Rediscovering the Biblical Purpose of Church Gatherings (Hint: It's Not Worship) - Dr. Tom Wadsworth

[@doriesse824]

What great questions and answers!

[@PatrickMungathia]

One of the reasons why the current churches have gone wrong is mixing the activities of the old testament with those of the new testament hence they come up with a blend of activities.

[@francineclave2207]

Tom, God is using you in HIS TIME! What a blessing covid was to bring such clarity to us now and you are part of this. It is like HE is bringing us together in A FRESH and RIGHT way….. Thank you, thank you, thank you!

[@scottrichards9631]

The religious system has deceptively redefined almost every important biblical word in the bible. Thank you for your work.

[@chrissy.aussie]

100% agree. Sadly most church meetings seem a waste of time. I'm hearing: ongoing reformation, discipleship & accountability - one with another. And Tom what a blessing that you speak of NOT tearing down people and systems but rather being the bearers of something better, based on unfolding (revealed, discovered, sought for) scriptural truths. OK got it, not condemning, but to edify! I'll go on to Tom's # 6.

[@kristenspencer9751]

The Apostle Paul was emphatic. He didn't want people going back to the old system with its rules and regulations. It was hard indeed for the Jews who believed that Jesus was the Messiah to break away from that thinking. Then, there were gentiles who had embraced Judaism that were being told they had to keep the law and the other rituals. And then there were pagan converts among the Greeks and Romans (and other people groups). Church buildings keep getting bigger and bigger and become more elaborate. It's been said that the devil can't un-do the work of Christ in a believer, but he CAN prevent believers from growing and maturing, and that right there has weakened the church primarily in the West and U.S. in my humble view.

[@r4e]

Interesting. Are you suggesting that the apostles, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, deliberately distanced themselves from temple practices-what we often refer to as "worship"-to reshape the disciples' mindset for the New Testament era? If so, that is an astute observation that I had not considered.

[@tabletalk33]

@@r4e I think something like that did happen, and not only via the Holy Spirit, but directly from the presence and spiritual power and instruction of Jesus, too. As you well know, the Pentateuch is full of extreme and elaborately detailed rules and regulations for life. In my recent readings of scripture, I've often marveled at the lengths God went to in order to guide his people, and I've asked myself again and again, why, why so much exacting detail in temple worship and daily life? Obviously, by the time of Jesus, the spiritual value of temple worship was waning, and change was on the way. I've also marveled at Jesus' radically different teachings which seemed to undo (or reorient or redirect?) a great many of these practices, which, of course, confounded the orthodox Jewish authorities.

[@wendywalker35]

I clicked the thumbs up button and it still remained at zero. Just FYI. I don’t go to a church because it troubles my soul. I’m with Tom 100%.

[@r4e]

I see a like for the video, maybe that one is yours. Thank you. I am persuaded that Tom's research and conclusions are exactly correct. In fact, I had reached some of the same conclusions years ago and I was gratified that his extensive research validated my own conclusions. Let's pray his research is widely disseminated.

[@wendywalker35]

I am with you- I have felt for years the church building scenario doesn’t fit. For one thing it is a burden to people financially to have to pay a mortgage for a building that is rarely used.

[@rufuspeter]

Yes ... and finally fighting over the property ... filing court cases against each other ... it's all happening in India .... for the last 15 years the Church gathers in our home ...

[@kristenspencer9751]

@@wendywalker35 An elder at my former church strongly agrees with you, here. He always felt that the building took too much energy and funds. Too much time over city code requirements, landscaping, roof repair, traffic control (for mega churches) etc. Instead, a house church would save up tithes and offerings to help members in time of need. Maybe someone lost a job and needs help temporarily to pay electric bill, maybe another member needs a minor car repair. Maybe someone else needs a minor home repair. And of course we would all be able to jump in and help where we are gifted. And such is the WITNESS to the lost! In the book of Acts, the unbelievers said of the Christians..."Look at how they love each other!" It wasn't how they helped the lost...it was how they helped each other! And sacrificed for each other.

[@wazzzup2536]

Some people need the prayers/friendsjip of Christians - it brings them strength and courage. But not churches are alike nor do all churches teach Biblical truth. Certainly, there are legitimate complaints about some church services. I have left churches when they became nightclubs.By that I mean; when I was in my early twenty’s I was born again and the first thing I said was Hallelujah, I don’t have to go to night clubs anymore!!! I always hated them - they are places of desperation and sin ;where men are trying to pick up women. So, fast track , to today, I walk into a non-denominational church that has come into town and what do I see : there are strobe lights, there is rock music with people up shaking their booty, there are smoke pots, Dim lights, silly, non-reverential songs. my family and myself wanted no part of this confused church. It was like going back to my pre-born again Friday nights, which I hated back then. WHY, would anyone think this is pleasing to God? This is sooo many of today’s churches, saying they are CHRISTIAN but in reality, are only quasi-Christian in my opinion.

