2e5 Thanks for the figures. I had been going with about 10g per day of nitrogen.

[@REDGardens]

@@ximono I also think it is possible to be self-sufficient with urine and humanure, depending on the area of production, or more importantly the portion of your own food that you are trying to grow. If we still import meat and grains, then there will likely be enough Nitrogen inputs to grow your veg (assuming that you are doing it all carefully). But the greater proportion of your diet that comes from your vegetable patch, the more likely losses in the system (through rain and denitrification) will build up to limit the productivity of the garden.

[@n0sr3t3p]

might want to look out for pfas in those biosolids

[@REDGardens]

definitely something to consider.

[@trollforge]

I thought you might like to know... Tim over at WAY OUT WEST channel just put up a video "Saving Your Own Vegetable Seeds - A Visit To Brown Envelope Seeds" about a seed producer in Cork...

[@REDGardens]

Thanks, I hadn’t seen that video. I occasionally get seeds from Brown Envelope Seeds, but they sell small quantities of seeds, which ends up being expensive for the amount I grow.

[@nonacesool]

You didn't talk about the azotobacter that can fix a very good amount of nitrogen if they have carbon ton eat. Also rain brings a fair amount of N over the year.

[@REDGardens]

I don't really know much about those things, and in this video I was concentrating on things that I knew I could rely on. I'd love to explore a lot of other options, as you suggest.

[@zazugee]

i collect my own urine, but i rarely add anything to the soil behinds hay and locally made compost (not much) urine mostly used for corn, but at one point i put it in the water tank for it to get dilluted in drip irigation, but it caused cloggings and i also used the algae growing in the water tank as fertilizer

[@REDGardens]

Sounds good. What size space do you have?

[@zazugee]

@@REDGardens only 500m2 but we had 6 palm trees and a dozen of fruit trees and 20m2 of garden beds and still have a 60m2 surface left empty (mostly used to dry pruned palm and fruit branches before charing them in a fire pit )

[@dougbutabi5085]

Use spent beer grain from local breweries, almost all of them just toss it. Dry it out it’s even better for your garden than rolled oats

[@REDGardens]

I have used them in the past, when I was doing som home brew. I think all of the spent grain goes to animal feed around here but useful to look into.

[@liam314]

A great way to improve the general nitrogen levels of a field is to plant an Elaeagnus umbellata (aka Autumn Olive) hedge or windbreak. It can apparently fix up to 240kg of N/ha/year and produces masses of small edible berries in the autumn, and can be coppiced or pollarded on a 3-5yr rotation for firewood. It propagates easily from hardwood cuttings.

[@REDGardens]

Interesting, though I am not sure I would want to start planting that potentially invasive species in the area.

[@liam314]

@@REDGardens It is not an invasive species in Ireland, probably because the seeds require both warm and cold stratification to germinate, neither of which it is likely to get in the Irish climate.

[@Some1special]

So... Basically from what I'm hearing is that what your doing isn't exactly sustainable. Here's some tips I can think of. 1. Hit up some coffee houses for their left over grounds. 2. Chickens, get some. 3. Let the chickens into the compost bin. 4. I noticed a bunch of large chunks in your compost pile. I recommend a 3 stage compost pile. A. Sorting pile B. A sorted pile for big chunks. C. The ready to rock and roll pile where you've run the chunks through a grinder and it's ready to go into the beds. 5. Worms get some. Throw them into your compost and cover them up really well. Worms will not only break everything down but provide good protein for the chickens. Keep a a small bin for worm breeding. 6. Use a soak barrel or "compost tea" beans and noodles are great to cook and feed to chickens dump the remaining liquid into the soak barrel once you get a few gallons in there add a cup of sugar and whatever plant matter / liquid (no fats or oils) about a week before you plan to dump it throw in about 6 packets of yeast or your mushroom colony of choice. Stir it up and let it do it's thing for a week and dump in where you need it. You should notice in a few weeks a nice fungal root system. this root system acts as a resource distribution system so don't let it dry out for long periods. Now all you need is to keep the plants and ground watered and moist. Seems like a lot of work but if done right your work load will consist of turning on the water for 15 - 30 minutes a day while you sit back and enjoy a coffee.

