Referee Luke Pearce On Abuse & Mack Hansen Ban

Al and Hask are joined by one of the world’s premier referees, Luke Pearce, who calls out the vitriolic levels of abuse referees face in the modern game.
In light of Mack Hansen's ban, the lads discuss the delicate balancing act between protecting referees and holding them accountable.
📺 Watch the full episode here - • Referee Luke Pearce Ge...
❤️ Subscribe to our main channel - / @goodbadrugby
Follow GBR:
Instagram: www.instagram....
TikTok: www.tiktok.com...
Facebook: / goodbadandrugby
Twitter: x.com/GoodBadR...
LinkedIn: www.linkedin.c...
#goodbadrugby #rugby #referee

[@biohayzer]

I was at that Leinster/ Connacht game and he did raise his frustrations on the pitch more than once and nothing was being done so it was always going to boil over into the post match interview. As a Leinster and Ireland fan I’m delighted he will be able to play in the 6 nations💪🏻

[@hjwatso1]

Haskell and his uninformed opinions are why I stopped watching the pod. I watched this because I respect Luke Pierce and found what he had to say very interesting. How can someone like Haskell not have a clue how the game works, especially at that level. This pod needs to get rid of him.

[@dai__36]

Tbf, he doesn’t know what a ruck is and the ref isn’t there to coach him ;)

[@hjwatso1]

@dai__36 I like the reference 🤣

[@npd6225]

Mate, no one is exempt from criticism. This also fuels the hatred to referees and officials… EVERYONE should be accountable, EVERYONE.

[@ZO150ZO]

@npd6225 well said

[@89hdjdua]

Luke Pearce is thoroughly impressive. Calm, thoughtful, respectful, analytical, reflective, balanced, articulate. A model of professionalism. He deserves a higher status and more influence in the management of rugby generally, I’d suggest.

[@dwm1943]

On Saturday, I saw a young referee in charge of a 3rd XV game in which the players towered over him, and might have intimidated him...but they didn't. A tick for the rugby ethos. Later I watched the KZbin video of a National League game. The ref was outstanding, and his audio feed was available, giving insight into the way good referees work with the players. Sunday morning I watched a teenager in control of an under 13 game. There were obvious faults with his refereeing - being in the same colours as one of the teams being one! - but it went okay, and in the afternoon I saw a feisty Colts game handled well by an experienced ref. Just a snapshot, but that's 4 out of 4. Our game is healthy, partly because of people like Luke Pearce who set standards and communicate so well. Parents of young players, who have come to rugby because their kid plays, are often in awe of our 'rugby values', so let's not knock them.

[@michaelcoombes2448]

I think Hask and Luke both made good points. A transparent accountability process for the referees would be good!

[@johnnyboy4711]

Where did Hansen abuse anyone,he called it as he seen it,it must have come from somewhere

[@stevenhanley5505]

Seems like they are all dancing around Hansen's main complaint which is that the bigger teams are getting all the calls. That's not being discussed at all. Why it happens and how to combat that should be part of the conversation surely?

[@yanikvanderveen8678]

Because we are more concerned with the refs feelings than the integrity of the game

[@nouri388]

Because the big teams don't get all the calls. I have not seen any biased refs in prof Rugby. If you want to see biased refs watch some lower level youth games or the lowest level senior games. Refs with bad performance in professional rugby yes. If a team wins people tend to say ohh the ref missed this or that they should have gotten penalized or carded it is unfair. When you look back at the match the ref is most of the time missing the same thing on the other side. Or the fouls are similar but with enough difference to treat it differently. Or we are talking about a escalation. I watch most games 2 times. first time for fun. The second time because as a referee I want to understand what the ref is doing.

