Reference Recording: Mahler's 8th Symphony

[@jgesselberty]

Have the Solti recording, but always find myself returning to the first Bernstein recording for a satisfying experience.

[@Kyle-ur4mr]

Finster is a fitting name for a cat that hangs out by the Fenster all day 😂

[@edwardcasper5231]

I saw the live performances of the 8th In the Chicago Lyric Opera House that preceded the recording - which was done in Vienna on the Chicago orchestra's European tour. It was a long program because Solti also programmed Beethoven's Emperor Concerto with Vladimir Ashkenazi.

[@HassoBenSoba]

Having started collecting records (and Mahler) during the mid-late 60's, I recall the huge impression that the Bernstein/LSO recording made on the musical world. Not only was it part of his landmark, much heralded Mahler cycle, but it decisively established the standard "model" for this symphony (in 1966..that is, 5 years before Solti, Haitink, Kubelik and Morris began to appear), and immediately swept all competition into the shadows. Being an "underdog" guy, I liked and championed the pioneering Abravanel ('64, I think) but, confronted with reality, I realized the Bernstein absolutely blew it away. And it was recognized and praised as such by the industry; I recall the excitement in the review magazines,the Schwann catalogue ads, and the featured airings and discussions on (Chicago) radio. So the Bernstein/LSO easily meets all 3 major criteria as listed by Dave Hurwitz in another episode: 1) It had a huge impact on the industry when it was released 2.) it had, essentially, the market to itself, and 3.) the performance is/was fabulous. LR

[@henriknielsen8305]

Love this channel and I appreciate what you do.

[@fred6904]

I am imprinted on Kubelik, but now I find Bernstein to be the one who delivers the best experience.

[@antonioantonio-no2uc]

David, in my opinion, the three best recordings: Ozawa, Solti and Kubelik. Thans, you are fantastic!

[@rogermilne8563]

I imprinted on Solti and still go back to it as first choice. The 8th was the work that got me into Mahler in the first place.

[@bloodgrss]

I want to share a small tribute here to the great choral director on this recording, Margaret Hillis. I had the privilege to sing (bad as I was in certain notes) in Berlioz's The Childhood of Christ at Northwestern University back in the day. Hired by Fritz Reiner, and training with Robert Shaw, she was a force for great singing ensembles for many years in the Chicago area. Also, apropos of Mahler's 8th, hope it is appropriate to share this story: "Sir Georg Solti had programmed Mahler’s Eighth Symphony for the fall of 1977, with three performances in Chicago followed by one at Carnegie Hall. After the first two concerts at Orchestra Hall, early on Saturday, October 29, Sir Georg sprained his right wrist and pulled several muscles in his back, neck, and shoulders when he tripped while exiting an elevator. Chorus director Margaret Hillis arrived at Orchestra Hall later that afternoon and was asked by general manager John Edwards and artistic administrator Peter Jonas to conduct that evening’s performance with less than three hours’ notice; she respectfully declined. Edwards then asked Hillis to lead Monday evening’s performance at Carnegie Hall, and she accepted. The Saturday Chicago concert was canceled. On Sunday afternoon, Hillis visited Solti in the hospital to discuss details of the symphony and continued analyzing the score on the plane to New York that evening. On Monday, October 31, with no opportunity to rehearse with the Orchestra and soloists and little more than an hour with the Chorus, she was quoted as saying, “Look, don’t try to help me do my job. Your job is to sing and play, mine is to keep the whole shooting match together.” She returned to her hotel room for about ninety minutes of more study and then an hour’s rest before the concert. When Julius Bloom, director of Carnegie Hall, announced from the stage that Solti would not be conducting that evening’s concert, the audience was clearly disappointed by the news. But on Tuesday, Miss Hillis’s triumph was front-page news in The New York Times. Donal Henahan wrote: “Miss Hillis built her performance carefully, but she built it well. What her Mahler Eighth sometimes lacked in ‘Soltian’ fire and tension, it made up for in poise, clarity, and ethereal detail. By the last ecstatic pages she had her forces working for her and Mahler with a burning enthusiasm that radiated a fine glow over the Faustian finale.” I heard one of the Chicago performances, my first live Mahler! Tho' you would have been a teen Dave, perhaps you might have heard Ms. Hillis at Carnegie Hall?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I didn't, but I remember reading the article containing the above story.