[@REDGardens]

I manage about 12 different growing spaces, and in each one I use a different method for managing the fertility, so a lot of variety there. Some are more sustainable than others, depending on how you define sustainable. I had chickens a few years ago, mainly for one of the spaces, doing similar to what you mention, but then the fox had different ideas. Might get some more chickens this year.

[@Some1special]

@@REDGardens as far as chickens go you can cage them up if you have fox problems the entire "free range" thing is a lie so don't feel like you have to let them roam. Make sure when you build the coop and run that you bury about 4 - 6 inches of the chicken wire into the ground. This will keep the foxes from digging into the coop when your sleeping and stuff. We have hawks and sizable snakes over here that will kill everything in a pen just for fun so I know the struggle. The rule of thumb we use is that if the snake is small enough to fit through chicken wire the chickens can probably eat it. Occasionally I've used a garden hoe to get the bigger ones. Anyways I hope your ventures pan out and everything works out well. The sustainability I mention is keeping things relatively labor free. Maybe one day I'll do a video on it or something and link it over for some insight.

[@rosea830]

Have you thought about keeping rabbits? You could keep them in hutches and collect the manure in trays and feed veggies that might not be market quality to off-set the price of feed. People are crazy, lately.

[@REDGardens]

Rabbits would be interesting to keep for meat and for manure, providing I could get a convenient feed.

[@bakidilek]

in a short growing season like yours I would definitely use liquid fertilizer

[@REDGardens]

It does make sense in a shorter season.

[@Well_I_am_just_saying]

You should pick up some free coffee grounds from your local Starbucks Coffee shop to use as a free source of nitrogen. I picked up close to 500 pounds of coffee grounds last fall to add to my compost bins. I picked up 50 to 100 pounds 2 or 3 times per week. I still have approximately 100 pounds of coffee grounds that I have not used yet. I am thinking about simply putting the coffee grounds directly on my soil this Spring. I know that it is better to compost them in with other materials ahead of time, but sprinkling a little bit on top of the soil probably won't hurt and will hopefully help the soil.

[@jeremybyington]

I think you kinda concluded with this as well around the 13:30 mark, but using rolled oats seems a little irresponsible since it is already a compatible human/animal food source. The farmer who grew those was dealing with the same issues and you just took their output and used it as your input because it is economical (their industry is probably subsidized by the government). I mean, the only thing that would make sense is if that farmer bought your output and used it in their input.

[@REDGardens]

All fair points, and I think it is important to understand this at a broader level. Another way of looking at it is ok for small scale growers to use whatever is easy, cheap and available. I worry that we place too many barriers for people to start to grow food, and taking an easy way is acceptable if but gets them growing.

[@tinnerste2507]

I like to grow n fixing legume family root crops especially. That cuts down on fertilizer needs a good bit

[@REDGardens]

Do you green it as a green manure for a full year?

[@tinnerste2507]

I leave them to grow for three to five years, as long as the main crop can grow before it needs to be divided, so as an example, I harvest the earth pea crop in my rhubarb bed once every five years when I lift and divide the rhubarb. The plants keep growing untill the first hard frost burns them. I just leave the tops on the bed and they get buried by compost in early June.

[@AtheistEve]

Do you get trouble from vermin like rats, voles, pigeons if you use feed on the garden? I’m toying with your idea to sprinkle/dig in feed but there’s that concern it might attract rats.

[@REDGardens]

Yes rats can definitely be an issue with this approach. Digging it in would help a bit.

[@AtheistEve]

@@REDGardens I might consider it next year if I can’t get my soil to improve this year, and plants and production suffer. Cheers.

[@DigwellGreenfingers]

I thought that plants struggled to take in macronutrients (NPK) via their leaves and if any is absorbed it is only beneficial for a very short time as it does not travel to the rest of the plant like the ones absorbed via the roots. IE a quick fix that doesn't last. What do you think?