[@ygnir1]

I'm a Leinster fan, the week after this match Gerry Thornley, who also is a Leinster fan, did an article in the Irish Times and showed the record Connacht have with penalties given and against then and it's ridiculous how hard refs have been against. It was an add on to an article he posted in 2022 where he raised an issue with penalties against Connacht Mack didn't raise his issue with Chris Busby specifically, he was talking in a general record against them

[@meninbike1602]

Very good points all around, also Leinster clearly enjoy the rub of the green in 99% games

[@markdavies9054]

How did Munster beat them last season or the Bulls or lions,Ulster or Toulouse.

[@meninbike1602]

@@markdavies9054 because it wasn't enough against those great teams

[@MrSpudatohead]

""99%" take a break mate

[@daddystu7046]

I watch age-grade every week. I've seen biased refs - usually they're the home teams coaches. They dont even hide it. I've never watched a professional game in my many decades where i thought the ref was biased. Bad ref performances sure but we all have bad days. If a ref consistently underperforms i'm sure their organisation will address that. They do have to pass a number of refereeing exams/assessments to get to international level. I'm sure they aim to get every decision right and that they have metrics to assess performance. They need our full support as fans and players. 30 guys going at each other with 1 guy keeping control - they deserve our respect aswell.

[@paulennis2996]

Well said... and if we don't hold professional players and coaches to the code of conduct every one of them sign, this type of negative critique will be replicated across the country and around the world. How will we try to ensure that Youths games have branch appointed referees if nobody is signing up and others are quitting. A home coach who will referee the way they coach and will always lead to a form of bias even if they try to referee fairly.

[@ManofMunster]

The bigger teams get the benefit of the doubt on big calls. Prior to Sonny Bill Williams’ red card against the Lions in 2017, it had been 50 years since an AB was sent off. There must have been some skulduggery that merited a sending off over that half century but refs gave ABs the benefit of the doubt. Richie McCaw lived offside for a decade. That 2011 WC final was handed to NZ because the ref wouldn’t penalise them. Big teams get big calls. That’s all Hansen was trying to say. I don’t see some pointless ‘Thought Police’ course fixing any of that.

[@gutcassidyandthesundancech5925]

A 6-game ban for Mac, while brutal head hunting hits receive the same level ban, is absolute hogwash.

[@jamesgiles9959]

Without the ref there’s no game communication to everyone is Key ! It’s a difficult job respect to all

[@loki_of_earth]

If Hansen had to referee a game of rugby at the level he plays it, I bet he would be LOST. He said what he said out of frustration, which is understandable, but it was bad form and unfair, at least say it when the ref's present to explain their decisions. Rugby is one of the most difficult games to ref and with their shananigans players often make it even harder. I think refs need to be accountable, but players should question decisions through the channels that have been setup for exactly that, rather than in public.

[@richardredmond1463]

The primary issue would not be the refs but whether a team like Leinster do or do not get the rub of the green in grey decisions. It would be worth the refs body time to review whether there is any truth in that. Maybe they have already done this, maybe not.

[@andrewtaylor9610]

A lot of people assuming that referees arent affected by the limits of human performance on this comments thread.

[@alphalunamare]

3:40 He wasn't attacking the then referee but a perceived trend in refereeing. A systemic problem not of any individual. The then referee was just the unfortunate one to be officiating when the pot boiled over. The psychology of a collective refereeing mindset that leads to such a trend is very difficult to analyse but it seems to be a reality. Thus 'someone' ought to review 'ALL' of the games under question and bring out the truth of the matter. I would suggest a retired referee whom is held in some respect. As for this program it seems to have missed the 'trend' of things in the original complaint, this program seems to be seeing it in the context of that one game, which is a mistake. There is clearly a 'Referee Complex' in the Connacht squad, is it justified? Only a review will provide the answer and lance this septic boil.

[@TrevorSmith-nm9mm]

He shouldn't have to apologise

[@dominic7015]

Personally don’t think there is anything wrong with venting online or at a press conference… just as long as during the match, the respect & discipline is maintained - no abusing of the ref etc.

[@gwynfrynevans6467]

I seem to be living in a parallel universe. I’m sure I heard Haskell use the word ‘intelligence.’