[@r4e]

It's challenging to show people that Jesus's way is better when what we offer them is no different from what they can find in the world. What happens in the assembly should appeal to the inner man, not our fleshly senses.

[@tabletalk33]

Yep. In a word, it's "worshiptainment" that you are referring to, and it's a sorry irreverent mess unworthy of real Christians. Matthew Everhard has published a book with that title.

[@JesusJoyJourney]

We are an actual New Creation in Christ that needs to grow😊

[@acts4_12]

The Church is not about religious activities, but a relationship with God and His creation! To love God and love others is the sole purpose for why He created us in His image and likeness!

[@tabletalk33]

Yes, well said! I just want to add that other human beings are also part of that creation, and we play an important role in their edification, and they in ours. This notion is clearly reflected in the scriptures.

[@stevekerp1]

Actually (6:02) the purpose is to give people "head knowledge" so they can overcome objections when out trying to persuade people to become Christians ... or at least church members. Much of my church experience was academic pursuit, and I knew a lot about the Bible. I could play Bible trivia games and prevail. But there was little character development.

[@kristenspencer9751]

It only starts with head knowledge and then is supposed to trickle down into heart knowledge. Digging deeper and asking questions and discovering possible answers. There is a bunch of Bible stuff that is not actually on target that gets passed down from teacher to student. But by asking ourselves "Is that REALLY what happened?" Do I believe it just b/c my teacher in seminary said it? OR is the Bible saying something more profound? Having exchanges with other believers and going back over the scriptures in private study is when things can get really electrifying! (and fun!)

[@richardlee7617]

Dallas Willard observes that we have developed a form of Christianity that separates being a Christian from being a disciple. Your presentation emphasizes the importance of making disciples, though you never use the term. I shared a bit of the presentation with my wife. Her concern was that if we lose a lot of the “form“ of current church services and move towards lots of small group discussions then we risk the danger of cultic leaders rising, or unorthodox teachings taking root. I thought maybe that’s why Paul had to write all those letters back to churches that were getting off track . How do you maintain orthodoxy?

[@r4e]

I wasn’t familiar with Dallas Willard's observation, but he expressed it very well. In our video, we discussed spiritual edification at length. Personally, I see discipleship and spiritual edification as nearly synonymous (I suspect youtube.com/@tomwadsworth would agree). While we may not have explicitly mentioned discipleship in the video, the concepts of edification and discipleship overlap so much that speaking of one inherently suggests the other (or so it seems to me). As for orthodoxy, truth be told, the historical church model has never been effective at preserving doctrinal purity. Orthodoxy isn't maintained through organizational or hierarchical structures. Instead, it comes through cultivating biblical literacy, transparent leadership, and a culture of discipleship where sound doctrine is passed relationally. The early church demonstrates that intimate gatherings can be deeply orthodox when there's mutual accountability, scriptural understanding, and a commitment to spiritual growth. Paul's letters show that theological drift happens in all church models; the antidote is creating communities where truth is lovingly examined and deeply internalized. In short, heresy can arise from any church model.

[@kristenspencer9751]

I agree with the explanation given by @r4e. There are many "celebrity" pastors with mega churches who are way off course. They do not appreciate correction either! Small groups shouldn't have a single "leader" as it were...but have elders (plural) and a few others who are mature believers and solid teachers of the Word. All should be humble and open to correction. I've been a part of a few such groups over the years that were absolutely wonderful! They just didn't endure and eventually would dissolve for one reason or another...sometimes it was people moving, interference with work or an illness or family matter. It goes strong for awhile, and then drops off. But very meaningful, intimate gatherings that everyone very much looked forward to. By comparison, how many people do you suppose actually look forward to going to church?

[@tabletalk33]

See Expositor's Bible Commentary (@ eSword): 1 Corinthians 14:1-40-SPIRITUAL GIFTS AND PUBLIC WORSHIP: "No countenance can be found in this chapter to the idea that worship should exclude preaching and become the sole purpose of the assembling together of Christian people. Some temperaments incline towards worship, but resent being preached to or instructed. The reverential and serious feelings which are quickened into life by devotional forms of prayer may be scattered by the buffoonery or ineptitudes of the preacher. Exasperation, unbelief, contempt, in the mind of the hearer may be the only results achieved by some sermons. It may occasionally occur to us that the Christian world would be very much the better of some years of silence, and that results which have not been reached by floods of preaching might be attained if these floods were allowed to ebb and a period of quiet and repose succeed. Unquestionably there is a danger at present of leading men to suppose that religion is a thing which must be ceaselessly talked about, and which perhaps chiefly consists of talk, so that if one only hears enough, and has the right opinions, he may accept himself as a religious person. But it is one thing to say that there is at present too much preaching or too careless and unequal a distribution of preaching, and quite another thing to say there should be none."