[@REDGardens]

I don't know. An interesting possibility, that I would like to know more about.

[@ThatGuyCalledJames]

Have you considered using aquaponics to directly capture your own nitrogen?

[@adamshaffer8176]

Okay, Bruce, I read a Steven Solomon book after watching some of your videos on the extensive garden, and I'm having trouble finding organic seed meal locally. It seems rather expensive online, as well. What I am finding, though, is fairly cheap organic chicken feed--with some of the same seed meals as ingredients. Think it would be a good substitute?

[@REDGardens]

It is a tough one to find online, the chicken feed may be an appropriate substitute. I have the attitude of trying and using whatever is easy and available.

[@adamshaffer8176]

@@REDGardens thanks!

[@robertkarlsson9353]

That contaminant is pyralid. It is possible to get rid of in the manure from the farms if the farmers make sure not to feed the animals with a fodder that is sprayed with klo pyralid. Grass plants can grow in that contaminated soil. But nothing else..

[@lynnmacro3044]

Very informative and thought provoking as usual, thank you. I have recently been subject to the ap treated horse manure from a source I and some allotment neighbours have used for years. It seemed well rotted, similar to the pile shown in your video. To rectify, apart from scraping as much as possible from the beds, do you think planting something like red clover could in any way improve the soil quicker than waiting a couple of years and not using the valuable space? This is off topic but hoping to find an answer from an, in my opinion, trustworthy source. I am organic gardening so planting a foodstuff which is not affected by ap is not an option, I really don’t fancy eating root vegetables which have absorbed these chemicals.

[@TheEmbrio]

Growing corn (not affected) and discarding the material is a solution i read about.

[@REDGardens]

Sorry, I don't I don't really have any experience with it (thankfully).

[@hossdude65]

Good nitrogen in cut grass spread on top of soil

[@REDGardens]

👍

[@petersilie4927]

Thanks for the great content. Maybe I missed in the video: Which kind of "plant based pellets" has 12% of nitrogen?

[@hakdov6496]

i'd guess alfalfa pellets

[@petersilie4927]

from my research I found the proteine (!) content is about 15% (which would translate to 2,4% N). Hardly any organic fertilizer is in the range of 10+ %N. I'm very curious to find out which plant based one has 12% N

[@REDGardens]

@@petersilie4927 This is the stuff www.fruithillfarm.com/organic-soil-plant-fertilisers/granular-fertilizers/organic-plant-based-nitrogen-fertilizer-12-1-3.html Apparently it is fermented sugar cane residues.

[@petersilie4927]

@@REDGardens Thanks for the answer. At the bottom of the description it states "Phytoperls N" thats very interesting because were very happy to have found this product last year. But our organic growing consultat recently informed us that this product is no longer legal for organic growing because it was found out it contains synthetic nitrogen. I'm still looking to confirm this information but our dealer already took it out of his program.

[@slaplapdog]

Its not for everyone buy you certainly should consider getting your own chickens. Your are already buying their poop. You are already buying feed(oats) and bedding (hay). Everything the compost pile eats, they can eat. With your help, they will create a nutrient dense compost very quickly. You don't even need to eat the eggs, if you don't want to, it's their poop that's the best part!

[@calebweldon8102]

If you don’t need eggs you can get Guinea fowl or make chickens which could be cheaper

[@REDGardens]

I did have chickens for awhile, workmen on the compost in the other garden, then a fox had other ideas, and I haven't replaced them. I liked the eggs, but didn't like the extra responsibility and tasks, though I will probably get some more.