[@joshcook8206]

I play and i have had some shocking refs at times the only way to get any changes is to speak out. Weve had 4 refs that have ended up on courses to sort them out. Everyone can have a bad day at the office but there is unconscious bias that creeps in and addressing that needs to safe to do the bans a joke in all ways mack speaking his mind should be allowed.

[@johnnyboy4711]

Lads dogs in the street knew that Barrett on AKI was a tmo review at a minimum,wonder if it was the the other way around what would have been the decision?

[@christoduplessis8177]

I find it astounding that James Haskell still doesn't understand that the fury in South Africanafter theb1st BI Lions test wasn't the decisions, it was the way our captain Siya Kolisinwas spoken too. The amount of disrespect shown that day was terrible. That was the boiling point. Even Luke Pearce made mention of respecting the players. If it wasn't for that nothing would've come from it. See the bigger picture 🤦‍♂️

[@Randombourg]

Someone above mentioned getting Hanson to referee a few games. I think that's a great idea, a lot of players don't know all the laws and the nuances. Just think about how many stupid comments we hear from former players turned tv commentators. Commentators are usually so ignorant that they're basically cheerleaders. Even Brian Moore, a solicitor didn't learn the laws until 2010 even though he was one of the most objective commentators. The least "cheerleader like" as far as I can remember was Gordon Bray, he described what we all saw with knowledge and understatement, and he was a lower grades SRU (Sydney rugby union) ref so he could commentate afterwards on the 3pm match. As much as it hurts to consider, the level of hypocrisy in rugby is almost at the point where it could absolutely ruin the game by making a mockery of the characteristics that we hold dear

[@bunnychowmuncher]

When a player makes a mistake that is what the public generally sees. When the ref makes a mistake the a significant portion of the public thinks there is favouritsim, cheating or corruption going on and we forget about the likeliehood of a mistake. That is where we go wrong.

[@d.jparer5184]

No some referees make understandable mistakes like nick berry, others make unforgivable mistakes like Andrew brace. Some mistakes are around interpretations of the law, others are around doing your job badly. It's clear that most rugby fans can tell the difference...

[@bunnychowmuncher]

@@d.jparer5184 If a ref is going to cheat he will be smart about it and not make it obvious so sorry you won't be able to tell the difference. Bookies would likely involve a player too or just a player and not a ref to give the ref a reason to award the penalty like they do in cricket with spot fixing. Please use your head.

[@d.jparer5184]

@@bunnychowmuncher that second sentence didn't make sense try again, please use your head.

[@bunnychowmuncher]

@@d.jparer5184 I should have broken it up into two replies. I had a suspicion that two sentences in a row would be too much for you.

[@bunnychowmuncher]

@ "Bookies would likely involve a player too or just a player and not a ref" Ok simple Simon - Bookies will either involve a ref or and/or a player (only). We were already talking about refs so "player too" is an inclusive addition.

[@iangrubb6470]

Social media has become the problem. So many armchair refs who wouldn't go on a course to show that they know better. 4 men against 30 on the pitch and thousands watching. The game has always been about respect. The Last 20 years or so that's declined so much. Winning has become more important than enjoying the game.

[@MichelleK-v7r]

I hold the coach equally responsible. He sat there like a toad and failed to protect his team and player. If he knew Mack was hit, he could have asked him to sit it out. Or stand up and ask for a 10 minute pause in the press conference to go out and let Mack catch a breath. I am not saying what Mack did was correct, just that the coach is equally to blame.

[@DougLyons-d8t]

Does one ever hear a ref critique a player in public?

[@cestrian5294]

Didn't see the game, but we were taught at school that the ref is always correct even if he isn't. TV replays help now on decisions but, at my local rugby club last week, we scored a try but the ref didn't give it because he said he didn't actually see the grounding. At our level, there's no TV, so the lads just got on with it. Abusing officials is the beginning of the end, we'll be like Soccer soon. No Refs, no game.