[@ClaudiaWells-b6v]

So many believers are coming to these conclusions …. Thinking we are few….

[@tabletalk33]

I just consulted my Strong's Concordance and I think I counted 8 different Greek words translated "worship" in the AV. Wow! Really?? I'll have to do my own deep dive on these and see if this usage of "worship" is justified for all these translations.

[@r4e]

Outstanding! This is the Berean attitude at work (Acts 17:11). I encourage you NOT to take my, or Dr. Wadsworth's, word for this. Instead, confirm for yourself that what was said is true. This is the way.

[@Zatoichi82]

Hey, brother Lawrence. Thank you for your fantastic interview with Tom. A have a question: did you find his dissertation online for free or did you have to pay for it? If it is free, where can I find it?

[@r4e]

I wasn't able to find it online. I contacted Tom through his website asking for a copy and he sent it to me. If you contact him I bet he'll send you a copy. www.tomwadsworth.com/contact

[@roberttablit3142]

Do you have a position on replacement theology

[@fineoutrick9789]

One has to wonder how the early church did it without smoke machines and powerful PA systems.

[@r4e]

😊

[@CornieOdendaal]

Our definition of worship is wrong

[@tabletalk33]

The Expositor's Bible Commentary, 1 Corinthians 14:1-40; SPIRITUAL GIFTS AND PUBLIC WORSHIP (extracted from e-Sword).

[@deborahgonzalezknight168]

Hillsong is not worship its obscene.

[@peterxuereb9884]

Jesus gave to the Apostles the Authority to preach & teach the truth. Does Authority, therefore, matter to be able to preach & teach the truth, and to ensure that it continues that the preaching and teaching is done correctly should not that Authority be passed on by those who had/have the Authority to preach and teach the truth or can anyone preach & teach, whatever they like without that Authority??? Would anyone allow someone to teach their children if that person has no authority to teach children??? Why is this so difficult to understand.

[@tabletalk33]

See: Expositor's Bible Commentary: 1 Corinthians 14:1-40; SPIRITUAL GIFTS AND PUBLIC WORSHIP (source: e-Sword): We lose much of what would interest and much that would edify by enjoining silence upon the membership of the Church. And yet, as Paul observes, there was much to be desired in those Corinthian services. Had there been some authorised official presiding over them, the abuses of which this letter speaks could not have arisen. To appeal to this chapter or to any part of this letter in proof that there should be no distinction between clergy and laity would be very bad policy. It is indeed obvious that at this time there were neither elders nor deacons, bishops nor rulers of any kind, in the Church of Corinth; but then it is quite as obvious that there was great need of them, and that the want of them had given rise to some scandalous abuses and to much disorder. The ideal condition would be one in which authority should be lodged in certain elected office bearers, while the faculty and gift of each member in some way contributed to the good of the whole Church. In most Churches of our own day, efforts are made to utilise the Christian energies of their membership in those various charitable works which are so necessary and so abundant. But probably we should all be the better of a much freer ventilation of opinion within the Church and of listening to men who have not been educated in any particular school of theology and hold their minds closely to the realities of experience. "While Paul abstains from appointing office bearers to preside at their meetings, he is careful to lay down two principles which should regulate their procedure. First, "let everything be done decently and in order." This advice was greatly needed in a Church in which the public services were sometimes turned into tumultuous exhibitions of rival gifts, each man trying to make himself heard above the din of voices, one speaking with tongues, another singing a hymn, a third loudly addressing the congregation, so that any stranger who might be attracted by the noise and step into the house could think this Christian meeting nothing else than Bedlam broke loose. Above all things, then, says Paul, conduct your meetings in a seemly fashion. Observe the rules of common decency and order. I do not prescribe any particular forms you must observe nor any special order you must follow in your services. I do not pronounce what portion of time should be devoted to prayer nor what to praise or exhortation: nor do I require that you should in all cases begin your service in the same stereotyped manner and carry it through in the same routine. Your services must vary both in form and in substance from week to week, according to the equipment of the individual members of your Church; sometimes there may be many who wish to exhort, sometimes there may be none. But in all this freedom and variety, spontaneity must not run into obtrusiveness, and variety must be saved from disorder.

[@scottrichards9631]

Salvation is not a one time prayer. It is Salvationship Baptism is not a ritual, it is a covenant. Holy Spirit is a revelationship, He reveals Jesus (truth) to us. We are not going to the Heaven our Father resides in. We will meet Jesus in the air and come back to earth. It's all about being in salvationship with Jesus led by Holy Spirit everyday. We should never be born again out of fear. We should be born again out of love and appreciation for Jesus.