[@Pixieworksstudio]

Another very thought-provoking video Bruce. There were a few things I thought of... years ago we used to be able to buy grass pellets to feed the horses, a little at a time as they were rich, but they would be packed full of nitrogen. That bought me to pony nuts, a compact pellet, horse feed, containing all sorts - I will look up the contents. Are there such things as seaweed pellets? And I wonder then if we could soak our own seaweed in large containers as we do comfrey etc - cool for smaller growers, but not as easy for others. I do keep hens, but I'm also thinking of keeping quail - could we soak poultry manure to give us a concentrated feed? There would be the bedding to think about I suppose because I use shredded paper and straw which would be carbon, but there is still bedding in farm manure. I wonder how much nitrogen we would get by soaking grass clippings, or clover? and if it would outweigh the amount got from cutting it and spreading or composting - if it was topped up time and again with more water. It would be an entrepreneurial business to maybe collect 'green' food waste to make into nitrogen pellets for gardeners :-) . I'm looking forward to your next video already.

[@REDGardens]

GThewre are so many options, and a lot of it depends on what is available, preferably locally, what kind of processing does it take, what are the downsides (there are always downsides), and do we want to avoid some of the ingredients and industries for ethical , health or moral reasons. A lot of the animal feed around here it seems to be based on soya imported in from Brazil, so I definitely want to avoid that. I do use seaweed dust, but only a small amount, and I think the amount of sodium in it would prevent it from being used to supply any significant amounts of nitrogen, even if we could assume that the harvesting was ecologically fine. The whole idea of soaking things to extract the fertility, such as weed tea is a really interesting possibility.

[@Pixieworksstudio]

@@REDGardens oh yes! Brazil? that's pretty shocking really, it has been a while since I was in the loop so to speak. And seaweed is ok of course as you say, but I always think of what else may be in it, salt and unknown additives. I am unsure how they make it organic - something for me to explore. As we said before, I have to stop being so analytical somewhere down the line, but where? I'm not so sure as yet. I am just so suspicious of things these days. I'm very interested in the imports now that fuel has risen, it could be good for some things, such as less waste, more people growing and trading on a free market economy, and bad for others. Weed tea is an amazing soil amendment - I think I saw it on Hugh Richards' video and I wonder how long it will be until we can buy it more commercially. Fascinating times, Bruce, philosophically speaking.

[@ricedarren]

Have you considered seaweed?

[@REDGardens]

Too expensive, I think, and it would possibly add too much sodium in the process.

[@ChessKombat]

I am just thinking out load. What about using spent brewey grains as an option? Would you have a local source for those? I imagine that would be cheaper than anything listed for N fertility some may give them away.

[@REDGardens]

That is an option for those with access to a friendly brewery.

[@chrissanders8230]

Fabaceae is so fabaceous

[@REDGardens]

👍

[@homestead.design]

I feel so lazy whenever I watch your videos :)

[@REDGardens]

😀

[@SlackerU]

With you compost having a PH of 7 to 8.5 I think you need to do an analysis of how many protons you're purchasing per $ spent. If Calcium uptake maxes out at 6 PH then you need more protons(acids). [I'm assuming your garden has a PH above 7 & suggest trying to get closer to 6, though I'm a novice/beginner]

[@REDGardens]

Getting compost with a specific pH would be pretty impossible with the limited choice around here.

[@LittlePetieWheat]

Have you looked into what else you are adding to your soil, that comes with the amendments. I worry about the build up of other contaminants (e.g. arsenic).

[@REDGardens]

I have not looked at that directly, but it is something I try to be aware of with all of the stuff I import. But most of it is also spread over a very large area, so anything nasty would be diluted. It is another reason to favour diversity of imputs.

[@Zufriedenheit]

Great Video. Thank You. I think nitrogen supply is actually not a problem in the big picture. There is plenty of it in the air and we have a method of making it available to plants (Haber-Bosch). In the long term this could even be done using renewable energy and synthetic methane gas. What could become a problem though is phosphate. The only way to gather it is literally mining it from the earth on places where there is a high concentration of it. And then we dilute it in the ocean with our human excrements. When the mines are starting to run out of it we will have to use our human waste anyway to gather the phosphates from it.

[@REDGardens]

Yes, phosphate is the real issue with fertility in the future.