[@hendriphile]

Having had the opportunity to attend two live performances by Solti in Chicago (the first one at the Auditorium Theater, then a few years later at Orchestra Hall), I can testify that the heavy percussion at the very end was ~ audible, but almost completely drowned out by the brass. So the recording, at least in this very limited sense, didn’t misrepresent the actual event.

[@josefkrenshaw179]

Like the Bohm Bruckner 4, this is part of that first "Decca 50" box. The eighth was the most "elusive" of all Mahler's works for me. I had to look at it as a transition from Mahler's big three middle orchestral symphonies and his last period. It made more sense as a stepping stone from the seventh to "Erde:".

[@neiltheblaze]

One recording that I thought was really good was Vaclav Neumann and the Czech Philharmonic. I particularly liked the vocal soloists. I've never heard it mentioned when people talk about the Eighth, so I can only imagine the cognoscenti don't particularly care for it - but I think it's a fantastic performance and rather sadly overlooked.

[@HassoBenSoba]

While Neumann seems bored through a lot of the quieter passages, his handling of the big stuff is, IMO, unequaled. The latter half of the 1st mvt (the central recap/climax and the ending) is splendid: powerful, thrilling, with a delineation of the choral/orchestral textures that has never been bettered. And that unique sound of the Czech choruses could never have been matched by any other group on the planet. Anyone who has never heard this performance should check it out. LR

[@liquidviews]

The Solti is amazing... probably my reference recording as well. So sorry, can't argue with you here.

[@MichaelCattermole]

An enjoyable aspect in deciding upon a recording of Mahler's 8th is to discover who the participant soloists are, because nearly all the recordings have magnificent rosters of singing soloists - almost without exception. Kubelik's was my first 8th, and I remain loyal to it because of the wonderful cast of singers (many of whom are real Lieder-singing stalwarts), and the admittedly rather small-scale nature of the music-making - this is allied to the "refined" recording techniques adopted, and so altogether a refreshingly alternative take on the piece, I feel. However, on balance Bernstein's cosmic CBS/Sony is still the one I go to most often, even when allowing for the technical shortcomings (are they really that bad when the musical rewards are so great?). I'm also pleased to have Solti's reference recording sitting on the shelve, though I too have reservations about it, as noted elsewhere by others. Good to see Finster and Mildred back on the scene!

[@richardcarnes2834]

Clearly Mildred and Finster need their own KZbin channel at this point. :)

[@michaelpdawson]

Ozawa's 8th is great; I especially love his luminous and spooky take on the instrumental opening of the second movement. Kubelik was my first imprint.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Ozawa's is another light and quick, small-scale version. It came as a big disappointment after the Gurrelieder.

[@robhaynes4410]

​@@DavesClassicalGuide It's a bit underplayed, unfortunately. Since it was his first recording in his Mahler cycle for Philips, it seemed like it set the tone for the critical response to the rest of his Mahler, which is unfortunate. Some wonderful stuff in there. And his DG Mahler 1 is my personal favorite.

[@bbailey7818]

​@DavesClassicalGuide The Ozawa Gurrelieder is wonderful, but surely the reference is Chailly/Decca. But I won't bet the farm on it. One great thing about the Kubelik is the speaker for the sprechstimme bit is the most accurate of any of the seven or so I have; though the Hotter is the most evocative.