[@poo2764]

Oh you Brits make me laugh, the game last night between Leinster and Bath, the commentators covering the game all said the ref got the red card wrong! Bloody Nora Obono got a yellow card, in my mind it could have been red the ref warned Obono before red card, he had 6 penalties against him In my mind the Bath manager should have taken him off I could see the red card coming, especially after the ref warned him????????????? come on wake up try not to be so bias.

[@ianjames3078]

Rubbish spouted by Haskell. Referees are accountable, the moment it is allowed to be public the supports join in and it turns into football. Their performance is totally assessed and appointed on merit. Players concentrate on yourself. Agree with Luke and I’m a player/supporter not a referee.

[@takeitdown-y4r]

The thing everyone seems to have missed is Prendergast having a cut off the ref for going back and reviewing something that turned out to be completely valid, yet Prendergast tried to accuse him of pandering to the opposition and fans, then you have another C player coming out and calling out the officiating, if anything the Connacht teem needs to be held accountable for that behaviour for the whole game, absolutely bollocks

[@bunnychowmuncher]

In my opinion, Hansen should have been more responsible and should have just gone through official channels and followed protocol and have a 1:1 conversation with the ref hwere both can learn and understand each other. Hansen is fuelling people out on the fringe and the trolls who may believe there is corruption and now feel they have support from Hansen and this leads to refs being abused and threatened.

[@Natedawg38]

Back the Mack.

[@robertoriordan4083]

Contempt comes in slow and if is allowed to stay then it will stay forever, The governing body needs to step down on these incidents before it becomes the norm

[@rodneylowe9526]

Haskell completely misses the point here. He talks about accountability for a referee making a mistake, but Hansen was sat accusing the referees, as a number, of conspiring against them. These are completely different scenarios. As Luke says referees will make a mistake and can be held accountable, but calling corruption is a different level.

[@TommyCat4]

Protection for the Refs is paramount. The issues we face today can largely be blamed on the knit picking done by the TMO's where predantics have killed the way a game is controlled. You might say why the TMO? well many a time due to camera angles we come to conclusions, where calls are rightly or wrongly made that are not conclusive. (As a videographer the angles can be very deceptive) The DRS in cricket is far better managed. I also find the amount of cards dished out is destroying the game. This begs the question, are these cards having the desired effect

[@bejaysus7388]

I think with all the training officiating teams get, they're highly trained people & with the advantage of having trained TMO people with multiple cameras running at every game & have the opportunity to run reviews & see foul play etc, notify the ref & rectify if necessary. There shouldn't be as many mistakes in the modern game from the officiating team in games as there is.

[@stuartedwards8188]

If this is an issue, then stop having press conferences or stop asking questions at press conferences if players can’t give their honest opinion. At no point did Hansen personally attack the referee, he wasn’t abusive or over the top. TV pundits, journalists and podcasters alike, analyse, praise and critique player’s match day performances yet there’s no comeback. Luke talks about the referees having no right to reply, but players don’t either if they are being critiqued on the sidelines.

[@almaslabber5587]

the tattoo dude is clueless

[@heyeksay]

Consistency …

[@fiver9647]

As a (former) Worcester Warriors fan, I can remember Dean Ryan blowing the lid on the (confidential) league table of incorrect referee decisions. One of those decisions occurred in a match refereed by a young Luke Pearce. The first half was Bath getting pinged. The second half was the complete opposite. The fans couldn't understand how such a change could occur. The game ended with an PRL/RFU apology after a last minute penalty awarded to Bath in front of the posts. Luke even claimed afterwards he had no idea why he gave the penalty. This was one of several games, with different referees, where similar outcomes occurred, and PRL/RFU apologies made no consolation. If fans are to believe the game is honest and fair, we need people like Mack Hansen (or Dean Ryan) to air their frustrations. We need some scrutiny otherwise there will always be questions over the validity of the sport. I know the old quote that it all evens itself out over the season, but the facts (if you're allowed to see them), don't back this up. The teams at the bottom always get the smelly end of the stick. As far as I know, (almost) every scrum and breakdown has players from both sides transgressing. As a referee, how do you make this fair and even in awarding penalties?