[@gamernick1533]

Won't seed, especially rolled oats massively attract pests/wildlife? I've used hay before and it made the ground it was in rank with damp/mould, it really smelled unpleasant and seemed to encourage rot. It might have been unusually wet, I can't remember, but the ground where I hadn't used it was fine.

[@REDGardens]

Yes, it could attract some pests. I already deal with rat population, but need to dig it in.

[@TobyRobb]

Have you considered adding an animal system? I know that ducks, chickens or rabbits can definitely create some nitrogen for you from scraps. As well as providing some farm income possibly?

[@REDGardens]

Animals can be great, though they don't 'create' the nitrogen. What they leave behind in their manure is leftover nitrogen/protein from what you feed them. I have hens in the past, which can be great processors of material that I import, and I got the benefit of the the eggs, but I can also just put the scraps through the compost to get even more fertility into my gardens. Anything that ended up in the eggs we removed and ate, and that fertility ended up flushing down the toilet.

[@TobyRobb]

@@REDGardens yes, very true. I've just found the chickens to be faster at processing material than compost. And produce a more concentrated product. Sometimes if you use things like ducks or other foraging animals, they also can act as weed control and biological tractors. And of course as you say they produce eggs, feathers and meat. But they definitely have their own problems.. although diversity of saleable products on farm can have its benefits too. I enjoy the fact that you completely assess every part of the process from start to finish. I am horticulturist scientist and really appreciate your scientific approaches..

[@TobyRobb]

@@REDGardens and you're right, any removal of product is going to result in removal of fertility. You're going to have to ask your customers for poop back if you want to close the system 😏. There is one other source of nitrogen and that is rainwater, especially during storms. Documented in the nitrogen cycle , this only seems to account for a few pounds per acre at most..

[@mikeharrington5593]

Maybe source a supply of kelp?

[@REDGardens]

I would worry about too much sodium if I brought in that much kelp.

[@alisonburgess345]

I put cardboard then compost in my greenhouse and it was a real failure. I ended up tediously pulling it all out from around the tomato plants. It just put up a complete water barrier and gave me some horrible fungus growth in the anaerobic conditions it created...

[@REDGardens]

Ugh, sounds like a hassle. How long before planting the tomatoes did the cardboard and compost go down?

[@alisonburgess345]

@@REDGardens About 2 days. It was a brand new greenhouse and I was eager to get going. I think cardboard works well as a path underlay (under wood chips for instance), but I wouldn't use it again around plants...

[@alisonburgess345]

@@REDGardens I did wet everything down thoroughly too... the soil under, the cardboard, the compost...but it didn't work for me.

[@sorenhandel6933]

Instead of the rolled oats, could one use the spent grains from breweries? It's high in protein

[@REDGardens]

Yes, that would be an option.

[@Superstephen1977]

you red can do this in real time 28 days take 2 big pots of soil , 1 with massive amounts of your nitrogen fertilizer (chicken pellets) and plant a bunch of radish.. then in another pot use depleted soil from say a potato patch..in 30 days you will know whats going on , and then just plant a few radish seeds in random places after and they will tell you whats going on after a while you will just see it i 2 weeks ..i am guessing

[@REDGardens]

Interesting option.

[@zazusy1]

I have heard of some trials with Azolla in the Netherlands. It is an aquatic fern which is able to bind nitrogen from the air and phosphor from water. And it grows really fast. In the trials in the Netherlands it would be added to animal food to reduce the amount of traditional animal food. Link to the video (in Dutch): kzbin.info/www/bejne/fny8gKdrbbSLkMU

[@REDGardens]

Interesting stuff.

[@shamansalah1399]

Do you have an experiences in biogas fertilizer plant? Thanks for your time

[@REDGardens]

I don't, but it is something I would like to explore.

[@jamescatlover123]

Cow, horse and rabbit urine is also high in nitrogen. Safe too

[@REDGardens]

I would need to be able to collect that ...