[@uh1066hastings]

Resolving to collect these reference recordings has been great for my musical knowledge, but not so good for my pocketbook 😂

[@danielkravetz6772]

Solti recorded Mahler 8 in Vienna at the Sofiensaal August 30 and 31 and September 1, 1971. It was the first stop on the CSO's European tour, but they didn't play a concert in Vienna until September 25 and 26, without Mahler 8. I was at Stanford's Vienna campus from March to September 1971 and, coincidentally attended a concert of Mahler 8 at the Konzerthaus on August 28, produced by the American Choral Directors' Association with the Bratislava Radio Orchestra conducted by Guenther Theuring. I was aware that the recording was about to happen, and have suspected that there might have been some connection between the chorus at the concert and that used in the recording a few days later.

[@michorg]

Also, I’ve always wondered whether it might have been the Konzerthaus organ that was dubbed into the Solti recording. I’ve never found any information as to the instrument that was used.

[@OuterGalaxyLounge]

Finster's and Mildred's physiques align with their relative motivation toward food. Anyway, thanks for the explanation. I think this is one of those cases where everyone agrees it's a reference recording but relatively few call it their favorite or preferred one.

[@murraylow4523]

Very true

[@robhaynes4410]

I *love* Nagano's Mahler 8. One of his finest recordings. He's another conductor who, like Solti, was better as a "traffic cop."

[@davidmayhew8083]

Had Solti's in the day and Bernstein's. Interesting comparison. Be that as it may, I just want to say this; In defense of Solti and the Chicago orchestra, I will never forget them doing Mahler's 5th at the SF Opera House. If one wanted a reference performances of that, this was it. Solti's way with Mahler was lucid, razor sharp and big boned. The audience gasped at the end of the first and 2nd movement. Lengthy cheers at the end. I've heard the 5th a handful of times and for my money Solti was vastly better. I knew Mahler's music very well but the Solti gave me a completely different feeling for this music. As for recordings, I was never very game for his versions. Your assessment of the 8th is right on. The finale is a let down. But the first movement absolutely magnificent.

[@cspiegs1]

Hi Dave. I'm happy to have this reference recording. But as the 1997 MHS, I wonder if it's sonically inferior to the Decca version. And per your separate review of the Mahler 8th with Solti, a remastered version was released 2 years later with improved sonics (does the MHS version have this remastering). Being a Mahler fanatic, I have both Bernstein sets on lp (the earlier being the Columbia limited edition set) and CD, Solti's set on lp (Decca) and the Ozawa/BSO set on CD, plus several individually recorded sets including the previously mentioned MHS CD.

[@antoniocristodoro475]

Caro Dave, grazie dei preziosi consigli di ascolto. Ascolterò Solti. Adoro Mahler ma forse l'ottava è la sinfonia di Mahler che amo meno.

[@edwinbelete76]

Great talk. On another note, I’d like to hear your thoughts on the reference recording of Ravel’s piano concerto. I’m sure I know what it is but I’ll leave the rest to you.😊 Thanks!

[@davidaiken1061]

Despite the many virtues of the Solti recording, which justify its reference status, I have never responded to it. Comparing it with Bernstein/Sony (my personal reference) is instructive. Bernstein exalts the listener; Solti manipulates. I actually prefer some of Solti's other Mahler recordings, particularly the central trilogy without voices--5, 6 and 7. The thrills may be superficial but there's no denying them. But somehow the Eighth, in part due to its evocation of the Transcendent, must edify as it thrills.

[@richardtomasek]

Solti's finest Mahler and an 8th for the ages. A friend and mentor was on that tour as an extra trumpet (if someone in the section could not perform) and has fond memories of that tour. He is not on this record.

[@stevemcclue5759]

I imprinted on Solti's Mahler 8 - it was my first experience of the piece, and of course, it was mindblowing. Then Tennstedt's very different version came out and i realised that M8 didn't have to be a slam -bang affair. As you say, Bertini's is an absolutely first-rate performance, but not the reference. Incidentally, I'm sure you know this Dave, but no cat will ever thank you for being hoicked off the ground by its oxters. You need to support the hind legs, too. They'll be grateful (just before they scratch your face off). 😸

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Yes, I know that, but it depends on the cat. Finster doesn't care. Mildred does but only because it gives her leverage to jump away.