[@paulcole]

If you don’t want players and fans calling out refs - the refs need to be better. Ben o’keefe has been an absolute disgrace today.. Rugby is about respect but if the refs are so abysmal week in week out, then you can’t expect people to just take it

[@noelpucarua2843]

Did the referee have to do a course or get a ban?

[@markdavies9054]

How about referees being able to make their opinions of coaches and players known in a press conference after the game.Some say refs think they are the stars of the game,this is not true.However on match days if two coaches are missing or two player go awol,the games go on,if two officials fail to turn up,game off.

[@ikejames3003]

I haven't read the comments above, and was just thinking after listening to this episode, I know it has been brought up before and declined, but is it not worth considering the white card process again? Similar to cricket and asking the tmo to review a decision. And each team having a limited amount of reviews. This speaks to my second point where refs are taken out individually for calls seen to be arguably incorrect. Why not structure it in a way where it is not seen as the individual, but more of a collective being the ref, linesman and tmo. They should be evaluated within as a collective and not as an individual. My very brief thoughts that I am sure would require alot of thought to be able to implement in reality.

[@TheNWaite]

Wasn't the penalty count at games end Leinster 16 - Connacht 15 ? Sort of neutralises Hansen's argument I would have thought. Yet another Aussie digging himself a large hole (and fwiw - I am an Aussie) .

[@DermotLehane]

The inept referees will coach him how to be an inept referee.

[@yogamoshi567]

Hair transplant Hask looks like Gareth Anscombe on T.

[@usarugbyleagueunionfan]

I’ll buy that.

[@MrJudgementday99]

Hmmmn. I hear what everyone says, but we all know that now as in the past referees have favoured sides. The best example being Richie Macaw, who not only lived offside but was a nasty player, who if he could cheat would cheat, just because he could. At that stage referees would never penalise NZ. The same goes now for the likes of Leinster or Ireland. To claim that referees are held accountable is a bit weird, if they are then why do certain side always get the benefit? If the referee was held accountable then the bias would stop, but it doesn’t. It is an easy thing to prove with stats, but no-one does because rugby doesn’t want to be seen in the same light as football. The trouble with that is that there has always been a bias towards the top team club and country and without really addressing it then there will always be a bias towards the top teams.

[@Luckaby]

Gamesmanship is the biggest lroblem in slirt - players trying to cheat and bend and weedle the rules will cause referees to lose focus on the core parts of the game as they ar forced to become so fixated with these small issues thry end up missing bigger things. If all players were 100% hinest in the way, they played sport this kimd of th8ng would not happen!

[@anthonyryan30]

Hansen is correct. Supposedly weaker teams get ridden by refs. More penalties will be given against Italy than any other team in the upcoming 6 nations. In the last World Cup Wales were handed the win over Fiji. It’s just the way things go.

[@Snags-sy8is]

Bollox

[@Just_Another_John]

I dont agree with that at all, being a better player, being better coached, having a bigger pool of players, having more rugby nous all factor in to your argument, we dont get decisions etc, might actually be on the team, the way they speak to refs, their body language when speaking to a ref etc You could hear the frustration in Mack Hansen's voice, but there are ways and means to do this, same with Rassie ways and means.

[@anthonyryan30]

@@Just_Another_John you have a point to a degree, Richie McCaw and the Ireland - Fiji match in November are examples. However - and I’m coming at this from the POV of being a active ref here in south Munster - perceived lesser teams never get the benefit of the doubt and come out worse in the major decisions. It’s always visible in scrum decisions where there are a half dozen penalty offences in every scrum. That Wales - Fiji match in the World Cup was a prime example of Wales getting every 50/50 decision.