[@spanish_psychonaut]

Doesn't urine have a shit-load of nitrogen? We could pee all over the garden haha

[@bigkirbyhj666]

Unfortunately the uric acids is the major killer.

[@spanish_psychonaut]

@@bigkirbyhj666 Oh, I didn't know that. That's a bummer.

[@homestead.design]

We posted at the same time!!! I find I make as much as I need, for a subsistence level of food production.

[@homestead.design]

The average N-P-K ratio of urine is 11-1-2.5 According to what I have found.

[@spanish_psychonaut]

@@homestead.design So it is possible to use it? Aren't the uric acids a problem, as the comment above says? I wouldn't mind using my own production.

[@kuibeiguahua]

Doesn't nitrogen dissipate after a while? How much is kept for next year I wonder

[@REDGardens]

That is a good question. It is such a chemically and biologically active element, it definitely doesn't just sit there in the soil waiting to be picked up by the plants the next year. No doubt some is lost to the air, and groundwater, but I would not know how much.

[@smob0]

This is just my opinion, but I don't know if I would be comfortable with human waste being used on food plants. I am concerned with diseases being able to spread easier mostly. But I feel like putting a "buffer" crop like a green manure or animal feed, which could then work its way back into the soil, would be a way to use it.

[@calebweldon8102]

If your already buying oats, and doing compost get birds (chickens guineas,) they can eat the compost bugs and oats and give you good manure

[@REDGardens]

That is an option. I had hens before, as part of a compost system, and it turned out I wasn't putting in enough effort to prevent the fox from getting in.

[@donf4227]

I am curious if any of these sources could be run through a worm composting system and maintain a substantial amount (percentage) of nitrogen. I have a 7 ft x 4 ft worm bin that I use for fruit + veggie scraps. It may take a while for these sources (such as rolled oats or rape seed meal) to break down in a worm bin for the worms to digest, but I've heard that the bacteria that accompany the worms help to break it down as well. Is it worth running a higher nitrogen/protein source through a typical worm bin? (I ask because it is mentioned in the video that it's often ideal to run them through larger animals.)

[@REDGardens]

The worms would be a useful way of breaking down the material, and I think they conserve most of the nitrogen. But it isn't much different than a standard compost, or sheet/trench composting, in that it really depends on the material supply. The nitrogen is simply transformed, not created by the worms./compost. There are a lot of options, including the larger animals you suggest, and each has different issues and benefits.

[@donf4227]

@@REDGardens Thank you.

[@Superstephen1977]

sorry for the confusing message vv vvvv down there . i recently got rabbits due to the high nitrogen content...do you have any rabbit farms near you , and we have a plant here in canada called comfrey ! ive been trying to find plants to bring home ..its quite possible you need to have a (garden block) of heavy nitrogen ritch plants that you grow just for the amounts of nitrogen you need . i have problems with to much nitrogen, i learned this via radish.. here is my novice way to tell about nitrogen ... if you plant radish intermittent in your gardens they act like a guage .. to much nitrogen you get big tops and no radishs you basically get a root . you can almost see the radish is trying to jump out of the soil , and because radish grows so fast and in cool temps spring and fall are good indicators ...soil thats depleted of nitrogen gives you small tops and big fruit... mabey im crazy but ive actually witnessed this on a small scale

[@REDGardens]

No rabbit farms near here unfortunately. Interesting about the radishes.

[@alisonburgess345]

I just cut the tops off the legumes when they are finished, leaving the roots in the ground (in fact I do that with all spent veggie plants). isn't human urine loaded with N? Just pee into a bucket of water and use it to water the garden...

[@REDGardens]

I have heard quite different reports about how much nitrogen would be left in the roots of pea plants after harvesting the peas. Urine works, but I don't use it generally in these gardens as they are open to the public and I sell the vegetables that we grow. I am not sure many people in my community are ready to accept fertility like that in their food. But I am working on that.

[@alisonburgess345]

@@REDGardens Yep - there's a massive yuck factor alright... which is a pity cos it's potentially excellent fertiliser..