[@iankemp1131]

Finster in true cat fashion refusing to cooperate by looking at the camera or staying on screen

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Naturally.

[@simonkawasaki4229]

This is completely off-topic, but did you manage to listen to that new recording of Strauss's Josephslegende on Naxos? I would be interested to hear your thoughts!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

No, I haven't.

[@maximisaev6974]

Very cogently argued Dave, especially when you consider what were the choices back in 1971. It's still a fine recording to my ears, even if it sounds a bit hard driven in places. Even so, nobody could argue with its "Reference Status." Dave: You're doing a magnificent service to music appreciation, especially as it applies to our younger listeners out there. Efforts like yours certainly keep Classical Music appreciation from sliding into undeserved neglect. Thank you!

[@ANF97]

For brass playing, there really is no alternative. I do wish the production was more refined to capture the massive sound coming from that orchestra.

[@bluetortilla]

I know I'm going off-topic, but as a huge Mahler fan, I never got the 8th, and have never enjoyed it. Can you (or have you already done) a post on the 8h and what it's all about? My cat (a small American short hair) is named Benjamin (not Benji!).

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Yes I have. Have a look at the Mahler playlist.

[@ianng9915]

I agree with your point. Even today it's a good bang for bucks recording, considering CSO brass nonetheless 😂

[@tip3y592]

Can Wit's 8th be the new reference recording?

[@MDK2_Radio]

It has to reach that consensus level. I personally go for that one too but it takes a bunch of us to make it so and it takes time.

[@sandy44440]

​@@MDK2_Radio I think a case could be made for Tennstedt's studio recording being the reference for later generations

[@jameslee2943]

@@sandy44440 Yes. I have vague memories that the Aquatic Flightless Bird Guide used to recommend both Solti and Tennstedt more or less equally.

[@FlaneurSolitaire]

Aww. Come for the music, stay for the cat content.

[@martinhaub6828]

"Over produced" is putting it mildly. It is all but unlistenable with headphones. It may be the reference version, but I'll stick with Kubelik; I like zippy.

[@tenorette2003]

And he's got the best soloists 😊

[@MorganHayes_Composer.Pianist]

i'm with you on the Kubelik. It;s got a lovely freshness about it.

[@dmntuba]

How about a Wynn Morris retrospective 😮

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Not anytime soon.

[@mikeleghorn6092]

I don’t like how the solo tenor (is it Rene Kollo?) sounds like he’s singing in a cave, far away and off to one side.

[@morrigambist]

Rumor has it that his part was dubbed in after the fact.

[@sandy44440]

Yeah, this is the reference and yeah it kind of sucks - not least because of the terrible recording. I remember how bitterly disappointed I was when I first got this just after it came out on CD.

[@chrisgately4358]

Orange cats are the best!

[@michaelcleaver5311]

Wrong! Black cats are the best!

[@bbailey7818]

When I first discovered Mahler in the late 60s, I was on a limited student budget and forced to select low price recordings as much as possible. I pored over the reviews (mostly High Fidelity and Stereo Review) before buying. But with the 8th, the then new and very full price Solti had to be the choice. I heard the Abravanel (he was my very satisfying choice for No.2) only a couple of years ago. My problem with that one is the soloists. They are uniformly terrible.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

No, they aren't.

[@CortJohnson]

Nice to see Solti nab one! 😎

[@mattbalfe2983]

I feel like Mahler 8 recordings are hard to record and getting a great recording engineer is more important than for most pieces. I love Bernstein's NYC phil interpretation and it surely was a great performance, but I find the recording unlistenable.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

There is no Bernstein NY Phil version of the complete symphony.

[@mattbalfe2983]

@@DavesClassicalGuide Your right, it's with the LSO, it's snuck into the Carnegie Hall Bernstein Mahler box, which I just assumed was NY Phil.

[@Lamprocles221]

Give it a few years and Wits recording will supplant the Solti.