[@bunnychowmuncher]

No - fuelling the public with "reason" is why refs get abused and get threatened. Guys like Steve and Mack Hansen need to be more responsible.

[@RoddyPaul]

Scotland seem to give away a lot of penalties, and as (we) they have to be at their best to win big games this is an Achilles heel.

[@josht7385]

Busby is soft.

[@davidfife-nm7uy]

They have to be accountable. Captains and coaches should be allowed to have their say. As long as it’s not racist or threatening

[@tomdawson5281]

But as Luke says, they should be able to have their say after

[@davidwalker2402]

I don’t think referees believe how much they affect fans lives who invest a lot into supporting their teams. Luke Pearce refereed a game between Ireland and SA and it was incredibly one sided in favour of the home side SA , Craig Casey was almost killed and he stood by and did nothing. He still referees today , but he was so far off it that day.

[@davidwalker2402]

@ so the people that support the sport spend there hard earned cash to keep clubs and referees in the game don’t deserve to be part of knowing what goes on what mistakes were made etc, just let them continue to argue without any resolution . Are you a referee

[@readesiun988]

@@davidwalker2402 Yes, that was extremely bad

[@ianjames3078]

They get their chances through proper channels. We don’t want it in public, it’s rugby not football

[@akashaef1]

Hansen is crybaby. Pathetic tantrum, and has gotten off light, much like aggressive and cursing Sexton did. Have a look at yourself Ireland!

[@bernardtynan1725]

2 players you mention and the whole country is accountable?

[@Nieljoyceniel]

@@bernardtynan1725average England fan for you

[@jonathanmaguire1198]

Hansen should not have apologised. If referees can’t get basic calls right they shouldn’t be there.

[@bunnychowmuncher]

So if a player knocks a ball on he needs to get death threats and abuse? Everyone makes basic mistakes - Hansen had no reason to fuel the public when he can clearly sort it out behind closed doors through processes that already exist. He did act like a petulant child who could not get his bag of sweets at the Supermarket.

[@ZO150ZO]

don't worry Luke you're not the only one who has a difficult job in the world

[@SingularSuperNinja]

Pearce said a whole lot of nothing. Repeating "we are held accoutable" without ever expalining how. Accountability includes consequences where appropriate. Saying that a player can have a bad game and be chosen next week is a foolish point with no substance. I would advocate a ref having a bad day also getting to go again next week. But utter incompetence is grounds for dimissal in any other work place. There need to be actual meaningful consequences to being bad at your job. Furthermore, to say that players speakinf of it invites more attacks is perhaps true but he acknowledged in the same breath that it's a choice to be on social media. Responsibility shouldnt be regressed like this. It is not your fault for being abused because you use social media and likewise it is not a player's fault that a fan abused you. None of what he said holds up to any kind of scutiny in my opinion. I always found Pearce a poor ref who I thought has been improving over last year or so, but his comments here certainly lead me to believe that regardless of his refereeing abilities, he is a fool if he continues to hold this position he put forward here.

[@loki_of_earth]

I heard the complete opposite, he made solid, coherent points. Have a look at the quality of officiating now compared with just 10 years ago, it is hugely better now. I want to see the game have a good pool of quality refs and criticizing them post-game works against that. Besides, ref bashing is a weak man's excuse for their team losing.

[@d.jparer5184]

Tbh i have no sympathy for refs. The majority of them are awful and are completely protected from the slightest amount of public criticism. They never seem to be held accountable either. We are experiencing a crisis of refereeing atm and nobody is really talking about it. This WILL kill our game if we dont fix it but first we have to get past the 50% of fans who will rabidly protect awful refs in the name of "rugby values", whatever that means. We didnt have this problem 10-15 years ago which should tell you everything you need to know about where exactly our game is headed.

[@juanpbotha]

Luke Pearce is inconsistent in the application of laws and appears as biased

[@David-h1f4r]

This presenter is pathetic , the refs are pathetic and weak , pearse is a broadcasters ref , poosing pounce ,